1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. And now let's hear it for 4 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: our super producer, none other than the man himself, Max 5 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: flat Earth Williams. 6 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: I'm here and I'm like Kyrie Irving, I don't believe 7 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: the Earth is round. Just kidding, No, the Earth is round. 8 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you know that's an on air one eighty 9 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: from all the memes you've been sending me low these 10 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: many years. Our our colleague, my brother in podcast arms, 11 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: mister Noel Brown is on Adventures, will be returning very soon. 12 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: They call me Ben Bollen in various parts of the world, 13 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: and on this show in particular. Now we're going to 14 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: do something a little bit different today, folks, as Noel 15 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: is on his various adventures and quest that we can't 16 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: wait to hear about very soon. I have made a 17 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: bit of a covenant off air, and I've asked you 18 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: Max Williams, to serve some double duty as as a 19 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: guest co host here. So can I get you to 20 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: confirm on air that you're okay with that? 21 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, Frank, I was kind of tempted to tell you 22 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: no and make you just do the episode solo. But 23 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: they'll just chime in periodically, Yeah, just like once every 24 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: like fifteen to twenty minutes with just like random facts, 25 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: just seeing how awkward that be. But you know, I 26 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: actually have to listen to the episode a couple times 27 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: through the edit, and I don't know if I would 28 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: be able to get through all that cringe. 29 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Well, I am going to choose to appreciate that. And 30 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: I did cut my teeth, as you know, over the 31 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: decade plus now, I've cut my teeth doing some solo podcasting, 32 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: respect where it's due. I learned a lot of that 33 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: from our own nemesis, Jonathan Strickland aka the Twister. R 34 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: pal Dylan Fagan and I had had a show that 35 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: I soloed for a while called Strange News Daily. But 36 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: I couldn't be more pleased to have you riding with 37 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: us in the in the front seat here of this 38 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: episode's car. The car of this episode. 39 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's got a driving around the world. 40 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: The car. We're just driving around the world. So thank 41 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: you again, Max. This is this is going to be 42 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: a weird and interesting for us and I know that 43 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: it calls out to both of us specifically. This is 44 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: the story of how humans figured out Earth was round Earth. 45 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: Right as planets go, it's pretty great. I would say 46 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: three out of five. 47 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, three and a half. I mean, it doesn't boil 48 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: us instantly, but it's no Riza. 49 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: There we go right and Max, you and Noel and 50 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: myself and everybody that we have ever met, and everybody 51 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: that you've ever met, fellow ridiculous historians, was born here 52 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: on Earth. Human civilization, probably allegedly, so far as we know, 53 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: human civilization has spent thousands upon thousands of years learning 54 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: about this planet and all the things on or around it. 55 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: Surprisingly enough, here in twenty twenty six, there's still so 56 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: much more to learn along the way. We got a 57 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: few things wrong. 58 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of things wrong. And I mean, I 59 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: guess the topic of today's episode is kind of one 60 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: of these myths that I know I grew up with 61 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: at least, and I'm assuming you group as well. I 62 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: don't know if it's gotten out of it, but I 63 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: remember being in like first second grade that whenever what 64 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: is it October November, that day you're reading the books 65 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: you're learning about how this guy's Italian who was sailing 66 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: for Spain, went across the Atlantic Ocean, this real heroic 67 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 2: journey and discovered that not only was there another giant 68 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: land mass there, but that the Earth was round like 69 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: all of these things. And then later to find out 70 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: that while this guy did exist and he did sail 71 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: across the Atlantic Ocean to this continent, all the contexts 72 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: around this was lies. And also this guy sucks. 73 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, The beginning of the old rhyme goes in 74 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: fourteen hundred and ninety two Columbus sailed the Ocean blue. 75 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: A lot of us in the audience are going to 76 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: be familiar with this funny tall tale, Like you said, Max, 77 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: the idea that most of human civilization thought the Earth 78 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: was flat all the way up to the fourteen hundreds 79 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: when a real drip, a real pill named Crystal Baal 80 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: Cologne sailed the ocean and proved, hey, you don't actually 81 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: fall off the edge. It's a great story. It turns 82 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: out it is absolute fiction. And in today's episode we 83 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: are going to figure out when people actually learned the 84 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: Earth is round? And Max, when you and I are 85 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: are doing our bit as research associates for our various episodes. 