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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Krola Atkins just fourteen years old,

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Speaker 1: Vicky Stout just sixteen. Think about it, that's the age

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Speaker 1: of my twins. Karla Atkins fourteen, Vicky Stout sixteen, gunshot

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Speaker 1: wounds to the heads. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Serius XM

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Speaker 1: one eleven. Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 2: A few weeks later, on October fifth, hikers were in

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Speaker 2: this area called Land between the Lakes where they smell

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Speaker 2: in odor. That's when they contacted the Sheriff's department. We're

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Speaker 2: deputies discovered the girl's bodies.

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Speaker 1: You were hearing our friends at Fox seventeen. And right

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Speaker 1: now I'm going to go to a special guest joining us.

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Speaker 1: This is Vicky and Carla's sister, Trish Gordon. Trish, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Trish. Do you remember when you learned Vicky and Carla

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Speaker 1: were missing?

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Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am, I was living in the next county over,

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Speaker 3: about thirty minutes away. I was at work that evening

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Speaker 3: and my brother Roger called me. It was just starting

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Speaker 3: to get dark outside and he said Mom wanted me

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Speaker 3: to call and tell you that Carl and VICKI walked

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Speaker 3: to the store of the road and they haven't come home.

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Speaker 3: Have you Have they been over there? You know? Have

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Speaker 3: you seen them? I'm like no, I'm like, surely they'll

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Speaker 3: be home later.

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Speaker 1: To which were they walking?

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Speaker 3: It was a little convenience store at the top of

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Speaker 3: the hill from where they lived the furnace.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. How far away was

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Speaker 1: the furnace from where they lived?

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Speaker 3: Less than a mile? It is just right up the hill.

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Speaker 3: It's less than a mile.

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Speaker 1: You're sending chills down my spine right now, because you know.

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Speaker 1: Let me go out to Chris McDonough, colleague and now

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Speaker 1: I believe friend, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, about three hundred homicide investigations under his belt,

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Speaker 1: and host. This is where I found him of a

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Speaker 1: YouTube channel called the Interview Room. You can find him

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Speaker 1: at Colcase Foundation dot org. This reminds me of actually

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Speaker 1: the first case we ever covered on Crime Stories. It

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Speaker 1: was the case of this beautiful little boy, Chucky Mawk

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Speaker 1: And one picture springs to mind. It's of him and

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Speaker 1: his little league outfit. Believe he was about two. Well,

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Speaker 1: he asked his mom who was now friend. Hey mom,

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Speaker 1: they just had supper. Chris McDonough and the mom, this

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Speaker 1: is very poignant, It sticks in my mind, had her

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Speaker 1: back to Chucky and she was washing dishes in the

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Speaker 1: sink and her hands were in the soapy water. He goes, Mom,

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Speaker 1: can I ride my bike to the store. She goes, sure,

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Speaker 1: hurry back. He said, I want to go get some candy,

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Speaker 1: And she says, to this day, why didn't I turn around?

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Speaker 1: To this day, that detail just drives her crazy. So

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Speaker 1: Chucky ridses his bike about a block and a half

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Speaker 1: to the store, and an adult male pulls up on

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Speaker 1: a car, exchanges words with him, and sheets him dead

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Speaker 1: right there in the store parking lot. Unsolved to this day,

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Speaker 1: Risk mcdonna.

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Speaker 4: You know, Nancy, these are the type of castes that

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Speaker 4: just irk every one of us in our society. The

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Speaker 4: innocence of youth, like the description you just gave of

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Speaker 4: that young child, and now these two poor little girls.

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Speaker 4: What we have to initially take a look at here

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Speaker 4: is what we would call the contact site, And in

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Speaker 4: this case, it sounds like it's that convenience store, the furnace,

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Speaker 4: and it's within a mile of where these young ladies live.

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Speaker 4: I would be curious to know what type of eyewitnesses

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Speaker 4: they may have in relationship to have seen, you know,

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Speaker 4: something around that time, because that would tell us about

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Speaker 4: a risk level to the particular type of suspect.

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Speaker 1: Also joining me Kara Porter, attorney, co founder cole Ca

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Speaker 1: Coalition at coldcasehelp dot Com. Karen, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just off the top of my head, I

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Speaker 1: can name so many cases. There was the went coal

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Speaker 1: but we just got it solved. The case of a

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Speaker 1: little girl, Debbie Randall, who went literally across the street

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Speaker 1: to the laundrymat and was never seen alive again until

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Speaker 1: she was found by volunteers. There is Aton Pats Member.

