1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 2 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio and I love all 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: things tech. Tech Stuff is several years old now. It 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: launched in two thousand and eight, so we've been around 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: longer than some tech has. And one of the early 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: episodes we did was way back on June twenty first, 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: twenty ten. How fuel cells work. This is one of 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: those technologies that people often turn to and they look 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: at that as a possible move forward to get away 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: from carbon emissions with vehicles in particular, and fuel cells 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: could do that if we met some other very tough challenge, 13 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: and so I thought it would be fun to listen 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: to this classic episode. This is from the Crispalette era 15 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: of tech Stuff. How fuel cells work. Enjoy. Now let's 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: tackle our subject, which is how fuel cells work. 17 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: Fuel cells the mystery, uh energy problem, savor of the future, 18 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: or sort of. 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: We would we would hope anyway. Uh yeah, fuel cells 20 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: are this Uh well, it's it's kind of like a battery. 21 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: You know. Let's let's go ahead and kind of define 22 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: what it does. It's an electro chemical energy conversion device. 23 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: Yes, Actually, that's that's sort of what I meant about mystery, 24 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 2: because everybody talks about how cool they are, but nobody 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: really knows exactly what they do. But they convert chemicals 26 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: into electricity. 27 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: That's like a battery. 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it is very much like a battery. Others. 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: There are some differences, which we'll get into, but in 30 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: general a fuel cell. What most people tend to know 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: about fuel cells is one they create electricity and to 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: their byproducts are heat and water. Yes, it tends to 33 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: be what most people know about apart from the people 34 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: who specifically work in the fuel cell industry. Clearly they 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: know a lot more than that. 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: Well, of course, we always see that mainstream media, you know, 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: reporter going out to the back of the fuel cell 38 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: vehicle and putting a cup underneath the tailpipe and drinking 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: the water, right, Yeah, and I think that sticks with us. 40 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: That's why we don't know that much more about it, 41 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: because we go, huh, that's really cool. 42 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you think about that, you're like, well, if 43 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: we have this energy source that can create electricity and 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: the only byproduct really is heat and water, and you know, 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: water's not toxic. It's not like water is going to 46 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: be throwing out greenhouse gases into the atmosphere or polluting 47 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: in some other way. Why don't we have more of these? 48 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: And really, the answer to that question is that the 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: technology is not sophisticated enough and reliable enough, and most importantly, really, 50 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: when you get down to it, cheap enough to do 51 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: on a widespread basis to allow us to switch to 52 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: a fuel cell economy. So let's let's kind of talk 53 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: about what how a fuel cell works, what it does, 54 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: where it came from. First of all, well, let's talk 55 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: about Sir William Grove. Okay, Now, Sir William Grove, he's 56 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: the fellow who kind of invented fuel cells, if you will. 57 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: All right, he knew this was back in eighteen thirty nine. 58 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: By the way, he knew that if you took some 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: water and you ran an electric current through the water, 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: it would produce hydrogen and oxygen. 61 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: Right, So splitting the molecules of water apart, Yeah. 62 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: It's called electrolysis. And actually this tends to happen with 63 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: various molecules. If you add enough energy to the molecule, 64 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: it tends to break the molecular bonds and it will 65 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: eventually break apart into its individual elements. Most molecules will 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: do this if you pour in enough energy. That's going 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: to be another important point later on. So Grove he theorized, well, 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: if you if you add electricity to water and you 69 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: get hydrogen and oxygen, if you then combined hydrogen and oxygen, 70 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: you should get water and electricity, you know, because you 71 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: know it should be the same coming out as it 72 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: is going in, right, that makes sense, So if you're yeah, 73 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: so he's like, well, how he ran some experiments and 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: he created what he called a gas voltaic battery, okay, 75 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: and in this gas voltaic battery, he then combined hydrogen 76 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: and oxygen and he realized that he got water and 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: he got free electrons, which you know, if you direct 78 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: free electrons through a path, that's electricity. 