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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,

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Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to

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Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change

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Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Good stories teach

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Speaker 1: us about people. Great ones alter the way we see ourselves.

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Speaker 1: For many, the new podcast s Town has done just that.

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Speaker 1: The seven episode series from the folks who brought us

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Speaker 1: Serial and This American Life, provides a window into the

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Speaker 1: world of an eccentric Alabama horologist named John B. McLemore.

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Speaker 1: Released on March, it reached critical acclaim almost instantly, garnering

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Speaker 1: sixteen million downloads in the first seven days. But to

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Speaker 1: focus on its commercial success would be missing the point.

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Speaker 1: S Town isn't about celebrity, viral tweets, or even the

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Speaker 1: alleged Alabama murder that led host and producer Brian Reid

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Speaker 1: to McLamore in the first place. The front door of

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Speaker 1: the house opens and a man comes bounding out of it.

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Speaker 1: I found it nice to meet you. There's no nice

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Speaker 1: to meet you back, No how you do in no handshake.

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Speaker 1: John just takes off around the side of the house

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Speaker 1: with a pack of dogs following him. She's like the same. Next.

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Speaker 1: It's about a brilliant, cynical man whose very existence challenges

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Speaker 1: modern notions of masculinity, homophobia, and mental illness. A man

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Speaker 1: who had a story to tell, just not the one

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Speaker 1: he thought. As the world continues to devour s Town,

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Speaker 1: I sat down with Brian Reid to talk about the

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Speaker 1: critical acclaim the series has received. I don't know. I'm

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Speaker 1: getting a taste of it and I'm and I'm enjoying

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Speaker 1: it and I'm grateful to people like it. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel overwhelming, you know. Do you also feel it's an

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Speaker 1: enormous opportunity for you to channel this energy into you

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Speaker 1: big production deal and get things going and start making

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Speaker 1: some more content. Oh maybe I don't know, Maybe I

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Speaker 1: should be thinking that way. I mean, I'm back in

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Speaker 1: my day job right now. I work at this American

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Speaker 1: life and I'm just making stories now work. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: the day after this came out, Ira was like, are

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Speaker 1: you back at work tomorrow? Like, basically, I've been gone

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Speaker 1: for a year on hiatus, and they wanted to who

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Speaker 1: are you? I knew you were. I'm sorry, but when

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Speaker 1: you did this, you obviously didn't predict the success. No.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was going to be if anything, like

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Speaker 1: a cultish thing. And I started working on this even

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Speaker 1: before Cereal was out, you know, so like or invented,

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Speaker 1: they were just started starting serial. So tell us that, Um,

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Speaker 1: what is s Town? And I mean, what is it

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Speaker 1: for a listener in an encapsulated kind of Uh? If

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Speaker 1: if there was the equivalent of TV guide like radio guide,

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Speaker 1: what would you say in a pithy para. It's really hard.

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Speaker 1: We struggled with this because there's certain things you don't

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Speaker 1: want to tell about the story. You want people to

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Speaker 1: learn them in the story. So that's been challenging because

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Speaker 1: it's a story that shifts a number of times throughout it.

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Speaker 1: Things happened that change that kind of the story shifts

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Speaker 1: underneath It happened underneath my feet in real life as

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Speaker 1: I was reporting it, but then also as that story.

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Speaker 1: That's what we've tried to reflect in the story as well.

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Speaker 1: But it's about a man named John B. McLamore who

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Speaker 1: contacted me. Um, he contacted you. He wrote our show,

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Speaker 1: and I saw his email and responded. He says in

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Speaker 1: his first email, I'm a longtime listener who recently started

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Speaker 1: listening again, which is sometimes crazy to be this whole

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Speaker 1: seven part. The thing is just about a listener, you know,

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Speaker 1: like of which we have millions, which is nuts. But um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he'd been hearing the show and um he heard a

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Speaker 1: couple in particular stories we've done. Um I Rea did

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Speaker 1: a story um investigating a judge and some possible malfeasance

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Speaker 1: that a judgment UM doing in rural Georgia. He'd heard

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Speaker 1: that story and in a show we did called getting

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Speaker 1: Away with It, which actually wasn't investigated at all, but

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Speaker 1: I think the title caught his attention. And uh, and

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Speaker 1: he wanted us to come down and investigate some wrongdoing

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Speaker 1: that he said was going on in his small town

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Speaker 1: in Alabama. So he reaches out to you. He talks

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Speaker 1: to you first. He wrote our general account, I want

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Speaker 1: to alert your producers to some stuff that's going on

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Speaker 1: in my town. And the and the subject line was

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Speaker 1: John by McLamore lives in Shiptown, Alabama. That was his title.

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Speaker 1: It was a liveliness to it, there was he had

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Speaker 1: you with that subject. Yeah, and there was a liveliness

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Speaker 1: to it, even even like the capitalization was erratic in

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Speaker 1: a way, that caught my attention in the email, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, he said, I would hope that you

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Speaker 1: guys could come down here and investigate some of the

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Speaker 1: terrible things that are going on in this ship town

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Speaker 1: would Stock, Alabama and bib County, Alabama. And he mentioned,

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Speaker 1: um two incidents, one of which was this murder that

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Speaker 1: he said had taken place, Um that a local kind

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Speaker 1: of rich kid had allegedly beating someone to death and

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Speaker 1: then was out bragging about it, had not gone to jail,

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Speaker 1: gotten away with it. And so that's what he was

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Speaker 1: telling us about. But it was also like just generally,

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Speaker 1: you need to check this place out. It's so fucking terrible.

