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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camra.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology with

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Speaker 1: text Stuff from houstuff works dot com. This podcast is

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Speaker 1: consider is The Singularity Is Near When Humans Transcend Biology

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Speaker 1: by Ray kirtzwil Churtswaile explores a future where man and

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Speaker 1: machine are one and the same. Text Stuff is fascinated

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Speaker 1: by the idea of singularity, and this is a great

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Speaker 1: book to learn more about it. The Singularity Is Near

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Speaker 1: When Humans Transcend Biology by Ray kirtzwild available from Audible.

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Speaker 1: audiobook of your choice. Get to an Audible podcast dot

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Speaker 1: com slash tech Stuff. That's Audible podcast dot com slash

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Speaker 1: tech Stuff. Hello everyone, and welcome to tech Stuff. My

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Speaker 1: name is Chris Poulette and I am an editor at

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Sitting across from me as

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Speaker 1: always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland. It was the best

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Speaker 1: of times, it was the worst of times. It was

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Speaker 1: the age of wisdom. It was the age of foolishness.

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Speaker 1: It was the epic of belief. It was the epoch

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Speaker 1: of incredulity. It was the season of light. It was

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Speaker 1: the season of darkness. It was the spring of hope.

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Speaker 1: It was the winter of despair. And if you know

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Speaker 1: where the dickens he came up with that one, let

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Speaker 1: us know the way to go. It ain't Shakespeare, it isn't. Today.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to talk about a subject that was a

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Speaker 1: suggestion from one of our sister podcasts, Yes Indeed Stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom never told you we gotta We got a tweet

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Speaker 1: from Sminty and Sminty said, hey, maybe you guys should

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Speaker 1: do a podcast about this, and it was about a

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Speaker 1: digital divide, a new kind of digital divide, and really

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Speaker 1: to talk about what this is, I think we need

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Speaker 1: to go back a bit and just sort of talk

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Speaker 1: about the concept of the digital divide to begin with,

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Speaker 1: to explain like what the idea that the historical idea

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Speaker 1: of the digital divide versus what we currently are looking

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Speaker 1: at now. Yeah, yeah, this goes back quite some time. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, at least to the sixteenth century. No, I'm kidding, UM,

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Speaker 1: and it's really not nothing to get about frankly. Um,

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Speaker 1: Basically we're talking about access to electronic tools, probably most

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Speaker 1: specifically used in my experience reading about it in educational terms,

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Speaker 1: whether people have access to electronic uh devices most again,

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Speaker 1: most usually computers for educational purposes. UM. I think in

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Speaker 1: the last few years it's grown to include, um, the Internet,

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Speaker 1: Internet access as well, and that that sort of ties

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Speaker 1: into a theme that we've mentioned a couple of times

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Speaker 1: recently because people have been talking about why their access

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Speaker 1: to the Internet is right or privilege. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: the digital divide, when you hear people talk about it,

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Speaker 1: it's basically saying, uh, there are people who are halves

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Speaker 1: and who are have not in terms of computer access

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Speaker 1: to computers for educational purposes. Right. Craig Warren Smith, who

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Speaker 1: is the founder of the Digital Divide Institute, defines it

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Speaker 1: this way. Says that it refers to the gap between

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Speaker 1: those who can benefit from digital technology and those who cannot.

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Speaker 1: And that's important because benefiting from technology is different from

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Speaker 1: having access to it. That's true because you can have

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Speaker 1: access to technology and see no benefit from it. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, at the Digital Divide Institute, he goes on

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Speaker 1: further to express some concerns about how throwing technology at

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Speaker 1: people is not a solution to bridging the digital divide,

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Speaker 1: because if it has no application in that person's life,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be no benefit from that technology. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, depending upon how that technology is used by

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Speaker 1: the person who receives it, it could end up harming

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Speaker 1: that population rather than helping it. And here's an example

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Speaker 1: that he gives. He says, all right, imagine that you

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Speaker 1: go into a very poor community in UH, perhaps in

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Speaker 1: a developing country, like a developing world country. So you

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Speaker 1: go into this country and you go to this poor

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Speaker 1: community where they have very little infrastructure, very little access

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Speaker 1: to technology, and then you do this whole low price

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Speaker 1: laptop per child UH initiative, and you give all the

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Speaker 1: kids laptops, but they don't really have the infrastructure there,