86 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,239 Speaker 1: You and I in particular like to include little Easter 87 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: eggs right for Noel and myself, little things in the 88 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: notes that are not going to make it on the air, 89 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: or sometimes do. And just want you to know. The 90 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: top heading here is for us. I wasn't going to 91 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: say it on air, but I think we should. And 92 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: I want to thank you in advance for the beep 93 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: that you're about to give yourself. Can you give us 94 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: the title? 95 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, life used to be terrifying and no one 96 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: knew what was going on. Beep beep. 97 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: That's about the size of it, right exactly? 98 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean, depending on your origin story 99 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: or origin belief, it's not going to sit here or 100 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 2: stand here in my case and tell you what to believe. 101 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: One thing that can be agreed upon. Humans have been 102 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: around for a while, and for the vast majority of 103 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: time that humans have been around, survival has not been 104 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 2: the easiest thing. So if you're gonna sit around trying 105 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: to debate, I wonder if this world is round, you're 106 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: gonna probably just starve or get a cut and die 107 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: or be eaten by something. You're really kind of more 108 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: focused on this whole you know, surviving thing. 109 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's easy to take the shape of the 110 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: earth for granted today, or the shape of planets in general. 111 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:34,239 Speaker 1: And it's also for most of human history, for most 112 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: people who lived and died here. It was a very academic, 113 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: non important point. It's not the shape of the earth 114 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: is not something you can easily see with your own eyes, 115 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: because humans are in general very small in comparison to 116 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: the scale of the Earth. And you know, this has 117 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: happened to all of us in the audience tonight. You 118 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: have maybe traveled to a very flat part of the world, 119 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: like the endless plays of Iowa, or the Upper Midwest 120 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: here in the United States, or maybe the right kind 121 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: of desert environment. Then you get out and you look 122 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: around and it really does look flat. It looks like 123 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: it's just flat. It goes on forever. As a result, 124 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, we cannot blame ancient peoples and communities for 125 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: looking around and shrugging and saying, uh, yeah, I guess 126 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: that's the uh, that's the edge of the place. And 127 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: this reminds us of one of our absolute favorite video 128 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: game series or franchises, folks. Max and I are huge 129 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: fans of a game called Civilization so much so that 130 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: we will text each other about it. We will, we will. 131 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: Actually we've actually held off recordings sometimes just to talk 132 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: about updates on Civilization. 133 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a common go to for when we're QA 134 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: and stuff, so like listening through, you know, our ears 135 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: are occupied and I'm like, I'll start a play through 136 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 2: with Sweden before we really dive into this. Have you 137 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: converted to SIV seven yet or are you still on 138 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: SIV six? 139 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm still one controversial right now. I'm still 140 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: on SI six bro because it's uh, I'll even go 141 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: back to CIV five, but I'm still on Civilization six because, 142 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 1: like you said, it becomes a kind of comforting activity. 143 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: The way the game is designed is brilliant and it's psychological. Uh, 144 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: it's psychological manipulation to keep you just just rewarding you 145 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: a little bit every turn and keeping your attention. 146 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: But not hit stuff down. 147 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And there's something comforting and pleasing and the 148 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: repetition and the progress. It's it's similar to like a 149 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: fidget spinner almost, or for some people in the audience, 150 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: it's similar to uh, playing with the rosary. You know, 151 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: it continues, it continues ed, what about you, Max, What's 152 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: first off, what's the controversy between Civilization seven versus six? 153 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: Well, first and foremost, said Rosary, which after playing a 154 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: Hollow Night Silk Song, I cannot think of any differently 155 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: now because that's the currency in that game, and it 156 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: is the most brutal economy in any of the game ever. 157 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 2: That game is so hard, but it's beautiful. But I 158 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: have I have tried to go over SIB seven. The 159 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: controversy is, at least in my opinion, SIB seven is 160 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: not very good and SEB six is tremendous, And to 161 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 2: your point, also SIF five is also TREMENDOUSIF five is 162 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: way harder than SIB six in my opinion, though SIVE six, 163 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 2: I think is actually probably in my opinion, is pretty easy. 164 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: I tried a few months ago to go in seven, 165 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: but I just it just I think is just so 166 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: good that it's hard to get off of it. But hopefully, 167 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember when SIM six first came out, 168 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: it took me like four or five years to get 169 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: off of SIV five to this comfort. I was talking 170 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 2: to my dash about this and it's like, you know, he, 171 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: you know, eighties nineties video games. He was very in 172 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: that earlier wave like first like games coming Home and 173 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: eventually we'll talk about Around at Earth by the way. 174 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're getting to it. 175 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: But he I talked to him, and it's like, the 176 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: funny thing about sim is like it's the most entertaining 177 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: game of all time, and it's also like doing your taxes. 