1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin. My name is jo Lapour. I'm a professor of 2 00:00:23,396 --> 00:00:25,796 Speaker 1: history at Harvard, a New York or staff writer and 3 00:00:25,876 --> 00:00:29,876 Speaker 1: host of the podcast The Last Archive. Last spring, I 4 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 1: made a program with the BBC's Radio four. It's called 5 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:36,916 Speaker 1: The Evening Rocket, and now Pushkin Industries is releasing that 6 00:00:36,996 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 1: show stateside for the first time. It's all about Elon 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 1: Musk and his strange new kind of capitalism. Call it Muskism, 8 00:00:45,596 --> 00:00:51,356 Speaker 1: extravagant extreme capitalism, extraterrestrial capitalism where stock prices are driven 9 00:00:51,356 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: by earnings but also by fantasies. I'm fascinated by civilcon 10 00:00:56,116 --> 00:01:00,156 Speaker 1: Valley's futurism and by how in Musk's life those visions 11 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 1: of the future will come from the same place the 12 00:01:03,356 --> 00:01:06,516 Speaker 1: science fiction he grew up on. To understand where Musk 13 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: wants to take the rest of us with his electric cars, 14 00:01:09,316 --> 00:01:13,356 Speaker 1: rockets to Mars, his meme stocks, and tunnels deep beneath 15 00:01:13,356 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 1: the Earth, I decided to look at those science fiction 16 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: stories and understand what he's missed about them. So blast 17 00:01:19,996 --> 00:01:22,516 Speaker 1: off with me on The Evening Rocket on a journey 18 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:35,316 Speaker 1: into the history of our future. Elon Musk is one 19 00:01:35,316 --> 00:01:38,836 Speaker 1: of the richest people on the planet He intends to 20 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:42,516 Speaker 1: save the world from climate catastrophe with electric cars and 21 00:01:42,596 --> 00:01:47,356 Speaker 1: solar panels and underground tunnels. He plans to colonize Mars. 22 00:01:47,756 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 1: He's building chips to put in people's brains. He is 23 00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:54,596 Speaker 1: adored by fifty million followers on Twitter. He has two 24 00:01:54,796 --> 00:01:58,716 Speaker 1: x wives and six sons, including a baby named X. 25 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:02,876 Speaker 1: The bare facts of Musk's life, the way they're usually 26 00:02:02,916 --> 00:02:06,636 Speaker 1: told make them sound like a fictional character, a comic 27 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 1: book superhero. But what's the story, the actual history behind 28 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: the comic book. Welcome to The Evening Rocket. I'm Jill Lapour. 29 00:02:24,476 --> 00:02:27,636 Speaker 1: I'm a professor at Harvard. I'm a US political historian, 30 00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 1: and for a long time I've been studying the relationship 31 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: between technological and political change. I'm fascinated by visions of 32 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:40,636 Speaker 1: the future in political discourse, in literature and science fiction, 33 00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:46,836 Speaker 1: and even comic books. This series, I'll be exploring a 34 00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:52,436 Speaker 1: new kind of capitalism, call it Muscism, extravagant extreme capitalism, 35 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:57,036 Speaker 1: extra terrestrial capitalism, where stock prices are driven by earnings 36 00:02:57,396 --> 00:03:00,516 Speaker 1: and also by fantasies. Fantasies that you can find in 37 00:03:00,556 --> 00:03:04,956 Speaker 1: blockbusters superhero movies, but that come from science fiction. Some 38 00:03:05,116 --> 00:03:12,116 Speaker 1: of it a century old. The title of this series 39 00:03:12,156 --> 00:03:14,996 Speaker 1: comes from old science fiction two in a pulp story 40 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:18,636 Speaker 1: from nineteen thirty eight, The Evening Rocket was the name 41 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 1: of a newspaper of the future, also in Silicon Valley. 42 00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 1: The rocket is the go to metaphor for explosive growth. 43 00:03:26,916 --> 00:03:29,636 Speaker 1: This is a rocket ship, Get on it. The CEO 44 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:32,836 Speaker 1: of Google like to tell people about his company. Cheryl 45 00:03:32,916 --> 00:03:36,316 Speaker 1: Sandberg of Facebook said the same thing. It's all about 46 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:40,876 Speaker 1: fast growth. Blast off the people at Google and Facebook. 47 00:03:41,076 --> 00:03:44,836 Speaker 1: They're not doing rocket science. Elon Musk, though he really 48 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:49,156 Speaker 1: does run a rocket science company. It's called SpaceX. Musk 49 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:53,036 Speaker 1: loves the letter X. One of his first big startups, 50 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: X dot com. X is sexy as an X rated, 51 00:03:57,156 --> 00:04:00,756 Speaker 1: but X is sexy because X means mysterious and X 52 00:04:00,836 --> 00:04:05,196 Speaker 1: means mysterious because in sixteen thirty seven, when Renee Descartes 53 00:04:05,196 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 1: sat down to write a treatise on geometry, he decided 54 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:11,876 Speaker 1: to use X and Z for variables, but his printer 55 00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 1: setting the type kept running out of ys and z's, 56 00:04:15,756 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: but not xes because you don't use X very often 57 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:23,756 Speaker 1: in French, so he used mostly xes X. The unknown 58 00:04:27,196 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century, X became science fiction writer's favorite 59 00:04:31,316 --> 