79 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: So there was a sign, a little sign on the 80 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: side of the said electrons free. 81 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. There was a protest held out of 82 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:47,799 Speaker 1: the cell. Fifty years later, you get a Ludwig Mond 83 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: and Charles Langer, and they're the ones who coined the 84 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: term fuel cell. Those are the guys who actually found 85 00:04:54,360 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: a fairly practical way to do this. That was easy repeatable, 86 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: so you could you could repeat the experiment improve. Yes, 87 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: something is happening here, because, of course we know in science, 88 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: just because you get a result doesn't necessarily mean that 89 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: you have proven your hypothesis correct. You need to have 90 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: a repeatable experiment that can be done by anyone who 91 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: has the facility to do it at any rate to 92 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: prove that that something really is going on. Yes, So 93 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: that's where we get into the fuel cells. And unlike battery, 94 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: like a battery is a self contained chemical reaction, and 95 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: it can and yeah, it's a chemical reaction. It can 96 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: very good. 97 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean nothing's going in, nothing's going out 98 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: except electrons. 99 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: Right, yeah. Yeah, the battery has chemicals inside it that 100 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: react together. The reaction produces electrons, and that is where 101 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: we get, you know, our little electric power from a battery. Yes, 102 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: fuel cells are a little different. You can pour fuel 103 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: into a fuel cell, thus the name, and it will 104 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: convert that fuel into the water and the electricity. So 105 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: as long as you have a supply of hydrogen and 106 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: a supply of oxygen going into the fuel cell, and 107 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: as long as the membrane of the fuel cell and 108 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: the other components remain remain viable, and we'll get into 109 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: that in a little bit. Uh, it should continue to 110 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: produce electricity. It's not gonna it's not like it'll die 111 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: after all the hydrogen runs out. If you add more 112 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: hydrogen and more oxygen, it should continue. 113 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: To work, right. 114 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so we've covered the basics there. Let's let's talk. 115 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: I'm gonna shift my notes around. I actually have paper 116 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: notes today. Wow, I usually don't do this. Let's talk 117 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: about the various components within a fuel cell. 118 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 3: Okay, we can do that, all right. 119 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: We've got the anode. Yes, Uh, the anode. It that's 120 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: the that's the negative post, not meaning that. 121 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: I know. 122 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: I was trying to try to listeners. I apologize. 123 00:06:58,279 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 3: I was not to finish. 124 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: I mean, we all suffered for that. Besides Chris, No, no, no, no, 125 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: it's good. So that's what's conducting the electrons and that 126 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: get freed from the hydrogen. So the anodes on one end. 127 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: On the other end is the cathode. Yes, it's the 128 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: positive post. So that's where the hydrogen. This is what's 129 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: conducting the electrons back from the external circuit. So I'm sorry. 130 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: We've got the anode. That's where when the electrons come 131 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: out from the reaction, electrons go to the anode, go 132 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: into a circuit. So whatever electric motor or a light 133 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: bulb or whatever, Right, the electrons continue their path once 134 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: they go through that circuit to the cathode. Then we've 135 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: got the electrolyte in the center. This is a usually 136 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: approach a proton exchange membrane. Thing of the membrane is 137 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: kind of like a force field. Now this force field will, yeah, 138 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: the force field will allow positively charged ions to pass through, 139 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: but will pell negatively charged particles. So electrons have a 140 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: negative charge. Yes, they cannot pass through the membrane. If 141 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: they could pass through the membrane, fuel cells would not work. 142 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 3: It is the bouncer of the fuel cell. 143 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: Yes, you may not come in, but we're not cool 144 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: enough because you are negative. 145 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: Exactly, but the close enough. So the so the high 146 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 1: hydrogen are the the hydrogen ions are positively charged because 147 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: they have given up an electron. Right all right, So 148 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: now essentially what you have a hydrogen ion is essentially 149 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: a proton. So you've got a proton. Protons are positively charged. 150 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: You've got this positively charged element there. It can pass 151 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: through the membrane. Now, why would it pass through the membrane. 152 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 3: To get to the other side. 153 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: But what's on the other side oxygen. Oh, and oxygen 154 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: has a negative charge. It so attracted exactly, the proton 155 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: is attracted across the membrane to the negatively charged oxygen. 156 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: If there were negative charge, that of the proton would 157 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: not necessarily migrate through the membrane. So when it migrates 158 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: to the membrane, it then combines with the oxygen and 159 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: you get the two hydrogens, the one oxygen together and 160 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: then the electron that had passed through the circuit. Remember 161 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: it passed from the node through the circuit into the cathode. 