WEBVTT - The Lie Behind "Having It All" + the Real Gender Gap Nobody Talks About With Corinne Low 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.080 And who says? 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:30.600 So? 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.920 Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:42.520 to question everything. Hello, my friends, I hope you're having 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:47.920 a beautiful week. I am recording this from Tucson, Arizona. 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.760 I met Kenyon Ranch for a three day respit. I 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.200 am getting massages and relaxing and trying to recover. I 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:57.720 know you can probably hear in my voice that I'm 0:00:57.720 --> 0:00:59.840 still a little under the weather. And then I've had 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:03.840 a straight to New York for Tribeca. So next week 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.160 I'll keep you posted on how all of that was. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:08.679 Last time I was there, I got to interview Robert 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.600 de Niro, which was spontaneous and so fun. He started Tribeca. 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.200 He co founded it, which is a fun fact I 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.959 didn't know years ago when I started going. Okay, I 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:23.200 want to jump into today's episode because it well, it 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:28.760 blew my mind. My therapist said something to me recently 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.440 that I have not been able to stop thinking about. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.640 She said, Danielle, you are not the problem. You just 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:37.920 want to date like a man in a society where 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:38.520 you're a woman. 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:40.120 Stay with me. 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:42.560 You all know I'm obsessed with my work, and I've 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.399 always been obsessed with my time. I guard my calendar 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:50.840 like it's Fort Knox. I travel constantly, I disappear into projects, and. 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:52.920 I want a big career. I want to build things. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.080 I want autonomy, I want purpose, and I also want 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.840 to be married with kids. And every once in a 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.840 while I find myself thinking, oh my god, I'd make 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.640 a great husband. And not because those are male qualities. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:06.040 They're not. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.919 But historically, the person who got to organize their life 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:15.200 around ambition and independence was usually the man. Someone else 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.680 was often absorbing the invisible work, the scheduling, the remembering, 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.240 the emotional labor, the listening, the birthday gifts, the childcare, 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.239 the grocery list, the doctor's appointments, the making life actually work. 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:29.000 I don't have to list it off. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.400 I know every single person listening knows what I'm talking about, 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.840 and That's where today's conversation begins, because one of the 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:40.760 biggest lies that women have been sold is that equality happened, 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.760 that it already happened. We entered the workforce, we got degrees, 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.359 we started companies, some of us became breadwinners. But at home, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:55.520 the social contract didn't evolve nearly as fast. Women still 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.960 perform trillions of dollars worth of unpaid labor every year. 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.160 And I know, unpaid labor sounds like one of those 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.120 buzzy academic phrases, and everybody sort of like nods along 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:06.960 without really understanding, or at least I do, But I 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:08.000 want to make it tangible. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:10.440 Most studies suggest. 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.280 That men enjoy nearly four hundred more hours of leisure 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:18.000 time every year than a woman. That's ten extra forty 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.840 hour work weeks ten weeks. Imagine someone handed you ten 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:23.600 additional weeks of your life every year. 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:25.200 What would you do with them? 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.960 Build a business, write a book, sleep, exercise, knit, stare 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.680 into space. I mean, lots of us aren't even imagining 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:35.960 what we would do with those hours because many women 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.240 are already spending them. We're just spending them on care, 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.640 which means many women aren't working one job they're working two, three, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.960 or four and they're trying to do all of them 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:52.760 exceptionally well. But what changes this dynamic, Well, if you're 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:54.880 married a true partner. 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.640 You're not just shopping for sexy, because sexy is going 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.840 to wear off when you're cleaning his toothpaste off bathroom sink, 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.520 like he's not going to be sexy in the same 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.120 way anymore. And what's going to be sexy is somebody 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:10.080 lightening your load so that you can be a full person. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.360 And that's where our guest today comes in. Karin Low 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.120 is an economist, professor, and author whose work explores what 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.800 she calls the economics of being a woman. Her book 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.320 Having It All, What Data tells Us about Women's lives 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.720 and Getting the Most out of Yours reveals something that 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.680 many women feel every day but really struggle to explain. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.960 We're doing more than ever before, and yet somehow still 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:39.479 feel like we're falling behind. Karin says, it's the trap. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.240 Ultimately, your marriage cannot be happy if both people are 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.920 not self actualized, because if somebody doesn't feel like this 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.839 partnership supports them and becoming the person that they want 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:55.400 to be, then ultimately it is really hard to sustain 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.599 that love and affection to that person who's actually kind 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.799 of become the headwind or the forest that's holding you back. 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:04.440 My mind was blown when she said that, because we've 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.479 had conversations about invisible labor on the pod before, and 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.479 I always feel really connected to them, but also like 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.000 it's a bunch of data where it can feel man 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.400 hatary or anti marriage or complaining, and I don't want 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.719 it to be any of that. And Karin put into 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.800 words what I've been searching for. It's really about being 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.040 able to become. And whether you agree with her or not, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.680 our conversation today centers on a question that I think 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.960 only you can answer for you. What does becoming and 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.440 having it all look like for you? And what are 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.480 you willing to trade for it? Because every life has 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.440 a series of trades, and sometimes, whether we realize it 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.480 or not, women are making trades inside a social contract. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:48.839 That we never actually agreed to. 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.920 So today we are talking about the economics of being 0:05:53.200 --> 0:06:02.119 a woman. It's time to question everything with carinla Courin. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.200 I'm so happy to have you here today. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.760 Thanks so much, can't wait to dive in with you. 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.080 Well, you and your work really embody the idea of 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.760 questioning everything. You're turning so many of our societal norms 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.919 on its head, and you're using economics to do it. 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.479 And I became particularly interested in this book because you 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.800 and I met at a Gloria steinem event. But I 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.960 threw a separate event with this woman, Susie Welch, who's 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.640 a professor at NYU, and you know her. 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.120 She has this class by Becoming You. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.520 So I love the class so much that Susie and 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.680 I threw an event together for a bunch of New 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.000 York influencers to experience. It was one day and there 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.280 was probably ninety people there. And one of the questions 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.280 that Susie asks is sort of a pun or a 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.080 play on whose line is it anyways? 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.279 And it's whose life do you want? Anyways? 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.320 And you pick people whose lives look interesting to you, 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.080 and you have two columns you say, here's what I 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.040 like about their life and here's what I don't I 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.320 don't find interesting or want about their lives. So, just 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.200 for an example, I said Hillary Clinton as one of mine, 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.160 and I said, you know, she was a question asker, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.480 a culture changer. She pushed for change with her intellect, 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.800 she wanted to spread good ideas, And then in the 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.120 column of what I didn't want was like, I don't 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:22.640 want to marry a politician. I don't want scandal if 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:24.920 I can help it, you know. So I have a 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:26.480 whole list of what I do like and what I 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.800 don't like. And out of the ninety women there, who 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.800 were all ages, all races, all ethnicities, all religions, I 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.520 would say seventy five of them had Emma Greed's name 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:40.040 written down on whose life they wanted. 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.080 Oh and here's what I found so interesting. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.760 The reason that they had Emma Greed's name was an 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.800 assortment of reasons. Some people said, she has this big 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.080 career or a husband or kids, but ultimately it. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:56.800 Came down to she had it all. 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.000 She had the big career and a husband who she 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:05.120 seemingly loves, and children, and she looks glam doing it, 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.640 and she has a nice house with art on her walls, 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.240 and she's traveling and seemingly healthy and has friends, etc. 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:17.160 And your work indicates that having it all is basically 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:17.720 a trap. 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:20.840 So I have to dig into it with you. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.320 Before you wrote this book, were you striving to have 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:24.720 it all? 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.400 I mean absolutely, I was striving for a life it 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.200 didn't have trade offs because I didn't think when I 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.400 looked to my male colleagues or when I looked to 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.000 successful people, and I didn't think of myself just as 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.040 a woman. I thought of myself as someone who could 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.520 be successful in my own terms, and I didn't see 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.240 that you had to have these intense trade offs, you know, 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.320 between investments in your career, investments and family. So I 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.240 wanted a life where I got to go shopping in 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.280 the grocery store for the career that I wanted, a 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.920 family life. I wanted the relationship that I wanted, right, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.440 And I think one of the things that really like 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.840 in the case of Emma Grade's life, really masks a 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.840 lot of those trade offs is a tremendous amount of wealth. 