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Speaker 1: Like that was like the general vibe with a couple

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Speaker 1: of examples. But I would imagine that beyond the kind

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Speaker 1: of fulk Ner esque tableau of the area, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean this kind of southern idol and the crazy

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Speaker 1: characters and the and and the implication of some crime

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Speaker 1: or some evil or what have you, I would imagine

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Speaker 1: that you must get variations of that pitch to you

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Speaker 1: all the time. We do. Yeah, that one made you

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Speaker 1: what what was it about this when they made you go, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go down so the next thing is should go

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Speaker 1: down there. Correct. Well, I talked to him for a

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Speaker 1: while in the phone. It took a year for me

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Speaker 1: to get on the phone with him because it was

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Speaker 1: not a priority for me, like I was working on

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Speaker 1: other stuff that seem more real, you know. And then

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Speaker 1: eventually we got on the phone because he sent me

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Speaker 1: like a news report about some actual police corruption that

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Speaker 1: had actually happened, which reminded me that I should check

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Speaker 1: in with this guy you call him in what happens.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about the alleged murderer, but then

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Speaker 1: also he just starts talking about his life in general.

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Speaker 1: He you know, he's forty eight at the time we

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Speaker 1: started talking, I think around there, late forties, um, And

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Speaker 1: he'd lived there his entire life, in this town of

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Speaker 1: people are less. He'd never left. He desperately hated it.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to leave, but wouldn't leave if he lived

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Speaker 1: there alone, in the house he'd grown up in that

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Speaker 1: had been there for centuries, in a century and a half,

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Speaker 1: you know, with his mother who had dementia who we

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Speaker 1: took care of, and you know, a large number of

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Speaker 1: dogs fluctuating between thirteen and twenty one dogs and he

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Speaker 1: built a giant hedge maze in his backyard. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was, he was. It was just one of those

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Speaker 1: conversations where, yeah, I was getting the information about the murder,

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Speaker 1: the alleged murder, but also he seemed to be going

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Speaker 1: through something in talking to me. It wasn't even just details,

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Speaker 1: like all those details are interesting, but he was wrestling

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Speaker 1: with the fact that he had never left this place.

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Speaker 1: He despised and that caught my attention and I was yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, maybe there's a murderer. If there's

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Speaker 1: a murder, this guy is part of it. This is

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Speaker 1: what makes the story special. You know, it was always

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Speaker 1: going to be. He was a big part of it

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Speaker 1: from the get go. I mean, that's interesting to me

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Speaker 1: that when you you talked to this guy on the phone,

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Speaker 1: he's a good talker, and he's compelling, and his voice

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Speaker 1: is so kind of theatrical, and I know you're telling

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Speaker 1: yourself this, this has some possibilities. We are a radio show, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean you need I mean, in order

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Speaker 1: for a radio story to work, you need a good

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Speaker 1: talk sound like. That's the phrase that said many times

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Speaker 1: in our office. Every day of this American life is

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Speaker 1: he a good talker, and a story can live or

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Speaker 1: die on that. A story that in a pitch on

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Speaker 1: a piece of paper, UM, could have all the beats

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Speaker 1: of an interesting story and surprise, we'll call him, do

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Speaker 1: a pre interview with someone and it just doesn't live.

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Speaker 1: You need a good talker to you know, great stories

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Speaker 1: happen to those. So a year goes by between when

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Speaker 1: you first picked this up when you call him, how

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Speaker 1: much time goes by after that from when you first

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Speaker 1: go down there. We talked on the phone for I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, eight to ten months, because I was working

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Speaker 1: on other stuff and I did try to see if

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Speaker 1: I could find anything about this murder from Afar. Basically

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Speaker 1: I was doing just getting into the court system and

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Speaker 1: stuff UM and I couldn't and eventually got to the

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Speaker 1: point where like, I just need to go down there.

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Speaker 1: But in the course of that I would be checking

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Speaker 1: in with John, and we invariably had these very long

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Speaker 1: conversations that were about much more than the murder. So

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Speaker 1: we're getting to know each other, you know. I got

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Speaker 1: to know about his obsession with climate change and about

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Speaker 1: this relationship that he had with these um you know,

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Speaker 1: this local guy that worked on his property. That was

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Speaker 1: interesting to me, Like there were just elements where it's

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Speaker 1: just like I want to go. He's the other protective.

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Speaker 1: Um what what was the root of his obsession with

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Speaker 1: climate change? What was he because of changes that were

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Speaker 1: happening down there? I don't know for sure, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't talk about. My sense is that what I've been

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Speaker 1: told this isn't in the story, is that, Um, he

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Speaker 1: got a computer only in the last few years of

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Speaker 1: his life, and stay the last five years someone at

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Speaker 1: town Hall hooked him up with an old computer before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was incredibly intelligent and in touch with

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Speaker 1: the world. Um, but like I think he had like

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Speaker 1: books shipped to him from the library is how he

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Speaker 1: did it. Um, but he he was given a computer.

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Speaker 1: And I think my sense is that the climate change

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Speaker 1: and energy and peak oil fixations, and you know, him

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Speaker 1: teaching himself about that, like he really went down some

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Speaker 1: rabbit holes with the computer. But it's interesting. I wonder

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Speaker 1: also how he's so connected to the land to borrow

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Speaker 1: that cliche that he knows sort of to notice changes

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Speaker 1: in that. Yeah, and I think you're I mean, he

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Speaker 1: would talk about like I'm seeing less butterflies, you know,

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Speaker 1: he would notice things like that things are getting brown er,

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Speaker 1: we haven't had rain in this long so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that was party was very connected to his environment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you go down and meet him for the first

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Speaker 1: time and describe that situation. It's just me. That's one

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Speaker 1: of the great things about radio reporting. It's super lean.

