WEBVTT - Brian Reed Thought "S-Town" Could Only Ever Be a Cult Show 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:06.920 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.960 My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:16.400 hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:22.400 their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Good stories teach 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:26.640 us about people. Great ones alter the way we see ourselves. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.080 For many, the new podcast s Town has done just that. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.640 The seven episode series from the folks who brought us 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.879 Serial and This American Life, provides a window into the 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:43.960 world of an eccentric Alabama horologist named John B. McLemore. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:50.520 Released on March, it reached critical acclaim almost instantly, garnering 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:55.200 sixteen million downloads in the first seven days. But to 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.840 focus on its commercial success would be missing the point. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:03.320 S Town isn't about celebrity, viral tweets, or even the 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:07.400 alleged Alabama murder that led host and producer Brian Reid 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.920 to McLamore in the first place. The front door of 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.520 the house opens and a man comes bounding out of it. 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:20.600 I found it nice to meet you. There's no nice 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.640 to meet you back, No how you do in no handshake. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.160 John just takes off around the side of the house 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.200 with a pack of dogs following him. She's like the same. Next. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:36.800 It's about a brilliant, cynical man whose very existence challenges 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:42.479 modern notions of masculinity, homophobia, and mental illness. A man 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:45.240 who had a story to tell, just not the one 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.840 he thought. As the world continues to devour s Town, 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.880 I sat down with Brian Reid to talk about the 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.040 critical acclaim the series has received. I don't know. I'm 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:56.880 getting a taste of it and I'm and I'm enjoying 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:58.559 it and I'm grateful to people like it. It doesn't 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.280 feel overwhelming, you know. Do you also feel it's an 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.800 enormous opportunity for you to channel this energy into you 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:06.640 big production deal and get things going and start making 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.320 some more content. Oh maybe I don't know, Maybe I 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:11.560 should be thinking that way. I mean, I'm back in 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:13.160 my day job right now. I work at this American 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.520 life and I'm just making stories now work. Yeah, Like, 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.800 the day after this came out, Ira was like, are 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.239 you back at work tomorrow? Like, basically, I've been gone 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.200 for a year on hiatus, and they wanted to who 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.400 are you? I knew you were. I'm sorry, but when 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.600 you did this, you obviously didn't predict the success. No. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.280 I thought it was going to be if anything, like 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.760 a cultish thing. And I started working on this even 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.680 before Cereal was out, you know, so like or invented, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.600 they were just started starting serial. So tell us that, Um, 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.040 what is s Town? And I mean, what is it 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.280 for a listener in an encapsulated kind of Uh? If 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.280 if there was the equivalent of TV guide like radio guide, 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.600 what would you say in a pithy para. It's really hard. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.520 We struggled with this because there's certain things you don't 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.200 want to tell about the story. You want people to 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.400 learn them in the story. So that's been challenging because 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.800 it's a story that shifts a number of times throughout it. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.000 Things happened that change that kind of the story shifts 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.880 underneath It happened underneath my feet in real life as 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.120 I was reporting it, but then also as that story. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.760 That's what we've tried to reflect in the story as well. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.400 But it's about a man named John B. McLamore who 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.280 contacted me. Um, he contacted you. He wrote our show, 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.680 and I saw his email and responded. He says in 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.919 his first email, I'm a longtime listener who recently started 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.520 listening again, which is sometimes crazy to be this whole 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.440 seven part. The thing is just about a listener, you know, 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.320 like of which we have millions, which is nuts. But um, yeah, 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.000 he'd been hearing the show and um he heard a 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.240 couple in particular stories we've done. Um I Rea did 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.840 a story um investigating a judge and some possible malfeasance 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.960 that a judgment UM doing in rural Georgia. He'd heard 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.080 that story and in a show we did called getting 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.240 Away with It, which actually wasn't investigated at all, but 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.640 I think the title caught his attention. And uh, and 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.840 he wanted us to come down and investigate some wrongdoing 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:00.600 that he said was going on in his small town 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:04.760 in Alabama. So he reaches out to you. He talks 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.280 to you first. He wrote our general account, I want 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.200 to alert your producers to some stuff that's going on 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.040 in my town. And the and the subject line was 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.520 John by McLamore lives in Shiptown, Alabama. That was his title. 