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Speaker 1: and the laptops themselves, even though the laptops were designed

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Speaker 1: to be low cost items, most of the things that

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Speaker 1: we access through our our computers tend to be targeted

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Speaker 1: towards a fairly affluent demographic. I mean, it's it's well,

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Speaker 1: there's no way of getting around it. The stuff on

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Speaker 1: the Internet that we tend to go and look at

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Speaker 1: seems to be geared towards people who have money to spend,

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Speaker 1: and it's just that it's the way the business works

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Speaker 1: because it's not just a it's not like it's a

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Speaker 1: public entity. It's this collection of private entities and public

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Speaker 1: entities altogether. Right, So if you give these kids these laptops,

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Speaker 1: it may turn out that they cannot use the laptops

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Speaker 1: for what we would hope they would use them for,

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Speaker 1: because they just don't have the infrastructure there, they don't

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Speaker 1: have the education there. So instead they start playing violent

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Speaker 1: video games, and that's what they end up getting. It.

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Speaker 1: They really enjoy playing the games. It's great escapism for them,

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Speaker 1: but it takes away the time that they could have

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Speaker 1: been using towards education and empowerment and instead have them

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Speaker 1: focusing on entertainment, which, if taken to extremes, could end

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Speaker 1: up hurting them. Not that the violent video games themselves

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Speaker 1: are going to cause the kids to be violent, but

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Speaker 1: that their focus has been taken away from from well

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Speaker 1: in powerment. That's that's the best phrase to use. Really,

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Speaker 1: So what you're saying is, uh, well, games could be

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Speaker 1: useful in balance as far as in terms of entertainment. Um,

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Speaker 1: they could also be taking the place of the intended

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Speaker 1: purpose of providing these kids with technology, which is education.

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Speaker 1: Right if they're if they're the rest of the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: is not there and the and the education is not there,

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Speaker 1: then there may not be any uh any any ability

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Speaker 1: for the kid, Like even if the kid wanted to

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Speaker 1: use their their laptop two research something or learn about something,

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Speaker 1: if the rest of the infrastructure is not there, they

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Speaker 1: may not be able to do that. So that that

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Speaker 1: was the kind of example that Craig Warren Smith was

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Speaker 1: giving in his on his website. Now. Um, but there

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Speaker 1: is still also a much simpler way of looking at

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Speaker 1: the digital divide, which is just saying people who have

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Speaker 1: access in people who don't. I mean there, that's it's

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Speaker 1: a very clear divide there. So we're talking here things

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Speaker 1: like ideas like broadband penetration, and we've talked about this

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Speaker 1: in the podcast in the past as well. I believe

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Speaker 1: I could. I was actually trying to find the the episode.

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Speaker 1: I know it's one of our older ones, but I

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Speaker 1: remember we specifically we're talking about some of the countries

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Speaker 1: that have the best broadband penetration versus others, and the

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Speaker 1: United States tends to be in the teens like usually

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Speaker 1: like sixteen or seventeenth place for broadband penetration. Pretty good,

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Speaker 1: but not the best. And for people who are from

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Speaker 1: the United States and who know that the Internet really

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Speaker 1: got its start here in the United States, it seems

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Speaker 1: a little unusual to think that the U s would

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Speaker 1: be so comparatively low if there if the country was

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Speaker 1: exactly you know, the place, the birthplace of the Internet.

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Speaker 1: But the the simple fact is the US is a

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Speaker 1: really big country and populations are spread very far apart.

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Speaker 1: So building out an infrastructure where you can have broadband

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Speaker 1: access across the board through the entire population is an

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Speaker 1: incredibly challengeing uh task. We remember we mentioned in Canada

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Speaker 1: the broadband penetration. There the challenge. Even though Canada is

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Speaker 1: a big country, it's not it's not as difficult to

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Speaker 1: reach the majority of the population in Canada because most

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Speaker 1: of them live in the southern half of the country.

