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Speaker 2: Guess what Will?

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Speaker 3: What's that? Mago?

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Speaker 4: I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast,

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Speaker 4: Part Time Genius, but even though we've done over two

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty episodes, we don't really talk about murders

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Speaker 4: or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati

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Speaker 4: of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy.

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Speaker 4: We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food?

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Speaker 4: And how do dollar stores make money? And then of

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Speaker 4: course can you game a dog show? So what you're

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Speaker 4: saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part Time

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Speaker 4: Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 5: You want.

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Speaker 6: It's me Katie Couric. You know if you've been following

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Speaker 6: me on social media, you know I love to cook,

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Speaker 6: or at least try, especially alongside some of my favorite

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Speaker 6: chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyke,

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Speaker 6: Alison Roman and Ininagarten. So I started a free newsletter

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Speaker 6: called good Taste to share recipes, tips and kitchen mustaves.

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Speaker 6: Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash good Taste.

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Speaker 6: That's k A t I E c o u r

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Speaker 6: ic dot com slash good Taste. I promise your taste

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Speaker 6: buds will be happy you did.

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Speaker 7: Hi.

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Speaker 8: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

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Speaker 8: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a

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Speaker 8: neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career exploring the

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Speaker 8: three pound universe.

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Speaker 3: In our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

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Speaker 8: Between your brain and your life, because the more we

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Speaker 8: know about what's running under the hood, that or we

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Speaker 8: can steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos, but Eagelman

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Speaker 8: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 8: your podcastsy Katie, are.

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Speaker 1: You a fan of Italian food.

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Speaker 2: Well, I live in Italy, so here we just call

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Speaker 2: it food.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, all right, Well what about Italian American food?

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Speaker 1: You know, the version made by Italian immigrants to America.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I like it. It's more meatballs and more garlic,

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Speaker 2: but that's still really good.

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Speaker 1: Well what about the opposite, what about American Italian food?

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Speaker 2: So is that cuisine made by American immigrants who are

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Speaker 2: in Italy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Basically you Well.

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Speaker 2: I mean I mostly just have coffee and toast, which

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Speaker 2: would be a really short cookbook.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you should try innovating. Have you ever tried putting

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Speaker 1: a meatball in your coffee?

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Speaker 2: I know I have not tried to do that, Dan, could.

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Speaker 1: Be a cultural revolution.

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Speaker 2: Well, it would indeed be revolting.

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Speaker 4: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

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Speaker 1: uc Ervine, and I don't like anything in my coffee,

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Speaker 1: definitely not meatballs.

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Speaker 6: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I am Katie. I host a podcast called Creature feature

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Speaker 2: on evolutionary biology, and I like a huge amount of

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Speaker 2: sugar in my coffee. So we could see how that

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Speaker 2: is with meatballs as well.

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Speaker 1: Well, that makes me wonder since you're a biologist, tell me,

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Speaker 1: who are the natural consumers of coffee? Like, who out

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Speaker 1: there in the animal world is eating coffee beans off

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Speaker 1: the tree.

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Speaker 2: That's the thing is that coffee caffeine in coffee plants

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Speaker 2: is to be slightly toxic to insects that want to

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Speaker 2: eat it. And it's the same story for spicy foods.

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Speaker 2: It's actually defense mechanism, and so the insects that will

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Speaker 2: try to eat these plants will not farewell. But when

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Speaker 2: we have it, it's actually delicious and good. Now, there

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Speaker 2: are palm civets who will eat types of coffee plants.

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Speaker 2: They eat the berries, and there's actually a coffee drink

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Speaker 2: made out of the beans collected from the palm civet

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Speaker 2: hoop and it's very expensive. Wow.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what blows my mind more there the

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Speaker 1: fact that we are sipping insect poison, or the fact

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Speaker 1: that that whole strategy is backfired on the coffee tree

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Speaker 1: because it attracts us, or how quickly a biologist will

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Speaker 1: turn the conversation towards poop.

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Speaker 2: The latter is the least surprising.

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Speaker 1: That is neat and where we overlap the darkest matters

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Speaker 1: in the universe. And welcome to the podcast. Daniel and

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Speaker 1: Jorge explain the universe the production of iHeartRadio, in which

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Speaker 1: we try to do just that. Explore everything that's out

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Speaker 1: there in the universe, ask our deepest, darkest questions about

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Speaker 1: who is sipping which bits of the universe and why

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Speaker 1: they exist in that way? What are the tiniest particles

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Speaker 1: that everything is made out of, What are the rules

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Speaker 1: by which they play? How do they come together to

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Speaker 1: make civets and cats and poops and coffee and biologists

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Speaker 1: who wonder about all those things combined? Is it possible

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Speaker 1: to understand and explain the universe? We're going to try.

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Speaker 2: That is the first thing I think of when I

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Speaker 2: think about civet, kat poop is the tiniest of particles

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Speaker 2: that make up that coffee. But yeah, I mean, I guess,

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Speaker 2: I guess when you can go down really really tiny,

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Speaker 2: and that makes things like poop less gross because now

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Speaker 2: you're just on the atomical level and these are just atoms.

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Speaker 2: They don't smell. Atoms don't smell bad.

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Speaker 1: I don't think, well, does it make poop less gross

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Speaker 1: to think that it's made of the same basic building

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Speaker 1: blocks as everything else, or does it make everything else

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Speaker 1: more gross to know that ice cream and lava and

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Speaker 1: kittens are made out of the same stuff as poop.

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Speaker 2: Interesting question, ice cream, lava, and.

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Speaker 1: Kittens, let's put a pin in that, But let's dive

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Speaker 1: deep into what the universe is made out of. One

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Speaker 1: of our deepest questions in physics, and a question that

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Speaker 1: humans have been asking basically since humans have been asking questions,

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Speaker 1: is how do things work at the smallest scale? Is

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Speaker 1: it possible to zoom down on what's around us and

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Speaker 1: explain things in simpler and simpler terms, Because you know,

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Speaker 1: you start out with a huge number of things out

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Speaker 1: there in the universe blueberries and cats, and ice cream

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Speaker 1: and coffee, and biologists and physicists and everything in between.

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Speaker 1: It's an incredible variety. But when you dig down a

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Speaker 1: little bit, you discuss, Oh, everything out there is made

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Speaker 1: out of about one hundred basic building blocks, the elements

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Speaker 1: of the periodic table. Combined in different ways, you can

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Speaker 1: make essentially everything. And even that set of one hundred

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Speaker 1: building blocks is made out of an even smaller set

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Speaker 1: of stuff. Right, Protons and neutrons and electrons make up

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Speaker 1: all of those atoms, which means that the same stuff

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Speaker 1: can be used to make lava or kittens, or ice

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Speaker 1: cream or poops, or biologists or stars. All that stuff

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Speaker 1: is made out of the same thing.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because I do know that one of the

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Speaker 2: things that unites kittens and lava and poop is that

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Speaker 2: it all obeys the laws of physics. If you throw

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Speaker 2: a kitten in some lava, you're going to have a

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Speaker 2: predictable result because of the laws of physics. Both the

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Speaker 2: kitten and the lava are constrained by the laws of physics.

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Speaker 2: But the thing that's interesting to me, and that hurts

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Speaker 2: my brain a little bit, is that when you look at,

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Speaker 2: say like a very tiny quantum particle, it does not

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Speaker 2: necessarily obey the same laws of physics as say a marble.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I think of like a marble bonking

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Speaker 2: into another marble. I can somewhat understand how that works.

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Speaker 2: But then you go down small enough and it's not

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Speaker 2: just tiny atomic marbles bonking into each other. Weird stuff

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Speaker 2: happens that blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: It is incredible that the laws of physics seem to

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Speaker 1: be different at different scales, like at different distances or

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Speaker 1: different energies. It seems like different rules apply, like to

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Speaker 1: baseballs and to electrons. The rules are fundamentally different. There

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Speaker 1: are different kinds of stuff and the rules that apply

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Speaker 1: to them are different, and that does feel weird, and

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Speaker 1: it's one of the most incredible things about the universe.

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Speaker 1: But a helpful way to think about it is in

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Speaker 1: terms of phases. Like think about water. Water has a

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Speaker 1: liquid phase and a solid phase and a gas phase.