162 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: On that end, the two hydrogen atoms the oxygen atom 163 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: have combined into a molecule. The electron joins that molecule, 164 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: and that's when you get water, right, So you don't 165 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: have any free electrons at the end of this process. 166 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: It all recombines on the cathode end, and that's where 167 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: you get the water. There's one other element that's important 168 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: with this, and that's the catalyst. 169 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 3: Yes, and this is catalysts. 170 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: What they do is they help reactions. 171 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 3: Right. Then the thing that makes it possible to react. 172 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, otherwise you would have to pour even more energy 173 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: in in order for this to react, and it wouldn't 174 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: be viable at all. So it's a special material and 175 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: it it helps this reaction of oxygen and hydrogen. And 176 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: in most fuel cells that people talk about, tends to 177 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: be made out of platinum nanoparticles. So a nanoparticle, of 178 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: course is insanely tiny, like tinier than the microscopic scopic scale. 179 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: Right, but it is on a thin sheet of materials 180 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: with as much area as exposed as possible to facilitate 181 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: more reaction. 182 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: Right, So it's almost like you've spray painted a sheet 183 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: with platinum. And because you can imagine, that's pretty expensive. 184 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: Platinum is a precious that all. It's pretty rare. It's 185 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: hard to get your hands on it. Even when you're 186 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: talking about nanoparticles, which are really tiny. You're talking about 187 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: billions of nanoparticles. Yes, Like a nanoparticles is not going 188 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: to do much for you. So yeah, you definitely want 189 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: to maximize that surface area in order to allow the 190 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: reactions between hydrogen and oxygen to happen, or else your 191 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: your fuel cell doesn't do anything all right, So you're 192 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: pouring hydrogen in. You're you're pumping oxygen in. When I 193 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: say pouring, I really mean pumping, because you're probably pumping 194 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: hydrogen gas. You're pumping both into this fuel cell. They combine. 195 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: You get the electrons, you get the water. So why 196 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: don't we have lots and lots of fuel cells already 197 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: running all all of our power, all of our electronics. 198 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: You've already hit on it that what was that? The 199 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: biggest one being the cost? 200 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: That would be a huge one. Yeah, the platinum, that kind. 201 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 3: Of that's simply not it's simply not practical, right, Yeah. 202 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: You get down to it, you're like, well, a, in 203 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: an ideal world, we cost would not be would not 204 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: even be a consideration, right, we would just be talking 205 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: about the fact that this is clean energy that we 206 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: have and uh, and we could run our cars or 207 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: other devices, our homes, even powered plants, we could run 208 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: them on hydrogen and uh and then we we'd not 209 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: pollute and we'd have a nice clean energy source. But 210 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: it comes down to the fact that is an element. 211 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: It's not the only one either, of course. 212 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. The whole process of splitting the water into two pieces. Yeah, 213 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: well you know that's actually I guess should be the 214 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: source of hydrogen more than anything else. 215 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, source of hydrogen is a huge, huge problem. Hydrogen 216 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: does not It's plentiful, but not in its elemental form 217 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: on Earth. It's usually combined with something else like oxygen 218 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: to make water. It's not like there's a hydrogen mine 219 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: we can go to and mine hydrogen, pure hydrogen and 220 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: use that when we can get hydrogen from stuff like 221 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: hydrocarbon fuels or even water, as we pointed out by 222 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: breaking down compounds, right, which takes energy. Right, So in 223 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: order to get this fuel cell fuel, you already have 224 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: to expend energy to create the fuel. So now you're 225 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: looking at a fuel like an energy deficit situation. Does 226 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: it take more energy to create the fuel than the 227 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: energy you will get by using that fuel to power 228 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: a fuel cell? And as long as it takes more 229 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: energy for you to create the fuel than it does 230 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: to actually power whatever it is you're going to power, 231 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense. We already have a fuel that 232 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: does this, by the way, gasoline. Yes, gasoline. Actually it 233 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: actually takes more energy to create a gallon of gas 234 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: than a gallon of gas can create through putting it 235 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: through a motor or whatever. 236 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, because gasoline is a pretty inefficient fuel. Yeah, it 237 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: turns out, especially compared to a fuel cell. And you 238 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: have to again look at the entire life cycle. 