WEBVTT - The Climate Movement Fights Back 0:00:17.282 --> 0:00:17.712 Pushkin. 0:00:32.402 --> 0:00:35.562 Hello and welcome to The Spill, a new weekly show 0:00:35.642 --> 0:00:38.702 brought to you by the team at Drilled. I'm Aline Brown, 0:00:38.922 --> 0:00:41.942 a senior editor at Drilled. Remember the ice crackdown in 0:00:41.982 --> 0:00:46.142 Minneapolis last winter? Well, believe it or not, a climate organization, 0:00:46.162 --> 0:00:49.842 the Sunrise Movement, was one of the groups organizing protests 0:00:49.902 --> 0:00:53.022 designed to stop ice from abducting people off the streets. 0:00:53.832 --> 0:00:56.352 And in the last few weeks, new details have emerged 0:00:56.412 --> 0:01:00.252 about how the Department of Homeland Security investigated and surveilled 0:01:00.272 --> 0:01:05.381 the organization. I spoke to Sunrise's executive director, Aru Shiny Ajay, 0:01:05.512 --> 0:01:08.292 about all that and what it was like to enter 0:01:08.312 --> 0:01:10.792 the climate movement at the height of the youth climate 0:01:10.831 --> 0:01:15.952 movement and watch it transform through racial justice uprisings, genocide, 0:01:16.092 --> 0:01:20.771 and rising authoritarianism. You can tune into The Spill every 0:01:20.851 --> 0:01:24.212 Friday between Drilled's narrative seasons. We've got all kinds of 0:01:24.292 --> 0:01:28.362 interviews lined up in the weeks ahead with journalists, researchers, activists, 0:01:28.762 --> 0:01:31.002 and people on the front lines of the climate crisis. 0:01:31.622 --> 0:01:38.892 Here's my conversation with Aru. 0:01:38.911 --> 0:01:39.041 Hi, Aru. 0:01:39.172 --> 0:01:40.312 Welcome to The Spill. 0:01:40.331 --> 0:01:42.671 Thank you so much for having me on. 0:01:44.032 --> 0:01:46.972 I'm so excited to be talking to you. I'm from Minnesota, 0:01:47.092 --> 0:01:51.212 from the Twin Cities. Oh, you are. I love hearing that. Yeah. 0:01:51.252 --> 0:01:54.522 And like ever since I saw Sunrise get involved with 0:01:54.602 --> 0:01:57.162 the anti-ice protests, I've been like, oh my gosh, I 0:01:57.282 --> 0:01:59.602 really need to talk to Aru and find out what's 0:01:59.642 --> 0:02:01.782 going on there. So I'm really glad we finally got 0:02:01.822 --> 0:02:02.362 to connect. 0:02:03.062 --> 0:02:04.502 I know. I'm really excited for you. It was a 0:02:04.542 --> 0:02:07.742 crazy time this winter. And yeah, but excited to be 0:02:07.762 --> 0:02:08.322 able to chat now. 0:02:08.582 --> 0:02:12.722 Awesome. Well, there is a lot to talk about, and 0:02:12.742 --> 0:02:15.512 I want to start with kind of a big question, 0:02:15.572 --> 0:02:19.532 and then we'll reel back and talk about how you've 0:02:19.732 --> 0:02:23.042 experienced the climate movement transforming over the past decade of 0:02:23.062 --> 0:02:26.802 your work. and eventually get back to Minneapolis. But first, 0:02:26.822 --> 0:02:30.742 this like big question. I'm curious what you think of 0:02:30.802 --> 0:02:36.122 the idea that the climate movement is in retreat right now. 0:02:36.602 --> 0:02:41.192 You know, 350.org, I think it was the fall of 2025, 0:02:41.192 --> 0:02:45.112 announced it was suspending its U.S. operations. Greenpeace has had 0:02:45.132 --> 0:02:49.172 its resources drained via energy transfers, lawsuit blaming them for 0:02:49.212 --> 0:02:52.632 the Standing Rock movement. Sierra Club isn't seeing the winds 0:02:52.692 --> 0:02:55.032 it once did. And, you know, parts of the youth 0:02:55.072 --> 0:02:58.632 movement have really been criminalized, including for activism around the 0:02:58.852 --> 0:03:02.091 U.S.