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Speaker 1: Right in the end, we think it's all made out

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Speaker 1: of the same basic stuff water molecules, but the act

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Speaker 1: differently under different circumstances. And you wouldn't expect the laws

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Speaker 1: of an ideal gas to describe what happens when water crystallizes,

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Speaker 1: or fluid dynamics to explain how a gas would expand

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Speaker 1: different rules apply in different scenarios, different phases, And so

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Speaker 1: we imagine that the universe is organized the same way

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Speaker 1: you can think of You can think of it as

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Speaker 1: sort of different phases where different rules apply. What we

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Speaker 1: don't know is if there is an underlying theory behind

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Speaker 1: all of it, the sort of physics version of the

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Speaker 1: water molecule, the tiniest little bits who's dancing and tuing

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Speaker 1: and frowing and interacting is somehow making all this other

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Speaker 1: stuff emerge, even the quantum particles, even the baseballs, even

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Speaker 1: the galaxies. Is there something at the lowest level which

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Speaker 1: is determining everything from which all of our experience emerges.

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Speaker 2: So this is an interesting and confusing question to me,

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Speaker 2: because from my understanding, if we're all in the same universe,

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Speaker 2: we would all regardless of whether we're a human or

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Speaker 2: a quark or a kitten, we'd have to play by

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Speaker 2: the same rules. But if the rules are different somehow, right,

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Speaker 2: like for a quark versus a kitten in terms of physics,

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Speaker 2: even though the kitten is also made out of quarks

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Speaker 2: or atoms molecules, it's hard for me to wrap my

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Speaker 2: head around there not being a unifying set of rules

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Speaker 2: that applies to everything, given that not only do we

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Speaker 2: live in the same universe, but we're made out of

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Speaker 2: all the same stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question, and a basic assumption about

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Speaker 1: a lot of physics is that that's possible that if

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Speaker 1: you zoom down to the smallest scale, you can find

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Speaker 1: the most basic set of rules, and that then you

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Speaker 1: could somehow zoom back out with the fundamental theory of

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Speaker 1: the universe in hand, you could explain everything it might

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Speaker 1: require you to calculate like how ten to the twenty

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Speaker 1: nine particles come together to make a baseball. But the

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Speaker 1: idea is, in principle, it's all determined by what's happen

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Speaker 1: happening at the smaller scale that when you zoom out,

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Speaker 1: that's just what those laws look like. And it might

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Speaker 1: be the case, right It might be that even though

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Speaker 1: we have trouble explaining how a zillion water droplets interacting

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Speaker 1: in the atmosphere make a hurricane, we can't even do

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Speaker 1: it with our fastest supercomputers. We think that probably it

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Speaker 1: is determined by that, But that's actually a philosophical assumption,

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Speaker 1: and some philosophers of science disagree with that. It's called

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Speaker 1: strong emergence, and some point to lots of things that

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Speaker 1: we can't explain using underlying details. A great example is

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Speaker 1: like why you are here your consciousness? We have completely

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Speaker 1: failed so far to explain the experience of human consciousness

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Speaker 1: in terms of like the zapping of the little neurons

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Speaker 1: inside of our brains. It might be that somehow all

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Speaker 1: that stuff comes together to explain why you are experiencing

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Speaker 1: this podcast right now. But it might also be that

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Speaker 1: there are just different rules at different levels of the

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Speaker 1: universe that aren't actually determined by the lower levels. That

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Speaker 1: that's somehow there are independent layers of the universe and

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Speaker 1: different rules apply with each one. It's a weird philosophy

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Speaker 1: of the universe, but it might also be our universe that's.

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Speaker 2: Very hard for my conscious brain to wrap itself around.

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Speaker 2: It is very interesting, this philosophical question of consciousness because

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Speaker 2: if we apply sort of the rules of like, well,

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Speaker 2: a brain works right because you have a communication between

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Speaker 2: many parts, you have neurons that are all communicating with

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Speaker 2: each other and forming these networks. Well, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of things that do that, from computers to ant colonies,

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Speaker 2: and so the question is, well, are those things conscious

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Speaker 2: as well? And we can't really quantify that, and we

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Speaker 2: can't know whether even though it seems like there's this

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Speaker 2: underlying rule of you know, you require these sort of

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Speaker 2: individual units that are all communicating together and forming patterns,

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Speaker 2: and that's what you need for consciousness. If you see

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Speaker 2: that repeated in other systems, whether that actually applies to say,

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Speaker 2: can you recreate a consciousness with an electronic version of

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Speaker 2: neurons or is something like a very complex ant colony

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Speaker 2: with thousands of ants? Does that recreate consciousness. So I

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Speaker 2: guess in a way I could see how there could

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Speaker 2: be different rules applying to different layers, but it's just

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Speaker 2: so strange and so like. Currently, when we look at

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Speaker 2: like quantum mechanics, it does not do a good job

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Speaker 2: of explaining physics on a larger scale.

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Speaker 1: Mostly we cannot connect the layers that we have. Even

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Speaker 1: though that's basically the motivation for the project to understand

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Speaker 1: everything at the smallest scale and use that to explain

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Speaker 1: everything else that's bigger, we have very rarely succeeded in

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Speaker 1: using a zoomed in microscopic approach to explain anything bigger.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: One famous success story is ideal gases. Is say, okay,

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Speaker 1: we have this picture of atoms moving in a gas

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Speaker 1: as tiny little balls. Can we zoom out and think

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Speaker 1: about what happens to ten to the twenty nine balls,

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Speaker 1: and can we write equations that tell mathematical stories about

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Speaker 1: things that emerge from ten to the twenty nine tiny

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Speaker 1: little gas molecules like pressure and temperature and volume, and

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Speaker 1: we can you can actually derive, like the ideal gas

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Speaker 1: law from statistical mechanics explanations about the velocities of those

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Speaker 1: tiny little particles. That's a famous example because it's one

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Speaker 1: of the rare successes. Mostly we have failed because the

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Speaker 1: universe is kind of chaotic. It's really sensitive often to

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Speaker 1: these tiny little details. What happens to this quantum particle

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Speaker 1: affects another quantum particle, which affects another quantum particle. We

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Speaker 1: don't understand how to do that calculation. Most of the time,

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Speaker 1: we don't have the computing power, and we can't avoid

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Speaker 1: this chaos problem. So mostly we don't know how to

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Speaker 1: do that. It might be that it is determined and

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Speaker 1: it's possible to do those calculations, it's just sort of

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Speaker 1: beyond our ability right now. Or it might be that

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Speaker 1: it's just not that different rules apply in different regimes,

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Speaker 1: as weird as that is.

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Speaker 2: So, I guess I'm not so familiar with quantum mechanics

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Speaker 2: and general relativity. Can we kind of just hammer down,

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Speaker 2: like what are those two things? How Like what do

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Speaker 2: they apply to and what don't they apply to?

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Speaker 1: So at the forefront of our understanding of the most

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Speaker 1: microscopic picture of how the universe works, we have two

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Speaker 1: basic theories. We have quantum mechanics, which tells us about

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Speaker 1: really tiny stuff, and general relativity, which tells us about

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Speaker 1: really big heavy stuff, basically quantum mechanics for particles and

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Speaker 1: general relativity for gravity. One of the biggest frustrations in

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Speaker 1: physics in the last one hundred years has been our

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Speaker 1: inability to bring them together into a single story, to

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Speaker 1: weave them into a unified picture of how the universe works.

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Speaker 1: You know, this whole project of like, let's explain everything

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Speaker 1: from the tiniest particles and then zoom out. Well, we

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Speaker 1: haven't even succeeded in explaining the tiniest particles yet, but

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Speaker 1: there's a vigorous program of people working on this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And in today's episode, we're going to dig into one

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Speaker 1: of the most recent and weirdest ideas about how to

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Speaker 1: bring quantum mechanics and relativity together. So on today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be answering the question, what is quantum relativity?

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, quantum relativity. So it's like quantum mechanics and general

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Speaker 2: relativity had a baby.

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Speaker 1: It also sounds like a buzzword name for a startup

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Speaker 1: where you're like, I don't even really know what it

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Speaker 1: they do, but it sounds pretty good. So before we

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Speaker 1: dig into the details of this, I checked in with

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Speaker 1: our listeners to see if they had any idea about

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Speaker 1: the theory of quantum relativity, if they had heard of

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Speaker 1: this before, if they had thoughts about it. Thanks very

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Speaker 1: much to everybody who participates in this audience feedback segment

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Speaker 1: of the podcast. We really love hearing your voice and

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Speaker 1: hearing your thoughts on the question.

