1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. Fellow conspiracy realist. Are you 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: currently listening to us while cooking? Are you using a 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: non stick pan? Who? Buddy, we got some news for you. 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Are you watching YouTube videos by the comedy music group 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: the Non Stick Pans. Well, if you're not, you shouldn't. 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: They do some really great David Bowie impressions. But no, 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: the real thing, non stick pans and the cover up 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: behind that chemical that leads to that very specific effect. Boy, 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: oh boy, is it worth a podcast and more. 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 3: We have some very specific memories about nonstick pans in 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: this episode, and we think it might line up with 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 3: some of yours. We want to hear from you, so 13 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 3: when you finish, definitely right to us. Let us know. 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 4: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 4: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 4: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the show. 18 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: My name is Noel, and our compatriot Matt is actually 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: on vacation, but we'll be returning soon. In the meantime, 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: they call me Ben. We were joined with our super 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: you are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 23 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: want you to know. 24 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 2: Today is one of those the more you know kind 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: of episodes. 26 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: It really, it really is on the surface, on the 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: on the non stick frictionaliss surface. It may sound a 28 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: little bit mundane, but we have uncovered a tale that 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: is decades in the making and pretty disturbing. The story starts, 30 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: uh in the time of the ancient Greeks. Really, if 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: you think about it, the plan Greeks. Yes, that's correct. 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: You back in the old days. For most of human history, 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: anybody who cooked something struggled to make cook wear that 34 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: wasn't a huge pain in the keyster to clean. You know, 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: it's no secret even today that certain food stuffs can 36 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: be pretty messy and leave difficult stains or residue on 37 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: pots or pants. Like for instance, have you ever roasted 38 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: something and then realized, you know, I have to make 39 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: this taste great, because I'm going to spend some time 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: afterwards just scrubbing the heck out of this. 41 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: That's what tenfoil is for, my man. Yes, it's not 42 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: only for hats. 43 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: Right there we go, that's well done. 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 45 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: Tenfoil is an excellent example of how we have evolved 46 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: strategies and technologies to combat this. You know, it's not 47 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: even unfortunate, it's just an inconvenient reality of cooking. I'm 48 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: glad you brought up the ancient mice knee in Greeks 49 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: because they were aware of this residue problem. And more 50 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: than three years ago they appeared to have invented a 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: very clever type of ceramic griddle that functioned kind of 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: like non stick cooking surfaces. 53 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: But not through chemistry. It was through texture and craftsmanship, right, yeah, hellso, 54 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: so here's the deal. These griddles that they invented had 55 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: a smooth side and a side that was kind of porous, 56 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: covered with these tiny holes, and they were using it 57 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: to grill bread. And bread was probably placed on the 58 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,399 Speaker 2: side with the holes because the dough would stick if 59 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: it was a completely flat surface, and they were doomed 60 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: to spend hours scrubbing away this bread residue. But if 61 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: they had the little pores, then it would kind of 62 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: vent a little bit and it would create a surface 63 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: that the bread was less likely to stick to. Yeah. 64 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: Right, it's some pretty cool mcgiving there, and sadly it 65 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: didn't really catch on the rest of the world. Was 66 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: stuck spending hours and hours scrubbing away on ordinary pots, pans, 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: and other cooking surfaces. So in your mind, conspiracy realist, 68 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: go ahead and cue the image of a scullery maid 69 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: scraping out the bottom of a huge soup pot. 70 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: That was me last night. That was you last night. 71 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: I made some rice and rice. If you let it 72 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: go a little too longer, and you let it simmer 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: a little too longer, it becomes this like sticky, kind 74 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: of crusty layer on the bottom, yeah, that you then 75 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: have to soak and get rid of. 76 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: But the bottom, the rice crust tastes delicious, really huge 77 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: fan of it. Better Yet, let's cut past that image 78 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: of a scullery maid and go to a despairing TV 79 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: infomercial host. Let's imagine let's imagine this scullery maid at 80 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: the beginning of an infomercial, if they had those in 81 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages throwing up their hands and wailing, There's 82 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: got to. 83 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: Be a better way. There has to be right. 