-funded genocide in Gaza. You know, and it was, of course, 0:03:02.132 --> 0:03:05.742 just revealed that your organization, the Sunrise Movement, was investigated 0:03:05.842 --> 0:03:09.522 for its involvement in anti-ice protests and was even infiltrated 0:03:09.562 --> 0:03:13.162 by undercovers. So I'm just curious if all this means 0:03:13.422 --> 0:03:16.822 that the climate movement has lost steam or gone quiet 0:03:17.242 --> 0:03:21.372 as climate disasters spiral. How do you think about that? Yeah. 0:03:22.952 --> 0:03:26.672 I mean, I think the reality is like fascism is 0:03:26.732 --> 0:03:29.002 on the rise right now. And that means that every 0:03:29.442 --> 0:03:32.602 movement that is against fascism is sort of inherently in 0:03:32.642 --> 0:03:35.722 retreat in many ways. You know, like we are seeing 0:03:35.842 --> 0:03:40.332 just these dramatic attacks on every single part of our society, 0:03:40.432 --> 0:03:43.732 including climate. From my experience in the climate movement, I 0:03:43.772 --> 0:03:45.752 think there is certainly some truth to the fact that 0:03:45.772 --> 0:03:48.992 there was a huge surge of climate energy, and then 0:03:49.012 --> 0:03:51.852 a lot of it deflated during the Biden years, when 0:03:51.892 --> 0:03:56.312 I think people saw the drawn-out fight around the climate bill. 0:03:56.432 --> 0:03:58.432 If they were paying attention, they saw the drawn-out fight. 0:03:58.752 --> 0:04:01.812 If they weren't paying attention, all they really saw was, 0:04:02.472 --> 0:04:04.262 I thought we'd do something on climate change, and it 0:04:04.292 --> 0:04:07.342 doesn't seem like we did. And obviously, I know that 0:04:07.362 --> 0:04:09.782 we actually did pass a very big climate law, the 0:04:09.802 --> 0:04:13.132 Inflation Reduction Act. But It was a fraction of the 0:04:13.252 --> 0:04:15.422 law that I think Sunrise wanted to pass. And I 0:04:15.462 --> 0:04:18.361 think it was certainly a fraction of how effective we 0:04:18.382 --> 0:04:20.722 would have wanted it to be at actually reaching people's 0:04:20.842 --> 0:04:23.622 everyday lives and showing the ways in which we were 0:04:24.032 --> 0:04:27.212 addressing the climate crisis. So I don't think that it 0:04:27.272 --> 0:04:29.912 is that people are less concerned about climate change. 0:04:30.432 --> 0:04:32.492 But I do think there's been a rise. 0:04:32.312 --> 0:04:35.652 In this, what I'd call almost climate dumerism of there's 0:04:35.692 --> 0:04:36.722 nothing we can do about it. 0:04:36.772 --> 0:04:39.152 We missed our window. We're too late. The government will 0:04:39.192 --> 0:04:40.832 never listen. Like, that's what I hear. 0:04:41.232 --> 0:04:43.552 It's people saying, I really care about this, but I 0:04:43.592 --> 0:04:45.772 don't really know how to direct it in the middle 0:04:45.792 --> 0:04:46.932 of everything else that's going on. 0:04:48.512 --> 0:04:54.092 You know, growing up in Minnesota, how did... you become 0:04:54.192 --> 0:04:57.282 conscious of the climate crisis? Was there a moment or 0:04:57.322 --> 0:05:00.282 something that happened where you were like, oh shit, like 0:05:00.422 --> 0:05:01.702 this is it. This is the thing. 0:05:01.722 --> 0:05:05.962 Yeah, there were a few moments and it was around 0:05:06.102 --> 0:05:06.852 in high school. 0:05:06.872 --> 0:05:08.592 A couple of things happened at once. 0:05:09.592 --> 0:05:14.272 One thing was that there were these record breaking floods 0:05:14.432 --> 0:05:17.472 in Chennai in India. And I have some family who 0:05:17.512 --> 0:05:21.322 lives there. And I remember learning about the floods and 0:05:22.182 --> 0:05:24.622 I had family members who were like, weren't able to 0:05:24.662 --> 0:05:27.662 go down to their courtyard for several days. And they 0:05:27.702 --> 0:05:30.702 were like in an apartment building and they couldn't go down. 0:05:30.822 --> 0:05:34.062 You know, they were trapped. And that really hit me hard. 0:05:34.122 --> 0:05:36.642 I was like, this is, up until that point, I 0:05:36.662 --> 0:05:41.842 had thought about climate as a issue that was important, but, 0:05:42.302 --> 0:05:45.102 you know, about the polar bears and the penguins. And 0:05:45.142 --> 0:05:48.192 that was my moment, I guess, over 10 years ago now, 0:05:48.462 --> 0:05:52.152 where I was like, oh, this is actually about And 0:05:52.172 --> 0:05:53.932 then the other thing that happened at around the same 0:05:53.972 --> 0:05:59.052 time was I actually I was doing like refugee aid 0:05:59.132 --> 0:06:01.791 work for Syrian refugees. I was like volunteering in like 0:06:01.812 --> 0:06:03.492 kitchens and stuff like that as a high schooler. 