178 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: That's a perfect comparison, Max, because there is it's very procedural, right, 179 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: and there are formulas to learn, there are stats to 180 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: play with in balance. Here's why we're mentioning civilization the game. 181 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: We're mentioning it because civilization the phenomena gets a pretty 182 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: good depiction in Civilization the Game, regardless of which iteration 183 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: of civilization you play, it do this astonishing job of 184 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: depicting the experience of early ancient peoples. When you begin 185 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: the game, you've got your little tribe. You're probably placed 186 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: randomly on a world map, and at the beginning you 187 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: can only see a little bit of the land around you. 188 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: The rest of the world. The rest of the map 189 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: is shrouded in darkness. It only becomes visible as you 190 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: explore your planet and advance through the game. 191 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: Right, and very similar to how early people were. You 192 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: don't know what's around you, you don't know what dangers 193 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: around you, and survival is of all paramount importance. But 194 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: you know, unlike the game, you don't know you're about 195 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 2: to get sailing in five turns or three turns you'll 196 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 2: get a monument, or you're about to grow that tile 197 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: where you'll get a luxury resource. You're just trying to survive, 198 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: so you're not really busy try and figure out stuff 199 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 2: like as you wrote here, the shape of the planet, 200 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: existence on far away consonants. 201 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we've got at this point in history, we've 202 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: got other more practical concerns, as you said, chief of 203 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: which is not dying and staying alive, hopefully long enough 204 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: to reproduce. So these big questions of abstract concepts, like 205 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: the shape of the planet you live on, they're going 206 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: to be largely informed by religious beliefs and spiritual thoughts 207 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: instead of scientific inquiry. We got to tell you, we 208 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: always like to hit this point whenever we talk about 209 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: the ancient past. The people who were alive at this time, 210 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: they're not knuckleheads. They just had understandably different priorities. Civilization 211 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: took a while to grow. It took a while for 212 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: humans to figure out agriculture, which led to more stationary lifestyles, 213 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: and during that period, the majority of people lived and 214 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: died roughly in the same area they were born in, 215 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: So you would only have migration over long distances due 216 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: to social upheaval or disease or famine or war. So like, 217 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: even nomadic communities would typically have a set range of travel, 218 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: and they move back and forth from one place to 219 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: the next cyclically as the season's changed. 220 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: Right, Which makes sense because if you're going to the 221 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 2: same areas, you at least know what's there. You go 222 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: somewhere new, you don't know what's there, and discovering a 223 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: new place with a new biome is like basically going 224 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: to a new planet. Oh and to a point you 225 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: made a second ago about how you know people of 226 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: the past were not knuckleheads. I like to think about. 227 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: I like to do a thought exercise about how kind 228 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: of basically screwed I would be if you've removed away 229 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: Like some absumptions that we have in life, like I 230 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: don't know how to electrically wire something, but I can 231 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: do things with electricity, Like at least I can do 232 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: editing but if you took away electricity, I wouldn't be 233 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: able to fix it. We have this science, we have 234 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: this built up knowledge and accumulation over time. Where these 235 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: people were laying down the foundations of that stuff. They 236 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: don't have those foundations. So I think that's an important thing. 237 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: And to continue on that point, you know, critical thought, 238 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: construction of theory, all this stuff. Those are privileges. And 239 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: obviously you have some stuff like the early Phoenicians with 240 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: writing and stuff, but where your basic needs are not met, 241 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: it's hard to focus on other things because you have 242 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: to go meet these basic needs. 