00:04:41,796 Speaker 1: letter of the alphabet X for extraterrestrial, as in the 60 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:45,636 Speaker 1: film The Strange World of Planet X. Be prepared for 61 00:04:45,756 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 1: a fantastic adventure and to the future a monstrous world 62 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 1: of terriinal chaos. By the nineteen nineties, X Men, xbox, 63 00:04:56,636 --> 00:05:01,356 Speaker 1: X Files and then Elon Muskin X dot Com, SpaceX, 64 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:07,316 Speaker 1: something strange was happening to capitalism. As the gap between 65 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:09,916 Speaker 1: the rich and the poor got wider and eider, the 66 00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:14,356 Speaker 1: claims of corporations got more and more grandiose. Google opened 67 00:05:14,396 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 1: an R and D division called X, whose aim was 68 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:21,996 Speaker 1: to solve some of the world's hardest problems. Tech companies 69 00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 1: started talking about their mission, and their mission was always 70 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:29,796 Speaker 1: magnificently inflated, transforming the future of work, connecting all of humanity, 71 00:05:30,236 --> 00:05:34,476 Speaker 1: making the world a better place. Scholars kept groping for 72 00:05:34,556 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 1: adjectives to describe these new brands of capitalism. Surveillance capitalism, 73 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: platform capitalism, identity capitalism, What about just x capitalism? Expert extreme, 74 00:05:46,116 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 1: extravagant existential a capitalism in which companies worry very publicly 75 00:05:51,676 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 1: and quite feverishly about planetary disaster, about the all two 76 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 1: real catastrophe of climate change, but also about all sorts 77 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:02,556 Speaker 1: of so called existential risks to the future of the 78 00:06:02,636 --> 00:06:06,716 Speaker 1: human race, so that they can save us all. A 79 00:06:06,836 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 1: capitalism animated by catastrophe, a capitalism driven by science fiction 80 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 1: and driven too by the disavowal of its own origins. 81 00:06:22,636 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: To recover that history, each episode of The Evening Rocket 82 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 1: will blast off to the past. This episode is called 83 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:37,436 Speaker 1: Dimension X. Our first destination in time and space is 84 00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:41,756 Speaker 1: South Africa in the nineteen seventies. Elon Musk was born 85 00:06:41,796 --> 00:06:45,196 Speaker 1: in Pretoria in nineteen seventy one. His father, Errol, was 86 00:06:45,236 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 1: an engineer who owned a construction business. His mother was 87 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 1: a former model. They had three kids. Elon was the oldest, 88 00:06:51,796 --> 00:06:54,076 Speaker 1: and then they got divorced when he was still a boy. 89 00:06:54,956 --> 00:06:57,956 Speaker 1: Errol Musk once gave an interview to South Africa's Radio 90 00:06:58,076 --> 00:07:01,276 Speaker 1: seven o two about his oldest son. But there's something 91 00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 1: about Elon that's an X factor. What is that? Yeah, 92 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: I would say that it's always been a very deep sea. 93 00:07:10,556 --> 00:07:12,836 Speaker 1: When he was very small, for example, he would ask 94 00:07:12,956 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 1: me where is the whole world? The story of Velan 95 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,116 Speaker 1: Musk's childhood, as it's usually told, is right out of 96 00:07:21,116 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 1: science fiction from a genre noon as the Boy Wonder story. 97 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: My favorites are the Tom Swift books series that started 98 00:07:28,916 --> 00:07:33,636 Speaker 1: in nineteen ten. Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout, the 99 00:07:33,756 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 1: speediest car on the road. Barton Swift, esteemed inventor, was 100 00:07:39,116 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: drawing a complicated machine, pausing to make some intricate calculations 101 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 1: when his young son interrupted him, I'm gonna build an 102 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:55,396 Speaker 1: electric runabout, Dad, m I don't take much stock in 103 00:07:55,516 --> 00:08:01,236 Speaker 1: electric autos. Tom, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. All the 104 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 1: electric runabouts I ever saw, while they were very nice cars, 105 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: didn't seem able to go so very fast. Ah, very far, 106 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 1: that's true, but it's because they didn't have the right 107 00:08:15,356 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 1: kind of battery. It seems to me that if you 108 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:21,036 Speaker 1: put the right kind of battery into an automobile, it 109 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:25,756 Speaker 1: could scoot a lung pretty lively. That Tom Swift story 110 00:08:25,916 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 1: was published more than a century ago, But the way 111 00:08:28,636 --> 00:08:31,876 Speaker 1: Errol Musk tells it, Little Elon was that same boy Wonder. 