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Speaker 1: Now there are people who live in the northern half

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Speaker 1: of the country and a lot of them don't have broadband,

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Speaker 1: and it would be very challenging to get the broadband

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Speaker 1: to them. But because the majority of the populations in

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Speaker 1: the southern half, you would be able to hit the

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Speaker 1: majority of the population more easily than say, in the

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Speaker 1: United States, where you've got some pretty spread out communities,

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Speaker 1: especially in places out out west, so east of California,

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Speaker 1: but west of pretty much everywhere else. Um, so that

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Speaker 1: that is a real problem. And you were talking about

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Speaker 1: the just the the lack of access, uh. And then

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Speaker 1: once you get the access there, then you have other

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Speaker 1: issues that pop up. And that's kind of what leads

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Speaker 1: us into the uh the article that was said to

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Speaker 1: us from Sminty Well, Um, yeah, and the arguments that

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Speaker 1: you see, uh, you know, they're there a number of reasons. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's not completely geographical, but that is

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Speaker 1: an important distinction because, um, yes, there are people who

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Speaker 1: simply cannot afford uh the electronic resources that would would

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Speaker 1: make it possible for them to get online. Right, So

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Speaker 1: they're economic barriers geographic barriers. There's also depending on I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so many surveys out there that examine who has

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Speaker 1: access to technology and what demographics they belong to. And

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Speaker 1: there are some interesting divides. Age can play a factor, gender, race,

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Speaker 1: your education background, all this sort of stuff can can

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Speaker 1: play into the whole digital divide issue. And also, um,

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Speaker 1: how you access the internet or how you know you

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Speaker 1: even if you have access, how you access it can

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Speaker 1: play a big part. So, uh yeah, it's a very

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Speaker 1: complicated issue. And if you are ever interested in in

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Speaker 1: testing this sort of stuff, like doing surveys and trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, where does this digital divide

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Speaker 1: really stem from, it's incredibly challenging because you have to

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Speaker 1: control for so many different variables that to test a

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Speaker 1: specific variable is very very difficult. Now is it is

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Speaker 1: it the person's age that plays more of a role

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, or is it their race or

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Speaker 1: their gender? I mean all these sort of things. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have to you have to do lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of different studies to kind of whittle this down. And

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Speaker 1: even then you wouldn't necessarily find a cause. You might

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Speaker 1: just be able to identify general trends and that that

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Speaker 1: can give you a useful information, but ultimately it may

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Speaker 1: not give you the solution, right, It just tells you.

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Speaker 1: It gives you more information about what's happening, But doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily give you a way of solving the problem. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: one thing that has gone there there's many things that

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Speaker 1: are are factors in reducing the digital divide. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think after it was first identified, and I would argue

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Speaker 1: probably about the mid ninety nineties, actually there was a

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Speaker 1: big deal in some of the political discussions, especially in

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Speaker 1: the mid to late nineties, so much so that there

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Speaker 1: were some I actually have read articles that came out

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Speaker 1: in opposition to the rhetoric saying that the arguments about

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Speaker 1: the digital divide were kind of overblown and that more

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Speaker 1: people had access than what was commonly believed, and that

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Speaker 1: the divide was, although present, not as as big a

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Speaker 1: deal as was being made in the political arena in

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Speaker 1: the late nineties. Um. Yeah, the probably the price of

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Speaker 1: computers has dropped significantly since. Uh, the the arguments have

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Speaker 1: been were first poised to the to the group actually

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Speaker 1: meant posed, but we'll skip that. Um. Um. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there are things that have gone that are

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Speaker 1: they're helping somewhat. Um. You know that that's one of them. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know. Another is that computers are penetrating more places

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Speaker 1: where people can use them. They're more common in schools. Now, Um,

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Speaker 1: they're certainly more common in public libraries here in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Um, that doesn't solve the digital divide, but

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Speaker 1: it helps somewhat and another another venue for the Internet,

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Speaker 1: and that actually plays into the article that that Sminty

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Speaker 1: sent us was, uh, the the availability of uh the

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Speaker 1: Internet via smartphones and other portable devices, which of course

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Speaker 1: we've talked about many times here on tech stuff because

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Speaker 1: uh mobile computing of all kinds uh tablets, UM, smartphones

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of other devices, you know, mobile cards

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Speaker 1: for your laptop. Uh. That's it's become very very popular

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Speaker 1: in the last few years. And that's where um, people

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Speaker 1: who are who may not be able to afford computers,

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Speaker 1: they might be able to afford a smartphone here in

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Speaker 1: the United States through deep discounts on on fountains. When

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Speaker 1: a carrier will offer make an offer special offer, right

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Speaker 1: you you sign up for a two year deal and

