WEBVTT - Rerun: How Fuel Cells Work 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:12.479 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.920 and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.760 I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio and I love all 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:23.439 things tech. Tech Stuff is several years old now. It 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.000 launched in two thousand and eight, so we've been around 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:30.400 longer than some tech has. And one of the early 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.320 episodes we did was way back on June twenty first, 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:38.040 twenty ten. How fuel cells work. This is one of 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.960 those technologies that people often turn to and they look 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:47.040 at that as a possible move forward to get away 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:53.720 from carbon emissions with vehicles in particular, and fuel cells 0:00:53.920 --> 0:01:00.640 could do that if we met some other very tough challenge, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:02.760 and so I thought it would be fun to listen 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.679 to this classic episode. This is from the Crispalette era 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:15.000 of tech Stuff. How fuel cells work. Enjoy. Now let's 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.000 tackle our subject, which is how fuel cells work. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:24.880 Fuel cells the mystery, uh energy problem, savor of the future, 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:26.200 or sort of. 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.600 We would we would hope anyway. Uh yeah, fuel cells 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.640 are this Uh well, it's it's kind of like a battery. 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.000 You know. Let's let's go ahead and kind of define 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.560 what it does. It's an electro chemical energy conversion device. 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.640 Yes, Actually, that's that's sort of what I meant about mystery, 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.040 because everybody talks about how cool they are, but nobody 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.840 really knows exactly what they do. But they convert chemicals 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:49.120 into electricity. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:50.120 That's like a battery. 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.880 Yeah, No, it is very much like a battery. Others. 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:55.720 There are some differences, which we'll get into, but in 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.480 general a fuel cell. What most people tend to know 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.880 about fuel cells is one they create electricity and to 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.840 their byproducts are heat and water. Yes, it tends to 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.040 be what most people know about apart from the people 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.960 who specifically work in the fuel cell industry. Clearly they 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:11.920 know a lot more than that. 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.080 Well, of course, we always see that mainstream media, you know, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.200 reporter going out to the back of the fuel cell 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.480 vehicle and putting a cup underneath the tailpipe and drinking 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.320 the water, right, Yeah, and I think that sticks with us. 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.480 That's why we don't know that much more about it, 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.040 because we go, huh, that's really cool. 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.799 Yeah, because you think about that, you're like, well, if 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:36.640 we have this energy source that can create electricity and 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.360 the only byproduct really is heat and water, and you know, 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.240 water's not toxic. It's not like water is going to 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:47.320 be throwing out greenhouse gases into the atmosphere or polluting 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.000 in some other way. Why don't we have more of these? 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.600 And really, the answer to that question is that the 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.720 technology is not sophisticated enough and reliable enough, and most importantly, really, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.480 when you get down to it, cheap enough to do 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.760 on a widespread basis to allow us to switch to 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.200 a fuel cell economy. So let's let's kind of talk 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.680 about what how a fuel cell works, what it does, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.120 where it came from. First of all, well, let's talk 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.120 about Sir William Grove. Okay, Now, Sir William Grove, he's 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.880 the fellow who kind of invented fuel cells, if you will. 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.160 All right, he knew this was back in eighteen thirty nine. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.000 By the way, he knew that if you took some 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.280 water and you ran an electric current through the water, 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.320 it would produce hydrogen and oxygen. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.160 Right, So splitting the molecules of water apart, Yeah. 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.040 It's called electrolysis. And actually this tends to happen with 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.920 various molecules. If you add enough energy to the molecule, 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.840 it tends to break the molecular bonds and it will 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:50.920 eventually break apart into its individual elements. Most molecules will 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.400 do this if you pour in enough energy. That's going 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.640 to be another important point later on. So Grove he theorized, well, 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.160 if you if you add electricity to water and you 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:07.840 get hydrogen and oxygen, if you then combined hydrogen and oxygen, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.800 you should get water and electricity, you know, because you 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:13.840 know it should be the same coming out as it 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.279 is going in, right, that makes sense, So if you're yeah, 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.719 so he's like, well, how he ran some experiments and 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.080 he created what he called a gas voltaic battery, okay, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.040 and in this gas voltaic battery, he then combined hydrogen 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.880 and oxygen and he realized that he got water and 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.159 he got free electrons, which you know, if you direct 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.440 free electrons through a path, that's electricity. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.880 So there was a sign, a little sign on the 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:39.560 side of the said electrons free. 