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Speaker 1: You don't need like a film crew, you don't need

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Speaker 1: the Golden Hour. Yeah, but it's just like a little

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Speaker 1: kid that I'm paying on my neck in a tiny

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Speaker 1: you know, like a medium sized microphone. So it's pretty

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Speaker 1: like I'm just in my car rental car. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's pretty much as I described in the story,

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Speaker 1: like I missed his house, you know, the first time

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Speaker 1: pass Birmingham, um, like forty five minutes rent a car

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Speaker 1: for if miss to an hour gets pretty I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's the kind of the beginning of like rural part

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Speaker 1: of West Alabama. Like they're they're the first county kind

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Speaker 1: of after you leave Jefferson County, which has um Birmingham

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Speaker 1: and Bessemer, which is kind of like the you know,

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Speaker 1: the end of the Metro era, I'd say, is my

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Speaker 1: understanding of it. You're driving, you're driving kind of southwest

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Speaker 1: out of Birmingham, UM, but it's bib Counties kind of

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Speaker 1: between Birmingham and Tuscaloose are these two kind of like

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Speaker 1: things on each their cities on either side that are

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Speaker 1: each about forty five minutes outside. He'd give me directions,

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Speaker 1: but he was like Google Maps doesn't really work, like

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Speaker 1: you should use latitude and longitude would be more helpful.

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Speaker 1: So I put that into Google Maps. Yeah, exactly. I

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Speaker 1: had you know, a compass with me. Missed his house

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Speaker 1: because it's just a little like driveway path through the woods.

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Speaker 1: Eventually like came back by and went down there, like

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Speaker 1: I think it was feet into the woods, and then

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Speaker 1: you had this clearing and it is this very old house.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've been in Alabama once before, kind

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Speaker 1: of just passing through, and I've been in the South before,

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Speaker 1: and but I was kind of just like, all right,

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Speaker 1: well maybe this is just like a normal house and

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Speaker 1: like place to live in the South. This land that's

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Speaker 1: like this house in the middle of a clearing. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's very old. But I've since you know, spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in Alabama and talked to a lot

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Speaker 1: of people and everyone who know, even lifelong residents of Alabama.

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Speaker 1: I said, no, that place is not normal. When I

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Speaker 1: first went to John, that was like, where the hell

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Speaker 1: am I like, I'm stepping back in time? That That's

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Speaker 1: what's curious to me, is I mean, I'm not I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say. He sounded to me and I

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Speaker 1: only experienced him on your show and his voice in

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Speaker 1: your show, and he sounded to me like he was

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Speaker 1: pretty wound up and pretty intense, and he's very colorful

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Speaker 1: in a way that would make me entertained by him

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Speaker 1: alternately and concerned about him alternately. So when you go

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Speaker 1: down there, you're not nervous, You're not worried for your safety.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't worried for my safety. I was a little

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Speaker 1: you know, I was aware that I was going somewhere

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Speaker 1: kind of off the grid. You know. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: being conserned my safety with John. I don't mean you've

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Speaker 1: spoken to him so many times trust with him, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess so. Um, But he certainly was very intense

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Speaker 1: and he was exhausting to be with, you know, both

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Speaker 1: thrilling and could be frustrating and exhausting, you know, like

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Speaker 1: his it wasn't like a normal interview, like what we're

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Speaker 1: doing right now, Like I could not get him to

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Speaker 1: do that. You know, there were a couple of times

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Speaker 1: I tried to sit down and just talk to him,

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Speaker 1: and he was just he couldn't sit there and talk.

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Speaker 1: Do you attribute too, I think it's his personality and

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Speaker 1: whether that's you know, certain mental health issues or as

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Speaker 1: I talk about in the story, there's a question of

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Speaker 1: mercury poisoning. Yeah. I wasn't nervous, but it was like

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Speaker 1: just really trying to get a grasp on like you know,

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Speaker 1: like you know, you're reporting, you don't just like normally

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Speaker 1: let someone talk. That's not reporting, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like you have questions and you have a focus, and

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Speaker 1: where were those questions and what was the focus when

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Speaker 1: you began well with him? I mean, like I definitely

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, we've got to do this murder

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Speaker 1: investigation stuff. So were certain steps I wanted to take,

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Speaker 1: you know, that were seemed safe but defined with him.

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Speaker 1: But then I was also open to like, I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in him in his life. I want to talk to

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Speaker 1: him about his life. I'm interested in this relationship he

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Speaker 1: started to tell me about with Tyler Goodson and some

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Speaker 1: of the locals there, So hopefully I'll get to like

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Speaker 1: get inside that a little bit. So that was those

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Speaker 1: were all kind of like through lines in my head,

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Speaker 1: you know, as I'm down there. But then he had

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Speaker 1: his own agendas to like, well, he wanted to teach

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Speaker 1: me about climate change. Like he literally, like the second

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Speaker 1: morning I was there, you know, called him. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm up, I'm going to drive over there. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was staying like fifteen or two minutes away, and

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Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, I'm preparing a lecture for you on

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Speaker 1: climate change. I timed it, it's like five minutes. It

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Speaker 1: will only take twenty minutes. But did you sense he

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Speaker 1: wanted to teach you out of some kind of intellectual

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Speaker 1: vanity or was he the Obi wan Kenobi of climate

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Speaker 1: change and want you to run out and go fight

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Speaker 1: the fight somewhere? What did the artic constantly had this

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Speaker 1: feeling with John where in all my time knowing him

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Speaker 1: and to this day, his mind and his ability to

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Speaker 1: understand particularly science, um was so beyond mine. Like like

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Speaker 1: what he would talk about climate change, it was I

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Speaker 1: could get like two percent of it. And so I

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Speaker 1: constantly have this feeling of like either he is a

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Speaker 1: freaking profit or completely looney. I have no idea, and

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Speaker 1: it could be either at any points either I still

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Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, and I I hired to research

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Speaker 1: her to look into like a lot of his writings

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Speaker 1: on climate change, like to try and figure that out.

