WEBVTT - Space Warfare, with Paul Szymanski 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:07.080 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:14.800 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.200 name is Robert Lamb. Joe's out today, so I'm going 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.960 to present an interview here with Paul Samansky, co author 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.560 with Jerry Drew of the new book The Battle Beyond 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:29.280 Fighting and Winning the Coming War in Space. Paul Smansky 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:31.680 has forty nine years of experience in all fields related 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:37.320 to space control, policy, strategy, simulation, surveillance, survivability, threat assessment, 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.519 long range strategic planning, and command and control. I do 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.560 want to advise listeners that this one gets a little 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:50.040 more into topics of contemporary and near future warfare. I 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:52.240 realize that is not everyone's cup of tea, so just 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.560 fair warning about that. But without further ado, let's get 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:03.560 right into this fascinating chat. Well, Paul, welcome to the show. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.600 The new book is The Battle Beyond Fighting and Winning 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.640 the Coming War in Space, co authored with Jerry Drew. 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.080 It's a detailed breakdown of the emerging technologies and ideas 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.880 that are going to define war and warfare in space. 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.560 And you've certainly a great deal of expertise in this field. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.319 How did you become interested in outer space and how 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.240 did your career end up moving into this domain of 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:27.720 space systems and space warfare. 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.000 Well, first of all, I actually have six books out. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:36.360 They all begin with the title you know that you mentioned, 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.800 and then there's various details. One is about how to 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.240 fight and win space wars. Another one is on sun Zoo, 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:50.880 the ancient Chinese philosopher translated from two thousand years ago 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:55.680 to space. I always liked the bigger picture thought, and 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.440 so I've always worked at think tanks, you know, not 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:04.800 for fit semi government kinds of things. And the first 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.400 thing tank I worked at decades ago, I had the 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:14.640 option of either working nuclear war or space war. And 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.240 for a space war, you know, sounds like the what 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.480 do you call it? Star wars and sort of thing 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:22.959 you know from when I was growing up. So is 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.160 that sounds cooler? I guess I'll go that way. So 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.040 it was almost a random sequence of events. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.200 Let's say the book does a great job of breaking 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.440 down a lot of the core concepts, you know, forcing 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.800 the reader to re examine basics that a lot of us, 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.880 especially general science faders like myself, probably take for granted. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.679 So getting down to brass tax as they say, could 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.359 you remind the listeners what we're talking about when we're 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.120 talking about the space domain from a military perspective. 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.799 Well, one thing, and you know, I'm on I've been 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.840 on the board of directors of Air Force Research Lab 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.400 with you know, retired general officers and vice admirals, and 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.000 one was an astronaut who has been up in space 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:08.040 five times, you know, and none of them understand how 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.399 to fight space wars. Really comes down to it when 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.279 you really think about it, You're not attacking a satellite, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.320 You're attacking the mission. Oh, this satellite's providing imagery for 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.200 the battlefield. We're about to do a sneak attack. We 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.400 better take out the guy's imagery, you know, So you 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.720 need to take out the mission. Oh, by the way, 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.880 the commander in the particular theater is going to say, 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:38.240 deny the adversary imagery of the battlefield over these latitude 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:43.440 launch coronets and resolution over the next seventy two hours. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.160 You know, you figure out how to do it within 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.920 the laws of armed conflict. So you not only have 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.040 to take out that satellite, you have to take out 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.760 the drones you know, doing the same mission, or the 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.880 guy on a camel with binoculars, So you have to 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.840 think that bigger picture. And you know, the guys I've 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:07.160 worked with, they love the technology. We love the technology 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.080 in this country. But the whole point of war, and 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.360 even the ancient Greeks understood this two thousand years ago. 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.560 The whole point of war is make the other side 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.960 change their mind, you know. So getting back to you're 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.080 not attacking the satelle attacking the mission, and you're not 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.719 even really attacking the mission. You're attacking the mind of 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:31.920 the adversary commander who's using that imagery information. So you know, 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.680 it's kind of information warfare, whatever you want to call it. 