84 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: Here are the facts. This situation began to change in 85 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight when it kept us named. Roy Plunkett 86 00:04:53,120 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: invented something called polytetrafluoroethylene or ptfe PTFE is a type 87 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: of thing, a genre of thing known as per and 88 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: polyfluoroalcl substances or PFA's. Without going too far into the 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: weeds on the chemistry here, pfas encompass an entire family 90 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: of synthetic chemicals that have one thing in common. They 91 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: contain a carbon and fluorine atom backbone. There are hundreds 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: of these things out there, hundreds of known PFA compounds, 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: and they have varying functional groups. They can include other 94 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: elements as well, such as oxygen, hydrogen, or sulfur. Today 95 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: we call the stuff that Roy discovered teflon. Roy accidentally 96 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: invented this substance, but he quickly realized at a number 97 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: of unique properties. First, it had high corrosion resistance, meaning 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: it's less likely to degrade to rust so. 99 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: On, which is important because when you're repeatedly using this 100 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 2: cookware and you're washing it, rust is likely to develop, 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 2: exactly very important that you have some kind of safeguard 102 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:04,679 Speaker 2: against it, or else you're gonna have to keep switching 103 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: out your pots. 104 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: And this stuff also had the lowest coefficient of friction 105 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: of any substance that had ever been manufactured before. 106 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: Now, why is this important, Ben, This is interesting to me. 107 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: Because it makes it slick, you know what I mean, 108 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: things just tend not to stick to it. This this 109 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: is something that we associate with cooking today, but originally 110 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: it had a much different use. 111 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. Initially it was used to strengthen seals that would 112 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: be not seals like but seals like you know, seals 113 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: like a jar. To tighten strengthen these seals that would 114 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: be specifically exposed to uranium hexafluoride gas during the development 115 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 2: of the A bomb in World War Two. And interestingly enough, 116 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: it was considered a military secret. 117 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: So Teflon before it was called teflon, the actual substance 118 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: was top secret. It was classified the US government. Uncle 119 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: Sam and DuPont didn't want the rest of the world 120 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: to know about this technology. DuPont actually didn't register the 121 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: Teflon trademark until nineteen forty four when they began planning 122 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: for commercial applications after the end of the war. They said, 123 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, we paid our dues helping build the Adam Baum, 124 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: but that's kind of a niche market, so we probably 125 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: want to diversify. 126 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's that happens all the time with this 127 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: government stuff. It starts out for a very specific use, 128 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: and then they realize, okay, we can now let this 129 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: out to the public and make a little cash. 130 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: Make a little scratch. Yeah, so, well, scratch is probably 131 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: a poor trace of words. We're talking teflon, It's true. 132 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: By nineteen fifty one, DuPont had figured out uses for 133 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: teflon in large scale bread and cookie making. And we 134 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: say large scale bread and cookie making, what we mean 135 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: is the industrial level stuff. Yeah, you know, not mom 136 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: and pop shop base, big bread, Yeah, big cookie, big 137 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: bread and big cookie exactly. But they initially avoided marketing 138 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: teflon in consumer cookwear because they were concerned internally over 139 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: a possible health risk. They didn't really publicize this, they 140 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: just said, let's not do it yet. The credit for 141 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: the teflon revolution belongs mostly to a guy named John Gilbert. 142 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: While John Gilbert was working at DuPont, he realized, hey, 143 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: teflon can be used to coat the average pot and pan, 144 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: And just one year later there was a French engineer 145 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: who was experimenting with using teflon to coat his fishing 146 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: gear because it was so frictionless that it reduced the 147 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: likelihood of the gear tangling up interesting, and that's all 148 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: he thought about. But his wife said, hey, that looks 149 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: like it worked for fishing gear. Why don't we coat 150 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: our pots and pans and the same stuff. The idea 151 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: was a success. In nineteen fifty four, they were granted 152 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: a patent from the French government and they formed a 153 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: company called tefol tefal in nineteen fifty six. 154 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: And so nowadays there are