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Speaker 1: At one point it's I mean, it was so complicated,

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Speaker 1: like basically it seems like he's right. He's not like

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Speaker 1: putting factual and accuracies in these in his theories, but

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Speaker 1: he is. The general sense I got after the researcher

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Speaker 1: looked into it was that, um like he you know,

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Speaker 1: he's he's choosing things to focus on that serve his thesis,

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Speaker 1: you know, that serve his negative worldview. So you start

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Speaker 1: with him down this path of exploring the crime, and

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Speaker 1: then you find out that none of it is what

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Speaker 1: it was purported to be. Some of it is, but

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Speaker 1: one important detail is different, important detail different. When you

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Speaker 1: discover that, what prevents you from just packing up and

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Speaker 1: leaving and going we're done. I discovered it after I

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Speaker 1: So I did a visit there in October, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't actually really put it all, like come to the

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Speaker 1: conclusion of that until early summer. I still was interested

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Speaker 1: in him. He had other pieces of corruption that he

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Speaker 1: was telling me about. I was like maybe. And I

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Speaker 1: was interested in his relationship with Tyler Goodson, and so

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Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, maybe they I'll look into one

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Speaker 1: of these other things. Because what he was telling me

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Speaker 1: it happened. Everyone in town believed it. It happened exactly

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Speaker 1: as he told me. He didn't make it up. It

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Speaker 1: was just that, you know, one important detail was different

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Speaker 1: that didn't make it as bad of a crime as

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Speaker 1: he had said it was. So I was talking to

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Speaker 1: him like, I'm gonna come back down there. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of loose ends I wanted to

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Speaker 1: put to bed with this initial murder investigation, um, and

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Speaker 1: then just talk to him, you know, like kind of

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Speaker 1: get inside his and Tyler's relationship a little bit more. Um,

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Speaker 1: possibly look at another piece of corruption or you know,

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Speaker 1: wrongdoing that he was telling me about. So that was

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Speaker 1: in like June. We were having these conversations. I was

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Speaker 1: working on a big story that was coming on on

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Speaker 1: July four, and I was like, right after July four, John,

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Speaker 1: I want to come back down there, you know. And

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Speaker 1: he was all like, um, oh my god, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be the dead of summer. It's gonna be so hot,

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Speaker 1: and I need to get the house cleaner out here,

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Speaker 1: and it's the house is full of fleas and oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, and I'm gonna have to prune the maze

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Speaker 1: and gracious. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: worry about to worry about it. So right after July

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Speaker 1: four and then he he, um, I guess we're not

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Speaker 1: talking about this. That's the truck tricky part. But he

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Speaker 1: did the thing that he does in the story on

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Speaker 1: June two, and so that, um, do you do? You

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Speaker 1: want to tell it? You because you want to? Can

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Speaker 1: you tell people to maybe you like, go with the

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Speaker 1: show first before I say that was the next part. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna stop here. Here's where you press pause, pause

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Speaker 1: now and go listen to S Town, which in total

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Speaker 1: is what six hours or six and change. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we mean it. If you haven't listened to S Town

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Speaker 1: and don't want more details about what happens, stop listening

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Speaker 1: to this right now. Go download S Town and come

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Speaker 1: back here in six hours if you are sticking with us.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, Brian Reid reveals why he can never eat

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Speaker 1: calamari again. Hint, it involves pork Brian started at This

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Speaker 1: American Life as an intern in two thousand ten. He

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Speaker 1: says he can't imagine another place where he would have

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Speaker 1: gotten to make s Town, in large part because of

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Speaker 1: the creative wisdom of his boss, Ira Glass, who I

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Speaker 1: spoke to a couple of years ago. I mean this

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Speaker 1: show because my taste, but also I have to say

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Speaker 1: the taste of my coworkers, you know, like it's not

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Speaker 1: just mine at this point, Like it's something that we

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Speaker 1: all share, and I happened to be the frontman, and

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Speaker 1: in that way it's different than than it was from

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Speaker 1: the beginning, Like I am the frontman for this thing

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Speaker 1: that we make together, like somebody who's in a band

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Speaker 1: that's been playing for a long time. To hear more

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Speaker 1: of my conversation with Ira Glass, take a listen at

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Speaker 1: Here's the Thing dot Org. This is Alec Baldwin and

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Speaker 1: you were listening to Here's the Thing. When Brian Read

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Speaker 1: replied to an email sent to This American Life from

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Speaker 1: John B. McLamore, he intended to get more information about

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Speaker 1: an alleged murder in rural Alabama. Instead, he met a

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Speaker 1: most compelling character who, after hours of interviews, left him

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Speaker 1: in an unusual position. So I was talking to Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna come down after life. Fourth John. I was

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Speaker 1: beginning of June, you know, first couple of weeks of

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Speaker 1: June that I was having these conversations with him. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then on June's twenty, he killed himself, and so

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Speaker 1: I had there wasn't like did you see that coming? No?

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Speaker 1: I mean it was like it was a little bit

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Speaker 1: like the boy cried wolf with him and on and

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Speaker 1: on the show. You sound crushed. Yeah, it was one

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Speaker 1: of those things where you know, he talked, he said

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Speaker 1: he was going to kill himself, like he said, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to do it many times, and I knew he

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Speaker 1: said to other people. And it was still utterly shocking.