112 00:08:32,276 --> 00:08:35,076 Speaker 1: When the computers came out right in the beginning, he 113 00:08:35,236 --> 00:08:38,196 Speaker 1: came to me and said, the would like to have 114 00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 1: one of these new computers. In nineteen eighty four, when 115 00:08:44,236 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 1: Elon Musk was twelve, he sold a video game to 116 00:08:47,076 --> 00:08:51,076 Speaker 1: PC Magazine for five hundred dollars. It's called blast Star 117 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 1: Black Screen, little squary blobs, Space Invader style our mission 118 00:08:57,636 --> 00:09:01,956 Speaker 1: destroy alien freighter carrying deadly hydrogen bombs and status beam machines. 119 00:09:05,036 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 1: So don't get me wrong. Elon Musk really was a 120 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: whiz kid. And when Musk tells his own origin story, 121 00:09:11,356 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 1: like when he spoke at the Computer History Museum in California, 122 00:09:14,716 --> 00:09:16,996 Speaker 1: that's how he tells it. I was very party bookers. 123 00:09:17,076 --> 00:09:18,556 Speaker 1: I was reading all the time, so I was either 124 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 1: reading or working on my computer or reading comics. He 125 00:09:21,836 --> 00:09:23,956 Speaker 1: read a lot of books, but he says that one 126 00:09:23,996 --> 00:09:27,676 Speaker 1: book above all became his guide for life, the Elon 127 00:09:27,756 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 1: Musk Bible. I guess when I was twelve with the 128 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:33,636 Speaker 1: Tina had Company existential crisis, and I was reading various books. 129 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:35,596 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out the meaning of life. And 130 00:09:36,476 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 1: we happen to have like some books by Nietzche and 131 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 1: Schopenhauer in the house, which you should not read at 132 00:09:40,716 --> 00:09:48,636 Speaker 1: age fourteen. It's really negative. Yeah, And I read The 133 00:09:48,716 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy. It was quite positive. I think 134 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:54,996 Speaker 1: in Douglas Adams is Hitchhiker's Guide. The people of megal 135 00:09:54,996 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: Athia build an enormous computer to ask it a question 136 00:09:57,876 --> 00:10:01,716 Speaker 1: about life, the universe and everything, and after thinking for 137 00:10:01,836 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 1: millions of years, it answers forty two. Musk says that 138 00:10:06,956 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 1: taught him a lesson a lot of times. The question 139 00:10:09,516 --> 00:10:11,796 Speaker 1: is harder than the answer, and if you can properly 140 00:10:11,836 --> 00:10:14,516 Speaker 1: phrase the question, then the answer is the easy part. 141 00:10:15,276 --> 00:10:18,316 Speaker 1: The Hitchhiker's Guide didn't start out as a book. Adams 142 00:10:18,316 --> 00:10:21,476 Speaker 1: wrote it for BBC Radio four, and starting in nineteen 143 00:10:21,556 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: seventy eight it was broadcast on the BBC World Service, 144 00:10:24,916 --> 00:10:35,556 Speaker 1: including Tupratoria. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. 145 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:38,276 Speaker 1: Far back in the mists of ancient time, in the 146 00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:42,436 Speaker 1: great and glorious days of the former Galactic Empire, life 147 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 1: was wild, rich, and on the whole tax free. Many men, 148 00:10:48,076 --> 00:10:51,356 Speaker 1: of course, became extremely rich. But this was perfectly natural 149 00:10:51,356 --> 00:10:53,396 Speaker 1: and nothing to be ashamed of, because no one was 150 00:10:53,436 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 1: really poor, at least no one. We're speaking of. The 151 00:10:57,756 --> 00:11:02,636 Speaker 1: Hitchhiker's Guide, that is, begins with an indictment of economic inequality. 152 00:11:04,196 --> 00:11:06,076 Speaker 1: What was it like to listen to this in South 153 00:11:06,116 --> 00:11:10,956 Speaker 1: Africa under apartheid. Musk hardly ever talks about apartheid, at 154 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:13,836 Speaker 1: least not publicly. I'm going to talk about it for 155 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:16,796 Speaker 1: a while here because it's a crucial piece of this history. 156 00:11:17,516 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 1: But first, let me be really clear. White people who 157 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:23,396 Speaker 1: happened to grow up in South Africa under apartheid in 158 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:27,596 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties are not responsible for apartheid. 159 00:11:28,156 --> 00:11:31,756 Speaker 1: Peter Thiel, another Silicon Valley entrepreneur and later a key 160 00:11:31,836 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 1: business partner of Elon Musk's, also lived in South Africa 161 00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:38,836 Speaker 1: for a while as a kid they were children. Also, 162 00:11:39,036 --> 00:11:42,396 Speaker 1: Musk left South Africa when he was seventeen to avoid 163 00:11:42,436 --> 00:11:45,556 Speaker 1: being conscripted into the army, the army that imposed and 164 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: enforced the regime. I'm not placing blame here. Still, I 165 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:52,676 Speaker 1: do think there's a weird way in which the culture 166 00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:56,876 Speaker 1: of apartheid found expression in the nineteen nineties and Silicon 167 00:11:56,996 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 1: Valley's vision of the future. You've said that apartheid is 168 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 1: a habit of mind. Can you tell me what you 169 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:07,556 Speaker 1: mean by that? I called up Jacob Glamini, a professor 170 00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:10,916 Speaker 1: of African history at Princeton. He grew up in South Africa, 171 00:12:11,036 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 1: and he's written beautifully and powerfully about apartheid. What I 172 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:16,876 Speaker 1: mean by that is that the party it was not 173 00:12:16,996 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: just a social and political and economic system, but that 174 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 1: it was also a cultural system which incarcated in South Africans, 175 00:12:25,596 --> 00:12:29,636 Speaker 1: both black and white, patterns of behavior, ways of thinking. 