other types of nonstick coding, 155 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: but Teflon remains the most well known. I mean, it's 156 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: a household name, and it has tons of applications from 157 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: coding cables to providing corrosion resistance to industrial equipment. But 158 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: the still most widely known use the public is aware 159 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: of is that this is the stuff that helps you 160 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: keep from having to scrub your pots and pans for 161 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: hours at a time. 162 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: Right right, there is one small problem. Not only can 163 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: this stuff be dangerous, surprisingly so, but it turns out 164 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: that the manufacturers of teflon and related substances and the 165 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: ingredients of teflon knew about the dangers. They decided the 166 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,479 Speaker 1: profits outweighed the risk, and they covered up these dangers 167 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: for at the very least decades. We'll be right back 168 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. 169 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 2: So, writing for The Intercept, journalists by the name of 170 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: Sharon Lerner exposed DuPont's multi decade cover up of what 171 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: she refers to as quote the severe harms of health 172 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: associated with a chemical known as PFOA or C eight 173 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: and associated compounds it as PFOS and gen X. Wow. Yeah, 174 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: that's a that's a serious name. 175 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: Well, there also used to be a pretty good comic 176 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: series might still be out called Generation X. Do you 177 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: remember that? 178 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 2: I don't. Oh? 179 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: Okay, well check it out if you're a Marvel fan. 180 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: For a long long time, few people in the public 181 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: had ever heard of C eight. C eight is one 182 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: of the essential ingredients in teflon. This stuff is everywhere. 183 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: It's called a surface and because it reduces the surface 184 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: tension of water. It's a slippery, very stable compound, and 185 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: it was eventually used in hundreds of products. It's in 186 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: gore tex, it's another waterproof clothing. It's a coating for eyeglasses, 187 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: for tennis rackets, it's a stain proof coating for carpets 188 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: and furniture, firefighting foam, fast food wrappers, microwave popcorn bags, 189 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: bicycle lubricants, satellite components, communication cables, ski wax, even pizza boxes, 190 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: wow and concerns about the safety of teflon. C eight 191 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,479 Speaker 1: and other things were called long chain per fluorinated chemicals 192 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: first came to the public attention more than a decade ago. 193 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: But there's a long, often untold story about DuPont's involvement 194 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: with C eight, and until Sharon Lerner investigated this in 195 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: like a nineteen part series that you can read for 196 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: free online, no one had really told this story. Over 197 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: the past fifteen years, lawyers have been waging an epic 198 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: legal battle against C eight and its manufacturers are people 199 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: who use it in products, including DuPont and three M, 200 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: which manufactures some of the substances that DuPont buys to 201 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: create teflon. This stuff culminated in a class action lawsuit 202 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: that was it's about three thy five hundred personal injury 203 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: claims that went to trial in September of twenty seventeen. 204 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: But before we get to that, and before we get 205 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: to the EPA's involvement in Uncle Sam's involvement or collusion 206 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: in this sordid tail, let's look at the kind of 207 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:48,479 Speaker 1: health effects this stuff can cause it's pretty nasty. Exposure 208 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: to these long chain per fluorinated chemicals can cause things 209 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: like ulcerative colitis, high cholesterol, hypertension, thyroid disease, testicular cancer, 210 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: kidney answer, and more. We know these aren't just rumors. 211 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, And how come you don't hear that in the 212 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: fine print for nonstick pan commercials? Right? 213 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: You just hear don't use a metal spatula, right, right, 214 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason, because you know that 215 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: teflon stuff can flake off and into your body. In 216 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: twenty eleven twenty twelve, after years of research, scientists published 217 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: more than three dozen peer reviewed articles on these effects, 218 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: and one of the most troubling parts of their findings 219 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: was that the chemicals had they affected your entire body, 220 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: not just a particular organ or system. Even very low 221 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: exposure could impact a person's health. And this stuff builds 222 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: up in your body sort of like how remember when 223 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: people concerned about eating too many specific types of fish 224 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: because of mercury. Of course, right, and that's still a 225 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: thing that should be concerning to people. This stuff was 226 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: the same way. It could build up in your body, 227 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: and it could build up in wildlife. But this was 228 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: also very old news old beans to DuPont because their 229 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: scientists had studied this chemical and related chemicals for decades 230 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: and decades, and they were very well informed about the dangers. 