0:06:04.012 --> 0:06:04.912 And I learned about. 0:06:04.772 --> 0:06:07.432 The ways in which the Syrian refugee crisis was connected 0:06:07.532 --> 0:06:12.212 to drought and climate disaster. And, you know, my parents 0:06:12.272 --> 0:06:15.492 are immigrants from India. We came here before I was born. 0:06:16.052 --> 0:06:19.212 And I just really started to wrap my head around 0:06:19.712 --> 0:06:23.562 the mass violence. global migration that's going to happen if 0:06:23.642 --> 0:06:24.922 we don't. 0:06:26.202 --> 0:06:27.302 Put a stop to climate change? 0:06:27.322 --> 0:06:29.101 Like how many people are just going to lose their 0:06:29.142 --> 0:06:32.002 homes and how many wars are going to be started? 0:06:32.022 --> 0:06:34.762 And I started to understand it as a climate issue, 0:06:34.782 --> 0:06:37.792 but also just something that was fundamentally about peace and 0:06:37.852 --> 0:06:39.262 stability for people's lives. 0:06:40.692 --> 0:06:45.212 Interesting. Okay. So yeah, the idea that immigration is closely 0:06:45.252 --> 0:06:47.952 connected with the climate crisis was really at the foundation 0:06:47.992 --> 0:06:50.472 of your consciousness around this, it sounds like. 0:06:51.552 --> 0:06:53.262 I mean, it was the first way I experienced it, 0:06:53.332 --> 0:06:55.792 you know, which I think sometimes it's explained as this 0:06:55.952 --> 0:06:57.012 abstract thing. 0:06:57.252 --> 0:06:57.772 It's interesting. 0:06:57.832 --> 0:07:00.552 People sometimes talk about climate as a white issue, but 0:07:00.612 --> 0:07:03.432 it's actually, it turns out that Latino people support climate 0:07:03.792 --> 0:07:05.732 action in some of the highest rates. And sometimes I 0:07:05.792 --> 0:07:07.832 wonder if that is tied at all to sort of 0:07:07.852 --> 0:07:09.562 the sense of like, I know what it's like to 0:07:09.602 --> 0:07:13.622 see my home destabilized and what that would create. I 0:07:13.662 --> 0:07:15.962 think it's a really felt issue for a lot of people. 0:07:15.982 --> 0:07:20.862 Totally. Totally. So I'm curious to hear about your involvement 0:07:20.882 --> 0:07:24.072 with the Sunrise Movement. You know, the Sunrise Movement came 0:07:24.132 --> 0:07:27.332 into wide public awareness from what I know in around 0:07:27.612 --> 0:07:31.372 November 2018. There was a sit-in in Nancy Pelosi's office. 0:07:31.472 --> 0:07:34.012 It was all over the Internet. Sunrise, you know, youth 0:07:34.062 --> 0:07:37.382 were demanding action on the Green New Deal. So this 0:07:37.422 --> 0:07:39.982 was the same year that Greta Thunberg broke out with 0:07:40.002 --> 0:07:42.832 these school sit-ins. And it was a moment where people 0:07:42.872 --> 0:07:46.992 were really leaning on youth leadership for an answer to 0:07:47.012 --> 0:07:50.212 the climate crisis. So, you know, my understanding is you 0:07:50.232 --> 0:07:53.042 were involved with Sunrise by then. And I'm really curious 0:07:53.202 --> 0:07:55.802 what that moment felt like for you as one of 0:07:55.902 --> 0:07:59.022 these youths that was supposed to figure all this out. 0:08:00.782 --> 0:08:04.052 Yeah, I was I think I was 19 or 20 0:08:04.052 --> 0:08:04.672 at the time. 0:08:04.692 --> 0:08:08.382 I must have just turned 20, actually. And I was 0:08:08.422 --> 0:08:09.382 there at that sit-in. 0:08:09.742 --> 0:08:12.182 And I remember it was the first time I'd ever 0:08:12.402 --> 0:08:16.422 risked arrest for anything. I remember going into the office, 0:08:16.502 --> 0:08:19.742 sitting there. AOC came and spoke with us. It felt 0:08:19.762 --> 0:08:23.572 really exhilarating. And I remember it was one of the 0:08:23.592 --> 0:08:26.882 first times I felt privileged. powerful as a young person 0:08:26.922 --> 0:08:29.102 honestly I was like I am sitting here in the 0:08:29.142 --> 0:08:31.102 speaker of the house's office and we're going to make 0:08:31.162 --> 0:08:34.921 her do something and you know when we that day 0:08:34.982 --> 0:08:36.661 we actually didn't know how far it would go we 0:08:36.702 --> 0:08:38.842 were like okay that was a good action and I 0:08:38.862 --> 0:08:41.742 went to bed that night and I woke up we 0:08:41.761 --> 0:08:44.021 were like all crammed into this tiny Airbnb there were 0:08:44.041 --> 0:08:46.192 probably like 50 of us And so I was sleeping 0:08:46.352 --> 0:08:49.451 inside of a closet, physically inside, curled up. And I 0:08:49.511 --> 0:08:51.511 woke up to someone like knocking on the door of 0:08:51.551 --> 0:08:53.791 the closet, being like, wake up, wake up. We have like, 0:08:54.171 --> 0:08:55.952 I think it was like Washington Post or something. We 0:08:55.972 --> 0:08:58.052 have Washington Post on the line and they want to 0:08:58.072 --> 0:09:00.762 talk to someone who was there. So I just roll 0:09:00.822 --> 0:09:02.841 out of the closet, pick up the phone. I'm like 0:09:02.921 --> 0:09:05.982 ready for my interview. So that's what I remember. 0:09:06.421 --> 0:09:10.441 It was really exhilarating. It was a little bit scary too. 0:09:10.582 --> 0:09:11.252 Like, oh God. 0:09:11.881 --> 0:09:13.292 I guess nobody has a plan. 0:09:13.352 --> 0:09:14.951 And that means when we come in with a plan, 0:09:15.011 --> 0:09:17.911 everyone's willing to say, okay, what's the plan? And that 0:09:17.931 --> 0:09:20.881 was definitely a little scary, but mostly exhilarating. And I 0:09:20.921 --> 0:09:22.582 loved it so much that I ended up dropping out 0:09:22.602 --> 0:09:25.862 of college. after that semester to organize full-time with Sunrise. 0:09:26.021 --> 0:09:29.341 I'm curious about how you saw things evolve in the 0:09:29.362 --> 0:09:33.521 years after that. Between then and now, we've had these 0:09:33.801 --> 0:09:38.302 defining moments, the George Floyd protests, also set in Minneapolis, 0:09:38.381 --> 0:09:42.711 the COVID pandemic, and then genocide in Gaza. I'm curious 0:09:43.072 --> 0:09:47.711 how you saw the movement and your relationship to it 0:09:48.811 --> 0:09:52.232 over the course of these monumental events and how you're 0:09:52.411 --> 0:09:55.002 thinking about the climate crisis and how to address it 0:09:55.041 --> 0:09:56.141 strategically changed. 0:09:57.742 --> 0:10:02.982 Yeah, I mean, I think when I joined Sunrise, I 0:10:03.261 --> 0:10:07.732 really believe that the recipe to change could be pretty straightforward, 0:10:07.771 --> 0:10:12.562 that we could create mass protests, pressure politicians, elect the 0:10:12.602 --> 0:10:16.752 right people, and we would get wins. And I think 0:10:16.801 --> 0:10:19.332 what we've seen, what a lot of my generation has seen, 0:10:19.472 --> 0:10:20.711 is that it's actually. 0:10:22.031 --> 0:10:23.492 I really believe in mass movements. 0:10:23.572 --> 0:10:27.271 And I've also really seen the enormous corrupting influence of 0:10:27.631 --> 0:10:32.002 money in politics in particular, and the enormous lengths to 0:10:32.021 --> 0:10:35.921 which the political establishment will go to avoid creating change 0:10:35.942 --> 0:10:38.941 sometimes because they're often beholden to that money. I think 0:10:38.962 --> 0:10:42.261 that's been my biggest lesson over those multiple things that 0:10:42.301 --> 0:10:46.041 you named. I don't think our democracy works for everyday people. 