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:11.720 And you know that wealth like can lessen some of 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.000 those feelings of trade offfs some of those feelings of 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.120 like the squeeze, right that I talk about in my 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.360 work about how we often feel squeezed and that we 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:22.640 can't put time into everything that we want. So, yes, 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.640 I think that that's really interesting because I absolutely think 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:27.880 that that's something that she's been projecting, is that there 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:29.720 don't have to be trade offs. Like when she goes 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.839 around on interviews, she's saying, well, women just can't sit 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.559 in their living rooms. They've got to get out to 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.520 the office, and you know, they've got to just work 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.080 harder to be successful. And then you can be like me. 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.320 And it's like, but we can't, Emma, because people are 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.400 struggling to afford childcare. You know, people maybe like need 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.679 to be spending that amount of time with their kids, 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:53.800 and you know, they are facing these trade offs they 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.800 don't maybe have the support of a partner. And then 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.520 she's also you know, I've been going by about this 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.280 three hour parent thing, saying, you know, she only wants 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.000 to spend three hours with her kids on the weekends. 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.480 And there is a place where you know, I always 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.280 caution to people that you have to understand the values 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.320 behind the life that somebody is living. And so for me, 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.640 that's not consistent with my values, like I want to 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:18.199 spend a lot of time with my kids. I want 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:19.840 to spend much more than three hours with them on 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.800 the weekend, and that is going to create trade offs 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.320 in other areas of my life. That that is time. 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.880 Time is a limited asset, the same as money. I 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.080 can only invest in so many places, and so if 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.720 I'm making that choice that that's time that I value, 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.160 then I'm not spending my time budget someplace else. So 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.600 I think she really is going on this press tour 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.240 that's saying there doesn't have to be trade offs, and 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.160 so I'm not surprised that it's aspirational. But I love 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:48.760 your answer, Hillary Clinton, because I think basing that aspiration 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.920 around someone who's beautiful and rich and everything feels seamless 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.320 and without trade offs is like continuing to sell that 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.520 lie to women and ultimately making it harder for us 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.160 to have our version of it all. 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.400 You know where I get stuck, and I think so 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:05.920 many women get stuck based on that room that I 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.679 was in, was I know it's a trap, Like I 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.880 totally recognize that it's a trap, and I still want 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:14.920 it all. 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.800 But what you want is to be happy, right yeah, 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.240 because I do, Like, for example, my life doesn't look 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.840 anything like Emma Greeds, right this idea, and Emma Greed's 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.559 life does not look anything like Emma Greed's. Okay, her 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.160 real life behind the camera is not on Instagram, does 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.080 not look anything like what you see. And so first 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.840 let's start there. Anytime you're comparing your whole, messy reality 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.040 to somebody else's highlights, right, you're gonna feel this dissonance 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.280 of like, well, I just wish I was in cute 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:48.040 outfits all the time. It's like she's not in Q 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.160 outfits all the time. Right places in her house where 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.560 there's a mess, or there's a housekeeper who she's able 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.680 to afford full time who just cleaned it up, and 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.320 her and her husband fight, right, and some times her 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.480 kids have meltdowns, and none of that is on the GRAM. 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.520 But totally, my life doesn't look anything like Emma Greeds. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:14.600 I'm not effortlessly perfectly rich, thin, glamorous. I constantly feel 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.120 like my house is too messy. I'm like struggling so 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.200 hard to like me and my wife together, trying to 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.640 like landscape our backyard, and it just is like such 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.400 a like and I'm sure like she would snap her 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.200 fingers and like somebody would be there and it would 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.680 already be done right, So like, my life doesn't look 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.560 anything like Emmagreeds. And my life is rich and happy 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.839 and full with a career that I love where I 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:35.400 get to do work that I feel like is really 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.000 high impact with kids that I get to spend time 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.080 with and raise the way that I want to with 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.200 a partner who I love and have a great relationship with, 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.360 which is all hard one. If you read the book, 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.320 it's like, how did we get here? It's like a 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.440 very long journey, right, Yes, But I think for your 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.960 life to be happy and full and for you to 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.040 have that like it all of like a successful career 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.200 and a successful family life, it still doesn't have to 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.679 look like Greeds and I just totally by holding ourselves 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:07.080 up to that standard, we're offering our own unhappiness. In 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.360 the same way that I think all of this stuff 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.640 that we're chasing of again really wealth, like the consumer goods. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.200 It's like that I've got to have her wardrobe and 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.560 handbags and my house has to look like that. Like 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.040 all of that is eating away at the joy that 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.600 we can experience from like the real life that's right 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:23.560 in front of us. 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.600 So I want to go backwards because you mentioned that 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.000 you have this beautiful life built on the values that 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:35.000 you hold true, but you didn't always have that. You 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.680 start the book in the bathroom of an Amtrak train, pumping, 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.240 crying and realizing that you won't make it home in 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.200 time to put your son to bed, and you have 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.880 sort of like a version of an adult meltdown. 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.079 Right, Yeah, so can you tell me about that? 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.360 Yes, So I told you I had dreamed of this 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.360 life for myself that didn't have these trade offs, and 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.680 I just found this idea deeply unfair and I still 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.160 do find it deeply on But like you know, I 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.920 was the twelve year old feminist who was signing petitions 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.040 to say that girls and boys shouldn't be treated differently, 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.160 and so, in my view, like I was going to 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.720 have the career that I wanted, and I didn't really 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.720 think about how a partnership intersected and a marriage intersected 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.800 with that. I just kind of took each decision as 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:18.800 it came. It was like this guy's nice, and I 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:20.760 married him, and you know that was like, okay, and 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.520 now I kind of want a baby. Let's have a baby, 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.640 and we'll make it work because our lives are working 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.240 so far. And you know, I say gave birth to 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.280 my son, and I gave birth to a midlife crisis 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.840 because everything that was working, which was me commuting from 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.280 New York City to Philadelphia for my job and being 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.080 on the tenure track at Wharton, which means you have 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.600 to publish a certain number of papers before you come 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.360 up for this tenure review or you literally get fired, 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.120 right you have to find a new job. So all 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.840 of that stuff that was working and my marriage stopped working, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.440 and I felt like I was falling behind my male 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:55.600 colleagues at work. I felt like my home life didn't 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.440 look anything like what I wanted it to look like. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.160 It wasn't effortless, it wasn't perfect. We were, you know, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.840 struggling for money because we both had good jobs at 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.120 the time. He later left his job, adding to the strain. 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.640 But even when we both had good jobs, you know, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.720 we were in New York City where you know, you're 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.720 constantly kind of struggling to keep up with the joneses. Yeah, 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.680 and just the basic cost of living. But what does 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.960 it cost to have an apartment and to have you know, 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.640 childcare and all of those things. And I was surprised 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.800 by my when I talk with those values, like I, 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.200 as this staunch feminist, never thought I would be the 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.040 mom crying because I'm not going to make it home 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:30.880 to bedtime. I never thought I would be the mom 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.560 pumping on the Amtrak bathroom because I was that committed 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.000 to breastfeeding and to making that work even after going 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:37.680 back to work, and I had to go back to 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.160 teaching classes like a couple months after my son was born, 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.080 because of course, we don't have real family life in America, right, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.120 So I just never thought that that was going to 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:47.840 be me. I never thought those trade offs were going 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:49.560 to be so big, And then I felt all of 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.520 them kind of crushing down upon me at the same time, 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.560 and I started to question everything, maybe more so than 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.520 some other people, you know, using the tools of my discipline, 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.240 saying why is this so unfair? Why is this not 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.480 adding up for me? And I started looking at women's 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.160 time use and finding that as women were taking on 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.520 more at work, men weren't taking on more at home, 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.760 and so there was kind of like no place for 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.880 you know, there's no pressure release valve on everything that 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:16.640 we were kind of adding to our lives. We were 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.280 just trying to do more, and parenting had become much 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.960 more intensive from the time when I was a kid, when, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.960 like I joke, my bedtime routine was go to bed. 