239 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: You're not just looking at oh, well, how much how 240 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: much energy did it take to ship the gasoline from 241 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: the refinery to the to the gas station. It's also 242 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: how much energy did the refinery have to expend in 243 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: order to produce that gasoline? How much energy had to 244 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: be expended to to get the oil out of the 245 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: ground to eventually become what would what would eventually become gasoline? Right, 246 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: It's really a big picture thing, and that's that's the 247 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: real problem with a lot of these energy issues, is 248 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: that once you start looking at the big picture, you 249 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: begin to realize, oh, this is this is a much 250 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: more difficult problem than I originally imagined. We'll be back 251 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: with more in just a moment to talk more about 252 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: fuel cells. Now, there are many different kinds of fuel cells. 253 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought I. 254 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: Thought we were getting ready to hit that because the 255 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: one that we've been talking about, I guess, probably without 256 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: actually saying its name, is the polymer electrolyte membrane fuel 257 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: cell right, also sometimes. 258 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: Called the polymer exchange membrane fuel cell. 259 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: But same day. Why yeah, the membrane in the exchange. Okay, 260 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: I got it. 261 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: Yep, that's it. They're used in cars a lot, right, Yeah, 262 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: that's kind of the stuff we're looking at cars. See, Now, 263 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: some of these fuel cells work really well at a 264 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: certain temperature range, and outside that temperature range they don't 265 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: work very well at all. Now, the polymer exchange has 266 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: a couple of different issues that make it not the 267 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: most ideal method of a power generation within a car. 268 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: And one of those is that, well, I mean it's 269 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: heat range is okay, because it's it works best somewhere 270 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: around or one hundred and forty to one hundred and 271 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: seventy six degrees fahrenheit. 272 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you could. 273 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: You would first have to heat your fuel cell up 274 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: to this temperature for it to be able to work properly. 275 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: So there is a warm up period. It's not like 276 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: it's going to work immediately as you get in your car. 277 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: One of the things about the polymer exchange membrane fuel 278 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: cell is that it has to have a hydrated membrane. 279 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: The membrane must remain hydrated, which means essentially wet. All right, 280 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: So if you live in Minnesota. You know, the winters 281 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: in Minnesota get really cold. And when you get really 282 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: cold and you got water, you know what happens. 283 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 3: It freezes. 284 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't happen much here in it Lanta, but 285 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: up in Minnesota it could though. It could, Yes, if 286 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: the temperature fell far enough the water used to hydrate 287 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: that membrane, and remember the membrane is key to this, 288 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: to this exchange. If the water could freeze, that would 289 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: make the membrane extremely brittle and it could break, and 290 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: then you've got a broken fuel cell. 291 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: Right, So that seems problematic. 292 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a bit of an issue. And there are 293 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: other types of fuel cells. There's the solid oxide fuel cell. 294 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: Okay, this is this is one of my favorites. 295 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: This would not work well in the car. 296 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: No, no, not at all, simply. 297 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: Simply because it requires so much more in the way 298 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: of temperature for it to operate. 299 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it operates best between seven hundred and one thousand degrees. 300 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: Syntegrade. Yes, that's a that's pretty warm. 301 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's pretty pretty steamy. 302 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: But but steam, now that you mentioned that seed that 303 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: it generates, you know, steam as a result, and that 304 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: can be used to create electricity as well. 305 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can use the steam to generate to push turbines, 306 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: or you could even use the steam, well not just 307 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: or and you could use the steam to help heat 308 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: the facility. So let's say it's in the dead of winter, 309 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: the steam coming from this reaction could go back into 310 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: the heating unit to try and keep the plant warm, 311 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: so that you don't have to generate, you don't have 312 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: to burn as much energy to keep the plant running. 313 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: Right right now, they're not as efficient or it's not 314 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: cost effective yet. The cost effectiveness of the solid oxide 315 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: fuel cell that the target is four hundred dollars per 316 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: kilo WAT. Right now, it's about ten times that it's 317 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: that four thousand dollars per kilo WAT to run one 318 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: of these things. That's a problem. 319 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: Well, I'd also like to point out that the solid 320 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: oxide fuel cells have been in the news recently in 321 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 2: a pretty big fashion. As a matter of fact, I 322 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 2: believe we've talked about one on this podcast not too 323 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: long ago. The bloom Box, Oh, the bloombox, bloom Box 324 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: bloom Energies, Bloombox fuel cells are solid oxide fuel cells, 325 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: and I don't know that they run exactly the same 326 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 2: way as the information in our article about that on 327 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: our side at imagine using a slightly different process. 