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.200 It was a liveliness to it, there was he had 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:18.960 you with that subject. Yeah, and there was a liveliness 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.599 to it, even even like the capitalization was erratic in 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.400 a way, that caught my attention in the email, and 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:25.880 then you know, he said, I would hope that you 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:27.880 guys could come down here and investigate some of the 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.640 terrible things that are going on in this ship town 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.320 would Stock, Alabama and bib County, Alabama. And he mentioned, 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.440 um two incidents, one of which was this murder that 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:41.080 he said had taken place, Um that a local kind 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.880 of rich kid had allegedly beating someone to death and 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.080 then was out bragging about it, had not gone to jail, 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.440 gotten away with it. And so that's what he was 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.880 telling us about. But it was also like just generally, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:54.080 you need to check this place out. It's so fucking terrible. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.280 Like that was like the general vibe with a couple 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.760 of examples. But I would imagine that beyond the kind 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.080 of fulk Ner esque tableau of the area, you know, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.400 I mean this kind of southern idol and the crazy 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.080 characters and the and and the implication of some crime 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.919 or some evil or what have you, I would imagine 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.520 that you must get variations of that pitch to you 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.440 all the time. We do. Yeah, that one made you 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.120 what what was it about this when they made you go, Okay, 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:21.840 let's go down so the next thing is should go 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:23.880 down there. Correct. Well, I talked to him for a 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.640 while in the phone. It took a year for me 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:26.800 to get on the phone with him because it was 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.839 not a priority for me, like I was working on 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.239 other stuff that seem more real, you know. And then 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:32.919 eventually we got on the phone because he sent me 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.800 like a news report about some actual police corruption that 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.640 had actually happened, which reminded me that I should check 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.360 in with this guy you call him in what happens. 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.640 I mean, we talked about the alleged murderer, but then 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.719 also he just starts talking about his life in general. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.280 He you know, he's forty eight at the time we 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.279 started talking, I think around there, late forties, um, And 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.159 he'd lived there his entire life, in this town of 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.000 people are less. He'd never left. He desperately hated it. 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.000 He wanted to leave, but wouldn't leave if he lived 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:02.560 there alone, in the house he'd grown up in that 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.000 had been there for centuries, in a century and a half, 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.080 you know, with his mother who had dementia who we 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.359 took care of, and you know, a large number of 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.280 dogs fluctuating between thirteen and twenty one dogs and he 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.760 built a giant hedge maze in his backyard. I mean, 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.800 he was, he was. It was just one of those 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:22.160 conversations where, yeah, I was getting the information about the murder, 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.520 the alleged murder, but also he seemed to be going 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.839 through something in talking to me. It wasn't even just details, 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.280 like all those details are interesting, but he was wrestling 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.240 with the fact that he had never left this place. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.680 He despised and that caught my attention and I was yeah, 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.599 and I was like, maybe there's a murderer. If there's 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:41.919 a murder, this guy is part of it. This is 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.120 what makes the story special. You know, it was always 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:45.880 going to be. He was a big part of it 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.200 from the get go. I mean, that's interesting to me 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.760 that when you you talked to this guy on the phone, 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.320 he's a good talker, and he's compelling, and his voice 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.120 is so kind of theatrical, and I know you're telling 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.440 yourself this, this has some possibilities. We are a radio show, absolutely, 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:01.640 you know, I mean you need I mean, in order 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.360 for a radio story to work, you need a good 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.599 talk sound like. That's the phrase that said many times 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.560 in our office. Every day of this American life is 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:10.280 he a good talker, and a story can live or 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.080 die on that. A story that in a pitch on 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.960 a piece of paper, UM, could have all the beats 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.680 of an interesting story and surprise, we'll call him, do 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.000 a pre interview with someone and it just doesn't live. 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:21.880 You need a good talker to you know, great stories 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:23.840 happen to those. So a year goes by between when 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:25.880 you first picked this up when you call him, how 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:27.760 much time goes by after that from when you first 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.520 go down there. We talked on the phone for I think, 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:33.880 you know, eight to ten months, because I was working 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.120 on other stuff and I did try to see if 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.720 I could find anything about this murder from Afar. Basically 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:40.880 I was doing just getting into the court system and 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.760 stuff UM and I couldn't and eventually got to the 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:45.680 point where like, I just need to go down there. 