243 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, well said man. You have to advance past a 244 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: certain threshold of sustainability. You have to be able to 245 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: support some contingent to people in your community who are 246 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: not constantly just trying to survive, the people who for 247 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: some reason have enough of a support structure to sit 248 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: down and think about stuff. And when people first reach 249 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: that threshold in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and Latin 250 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: America Europe, there also was Okay, we eventually get the thinkers, 251 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: but we don't get a lot in the way of 252 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: fact checking. That becomes a thing way way later, and 253 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: humans are still you know, not super great at it. 254 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: So if you are Max Williams in the ancient past, 255 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: your understanding of the world is probably going to be 256 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: based on the statements of the local religious authority. They're 257 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: going to pitch you a story and you probably just 258 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: accept it, not because you know you are thick, as 259 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: the Brits would say or anything like that, but because 260 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: there aren't alternative explanations to consider. And in fact, if 261 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: you have an alternative explanation, or if you encounter one, 262 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: it's going to be treated as blasphemy. People often died 263 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: in cartoonishly gruesome ways for pitching other narratives. 264 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, check out our two part series of the Past 265 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 2: where we talk about his who were horrifically punished despite 266 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 2: being right. It is not the cheeriest series we did, 267 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: especially the second part which is just about Alan Turing, 268 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: which is just like, this guy was right about so 269 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: many things and history did him dirty. But yeah, and 270 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: to that point, it's just like, you know, I might 271 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: have it even thought, but you know, I don't have 272 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: theories and stuff. I don't have a way to prove 273 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: this wrong. And also it's just the fear of it all. 274 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: Like I know, we've done a past episode on the 275 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: origins of ostracize. Yes, pots smashing him and stuff like that. Yeah, 276 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: especially you see like one guy bring up maybe maybe 277 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: the Earth is round and he gets thrown out of 278 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: town and it gets eaten by a lion as soon 279 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: as it gets outside. I'm not going to bring that up. 280 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: Let's also consider one of my favorite parables in this genre, 281 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: which we mentioned in that previous episode. We can never 282 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: forget that the human being is a specific type of primy. 283 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: It's the kind of prime me that will kill its 284 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: own people for politely suggesting that you wash your hands 285 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: before surgery. Shout out to Samulweiss. He figured out a 286 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: way to save millions of lives. They beat the crap 287 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: out of them and threw them in an asylum. 288 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's not great, but yeah, thankfully though, 289 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: with time and evolution, this new group of people that 290 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: I think we both squarely belong in started to emerge 291 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 2: called nerds, and nerds like things we are kind of 292 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: it's kind of an obsession over things. And obviously there's 293 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: many types of nerds, but growing about people who really 294 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: liked things like geography, physics, math, space, and like, you 295 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 2: know what. They started doing was recording and keeping track 296 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: of this stuff, often getting horribly punished for proving things 297 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: that were right but right. If you want to hear 298 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: us talk more about that, check out some past episodes. 299 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: We're gonna just kind of breeze past that. Yeah. 300 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: Again, we just to give you the long and short 301 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: of it, folks. We cannot stress this enough. Society was 302 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: still actively killing a lot of these nerds or treating 303 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: them as absolute whack jobs. Yet a win is a win. 304 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: That's a bit of a quick context on science, religion, 305 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: the grim reality of human life. Now we get to 306 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: the myth. All right, we told you the pitch. The 307 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: pitch is this. The entirety of human civilization assumed the 308 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: world was flat all the way up until fourteen ninety two. 309 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: Crystal bol Cologne aka Christopher Columbus, aka a bunch of 310 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: different names that he gave himself. He sailed across the Atlantic, 311 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: he discovered the quote unquote New World, and the story, 312 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: the myth really paints him as a hero, and they say, 313 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: look at this, he's a ballsy guy. He convinces King 314 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: Ferd and Isabella, his Spanish patrons, to back him on 315 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: this wild, dangerous gamble and he stands up in front 316 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: of court and he says, Earth is round, and if 317 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: you give me the ships I need, I will sail 318 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: west and eventually I will land in Asia. Dude, this 319 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: story was so popular, he got printed textbooks, he got 320 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: taught in otherwise credible schools and halls of education. And 321 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: as you pointed out so beautifully at the top of 322 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: this episode, macks. A lot of us in the audience 323 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: heard this story as kids. It just happens to be 324 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: complete bunk. Yeah. 325 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 2: No, the story of Christopher Columbus is absolutely ridiculous. Is 326 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: just full of so much lies and propaganda and stuff. 