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Speaker 3: Of the day.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to participate, please don't be shy.

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Speaker 1: Just write to me to Questions at Danielandjorge dot com

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Speaker 1: and I'll hook you up. So before you hear these answers,

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Speaker 1: think to yourself, have you heard of quantum relativity? What

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Speaker 1: do you think that might mean. Here's what some listeners

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Speaker 1: had to say.

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Speaker 9: Quantum relativity. I'm guessing that is the theory that brings

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Speaker 9: quantum mechanics and general relativity together. So something that the theory

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Speaker 9: that figures out how you work gravity and quantum mechanics together.

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Speaker 9: Since gravity, we're not quite sure how that works on

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Speaker 9: the smallest scales.

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Speaker 1: That is really really tiny relativity.

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Speaker 5: To me, that sounds like a parallel to general relativity.

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Speaker 5: So I bet that it has to do with how

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Speaker 5: particles interact with each other when in proximity to each other.

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Speaker 5: On a quantum scale.

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Speaker 2: I love the answer really tiny relativity because it makes

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Speaker 2: me think of some ants or some mites or tartar

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Speaker 2: grades in the lab coats drawing on tiny chalkboards.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Also, quantum just sometimes means like fancy or st nazi,

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Speaker 1: or we're going to charge you an extra ten bucks

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Speaker 1: for it, So like expensive relativity.

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Speaker 2: This is a quantum salad for twelve dollars.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to upgrade my salad, actually do a quantum salad.

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Speaker 1: Or I ordered quantum on my salad and I didn't

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Speaker 1: get enough.

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Speaker 2: Could mean anythings, a.

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Speaker 1: Complaint anything, Well, we're going to see today. The quantum

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Speaker 1: relativity is the name of a new effort to unify

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics and general relativity, and they really do give

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Speaker 1: it that name for a reason. But before that's going

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Speaker 1: to make any sense to us, we really have to

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Speaker 1: understand the basics of like what is quantum mechanics in

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Speaker 1: general relativity, why do we want to unify them, and

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Speaker 1: why is it so hard?

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Speaker 2: Right? Yes, because like you were kind of saying earlier,

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Speaker 2: general relativity is for big stuff. Quantum mechanics is for

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Speaker 2: tiny stuff. But it's got to be a little more

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Speaker 2: detailed than that I would imagine.

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Speaker 1: No, that's basically it take quantum mechanics, generativity like all

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Speaker 1: done in fifteen minutes. But listeners of the podcast will

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Speaker 1: remember that general relativity basically describes space and time. Special

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Speaker 1: relativity is a theory that tells us about how light

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Speaker 1: moves and how observers always see light moving at the

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Speaker 1: same speed, and general relativity is what explains gravity. Remember

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Speaker 1: Newton had the idea that gravity was a force that

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Speaker 1: things with mass pulled on each other, and that's why

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Speaker 1: the Earth goes around the Sun and you feel like

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Speaker 1: you're falling towards the Earth because he described gravity as

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Speaker 1: this force. But Einstein tells us that gravity is not

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Speaker 1: a force. Gravity is not capable of accelerating anything, and

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Speaker 1: that things are actually moving according to the invisible curvature

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Speaker 1: of space and time.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing that is so hard for me

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Speaker 2: to really visualize or hold in my head because every

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Speaker 2: kind of analogy I try to make is based in physics,

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Speaker 2: like a ball rolling down a hill or something, or

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Speaker 2: you know, I think of the fact of space being

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Speaker 2: sort of pulled in a certain direction, and it's like

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Speaker 2: that's still physics. In the sense of like, you know,

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Speaker 2: a fabric being pulled and something falling into it, Whereas

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Speaker 2: like the idea of gravity being sort of the shape

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Speaker 2: of the universe in a way that like makes sense

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Speaker 2: in my head is very hard to grasp. I understand

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Speaker 2: it in a certain way, but to visualize it is

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Speaker 2: so difficult.

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Speaker 1: It is very tricky because it changes your entire concept

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Speaker 1: of what space is. Right. We used to think of

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Speaker 1: space as like nothingness and stuff is there and it

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Speaker 1: can move through space. But it turns out that there

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Speaker 1: is something to space, like between two points, there's information

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Speaker 1: information about how that space is curved or bent, and

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Speaker 1: that affects how stuff moves through that space. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of examples out there in popular science literature.

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Speaker 1: I think most of us are very confusing. You know,

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Speaker 1: the idea of like a rubber sheet and you have

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Speaker 1: a ball on the sheet, and the rubber sheet is

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Speaker 1: bent and that makes the curve. That's very confusing because

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Speaker 1: you still have to have gravity in that example in

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Speaker 1: the vertical direction. You give this like external third dimension

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Speaker 1: of gravity in your two D world. I think that's

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Speaker 1: very very misleading. I prefer to think about it in

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Speaker 1: three D and remember that this curvature is intrinsic. It's

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Speaker 1: not external. It's not like there's somebody else out there

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Speaker 1: with a ruler in real space who's telling us our

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Speaker 1: space is bent relative to their space. The curvature is intrinsic.

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Speaker 1: There's no external ruler. It just means that the relative

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Speaker 1: distances between two points change, which means like the shortest

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Speaker 1: path from A to B might not be a straight

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Speaker 1: line that you would draw if you ignore the curvature.

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Speaker 1: Once you know what the curvature is, there might be

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Speaker 1: a shorter path between A and B, and that's the

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Speaker 1: path that light will take. Light always takes the shortest

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Speaker 1: path between two points.

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Speaker 2: So if I'm standing on my bed and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to jump off the bed, as I do every morning,

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Speaker 2: so I am subject to the gravity of Earth, and

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Speaker 2: it's not so much that it's only me down, but

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Speaker 2: just that I am traveling along the shortest path from

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Speaker 2: point A, which is my bed, to point B, which

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Speaker 2: is the other point of space. But it's more or

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Speaker 2: less just interrupted by the floor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great example. Let's think about it first

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Speaker 1: from the Newtonian point of view, and then let's reboot

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Speaker 1: and think about it from an Einsteinian point of view.

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Speaker 1: So Newton would say, you're standing on your bed. There's

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Speaker 1: the force of gravity pulling down on you from the Earth,

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Speaker 1: and there's the force of your bed pushing up, and

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Speaker 1: those two things are balanced, so you're not going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Then you jump off your bed. No longer is the

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Speaker 1: bed pushing you up, and so now you're falling because

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Speaker 1: it's just the force of gravity, and that's accelerating you

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Speaker 1: down towards the center of the Earth. That's the way

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Speaker 1: people mostly learn about gravity. That's how Newton described it.

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Speaker 1: That's where we start. Einstein says something different. Einstein says, well,

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Speaker 1: when you're standing on your bed, you actually are being accelerated.

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Speaker 1: There's only one force there. There's the force of your bed.

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Speaker 1: What's it pushing you against. It's pushing you against your

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Speaker 1: natural motion, which is to fall all towards the center

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Speaker 1: of the earth. So Newton says, you're accelerating when after

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Speaker 1: you jump off the bed and you're falling towards the center.

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Speaker 1: Einstein says, no, you were accelerating when you were on

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Speaker 1: your bed. It's when you jump off your bed that

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Speaker 1: you're now following the natural curvature of space. You're no

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Speaker 1: longer accelerating. The only force in this scenario is the

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Speaker 1: force of the bed on you, and that's keeping you

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Speaker 1: from naturally moving towards the center of the Earth. When

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Speaker 1: you're standing on the bed. Once you jump off, you're

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Speaker 1: the one in free fall. And you can actually measure

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Speaker 1: this because you can take an accelerometer something which measures

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Speaker 1: your acceleration. I mean, the scale is basically a gravitometer,

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Speaker 1: and you can measure when are you feeling acceleration. If

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Speaker 1: you jump off your bed and you're holding a scale

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Speaker 1: and you put it under your feet, what are you

440
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 1: going to weigh. You're going to weigh nothing because it's

441
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: no force between you and the scale. But if the

442
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 1: scale's on your bed and you're standing on it, then

443
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: you're going to see your weight. And that's because that's

444
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: where you're accelerating. It's when you're on your bed.

445
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. Yeah, I can totally visualize that. Also,

446
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: I knew that when I sleep in, I wasn't lazy

447
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: because I've been accelerating the whole time.

448
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: So this is Einstein's picture of gravity, and it's massively successful.

