1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: for another episode of the podcast. It is so great 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: to have you here. Back for another guest episode as 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: we break down the psychology of our twenties. One of 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: my favorite things about running a podcast is that I 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: get to just like have these hour long conversations with 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: people who have just done really cool, really unexpected things 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: with their life, things that I can honestly say, I 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: don't think anybody else has ever done. And today we 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: have one of those people. George Appling has a Harvard MBA. 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: He was the CEO of a multi billion dollar company, 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: and he now runs one of the world's largest renaissance fairs. 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: He runs a beer business, he owns a ranch in Austin. 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: Between those two timelines, he has also done a dozen 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: of other really cool, interesting things, all because he understands 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: this theory of matching your career path to your personality 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: and your identity. In fact, through his own work and 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: his own research, he's actually identified the five types of 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: careers people are drawn to, and how we can use 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: this theory to identify what we should be doing with 24 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: our lives at this very moment. I am so excited 25 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: for you guys to hear our conversation. I'm so excited 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: to have him on the show. Without further ado, George Appling, 27 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Psychology of your twenties. Thank you so 28 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: much for coming on. 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: Thank you Jimmer for having me. 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm super excited about this. As we were talking 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: about before we started recording, I've spoken to you for 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: a little bit here, but can you tell the listeners 33 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: about yourself and about what you do, what you like, 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: who you are sure. 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: My name's George. I'm originally from a small town in Texas. 36 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: I had a, you know, kind of a regular career 37 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: in business, so I know. I did strategy consulting for 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: a long time at firms like McKenzie and Booze, and 39 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: then I did cell phone distribution for a long time. 40 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: I ended up being the CEO of a billion dollar company, 41 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: but then that kind of enabled me to do something 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: completely different, so I threw all that stuff away and 43 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: decided to be a passion preneur. And so I've got 44 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: a bunch of companies that I run that I'm deeply, 45 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 2: deeply in love with. The core of that is Sherwood 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: Forest Fair. You had mentioned a medieval thing that you 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: guys do. So I run a medieval theme park and 48 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: so we run for Saturdays and Sundays in March and April, 49 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: and we have one hundred and seventy seven thousand guests 50 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: in seventeen day, over ten thousand people a day. And 51 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: we're all robin Hood all the time, or jousting and 52 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: falconry and drinking meat and eating trinket legs. So that's 53 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: the core. And then I've got a robin Hood summer camp, 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: and a meat business which is from It to Honey, 55 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: an audio software company, an executive coaching business, and then 56 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: you know, I wrote a book that hit Amazon number one. 57 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: It's about choosing the relationship between your passion and your work, 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: and which is different than saying your work and your 59 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: passion I have to be the same thing. I've got 60 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: five different choices in the book and it lays out 61 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: a framework for you to pick the one that's right 62 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: for you. And I'm just kind of running around the 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: country talking mostly to university students about the book. So 64 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: I know that's like the most complicated intro anyone's probably 65 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: ever done, because I just do a lot of stuff. 66 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: We've got three kids and nine horses, and you know, 67 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: I'm in living my best life. 68 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: Okay, But I love that story because it shows that 69 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: you can kind of do it all and have all 70 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: these different areas of you, like being fulfilled. As soon 71 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: as you said me business, I was like, Okay, this 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: guy's well. Actually, as soon as you said Robin Hood 73 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: and Renaissance Fair, I was like, this guy is so cool. 74 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: And I love having guests on who have like a 75 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: change in their life and go from doing like the 76 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: corporate thing to the passion thing, especially when they did 77 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: that obviously not in their twenties and did it later 78 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: in life and have become fulfilled through that. This is 79 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: what really drew me into your book and into what 80 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: you have to say. You have this really cool story. 81 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: You were a strategy consultant, you were the CEO of 82 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: a billion dollar company. Now you have like what seems 83 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: like the coolest profession ever. Part of that change, I'm 84 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: sure for you was also discovering these five career paths 85 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: and probably doing a lot of deep work within yourself 86 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: to figure this out. Can you tell people what these are? 87 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: These five career paths you describe. 88 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: Sure, and these are I thought about these paths for 89 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: years and years and years before putting them down into 90 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: the book. So you know, I had that little you know, 91 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: that little app called Microsoft Note your phone, and I 92 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 2: would like type in notes for decades, you know, I 93 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: mean not probably two decades, not three or four of 94 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: but trying to kind of really congeal into what these 95 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: paths are, so that they are five paths, and the 96 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: paths are different ways that passion and work can relate 97 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: to each other. One is, of course passion, and that's 98 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 2: where your passion and your work are the same thing. 