328 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: They probably do, because the ones that we're talking about 329 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: are mainly the solid oxide tends to often be used 330 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: come in the form of coal. Yeah, so you actually 331 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: have coal running a fuel cell, which you know, you 332 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: first sit there and think like, WHOA, that's weird. I 333 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: thought we were trying to get away from fossil fuels. 334 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. In some cases, we may have to use 335 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: fossil fuels to create the hydrogen or whatever the compound 336 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: is that we're going to use in the fuel cell, 337 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: because hydrogen is not the only one, it's just the 338 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: most popular one. But we may have to use fossil 339 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: fuels in that process to generate the fuel we need 340 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: to run to make the fuel cells go. There are 341 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: other types as well. There's the alkaline fuel cell. That's 342 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: the kind that we're that they that the Space Race 343 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: used quite a bit back in the sixties. Yeah, not 344 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: really use that much anymore. It's not it's not as 345 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: it's really expensive, it's not as reliable as some of 346 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: the other technologies. 347 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 3: Plus it requires pure hydrogen and oxygen. 348 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, pure hydrogen and oxygen is hard to get your 349 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: hands on, or at least the pure hydrogen is. There 350 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: are fuel cells that can use hydrogen that's not one 351 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: hundred percent pure, but that also tends to take its 352 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: toll on the membrane. So again, the membrane is a 353 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: is a fairly delicate part of a fuel cell, and 354 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: if you damage that that membrane, then the fuel cell 355 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: is not going to work anymore. Also, I guess we 356 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: should also point out that a fuel cell, when we're 357 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: talking about a fuel cell, an individual fuel cell does 358 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: not generate that much power. It's when you have a 359 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: bunch of fuel cells working together that you can generate 360 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: enough electricity. 361 00:19:58,840 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: Essentially in an array. 362 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, a fuel cell stack is usually what we call it, 363 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: being those of us in the field cell industry and journalists. Yeah, 364 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: so an indidvidual fuel cell is like think of it, 365 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: like we talked about cell processors. A cell processor is 366 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: just one part of a group of processors that all 367 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: work together, same sort of thing. Fuel cell is just 368 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: one little electricity generation device that works with several others 369 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: to create enough electricity to actually do something. But you 370 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: also have the molten carbonate fuel cell, the phosphoric acid 371 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: fuel cell, the direct methanol fuel cell. These are all variations. 372 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: They all basically do the same thing, but they're doing 373 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: it through different ways, and some of them have different 374 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: operating temperatures, different parameters. Some of them are more reliable 375 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: than others, but they require such a high operating temperature 376 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't want to use in a car, Like 377 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to use a solid oxide fuel cell 378 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: in a car because you would die. You would have 379 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: to have such sheets, some sort of protective material to 380 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: shield you from the heat that your car would weighe 381 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: so much that it wouldn't matter how much of the 382 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: electrocity you're generting, because it wouldn't move anywhere. 383 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 3: It's gonna say, you'd have to use most of the 384 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 3: power for your air conditioning. 385 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, either the air conditioning or just getting the 386 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: wheels to have enough torque to actually push that incredibly 387 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: heavy vehicle forward torque. Yum. 388 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 2: So then we have the phosphoric acid fuel cell, and 389 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 2: you know those those are those a little smaller. 390 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, those aren't. Those aren't as huge. 391 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 3: But they have such a long went warm up time. 392 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. So again, if you tried to if you used 393 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: a phosphoric acid jill cell in your car, you'd have 394 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: to start warming up your car an hour before you 395 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: were leaving, So that's. 396 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 3: Not really sort of impractical. 397 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the direct methanol fuel cell, again we're talking 398 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: about it's not as efficient. It can use methanol, but 399 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: since since the energy output isn't as great, it's not 400 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: really seen as a viable fuel cell. 401 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've seen I've seen some methanol fuel cells out 402 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: and about. In fact, it when I went to the 403 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 2: CEES in two thousand and eight, I believe it was Toshiba, 404 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken, had a methanol fuel cell powered 405 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 2: MP three player on display, which was pretty cool. You know, 406 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 2: it's not it's one of those things where you're like, really, seriously, 407 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 2: I have to pour methanol in this thing. But yeah, 408 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: I mean it's it was so small, you know, the 409 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 2: size of an MP three player that, you know, I 410 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: couldn't imagine it powering a building. 