327 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 2: I remember actually one time pointing out to somebody who 328 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 2: was trying to defend Christopher Columbus to me. They were saying, like, 329 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: he's like, oh, he's one of the greatest Americans ever. 330 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, he literally died undreds of years before America 331 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: was a thank buddy. You got to realize that, Like, 332 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: I get it, I get it. I'm not going to 333 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 2: sit here and tell people what believe and whatnot. But 334 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 2: that is actually just facts right there. But yeah, I mean, 335 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: as you put it, Chrissy Boy, ain't no hero. Yeah, 336 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: never was. And this whole Earth being round, which this 337 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 2: is the problem I have with the story completely. You 338 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 2: tell me, this guy went in front of the King 339 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: and Queen of Spain, a superpower of the time, and 340 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: told them that they're idiots and thinking the world is flat, 341 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna sell around them. And they're like, oh, 342 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 2: you know what, Sure, here's a couple of ships, go 343 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: do it. No, no one is that bad at investing. Yeah. 344 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, this was a shark tank moment, and the story 345 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: is unbelievable if only for that specific aspect. And there's 346 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: a historian who often gets quoted remarking about this guy 347 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: named Jeffrey Burton Russell, who points out, quote educated person 348 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: in the history of Western civilization from the third century 349 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: BC onward believed that the Earth was flat end quote no. 350 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 2: Education people living today. 351 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, everybody's catching strays on this one. So, if anything, 352 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: Chris had funding problems because he just underestimated the size 353 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: of the planet by a cartoonish amount. He thought Earth 354 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: was way smaller than it actually is. That was the 355 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: complication in his sharp tank moment. He spent years arguing 356 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: with King Ferdinand's people essentially about scheduling, about how long 357 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: it would take him to travel across the sea to China. 358 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: And also, as we can tell, he had no idea 359 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: that there were two gigantic continents between Europe and Asia 360 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: if you sail west. 361 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: Right, because it's like, you know, here's the thing, as 362 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: Magellan would later find, getting even just past this big 363 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 2: continent is ridiculous, Like getting across the Atlantic Ocean is 364 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: a lot. Going all the way down to Chile and 365 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: around is lot, and then you have the hardest task 366 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 2: of it all called the Pacific Ocean, which is massive. 367 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: Massive. 368 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I don't know the answer to this, 369 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: but just asking you do you do you know how 370 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 2: big he thought it was, Like how long it took 371 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 2: he thought it would take just to go from Spain 372 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: to India. 373 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: We know he underestimated the size of the planet on 374 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: the order of like twenty five percent. He thought it 375 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: was twenty five percent the side of its actual size. 376 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: Okay, so it's kind of like sailing across a big sea, 377 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 2: he thought. 378 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,719 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And that's not necessarily his fault, because you know, 379 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: they have very limited information available. But we are perhaps 380 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: being a little bit too credulous when we accept this 381 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: myth entirely. So how did this myth get started in 382 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: the first place? This is cool. It did not start 383 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: in Columbus's time, nowhere near it. And when we think 384 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: about that, that makes sense because his contemporaries, world leaders 385 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 1: and scholars of the day when he was sailing, they 386 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: already knew Earth was round, So it would not make 387 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: sense for them to care about this story. It would 388 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: be such a non issue. It would be as if 389 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: we got together and wrote a breaking news report that 390 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: Elon Musk has proved people breathe air. Everybody would read 391 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: the headline and go, why are Yeah, we know, like 392 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: we know. 393 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: So Weirdly enough, the myth of Columbus in the round 394 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: world didn't come until centuries after the fact, the actual 395 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: year being eighteen twenty eight, with a fiction writer. Let's 396 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: make sure to know that a fiction writer by of Washington, Irving, 397 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 2: who gained a interest and obsession with this guy with 398 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: this guy cologne, and so a little more on Irving. 399 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 2: He's a pretty famous writer. He published the book Rit 400 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: Van Winkle, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. I'm guessing you've 401 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 2: heard of those ben along with other stuff. And you 402 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: know this wasn't just some bloke. This guy was out 403 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: here hobnobbing and hanging out with the rich and famous. 404 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: He was well known and people, you know, when this 405 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: guy said stuff, they were like, Okay, let's listen to 406 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: this guy, including you know, his friends in you know, 407 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: the politics. 408 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So we see this happen in our modern 409 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: age of celebrity worship. You have probably seen those weird 410 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: articles where someone will say, what does jaw Rule think 411 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: about this geopolitical event? 