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Speaker 1: Where were you when you heard that he died. I

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Speaker 1: was in a studio in this American Life, recording it,

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Speaker 1: which I did not expect. How do you feel? I

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Speaker 1: felt shocked. I felt disbelief, but then kind of of course, Um,

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Speaker 1: did you feel angry? I didn't feel angry yet. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know other people you did. No, he didn't. He didn't.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know me anything. Here you've given him the

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Speaker 1: attention that he craved on a level he could never

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Speaker 1: have gotten it, you know. I mean, that's my I

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Speaker 1: get paid to do, right. I'm I'm not saying you're

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Speaker 1: doing any favorites. I'm just saying I found it interesting

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Speaker 1: that he did that, even in spite of the fact that,

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Speaker 1: you know, had he lived, he could have been like

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Speaker 1: Lance Loud, like this cult figure. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: think he didn't want that, No, IM not. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how he felt about I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how he felt about that. I just think I was

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Speaker 1: not the biggest part of his life, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: that was that was something that was going on in

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Speaker 1: his life. He really felt, you weren't the biggest part

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Speaker 1: of his life. I'm definitely not the biggest part of it. Now.

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Speaker 1: We would talk occasionally and I went to visit him

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Speaker 1: for the better part, but he died before the podcast

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Speaker 1: came out. I know. I'm just saying, like, once the

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Speaker 1: podcast came out to it, you think he would have

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Speaker 1: been thrilled by the by the attention he got. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think he would have really liked it. I think

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Speaker 1: he could have, though I don't totally know, because he

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Speaker 1: had such an unpredict He was such an unpredictable person

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Speaker 1: that he could have any number of reactions and I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't deign to like get inside of his head about it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I appreciate that, which is very which because

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Speaker 1: he could also be annoyed by like the think piece

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Speaker 1: reactions and the you know, I think he would be

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Speaker 1: upset that I didn't have more climate change stuff in

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00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 1: the story, Like I think he would have criticisms and too.

429
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna leap back a bit. Where are you from?

430
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: I'm from Shelton, Connecticut. And when you like an hour

431
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,239
Speaker 1: and a half from New York. And when you were

432
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: growing up was radio and communications that kind of thing

433
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: the goal were, you know? I never listened to radio. However,

434
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: my parents didn't know what MPR was Like. We're not

435
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: that kind of house. I feel there are a lot

436
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: of people who go work at MPR in public radio

437
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,399
Speaker 1: who have this whole Like I grew up in an

438
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: MPR household. I did not have any clue what you

439
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: did it as a house painter? What'd your mom? She

440
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 1: a different jobs growing up. She always wanted to be

441
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: a teacher, but never became one fully, so now these

442
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 1: days she teaches adult head in different You have a

443
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,880
Speaker 1: younger brother, what's he doing. He's in sales, door door salesman.

444
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: He's a door to door salesman. Your dad, your dad

445
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 1: was was a professional painting contractor. And how do you

446
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 1: get into this radio game? Where'd you go to college

447
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 1: to Yale? Would you study Yale theater and history? And

448
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: you wanted to be? I don't know. I think I

449
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: went in. I did like, you know, high school musicals

450
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 1: and stuff in high school. Going into college, I wanted

451
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,120
Speaker 1: to be I would liked acting, but then I very

452
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: soon realized there are people far better at it than me.

453
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 1: So I did some performances in college, but I got

454
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: a little more into directing. Um, So I directed a

455
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 1: few shows and that was a little more my focus

456
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: in the major. And then and um and writing and stuff.

457
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 1: I started to fancy myself a writer. I did some

458
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 1: journalism some friends and I took a road trip one

459
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: summer and like brought up cam quartering, like finagled some

460
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 1: grants and bought an old van and interviewed people about

461
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: what makes them happy, you know, and like tried to

462
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: write a book about it. I was just looking for

463
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: kind of jobs that were journalists, the you know, kind

464
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 1: of like writing that your initial direction was writing in journalism,

465
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 1: and yeah, writing, I fancy myself a writer, I guess.

466
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,199
Speaker 1: I worked from a forum, an alternative weekly company for

467
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: very briefly for a few months in Washington, d C.

468
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: But got this fellowship at NPR called the Croc Fellowship,

469
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: which was funded by Joan kroc Um, which gave me

470
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 1: my career. Like I, I hadn't listened to radio, but

471
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: I went and did. It's a year long fellowship for

472
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: people who are shortly out of any kind of school.

473
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 1: You could do four different jobs in the organization, including

474
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: reporting and producing, and it's really trial by fire. And

475
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: at the end of it, I was like, Wow, radio

476
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 1: is really hard, but I really like it and I

477
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: think I'm getting better at it. I wasn't like love

478
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 1: at first sight like that, but I was like, I'm

479
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: engaged by this. This is you know, there seems to

480
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: be opportunities here. And then shortly after that, I moved

481
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 1: to New York and got the internship what was then

482
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: the internship and is now the Fellowship at this American Life. Um,

483
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: what was that like when you got there? Because I

484
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 1: always show was such a monolith, you know, It's like

485
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 1: it's a great program, and yeah again, I was still

486
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: kind of new to it. I started listening to it

487
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 1: in the last year or two, just because I'd only

488
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,959
Speaker 1: gotten into radio. I didn't listen to a growing up

489
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: and stuff. I think I was aware of it. I'd

490
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: heard some episodes, but um very soon after getting there,

491
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: Ira put me on a very big project. He was

492
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: producing an MPR reporter named Frank langfit on a hour

493
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: long story about a car plant called New me in California.