411 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 3: Or a car. It's much more tiny. 412 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: But that's what they talk about when they talk about 413 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 2: the possibility of using fuel cells to power say, laptop 414 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: computers and things like that. 415 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, personal electronic devices that kind of stuff. 416 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: It's still it still seems odd to me that you would, 417 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: you know, flip your laptop over and pour in some methanol, 418 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: and I guess it would probably be an external supply 419 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: of some sort. 420 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: My MP three player has a drinking problem. I was 421 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: going to talk very briefly about about the efficiency of 422 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: a fuel cell. This is kind of a complicated topic, 423 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: but let's h fuel cell efficiency depends on a lot 424 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: of different factors. Let's say that you have a fuel 425 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: cell that runs on pure hydrogen, and somehow you have 426 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: a reliable source of pure hydrogen, so you don't, you know, 427 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: there's no problem with actually getting fuel for it. 428 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 3: So eliminating that is an issue. 429 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, assuming that a pure hydrogen fuel cell has the 430 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: potential to be up to eighty percent efficient and generating electricity, 431 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: so you're getting eighty percent of the energy generated by 432 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: the reaction to actually become electricity. However, now then you 433 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: have to put it through an electric motor. So we're 434 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: talking about this for cars. So electric motors are not 435 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: one hundred percent efficient. They don't they don't convert one 436 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: hundred percent of electricity into one hundred percent mechanical power. 437 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: You lose some in heat. Yes, So let's let's say 438 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: you've got a really good electric motor, and the electric 439 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: motor is also eighty p efficient. You're getting down to 440 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: about sixty four percent of your of the power that's 441 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: generated by the reactions within the fuel cell to actually 442 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: do work. So you've got sixty four percent efficiency. Now 443 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: that's amazing compared to a gas powered automobile, yes, which 444 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: has got about twenty percent exactly, Like like Chris said, 445 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: gasoline's just not that efficient at generating power. Then you 446 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: think about, all right, well, what about electric vehicles, like 447 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: you don't know, a Prius, Well. 448 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 3: That's a that's a hybrid. 449 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: That's true, you know, compared if you're talking about a 450 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: pure electric vehicle. I'm sorry, I should have said a 451 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: pure electric vehicle. So it's just running on an electric battery. 452 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: Electric batteries on their own can be really efficient, like 453 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: ninety percent efficient. When you get to the electric electric 454 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: motor part, it eventually comes down to about seventy two 455 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: percent efficiency. We got a little bit more to talk 456 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: about with fuel cells, and we'll do that when we 457 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: come back. Now here's where you have to go into 458 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: the big picture again. Okay, how was that electricity generated 459 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: that went into charging the battery. 460 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: In a lot of cases, at least here in the 461 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: United States, we're talking about fossil fuels again. 462 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, coal power or something like that. Yes, So once 463 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: you factor into the coal power that was needed to 464 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: generate the electricity that initially charged that battery, you start 465 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: seeing the efficiencies drop. Now, if we assume that the 466 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: electricity was generated through some sort of renewable source, like 467 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: let's say a hydro electric facility, so no fossil fuels 468 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: went into producing this. Even then when you're looking at 469 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: the efficiencies, it goes to around it's in the mid 470 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: sixty percent, so sixty five percent, sixty six percent something 471 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: like that efficiency. So it's just a little bit more 472 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: efficient than a hydrogen car that's running on pure hydrogen. 473 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: And again, if we look at that with the electric battery, 474 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: we kind of had to look at it with the 475 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: hydrogen as well, like where did we get how did 476 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,239 Speaker 1: we get that pure hydrogen? Once you factor that, and 477 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: this is why it gets so complicated, you're like, well, 478 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: in the big picture, does it make sense to move 479 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: to hydrogen? So we first have to answer that question, 480 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: does it make sense to move to a hydrogen based 481 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: fleet of automobiles. Will that, from an energy standpoint make 482 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: sense or will we just be switching one inefficient method 483 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: for ultimately another one. That's that's one question. There's another 484 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: one though, that's even bigger. All right, how do we 485 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: build the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered vehicles? 