412 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: Or what is your noct thinks about this? 413 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: Where is Jah? Yeah? Irving Washington. Irving is sort of 414 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: like that guy for these people. At the time. He 415 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: is friends with some of, as you said, the most 416 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: high flutant folks in the government. One of these guys 417 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: is a dude named Alexander Hill Everett. He is the 418 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: US Minister to Spain at this point in history, being 419 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: called the minister to a specific country, it's pretty much 420 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: what you would call an ambassador today. So Alex hits 421 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: up his buddy Irving and says, hey, man, come kick 422 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: it with me in Madrid. It's dope af or something 423 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: to that effect. Washington. Irving takes alex up on the offer, 424 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: so he travels to Madrid, which takes a very long 425 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: time back. Then he falls in love with this huge 426 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: archive of documents all about Christopher Columbus. He's feeling it, man, 427 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: and if for fellow writers in the crowd, you know 428 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Irving is inspired. He knows enough 429 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: to take the inspiration whenever it comes. So he tells himself, 430 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: I'm going to write a biography of Columbus. It's going 431 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: to be the definitive biography, and I'm gonna use all 432 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: this stuff I'm learning about him now. And it does 433 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: make sense, Max, because despite being just a terrible person, 434 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: Christopher Columbus lives this cinematic, fascinating life. In the course 435 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: of our research for this, by the way, we found 436 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: that even after he died, he still traveled way more 437 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: than most Europeans. 438 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 2: Right, So you know, I think we should probably take 439 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 2: this one go back and forth just to kind of 440 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: illustrate how ridiculous of a tour his body took. So 441 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: he initially dies fifteen oh six and he's buried in Valedoilid, Spain. 442 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: I totally pronounced that correct. But then three years later 443 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 2: his remains get taken and put into his family mausolem 444 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: or mausoleum actually named after the ruler Mausulus. Yes, it's 445 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 2: got to be buried in maslm over in Sevea. 446 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: And then in fifteen forty two his remains get transferred 447 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,719 Speaker 1: to Santo Domingo, Hispaniola, which is now in the Dominican Republic. 448 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: And then again a big time jump about two hundred 449 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 2: and fifty two hundred and fifty three years, if we 450 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 2: want to be specific, his bones are moved to Havana, Cuba, 451 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: and then even more later, one hundred years later, they're 452 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: shipped back across the Atlantic back to Servella. Am I 453 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: saying that one right, Sevilla Sevilla, Sevilla in eighteen ninety six, 454 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: So yeah. 455 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So what we're saying is this guy's whole existence, 456 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: sith lord of colonialism that he may be, his whole 457 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: existence makes for a real page turner. So it also 458 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: makes sense that Irving wants to write about it. But 459 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: there's an issue that you had you had just emphasized there, 460 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: Bax a little bit earlier. Our buddy Irving is an 461 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: excellent writer. He's an excellent author. We're not going to 462 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: take that away from him, but he's an excellent fiction writer. 463 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: He's an excellent fiction author. So even though Chris's life 464 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: is full of strange, fascinating events, Irving can't help but 465 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: judge it up with all sorts of embellishment and tall tales. 466 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: He doesn't want the facts to get in the way 467 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: of a good story, like our buddy Aaron Tracy said 468 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: talking about Roald Dahl. So Irving adds a little dramatic tension, 469 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: and he claims that Chris has fought the system, that 470 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: Christopher Columbus is the first real guy to claim Earth 471 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: is round, that he bucked this system of the day, 472 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: that he beefed with the church and the geographers alike, 473 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: that he talked trash to the royal court, tossed a 474 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: middle finger to the haters, and single handedly revolutionized scientific thought. 475 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: This is all malarchy. 476 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all made up. But when your fam it's 477 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 2: like Irving, and to a point earlier in this episode, 478 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: when you don't really have people who can sit up, 479 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: stand up and just say no, you're wrong, or like, 480 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: you know, obviously there's a lot more research at this 481 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: point in time, but you know, this guy's sat here, 482 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: he's famous, He's done all this research. He says, it's true, 483 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: who's gonna call him out? He is, as you wrote 484 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 2: here in your wonderful research brief. By the way, shout 485 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: out to Ben here for this research. He is phone 486 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: book famous, meaning he could write the most boring yellow 487 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: pages or white pages even thing, and it'll be a 488 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 2: runaway hit because he's just that famous. And so when 489 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: he publishes this book, A History of the Life and 490 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: Voyages of Christopher Columbus, massive hit released in four volumes, 491 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: wild praise, breathless reviews, McGraw Hills are already putting in their textbooks. 492 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 2: I'm making that last part up, but it might be true. 493 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: Prove me wrong. 