99 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: Now And I am typically talking to you know, people 100 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: in their twenties and so that you know, path makes 101 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 2: sense if you have the capability and the desire to 102 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: monetize the passion, and your need for financial security is 103 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: relatively low. If all those things are true, then the 104 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: passion now path makes sense for you. There's the independent 105 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: path where your passion and your work don't have anything 106 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: to do with one another. I think that tends to 107 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: be the fault path of humans, where like the world 108 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: will do that to you. But in my framework, there's 109 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: a certain set of conditions where that's the right thing 110 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: for you. And my belief is that if you choose 111 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: the independent path and you say to yourself, my passion 112 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: and my work are not going to be the same thing, 113 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: then you're going to be more productive and content and 114 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: fulfilled because you decided as opposed to letting the world 115 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: decide that for you. There's the experiment path, which is 116 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: typically for people who don't know what their passion is. 117 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: Experiment just means open yourself up to things, try a 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: bunch of stuff. It could be trying things in different geographies. 119 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: I spent a most of a year in Melbourne, by 120 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: the way. It could be trying different functions and more organization. 121 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: It could be trying business versus government versus nonprofit. It 122 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: could be learning in the language, it's whatever. It's kind 123 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: of exposing yourself to as much as possible to look 124 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 2: for that spark. That's the experiment path. There's the money path, 125 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: which you know we all know the well you did 126 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 2: strategy consulting, so you know the friends who went to 127 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: Goldman Sachs in Morgan Stanley, like they had to have 128 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: tons of money and they just weren't going to be 129 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 2: able to calm down until that happened. And so if 130 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: your need for financial security is that high, it may 131 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: be the right thing for you to do to go 132 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: on the money path. And then the last one is 133 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: the balanced path, and that's what I did. And the 134 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: balance path is you go through a regular career, hopefully 135 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: you love it, and it's about building capabilities and wealth 136 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 2: and reputation and network so that five, ten, fifteen, twenty 137 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: years later you switch to the passion path and your 138 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: probability of success is higher. So that's what I did, right. 139 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: I did all my strategic consulting and running celf one 140 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: distribution companies, and so then when I turned over to 141 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: the passion path sixteen years ago, I had savings, and 142 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: I had capabilities, and I had reputation and network, and 143 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: it made my chances of success hire. 144 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: So I love this framework because I think everyone kind 145 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: of fits somewhere. Do you think that like with the 146 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: passion path as well? That could be like the like 147 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: the volunteer path. I guess like people who sacrifice, like 148 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: their whole mission in life is to do good for others. 149 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: Is that like where that one kind of fits in? 150 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a lot of different things. So 151 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: first off, I'll back up and say I've got a 152 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: pretty decent data set on people going through their framework 153 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: and choosing the five paths. So I think I'm at 154 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: like over three thousand people have taken my little online tool. 155 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: It takes like five minutes and they choose And what's 156 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: beautiful about the result is that the top one is 157 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: balanced and it's at like twenty six percent, and the 158 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: bottom one is passion now, but it's like sixteen And 159 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: so you know, there's five paths. If the world were 160 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: distributed equally, they would be twenty percent each. Yeah, they're 161 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: like sixteen to twenty six or something like. They're each 162 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: of the five paths really has an audience. So I 163 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: feel really good about the definitions to your question though 164 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: about the passion path, Yeah, there's a lot going on there. 165 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: So there are you know a lot of artists want 166 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: to do that path where you know, I've got a 167 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: friend named Roxanne, and she just wasn't going to be 168 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: satisfied with the universe, so she wasn't making music like 169 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: that was it she's going to make music, and she 170 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 2: realized the probability of financial success is very low, and 171 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: so she structured her life to be able to live frugally. 172 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: But she lives this brilliant life like she will. She 173 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: lives in America, and she will fly to Spain for 174 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 2: you know, a summer and put a hat in the 175 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: street and play music and make three hundred euro on 176 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: day one, and day two she's a tourist, and day 177 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: three she puts the hat down and plays music and 178 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: makes two hundred euro, and day four she's a tourist. 179 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: And she's done that over and over and over again. 180 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 2: But you know she's she's staying in a youth hostel 181 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: for twenty euro a night, not two hundred or more. Right, So, 182 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: you know, if you're going to follow in arts path 183 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: at a young age, you might make it big financially, 184 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 2: but you probably won't. And so you've got to get 185 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: your head around being fulfilled, you know, without being rich. 186 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 2: But there's all sorts of things on the path. When 187 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: I talk to these university students all the time, and 188 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: I'll find people who they're just completely in love with cars, 189 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: and if they get to sell cars for a living, 190 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: they're just over the moon. That's it. All they want 191 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: to do is just sell cars and drive cars and 192 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: play with cars and talk about cars like okay, you 193 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: know you could. There's a lot of there's a lot 194 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: of jobs, you know where you can think about cars 195 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: all day. So it's a it's a it's a broader 196 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: path than people would think. And the nonprofit you hit that, 197 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that do that. There's a 198 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,599 Speaker 2: lot of people drawing to public service that would be 199 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 2: on the passion path. A lot of people that teaching 200 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: are are you know, drawn to it by by a 201 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: genuine passion, So it could be a lot of things. 