449
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 5: Right.

450
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: It describes the motion of everything in the universe, the

451
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: expansion of the universe, incredibly high precision black holes oscillating

452
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: around each other, neutron stars getting gobbled by black holes,

453
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: gravitational waves. It's been tested in and out and up

454
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: the wazoo for decades and decades, and it's this beautiful

455
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: geometric picture of the universe that tells us gravity is

456
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: not a force. It's just the way things are flowing

457
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: through the geometry of space and time. And the things

458
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: to take away from this discussion are that it's one

459
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: deterministic right. It says that things move in a certain

460
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: way because of geometry. It's no randomness, there's no probability.

461
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: It's not like when you jump off your bed you

462
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: have a chance of landing here or there. It's determined

463
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: by exactly where you are in the shape of space.

464
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: And the other is that it mostly affects really really

465
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: big stuff because gravity is super weak. Whether it's a

466
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: force or the curvature of space time, it takes a

467
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: lot of mass to have any effect. You know, you

468
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: can like overcome all the gravity of the Earth or

469
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: the curvature of space and time caused by the Earth

470
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: using a simple kitchen magnet right, or your legs can

471
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: overcome it. You can leap off the surface of the Earth,

472
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: which means it applies mostly to really massive objects. So

473
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: it's deterministic and it applies to really massive stuff. That's

474
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: the important things to remember when we're going to talk

475
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: about trying to integrate it with quantum.

476
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: Mechanics, because that's in the opposite direction where it is

477
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: extremely extremely tiny stuff like as a human being. Gravity

478
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 2: is something where it's hard to you know, really visualize

479
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: like the scope of say like the size of the

480
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: Sun or this even the size of the planet. Sure

481
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: you can go on a plane and kind of see

482
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: part of it, but it's it's still hard to visualize

483
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: how big these things are, how massive it is, and

484
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: then similarly, going into quantum mechanics visualizing how tiny these

485
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: things can be. So there really as opposite as you

486
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: can get in terms of size and scope.

487
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: They are like the ying and ying of physics. But

488
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: we hope they click together to make one holistic picture.

489
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: But let's dig into how quant mechanics explains the tiniest

490
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: stuff in the universe. But first let's take a quick break.

491
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to try to start thinking small.

492
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493
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516
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541
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Speaker 3: Hi.

542
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 8: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

543
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 8: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a

544
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 8: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

545
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 8: three pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a

546
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Speaker 8: whole new series of episodes this season to understand why

547
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Speaker 8: and how our lives look the way they do. Why

548
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Speaker 8: does your memory drift so much? Why is it so

549
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 8: hard to keep a secret, When should you not trust

550
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 8: your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks?

551
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 8: And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these

552
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 8: questions and hundreds more because the more we know about

553
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 8: what's running under the hood, the better we can steer

554
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Speaker 8: our lives.

555
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

556
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Speaker 8: Between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.

557
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Speaker 8: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app,

558
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559
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: All right, I'm trying to think inside a very tiny

560
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: box and hopefully that will help me.

561
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: As you mentioned already, the rules seemed to be different

562
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: for things like baseball and planets than things like electrons

563
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: and photons and tiny little particles, which is really the

564
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: source of one of the biggest mysteries in modern physics,

565
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: how that all works and whether we can bring it together.

566
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: Right, Because I think I had some concept before ever

567
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: coming on this show, which is that with the small stuff,

568
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: the really tiny quantum level stuff, there was some sort

569
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: of like average you could take of its behavior, and

570
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: then that would be well integrated into say, other types

571
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 2: of physics like general relativity, where it's like, well, you know,

572
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: you just scale up averages of the small stuff's activity

573
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: and then that would fit in some perfect formula and

574
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: represent general relativity. But turns out it's not so simple.

575
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 4: No.

576
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: It turns out the rules of these two concepts are

577
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: fundamentally different and tell really different stories about the nature

578
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: of the universe we live in. About one hundred years ago,

579
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: people did experiments which showed us that when you zoom

580
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: in to the tiniest level, the rules really do seem

581
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: to be different. Amazingly, it was Einstein who played a

582
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: role in both of these revolutions. He of course came

583
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: up with relativity, but he also had the idea of

584
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: how to interpret the photoelectric effect, which kicked off the

585
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: entire quantum revolution as well, So that dude was pretty central.

586
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: What's the photo reflective effect?

587
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: This is the experiment where you shine bright light at

588
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: a piece of metal and you see a bunch of

589
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: electrons boil off. And the idea is, okay, the electrons

590
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: are absorbing the light, they're getting energy, they're boiling off.

591
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: The weird thing about the experiment was as you turn

592
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: up the brightness of the light, like the intensity of

593
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: the light, you expected to get electrons with more energy

594
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: because you're shining brighter light at it. But instead what

595
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: you got were more electrons. And this really puzzled people.

596
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: They're like, why can't the electrons get more energy. And

597
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: the answer in the end is that light is made

598
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: of these tiny little packets. It's not a continuous beam,

599
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: it's a bude of little packets of energy, and each

600
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: electron can basically only absorb one. It's like one interaction

601
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: between a photon and n electron. So when you turn

602
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: up the brightness of the beam, which you get are

603
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: more electrons absorbing photons, not one electron absorbing more photons.

604
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: And so that was the clue that told people, oh, look,

605
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: maybe light is made of these little packets, and that

606
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: kicked off the whole quantum revolution that showed us that

607
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: everything out there is actually made of these little discrete

608
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: bits that follow very different rules.

609
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: It's like these electrons are flying ryanair and they can

610
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: only have one packet per electron.

611
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 10: That's right.

612
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: Otherwise you get some quantum fees for extra carryons.

613
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: Is that a very small fee or a very big fee?

614
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: Small fees that add up to a lot because of

615
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: interference with your pocketbook?

616
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 9: I think?

617
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: Ain't that how it is?

618
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: Anybody out there who works for the airlines, do not

619
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: take this as a creative idea for how to add fees. Okay,

620
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to see quantum fees on my quantum fees.

621
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: That's going to be the next thing.

622
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: And what emerged for the next twenty or thirty years

623
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: of studying experiments and shining lights on things and looking

624
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: inside the atom, or a new set of rules for

625
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: how tiny stuff worked. This tiny stuff didn't follow the

626
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: rules of planets and baseballs. You couldn't make a picture

627
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: of the atom that literally had electrons orbiting the center

628
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: of the atom. That just didn't work. The physics of

629
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: it didn't make sense. Those electrons in an orbit would

630
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: radiate away all their energy and collapse into the nucleus

631
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: because anything that's moving in a circle is accelerating, and

632
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: things that accelerate have to give off radiation in order

633
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: to keep bending. But we don't see electrons collapsing into

634
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: the center of the atom and tend to the negative

635
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: thirteen seconds. I told us that the rules were fundamentally different,

636
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: and we came up with a completely new kind of mathematics,

637
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics Schrodinger's equation that describe the rules of the

638
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: quantum realm which were totally different from the rules of

639
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: baseballs and electrons. Baseballs move through space, they have a path,

640
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: like they're here and then they are there, and so

641
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: you know they went from here to there. They have

642
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: a location at every moment, and you can string those

643
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: locations together to make a smooth and continuous path. Just

644
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: sort of makes sense to you that everything has to

645
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: be somewhere at all times. But electrons don't follow those rules.

646
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: That's an intuition you developed from your experience of baseballs

647
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: and rocks and other kinds of stuff. Electrons can be

648
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: here and then they can be there, and they don't

649
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: have to go from here to there. They don't always

650
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: have to have a determined location. They can exist in

651
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: probabilistic form where they can say, well, I might be

652
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: here and I might be there. It's not determined much

653
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: more than just being not known. It's actually not determined

654
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: by the uni.

655
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: Right, because it's hard to understand this sometimes where you

656
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: think in these kinds of thought experiments of like an

657
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,399
Speaker 2: electron not knowing sort of the location of electron or

658
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: the spin of something. It's like I think sometimes I

659
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 2: have this concept of like, well, this is just sort

660
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: of some kind of weird math. It's not actually describing

661
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: what's actually happening. But I would assume there's like evidence

662
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 2: that is what's actually happening, that this is not these

663
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: positions are not have experimentally been shown to not be

664
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: like determined by the universe.