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.160 Yeah, yeah, exactly. There was a protest held out of 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:47.799 the cell. Fifty years later, you get a Ludwig Mond 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.320 and Charles Langer, and they're the ones who coined the 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.280 term fuel cell. Those are the guys who actually found 0:04:54.360 --> 0:05:00.680 a fairly practical way to do this. That was easy repeatable, 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.240 so you could you could repeat the experiment improve. Yes, 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:05.760 something is happening here, because, of course we know in science, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.240 just because you get a result doesn't necessarily mean that 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.000 you have proven your hypothesis correct. You need to have 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:16.120 a repeatable experiment that can be done by anyone who 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.520 has the facility to do it at any rate to 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.760 prove that that something really is going on. Yes, So 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.760 that's where we get into the fuel cells. And unlike battery, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:32.640 like a battery is a self contained chemical reaction, and 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.880 it can and yeah, it's a chemical reaction. It can 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:35.360 very good. 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.880 Yeah, well, I mean nothing's going in, nothing's going out 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.240 except electrons. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.200 Right, yeah. Yeah, the battery has chemicals inside it that 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.560 react together. The reaction produces electrons, and that is where 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.440 we get, you know, our little electric power from a battery. Yes, 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:57.080 fuel cells are a little different. You can pour fuel 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.360 into a fuel cell, thus the name, and it will 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.400 convert that fuel into the water and the electricity. So 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.400 as long as you have a supply of hydrogen and 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.440 a supply of oxygen going into the fuel cell, and 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.359 as long as the membrane of the fuel cell and 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.760 the other components remain remain viable, and we'll get into 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.760 that in a little bit. Uh, it should continue to 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.360 produce electricity. It's not gonna it's not like it'll die 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.640 after all the hydrogen runs out. If you add more 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.560 hydrogen and more oxygen, it should continue. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:30.640 To work, right. 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:36.000 Okay, so we've covered the basics there. Let's let's talk. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.039 I'm gonna shift my notes around. I actually have paper 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.960 notes today. Wow, I usually don't do this. Let's talk 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.040 about the various components within a fuel cell. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:46.480 Okay, we can do that, all right. 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.080 We've got the anode. Yes, Uh, the anode. It that's 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.320 the that's the negative post, not meaning that. 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:54.440 I know. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.240 I was trying to try to listeners. I apologize. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:06:59.839 I was not to finish. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.440 I mean, we all suffered for that. Besides Chris, No, no, no, no, 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.040 it's good. So that's what's conducting the electrons and that 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.840 get freed from the hydrogen. So the anodes on one end. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.400 On the other end is the cathode. Yes, it's the 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:20.320 positive post. So that's where the hydrogen. This is what's 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.280 conducting the electrons back from the external circuit. So I'm sorry. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.200 We've got the anode. That's where when the electrons come 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.320 out from the reaction, electrons go to the anode, go 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.200 into a circuit. So whatever electric motor or a light 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.200 bulb or whatever, Right, the electrons continue their path once 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.160 they go through that circuit to the cathode. Then we've 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:44.480 got the electrolyte in the center. This is a usually 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:49.560 approach a proton exchange membrane. Thing of the membrane is 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.320 kind of like a force field. Now this force field will, yeah, 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:58.440 the force field will allow positively charged ions to pass through, 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:04.720 but will pell negatively charged particles. So electrons have a 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.840 negative charge. Yes, they cannot pass through the membrane. If 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.320 they could pass through the membrane, fuel cells would not work. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.320 It is the bouncer of the fuel cell. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.640 Yes, you may not come in, but we're not cool 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:17.480 enough because you are negative. 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:21.560 Exactly, but the close enough. So the so the high 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.119 hydrogen are the the hydrogen ions are positively charged because 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.640 they have given up an electron. Right all right, So 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.319 now essentially what you have a hydrogen ion is essentially 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.120 a proton. So you've got a proton. Protons are positively charged. 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.880 You've got this positively charged element there. It can pass 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.800 through the membrane. Now, why would it pass through the membrane. 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:43.719 To get to the other side. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:49.360 But what's on the other side oxygen. Oh, and oxygen 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.600 has a negative charge. It so attracted exactly, the proton 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.240 is attracted across the membrane to the negatively charged oxygen. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.760 If there were negative charge, that of the proton would 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:08.199 not necessarily migrate through the membrane. So when it migrates 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.000 to the membrane, it then combines with the oxygen and 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.040 you get the two hydrogens, the one oxygen together and 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.240 then the electron that had passed through the circuit. Remember 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.319 it passed from the node through the circuit into the cathode. 