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Speaker 1: Aton walked to school for the first time after practicing

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Speaker 1: and practicing, and he was kidnapped and killed. There's Carly

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Speaker 1: brusha Carly in Florida was walking home from spend the

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Speaker 1: night with her little friend girl and was walking home

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Speaker 1: just blocks from her own home, and she cut caddy

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Speaker 1: cornered across the back of a car wash and she

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Speaker 1: was kidnapped and horribly sex assaulted and murdered. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I could go on and on and on a few blocks.

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Speaker 1: It's not that much, right, and then they're gone. And

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Speaker 1: in this case you hear the sister Trish Gordon, the

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Speaker 1: sister of Vicky and Carla. It was no distance at

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Speaker 1: all to the furnace. It's like a seven eleven type store.

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Speaker 1: And the parents, I'm sure, think, well that's just fine.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's and it wasn't uncommon. It's not uncommon.

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Speaker 5: I'm from the smaller town and you know, walking to

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Speaker 5: the local whatever the you know whatever the equivalent of

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Speaker 5: the local seven eleven is, you know, the furnace to

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Speaker 5: get whatever they were they were getting and then walking back.

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Speaker 5: That's that is something that happens every day. In one case,

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Speaker 5: we're a group of all volunteers. We've had about between

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Speaker 5: four hundred and six hundred families that have reached out

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Speaker 5: to us. But one of them was the mother was

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Speaker 5: looking out the back window and then an instant later

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Speaker 5: the child was gone.

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Speaker 1: That reminds you of the Samantha Running case. Samantha, three

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Speaker 1: years old, was staying with her grandmother and playing in

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Speaker 1: the front yard, I believe with other children, and the

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Speaker 1: pulls up, grabs her out of the front yard and

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Speaker 1: he's gone. Of course, molests her assaults her and kills her.

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Speaker 1: And I became friends with her mother, Aaron Runyon, And

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Speaker 1: it happened just like that, just like that, and you think, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just a block. You know, you don't want to

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Speaker 1: raise your child thinking that all these horrible things are

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Speaker 1: going to happen to them. To doctor Sherry Schwartz, joining

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Speaker 1: US forensic psychologist, author of criminal behavior and where law

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Speaker 1: and psychology intersect at panthermitigation dot com. Doctor Sherry, I'll

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Speaker 1: never forget when Lucy, I guess she was eleven or twelve,

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Speaker 1: said mom, Am, I ever going to get to go

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Speaker 1: on a walk by myself, just around the block. I'm like, sure,

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Speaker 1: of course you can. You can go right now. Can

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Speaker 1: I tell you how quickly I call my husband. It

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Speaker 1: was a nine to one one pronto call you follow

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Speaker 1: her that way, I'll follow her this way. And I

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Speaker 1: followed her. I telled her, you know, she never saw me.

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Speaker 1: And this went on for you know, a couple of years.

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Speaker 1: I'd follow her halfway and then David would pick her

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Speaker 1: up and see her the other way, and then she

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Speaker 1: would be home. See. I mean, it's crazy. You don't

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Speaker 1: want the child to grow up thinking they can't go

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Speaker 1: for a walk for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 6: That's true, But the harsh reality is all of us

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Speaker 6: are living in a world where we have to be

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Speaker 6: very careful because these are the things that can happen.

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Speaker 6: At the same time, you want your child to grow

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Speaker 6: up and feel like they have some independence, because that's

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Speaker 6: important to their growth in development. But then when something

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Speaker 6: like this happens, the families of these victims tend to

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Speaker 6: blame themselves. I should have done this. What if I

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Speaker 6: had done this? What if I just said no.

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Speaker 1: As code, Lucy's going for a walk. All hands on

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Speaker 1: deck when Lucy decides to go for a walk alone. Okay,

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Speaker 1: back to these two girls fourteen and sixteen. Think about it.

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Speaker 1: A gunshot won't to the head at age fourteen and sixteen? Guys,

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Speaker 1: what more do we know? Listen? It was three weeks.

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Speaker 7: Before the missing girls' bodies were found and evidence was collected.