176 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 1: It's side to transform how people saw themselves, but also 177 00:12:33,516 --> 00:12:37,196 Speaker 1: how they saw the world. The color question is rapidly 178 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:43,236 Speaker 1: increasing in seriousness and urgency. I consider apartheid to be 179 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:50,676 Speaker 1: South Africa's lost chance to remain a white man's country. Apartheid, 180 00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 1: which means a parthood, began in nineteen forty eight. That 181 00:12:54,676 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 1: same year, in nineteen forty eight, Elon Musk's mother was 182 00:12:57,236 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 1: born in Canada. Her father, J. N. Haldeman was an 183 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 1: ardent conservative and anti communist. In nineteen fifty, Haldiman moved 184 00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:08,596 Speaker 1: his family to South Africa. Was there a lot of 185 00:13:09,116 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 1: immigration from saying North America to South Africa after apartheid 186 00:13:12,756 --> 00:13:16,156 Speaker 1: was declared? I just find that like an odd journey 187 00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:20,036 Speaker 1: for a family to make in nineteen fifty. Oh yeah, 188 00:13:20,076 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 1: I think that is quite striking. There is this conscious 189 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 1: effort and conscious attempt to recruit people to South Africa 190 00:13:27,356 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: to beef up white numbers to a point where blacks 191 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:33,716 Speaker 1: would not be such a demographic threat. You know, here's 192 00:13:33,716 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 1: a place with amazing sunshine, great weather, and you can 193 00:13:38,676 --> 00:13:43,196 Speaker 1: actually live like a king or a queen. Elon Musk's 194 00:13:43,236 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 1: mother published a memoir in twenty twenty. It's called A 195 00:13:46,476 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 1: Woman Makes a Plan Advice for a lifetime of adventure, 196 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: beauty and Success. A lot of the book is about 197 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,116 Speaker 1: growing up in South Africa in the nineteen fifties and 198 00:13:55,236 --> 00:13:58,476 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. She says her parents were persuaded to move 199 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:01,356 Speaker 1: there from Canada by missionaries who talked of its beauty. 200 00:14:02,156 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 1: Not once does she mention apartheid. Domini says that's not 201 00:14:06,276 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 1: unusual that the regime organized itself around acts of forgetting 202 00:14:10,316 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 1: and a razure, including pretending the native population somehow didn't 203 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:18,636 Speaker 1: even exist. Unlike in the America's Right, you know, where 204 00:14:18,636 --> 00:14:22,996 Speaker 1: the indigenous populations were annihilated, the South African gates is different. 205 00:14:23,076 --> 00:14:26,396 Speaker 1: The vast majority of the population is not annihilated, and 206 00:14:26,556 --> 00:14:28,876 Speaker 1: whatever you have to build has to be built around 207 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 1: this idea that the natives have not disappeared. A resistance 208 00:14:32,476 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 1: movement rose up led beginning in the nineteen sixties by 209 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 1: a young lawyer, Nelson Mandela. The Africans require the franchise 210 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,276 Speaker 1: on the basis of one man, one vote. They're one 211 00:14:45,356 --> 00:14:50,636 Speaker 1: political independence. Mandela was sent to prison in nineteen sixty three. Meanwhile, 212 00:14:50,916 --> 00:14:56,396 Speaker 1: the resistance grew is Radio Freio, the voice of the 213 00:14:56,396 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 1: African National Congress. The UN General Assembly denounced the apartheid 214 00:15:00,356 --> 00:15:04,436 Speaker 1: regime in nineteen seventy three. Two years later, right about 215 00:15:04,436 --> 00:15:07,996 Speaker 1: when Elon Musk was starting kindergarten, police open fire on 216 00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:11,236 Speaker 1: thousands of school ldren during a protest, and so wadow 217 00:15:11,876 --> 00:15:17,196 Speaker 1: we play in the yard, the school yard, in the 218 00:15:17,276 --> 00:15:22,116 Speaker 1: pools of hitting creatures. These were black children. White children 219 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:24,996 Speaker 1: went to white schools. Black people had to pay for 220 00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:28,356 Speaker 1: their education, but whites didn't. Some people were joking it 221 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 1: was actually socialism for whites and capitalism for blacks, right, 222 00:15:31,676 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 1: And that's how a party it actually justified itself that, 223 00:15:34,556 --> 00:15:38,876 Speaker 1: you know, we create in a class of successful white people, 224 00:15:39,516 --> 00:15:42,996 Speaker 1: people who ran construction businesses like Errol Musk. Elon's father 225 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:45,716 Speaker 1: made a lot of money in the apartheid era, building 226 00:15:45,836 --> 00:15:49,196 Speaker 1: two of everything, one for blacks and one for whites. 