665
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a whole really fascinating set of experiments that

666
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: explore this question, like is it just something we don't

667
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: know or is it really undetermined by the universe? Is

668
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: there some like extra information the electron is carrying that

669
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: we're just not aware of that actually tells where the

670
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: universe is, like keeping track of where it really is,

671
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: and we just don't know. And it's a set of

672
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: experiments proposed by John Bell to probe a theory called

673
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: bell inequalities, And we have a whole set of podcasts

674
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: about those Whether quantum mechanics really is random or not.

675
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: And the upshot is that it seems like it really

676
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: is random. There are some loopholes there, how you might

677
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: have like some sort of like non local pilot wave

678
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: that's controlling the whole universe. But the most mainstream interpretation

679
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: is that it really is random. There really is some

680
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: non determinism to the universe that you could do the

681
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: same experiment twice exactly the same setup and get different

682
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: answers like you're shoot an electron into an experiment with

683
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: exactly the same conditions twice and it'll end up going

684
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 1: left once and it'll end up going right another time.

685
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: That there's like a die being thrown by the universe

686
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: to determine where an electron goes. It's crazy, it's bonkers,

687
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: but that's the universe we live in, So.

688
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: It'd be like if you like, you know, there's the

689
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: classic thing that even babies. This is so interesting about

690
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: human cognition is that babies have a sort of baseline

691
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: understanding of physics. It seems like if they see a

692
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: little marble hit a big marble, they don't expect the

693
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: big marble to go flying off. And if you show

694
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: them that, they look they kind of stare at it

695
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: because it's surprising to them. But you know, because we

696
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: kind of have this this innate understanding that if a

697
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: little thing hits a big thing, the big thing isn't

698
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: going to go shooting off, whereas if the big thing

699
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: hits the little thing, it's going to go shooting off.

700
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: And like, if we hit things at a certain angle,

701
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: it's gonna you know, go at a certain direction, just

702
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: like I guess that's how people can be good at pool.

703
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 2: Not me, but other people. And so it would be

704
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: shocking though, if you're if you're good at pool and

705
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: you shoot something at a certain angle and it's just

706
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: completely random about of whether it goes left or right,

707
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: or forward or backwards, or up or down.

708
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: It is a really weird way to think about the universe.

709
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: I was recently trying to explain this stuff to my

710
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: sixteen year old who's taking chemistry and was learning about

711
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: the atomic structure and all this stuff and photons and probabilities,

712
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 1: and it was pretty bewildering, but it was a fun

713
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: experience of trying to download into his mind this new

714
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: way of thinking about the universe. But it really is

715
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: counterintuitive because you don't ever experience it. And that's one

716
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: of the big mysteries of quantum mechanics, is why not.

717
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: Because when we interact with quantum stuff, it tends to collapse.

718
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: It says, oh, I have a bunch of possibilities, but

719
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: I'm just going to pick one now. When a photon

720
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: hits your eyeball, it decides, oh, I'm here or I'm there.

721
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: When an electron hits the screen, the universe decides for

722
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 1: some reason, the universe has this distinction between tiny little

723
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: stuff that can exist with uncertainty and bigger stuff which can't.

724
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: People sometimes describe this as acting like a particle or

725
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: acting like a wave. Really, the distinction is between classical

726
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: physics like general relativity that's talking about stuff having specific locations,

727
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: and quantum physics, where stuff can still have uncertainty.

728
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: So quantum physics would be the particle and general relativity

729
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 2: would be the wave or vice versa.

730
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: So quantum physics is about tiny little stuff, but it's

731
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: the wave like behavior of that stuff that's really weird

732
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: because the wave appears in the shorting earthqua and people

733
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: tend to think about particles as having like a definite location,

734
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: like you've seen this particle on the screen. So general

735
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: relativity in classical physics more broadly thinks about stuff as

736
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: having definitive locations. It is here, it is there, it

737
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: was here, And quantum mechanics says that there can be uncertainty.

738
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: So quantum is the more wavy stuff, and in this case,

739
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: the classical theory is more like definitive locations, which people

740
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: sometimes describe as acting like a particle.

741
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: So quantum mechanics is kind of whibbly wobbly.

742
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. So these are two very different

743
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: pictures of the world, right, things moving along classical paths

744
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: where they always have a definitive location at every time,

745
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: or things being wibbly wobbling, being undetermined. And you might think, well,

746
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: it should be pretty easy to figure out which is right.

747
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: Can't we do experiments to tell us which one is

748
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: predicting things correctly? Right, Often you have two theories, you

749
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: just do an experiment, you say, well, which one is right?

750
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: And the problem is that it's so hard to do

751
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: an experiment where both of them have something to say.

752
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: Most of the universe is divided up into stuff where

753
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: general relativity is important and quantum mechanics can be ignored,

754
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: like the motion of planets, or stuff where quantum mechanics

755
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: is important and general relativity can be ignored, like two

756
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: electrons bouncing off of each other.

757
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: Right, Like you could do a physics experiment on a baseball,

758
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: But then to do a physics experiment and a quantum

759
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: level experiment on the baseball's electrons at the same time

760
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: in a way that makes sense seems very difficult.

761
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: Exactly when you do an experiment with baseballs, you can

762
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: pretty much ignore the fact that it's made from ten

763
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: to twenty nine tiny buzzing particles, and you can just

764
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: use Newton's laws F equals ma to describe its path

765
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: very very accurately. That's because the quantum effects tend to

766
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: average out. For reason this again, we don't really know

767
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: how that works or why that works, but it does.

768
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: So quantum effects tend to disappear when you zoom out

769
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: far enough. On the other hand, when you zoom in

770
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: far enough, gravity is so weak that it becomes irrelevant.

771
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: Like we do collisions between protons all the time at

772
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: the Large Hadron Collider, but we always ignore their gravity,

773
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: Like there is a gravitational attraction we think between the protons,

774
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: but protons have such tiny masses that we can essentially

775
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: ignore their gravity when we do those calculations.

776
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: I mean that makes sense because even though technically, even

777
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 2: as people, we have gravity, it's not like we can

778
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: suck things into ourselves. I know that's not how gravity works,

779
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: but still we are not generating enough of a gravitational

780
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: effect that things, you know, fall into our bodies. And

781
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: so what chance does a proton have exactly?

782
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: You can't blame gravity for the reason you ate that

783
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: pint of ice cream. It didn't just like fall into

784
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: your body.

785
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 2: That was my alibi.

786
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: But that's exactly right. We could hardly even measure the

787
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: gravity between things that are like a kilogram. The smallest

788
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: thing we've ever measured gravity for is just about a kilogram,

789
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: and protons are a tiny, tiny action of that, where

790
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: like thirty orders of magnitude away from being able to

791
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: measure the gravity of a proton, and more than that,

792
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: we don't even understand what the gravity of a proton

793
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: would look like. You know, say you have a particle

794
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: with uncertainty to it. Maybe it's here, maybe it's there,

795
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: maybe it's in this third location you don't know. The

796
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: universe says, that's cool. The particle can be uncertain, all right,

797
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: But then what is the gravity of an uncertain particle.

798
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: Does it have a little bit of curvature over here

799
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: because it might be over there, and a little bit

800
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: of curvature over there because it might be over there.

801
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: Is the curvature of space itself uncertain? We don't know

802
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: how to unify these two ideas, the quantum mechanics and

803
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: of gravity. Nobody really knows how that can be done.

804
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: That's so interesting and uncomfortable from a sort of biology

805
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: perspective because when you look at biology, big stuff is

806
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: made out of small stuff, and so that tracks. But

807
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: when you look at biological processes, like you look at

808
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: a cell, and it's interesting because of course, on a

809
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: certain level, each cell's activity does not necessarily explain everything

810
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 2: about a human being or a cat or a dog

811
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: their behavior. But you can generally track how the small

812
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: stuff creates the big stuff, and there's generally some like

813
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: the rules that govern the small stuff, these biological processes

814
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 2: that govern the small stuff. You can track how that

815
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: is impacting the big stuff. Like you chug a bunch

816
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 2: of soy sauce, and those salt ions are you know,

817
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: messing up your ion channels in your brain, and then

818
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: that's why you're in a coma. So it's you know,

819
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: it's very uncomfortable this idea that you couldn't track, like, okay,

820
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 2: so this proton is acting in a certain way, and

821
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 2: then we can scale up to you know, an item

822
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 2: like a watermelon, because it has a bunch of protons

823
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: in it, we know how that the behavior of those

824
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 2: protons would somehow affect the behavior of the water melon exactly.