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Speaker 7: One of the crime scene investigators at the time said

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Speaker 7: shotgun shells were found, as well as one of the

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Speaker 7: girl's flip flops. He said it was his belief that

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Speaker 7: she was running trying to get away. He also reported

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Speaker 7: finding a light blue stain on a tree. He says

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Speaker 7: the height at which the stain was found would indicate

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Speaker 7: came from a truck.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 7: It was three weeks before the missing girls' bodies were

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Speaker 7: found and evidence was collected. One of the crime scene

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Speaker 7: investigators at the time said shotgun shells were found, as

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Speaker 7: well as one of the girl's flip flops. He said

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Speaker 7: it was his belief that she was running trying to

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Speaker 7: get away. He also reported finding a light blue stain

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Speaker 7: on a tree. He says the height at which the

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Speaker 7: stain was found would indicate it came from a truck.

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Speaker 1: Wow, so we have the light blue stain. We have more,

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Speaker 1: but the case is going cold? Is going cold? How

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Speaker 1: can we stop that?

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Speaker 8: Sixteen year old Vicky Stout and fourteen year old Carlos

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Speaker 8: su Atkins were half sisters. They shared a mother. Vicky

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Speaker 8: Stout and Carlos wu Adkins were very close. They lived

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Speaker 8: with their mother, brothers, and sisters near Dover, Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: The two girls extremely close. Let's start friends at crime online.

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Speaker 8: Vicky Stout and Carlos whu Adkins rode the same bus

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Speaker 8: to school, even though they went to different schools. Carlos

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Speaker 8: sue was a student at Dover Elementary while Vicki was

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Speaker 8: a student at Stewart County High School. After school on

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Speaker 8: September seventeenth, Vicky Stout and Carlos who Atkins got off

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Speaker 8: their school bus and walked down to the combination bait

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Speaker 8: shop restaurant convenienced or called the Furnace and picked up

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Speaker 8: some snacks before continuing the walk to their house. It

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Speaker 8: was about three point thirty in the afternoon.

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Speaker 1: So the last people to see the girls say they

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Speaker 1: saw them talking to someone in a blue pickup truck.

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Speaker 1: It was at the Furnace, they like seven to eleven

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Speaker 1: and it circled the highway by the store. That's what

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Speaker 1: we know so far. Let me ask Amelia Courtney joining us.

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Speaker 1: Amelia has been working with sister Trish Gordon and she

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Speaker 1: is the co host of a hit podcast called Murder

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Speaker 1: at Land between the Lakes about this case. Amelia Courtney,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Is that where the

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Speaker 1: composite originated from the witnesses at the furnace?

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Speaker 9: The composite sketch did come from an eyewitness that did

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Speaker 9: talk to the police department in the sheriff's apartment. The

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Speaker 9: first composite sketch was actually released in nineteen eighty, but

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Speaker 9: it was a rough sketch, so they did have the

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Speaker 9: first rough sketch right away, and then later on in

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Speaker 9: twenty twenty they released updated sketches.

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Speaker 1: So the composite was made from eyewitnesses at the furnace,

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Speaker 1: which is like a bait shop seven to eleven, as

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Speaker 1: in fish bait. Is that right?

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Speaker 9: It came from another woman down the street. Actually she

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Speaker 9: saw something, okay, and she gave a detailed description of

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Speaker 9: the person that she saw in the truck.

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Speaker 1: Trish Gordon joining us, this is Vicki and Carla's sister.

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Speaker 1: Why did the police wait so long to speak to

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Speaker 1: witnesses and get that composite sketch?

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Speaker 3: That's a good question. That's a good question. They initially

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Speaker 3: told us it was within a day or two that

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Speaker 3: they thought vick and Carla had run away, So I

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Speaker 3: don't think they really did any searching initially, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know why they waited so long to come out

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Speaker 3: with a composite. I don't have that answer.

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Speaker 1: Okay, looking back on missteps, I agree with everyone, it's

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Speaker 1: not going to help us. Now we've got to move forward,

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Speaker 1: and so far, what we've got is a composite. We've

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Speaker 1: got a composite of the person last scene speaking to

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Speaker 1: the fourteen and sixteen year old Karla and VICKI. And

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Speaker 1: we know a blue truck, and we have the paint.

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Speaker 1: We have a paint scraping. I assume to leave climb

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Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter who found this case and

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Speaker 1: brought up to our attention, Levi Page, please tell me

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Speaker 1: the police got that blue scraping off of the tree

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Speaker 1: or wherever they saw it.