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.640 On that end, the two hydrogen atoms the oxygen atom 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.959 have combined into a molecule. The electron joins that molecule, 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.680 and that's when you get water, right, So you don't 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.960 have any free electrons at the end of this process. 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.439 It all recombines on the cathode end, and that's where 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.160 you get the water. There's one other element that's important 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:43.400 with this, and that's the catalyst. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:45.720 Yes, and this is catalysts. 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:47.560 What they do is they help reactions. 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:50.560 Right. Then the thing that makes it possible to react. 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.760 Yeah, otherwise you would have to pour even more energy 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:55.920 in in order for this to react, and it wouldn't 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.719 be viable at all. So it's a special material and 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.040 it it helps this reaction of oxygen and hydrogen. And 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.520 in most fuel cells that people talk about, tends to 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:11.320 be made out of platinum nanoparticles. So a nanoparticle, of 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:16.320 course is insanely tiny, like tinier than the microscopic scopic scale. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.520 Right, but it is on a thin sheet of materials 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.679 with as much area as exposed as possible to facilitate 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:25.360 more reaction. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.800 Right, So it's almost like you've spray painted a sheet 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:32.719 with platinum. And because you can imagine, that's pretty expensive. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.120 Platinum is a precious that all. It's pretty rare. It's 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.240 hard to get your hands on it. Even when you're 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.680 talking about nanoparticles, which are really tiny. You're talking about 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.480 billions of nanoparticles. Yes, Like a nanoparticles is not going 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.199 to do much for you. So yeah, you definitely want 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.760 to maximize that surface area in order to allow the 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:55.240 reactions between hydrogen and oxygen to happen, or else your 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.719 your fuel cell doesn't do anything all right, So you're 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.080 pouring hydrogen in. You're you're pumping oxygen in. When I 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.920 say pouring, I really mean pumping, because you're probably pumping 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:10.000 hydrogen gas. You're pumping both into this fuel cell. They combine. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.640 You get the electrons, you get the water. So why 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.319 don't we have lots and lots of fuel cells already 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.920 running all all of our power, all of our electronics. 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.439 You've already hit on it that what was that? The 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:25.880 biggest one being the cost? 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.480 That would be a huge one. Yeah, the platinum, that kind. 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.000 Of that's simply not it's simply not practical, right, Yeah. 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.160 You get down to it, you're like, well, a, in 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.920 an ideal world, we cost would not be would not 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.680 even be a consideration, right, we would just be talking 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.160 about the fact that this is clean energy that we 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.600 have and uh, and we could run our cars or 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.200 other devices, our homes, even powered plants, we could run 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:55.520 them on hydrogen and uh and then we we'd not 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.520 pollute and we'd have a nice clean energy source. But 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.280 it comes down to the fact that is an element. 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:03.880 It's not the only one either, of course. 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:09.480 Yeah. The whole process of splitting the water into two pieces. Yeah, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.800 well you know that's actually I guess should be the 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:14.679 source of hydrogen more than anything else. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.280 Yeah, source of hydrogen is a huge, huge problem. Hydrogen 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.840 does not It's plentiful, but not in its elemental form 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.640 on Earth. It's usually combined with something else like oxygen 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.320 to make water. It's not like there's a hydrogen mine 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.200 we can go to and mine hydrogen, pure hydrogen and 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.560 use that when we can get hydrogen from stuff like 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.559 hydrocarbon fuels or even water, as we pointed out by 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.960 breaking down compounds, right, which takes energy. Right, So in 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.640 order to get this fuel cell fuel, you already have 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:53.400 to expend energy to create the fuel. So now you're 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.600 looking at a fuel like an energy deficit situation. Does 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.360 it take more energy to create the fuel than the 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.440 energy you will get by using that fuel to power 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.959 a fuel cell? And as long as it takes more 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.560 energy for you to create the fuel than it does 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.679 to actually power whatever it is you're going to power, 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.920 it doesn't make sense. We already have a fuel that 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.000 does this, by the way, gasoline. Yes, gasoline. Actually it 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.080 actually takes more energy to create a gallon of gas 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.360 than a gallon of gas can create through putting it 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:24.440 through a motor or whatever. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.600 Yeah, because gasoline is a pretty inefficient fuel. Yeah, it 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.600 turns out, especially compared to a fuel cell. And you 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.120 have to again look at the entire life cycle. 