825
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: And we'd love to do an experiment where we could

826
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: study that right, where we could take something where quantum

827
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: mechanics was relevant and also gravity was relevant, Like if

828
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: we could take enough protons and squeeze them together and

829
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: keep them in a small enough space so there's still

830
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: being quantum mechanical, but we had enough protons where we

831
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: could also measure its gravity. That way we could understand,

832
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: like how the small stuff is affecting the big stuff.

833
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: So in order to keep the quantum mechanical effects relevant,

834
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: you got to keep it like really really small. And

835
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: so what happens when you try to do that, when

836
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: you add enough stuff together so that it stays quantum

837
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: mechanical and gravity starts to get relevant, You get a

838
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: black hole. That's what a black hole is is a

839
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: huge amount of mass in a tiny little space. And

840
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: so on one hand, that's exciting, Wow, the answer is

841
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: inside a black hole. On the other hand, all that's

842
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: really frustrating. The answer is, hi, inside a black hole,

843
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: we can't see it. We think that probably inside a

844
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: black hole is evidence that would point us in the

845
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: direction of how to bring these two theories together, how

846
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: to explain what happens when you have a bunch of

847
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: quantum stuff that has enough gravity that you can't ignore

848
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: it anymore.

849
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: It feels like a sick joke, right to put all

850
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: the answers inside a thing that we can't see inside.

851
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: And if we tried to get someone in there, it

852
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: would destroy.

853
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: Them exactly, And they might actually survive going inside the

854
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: black hole and seeing the answer, But then they could

855
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: never tell us, so they couldn't even come collect their

856
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: Nobel prize. We'd have to send in the Nobel Prize

857
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: after them, assuming that they'd figured it out.

858
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: Like I feel like, if someone dives into a black hole,

859
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 2: they just deserve a Nobel Prize, whether they discover anything

860
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: or not. But we can study black holes, we just

861
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: can't like see inside them. So is there any way

862
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 2: to study a black hole such that it gives Is

863
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: this any clues about this?

864
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: Well, there is one possible crack in the veneer of

865
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: black holes, which is their hawking radiation. Black holes are

866
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: not totally black. They do emit some radiation. It's even

867
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: talking to the calculation a few decades ago, and he

868
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: didn't have a theory for what is the gravity of

869
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: particles but he did some sort of like clever handwavey approximations,

870
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: and he showed that if you have a quantum field

871
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: near something with an event horizon, then there has to

872
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: be radiation leaving the event horizon. So now we interpret

873
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: this as like the black hole is evaporating, it's like

874
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,399
Speaker 1: giving up some of its energy. The idea is that

875
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: maybe in that radiation, maybe as particles are being generated

876
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: by the event horizon, there might be clues as to

877
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: what's inside the black hole. It's sort of very speculative,

878
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: cutting edge research, but it's possible that if we did

879
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 1: see hawking radiation, we could maybe infer from it something

880
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: about what's inside the black hole. But hawking radiation would

881
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: be very very faint, and black holes are very very

882
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: far away and hidden by all sorts of other very

883
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: noisy stuff like hot gases emitting all sorts of radiation.

884
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: So we've never seen hawking radiation, and frankly, we don't

885
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: seem very likely to anytime in the near future. So

886
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: until then, the only frontier really is mental. Can we

887
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: come up with a new theory that brings these two

888
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: things together, that reconciles the uncertainty of quantum mechanics and

889
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: the determinism of relativity.

890
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: Well, give me like three minutes while ads play, and

891
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: I'll try to come up with something.

892
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: All right, The Katie Golden tries to win the Nobel

893
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: Prize in three minutes challenge.

894
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 3: Go Hi.

895
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 8: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

896
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 8: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean

897
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 8: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

898
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 8: three pound universe.

899
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 3: In our heads.

900
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 8: We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this

901
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 8: season to understand why and how our lives look the

902
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 8: way they do. Why does your memory drift so much?

903
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,399
Speaker 8: Why is it so hard to keep a secret, When

904
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 8: should you not trust your intuition? Why do brains so

905
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 8: easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love

906
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 8: conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds.

907
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 3: More because the more we.

908
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 8: Know about what's running under the hood, better we can

909
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 8: steer our lives.

910
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

911
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 8: Between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.

912
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 8: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio

913
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 8: app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

914
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,439
Speaker 11: Parents, are you looking for a screen free, engaging way

915
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 11: to teach your kids the Bible, one that's easy to

916
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 11: understand and enjoyable for multiple ages. Kids Bible Stories Podcast

917
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 11: is here to help. I created this for my own

918
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 11: children and it's now a favorite among thousands of families.

919
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 11: Kids love the vivid imagery, scriptures and sound effects. Will

920
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 11: parents appreciate the apply section for meaningful conversations. We have

921
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 11: hundreds and hundreds of beautiful episodes that bring the Bible

922
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 11: to life when you simply press play. It's a sound

923
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Speaker 11: and practical resource that walks alongside you as you teach

924
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 11: your kids. We want kids to see how incredible God's

925
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 11: word is in an engaging and memorable way with Kids

926
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 11: Bible Stories Podcast. Listen to Kids Bible Stories Podcast on

927
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 11: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

928
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 12: Hey everyone, this is Jimmy O'Brien from John Boy Media.

929
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 12: I want to quickly tell you about my podcast. It's

930
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 12: called Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday and

931
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 12: for about thirty minutes, I dive into three topics in

932
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 12: Major League Baseball that I am interested in breaking stories, trends, stats,

933
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 12: weird stuff. Sometimes I make up my own stats. Sometimes

934
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 12: I do a lot of research and it ends up

935
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 12: I was wrong the whole time. So that's something you

936
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 12: can get in on. Use Jimmy's Three Things podcast to

937
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 12: up to date on Major League Baseball and to make

938
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 12: you just a smidge smarter than your friend who's a

939
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 12: baseball fan. You listen to me and then you go

940
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 12: tell him, Hey, I know this and you don't. So

941
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 12: I make you smarter than your friends. That's what Jimmy's

942
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 12: Three Things is all about. Listen to Jimmy's Three Things

943
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 12: on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

944
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 12: You could also find it on the Talking Baseball YouTube channel,

945
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 12: and new episodes drop every Tuesday.

946
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 7: We think of Franklin is the doddling dude flying a

947
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 7: kite in the rain, But those twoermens are the most

948
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 7: important scientific discoveries of the time.

949
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 3: I'm evan RIGHTLFF.

950
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 13: Last season, we tackled the ingenuity of Elon Musk with

951
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 13: biographer Walter Isaacson. This time we're diving into the story

952
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 13: of Benjamin Franklin, another genius who's desperate to be dusted

953
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 13: off from history.

954
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 7: His media empire makes him the most successful self made

955
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 7: business person in America.

956
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 3: I mean he was never early to bed and early

957
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 3: to rise type person.

958
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 7: He's enormously famous. Women shut wearing their hair and what

959
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 7: was called the coiffor a la Franklin.

960
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: And who's more relevant now than ever.

961
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 7: The only other person who could have possibly been the

962
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 7: first president would have been Benjamin Franklin, but he's too

963
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 7: old and once Washington had do it.

964
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 13: Listen to on Benjamin Franklin with Walter Isaacson on the

965
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 13: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

966
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 2: All right, I think I've got it, Daniel.

967
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I'm so desperate to hear what you came

968
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 1: up with.

969
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 2: Did you guys remember to carry the.

970
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:47,720
Speaker 1: One hold on a second? Did we miss a minus signum?

971
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: Is that the whole problem? Oh my gosh, Katie, pause

972
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: this recording right now to rush off to Sweden to

973
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 1: collecting a price.

974
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 2: Well you're very welcome, but yes, let's talk about the

975
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: how to go from like our observational science to bringing

976
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: it into the brain. How could we possibly do science

977
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: from inside our own heads?

978
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: Well, sometimes it comes down to just being creative. You

979
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: know a lot of big advances in human history have

980
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 1: come from just people sitting in their dank study thinking

981
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,760
Speaker 1: about the nature of the universe and pulling ideas together.