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Speaker 10: Yes, they did.

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Speaker 11: The crime zine investigators recovered it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lot you can tell from that. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner, explain

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Speaker 1: how the explain the process of getting, for instance, paint

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Speaker 1: or some substance off of an object and maintaining it.

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Speaker 1: Because you retrieve substances all day long, you have to

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Speaker 1: be very very careful.

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Speaker 12: Well, that's true, Nancy. You do have to be extremely careful.

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Speaker 12: The paint is very fragile and it can disintegrate, you know,

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Speaker 12: very quickly if it's not stored correctly. So the paint

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Speaker 12: has to be removed very delicately with small instruments that

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Speaker 12: are supplied to see USI or crime scene investigators, and

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Speaker 12: then that paint is put in an air tight container

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Speaker 12: it is dry, and then it is then sent to

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Speaker 12: forensics for the paint to be analyzed and the paint combination,

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Speaker 12: the paint composition of materials can be analyzed and you

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Speaker 12: can actually determine the make an approximate year of the

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Speaker 12: vehicle that the paint has come from. For instance, the

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Speaker 12: motor companies in Detroit use a certain paint for a

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Speaker 12: certain car during a certain period of time, and using

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Speaker 12: forensic analysis, you can take that paint and determine the

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Speaker 12: type of car. For instance, maybe it's a Ford motor

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Speaker 12: car built between say nineteen ninety seven and nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 12: so you can narrow it down that way. But the

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Speaker 12: storage of the paint, the careful removal of the paint

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Speaker 12: is critical in getting that analysis done.

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Speaker 1: Because Dodger, there's so many subtleties when it comes to

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Speaker 1: car paint. Okay, you see a car and you go,

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Speaker 1: oh it's blue. No, no, no, no. My son loves

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Speaker 1: F one fifties. Okay, he used to like a Taco Tacoma,

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Speaker 1: but now he's in the F one fifties and we

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Speaker 1: drive through. You know the lots of the car dealerships.

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Speaker 1: He goes, that's a great white and oh white. So

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Speaker 1: I looked up online. Guess what. There's optic white, there's

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Speaker 1: Oxford white, there's Ivory white. They all look white to me.

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Speaker 1: But the dealership knows the difference. One may have a

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Speaker 1: little sparkle in it. One may be Matt like Matt

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Speaker 1: m a tte lipstick that so the dealerships, the manufacturers,

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Speaker 1: they know the difference, ain't It can be traced to

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Speaker 1: a dealership. I mean, if you think that sounds far fetched,

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Speaker 1: you can even trace a trash bag that has a

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Speaker 1: body in it, like the one holding the body of

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Speaker 1: little Cally Anthony, to the manufacturer. You can get the

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Speaker 1: batch like this, six hundred bags were sent to this Kroger.

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Speaker 1: You can do that. It's not far fetched anymore. I

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Speaker 1: want to get back to this case. Guys, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to this.

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Speaker 13: Their mother reported something wrong to juvenile officers. That same day,

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Speaker 13: the missing girl's twenty two year old sister, Patricia Gordon,

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Speaker 13: received a call from her brother seeing the girls hadn't come.

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Speaker 5: Home, but she didn't worry yet.

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Speaker 14: Well, the next day I think I called and they

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Speaker 14: said they hadn't come back, and then that's kind of

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Speaker 14: when we started to panting.

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Speaker 13: A few days later, Gordon says her family started to

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Speaker 13: think the worst.

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Speaker 14: Then you realize something really bad has happened, you know,

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Speaker 14: but what's happened?

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Speaker 1: Hearing our friends at Fox seventeen and our special guest today,

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Speaker 1: let me go to Trish Gordon, Vicki and Carla's sister.

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Speaker 1: So at first first the mom thought, well, okay, they're

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Speaker 1: with friends. But then as the hours passed, everyone became

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Speaker 1: horribly worried. When did it sink in? Do you think

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Speaker 1: that they aren't just with a friend, They're not out

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Speaker 1: joy riding, they're not just staying late, they're not at

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Speaker 1: a movie, they're not at the mall. When did it

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Speaker 1: hit they're really gone?