227 00:15:49,876 --> 00:15:53,636 Speaker 1: For whites, they built a fantasy world. Ideologically, I think 228 00:15:53,636 --> 00:15:56,116 Speaker 1: one of the successes of a part aid was in 229 00:15:56,276 --> 00:15:59,196 Speaker 1: making whites out off can't believe that everything they achieved 230 00:15:59,476 --> 00:16:02,876 Speaker 1: was through individual initiative, and everything that they ever have 231 00:16:02,996 --> 00:16:06,396 Speaker 1: got in life was through their own hard work, you know, 232 00:16:06,516 --> 00:16:08,916 Speaker 1: never mind the fact that the system was designed to 233 00:16:09,356 --> 00:16:11,396 Speaker 1: some ways gave them all the benefit and to give 234 00:16:11,396 --> 00:16:14,716 Speaker 1: them all the resources to get on in life. It's 235 00:16:14,716 --> 00:16:17,636 Speaker 1: so interesting because the darkness of that divide, you know, 236 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:23,756 Speaker 1: the rigidity of the separation, has so many earlier representations 237 00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 1: in the world of science fiction, right, like so much 238 00:16:25,796 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 1: of H. G. Wells as science fiction is about what 239 00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: about a terrible, awful future in which we divide people 240 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:34,356 Speaker 1: into some who will live underground and do all of 241 00:16:34,356 --> 00:16:36,596 Speaker 1: the work for us, and we will never see them, 242 00:16:36,596 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 1: and we will pretend they don't even exist, and those 243 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 1: of us who will live in the skies and in 244 00:16:40,596 --> 00:16:44,076 Speaker 1: the clouds. And to me, sometimes when I think about 245 00:16:44,076 --> 00:16:48,436 Speaker 1: what Silicon Valley is imagining, we will colonize Mars, and 246 00:16:48,516 --> 00:16:51,036 Speaker 1: some people will go there who really need to be 247 00:16:51,356 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 1: relieved of their experience on Earth. I mean, am I 248 00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:58,916 Speaker 1: off base to say that some of that seems to 249 00:16:58,956 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 1: revive these notions of very very strict hierarchies. I don't 250 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 1: think you're off base at all, Joe. I mean, I 251 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:09,436 Speaker 1: think you've put your finger in it. And of course 252 00:17:09,436 --> 00:17:12,316 Speaker 1: we don't want to instrumentalize this and see, you know, 253 00:17:12,356 --> 00:17:14,996 Speaker 1: it does just caused an effect. But I think there's 254 00:17:15,036 --> 00:17:18,516 Speaker 1: a strong case to be made for the connection between 255 00:17:18,716 --> 00:17:23,876 Speaker 1: this a part of dystopia and this idealized version of 256 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:26,596 Speaker 1: a world where the elites don't have to share their 257 00:17:26,636 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: oxygen with lesser beings. So I listened to The Hitchhiker's Guide, 258 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:34,436 Speaker 1: and I find it strange that Elon Musk is such 259 00:17:34,436 --> 00:17:36,756 Speaker 1: a fan, because a lot of it sounds to me 260 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:39,396 Speaker 1: like an indictment of people just like him, or like 261 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:42,836 Speaker 1: Amazon's Jeff Bezos. The mega rich, with their privately owned 262 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:46,836 Speaker 1: rockets blasting off to other planets, and for these extremely 263 00:17:46,916 --> 00:17:50,396 Speaker 1: rich merchants, life eventually became rather dull, and it seemed 264 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:53,956 Speaker 1: that none of the worlds they settled on was entirely satisfactory. 265 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:57,596 Speaker 1: Either the climate wasn't quite right in the later part 266 00:17:57,596 --> 00:18:00,596 Speaker 1: of the afternoon, nor the day was half an hour 267 00:18:00,716 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 1: too long, or the sea was just the wrong shade 268 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 1: of pink. And thus where created the conditions for a 269 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:14,076 Speaker 1: staggering new form of industry, custom made luxury planet building. 270 00:18:15,796 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 1: Also hear me out. I think the Hitchhiker's Guide, broadcast 271 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 1: by the BBC in the nineteen seventies, just when the 272 00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:27,636 Speaker 1: world was condemning apartheid, sounds quite specifically as though it's 273 00:18:27,636 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: an indictment of apartheid like social and economic systems. And 274 00:18:31,516 --> 00:18:37,756 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm overreading. Douglas Adams wrote Hitchhiker's Guide 275 00:18:37,756 --> 00:18:41,236 Speaker 1: on herme's manual typewriter. One key is more worn down 276 00:18:41,276 --> 00:18:44,716 Speaker 1: than the rest, the letter X. And you know what 277 00:18:44,836 --> 00:18:48,036 Speaker 1: was on the side of that typewriter, a sticker. It 278 00:18:48,116 --> 00:18:56,876 Speaker 1: says end apartheid. When Elon Musk started college at the 279 00:18:56,996 --> 00:19:01,076 Speaker 1: University of Pretoria, apartheid was on the verge of collapse 280 00:19:01,396 --> 00:19:08,636 Speaker 1: today if black and wide the lack of nine bapati. 281 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:13,716 Speaker 1: By then, in nineteen ninety, when Mandela was released after 282 00:19:13,796 --> 00:19:17,116 Speaker 1: twenty seven years in prison, Elon Musk had left South 283 00:19:17,116 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 1: Africa behind to launch his new life in North America. 