202 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. See, this is the thing about the passion path 203 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: that I always say to people because I did the 204 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: independent path for a long time where I was like 205 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: balancing this poll cost and I worked as a consultant 206 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: and I definitely burnt out. The thing with the passion 207 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: path is, yeah, you're right, you have to be okay 208 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: to make no money for probably a long time slash ever, 209 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: and I've also found it. I don't know if you've 210 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: found this as well. Do people who monetize their passion 211 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: fall out of love with it for a little bit 212 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: or do you think that this path is really the 213 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: one that you just fall back in love with it 214 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: time and time again. I remember when I like the 215 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: podcast became my full time job, you immediately love it 216 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: less because there's all this stuff wrapped up in financial security. 217 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: Have you found that in some of the interviews with 218 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: some of the people you've spoken to. 219 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, this is something I talk about in my 220 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 2: university talks and in the book, that it's not unusual 221 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: for a passion to dim when it becomes your livelihood. 222 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: That being said, I think there are there are variations 223 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: in there, and so the one I talk about a 224 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: lot is is painting. It seems to happen a lot 225 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: that when your passion is painting and you're bringing a 226 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: vision of something beautiful to your mind to canvas with 227 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: oil and then showing it to the world, you're just 228 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: completely and utterly in love with it. But when you're 229 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: bringing someone else's vision to life on canvas with oil 230 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: and you're getting paid for it, and it has a 231 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: deadline and they have critiques, it just sucks. Right, It's 232 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: just complete shit that you have to incite hate it. 233 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: So painters moving from doing it for love to doing 234 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 2: it for money, I think has a pretty bad success rate. 235 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: And so like, that's the trick about the passion path, 236 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 2: is you got it? Yeah, two different thoughts. One you 237 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: got to dig deep on the question of do I 238 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 2: really really want to do this for a living? You've 239 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: got to dig deep on that. And the second thing 240 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: to think about is the passion is something that typically 241 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: lasts forever or decades, and it animates you, you know, 242 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: it's kind of your reason for being. I talk a 243 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: lot about ikey Guy, which is a Japanese framework in 244 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: the book, and it's something that really gives you energy 245 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: all the time. And it can be distinguished from something 246 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: that you really enjoy. It can be distinguished from something 247 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: that is pleasurable, it can be distinguished from something you love. Right, 248 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: It's something that is giving you energy and a driving 249 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: force for hopefully ever. So you got to, you know, 250 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: dig deep on whether that's true. 251 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: I personally really relate to that. People are always like, 252 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: how can your passion be podcasting? And I'm like, no, 253 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: because since I was a kid, like this is the 254 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: medium that I loved, Like I have these visceral memories, 255 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: like these very intense memories of listening to podcasts with 256 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: my mom, like listening to this American life when I 257 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: was like a child and being like this is amazing, 258 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: Like I love what they do with this, and yeah, 259 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: it feels great that I found it so early. What 260 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: would you say to people who because I this is 261 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: my thought on this, I feel like I have all 262 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: these conversations obviously with people in their twenties, A lot 263 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: of people want to find their passion and their purpose 264 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: as a means to fulfill them. What would you say 265 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: to people who are looking at their life and being like, wait, 266 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: I just don't have that. I don't have it now. 267 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: Maybe I've never had anything like that. 268 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say three things if I can say, I've 269 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: kind of take notes now so I can remember all 270 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: all of my three things. But I'm going to talk 271 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: about digging breadth and work. Okay, So first, one of 272 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: my favorite books for the last ten years is Grit 273 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: by Angela Duckworth, and one of the things she talked 274 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: about in there is that passion is rarely, if ever, 275 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: something you discover because you're sitting down and asking yourself 276 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: the question what am I passionate about? It just doesn't 277 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: really work that way. It tends to be a spark 278 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: of something that gets you excited and then you start 279 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: digging into it and you're like, oh, that's really interesting. Oh, 280 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: and you keep going and you keep going and you 281 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: keep going. So creating a passion in something tends to 282 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: be a lot of work. It tends to be digging 283 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: and going deeper and putting time into it, put an 284 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: energy into it, get to know people into it, reading 285 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: about it. So passion is rarely a thunderstrike moment. It's 286 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: usually a process to figure that out. So the first 287 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: thing is, that's my first suggestion is don't expect to 288 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: find the passion by sitting there asking yourself looking at 289 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 2: the blue sky, going what am I passionate about? You 290 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: can do that, and I've got a passion tree in 291 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: my book to help you think about that, but just 292 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: bear in mind it's probably going to take some work. 293 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: The second is is breadth, and it's this idea that 294 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: there's an incredible breadth of things that a human being 295 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: could be passionate about. Podcast renaissance festivals like this is 296 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: gonna be the weirdest thing you've ever heard. I think 297 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: I've just fell in love. I think I'm passionate about 298 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: analytical insight, meaning using math to solve a problem and 299 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: coming up with something that no one else had come 300 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: up with or that's hard to come up with. That. 301 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: I just love that. And here's the example that's just 302 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: the most boring thing you can imagine. A long time ago, 303 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: I built a supply curve and a demand curve for 304 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: paraffin wax. I had a Harvard MBA, and I'm making 305 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: a lot of money and I'm just jazzed by analytical insights. 