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Speaker 1: then you get your phone for you know, fifty bucks

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Speaker 1: or maybe even free, depending on the I mean the

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Speaker 1: phone I have right in front of me, I got

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Speaker 1: on a special day where I renewed my contract and

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Speaker 1: I got the phone for free. So yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's it's at least the initial cost of purchasing it

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Speaker 1: is lower. Ultimately, if you go through the life of

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Speaker 1: a computer, um, and it's and and you know you've

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Speaker 1: got a decent carrier. There's there's a lot of I

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Speaker 1: s p s out there, right, I mean there's there's

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Speaker 1: big they're big i sp s, and there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of smaller ones where in some markets you've got

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Speaker 1: at least a little bit of choice, not not as

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Speaker 1: much as I would like. And there I have lived

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Speaker 1: in markets where really there was no choice. You know,

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Speaker 1: you either had UM either well neither y Max, or

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Speaker 1: you had you had a specific cable company depending on

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Speaker 1: where you were in the in the area. Right. But

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Speaker 1: but if you can shop around, you might be able

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Speaker 1: to find a data plan for through a cable company

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Speaker 1: or through Ymax or what or LTE or whatever that

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Speaker 1: ends up being UM less than a full cell plan

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Speaker 1: on a smartphone. Uh So, it all depends on if

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Speaker 1: you're looking at the lifetime of the device or the

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Speaker 1: initial purchase price. But it's it's impossible to deny I

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Speaker 1: mean initial purchase price. The smartphone is the way to

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Speaker 1: go if you're on the budget, because they are less

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Speaker 1: expensive and they're often subsidized, so it makes it even

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Speaker 1: you know, might even be free once you sign a

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Speaker 1: way the two years that you'll be stuck with that phone. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that's yeah. So let's let's talk about this article

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Speaker 1: that was sent to us. So it's called how Big

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Speaker 1: Telecom used smartphones to create a new Digital Divide, and

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Speaker 1: it was published on color lines dot com. And uh,

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting article. Um, I think I think first

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Speaker 1: of all, Uh, Chris and I both feel a little

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Speaker 1: uneasy about the the headline because the way the headline,

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Speaker 1: to me, perhaps I shouldn't speak for you, Chris, I'm

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Speaker 1: a little uneasy about the headline. The headline says, you know,

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Speaker 1: how big telecom used smartphones to create a new digital divide.

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Speaker 1: To me, that implies there was a motivation behind that,

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Speaker 1: like like that was the purpose of the They purposefully

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Speaker 1: tried to create a new digital divide. I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not willing to go so far as to suggest that.

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Speaker 1: I would say that what the telecom companies have done

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Speaker 1: has created a new digital divide, But that wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: the intent. It's just that there's there's no reason for

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Speaker 1: them not to do it. Yeah, it's it's from their perspective,

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Speaker 1: I should say, right, right, Um, the author Jamala King. Um, basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, through the through the article. I think the

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Speaker 1: article was was fairly well written, very well written, very

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Speaker 1: well researched. Yes, I agree with that completely. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think basically, uh yeah, I mean the thing to note is,

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Speaker 1: I think it's not that the companies are acting personally.

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Speaker 1: I think that they're acting completely impersonally. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's an amoral approach, not an immoral approach, although some

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Speaker 1: of I'm sure if you were looking at this from

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Speaker 1: a different perspective, you could say that some of the

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Speaker 1: actions that have been carried out have been immoral. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the intent behind it was amoral because it was really,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is the move this company needs to

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Speaker 1: make in order to make more profit. So it's not

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Speaker 1: like it's you know, it's it's not the wealthy tycoon

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Speaker 1: sitting behind the desk twirling his mustache and laughing, you know,

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Speaker 1: doing his maniacal laugh over and over. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: what the article actually says and so so the listeners

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Speaker 1: who haven't read it yet might might understand. Um. One

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Speaker 1: of the points that King makes in the article is

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Speaker 1: that UH, in the United States, smartphone usage is up

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Speaker 1: among groups that are traditionally on UH for for some reasons,

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Speaker 1: mostly economic reasons. I would I would say, um are

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Speaker 1: maybe on the other side of the digital divide in

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Speaker 1: this case, uh, the black and Hispanic populations. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: among among blacks and Latinos, we're seeing smartphone rise. Smartphone

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Speaker 1: use rise much more rapidly to access the Internet via smartphone, yeah,

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Speaker 1: compared to the white population. So uh, it's not that

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Speaker 1: that that white folks aren't, you know, accessing the Internet

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Speaker 1: via smartphone. It's just that they still are accessing there.