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:47.760 But in the course of that I would be checking 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:49.840 in with John, and we invariably had these very long 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.360 conversations that were about much more than the murder. So 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:54.280 we're getting to know each other, you know. I got 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.440 to know about his obsession with climate change and about 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.560 this relationship that he had with these um you know, 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.480 this local guy that worked on his property. That was 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.520 interesting to me, Like there were just elements where it's 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.080 just like I want to go. He's the other protective. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.960 Um what what was the root of his obsession with 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.680 climate change? What was he because of changes that were 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.040 happening down there? I don't know for sure, and I 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.880 didn't talk about. My sense is that what I've been 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.800 told this isn't in the story, is that, Um, he 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.360 got a computer only in the last few years of 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.280 his life, and stay the last five years someone at 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.400 town Hall hooked him up with an old computer before. 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.320 I mean, he was incredibly intelligent and in touch with 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.960 the world. Um, but like I think he had like 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.600 books shipped to him from the library is how he 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:41.360 did it. Um, but he he was given a computer. 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.920 And I think my sense is that the climate change 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.199 and energy and peak oil fixations, and you know, him 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.160 teaching himself about that, like he really went down some 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.720 rabbit holes with the computer. But it's interesting. I wonder 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.640 also how he's so connected to the land to borrow 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:00.240 that cliche that he knows sort of to notice changes 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:01.439 in that. Yeah, and I think you're I mean, he 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.240 would talk about like I'm seeing less butterflies, you know, 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.559 he would notice things like that things are getting brown er, 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.520 we haven't had rain in this long so yeah, I 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.560 think that was party was very connected to his environment. Yeah, 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.440 so you go down and meet him for the first 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.960 time and describe that situation. It's just me. That's one 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:19.800 of the great things about radio reporting. It's super lean. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:21.320 You don't need like a film crew, you don't need 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.560 the Golden Hour. Yeah, but it's just like a little 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.080 kid that I'm paying on my neck in a tiny 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:28.439 you know, like a medium sized microphone. So it's pretty 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.120 like I'm just in my car rental car. I mean, 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.240 it's it's pretty much as I described in the story, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.240 like I missed his house, you know, the first time 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:40.920 pass Birmingham, um, like forty five minutes rent a car 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:46.240 for if miss to an hour gets pretty I mean, 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.520 it's the kind of the beginning of like rural part 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.240 of West Alabama. Like they're they're the first county kind 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.199 of after you leave Jefferson County, which has um Birmingham 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.120 and Bessemer, which is kind of like the you know, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.080 the end of the Metro era, I'd say, is my 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.719 understanding of it. You're driving, you're driving kind of southwest 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.080 out of Birmingham, UM, but it's bib Counties kind of 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.200 between Birmingham and Tuscaloose are these two kind of like 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.280 things on each their cities on either side that are 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.440 each about forty five minutes outside. He'd give me directions, 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.520 but he was like Google Maps doesn't really work, like 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.080 you should use latitude and longitude would be more helpful. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.360 So I put that into Google Maps. Yeah, exactly. I 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.800 had you know, a compass with me. Missed his house 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.600 because it's just a little like driveway path through the woods. 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.840 Eventually like came back by and went down there, like 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.880 I think it was feet into the woods, and then 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.240 you had this clearing and it is this very old house. 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.160 And you know, I've been in Alabama once before, kind 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.280 of just passing through, and I've been in the South before, 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.040 and but I was kind of just like, all right, 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.400 well maybe this is just like a normal house and 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.520 like place to live in the South. This land that's 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.720 like this house in the middle of a clearing. You know, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:52.800 that's very old. But I've since you know, spent a 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:54.120 lot of time in Alabama and talked to a lot 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.680 of people and everyone who know, even lifelong residents of Alabama. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.319 I said, no, that place is not normal. When I 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:00.880 first went to John, that was like, where the hell 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.400 am I like, I'm stepping back in time? That That's 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.800 what's curious to me, is I mean, I'm not I 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.840 don't want to say. He sounded to me and I 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.319 only experienced him on your show and his voice in 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.360 your show, and he sounded to me like he was 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.880 pretty wound up and pretty intense, and he's very colorful 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.800 in a way that would make me entertained by him 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.600 alternately and concerned about him alternately. So when you go 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:23.760 down there, you're not nervous, You're not worried for your safety. 