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Speaker 3: Probably that next afternoon. They had never stayed away from

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Speaker 3: home all night like that and not contacted someone, you know,

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Speaker 3: they we called all their friends, they were with any

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Speaker 3: of their friends, you know, I hadn't seen them, so

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Speaker 3: they hadn't contacted mom. W in town had seen them

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Speaker 3: the ones that we had asked, and we knew because

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Speaker 3: Carlal was on medication that she had to take daily,

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Speaker 3: so we knew they left with nothing. She would have

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Speaker 3: taken her medicine with her had she not been meaning

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Speaker 3: to come home.

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Speaker 1: And from what I understand, they had never stayed out

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Speaker 1: overnight before without permission.

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Speaker 3: No never.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at w k r N. Here's mom, sister's

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Speaker 1: family worried where are the girls? Where are the girls?

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Speaker 14: And then this we kind of thought maybe they were

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Speaker 14: just with some friends, just decided not to come back

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Speaker 14: home when they should have.

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Speaker 15: In the days that followed, local law enforcement labeled the

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Speaker 15: sisters as runaway, covering it from the start. David R.

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Speaker 16: Ross, there was this three weeks van where the girls

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Speaker 16: were missing. The initial reports where that they were run away.

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Speaker 15: Autopsy reports show they both died of a shotgun wounded

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Speaker 15: a head to LEVI page, was the bullet found?

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Speaker 11: Yes, bullets were found and it was from a twelve

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Speaker 11: gage shotgun.

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Speaker 1: There is the ni T Ballistics tool Mark research database

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Speaker 1: and it is an open access research database of bullet

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Speaker 1: and cartridge case tool mark data. Do we know, Amelia

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Speaker 1: whether these shotgun shit anything to do with shotgun? Bullets

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Speaker 1: have been run through the ballistics database.

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Speaker 9: Miss Anthia, I don't know if they have done that.

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Speaker 9: I know they found they had a wad left and

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Speaker 9: they have they had they did find shotgun shelves and

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Speaker 9: they had bullets like they were scattered around and some

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Speaker 9: are collected. And right now they still have some evidence

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Speaker 9: that's being tested.

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Speaker 1: What evidence would that be? Do you know?

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Speaker 9: I'm not provy to say right now.

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Speaker 1: So you know, but you can't say. To Chris mcdona,

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Speaker 1: director Cold Case Foundation in the interview room, jump in.

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Speaker 4: Important to understand why the contact site is so critical

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Speaker 4: in this case because it tells us a lot about

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Speaker 4: why the individual who did this put the girls in

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Speaker 4: the location they were found here, and here's where I'm

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Speaker 4: going with this. You have an eyewitness who sees this

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Speaker 4: blue truck and so that that end of itself is

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Speaker 4: a risk to the suspect. So they we measure the

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Speaker 4: day of the week. It's a Wednesday, middle of the week,

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Speaker 4: the time three point thirty in the afternoon. So this suspect,

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Speaker 4: it's going to tell that those facts are going to

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Speaker 4: tell us this individual is very comfortable in that area.

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Speaker 17: And now when we.

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Speaker 4: Go back to where the shotgun shows are found and

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Speaker 4: we look at the truck.

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Speaker 17: Back in that time, it was not unusual to have

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Speaker 17: a gun rack within, you know, vehicles all over, probably

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Speaker 17: in Middle Tennessee, especially in a small town of of

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Speaker 17: two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I got another question on this. Everything that Chris

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Speaker 1: McDonough just said is correct in trying to coral the purp.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Trish Gordon, do we know if your sisters

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Speaker 1: were raped?

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Speaker 3: According to the autopsy report, they said that there was

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Speaker 3: no evidence of it.

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Speaker 1: Where they clothed when their bodies were found.

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Speaker 3: Partially and they tell us that probably animals had taken

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Speaker 3: clothing off. I think one body was probably had more

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Speaker 3: clothing on it than the other one.

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Speaker 1: That all really depends on how the clothing was removed

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Speaker 1: and where the clothing was found. Doctor Tim Gallagher explained, well.

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Speaker 12: Generally when a rape occurs, especially a rape and a

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Speaker 12: homicide occurred, that the underwear and pants are removed, and

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Speaker 12: then sometimes your shirt is lifted up over the and

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Speaker 12: that the body is left that way. You know. One

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Speaker 12: of the other things that I wanted to point out

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Speaker 12: to your last question about the about the niben and

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Speaker 12: the shotgun, is that, unlike a rifle or a handgun,

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Speaker 12: where you pull the trigger once and one bullet comes out.