0:10:46.502 --> 0:10:49.261 That doesn't mean that mass movements aren't necessary. In fact, 0:10:49.681 --> 0:10:52.531 I think mass movements are perhaps the only thing that 0:10:52.572 --> 0:10:55.352 can force a democracy to start working. But it means 0:10:55.391 --> 0:10:57.271 that the way that we talk about climate action these 0:10:57.311 --> 0:11:00.411 days is not just about how do we actually pass 0:11:00.431 --> 0:11:03.191 the climate legislation. It's also about how do we actually 0:11:03.631 --> 0:11:06.682 stop fascism and build the political system that can pass 0:11:06.702 --> 0:11:09.321 the climate legislation in the first place. And that's not 0:11:09.362 --> 0:11:11.781 like we have to do like a 50-year plan to 0:11:11.942 --> 0:11:16.082 rebuild our democracy. It's just actually recognizing that you know, 0:11:16.242 --> 0:11:20.852 Joe Manchin was a literal fossil fuel baron who, Senator 0:11:20.872 --> 0:11:25.011 from West Virginia, repeatedly vetoed the most ambitious versions of 0:11:25.072 --> 0:11:30.141 a climate plan. And there's literally records of Exxon lobbyists saying, yeah, 0:11:30.462 --> 0:11:32.442 he does that because we tell him to. That is 0:11:32.622 --> 0:11:35.322 on the record, publicly, huge scandal when it came out, 0:11:35.681 --> 0:11:37.881 didn't change and everything. So I think for a lot 0:11:37.901 --> 0:11:40.301 of young people, there's a kind of this A lot 0:11:40.322 --> 0:11:42.962 of the broadening of the climate movement, I think sometimes 0:11:43.002 --> 0:11:45.502 it's reported on as like people don't care about climate. 0:11:45.982 --> 0:11:48.541 I think about it actually as a strategic reckoning with 0:11:48.921 --> 0:11:52.612 how broken our democracy is, how unresponsive it is to 0:11:52.641 --> 0:11:56.771 public opinion and people actually seeing organizing against fascism and 0:11:56.791 --> 0:12:00.692 organizing for democracy as part of a climate fight, part 0:12:00.811 --> 0:12:03.111 of expecting your government to be responsive to you on 0:12:03.232 --> 0:12:05.832 any list of issues that have mass popular support. 0:12:07.232 --> 0:12:09.711 You say, you know, you had this idea of a 0:12:09.911 --> 0:12:15.651 more linear pathway to meaningful climate action to be taken 0:12:15.692 --> 0:12:19.582 by our government. Were there specific places along the way 0:12:19.671 --> 0:12:23.261 where that was disrupted and you were like, oh, our 0:12:23.281 --> 0:12:25.942 democracy doesn't work? And, you know, what were those moments? 0:12:27.572 --> 0:12:31.411 The moment that I remember the most clearly was in 0:12:31.452 --> 0:12:36.362 the fall of 2021 when we'd been campaigning all year 0:12:36.502 --> 0:12:41.082 on a climate bill and several friends of mine in 0:12:41.122 --> 0:12:44.322 Sunrise went on hunger strike on the White House steps 0:12:45.761 --> 0:12:47.722 to the degree that one of them had to be 0:12:47.781 --> 0:12:52.051 hospitalized and others had to be like forcibly taken off 0:12:52.072 --> 0:12:55.151 the hunger strike in order to not, to not die from, 0:12:55.311 --> 0:13:00.542 from starving themselves. And to have that happen and for 0:13:00.742 --> 0:13:04.782 Joe Manchin to still sort of basically be driving around 0:13:04.822 --> 0:13:09.252 in a Maserati, getting in his yacht and have reports 0:13:09.311 --> 0:13:11.291 coming out about how he was just doing it because 0:13:11.311 --> 0:13:12.031 he was getting money. 0:13:12.051 --> 0:13:15.612 That was like one of the biggest pieces to me. 0:13:15.692 --> 0:13:20.002 I was like, money and politics is absolutely majorly corrupting 0:13:20.102 --> 0:13:23.202 our ability to do anything. And yes, Mass movements can 0:13:23.242 --> 0:13:25.022 out-organize that. I think we see that in the string 0:13:25.041 --> 0:13:28.202 of electoral victories that we're seeing this year. But we 0:13:28.281 --> 0:13:30.642 also need to stop this corrupting influence altogether. 0:13:30.661 --> 0:13:36.242 Another big question here. I'm curious what you think. Is 0:13:36.261 --> 0:13:41.142 the U.S.-funded genocide in Gaza a climate issue? 0:13:41.332 --> 0:13:46.112 And if so, why? Yeah, I think there's two pieces 0:13:46.131 --> 0:13:46.412 to this. 0:13:46.592 --> 0:13:50.392 There is a climate analysis about why war is bad 0:13:50.452 --> 0:13:51.391 for the climate crisis. 