982
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 1: You know, Einstein's revolution with a photoelectric effect. He didn't

983
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: do that experiment. He didn't have a piece of metal

984
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: and a bright light in his laboratory. Guy didn't have

985
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,919
Speaker 1: a laboratory. He read a paper or somebody else did

986
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: this experiment, and he just thought about it and had

987
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: this idea for how to explain it, and combined it

988
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: with something he heard from Max Plank about how to

989
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: explain how stuff glows and the temperature at which things glow,

990
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 1: And decades earlier, Maxwell brought together electricity and magnetism just

991
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: by writing them down nicely on a sheet of paper

992
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: and noticing that there were symmetries between them. So we

993
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: can make a lot a lot of progress in physics

994
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: just by having new ideas.

995
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: So are there people in dank rooms. I imagine them

996
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 2: with like maybe one light bulb lighting the entire room,

997
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 2: hard at work trying to figure this out. Has there

998
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: been any progress made on trying to come up with

999
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: a philosophical or mathematical explanation.

1000
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: So people have been working on this for a long

1001
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: time and it's very challenging mathematically. It's hard to see

1002
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 1: how you can get this sort of uncertainty of quantum

1003
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: mechanics and the rigor and determination of general relativity to

1004
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: play nicely together. There's been a lot of attempts, and

1005
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: a lot of them have failed. But there is a

1006
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,959
Speaker 1: new idea out there, and that's quantum relativity what we're

1007
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: talking about today, And the idea is instead of taking

1008
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: general relativity and trying to change it so that it's

1009
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: like uncertain, rather than saying, maybe the curvature of space

1010
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: time is uncertain in the way we're talking about earlier,

1011
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: it's wondering can we actually see how quantum mechanics comes

1012
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: naturally from relativeivity, Like maybe the weirdness of quantum mechanics

1013
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 1: just emerges from relativity itself, the way the ideal gas

1014
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: law emerges from the motion of particles, or hurricanes emerge

1015
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: from the swirling of droplets in the atmosphere. Is it

1016
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: possible to find hints in relativity from which we could

1017
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 1: build the weirdness of quantum mechanics directly. That's why it's

1018
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: called quantum relativity. Take relativity and find a way to

1019
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: build quantum mechanics on top of it, rather than like

1020
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: jamming quantum uncertainty directly into relativity.

1021
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 2: That's interesting because I think of when I think of

1022
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 2: sort of the direction of causality, I think of, like

1023
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 2: the small things cause the big things to happen, right,

1024
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: the little particles. There's some causality of like the small

1025
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 2: particles that make up the big things, you know, cause

1026
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: some effect, so that I would always kind of intuitively

1027
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: think like, well, we have to figure out how the

1028
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 2: small things behavior explains the big things. But it seems

1029
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: like this is more like you're taking the kind of

1030
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 2: behavior of big things with general relativity and seeing how

1031
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: that could either explain or how you could see quantum

1032
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: mechanics grow out of that.

1033
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so let's drill in on some of

1034
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 1: the details to make this a little bit more concrete.

1035
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 10: You know.

1036
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: One of the crucial things we have in quantum mechanics

1037
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 1: that we don't have in relativity is this uncertainty, this

1038
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: possibility for things to be in two locations. Right, a particle,

1039
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: for example, we say maybe it does this, and maybe

1040
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: it does that, and we said that's uncertain. It has

1041
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: both possibilities, whereas in relativity we have a lot of determination.

1042
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: Like you shoot a particle, even if it's near the

1043
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: speed of light, it's going in some direction, you know

1044
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: what it's going to do. You can calculate it. One

1045
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: of the core conflicts between these two theories is just that.

1046
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 1: So the authors of this theory quantum relativity have found

1047
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 1: a way to try to find multiple possibilities in relativity.

1048
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 1: They say, hmm, maybe there's some overlooked mathematics that shows

1049
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: us how relativity actually can have like multiple solutions simultaneously.

1050
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 1: One of the founding principles of relativity is that light

1051
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 1: always moves at the speed of light. Right, all observers

1052
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: see light moving at the speed of light, no matter

1053
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 1: how fast you're going. So you're moving in half the

1054
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: speed of light relative to the Earth. You turn on

1055
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: a flashlight, you're going to see that light beam moving

1056
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: at the speed of light relative to you. Somebody on

1057
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: the ground who sees you moving at half the speed

1058
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: of light and turning on your flashlight, they look at

1059
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: that lightbeam, they also see it moving at the speed

1060
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 1: of light. They don't see it moving at the speed

1061
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: of light plus half the speed of light. It's one

1062
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: of the really weird things about special relativity.

1063
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: Right, so light there is a constant speed of light

1064
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 2: that can't really be slowed down or sped up exactly.

1065
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: And this is the founding assumption of special relativity, at

1066
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: least to a whole bunch of mathematics that tells us

1067
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: how to see things from different perspectives. Tells us like,

1068
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: how is it possible to see light moving this speed

1069
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 1: for this observer and seeing it moved at the same

1070
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: speed for that observer. It helps us tie it all together,

1071
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: tells a different story for how the universe works, and

1072
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: time goes weird sometimes and things get short, and we

1073
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 1: have podcasts digging into all those details. But it gives

1074
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: us this picture of like how different people can see

1075
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: the universe from different velocities. And this is called the

1076
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: Lorentz transforms. It tells you how to transform between one

1077
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: observer and another observer. Because it turns out to be

1078
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: not as simple as we thought.

1079
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at this formula and doesn't look super

1080
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 2: simple to me.

1081
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: No, it's not simple, and it's nonlinear, and it's got

1082
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: square roots in it, and it gets really wonky, which

1083
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: is why relativity is so weird and time flows strangely,

1084
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: and you have the twin paradox and all that stuff.

1085
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: Now that's fine, but it turns out there's actually a

1086
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: second solution. There's another way you could describe the transformation

1087
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: how people see things in different velocities. That also satisfies

1088
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: this requirement that the speed of light is the same

1089
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: for everybody, sort of like a second solution to an equation.

1090
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: You know, if you have like X squared equals nine,

1091
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: one solution is, oh, X equals three. Another solution is

1092
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: what if X equals minus three. This is the kind

1093
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: of thing that crops up all the time in mathematics

1094
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes in physics. We be like, well minus three doesn't

1095
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: make sense. We'll just ignore that. We'll just drop the

1096
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: unphysical solution.

1097
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't have negative three apples, missus Birch.

1098
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: You can actually go into debt for apples and you

1099
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: can be apple det or prison. So yeah, thanks financial

1100
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: engineers for inventing negative money.

1101
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: I forgot that our currency was based on the Apple standard.

1102
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: Exactly. So in this scenario, there's one solution to these

1103
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: transformations to tell you, like how different observers see the

1104
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: universe different velocities, and that's the one that assumes that

1105
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,439
Speaker 1: everything travels at the speed of light or less. It's

1106
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: actually a second solution, a second way to transformed between

1107
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: these frames that holds four velocities greater than the speed

1108
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: of light. And that's like, what hold on a second,

1109
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: I thought the whole assumption of special relativity was that

1110
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: you can own only move slower than the speed of light, right,

1111
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: that is one way to interpret these transformations. There's another

1112
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: way to interpret them for velocities greater than the speed

1113
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: of light, So these would mean particles moving faster than

1114
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: the speed of light.

1115
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: What kind of particles are these? Do we know?

1116
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: So there's a theory about particles moving faster than the

1117
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: speed of light. They're called a tachions, and they do

1118
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: satisfy the mathematics of relativity, though nobody's ever seen one.

1119
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: One problem with anything moving faster than the speed of

1120
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: light is that you can end up with tricky paradoxes

1121
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: about the order of things and causality, because remember that

1122
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: observers moving at high speeds can see stuff happening at

1123
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: different times, Like if I see event A happening before

1124
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: event B, you might see the opposite order of stuff

1125
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: because you're flying by me at a high speed. That's

1126
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: one of the consequences of special relativity that you're not

1127
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: guaranteed simultaneity for all frames. That different observers can see

1128
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: the order of events differently, and that's usually fine, it's

1129
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: not a big deal. But if you can move faster

1130
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 1: than the speed of light, then you start to see

1131
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: things that are causally linked be reversed. Like, for example,

1132
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: if I fire an arrow, then somebody moving past me

1133
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: is faster than the speed of light could see the

1134
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: arrow hit the apple before I even fire it. That

1135
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,439
Speaker 1: seems sort of problematic, and people are like, yeah, let's

1136
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: just cross that off and say that doesn't happen, but

1137
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: actually opens the door and exactly the way we might

1138
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: need to link relativity with quantum mechanics, because now we

1139
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: have like two explanations for those events, like does Daniel

1140
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: fire the arrow before it hits the apple or does

1141
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: it hit the apple before I fire the arrow. So

1142
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: the idea of quantum relativity is to say, well, what

1143
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 1: if you look at these things both from the less

1144
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: than the speed of light perspective and the greater than

1145
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: the speed of light perspective, Like if you allow both

1146
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: views of it, then you have sort of like two

1147
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: different ideas for what might be happening here, and there

1148
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: isn't a deterministic explanation for which is the right one.