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Speaker 12: In a shotgun, you pull a trigger once and a

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Speaker 12: spray of sometimes hundreds of little bebes come out. And

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Speaker 12: so running one of those little bbes through NIBIN is

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Speaker 12: going to be useless because there's no rifling marks on it.

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Speaker 12: There's no unique characteristics, you know, to that projectile that

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Speaker 12: niving can use to help identify where it came from.

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Speaker 12: So when you pull a trigger on a handgun, one

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Speaker 12: bullet comes out. You pull a trigger on a rifle,

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Speaker 12: one bullet comes out. You pull a trigger on a shotgun,

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Speaker 12: hundreds hundreds of metallic projectiles come out at the same time.

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Speaker 12: So tracing that through NIVEN is going to be extremely difficult,

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Speaker 12: if not impossible. I don't even think it's been done yet.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're absolutely right. So all our discussion of ballistics

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Speaker 1: was pointless but had to be done. As in every

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Speaker 1: investigation you have to go all the way. Guys, I'm

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Speaker 1: hearing that I was about to go to great minds. Haha.

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Speaker 1: Toby Wilson is with US forensic consultant specializing in DNA

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Speaker 1: serology and bloodstain at no Slow Forensic dot Com. Toby

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Speaker 1: jump In well.

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Speaker 10: I was just going to say, Niven's not going to

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Speaker 10: assist you with the identification on this one in terms

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Speaker 10: of the lead spray that comes out. But what they

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Speaker 10: can work from is the shotgun shell if they retrieved it,

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Speaker 10: because mark is left on the base of that shell

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Speaker 10: by the pin of the shotgun when it slams into

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Speaker 10: it to cause the explosion of the gunpowder in it

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Speaker 10: and the propelling of the cup in projectiles forward. If

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Speaker 10: they have the shell, there's a possibility of comparing that

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Speaker 10: back to particular shotgun and saying, yes, this shotgun fired

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Speaker 10: the shell.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, guys, what more do we know? Take

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Speaker 1: a list to hour cut nine our friends at Fox seventeen.

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Speaker 13: The autopsy revealed a shotgun killed the girls. Their bodies

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Speaker 13: were too decomposed to reveal if they'd been sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 13: An artist sketch with age progressions should demand described by

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Speaker 13: witnesses seen driving that blue pickup truck with the girls.

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Speaker 13: We're last seen. The TBI agent heading the investigation at

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Speaker 13: that time, Jack Charlton, believed the sketch could be the

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Speaker 13: girl's abductor, murderer or witness.

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Speaker 14: I'm like, weel, this won't take any time at all.

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Speaker 14: You know, they're going to find who did this, wrap

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Speaker 14: it up, and it's done with Well.

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Speaker 1: That is my hope. But the fact that there's an

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Speaker 1: age progression composite sketch is very heartening to Amelia Courtney

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Speaker 1: worked king with Trish Gordon, the sister of Karla and

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Speaker 1: VICKI co host a murder at Land between the Lakes.

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Speaker 1: What do you believe is the strongest lead?

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Speaker 9: Well, miss Nanty, I think that this case is definitely solvable,

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Speaker 9: and that's why we started the podcast. From the beginning

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Speaker 9: was when we first my co host Landy Sullivan and

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Speaker 9: I first started this podcast. We you know, I knew

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Speaker 9: Trish and her family, and I saw that there was

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Speaker 9: nothing being done on this case. There was no information

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Speaker 9: to be found, and it was heartbreaking to me that

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Speaker 9: these two sisters had been you know, violently murdered and

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Speaker 9: there was hardly any information to be found.

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Speaker 11: So when we came.

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Speaker 9: To Trish and started the podcast, we went into it

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Speaker 9: and it was hard to find information from, you know,

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Speaker 9: the authorities, and but once we started opening up line

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Speaker 9: of communication with the public and the community, they started

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Speaker 9: giving us information lesson right and and that's when we

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Speaker 9: started trying to talk to General Crouch and the tv

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Speaker 9: I and trying to form a partnership with him, or

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Speaker 9: not really partnership, but open line of communication with them,

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Speaker 9: so we could really give them the information we were

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Speaker 9: receiving and you know, without you know, harming the integrity

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Speaker 9: of the podcast and also you know, keep our sources

435
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 9: you know safe, and also you know, you know, respect

436
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 9: the wishes of the tv I as well. So that's

437
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 9: how you know our podcast, you know, really you know,