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.400 And that's kind of hard to figure. Like, you know, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.080 how do you model human mind? Did he get this 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.320 information or not? Did he attack left or right? You know, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.080 if you had like an extra one hundred million dollars 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.960 some fiscal year and he said, well, gee, should I 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.279 buy one of these fancy new space weapons that we've 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.320 never tried before? Or should I re equip an army 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.480 brigade with newer tanks or something like that. Now, Okay, 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.719 there's politics and this and that, but really, what is 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.920 going to make the war end sooner? With fewer casualties, 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.120 I guess, or get your point across, you know. And 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.200 so the army they're very used to, you know, they 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.640 invented what's called operations research, so they're very used to 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.479 figuring that out, Like, well, if we take out this bridge, 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.440 it'll take them twelve hours to get bridge laying equipment, 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.920 and so we delay the forces, you know, maybe fourteen hours, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:37.440 and we can calculate in general the war ends two 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.000 days early and there's you know, three percent fewer casually 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.240 something like that. I mean, something you could kind of say, 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.880 is that worth a hundred million maybe? You know, but 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:50.359 if you could say, oh, this crusty old general in 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.679 I don't know, North Korea or something like that, who 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:58.760 doesn't really believe in space, and you know, even if 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.599 he gets information from it, he's going to do what 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.359 he's going to do. He's mind to set. And so 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.840 is it worth one hundred million dollars for that space 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.680 weapon program to deny something he doesn't care about anyway? 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:13.960 You know, I'm being a wise guy here at this, 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.279 of course. You know. Let me tell you something a 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.359 very wise guy, and that is what is the biggest 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:26.240 threat from space, and that is something called fobs fractional 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:32.080 orbital bombardment system and that's something that the Russians invented 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.120 in the nineteen sixties. And you know, instead of sending 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:41.080 nuclear icbm's north you know, North Pole, they sent they 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.520 put it into space, the rocket and it comes from 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.279 the south and avoids American radars and all that stuff, 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.440 you know. And it was like two three years ago 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.360 the State Department or military I forget who said, well, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.400 you know, China has fobs now the fractional orbital bombardments system, 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:05.880 And I'm thinking, okay, you have to again think the 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:06.600 bigger picture. 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:08.760 So we. 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.720 If I don't know if any of our listeners have 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.440 heard of Mayhan the control of the sea. You know, 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.440 several hundred years ago you're saying about you know, great 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.680 Britain and controlling say, well, no one's that. I've been 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.840 able to control really the seas, you know, great Britain, Oh, 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.760 the English Channel, maybe the Mediterranean, maybe around Hong Kong 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.360 and India. I've been and all that. But let's theorize 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:37.800 and going back to Mayhean, the US is a sea power, 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.080 it is not a land power. Good luck marching one 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:46.080 hundred thousand soldiers across the Atlantic ocean to defend Europe, 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:51.120 and we've gotten kind of arrogant that, oh, we're just 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.000 going to do all these wars around the world and 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.960 they'll never affect us because we got these oceans, the barriers, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.880 and no one could send landing craft that far, you know, 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.560 and all that, and so we you know, we can 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.880 get away with a lot. Let's say, now, let's theorize. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.280 Let's say you take you know, I'm being facetious here, 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:15.080 but two tons of concrete in space and you drop 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.280 an all eleven American aircraft carriers around the world within 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:24.520 forty minutes it comes down mock, I think twenty four 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:29.440 Anything coming from space comes that fast, three times hotter 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.319 than the surface of the Sun. It holds the carrier. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:39.040 There's gonna be you know, gleaming orange, jagged metal. It's 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.439 gonna hit the ocean, the cold ocean, and a huge 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.400 steam explosion. The think sinks in a matter of minutes. 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.800 Now I'm talking about nineteen sixties technology in order to 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:55.200 achieve this. And oh, by the way, some reason we 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.520 screwed up and we don't have hypersonic weapons, but the 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.480 Russian have been merrily using them in Ukraine, taking out 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:10.040 command centers four hundred feet underground, and China the only 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:15.480 reason they develop their own hypersonic weapons is, oh, guess what, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:21.440 take out American aircraft carriers. Because it's a point target thing. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.719 You know, if you use it on the ground and 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.679 forces attacking on the ground, oh maybe kill fifty hundred 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.720 people whatever, But you know, take out command centers aircraft carriers. 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.920 So I guess what I'm emphasizing is you better control 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.920 space or you suddenly become a second rate power. What 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.240 can we do if we no longer have our aircraft carriers, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.760 we no longer control the sea. Let's say China controls 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.560 the sea. They you know, all that oil in the 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.040 Middle East is worthless if you can't ship it out, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.640 And so China starts charging transit fees, you know, anti 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.000 piracy fees or something. If you don't pay it, we'll 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.800 sink your ship too. You know, it's real easy nineteen 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.320 sixties technology. You know, we're not actually talking about the future. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.640 It could happen tonight. So China, you know, essentially controls 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.040 the world. Seems to me, I mean this theoretical, but 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.520 I don't I can't think of any holes in that 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.000 at the moment, and I actually I'm writing a novel, 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:25.959 a seventh book, and that it will be out in 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.800 a few months. So okay, that's something to worry about. Now, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:34.920 getting back to the the domain of space, everyone I 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.160 know keeps in the space force, and you know this 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.800 has been true of the Air Force I worked with. See. 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.720 The trouble is, can you think of the last time 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.640 that the air war was in doubt for the Air Force? 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.160 And it's like, well, early World War two, not even 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:57.400 late World War two, Vietnam, no, you know, in the 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.640 Middle East. No. So I think there's a certain degree 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:07.000 of lazy thinking that goes on because quite frankly, you 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.840 learn more from defeat than from victory. I mean, we're 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:17.760 teaching Russia how to really fight worse nowadays. So probably 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.079 ninety five percent of space for US is Air Force. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:24.319 So I talked to these generals and you know, lieutenants 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.600 or colonels and all that, and they keep thinking, tactically, oh, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:33.120 we're kind to you know, slowly maneuver to this satellite 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.720 and observe it, or maybe shoot it with a pelggon 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.160 or the French are telling me they were putting up 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.080 a laser, you know, and all that. But they're not 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.959 thinking this strategic big picture and that is well, a 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.320 satellite is strategic. It covers the world. You know, you 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.360 think you're doing something tactical. Not only are you doing 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.920 something strategic. And oh, by the way, maybe you're fighting 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:58.960 in the Middle of East or Ukraine or something of that, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.559 but you're going to attack that satellite in the South Atlantic, 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:03.520 you know, from a ship or something, you know, with 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:08.920 a laser or direct assent weapon. You have to think 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.480 the bigger picture global and then you have to think 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:17.240 political too, I mean wars, you know political. Unfortunately, we're 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.440 used to killing people on the ground during war. We're 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.760 not used to space war. Now. I've noticed this space 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.080 force the last few years is getting people used to 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.520 that concept. You know, they keep their marketing campaign getting 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.199 more and more severe or something like that. But if 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.920 you take out someone's satellite, you know, it has consequences. 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.840 Now there's a problem and a beauty with space too, 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:45.120 and that is conflict escalation letter and I go over 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.480 that in the book too. I've started learned that countries 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.839 are just like children. They'll do anything they want if 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.280 they can get away with it from their parents. Parents 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.240 being the United Nations, their own people or whatever. And 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:04.280 so you could think you could go to CIA headquarters 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.800 in Virginia. There's a wall with all the stars of 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:11.720 the agents who died in the line of duty. You know, 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:13.880 did any of those start a war? Do we even 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.400 know who they were? I heard I think it was 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:21.679 two years ago there was an incident between an American 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.040 and a Russian submarine in the Sea of Japan. You know, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.439 I just read in the paper and that's all they say, 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.120 an incident because there's no news camera taking it. You know, 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:34.560 they don't know. So what I'm getting at is spy warfare, 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.080 undersea warfare, space warfare. You can get away with a lot, 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.440 and we have. There's been more intense space war since 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.400 the nineteen sixties. I can, you know, show you a 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.800 bunch of those. And like I said, this the war 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.280 that happened in twenty fourteen Ukraine. I could mathematically prove 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.880 that through the orbital dynamics. So you really have to 0:13:55.920 --> 0:14:00.439 thank the bigger picture. You can't think, oh, this satellite 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.720 is going to come snuggle up to me and start, 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.640 you know, messing with me or something like that, because 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.760 that takes days and weeks to accomplish. Well, my simulations 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.560 have shown space wars over with in twenty four to 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.240 forty eight hours. You know, a real one. Oh, I've 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:20.520 got fifty space weapons going out right now, so you know, 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.000 I think in some sense we would self deter You know, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.160 I've heard at least years ago that we wouldn't attack 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.160 a satellite that attacked us unless we knew who owned 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:38.800 this satellite, you know, And that's kind of hard to do. 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:40.640 They're kind of arrogant too, and say, oh, we know 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.720 what satellites have been launched, and blah blah blah and 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.000 all that. And I say, well, you know, every two 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.240 weeks I download the official Air Force Satellite Orbital Catalog, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.320 and forty percent of the objects there are considered unknowns. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:56.800 We don't know who launched them, who owns them, and 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.560 what the mission is, so you know, you know of 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.520 what's really happening. And so the first step to defeat 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.640 in space is over confidence. Oh yeah, you know, we're 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.640 Air Force. We've won every single air war we've had, 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.120 and we'll win the space war. It doesn't take much. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:19.680 The most popular method is cyber warfare. Any country on 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.680 Earth has clever young kids who can be hackers and 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:29.880 hack a satellite. Every country on Earth has university with 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.160 high powered lasers that you can kind of gin up 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.960 and make more accurate and or whatever and mess with satellites. 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.200 I mean, I have a laser I got on Amazon 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.400 seven want laser handheld that'll start my furniture on fire 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.600 across the room in a fraction of a second. You know, 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.880 we'll put that out of satellite or whatever. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:49.200 You know. 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.800 I don't think people are really thinking these big pictures 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.880 and getting at the popularity of cyber warfare. Let me 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.160 do a thought experiment, and that is let's say you're 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.960 in a trench in Ukraine and you can hear the 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.320 Russian tanks revving up, you know, ready to come attack you. 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.080 And some egghead scientists comes into your trench and he 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.560 has this black box with the big red button. He says, oh, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.880 I've been developing this for years. It's a cyber weapon 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.680 that you know, if you push that red button, the 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.280 Russian tanks will stop. You'll mess with their computers or whatever, 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:33.000 you know. And you know, I haven't tested this in 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:34.960 the field, but it worked in the lab. Don't worry. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.680 And and the poor soldiers there, well, what about a 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.760 bazookah I said, oh, sorreh, well, used up all your 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.480 funding on this, you know, cyber weapon. You know, so 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.240 the Russian tanks attack, Oh, they push that button, you know, 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.480 the tank stop and thirty seconds later they reboot and 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.680 squish you. You know. So I don't know about you, 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.000 but as a guy, I find it much more emotionally 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.400 satisfying to see a burning hole in the ground where 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.240 the tank used to be, you know, as I did 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:07.560 the job. And it's the same kind of with space. Now, 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.040 of course, I have a whole other briefing. I can 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.600 present sometime ninety four ways to attack satellites without creating debris. 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.879 You really don't have to do the debris thing, but 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:22.080 you're really not sure. You know, people when they're about 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.720 to die get very clever. So you're really not sure 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.239 if the satellite's faking its death, especially if you use 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.480 the cyber means. You know, you're not even sure exactly 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.840 who attacked you. I mean, let's say we're at war 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:38.520 in the Western Pacific, China, Taiwan, whatever, and you wake 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.760 up one morning and several of your satellites stopped working. Well, 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.520 you know, my computer stopped working last month. You know, 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:51.240 maybe that same thing happened. Maybe a solar flares irradiated 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.400 too much, maybe a micro meteorite hit it. Oh it's 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:59.679 human cause. Oh this you know, Romanian satellite came too 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:04.800 close accidentally you know, Oh, no human cause and intentional. Okay, 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.359 what is the intent now? Let's say, oh, it's the 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.080 Chinese attacking us where we were the Well, maybe it's 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.840 the Russians of the North Koreans messing with you and 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.399 starting to stir the pot. How do you know who's 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.360 doing it, what their intent is? Are they going against 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:27.480 command and control, decapitation, communication satellites, are the imagery satellites navigation? 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.439 Are they doing a demonstration attack, like, well, we're showing 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.560 we're really serious now kind of thing. 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:45.840 One of the things that I found really interesting in 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.520 the book was talking about these various ways, and I 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.800 believe these are a mix of proven technologies and maybe 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.320 some of them are more possible for the future, but 0:18:55.400 --> 0:19:00.560 the ways that satellites can and will do battle with 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.399 one another. I believe you already mentioned grappling as a 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.000 mechanical grappling, but there are some other techniques in there, 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.920 and I thought you might discuss some of those. 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.120 Well, I've come up with some on my own head. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:19.439 But you know, most of not all satellites have to 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.960 point very accurately at the Earth, their antennas, their imagery, whatever. 