494
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 1: And really that's one of my favorites. I love well

495
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: was the first thing that produced, the one that one

496
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: with the one of that bung. I'm the one who

497
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: did the taste test, who got it wrong at you know.

498
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 1: So in actuality, Seth is eating calumari. The chewing you

499
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: hear from Brian's mic that is the sound of a

500
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: Calamari lever eating fried pig recton. I should also add

501
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: there were actually two varieties of bung on the plate

502
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: that day. One bung that my sister had blanched over

503
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: and over to mellow any organy fecal flavor and then

504
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: untreated straight up bung that one. The latter one bung

505
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: at its purest, at the height of its bungy nous.

506
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: This is what Brian was eating. I can't calmara legend?

507
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: Can Calamaria a legend among my friends? You know? That's

508
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 1: a very similar. The way that the Calamari story came

509
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: about is very similar to uh, the way East Town

510
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: came about. It was a tip line kind of email

511
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: where someone was like, I was in a pork I

512
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: believe it was someone saying, like, I was in a

513
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: pork processing plant and I saw boxes labeled with like

514
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: imitation Calamari, And that was how that's and they emailed

515
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: us about it. That was got what got us hooked

516
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: on that I don't I don't need Calamari anymore. And

517
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: even if I did, I would be like so uh

518
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: terrified because I loved it. So when you when you

519
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: do segments for that show, when you produce reports for

520
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: that show, you get to a point with some of

521
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: them where it becomes aborted. You sit there and go, well,

522
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: this isn't really holding together in terms of you find

523
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 1: somebody with many of them then you do. So that

524
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 1: is a condition when you work. There's some of it

525
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: just crashes and and it's considered the laws. Yeah, it's

526
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: and it's I mean it's built into it, like I

527
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: were very wisely, I believe, from the beginning of the show,

528
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: and they had like no money still built on their

529
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: budget to be able to kill a third of the

530
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: stories that we start and it's now it's probably around there.

531
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: And that could mean one interview, it could mean a

532
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: pre interview, but it can also mean you know, I've

533
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: gone on entire trips to four different states, come back

534
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: and like, can you give us an example, like of

535
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: a killed story. I mean an example of the story

536
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: that you're really keen and you think you go onto

537
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: something and then it dies, And how do you feel

538
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah, I love killing stories because I know

539
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: I'm serious, But that's a are the culture. It's not

540
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: it's built into our budget. But it's also I think ideally,

541
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 1: Like not everyone who I work with like agrees with this,

542
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: but I believe like it was instilled in me by

543
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: Ira and Julie Snyder and the people who run this

544
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: American like that it's a triumph to kill a mediocre story,

545
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: like and it is so much hard, like when you've

546
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: been through this enough, like something that's not working so

547
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: well that you get in so deep that you're trying

548
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: to bring across the finish line to make it good

549
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: enough to be on the air. So much harder than

550
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: something that's got got all the goods and it's going

551
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: to be great, you know what I mean? I don't know,

552
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: but it could be a million things. So, like I

553
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: went on one story that I was excited about. It

554
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: was a Scottish reporter who was going to look back

555
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: at a single like photograph of a shooting that had

556
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: happened in a rack ten years on that he'd been

557
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: therefore embedded with a with a battalion or something. I

558
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: can't remember all the details. And we went to three

559
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: different states, four different states. We were like in a

560
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: week to interview different players back from that time. But

561
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: there was this one interview we really wanted to get

562
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: um that was going to make it come together. I

563
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: think he was a chaplain in the unit and we're

564
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: so we flew to Colorado. He was like the key

565
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: interview who would like it kind of like helped everyone

566
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: deal with their grief. And we got to the airport

567
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: and he can't. He was like, I can't do this.

568
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this anymore. I don't want

569
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: to do the interview and We're in the Denver airport,

570
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: like calling and begging, and we came all the way

571
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: out here. We like you have dude had flown here

572
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: from Scotland. Um he did not meet with us. Um

573
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: we went home. No. I think he was just like

574
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: it was dredging up. It was a traumatic thing. He

575
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: just I don't know why exactly. So we flew home

576
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: and I was like, maybe I can salvage this, Maybe

577
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: there's some way to do it. And I pulled some

578
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: tape and ultimately it was just like, you're gonna be

579
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: happier if you kill this now, Like it's not you're

580
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: gonna be working so hard to make up for what

581
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: many people. Um, we've grown a lot in the last

582
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: couple of years, but like not many, like fifteen to

583
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen are less producers. And then there's you know

584
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: other staff, you know doing operations and tech and stuff

585
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: like that administration. Do you feel that there's a uh

586
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: philosophically and uh politically, there's a d NA to the

587
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: kind of stories they do over there. Oh yeah, how

588
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: would you describe that? Not politically but but in terms

589
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: of philosophy, Like we're trying to amuse ourselves that's the

590
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: philosophy and amuse use the term, you know, that's that's

591
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: irish statement. But I believe in that, you know, um

592
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: thesis like um amused can be broad like it can

593
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: be into you know, you can learn something, you could

594
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: be engross in a character that's going through something. Yeah,

595
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: but we're doing it for ourselves, like we're trying to

596
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: do things that we would want to listen to. Yeah,

597
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: And so that's like one overarching principle. But then there's

598
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: actually just specific ingredients we're looking for in stories like that.