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.240 I wasn't worried for my safety. I was a little 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:29.840 you know, I was aware that I was going somewhere 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.200 kind of off the grid. You know. I don't remember 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.400 being conserned my safety with John. I don't mean you've 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:37.760 spoken to him so many times trust with him, Yeah, 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.600 I guess so. Um, But he certainly was very intense 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.280 and he was exhausting to be with, you know, both 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.800 thrilling and could be frustrating and exhausting, you know, like 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.800 his it wasn't like a normal interview, like what we're 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:52.839 doing right now, Like I could not get him to 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:54.280 do that. You know, there were a couple of times 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.360 I tried to sit down and just talk to him, 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.240 and he was just he couldn't sit there and talk. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.800 Do you attribute too, I think it's his personality and 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.920 whether that's you know, certain mental health issues or as 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.320 I talk about in the story, there's a question of 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.960 mercury poisoning. Yeah. I wasn't nervous, but it was like 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.679 just really trying to get a grasp on like you know, 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.680 like you know, you're reporting, you don't just like normally 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.240 let someone talk. That's not reporting, you know what I mean? 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.240 Like you have questions and you have a focus, and 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:24.960 where were those questions and what was the focus when 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.360 you began well with him? I mean, like I definitely 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.360 was like, you know, we've got to do this murder 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.920 investigation stuff. So were certain steps I wanted to take, 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.960 you know, that were seemed safe but defined with him. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:37.960 But then I was also open to like, I'm interested 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:39.439 in him in his life. I want to talk to 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.280 him about his life. I'm interested in this relationship he 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.240 started to tell me about with Tyler Goodson and some 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.480 of the locals there, So hopefully I'll get to like 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.640 get inside that a little bit. So that was those 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.600 were all kind of like through lines in my head, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.000 you know, as I'm down there. But then he had 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.839 his own agendas to like, well, he wanted to teach 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.320 me about climate change. Like he literally, like the second 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:00.520 morning I was there, you know, called him. I'm like, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.080 I'm up, I'm going to drive over there. You know, 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.000 I was staying like fifteen or two minutes away, and 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:05.760 he's like, Okay, I'm preparing a lecture for you on 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.160 climate change. I timed it, it's like five minutes. It 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.280 will only take twenty minutes. But did you sense he 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.000 wanted to teach you out of some kind of intellectual 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.640 vanity or was he the Obi wan Kenobi of climate 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.000 change and want you to run out and go fight 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.440 the fight somewhere? What did the artic constantly had this 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.520 feeling with John where in all my time knowing him 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.280 and to this day, his mind and his ability to 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:29.680 understand particularly science, um was so beyond mine. Like like 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.319 what he would talk about climate change, it was I 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.520 could get like two percent of it. And so I 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.520 constantly have this feeling of like either he is a 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.120 freaking profit or completely looney. I have no idea, and 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.520 it could be either at any points either I still 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.280 don't know, I mean, and I I hired to research 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.280 her to look into like a lot of his writings 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.839 on climate change, like to try and figure that out. 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.880 At one point it's I mean, it was so complicated, 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.840 like basically it seems like he's right. He's not like 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.920 putting factual and accuracies in these in his theories, but 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.280 he is. The general sense I got after the researcher 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.560 looked into it was that, um like he you know, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.199 he's he's choosing things to focus on that serve his thesis, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.520 you know, that serve his negative worldview. So you start 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.440 with him down this path of exploring the crime, and 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.440 then you find out that none of it is what 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.320 it was purported to be. Some of it is, but 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.760 one important detail is different, important detail different. When you 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.600 discover that, what prevents you from just packing up and 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.000 leaving and going we're done. I discovered it after I 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.400 So I did a visit there in October, but I 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.320 didn't actually really put it all, like come to the 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:46.040 conclusion of that until early summer. I still was interested 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.160 in him. He had other pieces of corruption that he 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.120 was telling me about. I was like maybe. And I 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.600 was interested in his relationship with Tyler Goodson, and so 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:55.200 I was like, Okay, maybe they I'll look into one 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.000 of these other things. Because