231 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: But instead of informing the public, instead of informing government 232 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: agencies like the EPA, instead of informing communities living near 233 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: the plants where teflon was manufactured, instead of informing their 234 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: own employees, they kept the finding secret, and they perpetrated 235 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: a remarkably successful cover up. 236 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: They absolutely did. Sadly, we can rate the cover up 237 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: success in one absolutely frightening statistic, and it is this 238 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: C eight is a man made compound. It did not 239 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: exist one hundred years ago, and now it is in 240 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: the blood of ninety nine point seven percent of Americans. 241 00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: And this is from a two thousand and seven analysis 242 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: of from the CDC. C aight is present in newborns, 243 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: breast milk, and blood from umbilical cords. It's also in 244 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: a wide range of wildlife, including loggerhead sea turtles, bottlenosed dolphins, 245 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: harbor seals, polar bears, cariboo, walras, says, bald eagles, lions, tigers, 246 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: and arctic birds. Apparently not bears. 247 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently, I'm sure, a lot of people were waiting 248 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: to hear the bears, So you could say, if you 249 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: wanted to be a little more optimistic about it, you 250 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: could say, maybe there was something wrong with the methodology 251 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: of the test, maybe the data was analyzed incorrectly, Maybe 252 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: the CDC for some reason is screwing up. But we 253 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: can assure you the odds of that are pretty low. 254 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: You could also be optimistic and say, well, hey, I 255 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: don't eat loggerhead, sea turtles, bottlenose dolphins, harbor seals, polar bears, 256 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: and so on. But this is still indicative of a 257 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: widespread problem because if it's if, if it's existing, if 258 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: it's found existing in those animals that are, you know, 259 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: maybe not even directly part of the human food chain, 260 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: you can only imagine it likely exists in animals that 261 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: are part of the human food chain, or more commonly 262 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: found in it. In their defense, DuPont no longer uses 263 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: C eight, But at this point, removing it from Earth's 264 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: environment is impossible because remember we mentioned that it's a 265 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: very chemically stable compound. As far as we know, this 266 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: stuff does not break down. This means that it will 267 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: be on the planet for a long time. It may 268 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: even outlast humanity, So millions and millions of years in 269 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: the future. If some extraterrestrial civilization exists and for some 270 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: reason visits our planet, they may not find us, but 271 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: they will find traces of our time here. And one 272 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: of the thing you say we'll find will be teflon 273 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: in everything? 274 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: Am I going to die? 275 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 3: Ben? 276 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: I cook with teflon pans all the time? Well, life 277 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: is a one way ride, Noel, Okay, that was a 278 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: broad question. Iselon killing me softly. 279 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: It does pose significant health risk. And now that the 280 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: public is more aware of this situation, this epidemic, the 281 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: government has started to take action, and private litigation has 282 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: also escalated. We'll tell you a little more about the 283 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: current situation, as well as DuPont's internal battles after a 284 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Eight companies are 285 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: responsible for eight contamination in the US. DuPont is far 286 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: and away the leader here of these eight companies in 287 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: terms of both the use of C eight and emissions 288 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: of it. But seven others were found to have a role, 289 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: including three M. Because three M, as you said, actually 290 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: manufactured C eight or produced it and sold it to 291 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: DuPont for years while they were also very likely aware 292 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: of the dangers from the very beginning. DuPont scientists approached 293 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: ATE's potential dangers with a pretty high bar of rigor, 294 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: and they studied it closely. Way back in nineteen fifty four, 295 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: there was a DuPont employee named ra A. Dickinson who 296 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: noted that he had received an inquiry regarding CH's quote 297 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: possible toxicity. 298 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then in nineteen sixty one, just seven years later, 299 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: in house researchers already had the short answer to Dickinson's question. 300 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: C eight was indeed toxic and should be quote handled 301 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: with extreme care, like not slathered on household goods. Right. 