486 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: Yes, this is a This is one of the problems 487 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: that organizations like Better Place, which is a car manufacturer, 488 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 2: or not car manufacturer. They are a systems manufacturer that's 489 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 2: trying to work out a way to make electric vehicles possible. 490 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 2: And they basically have been adapting vehicles to run on 491 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: as plug ins, which is all well and good, but 492 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: say what happens if you haven't had a chance to 493 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: get your car charged up, you know, and you are 494 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: running out of electricity. We're talking about the possibility of 495 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: stations where you could go and swap out your battery 496 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: for another you know, our battery array for another one. 497 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: And you know, that would be a convenient thing if 498 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: that already existed. But it's the same thing any kind 499 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 2: of alternative fuel to what we've got now, whether it's 500 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: you know, needing more hydrogen for your fuel cell powered 501 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: vehicle or requiring more batteries for an electric vehicle. There 502 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: just simply aren't, you know, power stations on every corner 503 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 2: like there are with gasoline vehicles. You're going to have 504 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 2: to either strike deals with those companies to do that 505 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: or start your own. That new one really expensive. 506 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: We're talking billions and billions of dollars, or as Carl 507 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: Sagan would have you, billions and billions of dollars. 508 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 3: You really need to jacket with the patches in the al. 509 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: Those for Yeah, it's a little too warm for that. 510 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: At any rate, Yeah, it costs. It's going to cost 511 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: a lot of money to build out that infrastructure, everything 512 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: from the actual facilities where they sell the hydrogen, to 513 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: all the vehicles that are going to be necessary to 514 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: transport the hydrogen, to the facilities that are there to 515 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: generate the hydrogen. It's not a small task. And the 516 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: Hydrogen Fuel Initiative just founded back in two thousand and three, 517 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: when was it lost it is it's working to try 518 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: and find a way of making fuel cell vehicles practical 519 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: and cost effective by twenty twenty. I think that's incredibly ambitious, 520 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: especially when you consider that their budget is pretty low 521 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of things, now, it would be 522 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: great if we could switch to a hydrogen based transportation system, 523 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: because then you're looking at you no longer dependent upon 524 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: on oil, and because so much of our oil comes 525 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: from foreign nations that may or may not have very 526 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: friendly relationships with us, it means that we're no longer 527 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: pouring money into governments or into countries that we may 528 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: think ultimately could use that money to do things that 529 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: are not within our country's best interests. Right, that's a 530 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: good way of putting it. I'm trying to like dance 531 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: lightly around the whole thing. But hydrogen we could produce 532 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: right here at home if we found an efficient way 533 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: of doing it, so it didn't, you know, so it 534 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: no longer costs more to create the fuel than the 535 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: fuel itself would would benefit us. Right, So that's how 536 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: fuel cells work. That's kind of the whole detail. Did 537 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: you have anything else to add before I go into No. 538 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's a lot more to it in 539 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: terms of the depth of the reaction and how all 540 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: of that works. 541 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: But no, I think we did pretty good job of 542 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 3: hitting the high points of it. 543 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it is a huge challenge, and we 544 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: may be one that we overcome. It's a little early 545 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: to say, but before we get there, I'm afraid we're 546 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: gonna have to answer a little listener mail. This listener 547 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: mail comes from Megan from Boston, Massachusetts, and Megan says, 548 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: I love the podcast, keep them coming. Could you please 549 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: dedicate one podcast to Internet Protocol Version six. I don't 550 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: fully understand why IPv four is running out of addresses 551 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: and how the switch to IPv six will be implemented. 552 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: I think that would make a great and informative podcast, 553 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: and I'm sure there are other listeners interested in this topic. 554 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 3: Thanks. 555 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: Well, it's not really a big enough topic to do 556 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: a full podcast on necessarily, but we can give you 557 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,719 Speaker 1: a real quick rundown on what the issue is. 558 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, the issue is basically your IP enabled cell phone, 559 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: and your laptop and your you know, and your tablet 560 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: and your three desktop computers, and your roommates gear, and 561 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: the people downstairs and everyone else in the building and 562 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: everyone else in the city and the county and the 563 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: state and the country and the world. 