what he was telling me 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.800 it happened. Everyone in town believed it. It happened exactly 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.520 as he told me. He didn't make it up. It 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.600 was just that, you know, one important detail was different 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.600 that didn't make it as bad of a crime as 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.440 he had said it was. So I was talking to 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.040 him like, I'm gonna come back down there. You know, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:13.640 there are a couple of loose ends I wanted to 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.440 put to bed with this initial murder investigation, um, and 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.240 then just talk to him, you know, like kind of 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.400 get inside his and Tyler's relationship a little bit more. Um, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.840 possibly look at another piece of corruption or you know, 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.600 wrongdoing that he was telling me about. So that was 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.000 in like June. We were having these conversations. I was 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:30.480 working on a big story that was coming on on 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.800 July four, and I was like, right after July four, John, 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:35.120 I want to come back down there, you know. And 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.360 he was all like, um, oh my god, it's gonna 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:38.920 be the dead of summer. It's gonna be so hot, 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:40.720 and I need to get the house cleaner out here, 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:42.360 and it's the house is full of fleas and oh 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.160 my gosh, and I'm gonna have to prune the maze 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.080 and gracious. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I don't 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:47.920 worry about to worry about it. So right after July 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.720 four and then he he, um, I guess we're not 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.320 talking about this. That's the truck tricky part. But he 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.240 did the thing that he does in the story on 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.000 June two, and so that, um, do you do? You 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.000 want to tell it? You because you want to? Can 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:02.880 you tell people to maybe you like, go with the 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:04.720 show first before I say that was the next part. Yeah, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.880 we're gonna stop here. Here's where you press pause, pause 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.680 now and go listen to S Town, which in total 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.440 is what six hours or six and change. Yeah, and 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.360 we mean it. If you haven't listened to S Town 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.960 and don't want more details about what happens, stop listening 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.280 to this right now. Go download S Town and come 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:31.680 back here in six hours if you are sticking with us. 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.360 Coming up, Brian Reid reveals why he can never eat 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:43.440 calamari again. Hint, it involves pork Brian started at This 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.280 American Life as an intern in two thousand ten. He 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.320 says he can't imagine another place where he would have 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.200 gotten to make s Town, in large part because of 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.760 the creative wisdom of his boss, Ira Glass, who I 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.200 spoke to a couple of years ago. I mean this 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.360 show because my taste, but also I have to say 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.679 the taste of my coworkers, you know, like it's not 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.639 just mine at this point, Like it's something that we 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.280 all share, and I happened to be the frontman, and 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:11.960 in that way it's different than than it was from 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.000 the beginning, Like I am the frontman for this thing 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.639 that we make together, like somebody who's in a band 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.800 that's been playing for a long time. To hear more 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.240 of my conversation with Ira Glass, take a listen at 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:35.920 Here's the Thing dot Org. This is Alec Baldwin and 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.240 you were listening to Here's the Thing. When Brian Read 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:42.560 replied to an email sent to This American Life from 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.840 John B. McLamore, he intended to get more information about 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:51.439 an alleged murder in rural Alabama. Instead, he met a 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:56.120 most compelling character who, after hours of interviews, left him 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.080 in an unusual position. So I was talking to Hi, 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.320 I'm gonna come down after life. Fourth John. I was 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.240 beginning of June, you know, first couple of weeks of 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.160 June that I was having these conversations with him. Um. 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.239 And then on June's twenty, he killed himself, and so 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.960 I had there wasn't like did you see that coming? No? 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:14.679 I mean it was like it was a little bit 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:16.399 like the boy cried wolf with him and on and 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.760 on the show. You sound crushed. Yeah, it was one 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.680 of those things where you know, he talked, he said 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.439 he was going to kill himself, like he said, I'm 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:25.840 going to do it many times, and I knew he 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.720 said to other people. And it was still utterly shocking. 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.679 Where were you when you heard that he died. I 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.679 was in a studio in this American Life, recording it, 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:39.320 which I did not expect. How do you feel? I 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:44.480 felt shocked. I felt disbelief, but then kind of of course, Um, 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.480 did you feel angry? I didn't feel angry yet. Um, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.080 you know other people you did. No, he didn't. He didn't. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.199 He didn't know me anything. Here you've given him the 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.920 attention that he craved on a level he could never 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:58.960