302 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: By the next year, what did we say, they're sixty 303 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: one by yea. By nineteen sixty two, experiments had whittled 304 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: down these broad concerns into some red flags, and they 305 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: found some specific conditions caused by C eight. Exposure to 306 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: C eight was linked to the enlargement of rat testicles, 307 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: adrenal glands, and kidneys. The company even, at least in 308 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: one instance that we know of, the company even conducted 309 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: human experimentation with C eight. In nineteen sixty two, scientists 310 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: asked volunteers to smoke cigarettes laced with C eight and 311 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: they found that nice, well, at least they asked them 312 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: to do it. They found that nine out of ten 313 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: people in the highest dose group were noticeably significantly ill 314 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: for an average of nine hours, so as much as eighteen, 315 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: you know, and they have flu like symptoms that included chills, back, ache, fever, 316 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: and coughing. We don't know if they did a follow 317 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: up study years later to see the rates of cancer, 318 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: but we do know that this cover up then encompasses 319 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: more than just teflon, because remember, Teflon is a brand 320 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,239 Speaker 1: name for something that is a type of PFA, and 321 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: pfas are used in so many things we mentioned, the 322 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: microwave popcorn, the firefighting foam, fast food wrappers, industrial processes. 323 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: They have been proven to have clear and harmful effects 324 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: on human beings and wildlife, and as we record this episode, scientists, attorneys, 325 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: and public interest groups are still working to figure out 326 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: the sheer scale of the contamination as well as the 327 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: extent of danger this poses to humans and wildlife. Like 328 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: here's an example. They DuPont used to get rid of 329 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: these substances by putting them in barrels and putting rocks 330 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: putting rocks in the barrels or waiting the barrels somehow 331 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: and then just dropping them in the ocean or dropping 332 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: them with water sources. So that means that there are. 333 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 2: There are areas of. 334 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: The world where the groundwater has been contaminated with this stuff. 335 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: And we don't. When I say we, I don't just 336 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: mean DuPont or the US or anything. I mean our 337 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: species hasn't figured out how to get this stuff out. 338 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so even if that seems to be a kind 339 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 2: of a common issue, doesn't that we're real good at 340 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: putting stuff in, haven't quite feared how to put stuff out. 341 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: We're all Mickey Mouse at the beginning of Fantasia, remember 342 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: when he figures out that excellent way to mop up 343 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: when he's the source of apprentice and he starts making mops, 344 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: but they make mops and then the flood begins. 345 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: You know, But never that ever occurred to me. That 346 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: is a very good analogy, metaphor what have you, for 347 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: the exact kind of stuff we're talking about. The kid 348 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 2: put the magic back in the bucket, right right exactly. 349 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: I actually went to a talk recently. It was a 350 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 2: weird pairing. It was Jaden Smith interviewing al Gore about 351 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: climate change, and something came up at the end where 352 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 2: Jayden asked al Gore, like, so, what technology in the 353 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 2: future is there to pull these emissions out of the atmosphere. 354 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 2: And the fact of the matter is that there's something 355 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: that sort of exists, but it requires so much energy 356 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 2: to do it that it makes it not really cost 357 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 2: effective or just practical at all. So, I mean, I 358 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: guess people are thinking about this kind of stuff, but 359 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 2: it's like it usually is so much more of a 360 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: of a to do than just to maybe do a 361 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: better job of not putting the stuff in there in 362 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 2: the first. 363 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: Place, right, right, And this goes beyond, this goes beyond politics. 364 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: This is just a health concern. And I know some 365 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: of us in the audience may may object to the 366 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: alarmism that gets so commonly, you know, spread about in 367 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: the public sphere when we talk about these global or 368 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: macro level human threats. But the reality of the situation now, 369 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: at least just my opinion, the reality is the situation 370 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: now is the following. The Earth does not need humanity. 