306 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: So breath. You could be passionate about so many things. 307 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: And I mentioned cars and music. I mean it's really 308 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: it's okay, like you can be passionate, but just about 309 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff. So open yourself, open your mind. 310 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: And then the third thing, you know it work. Yeah, 311 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: you might have to work at it to figure it out. 312 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is you know. I love that book Grit 313 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: as well. And a study that I always tell people 314 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: about is that more than intelligence, pure intelligence, more than 315 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: emotional intelligence, more than anything, grit is the biggest predictor 316 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: of success in passion, in intellectual pursuit, in money, in 317 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: improving your skill. They have done this this huge study 318 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: that looks at this and they are like, what makes 319 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: the best people the best? Because you know, Taylor Swift 320 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: isn't the best vocalist, and like, there are certain athletes 321 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: who don't actually have the best physique for their sport, 322 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: and yet they become incredibly successful because they just want 323 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: to work for it. So that I love that you 324 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: mentioned that book. It's like definitely required reading if you 325 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: like if you like the. 326 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: Podcast, yeah, I love the book. I also I love 327 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 2: your Taylor Swift example because of what I use is 328 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: Ed Sheeran. If you listen to his music at sixteen, 329 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: it's kind of awful, and he just worked and worked 330 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: and worked, and now he's one of the biggest stars 331 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: in the world. 332 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's written so many songs like and also 333 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: I feel like he talks a lot about how he 334 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: doesn't have this face for like commercial music, and he 335 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: kind of like makes fun of himself and it's like, yeah, 336 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: but the but the work and like the care and 337 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: the love for it definitely comes through and makes people 338 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: believe in what you're doing as well. I want to 339 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: shift gears. We've talked about passion a lot, because I 340 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: think that's often the path that a lot of people 341 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: in their twenties care about. But the one I'm particularly 342 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: drawn to talking about here is the experiment path. Now, 343 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: am I correct in saying this is the least popular 344 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: in your research? 345 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: I think that is right. I think I mean I 346 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 2: could pull it up, but yeah, I think that is 347 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: in it's in last place. But you know, like I said, 348 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: each of these fans really has an audience. 349 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so the experiment path, it's basically, to kind 350 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: of paraphrase what you said before, this is like for 351 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: people who are keen to just try different things and 352 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: to you know, be a woodworker one day, a tax 353 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: accountant the next, maybe bird watch. I'm thinking about my uncle, 354 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: who definitely like loves the experiment path. Why do you think, firstly, 355 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: do you think this is an important path for people 356 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: to be on in their twenties? And why do you 357 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: think maybe people shy away from it? 358 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? One thing you said was, you know, felt drawn 359 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: to experiment. I think in my mind the experiment path 360 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: is it's a choice you make, and it typically is 361 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 2: a choice you make because you don't know what your 362 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: passion is and so what, and you're going to go 363 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 2: find it. And while you're going to find it, you're 364 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: going to build skills, You're going to meet new people, 365 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: you're going to see new places, you're going to understand 366 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 2: new industries, right, and you're just going to go try stuff. 367 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 2: And I think it's a it's a beautiful thing to 368 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 2: do for people in their twenties. And I'll tell you 369 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: my favorite example. Matthew McConaughey, who roughly everyone in the 370 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: world loves. Yeah, he's here in Austin where I am. 371 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 2: He did. This is a really neat segue for me 372 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: and you. So Matthew mcconnor, he's from Austin and he 373 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: did his experiment path in Australia. So when he was 374 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: very young, like eighteen years old, he went and spent 375 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: a year in Australia. It's in his biography called Green Lights. 376 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 2: And he did like six fundamentally different jobs in Australia, 377 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 2: just completely different stuff like you know, law clerk and 378 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: engine mechanic and lifeguard and I'm just making these things. 379 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: Up, like, oh no, they well, i'd probably like fruit picking. 380 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, he just did these completely different jobs and the 381 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 2: point was to just sort of open your mind to 382 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 2: all of the things that exist in this world. And 383 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: that's you know, something i'd like to I'll plant this 384 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: seat and maybe we'll have a separate conversation or I 385 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: need to write an article about this. And this is 386 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: something I feel really struggling about now because I have 387 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: a seventeen year old daughter and she's applying to college 388 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 2: now ish in the next you know, one, two, three months, 389 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: and what the universities are telling her is convince us 390 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 2: that you know what you're passionate about, and that you're 391 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: going to major in it, and that you're going to graduate, 392 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 2: and that you're going to get a job in that field. 