284 00:19:26,676 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 1: We have to get back in the rocket again to 285 00:19:28,516 --> 00:19:31,836 Speaker 1: go still further back in time, two generations in fact, 286 00:19:32,316 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 1: because after graduating, Musk traveled to Canada, where his maternal 287 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:39,716 Speaker 1: grandfather was from He wanted to get to the United States, 288 00:19:39,756 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 1: but it was easier to get a Canadian passport. Having 289 00:19:42,876 --> 00:19:45,716 Speaker 1: broken with his father, he flew to Montreal with nothing 290 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 1: but a backpack, then hitchhiked to Saskatchewan, where his grandfather 291 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:53,156 Speaker 1: had lived before moving the family to South Africa. And 292 00:19:53,236 --> 00:19:56,196 Speaker 1: it's this grandfather, j Nn Haldeman, who I want to 293 00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 1: look at next, because before he left Canada in the 294 00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:02,476 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, he'd been a leader of a strange sci 295 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:08,116 Speaker 1: fi inspired movement known as technocracy. It bears an uncanny 296 00:20:08,156 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 1: resemblance to some things going on today in Silicon Valley, 297 00:20:12,116 --> 00:20:18,836 Speaker 1: repackaged as existential risk futurism. What technocracy ink is chiefly 298 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 1: engaged in now is the organization of an army of 299 00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:27,916 Speaker 1: trained men and women who, when the present interference controls 300 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:32,636 Speaker 1: break down and the intricate machinery of production and distribution 301 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:36,116 Speaker 1: is in danger of stopping, will be able to prevent 302 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:40,356 Speaker 1: that catastrophe before it is too late. So this sounds 303 00:20:40,396 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 1: like science fiction, but this really happened. People in the 304 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: technocracy movement, they call themselves technocrats, wanted engineers and scientists 305 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:52,356 Speaker 1: to run governments. They took their inspiration from science fiction, 306 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:56,116 Speaker 1: where engineers and scientists were always solving problems. They were 307 00:20:56,156 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 1: suspicious of democracy and also of capitalism. By price system 308 00:21:01,356 --> 00:21:04,836 Speaker 1: is not meant merely the capitalistic system, which is only 309 00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 1: one variety of the species. It means the collapse and 310 00:21:09,116 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 1: complete obsolescence of the entire method of distributing goods and 311 00:21:14,156 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: services by means of a price. There will be no 312 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:25,316 Speaker 1: place for politics or politicians, finance or financiers. Rackets are racketeers. 313 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: Grant Whiteoff teaches Digital Humanities and American Studies at Princeton. 314 00:21:30,676 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 1: He says that technocracy movement started in New York in 315 00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen with a guy who ran a floor waxing business. 316 00:21:37,276 --> 00:21:40,676 Speaker 1: His idea was that engineers had these unique qualities that 317 00:21:40,716 --> 00:21:43,716 Speaker 1: would somehow make them good social leaders. They could assess 318 00:21:43,756 --> 00:21:46,756 Speaker 1: a situation from above, they would come up with much 319 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: more rational or economic solutions than politicians or economic leaders would. Then, 320 00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:55,996 Speaker 1: with the stock market crash of nineteen twenty nine and 321 00:21:56,036 --> 00:21:59,636 Speaker 1: the depression that followed, democracies were collapsing all over the world. 322 00:22:00,156 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 1: Technocracy really had its moment. Local chapters at that point 323 00:22:03,756 --> 00:22:07,436 Speaker 1: had sprung up everywhere across the US and Canada, and 324 00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 1: each of those chapters art putting forward their own competing ideas. 325 00:22:11,996 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: There's an invented unit of measure called the ERG. This 326 00:22:15,436 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: is one solution that we replace currency with units of energy, 327 00:22:18,796 --> 00:22:22,556 Speaker 1: depended on how much energy a single worker is capable 328 00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 1: of producing in a given day and how much they 329 00:22:25,156 --> 00:22:28,276 Speaker 1: should get in return for that work. As far as 330 00:22:28,316 --> 00:22:30,716 Speaker 1: I can tell, it's at this point that Elon Musk's 331 00:22:30,716 --> 00:22:34,556 Speaker 1: grandfather got involved with technocracy. He lost his farm during 332 00:22:34,556 --> 00:22:38,236 Speaker 1: the depression and ever after didn't believe in banks or banking. 