599
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: Stories have to have for the most part to work

600
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: on our show. And that's a good you know, a character,

601
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: a main character who's a good talker, who goes through

602
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: something like with plot um surprise that leads to an

603
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: interesting idea about the world. Those are the ingredients we're

604
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: looking for. But do you feel like with your success

605
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: of your podcast you want to kind of go off

606
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: now and do your own thing? Would you like where

607
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: you are as a good hub. That's a good mothership

608
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: for you. I get to work with the best podcast

609
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: creators in the world, Like it's so yeah, there's yeah,

610
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: I'm very happy. And I think last is such a

611
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: blindingly bright. Guy's great, you know, I you know, I've

612
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: learned like a lot of what I know from him,

613
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: and but it's a place that because of him we

614
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: get to make things like S Town. There is a

615
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: spirit of invention. They're like we're constantly trying to fend

616
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: off boredom and try things that are new, and like,

617
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: I don't think there's many of the places where I

618
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: could say, like, let me leave my job for a

619
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: year to make this thing that you're going to help fund,

620
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, that is S Town, Like it's I imagine

621
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: pitching that a lot of places the show Best Town, Yeah, yeah, stuff,

622
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: And were some of the things that were said positive

623
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: and negative that resonated with you. I mean, they're really nice.

624
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot like there's some really nice

625
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: stuff that's been said that it's just a lot of

626
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: credible example of empathy, which I couldn't have. I did

627
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: not even occur to me that it was like more

628
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: empathetic than other things, Like it just felt like me

629
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: making the thing that I've heard a lot of that

630
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: and that was super cool in that way that your storytelling,

631
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: I mean, who you wanted to direct and do plays

632
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: and you wanted to act and what were some of

633
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: the negative things that hit you. It's been interesting. It's

634
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: I'm still sorting through all this, you know, it's only

635
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: been a few weeks. But I believe people have different

636
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: reactions to it that kind of betray like their background

637
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: a bit. Um. So there's a certain reaction I've heard

638
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: from mostly like white Northerners, um where like the podcast

639
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: makes them uncomfortable. They'll use that word like uncomfortable. I

640
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: don't quite know what they mean. Like in a couple

641
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: of cases, you know, it's been a reaction to there's

642
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: this one this one scene in the second chapter where

643
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: I was inside of this tattoo parlor, black sheet bank

644
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: and some very terrible racist contents, um. And so there's

645
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: this there's a certain reaction I've gotten from mostly like

646
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: people in the North, white people, like black people are

647
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: like yet, uh, but did you have the same reaction

648
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: your stuff when you were there? Do you find it

649
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: even for you when you went down the My god,

650
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: this is the same country I live in. I didn't

651
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: have that feeling, but I was cut. But that's the thing,

652
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: Like I'm wherever I'm reporting, I'm trying to find things

653
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: that are surprising. That's what I'm doing when I'm reporting,

654
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: I don't affect you know, it affects me. It's the

655
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: whole point, you know. But it wasn't because it's like

656
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: the South, the racism, It didn't. What surprised me about

657
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: it was how open people sometimes were. Not everybody, but

658
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: that there were moments where people would be open on Mike.

659
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: That surprised me. I certainly was not surprised that that

660
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: racism exists, and that you know, people would say things

661
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: even to a stranger. You know, that didn't surprise me.

662
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: And so anyway, so the react what did surprise you?

663
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: Um in general? You say, I do this to be amused?

664
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: What amused me? Like they're just like the only reason

665
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: to do this story is because I like it. Like

666
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: I realized in the middle of writing it, like there's

667
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: no news peg for this, there's no like business imperative

668
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: like to do this, like I like this story. And

669
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: so it was actually like a joy to write, even

670
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: when I was like staying up all night on deadline.

671
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: And the reason I like it is just a million

672
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: different moments, like you know, I I you know, there's

673
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: a moment where one of the characters talks about wanting

674
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: to like cut like someone's nipples off. I've just never

675
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: heard someone say that before, you know, to get someone's

676
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: gold nipple rings. I've never heard that on tape before.

677
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: That amused That amused me, Like, Um, there's you know

678
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: moments where John goes on at second rant talking about

679
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: like Putin should bomb us all and we're just living

680
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: in some crazy country, you know, Like that's just a

681
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: rant I can't even replicate because I've just never you know,

682
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: totally extemporaneous. There's a moment where, um, you know, an

683
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: old love interest of John's at the end of chapter

684
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: six lays out, you know, just exactly what he wanted

685
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: to do to him one day that he never actually did,

686
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: Like he wanted to make a move and he wanted

687
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: to kiss him on his belly. I've never heard anyone

688
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: do that on the radio before. That was wonderful And

689
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: so it was just like those moments they surprised me

690
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,959
Speaker 1: and they were the reason to do the story to me.

691
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: So when you when you talk about writing and when

692
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: you're stitching the whole thing together and doing the tracking

693
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: of where you kind of bring it all together, you've

694
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: got to write all that down for you when you've

695
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: got to write heavily edited and right, and now you're

696
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: doing all the writing, the writing and who was doing

697
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: the editing. To have a good editor well, editing means

698
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: something I think maybe different to me in radio than

699
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: it would it to you and UM in shaping. So

700
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: so basically I worked with Julie Snyder, who's who is

701
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: the co creator of Cereal and um was the senior

702
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: producer of This American Life for years until she created Cereal.

703
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: Now I have her job, UM, but we made it

704
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: this together, and you know she so she she was

705
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: working at This American Life as senior producer when John

706
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: first contacted me. So she was my editor as I

707
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: was going down to Alabama in the early days and

708
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: then we kind of stayed on it together and saw

709
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: came up with a vision for this together. So she's

710
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: the person I would be checking in with on my

711
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: reporting trips because there's a million decisions you're you're editing

712
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: even as you're reporting in deciding what leads to follow,

713
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: what to spend your time on, who to talk to you,

714
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: what to talk to him about. So she was constantly

715
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: in the process with me, and it's so important of

716
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: a good editor. I mean, she's she is the secret

717
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: to what makes things so good. So so then finally,

718
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: after like you know, a year of reporting or more,

719
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: we had like a month where we sat down or

720
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: first we had a month where we went through all

721
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: the tape and kind of made summaries of every interview.