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Speaker 1: They tend to access it through broadband connects more frequently

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Speaker 1: than Blacks and Latinos do. Blacks and Latinos tend to

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Speaker 1: use mobile devices on mobile carriers more frequently than the

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Speaker 1: whites do. And the reason why this is a digital

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Speaker 1: divide issue is because the if you are on a

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Speaker 1: broadband I s P, that I s P is governed

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Speaker 1: by certain regulations set up by the f c C

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Speaker 1: about net neutrality. And if you've heard us talk about

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Speaker 1: net neutrality before, you kind of have an idea about this.

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Speaker 1: But in general, the idea behind net neutrality is that

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Speaker 1: person who accesses the Internet should have an expectation that

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Speaker 1: they are able to access everything that's on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: just as if they were on any other I s

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Speaker 1: p They shouldn't have a different experience if they're on

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Speaker 1: I s P A than they would if they were

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Speaker 1: on I s p B, apart from you know, the

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Speaker 1: regular differences of how fast that that particular infrastructure is.

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Speaker 1: But I s p A would not be able to

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Speaker 1: block certain sites that belong to some other company or

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Speaker 1: throttle traffic to certain sites just to discourage people from

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Speaker 1: going to one set instead of another set. You know,

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Speaker 1: none of that is supposed to happen. So let's say

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Speaker 1: that I'm on I s P A and I want

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Speaker 1: to access how stuff Works dot com. But how stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com for some reason, has been targeted by

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Speaker 1: I s p A as saying, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: would much rather if they went to this other website.

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Speaker 1: So what I'm gonna do is I'm going to put

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Speaker 1: an artificial barrier in the way so that anytime you

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Speaker 1: try to go to how stuff works dot Com, you

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Speaker 1: just it just loads, takes forever to load. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's even on the fastest connection. For some reason, but

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Speaker 1: if you go to this other website which is helpfully

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Speaker 1: linked to on your I S P S homepage, it's

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Speaker 1: blazing fast. That would be a problem, and that's something

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Speaker 1: the FCC says, no, no, no, you cannot do that.

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Speaker 1: So if you are accessing the Internet through a broadband connection,

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Speaker 1: then you are at least in theory, having an unfilled

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Speaker 1: for the most part experience. It's not that case with

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Speaker 1: mobile devices because when those regulations were finally decided upon

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Speaker 1: in this took years and years to put together and

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Speaker 1: put into action, But when they were finally put into place,

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Speaker 1: mobile was conspicuously absent from that, in fact, to the

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Speaker 1: point where there were there were even some mentions about

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Speaker 1: that whenever when the regulations went up about how the

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Speaker 1: mobile companies had argued that this sort of approach would

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Speaker 1: hamper hamper them, it would hinder their ability to do business,

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Speaker 1: and therefore they should not be put to the same

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Speaker 1: standards as broadband and part of these uh as talking

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Speaker 1: about the the broadband ones and information based approach, and

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Speaker 1: mobile is supposedly a communications based approach, one that means

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Speaker 1: own at the very you know, into the line, if

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Speaker 1: you want to just cut to the chase is that

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Speaker 1: the mobile companies can can mess with you. I mean

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Speaker 1: if they there's nothing, there's no regulation that says they cannot. Uh,

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Speaker 1: inspired you encourage you to go to one set of

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Speaker 1: sights versus another, or even block content. Uh. There was

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Speaker 1: a mention within the article that we read that there

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Speaker 1: was a case where a carrier did block text messages

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Speaker 1: from one company out to customers across it's it's a

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Speaker 1: customer base. It blocked those messages, saying that that was

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Speaker 1: the company had a stance against this controversial topic, meaning

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Speaker 1: that the customers themselves had no say in it. They

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Speaker 1: just didn't get the messages. And so there are no

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Speaker 1: regulations that prevent that. You know, it's a private company censorship.

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Speaker 1: Private company doesn't matter, it's not a government body, So

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Speaker 1: they can they can do that, and since the regulations

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Speaker 1: don't cover the mobile companies, there's nothing standing in the way.