333 00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:41,236 Speaker 1: A lot of people felt that way, and some of 334 00:22:41,236 --> 00:22:43,956 Speaker 1: them were drawn into the set of ideas about a 335 00:22:43,996 --> 00:22:46,556 Speaker 1: different way of thinking about money. And some of the 336 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 1: chapters start doing odd things to kind of get their 337 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:54,876 Speaker 1: message across. They start wearing these identical gray uniforms, driving 338 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:59,836 Speaker 1: these gray cars in these large parades, blasting speeches out 339 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:04,716 Speaker 1: of megaphones. They adopt this Yin Yang symbol on all 340 00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:07,916 Speaker 1: of their uniforms and all of their signs. I'm kind 341 00:23:07,956 --> 00:23:09,836 Speaker 1: of pulled into a different directions, you know. On the 342 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:13,996 Speaker 1: one hand, I just I just think they're nuts, And 343 00:23:14,156 --> 00:23:16,356 Speaker 1: on the other hand, it seems to reflect an enormous 344 00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 1: amount of anguish and uncertainty. But it has a kind 345 00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:22,796 Speaker 1: of quasi fascistic feel to me. How should we read that? 346 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:25,276 Speaker 1: Technocracy from the start was caught up in a lot 347 00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:29,116 Speaker 1: of different science fictional imaginaries that it didn't always have 348 00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:34,476 Speaker 1: full perspective on. They want to write themselves into these 349 00:23:34,516 --> 00:23:39,356 Speaker 1: gleaming science fictional futures that they are obsessed with, but 350 00:23:39,596 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 1: without actually thinking through what that would mean in practice, 351 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 1: what it would mean to replace an entire system of 352 00:23:45,836 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 1: government some of what Elon Musk and other Silicon Valley 353 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs now indoors. There's something of a family likeness to 354 00:23:55,116 --> 00:23:58,956 Speaker 1: the technocracy movement, a fixation on futurism, a kind of 355 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:03,836 Speaker 1: radical rationalism, the idea that technological innovation can solve political 356 00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:06,836 Speaker 1: and social problems, a critique of paper currency and the 357 00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:11,836 Speaker 1: price system. Also, for some reason, technocrats objected to personal names. 358 00:24:12,356 --> 00:24:16,396 Speaker 1: For instance, one technocrat renamed himself one X one eight 359 00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:20,556 Speaker 1: zero nine x five six, like Elon Musk's youngest son, 360 00:24:20,916 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 1: a baby named x Ash twelve or X for short. 361 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:30,596 Speaker 1: Elon Musk, after that year in Saskatchewan, spent two years 362 00:24:30,636 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 1: at Queen's University in Ontario. Then he transferred to the 363 00:24:34,796 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania, graduating with degrees in economics and physics. 364 00:24:39,516 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 1: He spent a summer interning at dot COM's in Silicon Valley, 365 00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: where things were getting wild. It was a gold rush. 366 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,996 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, the Internet opened to commercial traffic 367 00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:56,436 Speaker 1: for the first time. You could buy stuff online. But 368 00:24:56,556 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: how Musk started a PhD program in material science engineering 369 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,156 Speaker 1: at Stanford but dropped out after two days. As he 370 00:25:04,276 --> 00:25:08,036 Speaker 1: later told CNN back in ninety five, they weren't for 371 00:25:08,196 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: many people on the Internet, and certainly nobody was making 372 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:14,516 Speaker 1: any money at all. Most people thought the Internet was 373 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:18,516 Speaker 1: going to be a fat elon. Musk started his first company, 374 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:22,356 Speaker 1: zip two, with his brother and a friend. Everyone at 375 00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: the time was trying to engage in what was called 376 00:25:24,436 --> 00:25:29,356 Speaker 1: disruptive innovation, which means destroy existing industries by doing things 377 00:25:29,396 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 1: completely differently online. Zip two was a newspaper industry disruptive innovation. 378 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 1: It helped newspapers make the transition to online publishing, though 379 00:25:39,036 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 1: it also contributed to a crisis in journalism. All sorts 380 00:25:43,036 --> 00:25:47,076 Speaker 1: of people founded news aggregators and news feeds. Musk made 381 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 1: his first fortune in nineteen ninety nine. He sold Zip 382 00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 1: two for three hundred million dollars cash receiving cash is cash. 383 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,876 Speaker 1: I mean, those are just a large number of Ben Franklin's. 384 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 1: He then turned to thinking about online money technocrats. Like 385 00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 1: his grandfather had wanted to abolish the price system, Musk 386 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:10,676 Speaker 1: wanted to restructure the system of exchange itself. This planet 387 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:13,836 Speaker 1: has or had a problem, which was this, most of 388 00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:16,356 Speaker 1: the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much 389 00:26:16,356 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 1: of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, 390 00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:22,916 Speaker 1: but most of these were largely concerned with the movements 391 00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:26,196 Speaker 1: of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because 392 00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:29,116 Speaker 1: on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of 393 00:26:29,156 --> 00:26:33,516 Speaker 1: paper that were unhappy. In nineteen ninety nine, Musk founded 394 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 1: a new company, X dot com. So this is an ATM. 395 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 1: All we're going to do is transform the traditional banking industry. 