393 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: And I just think that's such a disservice. How the 394 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 2: hell is a seventeen year old supposed to know that? 395 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: Some of them do, but I think most of them don't. 396 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: And so now there's this industry of consultants who are 397 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 2: teaching seventeen year olds how to pretend to universities that 398 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: they know what they're passionate about. It's awful. And so 399 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 2: I think, what, because you know, by definition, at that age, 400 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 2: you haven't seen all that. You don't know what strategy 401 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: consulting is, right, Yeah, I mean there's so many things 402 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: in the world, Like I like to look around me 403 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: and think you know, somebody specializes in how to make 404 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: monitors or ice machines. I mean, like all these things, 405 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: and you don't know that. So you've got to go 406 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: into the world and see all these things that are 407 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: being done to find that spark is something you might love. 408 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: And so like insisting that at seventeen you're supposed to 409 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: know that, I think as a real deservice to young people. 410 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: It's something I hear about all the time where it's like, 411 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: what you're meant to decide? You're like, your brain is 412 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: still a decade away from maturation. You haven't had any 413 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: kind of really truly independent experiences. You've probably only have 414 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: seen the zero point zero zero two percent of the world. 415 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: And they're like, cool, lock yourself into this path, strap 416 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: yourself in, and if you're not happy, well, quitting that 417 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: that's a sign of failure. That's a sign that you 418 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: don't have a willingness, or you don't have grit, or 419 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: you don't have discipline. And my sister is also seventeen, 420 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 1: and I was talking to her about it, and I 421 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: was like, my best advice is to just choose whatever 422 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: you care about the most right now, and then just 423 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: take as many electives as possible, travel as much as possible. 424 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 1: Like I went to university, I did economics and politics. 425 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: I really do not talk about that now, but it 426 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: was just the experience of being around like minded people 427 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: who cared about things that also really like push me 428 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: to that point. This kind of segues into my next question, 429 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: which is, why do you think people feel such a 430 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: pressure again to choose something, to say this is who 431 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: I am, and to maybe never walk away from it. 432 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: Is that something that you've seen a lot of people do, 433 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: maybe in later decades of their life. 434 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: Sure, So, just to wrap on that last question of 435 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 2: the experiment path, I think it's much better advice to 436 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: do it. Mathon McConaughey did go to Australia and do 437 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: six jobs for a year, or like people must call 438 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: a gap year, like go expose yourself to the world 439 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 2: because you might find something else that you can make 440 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 2: a passionate about. You might find your passion, you might 441 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 2: just you might fall in love, I mean whatever, you 442 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: got to get your skit out there, right, Yeah, you 443 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: know so, I'm a big fan of exposing yourself to 444 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: the world, doing a gap year, all that kind of thing, 445 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: as opposed to pretending that you know what you're passionate about, 446 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 2: So why do people feel pressured to declare their passionate 447 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 2: early on? So from a university point of view, there 448 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: is this really understandable but ultimately sad rationale. So the 449 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: universities in the United States, and it's probably not different 450 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: in Australia, but I don't know, I know it's true 451 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: here they're very focused on rising up in the rankings, 452 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: you know, and like Fords in the US, new report 453 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: in these magazines will rank universities and those rankings are 454 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 2: based on metrics, and the metrics include things like graduation 455 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: rate or like percentage of people I don't want to 456 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: say kids, people who graduate in four or five years, 457 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: percentage of people who have a job within three months 458 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: after graduation, everage starting salary. And it turns out for 459 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 2: at least the best universities, if you pick those people 460 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: who are seventeen years old and they do know what 461 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: they're passionate about, they do better in those metrics. Right, 462 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: They're more likely to graduate because they're studying something they like. 463 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: They're more likely to get a job because they're passionate 464 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 2: about it, and they're more likely to get paid well 465 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: down the line because they're doing something they're passionate about. 466 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: So from a good university point of view, you're creating 467 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: this incentive for people to lie to you, because what 468 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 2: you really want those people, right, you want those seventeen 469 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 2: year olds who know exactly what they want. That's who 470 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 2: you want because they're going to drive your numbers up. 471 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: So it's this really sort of perverse incentive that that's 472 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: become the predominant message to very young people, like you 473 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,959 Speaker 2: got to do what you're passionate about, and you don't like. 474 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 2: I think telling someone that they're working their passion has 475 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: to be the same thing is a mistake because it's 476 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: not true. Right Like for me, you know, I'm running 477 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 2: a bunch of businesses. I would probably be failing if 478 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: I tried to do that at twenty years old. Right, 479 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: I had to do twenty years of and it wasn't 480 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: paying dues. I loved what I was doing, but I 481 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: learned so much and I got financial security so that 482 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: you know, I started to follow my passion. I had 483 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: a much higher probability success because I had all these 484 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: capabilities and I had the ability to fund scaling up 485 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 2: some of my companies. So I think telling twenty somethings 486 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 2: you should work at what you're passionate about now, I 487 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: think is a mistake. I think that's true for twenty 488 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: percent of them. 489 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: I look it at it literally, you have the data 490 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: and I'm looking at it right. Yeah. And additionally, I 491 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: just think that it's like I always say this to people. Firstly, 492 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: I loved what you just told me about the universities. 