564 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 3: There's a lot a lot of. 565 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: Devices that everyone has now that use their own individual 566 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: IP address, And as as robust as IPv four was, 567 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 2: it just is going to run out of addresses with 568 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 2: all these new devices coming onto the network and not 569 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: retiring enough of them to make room. 570 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. See, IPv four is a thirty two bit address system. Yes, 571 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: and that when you translate thirty two bit into actual 572 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: integers and most you would have four billion, two hundred 573 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: ninety four million, nine hundred and sixty seven two and 574 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: ninety six addresses. Once those addresses are gone, that's that's it. 575 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: If you're on an IP four system, you cannot add 576 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: any more devices to the Internet because each device has 577 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: to have its own unique IP address. That's the way 578 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: the Internet works. If you don't have your own unique address, 579 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: you cannot send and receive information because the information wouldn't 580 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: know where to go. 581 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 2: Yep, so I was going to say too, sorry to interruption, 582 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: Go ahead. That one nice thing about the switch is 583 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: that it's they coexist. 584 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The IPv six uses one hundred and twenty 585 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: eight bit addresses as opposed to thirty two bit, which 586 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: gives you about three point four Okay, take a three, 587 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: put a four behind it, then behind the four, put 588 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: thirty eight zeros. Okay, that's how many addresses, So many 589 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: that we would not run out in the foreseeable future. 590 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: It would take everyone having everything they own be Internet connected, 591 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: and even then we still would have plenty of addresses 592 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: left over. So and yes, like you said, the two 593 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: systems can coincide. The issue about implementation is that that's 594 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: a an organization by organization process. It's not like there's 595 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: going to flip a switch and everything switches from IP 596 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: four to IP six. 597 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: And there's as far as I know, no official timetable 598 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: for migration, so people are sort of taking their time 599 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: to do that, although some people have already gone ahead 600 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: and upgraded their systems to run on IPv six. So 601 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: and I think pretty much all the mainstream operating systems, 602 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: you know, Windows, Mac, and Linux. 603 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 3: Will accept either. 604 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, so's it's not really an issue of having the 605 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: infrastructure in place. 606 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 3: It's just a matter of you know, doing it. 607 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, getting off your button, switching over and what I'm saying, 608 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: getting off your butt. I mean that as the organizations 609 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: that are all running these servers that are the kind 610 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: of the backbone of the Internet, and so we're kind 611 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: of at their mercy whenever they get around to switching 612 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: it over. And some organizations don't prioritize it very highly, 613 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: so it may be a while before everyone's over to 614 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: IP six. Now, whether we get to the point where 615 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: we run out of addresses before we before that happened, 616 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: that remains to be seen. That wraps up that look 617 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: back at How Fuel Sales Work, which originally published June 618 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: twenty first, twenty ten. Fascinating topic. I've covered it a 619 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: few times, actually talked about it in a different podcast 620 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: as well as I think I've covered it a few 621 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: times on tech Stuff. I wrote about it for How 622 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: Stuff Works back when I was still a writer for 623 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: that website and talked about it on camera a few times. 624 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: I think it's a really cool technology, one that is 625 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 1: incredibly useful for certain applications. I am still a little 626 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: skeptical about it taking a prominent place in vehicles, simply 627 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: because building out the hydrogen fuel infrastructure would require an 628 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: awful big investment. And I mean, there are certain dangers 629 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: with hydrogen that we would need to address, Like hydrogen 630 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: is hydrogen gas is incredibly flammable, so you definitely want 631 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: to make certain that whatever strategy you use is safe 632 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: and reliable. So also there's the whole thing about getting 633 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: hydrogen in the first place. I mean Hydrogen is the 634 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: most plentiful element in the universe, but it's almost always 635 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: bonded to something else, So you got to spend energy 636 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: in order to get hold of it. And if, however 637 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: you're doing that is taking up more energy than what 638 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: you're getting out, then it's a losing proposition, but still 639 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating. I think regular, old electric vehicles are probably 640 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: going to dominate. Fuel cells might still have a place 641 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: in the fleet, but I don't think it's going to 642 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: be the dominant way that we provide power to our vehicles. 643 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this classic episode of tech Stuff. 644 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: I hope you are all well, and I will talk 645 00:35:51,960 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: to you again really soon. Tex Stuff is an iHeartRadio production. 646 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 647 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.