0:13:52.881 --> 0:13:54.622 There's stuff about emissions, all of that. 0:13:55.401 --> 0:13:57.881 My honest answer is that the people who want to 0:13:57.921 --> 0:14:01.802 stop the climate crisis care about everyone across the world 0:14:01.862 --> 0:14:05.492 having stable homes to live in, food to eat, clean 0:14:05.531 --> 0:14:08.071 water to drink, clean air to breathe. And it's actually 0:14:08.112 --> 0:14:11.472 just like a very humanitarian impulse to say, hey, I 0:14:11.551 --> 0:14:15.532 actually don't think that we should destroy the ecosystem of 0:14:15.712 --> 0:14:19.382 literally everyone on this planet. And when I think about 0:14:19.462 --> 0:14:23.081 the enormous support that The youth climate movement loaned towards 0:14:23.322 --> 0:14:26.042 and in fact became a lot of the youth movement 0:14:26.122 --> 0:14:29.331 against the genocide. I don't think it was as much like, well, 0:14:29.372 --> 0:14:31.692 war causes emissions. And it was much more like the 0:14:31.732 --> 0:14:35.752 same humanitarian impulse driving both of those. That being said, 0:14:35.952 --> 0:14:38.902 I do absolutely think that in a world of climate change, 0:14:38.922 --> 0:14:41.701 we're going to face so much more war. so much 0:14:41.722 --> 0:14:44.532 more destruction. I think most people are not wrapping their 0:14:44.572 --> 0:14:47.652 heads around the scale of catastrophe that we might be 0:14:47.712 --> 0:14:52.412 seeing if we don't really seriously respond domestically and internationally 0:14:52.431 --> 0:14:53.562 to the climate crisis. 0:14:53.942 --> 0:14:56.862 I'm also curious how you have seen the question of 0:14:56.902 --> 0:15:02.402 Palestine be used to divide and disrupt the climate movement. Again, 0:15:03.092 --> 0:15:05.852 I think of Greta Thunberg because I associate her as 0:15:05.931 --> 0:15:08.252 the symbol of the youth movement. It was kind of 0:15:08.272 --> 0:15:11.552 this like, darling, everybody is like, oh, yes, our moral compass. 0:15:11.602 --> 0:15:15.062 Here she is. But then she started speaking out on 0:15:15.082 --> 0:15:19.622 Palestine and that kind of started to shift and she 0:15:19.642 --> 0:15:22.702 was sort of recast as this radical and And even 0:15:22.982 --> 0:15:25.701 as a terrorist in some camps. And, you know, I 0:15:25.722 --> 0:15:28.602 think that's reflective of something that's happened much more broadly. 0:15:28.622 --> 0:15:33.632 You know, support for Palestinians and criticism of Israel has 0:15:33.672 --> 0:15:37.432 been used really widely to criminalize, especially youth movements around 0:15:37.452 --> 0:15:41.672 the world. So I guess I'm curious how you've seen 0:15:41.702 --> 0:15:44.922 the issue of Gaza kind of transform the youth climate 0:15:44.962 --> 0:15:48.522 movement and the climate movement more broadly. And I'm curious 0:15:48.561 --> 0:15:51.382 what you think about the way that The climate movement 0:15:51.402 --> 0:15:54.162 broadly has responded to that crisis. 0:15:55.561 --> 0:15:58.072 Yeah, I mean, what I've seen is actually that the 0:15:58.122 --> 0:16:01.452 youth climate movement broadly responded in pretty similar ways to 0:16:01.472 --> 0:16:04.112 the crisis, which is that this is an emergency. This 0:16:04.132 --> 0:16:06.952 is a humanitarian crisis. We don't think this is right. 0:16:07.052 --> 0:16:09.332 Our tax dollars should not be going to this. In 2024, 0:16:09.332 --> 0:16:12.621 we were running like a fund climate, not genocide pressure 0:16:12.632 --> 0:16:15.081 campaign campaign. on Biden calling on him to declare a 0:16:15.102 --> 0:16:18.872 climate emergency and stop like sending money for wars, for 0:16:18.902 --> 0:16:23.392 the genocide abroad. So I saw the movement actually respond 0:16:23.431 --> 0:16:27.931 with a lot of consistency. Who didn't respond that way 0:16:27.992 --> 0:16:33.472 were honestly political pundits and sort of the chattering class 0:16:33.592 --> 0:16:36.142 who I think saw it as a sign of radicalism 0:16:36.602 --> 0:16:41.092 to be anti-genocide. And I think if we've seen anything 0:16:41.132 --> 0:16:46.662 in the midterm election cycle, I