493 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: I had no idea that that was the case. But 494 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: anytime someone says you should be doing this, know that 495 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: this should benefits them, Like if someone is so hell 496 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: bent on getting you to do something a certain way, 497 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: there's an ulterior motive always. And secondly, like I get 498 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: all of these questions from people being like, I don't 499 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: know what I want to do with my life. You 500 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: have so much time to figure it out, like you 501 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: genuinely do. I love surrounding myself with examples of people 502 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: who just pivot and shift later in life and who 503 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: just do really cool things, And it's like, all it's 504 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: this hindsight, right, all of these little all these little 505 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: things like actually contribute to this final goal. So we 506 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: are going to take a short break here, but when 507 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: we return, I do want to talk about what occurs 508 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: when people are pursuing their ideal career path and how 509 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: you can determine it and why again people feel so 510 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: much pressure to have it all figured out. So stay 511 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: with us. This is my next big line of questioning 512 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: for you. So just as a little revision for people 513 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: who we did talk about it right at the top 514 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: of the episode. The five career paths are independent, money, passion, experiment, 515 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: and balanced. How do people identify which one of these 516 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: is right for them right now? Is there like a feeling, 517 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: Is there a state of mind, a state of flow 518 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: that they can kind of look out for. 519 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think choosing one of the five paths is 520 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: about this framework that I have in my book. It 521 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: sounds complicated, but it's a four by three matrix. But 522 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: just to explore those two axes for a second, The 523 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: y axis is can I monetize a passion? And I've 524 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: got four answers to that, yes, now, yes, later, I 525 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: don't know, which typically means I don't know what passion is, 526 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 2: and no, I cannot monetize the passion. And I like 527 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: to joke that if your only passion is smoking pot 528 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: and playing video games, the answer might be no and 529 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: then I've got this professor friend of mine. He says, 530 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 2: you can monetize both smoking pot and playing playing video games. 531 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I can monetize being in the 532 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,959 Speaker 1: pop business and being in a video game business. 533 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: But smoking pot and playing video games. That's really hard 534 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: of autoitize it. And then that that's one. And then 535 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 2: the x axis is need for financial security high manim low. 536 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: And I've got you in the tool and in the 537 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: book there's like these ten questions and you score them 538 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: one to ten and you add it up and it 539 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: tells you whether you're high him or low. And so 540 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: then the five paths are plotted on that matrix, so 541 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: you figure out which square you're in, and it will 542 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 2: say this is the right path for you, And for 543 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: most of them there's a choice of one or two. 544 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: And then it really narrows it down a couple of 545 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: easy examples. If you if the answer to the question 546 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: can I monetize a passion is the answers yes now now, 547 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: and your need for financial security is low, well, then 548 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: the answer is the passion path. Why would you not? Right? 549 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: If you have the capability and the desire to monetize 550 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: the passion, now and you're not worried about money, go 551 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: for it. Conversely, if your need for financial security is 552 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: high and like you're just you're not going to be 553 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: comfortable until you've got a financial cushion that is going 554 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: to push you toward the money path. If you don't 555 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: know what your passion is, that's going to push you 556 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: to the experiment path. And so just you go through 557 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: the framework and it'll help you pick one of the five. 558 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: See. I like this. This is the kind of stuff 559 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: that my mind really enjoys, is frameworks, data and the evidence. 560 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: And I feel like that's what a lot of people 561 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: are looking for. Is like I don't need to know 562 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: exactly what I'm going to do, but I do want 563 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: to know what kind of general steps I should take. 564 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: I do have a question about the people who are 565 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: really focused on the money path. Is there some maybe 566 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 1: personality the aspect or maybe cultural theme that you've noticed 567 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: for the people who are quite focused on gaining financial 568 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: security or finding a lot of financial success in their work. 569 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's not a personality type from a 570 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: psychology point of view, It's not like a Big five 571 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: thing or an MBT. I think I think it tends 572 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: to be a it's a I think it's a family 573 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: history thing. So I'll tell you the exemplar I use. 574 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 2: Who's a guy I respect a lot. He's a podcaster now. 575 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: His name is Scott Galloway. Have you heard of Scott Galloway? 576 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: You know what I feel like I have. 577 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: He's a big influencer, and you know, as a professor 578 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 2: at the Stern School of Business at New York University, 579 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 2: very very popular, and he's my exemplar for the money path. 580 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you how he got there. How he 581 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: got there three things. One is he grew up very 582 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: poor and he had this experience and he was in 583 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: the northern part of the US. I don't remember. It's 584 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: Wisconsin or Michigan or whatever, one of those places where 585 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: it gets cold. Doesn't really need cold here in Texas, 586 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: and he lost his coat, and he was afraid to 587 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 2: tell his mother that he lost his coat because he 588 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: knew that the thirty dollars to replace it would be 589 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: really painful. Shouldn't tell her. So then he come home 590 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: from school one day and it's you know, twenty degrees 591 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: outside and he's shivering and read and his mother's like, 592 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: where's your coat? Man? And he had to say that 593 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: he lost it and that kind of scarred him a 594 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: little bit. And then fast forward, you know, fifteen years 595 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 2: he was in his twenties and he was doing well, 596 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 2: but his mother got cancer and there were some treatments 597 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: that they could have tried if they had money, and 598 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 2: they didn't, and that scarred him again. And so he 599 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 2: decided he had to be rich, and so he went 600 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: into investment bank and went to Morgan Stanley and he 601 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: did to get rich thing. And I you know, one 602 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: could argue, see, he wasn't on the balance path, because 603 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: in the balance path you may be building wealth, but 604 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 2: it's with an eye towards switching to the passion path later. 