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.560 It was like there wasn't this like elaborate ritual of 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.800 every part of parenting, so you're expected to be there 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.720 for your kid more than ever. Working moms today spend 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.760 more time with our kids then stay at home moms 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.720 a generation ago. You're expected to be there more than ever. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.640 So working moms today spend more time with their kids 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.200 now than stay at home moms did in the seventies. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.560 Yes, wow, yeah. And so when you're feeling like it 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.360 doesn't add up and you're like, but wait, even if 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:55.800 you had a working mom, you're like, but my mom 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.360 was a working mom. She made it work. Am I 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:01.000 just a failure? No, Like what it all is has 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:05.600 changed and it's just misfailing and it's become really unsustainable. 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.960 So my questioning everything included my marriage and I ultimately 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.440 ended up getting divorced, moving to Philadelphia, eventually getting remarried 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:16.840 to a woman because by part of how I decided 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:17.960 I was going to make it all that up was 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.119 get those gender roles out of my life, of this 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.520 expectation that I was going to do more just because 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:23.679 I was the female partner. 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.359 And wait, Kurin, were you bisexual or lesbian before this 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.240 or did you marry a domestic partner? 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:37.199 So I I was identified as not I was not 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.200 queer because I think I sort of defaulted into heterosexuality 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.040 because we don't question enough things in our life, right, 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.400 I think I sort of had defaulted to be pterosexual. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.320 And like I said, I had crushes on boys, assumed 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.080 that I liked men, and then gradually, like over the 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.000 course of my marriage, I think the unfairness of the 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.600 gender roles actually started to impact my attraction. And so 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.560 when I had this like that people talk about, you know, 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.440 when you know your marriage is over, it's like when 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.879 you start really thinking about like life after marriage, you 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.520 start thinking about other people. Right, all of my crushes 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.920 were on women, Like I could not picture being attracted 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.399 to a man like it was just that it was 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.000 dead to me. So like I guess I was always 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:18.760 a little bit in the middle of the spectrum, but 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.560 kind of pushed more to one side by that experience. 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.159 So once I got separated, I only dated women. And yes, no, 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:26.960 my wife and I are very much in love have 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.280 a full relationship. But that's what If you were asking 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.560 if it's like every like you know, just like co 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.320 parents and friends. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:34.639 Well yeah, I didn't know if you were in a 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.080 romantic partnership or if you like based on the analysis 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.920 of your time, decided Okay, I'm gonna be in a 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:40.919 domestic partnership. 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.600 Yeah no, So I will say that, I mean was conveniently, 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.200 but it's actually attracted, right, because I think I've heard 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:49.720 a lot of women say like, oh my god, I 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.320 wish I could do that, which, let me just say, ladies, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.800 like at least go on a date with a woman 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:56.679 at some point in your life, like as part of 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.960 this like you know, idea of like upending the defaults. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.359 We fall into these defaults too much, and it's like, 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.840 why not, why not try that and see you know, 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.160 and I never did until after I got divorced. But yeah, 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.760 that was, albeit, I admit, an extreme solution and one 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:13.280 that's not available to everybody. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.679 Well, you know what's funny about that Current is a 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.439 friend of mine heard you speak in person at she 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:20.760 works at the Milinda. 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.800 Gates at Yeah. 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.160 Yes, And so she texted me after because she knew 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.080 we had met at the Gloria event and she was like, 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.080 Current showed us a bunch of charts and research that 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.919 she'd done and basically the economic impacts on a hetero 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.359 sexual relationship, a gay and lesbian relationship and she was like, 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:39.879 it made. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:41.040 Me think I should be with a woman. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.920 So the stats are actually quite convincing, I would say, 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.920 But I think what is so moving about the way 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.080 you write that first chapter is that there's so much 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.000 grief there, and there's so much what's the word burnout 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.480 that you feel when you're writing it. That's a very relatable. 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.679 But be what I think was so interesting is you 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.280 decided this wasn't a scheduling issue, because I think a 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.280