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Speaker 1: And this this is the basis or one of the

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Speaker 1: the I guess foundations for the argument about the new

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Speaker 1: digital divide. If you have populations that are primarily accessing

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Speaker 1: the Internet through mobile devices, and these carriers that that

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Speaker 1: service these mobile devices are unregulated in any way, the

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Speaker 1: experience they have by definition, is going to be different

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Speaker 1: from people who use broadband. Yeah, yeah, well that's yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's really the point there. There are

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Speaker 1: populations that are relying on smartphones to get access and

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Speaker 1: because the companies are are un you know, are are

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Speaker 1: free to do as they please as far as filtering

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Speaker 1: content and censoring content, then that u means that people

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Speaker 1: who might be reliant on uh there these providers to

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Speaker 1: get to the internet means that they are um unable

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Speaker 1: to get access freely to that information and therefore, um

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Speaker 1: they are hampered by by the way they are able

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Speaker 1: to get online. So again, that's the the argument that

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Speaker 1: we said at the beginning about how the digital digital divide. Man,

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Speaker 1: I just can't say digital today the digital divide. Thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: we pick this is our topic that that it's the

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Speaker 1: benefit of technology that creates the divide, not just the

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Speaker 1: access to it. Because again you could say, well, look,

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Speaker 1: I mean that smartphones are everywhere, look how popular they are.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but if you if you cannot access all

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Speaker 1: the information, then there is a divide there. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of the definition. It's It's funny because in talking this through, um,

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Speaker 1: I would argue that maybe our initial criticism of the

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Speaker 1: headline might be softened a bit because the carriers are

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Speaker 1: in fact doing that part of it on purpose. They're

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Speaker 1: not creating the digital divide on purpose, but they are

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Speaker 1: actively choosing what is and what is not accessible on

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Speaker 1: their networks by their subscribers, no matter what their ethnic,

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Speaker 1: or financial or religious backgrounds are. It's just that they're

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Speaker 1: they're not targeting specific populations though. No, well, that's that's

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Speaker 1: part of the problem, is that when and again maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe it's because maybe I shouldn't say the headline implied that,

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Speaker 1: I'll say I inferred it from the headline. I'll put

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Speaker 1: it on me. However, another point made in the article

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Speaker 1: was that, um, the advertising used by the providers, they've

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Speaker 1: they've caught on to the fact that, um, there is

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Speaker 1: a wealth of diversity in the in the customer base

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Speaker 1: that they are reaching out to, and they are saying that, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter who you are, you can

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Speaker 1: use our services, and it makes it more welcoming to

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Speaker 1: people who may uh realize that, um, this may be

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Speaker 1: the best way for them to get internet access. UM.

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Speaker 1: So you know, but I still don't think that they

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Speaker 1: are intentionally trying to drive a wedge between segments of

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Speaker 1: the population in terms of Internet access. Now they're trying

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Speaker 1: to maximize profits, which if if maximizing profits meant bringing

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Speaker 1: populations together, that's exactly what they would be doing. So again,

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Speaker 1: it's that amoral approach. It's that it when they identify

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Speaker 1: a pathway that's going to end up making them lots

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Speaker 1: of money, that's the pathway they're going to take. So

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Speaker 1: but another point that was made, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a legitimate one, is that there's certain tasks

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Speaker 1: that you can do on the Internet that are harder

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Speaker 1: to do if you're doing it through a mobile device. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I agree with that. So for example, if you are

430
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: job hunting and you want to fill out a job

431
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: application online, it is much easier to do that on

432
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: a computer that is on a smartphone. And as miss

433
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, as King points out in the article is uh,

434
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: many companies are requiring online access to fill out an application. Um.

435
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: And uh. You know, of course in some cases, UM,

436
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: I have seen terminals in stores used specifically for that purpose.

437
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: So if you want to work at a retail store

438
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: and some of the companies mentioned and there are retail institutions,

439
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: you can walk into a location and actually fill out

440
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: the online application online now here. Again, if you don't

441
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: have access to technology, you may be less familiar with

442
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: the skills needed to fill out an application on the computer. Um.

443
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: That's another digital divide issue. If you don't know how

444
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: to use a computer very well and you're asked, you know,

445
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: they say, yeah, sure you can, you can fill out

446
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: an application. Feel free walk over here and use the computer.