494 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 495 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: In other ways, it's just it's a hit. Everyone wants it, 496 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: and everyone believes it. 497 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody who can read is talking about it, and 498 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: virtually everyone who snags a copy of this considers it 499 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: to be gospel, God's honest truth. Christopher Columbus told in 500 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: detail with one hundred percent accuracy. Other authors fall for 501 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: this as well. They pick up on the thread. They 502 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: cite Washington Irving extensively, especially other famous authors like the 503 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: French guy Antoine Jean le Troum. This BS becomes accepted 504 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: as historical fact and That is why even today you 505 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: will still hear some people falling for the whole thing. Now, 506 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: we got to give credit where it's due. Nice one, Irving. 507 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: We don't know why you did it, but you pulled 508 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: it off. 509 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: Man, Thanks, Bud, You're so great, you really you know, yeah, 510 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: help that lout. But I mean, I guess you know, 511 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: are we any better than Irving if we don't tell 512 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: the truth? I mean, obviously yes we are, but not 513 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 2: by large enough margin that I think we should probably 514 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: dive into it. So again, you know, as we've mentioned 515 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: multiple times in this episode the show everything, ancient people 516 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: were just as smart as us. And you know there was, 517 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: you know, some very smart people, some very dumb people. 518 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: There's some good people, bad people, blah blah blah. They 519 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 2: just didn't have the same access that we have now. 520 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: They didn't have this foundation of knowledge that we had. 521 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, they had their own pantheon of pet peeves, 522 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: just like everybody does today. They had their own goals, 523 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: they had daily annoyances, fart jokes. Then is now we're 524 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: still peak comedy. Not everybody was exceptional, But I love 525 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: the point you're making, Max. The vast majority of people 526 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: are far from stupid. They just don't have They don't 527 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: have things like in psych with pedos right. They don't 528 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: have communication channels that allow them to see alternative viewpoints, 529 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: or the opportunity podcasts right for better or worse. I 530 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: love the idea of a medieval podcast or late antiquity podcasts. 531 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: They don't have these opportunities. But humans have always been 532 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: pretty good at observing the world around them. We know 533 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: as far back as the fifth century BCE they're written 534 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: explorations or speculations about Earth as a sphere that comes 535 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: from various Greek philosophers. Then you go a little further 536 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,479 Speaker 1: to three hundred BCE because, as you and I were 537 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: talking about off air, BCE counts down. 538 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, we see something so anxiety inducing because you're just like, 539 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: every year you're going down in number, and you're like, 540 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: what are we counting down to? How bad joke draw 541 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: myself for that one? 542 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: No, that's great though, you know, let's keep the bad 543 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: joke going because I've always thought it had to be 544 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: weird for Jesus Christ, you know what I mean, He's 545 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: growing up and it's counting down, and he asked, he 546 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: asked God, why the system is counting down, and God 547 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: is like, let's put a pen in that. 548 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 2: You'll know soon enough. 549 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: Exactly right. There are other jokes we could do here, 550 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 1: but we're gonna keep it pg. Thirteen. So all right, 551 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: it's three hundred BCE circa thereabouts, and there's a Greek 552 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: ethnographer named Megasthenes and Megas Theenes shouts out Brahman nerds 553 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: in India, and he says, these guys have already figured 554 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: out Earth was a sphere, although to be fair, they 555 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: did also argue that Earth is not just a sphere 556 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: but the center of the universe. This is a classic 557 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: common human mistake that was a lot. 558 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 2: More work to, right. I mean, that's the one you 559 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: can just you can't really. I mean, the well known 560 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: fact is you can go by the ocean and get 561 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: on something high, you can see that the Earth is round, 562 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 2: it starts rounding. 563 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 564 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 2: You can't go look at the stars and figure out 565 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: that we're rotating around that big bright thing that you 566 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 2: shouldn't stare at. 567 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the perspective is so strange. It will take 568 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: it will take a lot of other very clever people 569 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: to even prove the heliocentric model of the planets, and 570 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: then when they prove the heliocentric model for a time, 571 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: they argue that the Sun is the center of the universe. 572 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: So you know, it's a work in progress, it's a 573 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: learning thing. Around the same time, in this period in 574 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: BCE BCE history, Hellenistic astronomers proved the spherical shape of 575 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: Earth as a concrete fact through math. They also attempted 576 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: the first known calculations of Earth's circumference. This knowledge later 577 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: migrates slowly throughout Triumphant Disaster to the Romans. Then it 578 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: spreads again slowly throughout what is sometimes called the Old World, 579 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: through late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, and then our 580 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: returning guests that you mentioned just a few minutes ago. 581 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: Ferdinand Magellan and company finally demonstrate the concept that the 582 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: Earth is round. They experientially prove it, beginning in fifteen 583 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: nineteen by literally circumnavigating the globe, sailing around the planet 584 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: in an amazing, preposterous, disastrous expedition that was, to your 585 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: earlier point, literally more dangerous than space travel is today. 