1149
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 2: I mean, you had mentioned earlier that this was kind

1150
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: of right because like the idea is that you can't

1151
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 2: observe causally linked events in reverse. What is the assumption

1152
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: behind that that says that you can't do that, Because like,

1153
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 2: I know, it sounds obvious, right, like, of course you can't.

1154
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: I would assume there's actually some kind of law in

1155
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 2: physics that does link to that, because you know what

1156
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 2: we know about like assumptions, Like we have all sorts

1157
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 2: of assumptions about the world works because that's how we

1158
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 2: observe it. We as humans never observe things in reverse.

1159
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 2: But is there an actual law in either physics or

1160
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 2: general relativity that would prohibit that observation from coming before

1161
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 2: the event?

1162
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. Why do we assume that

1163
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: there's causality in the universe that things have to be linked?

1164
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: And it's just sort of like part of how we

1165
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: think about physics. It's a core assumption we make. We

1166
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: don't know that it's true, but it sort of makes

1167
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: sense to us, and so we try to hold on

1168
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: to it as long as possible, build theories on that

1169
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: assumption and see if they work. But it might be

1170
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 1: that we have to give it up. There are other

1171
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 1: hints and other theories of physics, sort of the cutting

1172
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: edge that maybe causality isn't the fundamental aspect of the universe.

1173
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: It might be something we are trying to impose on it.

1174
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: You know, think about the way that we explain the universe.

1175
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: We tend to tell stories. Stories are like little causal links.

1176
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: I did this, and then she did that, and then

1177
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: this happened. It's like A, then B, and then C

1178
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: then D. It's sort of embedded deeply into how we think.

1179
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it has to be embedded deeply into

1180
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: the universe. And so this is sort of like giving

1181
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: up that causal chain and saying, well, maybe A cause B,

1182
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: but maybe B caused A. And that's where you get

1183
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: your crack in determinism in relativity, it says, maybe there

1184
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 1: are two ways to view these events, one subliminal, sorry,

1185
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: one subluminal not subliminals in slower than the speed of.

1186
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: Life about the superliminal messaging.

1187
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and one super illuminal like a view from an

1188
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: observer moving fast than the speed of light. It sees

1189
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: an opposite order of events. And this is basically the

1190
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: crack that this whole theory of quantum relativity is built on.

1191
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: It says, within relativity, maybe you can have nondeterminism because

1192
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: maybe the superluminal view of the universe is different from

1193
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 1: the subluminal view, that the order of events can be

1194
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: different from within relativity, we now see a little bit

1195
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 1: of uncertainty, a loss of determinism, and that's basically the

1196
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 1: starting place for quantum relativity.

1197
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 2: I think we have to remind ourselves that physicists are

1198
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 2: human beings and they have the same kind of mental fallacies,

1199
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: or not necessarily fallacies, but just habits the routine that

1200
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 2: all humans have, which is viewing things in terms of

1201
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 2: what we have adapted to as human beings or earlier

1202
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 2: as primates. And it's such a strong thing. There have

1203
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 2: been studies on people's behavior where when you look at

1204
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 2: like a screen that has like randomly moving dots on

1205
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 2: a screen or something like, people will try to impose

1206
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 2: some kind of like rules on this or like volition

1207
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 2: to these things, like that these feel alive because they're

1208
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 2: moving randomly, and so you think, well, then there must

1209
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: be some kind of autonomy of these things, like some

1210
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 2: reason that it's doing is so like this causality link

1211
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 2: like I mentioned earlier, It's even found in like babies,

1212
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: where you'll see like if they see something that defies

1213
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 2: the laws of very simple physics of like a ball

1214
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: hitting a ball and that ball kind of moving, they

1215
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 2: stare at that because that's not what they're expecting. So

1216
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 2: it seems like a huge challenge to overcome our humanness

1217
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 2: when we're also trying to answer these questions about the

1218
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 2: universe that do not necessarily play by the same rules

1219
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 2: as say like a primate that has some gotten smart

1220
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 2: enough to start writing down numbers.

1221
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've often seen the appearance of autonomy and

1222
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 1: action in the universe, you know, explaining whether in terms

1223
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: of some big guy in the sky throwing thunderbolts, et cetera,

1224
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: et cetera. And so we do have to be careful

1225
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: and question our assumptions. And sometimes when we are failing

1226
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: to describe the universe that we see, we need to

1227
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: circle back and say, well, maybe there's something wrong in

1228
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: the foundations of our science itself. Maybe we need to

1229
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 1: be asking questions about whether all these assumptions really hold

1230
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: and what breaks if we get rid of them, or

1231
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: what breakthroughs we might be able to make.

1232
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 2: So once we get rid of this assumption that there

1233
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 2: has to be this causality, has there been any breakthroughs

1234
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 2: in terms of then connecting this potential new model of

1235
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 2: general relativity to quantum mechanics, Like have there been successful

1236
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:58,360
Speaker 2: sort of developments in quantum relativity beyond just like maybe

1237
01:05:58,440 --> 01:05:59,959
Speaker 2: we can issue the cause.

1238
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 1: Not yet, it's sort of like a promising direction for

1239
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 1: people to build on. What it has generated is a

1240
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 1: whole series of papers arguing about it. So a bunch

1241
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: of physicians are like, hey, you can't do that. This

1242
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, and other people be like, no, actually,

1243
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: maybe it does. And so you know, it's a healthy

1244
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: conversation so far hasn't led anywhere concrete yet, but you know,

1245
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,040
Speaker 1: it might be that we look back in one hundred

1246
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 1: years and tell stories about this moment where people are like,

1247
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: wait a second, what about this basic assumption or this

1248
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: could just end up on the very, very deep trash

1249
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: can of the theories that have attempted to unify general

1250
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 1: relativity and EQUANTM mechanics and failed.

1251
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you need to fill a few trash cans

1252
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 2: full of crumpled up sheets to make a physics aline

1253
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 2: as I understand it.

1254
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 3: Exactly.

1255
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: But it's fun to examine all these assumptions to try

1256
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: to explain our universe in terms of the tiniest little particles,

1257
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: and to try to unify those theories, the ones that

1258
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: describe the really big, heavy stuff and the ones that

1259
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 1: describe the tiniest little particles flitting around inside our atoms.

1260
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:07,439
Speaker 1: Maybe one day we'll figure it out. Until then, thanks

1261
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 1: very much Katie for joining me on this journey to

1262
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: our lack of understanding about the universe.

1263
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,439
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, and really do check on whether

1264
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 2: you guys just forgot to carry the one, because you know,

1265
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 2: we all make mistakes.

1266
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: I'm on it, and if it turns out you were right,

1267
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: we'll definitely cite you. Thanks everyone for listening, See you

1268
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 1: next time. For more science and curiosity, come find us

1269
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: on social media, where we answer questions and post videos.

1270
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter, Disport, Instant, and now TikTok. Thanks for

1271
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 1: listening and remember that. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe

1272
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1273
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

1274
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of

1275
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Speaker 1: That's why they're working hard every day to find new

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Speaker 1: to learn more.

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Speaker 6: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

1285
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Speaker 6: been following me on social media, you know I love

1286
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Speaker 6: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

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Speaker 6: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

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Speaker 6: Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman, and Ininagarten. So I started a

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Speaker 6: free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips, and

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Speaker 6: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecurrek dot com slash

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Speaker 6: good Taste. That's k A T I E c o

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Speaker 6: U r ic dot com slash good Taste. I promise

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Speaker 6: your taste buds will be happy you did.

1294
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Speaker 5: Hi.

1295
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 8: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

1296
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 8: hit the number one science podcast in America.

1297
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 3: I'm a neuroscientists at.

1298
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 8: Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three pound

1299
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:17,679
Speaker 8: universe in our heads.

1300
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 3: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

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01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 8: Between your brain and your life. Because the more we

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Speaker 8: know about what's running under the hood, better we can

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Speaker 8: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

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Speaker 8: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 8: your podcasts.