438
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 9: was helpful in you know, getting information and helping work

439
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 9: on solving this case. We were able to get a

440
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 9: lot of information from the public that didn't want to

441
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 9: share information with the police because I'm not sure the

442
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 9: trust was there from the beginning. So there is one

443
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 9: more eyewitness that we didn't even know about until just recently,

444
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 9: about a year ago. There was another eyewitnessed form I

445
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 9: guess you would say, that was found in a file

446
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 9: that no one had heard about or seen about. And

447
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 9: this eye witness, as you stated earlier, saw the blue

448
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 9: truck that did have the rifle rack in the back

449
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 9: of it behind it and was able to see the

450
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 9: driver even more clearly and gave a better description of

451
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 9: the driver saw the girls talking to the driver as

452
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 9: though they did know the person, and saw the girls

453
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 9: get in the truck and was able to give, like

454
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 9: I said, a better description. And this eyewitness statement was

455
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 9: pretty pretty, I mean was pretty This person seemed to

456
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 9: have a pretty accurate description of what they saw.

457
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: So we've narrowed it down based on what everyone on

458
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: this panel has deduced to a local mail in a

459
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: truck with a gun rack blue in color. The girls

460
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: actually got in to the truck. Take a listen to

461
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: our friend Jackie Howard.

462
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 7: In twenty eleven, Stuart County Sheriff Derek White came on

463
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 7: board and the search began anew for a suspect. Four

464
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 7: years later, the DA says there are now three or

465
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 7: four people that investigators are highly interested in and have

466
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 7: narrowed down a pool of suspects.

467
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: Is this true, LEVI page? Is there a short list

468
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 1: of pois persons of interest?

469
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 11: Yes, Nancy. Over the last handful of years, there has

470
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 11: been news articles, a podcast about this case. It's there's

471
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 11: been a new energy breathed into this case, and new

472
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 11: witnesses have come forward and they have been able to

473
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 11: narrow it down to a list of persons of interest.

474
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: That's amazing to me, Trish Gordon. I'm not going to

475
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: ask you who, but do you know who's on the list? Ah?

476
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am.

477
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: Does the list make sense to you, Trish? Are they

478
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: locals that lived in the area that had a truck

479
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: blue and collar at the time your sisters were murdered?

480
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely.

481
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: I mean, how many people can it be? How many

482
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: people are in that small area with a blue truck

483
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: with a gun rack living there, mail in the driving

484
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: age range and beyond all the day the two girls

485
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: were murdered. How hard can it be? That's my question,

486
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: Trish Gordon.

487
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. And you know, I

488
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: think it's very obvious. Do most people there as to

489
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: who the suspects, suspect or suspects are? I think it's

490
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: very obvious.

491
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: It's obvious to me to Chris McDonough, director Cole Case

492
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: Foundation in the interview room jump in.

493
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 4: So my assessment of what I've heard here today is

494
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 4: pretty clear that probably within one hundred the first one

495
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty pages of the initial investigation, the suspect

496
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 4: is known. And I think because of the fact that

497
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 4: there's a rural community. It's a logging community, and it's

498
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 4: such a small residential area ie. Two thousand people at

499
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 4: the time that this individual has been hiding in plain sight.

500
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 4: And to raise awareness like this, you have now a

501
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: conversation about eyewitnesses who've actually seen people, you have touched DNA.

502
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: Potentially even on the back of a shotgun show you

503
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: can pull off fingerprints because somebody had to load that shotgun.

504
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 4: If they don't have DNA, they may have fingerprints evidence

505
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: that they could continue to go after or even with

506
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 4: today's technology, it's improved since the date of this incident.

507
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 4: So my belief is this individual is nearby. He's been

508
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 4: in that community within thirty miles would be my assessment,

509
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 4: and I one hundred percent believe that he could be

510
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 4: brought to if the individual is still alive today.

511
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: Guys, hold on, take a listen to our friends WPSD

512
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: and kr N.

513
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 14: And I don't know how they can live with themselves,

514
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 14: but they're able to live day to day, and we

515
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 14: still have this question mark of who and.

516
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 16: Why I would like to see not only justice for

517
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 16: this family, but justice for this community.

518
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: They will get there.

519
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 14: Justice someday, you know, they'll get what's coming to them,

520
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 14: whether it be in my lifetime or not.