722
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: Then she and I just sat there and we're like, okay,

723
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: so how does the story start? And it was like

724
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: a good month of just like you know, I'm what

725
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: I imagine it's like to be in a TV writer's

726
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: room of just you know, talking through the story and

727
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: kind of jamming, you know, kind of like well what

728
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: if it went this way? You know, so you get

729
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: an email, then you write him back. Now you don't

730
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: need the writing back part goes straight to the phone

731
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: call like, no, this part we want to save for later.

732
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: And just like trying it with each other, you know,

733
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: she'd say, well, what if we want this and this

734
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: and this, and I'd be like, no, that part's boring,

735
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: Let's cut that part where that's too much explanation, and

736
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: and we would just go through it, write it on

737
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: a white board, and then move on to the next chapter.

738
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: Eventually we got to a point where we couldn't see

739
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: it at all and we were feeling overwhelmed in our heads,

740
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: and so we started again from the beginning with note

741
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: cards on a wall and stretched all around the corner.

742
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of note cards, and it was

743
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: just that. So then we came more. Taught me that

744
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: they really is that the sketches and stuff, how he

745
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: pieces the show together, it's all not cards. Giant. It

746
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 1: was the first time I've done that. I can't imagine,

747
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: like to put that thing together six hours. That's incredible

748
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: in the time and the effort involved. What are you

749
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: working on now? Um, I'm back in my day job.

750
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: I'm my ideas. I'm helping other people with their stories.

751
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: So I do a lot of editing. So like people

752
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: i'm talking, you know, we're working on the show next week. Um,

753
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: that's a political show, so I'm editing a story about that.

754
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 1: I'm ading a story about a Somali pirate right now,

755
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: but it's someone else's story. But so they're reading it

756
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: to me and I'm telling them structural changes and different

757
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: changes to make, and we're going through that process, which

758
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for. I don't have a story in mind

759
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: that I love as much as s town and so

760
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: I can kind of wait for it to come to me,

761
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, while I help other people with their stuff.

762
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: Hello privates, Alick, Hi, alec Hey, Brian. I realized after

763
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: we spoke that I did have one more question for you,

764
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: and all right, I'm very curious what that is. Burning

765
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's a pretty obvious one,

766
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: which is, do you see any of yourself and John? Um, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

767
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: I really respect like people who forged their own way

768
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: in the world, and I don't know, certainly like a

769
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: way of being in the world that I aspired to

770
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: that I don't know if I always accomplished. And that's

771
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: what I enjoyed about talking to him and being with him.

772
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: He was so unabashedly himself. When I'm able to do

773
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: that in my own life, I feel good about it,

774
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: you know. I admire that and John a lot. And

775
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: it seems like he was somebody who insisted that he

776
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: could be himself regardless of who he was with. Do agree, absolutely? Yeah.

777
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: I think he was aware that he had a very

778
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: polarizing effect on people, and he was aware of that,

779
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: but his his personality could overwhelm people or turn people off,

780
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: or people really just loved being with him. Um, and

781
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: he kind of had a sense of bath, I feel

782
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: like this is me and take it or leave it.

783
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: Do you make people on comfortable? You could, yeah, Or

784
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: you bring people along for like a very special ride

785
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: and the right type of person is willing to go

786
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: there with you. But one more thing that occurred to

787
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: me was if he were around, what was one question

788
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: you still wanted to ask him? Um? Something I wish

789
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: I did with John that I never did is to

790
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: like push back on some of his racial views that

791
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: he expressed. Sometimes. Um, you know, sometimes it would come

792
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: up in the course of some other discussion about something else,

793
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: and I would kind of note, like I want to

794
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: talk to him about that at some point, like why

795
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: he seems to be so enlightened in some ways and

796
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: that so kind of backwards and like thoughtless and others.

797
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: And I just never got the chance to do that.

798
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: Do you attribute those views if it's just a certain

799
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: kind of stereotypical regionalisms or did you think he really

800
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: was a racist? I mean I think you certainly. I

801
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: don't know his Like his professor said, when he got

802
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: to college, as a really young guy, like, you know,

803
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: he bore kind of the markings of someone who've grown

804
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: up in that part of the world at that time

805
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: in terms of the way he talked about about race

806
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: and the words he used. I get the sense from

807
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: talking to people knew him that he got better over

808
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: the years as he read more and engaged with the

809
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: world more. I mean, I don't know, I don't even

810
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: know it's in someone's heart, Like he was both things

811
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: at once, but he, you know, sympathized with and felt

812
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: for people who are affected by racism, and he understood

813
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: that racism can be systemic. But then he would be

814
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: thoughtless and you know, really really shitty words and um,

815
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, kind of retreat back into a cruder way

816
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: of talking. And it was one of the things where

817
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: it would have been like a whole thing to talk

818
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: about that I wanted to talk about with him and

819
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: always meant to, and he died before I could. You know,

820
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: I wish I had. I wish I could have kind

821
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: of pushed back on some of the stuff he would say,

822
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, because he knew better, all right. That's so

823
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I wanted to talking about. It's

824
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: like why why do you sometimes still kind of retreat

825
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: into this way of talking when I know you know better?

826
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: You know well, thank you so much, and listen seriously.

827
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: I still look forward to discovering what's the next thing

828
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna do. I'm really looking forward to seeing you

829
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: do another show. It would be great. I appreciate it.

830
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's

831
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: the Thing