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.720 So they had what are called star sensors, you know, 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:29.439 in the back of satellite, look at the stars, and 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.399 they could orient themselves because there's no up so to speak, 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.240 in space. And I theorize, well, if you've got one 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:42.200 of these inspector maintenance satellites, whatever, and you float behind 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.560 it and present an upside down star chart to it 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.879 with the satellite flip over, because these are just dumb machines, 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.679 you know, So there's a lot of techniques. I don't know, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.960 you know, if that would work. Certainly to my mind, 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:02.640 it's most effective weapon, not timeliness wise, but if someone 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.919 comes up there with the manipulator and you know China, 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:12.639 they gleefully told us about one of their supposedly dead 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.359 satellites and they used a satellite, came up close with 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:20.480 manipular arm and pulled it to what's called well sort 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.720 of graveyard orbit. It's very suspicious, but any rate, so 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.760 you can pull satellite out of orbit. But it's an 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.720 ideal weapon. A satellite coming up close to you, because 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.320 it's sort of like taking a satellite, putting in a wheelbarrow, 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.640 going in your garage and going at it. Well, let's 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:37.639 drill a hole, let's cut this wire, let's bend this, 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:43.440 let's all that. You know. Oh, let's paint the optics 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.280 with something that you know floats away a few weeks 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.080 later or something. You know. So you do a lot 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.840 of messing and there's a lot of people and unfortunately 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.720 one of them's Eline muss And I love Musk, but 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.280 who want to play the commercial entities who want to 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:07.800 play with army soldiers like children, And you know, Musk said, oh, 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.199 I'm going to give Ukraine these starlink terminals and all that. 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:15.120 And I'm pretty sure Russia attacked his systems for that, 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.800 but they don't really understand the consequences. And it's sort 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.680 of like Merchant Marine in World War Two. Well they 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:27.240 got sank two, you know. And I think I believe 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.880 there have been attacks on multiple satellite systems, not only 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:39.000 cyber attacks but others during the Ukrainian conflict. So this 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.440 thought that oh, I'm just going to play war and 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.200 the military is doing that too, that we're going to 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.399 take these satellites commercial statists and use them. And you know, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.840 the commercial ones have really cool technology and probably cheaper 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:56.239 and so forth, But who pays for them when they 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.800 get attacked? I don't know how that works. And you know, 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:05.480 they live in what I consider Disney fantasy worlds like Starlink. 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.360 I don't know, ten fifteen thousand satellites, Well, you got 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:13.280 to attack each one. No, you know, I've seen cyber 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.720 warfare techniques like thirty five years ago, going through the 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.120 electrical plug into your computer and all. I mean, people 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:22.080 are very clever. They'll always find a way. And I've 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:29.160 you know, theorized well Elon's Starlink satellites have a they 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:31.679 can tell how close they're coming to each other and 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.680 have an algorithm to say, oh we're too close, let's 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.040 go away. Well, you do a cyber attack. You put 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.440 a negative sign in that algorithm, and when they get 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.879 too close to the satellites start moving even closer and 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:43.479 you kill them all at once. You know, I mean, 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.680 there's always a way on that. So I think it's 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.960 easy for us to lose a war in space due 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:57.919 to overconfidence, due to not thinking strategically. You know, what 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:05.960 exactly are the consequences, I guess militarily politically, and also 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.840 getting back to your teaching your adversary how to fight 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.119 you better ten years later or whatever. So maybe it 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:20.360 should withhold some weapons and shape not only the future 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:24.960 battlefield but the future political environment of well, oh gee, 0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:27.399 look at this, we want that space war. Look at 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:29.880 all the junks flown around. Well, now all your allies 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:34.280 hate you. Now they are all these treaties restricting you. 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.880 Maybe you should have thought of that beforehand and said, well, 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:40.720 let's do it this way, maneuver this way, or whatever, 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:45.800 and so more improbable this new treaty won't be so 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:48.800 bad or something. I mean, think of the political now. 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.560 For years I've said, oh, look at this cool multi 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.760 billion dollar space weapons program, you know, And I said, well, 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.600 you know, we're starting to develop this now, why don't 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.240 we get the State Department in on this early on? 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.200 Because they're going to be part of I don't know 0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:06.480 what used to be called National command authorities, but they're 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:08.639 going to be in the room with the President's deciding 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:13.320 whether attack or not. And if the State Department got 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:15.720 on early, they could say, well, if you tweak it 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:19.960 slightly later on, there would be more probably will prove 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:23.479 it or something, you know. And I was always told, oh, 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.119 we can't truss the State Department. You know, they'll just reveal, 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:28.639 you know, what we got or whatever. And you know, 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:31.960 all governments are like that, each department hates each other 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.119 and all that. But I've got over twenty eight thousand 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:39.119 members in my space warfare discussion group on LinkedIn, and 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:43.639 one of them is a former assistant Secretary of State, 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.480 and he says, yeah, they're right. State Department never knew 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.480 a treaty. It didn't like for space, you know, restricting 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:52.720 something in space. You know. So we've got all these 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:58.920 kind of undercurrents and getting back to children playing with toys, 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.280 it's conceivable that let's say the Space for US attacks 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.480