586 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: And Magellan didn't end his story the way he would 587 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: have preferred. 588 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 2: Didn't he die on that journey. 589 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: I can't remember, yeah, yeah, non consensual death as well. 590 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: Did he get put in a in a barrel of 591 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 2: pickles like Frederick Barbarossa or did they respect his body? 592 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: To our knowledge, he did not end up literally pickled 593 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: in a barrel. But there's a reason you're bringing this up, Max. 594 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well see that kind of just seemed to 595 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 2: be a thing, a thing people did. So Frederick Barbarossa, 596 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: when he was doing a crusade, how he died. We 597 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 2: actually have an episode of an episode about this. He 598 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 2: got annoyed at his army, he rode off on his own. 599 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: His horse threw him off on a river and he 600 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 2: drowned it covered in armor, and his son wanted to 601 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: preserve his body, so he put him in a barrel 602 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 2: of vinegar, thinking that would work. It didn't. But then 603 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 2: we also had, you know, a recent classic where we 604 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: had a famous admiral I think it was a barrel 605 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: of brandy they put him in, Yeah, because they were 606 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 2: trying to I mean, yeah, trying to preserve the body. 607 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 2: You're These journeys took a very long time, so I 608 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 2: was curious because I don't remember which part of the 609 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: journey Magellan died, Like I think they were in the 610 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 2: Pacific Ocean. 611 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: By that point. Yes, yeah, you're correct. They were over 612 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: in the Philippines and they spent several weeks there attempting 613 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: to convert local populations to Christianity. Eventually they got caught 614 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: up in something we call the Battle of Machtan today, 615 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 1: and Magellan got struck by a spear and then surrounded 616 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: and murdered with other weapons. This is not the way 617 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: he wanted to go out, but his journey did did 618 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: become the first solid proof that the Earth is a sphere, 619 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: and and he was just proving something that people have 620 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: known since before the time of Jesus Christ. That's the thing. 621 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: So don't fall for the Columbus grift whatever. 622 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: You proving that. Showing up at some place and telling 623 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 2: a bunch of people that what they believe is wrong 624 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: and you need to follow that is not a popular 625 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: thing to do. Improve that. 626 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 3: Yes they did, Yeah, that was the the The actions 627 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 3: of Bacton were perhaps one of the more violent predecessors 628 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 3: to fact checking. 629 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll take that, Yeah, no, I'll take the drummerriff. Okay, no, no, 630 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: you're right, you're right. So Max, I cannot thank you 631 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: again enough for hopping on and and co hosting this story, 632 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 1: which is obviously pretty important to both of us because 633 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: we were misled in our formative years, as was our 634 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: brother in podcasting arms, mister Noel Brown. 635 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,399 Speaker 2: Yeah. I know, it's been an absolute pleasure of being 636 00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 2: on here. It's not that hard to track me down 637 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 2: and get me on air, you know, it's kind of around. 638 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 2: But I didn't want to leave us with one quote 639 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 2: from my favorite band of all time, Modest Mouse, and 640 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 2: the line is, yeah, the universe is shaped exactly like 641 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 2: the Earth. We go straight, long enough, we'll run into 642 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 2: an ice wall that'll stop us. Special thanks also to 643 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 2: our composer and my real actual facts brother, Alex Williams. 644 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: Yeah you have you have me in the first half 645 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: on that Modest Spouse riff. I'm not gonna lie. That's 646 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: one of my favorite songs of their. 647 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,959 Speaker 2: It's an amazing song. This is my senior quote. 648 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: It's a beautiful, beautiful song. And this that you're hearing 649 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: is a beautiful song made by as you said, Alex Williams. 650 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: We also want to give a big thank you to 651 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist, aj Bahamas, Jacobs, Doctor Rachel 652 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: Big Spinach, Lance and then our peer show Ridiculous Crime. 653 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: If you like us, you'll love them Max. Who else 654 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: do we want to think? It could be a random person? 655 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: Do you want it ain't modest? Mouse? 656 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 2: Let's thank my friend Rob Okay, it's gonna shut him out. 657 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 2: Oh my friend Eric who just had his first child 658 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 2: last week. Congratulations Eric, because gives them sleep. Hot Just kidding, 659 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 2: You're not gonna get any sleep, you fool. 660 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 1: And, as my pal Lule always likes to say, we'll 661 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: see you next time, folks. 662 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 663 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.