371 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: Life on Earth in some form will likely continue for 372 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: a long long time. Human life on Earth is not 373 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: a sure thing. And you know, it's not as if 374 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: Earth itself really has an opinion or cares. We are 375 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: just one in a long line of dominant species that 376 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: have come and gone on this little rock orbiting the Sun, 377 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: and the third one right right. And this means that 378 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: the most significant race or challenge for the human species 379 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: now is going to be technological innovation versus increasingly inhospitable 380 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: natural environments. 381 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: So are we going. 382 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: To survive as a species, you know, off planet living 383 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: in domes? There are a lot of optimistic futurists who 384 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: would say yes, Like that Polyshor movie Biodome, Biodome, there 385 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: wasn't a Baldwin into that. 386 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 2: There was definitely a Baldin in that. 387 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: I you know, that's one of those films that I 388 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: think I enjoyed when I was a kid, and I 389 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: think I'm just gonna leave it there. I don't know 390 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: if I don't know if I should rewatch it. 391 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 2: I think not. 392 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's aged well, I doubt that 393 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: it has. What was the other one with the caveman, 394 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: Prisino Man, Brenda and Frasier. We's in the JITs, that's right. 395 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll watch that one. 396 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: No, you shouldn't. You know what I did the other 397 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: night I watched Phantom Menace again for the first time 398 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 2: in a long time. That movie is problematic on many levels. 399 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 2: Let me tell you, is that what we chargearbeings That 400 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: one that is a racial caricature, but there's a bunch 401 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: of other ones. There's like the Trade Federation. Guys. We're 402 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: kind of like these very cliche, almost like Asian caricatures, 403 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: and there's just tons of them. Not to mention the 404 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: right is quite hackneyed. 405 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's it's strange. I read this has nothing 406 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: to do with anything, certainly not the fate of the planet. 407 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: But I've had a minute kind of had to do 408 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: with the fate of the planet a planet. 409 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 410 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: But but. 411 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: There is a very interesting fan theory that initially I dismissed, 412 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: and it argues that in the initial stages of planning 413 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: for Phantom Menace and the movies at that would come after, 414 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: George R. Binks was supposed to be like a low 415 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: key sith lord and then later exposed as a sith lord. 416 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 2: Oh wow, it's. 417 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,239 Speaker 1: Again, it's a fan theory. I haven't seen anything that 418 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: made that counted as smoking gun level evidence. 419 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: This is evil sith power just to like annoy you 420 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 2: to death. 421 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because he shows remarkable agility in some areas. 422 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: I don't you'll have you'll have to read. I'm sure 423 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: it's available on cracked or one of the other one 424 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: of the other popular fan theory analysis sites. But back 425 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: to the back to the Teflon menace. For lack of 426 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: a better term, in February of this year of twenty eighteen, 427 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: three MS settled a lawsuit with Minnesota for eight hundred 428 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: and fifty million dollars in essence admitting, according to Shannon Lerner, 429 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: that they acted with a deliberate disregard for the high 430 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: risk of injury to the citizens and wildlife of Minnesota. 431 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: And they they went for this settlement eight hundred and 432 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars. It's not going to put them in 433 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: the poorhouse, but it is a significant chunk of change. 434 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: They went for the settlement because the Minnesota Attorney General's 435 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: office released a huge set of documents, internal studies by 436 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: scientists at THREEM, memos, emails, and research reports that detailed 437 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: what THREEM knew about the harmful potential of these chemicals 438 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: right now, right now, there's probably already at least according 439 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: to the CDC, some kind of PFA in your system, 440 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: in your body as you hear this, unless what point 441 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: three percent of the population. And one of the one 442 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: of the most widely acknowledged possible dangers of teflon, and 443 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,719 Speaker 1: this was acknowledged publicly way before the lawsuits began, is 444 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: that if you have a teflon pan and you overheat 445 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: it to about six hundred degrees fahrenheit, it will it 446 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: could release toxic gases. But again, that didn't seem like 447 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: too much of a concern because very few people cook 448 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: stuff at six hundred degrees That's true. Here's a question 449 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: for you to leave us with. What's the alternative is? 450 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: You know, I have some non nonstick pans. 451 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 2: They are a bit of a pain in the butt 452 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: when you cook certain things on them. But typically