think they were really wrong. Actually, 0:16:46.722 --> 0:16:48.561 the majority of people in the United States do not 0:16:48.622 --> 0:16:51.292 think that we should be funding a genocide abroad. The 0:16:51.332 --> 0:16:53.752 majority of people in the world don't think that. It's 0:16:53.832 --> 0:16:57.692 actually only a pretty small class of politicians who... are 0:16:57.832 --> 0:17:01.292 often bought out by AIPAC money who have decided to 0:17:01.612 --> 0:17:05.032 play political covers. So when we made the decision to 0:17:05.332 --> 0:17:09.071 vocally oppose the genocide, it was right after things started 0:17:09.132 --> 0:17:13.092 escalating sometime early October, we made the decision. We did 0:17:13.412 --> 0:17:18.532 lose some funder support. We didn't have a single member 0:17:18.632 --> 0:17:20.811 of our base really come out saying this is the 0:17:20.831 --> 0:17:24.282 wrong decision. And that is remarkable to me. It just 0:17:24.412 --> 0:17:26.901 wasn't the challenge we were facing. I think they've been 0:17:26.942 --> 0:17:28.492 proven wrong now. I think we're going to need to 0:17:28.532 --> 0:17:30.452 continue to show that this is an issue that has 0:17:30.512 --> 0:17:33.351 mass popular support. And we were sort of painted as 0:17:33.392 --> 0:17:35.452 like radicals for going in this direction. 0:17:35.472 --> 0:17:58.341 I think that wasn't true. Right. Totally. I want to 0:17:58.382 --> 0:18:00.802 talk about Trump a little bit. He came into office 0:18:00.861 --> 0:18:04.821 in the winter of 2025. And I'm curious about the 0:18:04.861 --> 0:18:07.972 months leading up to the ICE crackdown. You know, what 0:18:08.032 --> 0:18:13.152 were you experiencing in your movement between January 2025 and 0:18:13.772 --> 0:18:17.731 January 2026 when ICE really invaded the Twin Cities? 0:18:19.222 --> 0:18:21.582 So January 2025, I don't know if you remember, but 0:18:21.702 --> 0:18:24.161 it was right as the L.A. fires were happening in 0:18:24.742 --> 0:18:27.482 So that's what I really remember about that January. It 0:18:27.522 --> 0:18:31.372 was both inauguration and this vivid climate disaster. I think 0:18:31.402 --> 0:18:36.392 the thing that I'll say is that 2025 for me, 0:18:36.452 --> 0:18:38.342 and I think for a lot of our movement, was 0:18:38.412 --> 0:18:41.722 a year of realizing just how far Trump was going 0:18:41.841 --> 0:18:44.881 to go with the power that he had. And in 0:18:44.942 --> 0:18:46.861 some ways, we knew it was going to happen. We 0:18:46.882 --> 0:18:49.721 had read Project 2025. We had seen what he was 0:18:49.762 --> 0:18:52.641 going to say. But there was something different about actually 0:18:52.682 --> 0:18:55.561 seeing it happen in front of our own eyes. I 0:18:56.402 --> 0:19:01.611 remember his absolute gutting of climate programs, being really, really 0:19:01.652 --> 0:19:04.691 furious about that, his giving away huge amounts of. 0:19:04.672 --> 0:19:05.972 Contracts to fossil fuel billionaires. 0:19:06.462 --> 0:19:10.561 I also remember, I think it was in May of 2025, 0:19:10.561 --> 0:19:13.861 there was a grad student in the University of Minnesota 0:19:14.361 --> 0:19:17.902 who got grabbed by ICE, who I actually had gone 0:19:17.962 --> 0:19:20.601 to high school with. And so that was like my 0:19:20.722 --> 0:19:25.141 first moment of, wait, I know this person. He was 0:19:25.242 --> 0:19:28.601 legally here on a student visa. They grabbed him because 0:19:28.821 --> 0:19:31.422 many years ago, he had some sort of like driving 0:19:31.502 --> 0:19:34.081 ticket of some sort. And that was a real moment 0:19:34.121 --> 0:19:36.321 for me of like, oh my God, I. 0:19:36.841 --> 0:19:37.722 Knew this would happen. 0:19:37.742 --> 0:19:40.022 I knew it was happening, but it's still different when 0:19:40.061 --> 0:19:42.401 it's your place and your home and your people. 