396 00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 1: Musk put millions of dollars into x dot com. He said, 397 00:26:44,796 --> 00:26:47,356 Speaker 1: selling one business and starting the next was like a 398 00:26:47,436 --> 00:26:50,116 Speaker 1: high stakes poker game. You win a big pot, you 399 00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: risk it all all over again. This is called serial entrepreneurship. 400 00:26:54,916 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 1: Start it, sell it, raise venture capital to start the 401 00:26:57,956 --> 00:27:00,716 Speaker 1: next thing. Every time you do this, you've got to 402 00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:04,076 Speaker 1: come up with a story, characters, and a plot. Because 403 00:27:04,116 --> 00:27:07,156 Speaker 1: your investors don't have any real metrics, no earnings or profits, 404 00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:12,196 Speaker 1: no prices invests. You are buying your story. A startup 405 00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:15,036 Speaker 1: doesn't actually have to make anything, or do anything, or 406 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:17,916 Speaker 1: succeed in any measurable way. For a venture capitalist to 407 00:27:17,956 --> 00:27:21,316 Speaker 1: make money. That startup just has to sound good enough 408 00:27:21,356 --> 00:27:23,996 Speaker 1: for someone else to invest in it. All it has 409 00:27:24,036 --> 00:27:26,876 Speaker 1: to do is tell a really incredible story. And the 410 00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:29,556 Speaker 1: more obviously the story comes straight out of the pages 411 00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:36,156 Speaker 1: of science fiction the better. X dot Com described itself 412 00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 1: as an online bank, but its founders soon discovered that 413 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 1: people mostly wanted to use it as an online payment system. Meanwhile, 414 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:47,116 Speaker 1: Peter Teal had started a company called Confinity that could 415 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:51,556 Speaker 1: send payments between devices. Teal worked as a securities lawyer 416 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:55,156 Speaker 1: before helping to found Confinity. In nineteen ninety nine, the 417 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 1: company launched a service it called PayPal. If people were 418 00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:00,996 Speaker 1: going to buy things online, they needed to be able 419 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:03,756 Speaker 1: to pay for things online. As Teal saw it, they 420 00:28:03,756 --> 00:28:08,276 Speaker 1: were reinventing money. In two thousand, Confinity and X dot 421 00:28:08,276 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 1: Com merge. One thing Musk regrets is that the company's 422 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:18,436 Speaker 1: product got called PayPal instead of X. The founders of 423 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:22,076 Speaker 1: these companies became known as the PayPal Mafia because they 424 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:24,676 Speaker 1: made staggering sums of money when PayPal went public in 425 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:27,476 Speaker 1: two thousand and two and was later bought by eBay, 426 00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:30,116 Speaker 1: and then they went on to found their own venture 427 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:35,316 Speaker 1: capital companies, funding other startups, including YouTube and Facebook. X 428 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:45,196 Speaker 1: Capitalism was born a few years back. Elon Musk, nostalgic 429 00:28:45,236 --> 00:28:48,436 Speaker 1: about this time of his life, bought the domain X 430 00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:52,036 Speaker 1: dot com. There's just a little X there now on 431 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,156 Speaker 1: a blank page because the only thing in the source 432 00:28:55,196 --> 00:29:01,716 Speaker 1: code is the letter X. Mostly though, Musk used his 433 00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: money not to fund other people's ventures, but to start 434 00:29:04,996 --> 00:29:16,756 Speaker 1: a company of his own, a rocket company, SpaceX Next 435 00:29:16,756 --> 00:29:24,716 Speaker 1: Time on the Evening Rocket, blasting off to Mars. The 436 00:29:24,796 --> 00:29:28,316 Speaker 1: Evening Rocket was written and read by me Jillapoor for 437 00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:31,236 Speaker 1: the BBC. The Evening Rocket was produced by Viv Jones. 438 00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:34,916 Speaker 1: Oliver Riskin Cuts was the researcher. The editor was Hugh Levinson. 439 00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:39,076 Speaker 1: The commissioning editor was Dan Clark. Ionah Hammond was production coordinator. 440 00:29:39,476 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 1: Mixing by Graham put a Foot and original music by 441 00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:45,236 Speaker 1: Corn Tooth. For Pushkin, it was produced by Sophie Crane, 442 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:48,116 Speaker 1: mckibbon and Jake Gorski, who also did the mix and 443 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:52,396 Speaker 1: sound design. Production support from Ben Nattapafrick. Our executive producer 444 00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:56,996 Speaker 1: is Mielobell. Our operations team includes Daniella Lakhan, Maya Kanig, 445 00:29:57,036 --> 00:30:00,676 Speaker 1: and Carl Mgliori. Thanks also to John Schnar's Jacob Weisberg, 446 00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:04,436 Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Heather Faine, Nicole Moreno, and Eric Sandler.