447
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: I'll be over here. You know. Well, I don't want

448
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: to look like I don't know what I'm doing, so

449
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go, you know, take a stab at this. Um.

450
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: You know, when you go in for a job at

451
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: interviewer application of course. Uh you know. I was always

452
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: told during the application process you want to create a

453
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: positive impression. So somebody might be who who is less

454
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: familiar with computers might be reluctant to go, hey, you

455
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: know what, I really don't know how to use a

456
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: computer very well. I've only done it a handful of times.

457
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I know what I'm doing. UM. You

458
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: know you I personally would be uh concerned about that. Um,

459
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: you know, a little reticent to go hey, you know

460
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what I'm doing and have

461
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: and worry about the person who is helping me judging me,

462
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: you know. Um, So you know that's a that's a

463
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 1: serious issue. If you're trying to find work and the

464
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: only way you can fill out an application is online. Um,

465
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: you might go to the library or it's it's really

466
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: hard to do on a smartphone. So you know, if

467
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: that's the only way you have access where you can

468
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: do that in the privacy, where you feel like I'm

469
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: going to need extra time to do this, that's a

470
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: serious issue. It's reminded me a lot about the arguments

471
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: I had about why I thought the iPad wouldn't take

472
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: off even though it did. And it's because it's the

473
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: way I use the Internet. That's why. That's probably why

474
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: I had problems, because I was coming from it from

475
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: my own experience. Uh. And the reason is is that

476
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: mobile devices are great at consuming content. They're they're great

477
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: for doing things like watching a video or listening to music. Uh.

478
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: And and then they're they're great for communication, so instant messages, emails,

479
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: text messaging, that kind of stuff. Um, they're great for that.

480
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: They're not so great for anything that's heavier than that.

481
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: Anything where you're you're filling out forms or your uh

482
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: writing something longer than just a short email message, that's

483
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: just not what there for. And if you have a

484
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 1: population that primarily accesses the Internet through a device that

485
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: is mainly used for consumption, there's no surprise that there's

486
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: going to be a bigger gap here, right, and and

487
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: so and the and the other part of this equation.

488
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: The other thing that makes us so tricky is that

489
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: every year that goes by, we are more and more

490
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: dependent upon the upon technology in general and the Internet

491
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: in particular. It is playing a larger role and how

492
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: we make all sorts of decisions based everything from career decisions,

493
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: educational decisions, uh, just how we interact with our friends,

494
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: how we get to the entertainment that we like. All

495
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: of these things are playing larger roles within the Internet,

496
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: and so as we depend on that more and more

497
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: each year, it's going to become even more important that

498
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: we have the right right way is probably the wrong

499
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: way of saying this. The most open and accessible way

500
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: to get to that that Internet, you know, if you're

501
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: doing it through a mobile device, as great as that

502
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: mobile device is the limitations of the mobile form factor

503
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: maybe enough to push you off to the side, and

504
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: so that could very well create another sort of weird

505
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: class system where we've got the class of people who

506
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: all had access to the internet, um in an unfettered way,

507
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: and who thus have an advantage over those who did not.

508
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: It's not to say that the people who did not

509
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: cannot overcome that disadvantage. There's gonna be plenty of stories

510
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: about people who will overcome disadvantages and will be incredible

511
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: success stories. But it's just not a level playing ground.

512
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: So it's not so much that you can't succeed if

513
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: you only consume the Internet through mobile devices. I don't

514
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: mean to say that. I just mean to say you're

515
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: not on the same You're not starting from the same

516
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: position as someone who has been accessing it through a broadband. Yeah. Well, um,

517
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: we've said it a few times on the podcast. You Know.

518
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: Technology by itself, UM, isn't necessarily the answer. Just just

519
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: buying a whole bunch of computers and giving them to

520
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: people that that alone will not solve this problem. Um.

521
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: You know you they have to be able to the

522
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: people who have the technology need to be able to

523
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: to use it to its fullest potential, and they need

524
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: to they need to understand what they're doing. UM. If

525
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: they don't have UH, if they don't have access to

526
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: the education needed to help them use the technology, UM,

527
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: then it's it's going to be difficult for them to

528
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: take advantage of and UM. That's why I think articles

529
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: like Kings are so useful because they help us identify, um,

530
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: these problems so that we can take a look at

531
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: them and tackle them. I think there's probably, I'm inclined

532
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: to say, there's probably always going to be a digital

533
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: divide of some kind. UM. I think with some education

534
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: on the part of of writers like King and many others, UM,

535
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: who can bring these um, these issues to our attention.