0:19:42.821 --> 0:19:44.441 So I felt really aware of that. 0:19:44.722 --> 0:19:46.752 And I think that type of thing was just starting 0:19:46.772 --> 0:19:50.712 to happen all around the country. And it became hard 0:19:50.792 --> 0:19:54.432 for us to organize. We were going to be running 0:19:54.512 --> 0:19:58.242 state level climate campaigns. We were actually running polluters pay 0:19:58.262 --> 0:20:01.701 campaigns and we realized that the Trump administration was preempting 0:20:01.821 --> 0:20:06.002 that federally and was basically passing legislation to stop states 0:20:06.061 --> 0:20:10.662 from passing climate laws, essentially, especially that villainize fossil fuels. 0:20:11.841 --> 0:20:14.901 We were just like, this is silly. It's silly to. 0:20:14.882 --> 0:20:18.621 Be running state-level climate campaigns while the federal government is 0:20:18.802 --> 0:20:22.351 actively being weaponized against our movements, against the campaigns that 0:20:22.371 --> 0:20:27.412 we're running. We actually just need to stop this authoritarian administration. 0:20:27.432 --> 0:20:29.492 We need to make sure that he can't rig elections 0:20:29.532 --> 0:20:31.431 so much that we can't win. We need to make 0:20:31.472 --> 0:20:34.532 sure that he stops kidnapping people off the streets. It 0:20:34.571 --> 0:20:38.151 became increasingly clear that it was just actually just bad 0:20:38.311 --> 0:20:42.861 strategy to ignore what was happening federally. You just actually 0:20:42.902 --> 0:20:45.582 have to go at the root of what's happening. So 0:20:45.642 --> 0:20:47.542 that's how I think about it. I don't think about 0:20:47.561 --> 0:20:49.422 it as a retreat. I actually think about it as like, 0:20:50.081 --> 0:20:52.462 let's stop the immediate bleeding so that we can strike 0:20:52.482 --> 0:20:54.512 at the type of legislation we need. 0:20:55.331 --> 0:20:57.491 Right. I think you said in one piece that you 0:20:57.532 --> 0:21:00.212 wrote that it was like pulling teeth to get people 0:21:00.252 --> 0:21:03.891 to engage with those polluters pay campaigns because of what 0:21:03.912 --> 0:21:06.802 you're talking about. People are literally getting kidnapped off the 0:21:06.841 --> 0:21:10.661 streets and having these really immediate crises. Yeah. 0:21:10.722 --> 0:21:14.262 And I think it's important to say that that doesn't 0:21:14.282 --> 0:21:17.442 necessarily mean that people don't care about the climate crisis, 0:21:17.942 --> 0:21:20.361 but in fact, that people want to do things that 0:21:20.422 --> 0:21:21.882 are impactful and. 0:21:21.861 --> 0:21:23.381 Big and that they can see matter. 0:21:24.851 --> 0:21:27.652 And I think people actually have an innate sense that 0:21:28.152 --> 0:21:31.002 passing the state level climate legislation while Trump is doing X, Y, 0:21:31.351 --> 0:21:35.672 Z to the climate actually has limited impact. We always 0:21:35.732 --> 0:21:38.232 say people can smell bullshit. Like if your strategy is bad, 0:21:38.292 --> 0:21:40.712 people know. If you're telling people you're going to win 0:21:40.732 --> 0:21:44.071 when you're not, people know. And I think that if 0:21:44.132 --> 0:21:45.992 we win back the House and certainly if we win 0:21:46.012 --> 0:21:48.451 the House and Senate, we're going to see a huge 0:21:48.512 --> 0:21:52.172 jump in interest in climate legislation and climate campaigning because 0:21:52.232 --> 0:21:54.851 people will start to feel like, oh, maybe. 0:21:54.672 --> 0:21:57.552 We could actually pass things. But in the absence of that, 0:21:57.611 --> 0:22:00.512 it was really, really hard to get people doing that. 0:22:00.532 --> 0:22:04.762 Yeah, that makes sense. Tell me about this ice crackdown. 0:22:05.081 --> 0:22:09.901 How did it feel in Minneapolis as this started to unfold? 0:22:10.601 --> 0:22:14.782 I know it was a lot. Yeah, it was really. 0:22:16.242 --> 0:22:17.002 It was very intense. 0:22:18.682 --> 0:22:25.851 Our Sunrise Twin Cities chapter actually did some scenario planning 0:22:25.871 --> 0:22:29.532 in November. And we were like, what are the potential 0:22:29.591 --> 0:22:31.732