521
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: The District Attorney General Ray Crouch has now put new

522
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: efforts into solving this case and evidence has been sent

523
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: for a private DNA lab testing to Toby Wilson. What

524
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: if anything can be learned from specific and highly highly

525
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: technical DNA testing, Well.

526
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 10: There's a lot that can be learned. It just depends

527
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 10: on the quality of the DNA being tested. But as

528
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 10: time has progressed at the beginning of the DNA and analysis

529
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 10: to today, we've been able to work with more and

530
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 10: more DNA that is low grade quality, very very degraded.

531
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 10: And there's new technologies that are allowing this to be done,

532
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 10: such as sniff technologies and new next generation sequencing things

533
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 10: of that nature. There's even some work going on at

534
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 10: the DNA repair that might make it possible. And what

535
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 10: makes this obvious that we can do this is just

536
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 10: a few weeks ago two more people from the World

537
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 10: Trade Center attack in ninety eleven were identified using some

538
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 10: of these newer technologies. So as time progresses, the DNA degrades,

539
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 10: especially if it's not handled properly well it's being stored,

540
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 10: But we are developing new technologies that allow us to

541
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 10: work with more and more samples that are degraded. The

542
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 10: problem is that if they become two degraded there probably

543
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 10: it's irreversible. So it really depends on the quality of

544
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 10: the DNA being used. And the reason it gets sent

545
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 10: to private labs is these new technologies. Most public labs

546
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 10: don't have them now. They're very expensive. It takes time

547
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 10: to get them quality reviewed so that you can use

548
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 10: them in criminal cases. So the private labs have the

549
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 10: ability to move forward faster because they have the money

550
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 10: and they have that they can get the technology, and

551
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 10: they have the people to get these things reviewed so

552
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 10: that they can use them for their casework. So that's

553
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 10: why you send it to a private lab these days.

554
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 10: But ultimately, somewhere down the road, hopefully public labs will

555
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 10: be doing these same types of analysis.

556
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 7: Also, Nancy gets Jackie, can I jump in, go ahead,

557
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 7: jump in, Trish, weren't you told that DNA might be

558
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 7: too degraded to be used?

559
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: Yes, early on they tell them. They told me that

560
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 3: the TBI told me that a lot of it is molded,

561
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure if it was the white stored.

562
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: Initially we were told it was put in plastic bags,

563
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 3: and then some state was put in piper bags, so

564
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: we're not sure. But that's a lot of the hold

565
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: up with testing the DNA is because we tell most

566
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: of it is molded well.

567
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 10: The bacteria is a contamination that can break down the DNA.

568
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 10: So it really is one of those situations you don't

569
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 10: know how much of an effect it will have until

570
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 10: you try the testing. There are ways to clean up

571
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 10: some of it, but they may not be usable depending

572
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 10: on how much damage has been done. I've seen really

573
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 10: nasty samples, bad samples that you would have never predicted.

574
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 10: Give DNA profiles, get work from them. The only way

575
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 10: you're ever going to know the answer is you have

576
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 10: to do it.

577
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: Carola Kim's just fourteen years old, Vicky Stout just sixteen,

578
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds to the heads. Think about it, what that

579
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: family had to go through. Let me go out to

580
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: Trish Gordon, this is Vicky and Carla's sister.

581
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for doing this for my family. And

582
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 3: what I would like people to know is that they

583
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: were happy, go lucky. They loved to laugh, love to

584
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 3: have fun, never a sad day. They were just the happiest,

585
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: happiest two individuals you could ever want to be around.

586
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 3: Over the years, I had kind of lost hope in

587
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 3: the case because it had gone cold. But my hope

588
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: is renewed now with the help of Amelia's podcasts, the

589
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: new district attorney, new TBI agents, help of the FBI.

590
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: So I do, I do have hope now. I know

591
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: there are individuals there that know who did this, and

592
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: I think there's just that one person that needs to

593
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: come forward, just one person to tell the story of

594
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: what they know. I think we're just waiting for that

595
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 3: one last piece of evidence to go along with what

596
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: we have to finally bring him to justice. And yes,

597
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 3: he's still alive.

598
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 7: If you have information related to the deaths of Carla

599
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 7: Atkins and Vicky Stout, you can contact the Covington Police

600
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 7: Department at nine oh one four seven five one two

601
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 7: sixty one or email Covington Police Department at covingtontn dot com.

602
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: We wait as justice some foals. Goodbye friend,