536
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: I actually I found a lot quite a lot on

537
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: George Lucas's Educational Foundation and Utopia there. There are quite

538
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: a few articles about the digital divide on there if

539
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: you're interested in reading more about it. UM. And Pew

540
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: Research Group actually has quite a bit on the digital divide.

541
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: You d's gonna call it d d um. Yeah. But

542
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: the thing is that having people like this bring these

543
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: issues to our attention will help us learn what is

544
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: necessary to overcome the digital divide or the DD. My

545
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: tongue is not stuck in neutral. Did I don't know

546
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: what the deal is with you, but but yeah, I

547
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: mean this is it's necessary to to do this because, um,

548
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: you're right, Jonathan, I mean as much as as important

549
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: as uh, this technology is to our to our everyday

550
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: lives at this point, Um, we can't afford to be

551
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: held back by part of the population not having access

552
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: to the technology and not understanding how to use it.

553
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: And uh, I think as as the world moves forward

554
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: in uh in technological terms, Um, it is to everyone's

555
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: advantage for us to overcome these issues. Yeah. And the

556
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: way of of solving this problem is yet to be

557
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: discovered really because there's so many different factors at play.

558
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: So I want to make that clear. Is that we're

559
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: not coming out and saying that, you know, regulation is

560
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: the only answer. Um, there's there's all these different factors.

561
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: I mean, there are cultural factors here that it doesn't

562
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: matter if you regulate in this industry or not. The

563
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: cultural factors are going to play a large role. So

564
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I mean it's not an easy problem to

565
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: fix and there's no one solution to fix it. It's

566
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: just but being aware that there is an issue is

567
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: at least a good first step for a company that

568
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: that only allows online applications. Understanding that there is a

569
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: segment of the population that only uses uh smartphones or

570
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: are primarily let's say that primarily uses smartphones to use

571
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: the Internet, they might say, okay, well, let's make our

572
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: the website with our application on it more smartphone friendly. UM,

573
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: let's help it detect what what type of technology is

574
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: able to is accessing this form and make it and

575
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: optimize it for that UM for that format. So so

576
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: if you you know, it says, okay, this person is

577
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: using a smartphone, use the smartphone version of the application

578
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: and it will become more simple for them to use

579
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: and more understandable for the person using it, right while

580
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: still being a valid you know, a valid the jobless thing. Otherwise,

581
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, you just kind of created another problem. But

582
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: but that would that that's one way of overcoming it

583
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: that that someone else can take UM that requires absolutely

584
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: no legislation or regulation on the part of a country's government.

585
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 1: Now that being said, if you feel you the listener,

586
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: feel that your particular government representatives aren't doing enough in

587
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: one way or another, whether you feel that regulation is

588
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: not the right answer and you want to make that clear,

589
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: or that you think that regulation is something that's important

590
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: and that you would like to see net neutrality rules

591
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: applied across the mobile spectrum as it has been the broadband. UM,

592
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: then definitely get active, you know, write your representatives right

593
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: your who whomever represents you in government. You should contact

594
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: and let your thoughts be known and in a polite

595
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: and in concise manner, and that that's that can go

596
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: a very long way too. I mean activism, Like on

597
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: that level, it sounds like it's you know, like it

598
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: sounds like, well, what good is a letter going to do?

599
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: But if representatives know that this is an actual issue

600
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: with people and that they feel that this could become

601
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: a very important issue within a constituency, then they're there

602
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: prone to act on that or else they get voted out.

603
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: So anyway, I think that wraps up this discussion. It

604
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: was a good one. Uh. Interesting and difficult topic really Uh.

605
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoyed it. If you have any

606
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: suggestions for us to tackle, UM, well let sminty no

607
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: and then they will tweet us and then we can

608
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: know No. You can get in touch with us on

609
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: Facebook for Twitter are handled. There is tech stuff hs

610
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: W and Chris and I will talk to you again

611
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: really soon. This podcast is brought to you by audible

612
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,960
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613
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: than one thousand downloadable titles across all types of literature

614
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615
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,640
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616
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617
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618
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