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.640 You're not just looking at oh, well, how much how 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.760 much energy did it take to ship the gasoline from 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.120 the refinery to the to the gas station. It's also 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.000 how much energy did the refinery have to expend in 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.520 order to produce that gasoline? How much energy had to 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.440 be expended to to get the oil out of the 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:56.120 ground to eventually become what would what would eventually become gasoline? Right, 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.360 It's really a big picture thing, and that's that's the 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.640 real problem with a lot of these energy issues, is 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.800 that once you start looking at the big picture, you 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.000 begin to realize, oh, this is this is a much 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.400 more difficult problem than I originally imagined. We'll be back 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.600 with more in just a moment to talk more about 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:23.080 fuel cells. Now, there are many different kinds of fuel cells. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:24.120 Yeah, I thought I. 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.840 Thought we were getting ready to hit that because the 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:31.000 one that we've been talking about, I guess, probably without 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.760 actually saying its name, is the polymer electrolyte membrane fuel 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.840 cell right, also sometimes. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.080 Called the polymer exchange membrane fuel cell. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.080 But same day. Why yeah, the membrane in the exchange. Okay, 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:44.480 I got it. 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.440 Yep, that's it. They're used in cars a lot, right, Yeah, 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.560 that's kind of the stuff we're looking at cars. See, Now, 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.240 some of these fuel cells work really well at a 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.160 certain temperature range, and outside that temperature range they don't 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:00.320 work very well at all. Now, the polymer exchange has 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.520 a couple of different issues that make it not the 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:09.080 most ideal method of a power generation within a car. 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.880 And one of those is that, well, I mean it's 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.880 heat range is okay, because it's it works best somewhere 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.520 around or one hundred and forty to one hundred and 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:19.680 seventy six degrees fahrenheit. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.359 Yeah, so you could. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.360 You would first have to heat your fuel cell up 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.160 to this temperature for it to be able to work properly. 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.080 So there is a warm up period. It's not like 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.040 it's going to work immediately as you get in your car. 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.960 One of the things about the polymer exchange membrane fuel 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.320 cell is that it has to have a hydrated membrane. 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:45.800 The membrane must remain hydrated, which means essentially wet. All right, 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.080 So if you live in Minnesota. You know, the winters 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:53.360 in Minnesota get really cold. And when you get really 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.200 cold and you got water, you know what happens. 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:58.160 It freezes. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.680 Yeah, it doesn't happen much here in it Lanta, but 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.560 up in Minnesota it could though. It could, Yes, if 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.240 the temperature fell far enough the water used to hydrate 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.160 that membrane, and remember the membrane is key to this, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.560 to this exchange. If the water could freeze, that would 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.200 make the membrane extremely brittle and it could break, and 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:20.680 then you've got a broken fuel cell. 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.440 Right, So that seems problematic. 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:25.440 Yeah, that's a bit of an issue. And there are 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.960 other types of fuel cells. There's the solid oxide fuel cell. 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.160 Okay, this is this is one of my favorites. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:32.640 This would not work well in the car. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.880 No, no, not at all, simply. 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.600 Simply because it requires so much more in the way 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.040 of temperature for it to operate. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.680 Yeah, it operates best between seven hundred and one thousand degrees. 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.760 Syntegrade. Yes, that's a that's pretty warm. 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.760 Yeah, no, it's pretty pretty steamy. 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.800 But but steam, now that you mentioned that seed that 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.360 it generates, you know, steam as a result, and that 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.600 can be used to create electricity as well. 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.920 Yeah, you can use the steam to generate to push turbines, 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.800 or you could even use the steam, well not just 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.480 or and you could use the steam to help heat 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:14.960 the facility. So let's say it's in the dead of winter, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.919 the steam coming from this reaction could go back into 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.560 the heating unit to try and keep the plant warm, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.720 so that you don't have to generate, you don't have 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.919 to burn as much energy to keep the plant running. 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:34.440 Right right now, they're not as efficient or it's not 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.800 cost effective yet. The cost effectiveness of the solid oxide 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:43.120 fuel cell that the target is four hundred dollars per 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.720 kilo WAT. Right now, it's about ten times that it's 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.560 that four thousand dollars per kilo WAT to run one 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.080 of these things. That's a problem. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.800 Well, I'd also like to point out that the solid 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.399 oxide fuel cells have been in the news recently in 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.159 a pretty big fashion. As a matter of fact, I 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.400 believe we've talked about one on this podcast not too 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.320 long ago. The bloom Box, Oh, the bloombox, bloom Box 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:15.639 bloom Energies, Bloombox fuel cells are solid oxide fuel cells, 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:17.920 and I don't know that they run exactly the same 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.879 way as the information in our article about that on 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.399 our side at imagine using a slightly different process. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.360 They probably do, because the ones that we're talking about 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:31.000 are mainly the solid oxide tends to often be used 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.320 come in the form of coal. Yeah, so you actually 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.639 have coal running a fuel cell, which you know, you 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.480 first sit there and think like, WHOA, that's weird. I 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.800 thought we were trying to get away from fossil fuels. 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.880 Not necessarily. In some cases, we may have to use 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.520 fossil fuels to create the hydrogen or whatever the compound 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:47.720 is that we're going to use in the fuel cell, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.800 because hydrogen is not the only one, it's just the 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.240 most popular one. But we may have to use fossil 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.680 fuels in that process to generate the fuel we need 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.040 to run to make the fuel cells go. There are 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.400 other types as well. There's the alkaline fuel cell. That's 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.160 the kind that we're that they that the Space Race 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.600 used quite a bit back in the sixties. Yeah, not 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:14.440 really use that much anymore. It's not it's not as 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.119 it's really expensive, it's not as reliable as some of 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:18.080 the other technologies. 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.320 Plus it requires pure hydrogen and oxygen. 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.439 Yeah, pure hydrogen and oxygen is hard to get your 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:25.560 hands on, or at least the pure hydrogen is. There 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.919 are fuel cells that can use hydrogen that's not one 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.960 hundred percent pure, but that also tends to take its 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.920 toll on the membrane. So again, the membrane is a 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.600 is a fairly delicate part of a fuel cell, and 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.520 if you damage that that membrane, then the fuel cell 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.720 is not going to work anymore. Also, I guess we 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.480 should also point out that a fuel cell, when we're 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.600 talking about a fuel cell, an individual fuel cell does 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.679 not generate that much power. It's when you have a 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:57.240 bunch of fuel cells working together that you can generate 0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:59.240 enough electricity. 0:19:58.840 --> 0:19:59.760 Essentially in an array. 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.959 Yeah, a fuel cell stack is usually what we call it, 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:09.600 being those of us in the field cell industry and journalists. Yeah, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.560 so an indidvidual fuel cell is like think of it, 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.639 like we talked about cell processors. A cell processor is 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.040 just one part of a group of processors that all 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.040 work together, same sort of thing. Fuel cell is just 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:26.200 one little electricity generation device that works with several others 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:30.080 to create enough electricity to actually do something. But you 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.399 also have the molten carbonate fuel cell, the phosphoric acid 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:38.720 fuel cell, the direct methanol fuel cell. These are all variations. 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.320 They all basically do the same thing, but they're doing 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.080 it through different ways, and some of them have different 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.600 operating temperatures, different parameters. Some of them are more reliable 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.760 than others, but they require such a high operating temperature 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:53.439 that you wouldn't want to use in a car, Like 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:55.520 you don't want to use a solid oxide fuel cell 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.439 in a car because you would die. You would have 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.040 to have such sheets, some sort of protective material to 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.440 shield you from the heat that your car would weighe 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.360 so much that it wouldn't matter how much of the 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.400 electrocity you're generting, because it wouldn't move anywhere. 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.199 It's gonna say, you'd have to use most of the 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:12.840 power for your air conditioning. 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.600 Yeah, yeah, either the air conditioning or just getting the 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.879 wheels to have enough torque to actually push that incredibly 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.680 heavy vehicle forward torque. Yum. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:28.440 So then we have the phosphoric acid fuel cell, and 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.359 you know those those are those a little smaller. 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.800 Yeah yeah, those aren't. Those aren't as huge. 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.480 But they have such a long went warm up time. 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.160 Yeah. So again, if you tried to if you used 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.919 a phosphoric acid jill cell in your car, you'd have 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:43.959 to start warming up your car an hour before you 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:45.200 were leaving, So that's. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:46.240 Not really sort of impractical. 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.000 Yeah, and the direct methanol fuel cell, again we're talking 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.199 about it's not as efficient. It can use methanol, but 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.600 since since the energy output isn't as great, it's not 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:00.640 really seen as a viable fuel cell. 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.640