when 453 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: you're watching like cooking shows and like chefs and stuff 454 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: and high level cooks, they're not really using nonstick pans 455 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: all the time. They're using like copper pans and like 456 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: nicer stainless steel pans, right or le Crouse exactly. So 457 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: what's the what's the difference and what and is it? 458 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: Is it literally just a matter of well you might 459 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: have to pre soak them a little longer, take better 460 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: care of them. Yeah. 461 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: There are some manufacturers of nonstick pans that are advertised 462 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: as non toxic. So one example would be something like Willing, 463 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: which is just the word Willing with a Z. 464 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 4: They're a German. 465 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: Company that made that made their name I believe in knives, 466 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: but they use a lot of They also manufacture a 467 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: lot of ceramic nonstick cookware. And then there's a thing 468 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: called green Pan. They use something called thermalon. It's a 469 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: patented ceramic nonstick layer that's made out of sand. Essentially, 470 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't have lead or cadmium or pfas or PFOA 471 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: or all the other stuff. And the problem with that 472 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: stuff is it's heat resistant up to four hund and 473 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: fifty degrees cells, meaning that it won't release toxic fumes 474 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: unless you heat it past that. You can find other alternatives, 475 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: several of them are higher end, so they're going to 476 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: be more of an investment. But for their part, DuPont 477 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: has instituted some other substances to replace C eight because, 478 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: as we said, they no longer use that and the 479 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: EPA has been involved. It says it remains committed to 480 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: evaluating PFOA and PFOS under the regulatory determination process using 481 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: the best available science. As part of their evaluation, they 482 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: are going to be reviewing all newly available scientific info, 483 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: including the report by the ATSDR, the Agency for Toxic 484 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: Substances and Disease Registry. They also said they are taking 485 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: steps to accelerate quote the determination process before for the 486 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: existing statutory deadline, which is twenty twenty one, So in 487 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: a few years this stuff will change. But maybe the 488 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: last thing we should end on here is as of 489 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: November twenty eighteen, the EPA also found that the chemicals 490 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: manufacturers used to replace these original toxic substances like C eight, 491 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,479 Speaker 1: were themselves toxic, so they replaced it with a different 492 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: with a different dangerous chemical. That's where we're at now. 493 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: Oh cool, slightly lesser of the two evils. 494 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: It's I believe it's gen x is one of the 495 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: ones that they said was still dangerous, but hopefully yeah, 496 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: is it is slightly lesser. And look, we're we're not 497 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: saying that if you use a nonstick pan you are 498 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: going to die. We're saying that exposure to the substances 499 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: used to make teflon are are quite dangerous and a 500 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: lot of the a lot of the lawsuits came about 501 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: from former DuPont employees or employee of the manufacturers of 502 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: these substances, or people living near the plants or disposal sites. 503 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: So it's not Cooking with a non stick pan is 504 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: not the same thing as just huffing straight pfoas. 505 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: Oh good, So there's that right, cool. Yeah, that's comforting. 506 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: And if you would like to read the full series 507 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: on the intercept, I want to tell you that it 508 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: is excellent. It is very thorough. It's quite long. It's 509 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: a long greed, but it's worth your time if you 510 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: would like to learn more about how this successful cover up, 511 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: this successful corporate conspiracy to disguise the health risk of 512 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: these substances actually evolved and developed over time, as well 513 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: as where it is at currently. Thank you so much 514 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: for checking out our show. Let us know what you 515 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: think is this is this situation wherein a large company 516 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: just wasn't aware of the science. Is this being exaggerated 517 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: by alarmist interest groups or is there a real and 518 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: genuine threat and if so, why or why not you 519 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Facebook, 520 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. We'd especially like to 521 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: recommend Here's where it gets crazy, our community Facebook page 522 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: where you can hang out with your fellow conspiracy realist 523 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: and you know, see some funny memes. 524 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been known to lurk. We have, indeed, Yes, 525 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: so do all this. 526 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 3: And that's the end of this classic episode. 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