605 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: What he did, though, is he got so wealthy that 606 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 2: he he got off the money path. And now I 607 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: think he's on the passion path. He's a podcapter and 608 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: an influencer and he's trying to do some good for 609 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: the world. But he was on the money path because 610 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: that was not the goal. He kind of figured that 611 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 2: out later and I thought it's really important for people 612 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: on the money path is in my opinion, there's two 613 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: different views on high wealth. One view is more is 614 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: better and the other view is enough is enough, And 615 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: I'm very convinced and I should do the survey somehow 616 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: that the more is Better people are much less happy 617 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 2: than the enough is enough people because the more is 618 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 2: better people they never stop from the money path. They 619 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 2: keep going that. They're like hamsters on a wheel. They 620 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: just can't get off the enough is enough people. They 621 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 2: can get off of the money path and they can 622 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 2: switch to the passion path when they think, okay, I mean, 623 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: like Scott Galloway's net worth is over one hundred million dollars. 624 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: You can't spend that much money. Have to wake up 625 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: and try to spend that much money. Yeah, so he's 626 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: in enough as enough person. So now he's doing stuff 627 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: that he thinks he's good for the world. 628 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: You know how you mentioned that you want to do 629 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: a study on this. Do you know the term the 630 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: hedonic treadmill or yeah. 631 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like the rat and the wheel is you 632 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: buy something new and six months later or six weeks later, 633 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: it doesn't bring you happiness anymore. It's just normal. 634 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: And they've done all these studies, well, they haven't done 635 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: a lot, but there's a particularly famous one about people 636 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: who win the lottery and people who get paralyzed that 637 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: I've talked about in the podcast before, and you would expect, 638 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: like if I make all this money, my life is 639 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: going to change, but then of course it actually goes 640 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: back to a relatively stable level. And I would assume 641 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: that people who are like the more and more more people, 642 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: their only hit is coming from gaining wealth, and so 643 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: they're on this like hodonic treadmill of like, Okay, when 644 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: I get here, I'll be happy. And they think that 645 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: they're enough is enough person, but they're not. They are 646 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: actually a more as more person. Be so interesting to 647 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: see like the distinction between like the psychological drivers behind 648 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: these people, and like, yeah, because I yeah. 649 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: It would be fascinating to you know, disaggregate people in 650 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,439 Speaker 2: wealthy people into more is better and enough is enough 651 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: and then test that against their happiness and their fulfillment 652 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 2: and their productivity and their relationships with for instant family, 653 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,439 Speaker 2: and their physical health. Because I would bet I would 654 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 2: bet that the enough is enough people score better on 655 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: a lot of life outcomes. The more of better people. 656 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, totally. Because it's also like they can relax 657 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: at some stage and they can give back, and we 658 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: know that generosity and pro social spending is like super empowering, 659 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: which kind of brings me to this next question that 660 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: I have, which is specifically for people in their twenties, 661 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: how do you recommend we handle comparison within our career path? 662 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: So seeing people make more money than us, seeing people 663 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: know what their passion is, seeing people being able to 664 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: monetize their passion, how do we manage that. 665 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 2: You have to just not do it right, You have 666 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: to not do it. Your social comp persons is useless. 667 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 2: And so I'll give you two kind of thoughts. One 668 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: is a good friend of mine as a professor of 669 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 2: business strategy at Texas A and M. And his saying that 670 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 2: he says all the time is today is a good 671 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 2: day to be better than I was yesterday. He just 672 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 2: says it all the time. And then I've got out 673 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 2: of buddy. He's one of the best full contact jousters 674 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: in the world. It's his thing, right, it's his fashion. 675 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 2: And he says, you know, I'm not competing with anyone. 676 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 2: I'm competing to be better than I was yesterday. And 677 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: so then here's what might be a tip. It comes 678 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 2: from Atomic Habits by James Clear and it's this mathematical 679 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 2: reality that one point zero raised to the three hundred 680 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: and sixty fifth power is one point zero one point 681 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 2: zero one. So one percent more raised to the three 682 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty fifth power is thirty seven thirty seven 683 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 2: versus one. So if you can get one percent better 684 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: every day, you're gonna be thirty seven times better at 685 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 2: the end of the year. And maybe one percent every 686 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 2: day is too much, but get one percent better every 687 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: month or every quarter or every year, and that's all 688 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 2: you really need to do. You know, screwed everybody else's doing. 689 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 2: Get one percent better. 690 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: And I'm sure you've seen that way. I've seen that work. 691 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: Like I'm running a half marathon on the weekend. I 692 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: couldn't run three k's when I first at the start 693 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: of the year. And it's just also committing to being 694 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: slow and steady and understanding. And if you're a frequent 695 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: listener of the podcast, so you will know this analogy 696 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: comparison is not a ladder. It is a circle. We 697 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: often assume that it's like, oh, there's someone who's better 698 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: than me, and there's someone who's better than them, and 699 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: there's someone at the very top who has everything. Actually, 700 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: you're comparing yourself to Jill, who's comparing yourself to Joe, 701 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: who's comparing herself himself to Michael, who's comparing himself to you. 702 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: Every single person has something that someone else does not have, 703 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: and that person has something that you don't have, And so, 704 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: understanding that you are comparing based on a figment of 705 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: your insecurity, you imagine their life as being amazing because 706 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: you aren't sure that your life is. That was like 707 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: the real key that unlocked it for me, where I 708 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this is me just trying to sabotage me, 709 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: using this person as like an excuse. 710 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: I love it. I love what you're saying because this 711 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 2: is all this is all inside of you. Right, So 712 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 2: you're better at running a half marathon this month than 713 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 2: you were last month, and I can see by the 714 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: smile on your face you're taking pride and getting better 715 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: at your goal of a half marathon. What could you 716 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 2: could be going Look at this person who can run 717 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 2: a marathon every week. They're so cool and I'm so bad, Right, 718 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: I'm so envious because they're awesome. That would be completely 719 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 2: useless to you. And think about how much happier you 720 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: are as a human because your mindset is I'm better 721 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: than it was last month, and that's great. And you 722 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 2: know what, I'm going to get better next month too, 723 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 2: and I'm going to achieve this goal. Like that's a 724 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 2: really positive and promuctive mindset. 725 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: Speaking of advice, we have one well, I have one 726 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: final question for you. We ask every single listener this question, 727 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: which is, what is one thing you wish you had 728 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: known in your twenties? One piece of advice that has 729 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: nothing to do with what we talked about today. 730 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 2: Take care of your body. And I'm going to give 731 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 2: you the mathematical reason to take care of your body. 732 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 2: So there's this idea of maximum heart rate, which is 733 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 2: two twenty minus your age. So if you're the math 734 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 2: is easy for twenty years old, your maximum heart rate 735 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 2: is two hundred. So then there's all these correlations that 736 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: are about to happen. If you can get your heart 737 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 2: rate to sixty percent of maximum at least thirty minutes 738 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: a day, at least five days a week, that's the 739 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 2: independent variable. And you can do that on anything but 740 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 2: sixty percent of maximum heart rate, which would be one 741 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty beats per mint. It if you're twenty 742 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 2: years old, at least thirty minutes a day at least 743 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 2: five days a week. Here come the correlations. Negatively correlated 744 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 2: with heart disease, which is the number one killer, negatively 745 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 2: correlated with cancer, which is the number two killer. Negatively 746 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 2: correlated with anxiety, depression, and suicide attempts positively correlate correlation 747 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 2: with longevity, happiness, IQ, sex appeal is negatively correlated with 748 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: all the worst things and positively correlated with all the 749 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 2: best things. I mean, think about happiness, longevity, and IQ. 750 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 2: What the hell else do you want? Yeah, And so 751 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: when I make this impassion to plea to students, I'm like, 752 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 2: there is not a better case for a human being 753 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 2: to do anything in this life than that case I 754 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 2: just made you. It is not possible to make a 755 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 2: better case than that. So please find that thing that 756 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,720 Speaker 2: you can do with your body, and at my age, 757 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 2: a brisk walk will do it right. Yeah, find that thing. 758 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 2: It might be tennis or swimming or weightlifting, or it 759 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 2: could do anything right, whatever it is. Find that thing. Well. 760 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: I love that advice. I think that's like no one's 761 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: ever forgiven it before either, So that's always hater thing. 762 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: I love it, and I just want to thank you 763 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: again for coming on. This conversation has honestly been so 764 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: fun for me, which is always like a good way 765 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: to end interviews. And I just love what you're putting 766 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: out into the world. So you want to say a 767 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: big thank you. Where can people find you as well? 768 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 2: They can finally at George Japling dot com. 769 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: Cool and I'm going to leave a link in the 770 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: description for George's book. I know a lot of psychology 771 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: students do listen to the podcast if you are interested 772 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: in organizational psychology specifically. I think this is a good companion, 773 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: especially if you want to practice and you want to 774 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: practice with people who are in emerging adulthood. Great great 775 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: example of a book for that. So again, George, thank 776 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: you so much, and thank you to everyone who has 777 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 1: listened this far. If you have made it this far, 778 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: leave in the comment below what you think your current 779 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: career path is. Is an independent money passion experiment or 780 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: balanced Let's see if we can match George's numbers here 781 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: and match his his statistics. As always, if you enjoy 782 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: the podcast, leave a five star review. Make sure you 783 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: are following along and following us on Instagram at that 784 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. It's December guest month on the podcast, so 785 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: we have some cool other guests coming in. Make sure 786 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: that you are following us to see who they are. 787 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: And until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle 788 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,439 Speaker 1: to yourself, and we will talk very soon