WEBVTT - Addiction: Why you can't kick SYSK 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.920 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.560 It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:16.439 from House toff works dot com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:20.720 the podcast on Josh Clark. There's Charles w Chuck Tryan Bryant, 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:27.920 Chucky Chuckles, Chuck's Chuck Star whatever, Chutrean's new. I had 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.000 a I had something that I was working on in 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:31.760 my head, but it got pushed up by the eight 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:33.839 million other things that I have to keep in my 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:38.320 working memory. Another Nicknamer. There's a good one too. I 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:40.720 think it was gonna it was really gonna knock everyone's 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:47.720 socks off. Chuckolate. No, l Yeah, she's getting she's getting 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:50.240 a lot freer with the last these days. Huh. Either 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.960 or she's moving her chair closer and closer, or she's 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:55.080 on L O L cats right now or just not 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:59.280 she's name listening? Yeah, um, Chuck, Yes, we're talking about 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.760 addiction today. That's right. Do you remember in the Science 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.920 Phasing Out Sleep podcast, which strangely enough comes out today 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.200 on the day we're recording it, but this will be 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.479 released like five weeks later, you talked about recording this. Yeah, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.240 we talked about doing addiction and lo and behold here 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.080 it is so really if you think about it, we 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:24.000 are on track in real time, but in podcast released 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.360 publishing time, it seems like there's a big lag. But 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:29.840 we're giving people what they want, right, that's right, addiction 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.240 or what we want. Did you like this article? Yeah? 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.080 Did you know that there are many stories about addiction 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.200 in our society today? Yeah? When this is like the 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.679 most rigid article of mine you've ever read? Oh you 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.920 wrote this? Yes, I'm just kidding, dude. It was. Um. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:46.679 I went back when I read it. I was like, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.800 it was very scientific sounding, like you. It could have 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.440 been on the National Institutes of Health website, and it 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.520 was very bland. And there was one thing I remember 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.280 going back reading, I didn't pull the trigger on Um, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.120 we're talking about addiction and researching it, uh, compared to 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.120 our views of addiction, like even twenty thirty years ago, 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.920 like in the eighties. God, can you believe that was 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:15.079 like thirty years ago? Night? Um, that whole Nancy Reagan 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.239 just Say No campaign scared the Bejesus out of a 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.679 lot of people, but it also had a very negative 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:26.240 impact as well, and that it's so grossly overexaggerated the 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.320 effects and the addictiveness of drugs, that for kids who 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.040 were I guess gutsy enough to go ahead and try 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:38.200 the drugs that they've been warned against. Once they tried 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.000 them and found out that they weren't you know, they 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.880 didn't turn into like a donkey, uh as Nancy Reagan 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.000 told them they would. Then UM, they were like, well, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.160 I wonder what other drugs are gonna do? You know, 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.880 they get a little more bold and courageous. So what 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.000 are you saying that they just say No to drugs 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.920 campaign may have had the reverse effect on people who 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:02.000 actually tried drugs. They and it's not just me saying that, 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.160 there's a lot of there's a lot of consensus in 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:10.680 the addiction UM field, which is you know, multidiscipline UM 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.560 that this just say no campaign or any campaign that 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.280 overexaggerates the effects of drugs and deviates from a straight 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:22.400 science based reporting of what uh addictive substances can do 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:27.480 to you UM can have a negative impact. Well, you 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.560 you think we would have learned our lesson from refer 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.560 madness back in the day. You would definitely think so, 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.760 you know, that whole dope fine thing Chuck. It's funny 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.480 that you bring up refer madness and the dope fine thing, 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.600 because that was the way for a period that people 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.640 looked at addicts. It was a major character flaw, right, 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.360 But before that it was just no big deal. Well, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.280 there was no such thing as addiction up until like 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.800 the late eighteenth century. It was called how Things are Exactly? 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.400 Did you see that little thing I sent you about 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.680 the the funeral of a Boston minister's wife in sixteen 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.160 seventy year? I didn't get a chance to read it, 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.840 was it. So there's this really cool paper if you 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.240 ever have some time to kill, which you know you 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.280 never ever ever do. But it's a thirty two pager 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.720 by a guy named Harry g. Levine called The Discovery 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:19.160 of Addiction colon Changing Conceptions of Habitual Drunkenness in America. 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.160 It sounds really boring. I think it's like ninety eight. 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.240 But um this guy is tracing the history of addiction 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.120 and he's saying, like, prior to the eighteenth century, the 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:30.040 end of the eighteenth century, there was no such thing 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.480 like people drank because they wanted to get drunk, right. Um, 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.520 So in sixteen seventy eight, people in America drank their 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.080 faces off Chuck e. G. At the funeral of a 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:44.440 Boston minister's wife, mourners consumed fifty one and a half 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:49.800 gallons of wine. And think how many could there be. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.159 It's sixteen seventy eight in Boston. It's like fifty people 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.760 who aren't like Native American in in the continental United 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.760 States or what would become Well, maybe there were fifty 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.960 one and a half people and they drank he so uh. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.159 And then at the ordination not a funeral, an ordination 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:09.440 of Reverend Edwin Jackson of Woburn, Massachusetts, guests drink six 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.480 and a half barrels of cider, twenty five gallons of wine, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.919 two gallons of brandy, and four gallons of rome. Yeah, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.080 and that was just for the guy becoming a minister. 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.440 You know, our Boston listeners right now, we're like that's right. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:27.359 They're like, well, that's wicked awesome. So and then in 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.480 the eighteenth century there was everybody's just drink and drink 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.720 and drinking for fun. Then the eighteenth century some people 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:34.800 are like, you know what, I kind of have to 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.880 have four gallons of brandy help me. And then we 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.480 started to get this idea that there was such thing 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.120 as addiction, but it wasn't the person. It was on 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.360 the substance, right, Yeah, it's the absinthe or the opium. 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:50.520 You know, those were like the drugs of choice back 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.400 in the day. That's the problem. Those things are evil 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.039 and they're bad, right And um, Actually, opium addiction was 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.120 so widespread. Did you see that little sidebar at not 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.080 opium addiction. Opium was everywhere, right, like you could get 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.479 it in any kind of tincture, tonic for any kind 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:11.240 of malady whatsoever. Um. And so many middle aged women 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.880 became hooked on morphine and opium that it was seen 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.960 in the late nineteenth century as a woman's problem p 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.520 MS or menopause. Interesting, that's how people viewed addiction for 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.800 a while. But it went from the substance to the person. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.200 The character flawed, the dope fiend. Right. I thought it 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.560 went from the person to the substance. No, it went 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.080 from this I'm sorry, the substance to the person. So 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.400 it went from it's the problem of the substance to 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.400 the problem of the person. It's a character flaw, their 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.160 dope fiend. And then finally we arrive at the idea 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:48.440 that addiction is um a disease, a chronic disease, and 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.159 the person who is addicted is a sufferer, not a fiend. 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.719 That's where we are now for the most part. But 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:58.919 we still don't fully understand addiction. We have a pretty 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:00.680 good view of it, right, I feel like a lot 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.000 of things with the human body we explained, we always 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.040 lead in with like they sort of know, but they 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.360 sort of don't. Well, it's that it's that point where 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.000 all the pieces are on the table, we just haven't 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.280 put them all together. Remember, do you know why, Josh? Why? 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:16.600 Because the human body is a miracle. It's a big, 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.840 mysterious miracle. I mean when you think about it, really 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:22.160 about all the things going on in the brain and 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:24.119 the body, and the fact that you know it's wrapped 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:26.880 up in bones and skin. That sounds like intelligent design 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.240 to me. Well, there you have it. Have Do you 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.520 remember your theory of what happened to the Neanderthals? Uh? 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.760 Didn't they say they froze? I got thirsty. Yeah, they 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.840 got hot and thirsty and they died. Alright, Chuck, I 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.760 stand by that. So the whole point of addiction is 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:49.880 it hijacks the brains reward system, right, Yeah, the limbic system, 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.080 And that's exactly what it does. Josh. When you are 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.600 you know, born, and you're a human being, you learned 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.080 very quickly that you know you have to survive by 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.120 eating and sleeping and taking care of yourself. And that's 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.680 because it triggers the limbic system into shooting a little 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.320 dopamine out and your body says, hey, I like that, 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.240 I need to do that again. And that's what drugs do, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.480 except they do it two to ten times as much, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.400 and it's it's fault. It's fake. Dopa means like the 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.280 doggy treat of anything with the brain. Yeah, So if 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.520 you can get ten doggie treats yeah, immediately instead of 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.520 the one, then you take it. And then your brain says, boy, 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.960 this is great. I could get used to this. And 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.160 it does, right, And since we learn, we're pretty much 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.120 hardwired to learn from that release of dopamine to repeat 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:43.040 that behavior like reproduce or exercise or eat. Um. We 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.000 if we're getting ten times that amount, we pick it 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.880 up even quicker, like, Okay, well this crack cocaine makes 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.040 me feel really good, so I'm gonna try that. We 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.800 need it more and when it goes away, it makes 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.520 things a lot worse than just um sleepy because I 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.800 didn't get enough sleep. Well, we should say also that UM. 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.959 The current view of addiction, the brain disease model, right, 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.280 UM states that just because you try something doesn't mean 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.480 you're going to become addicted. The process or addiction is 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.880 a process, and a person goes from a user, crosses 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.240 a threshold at some point, uh, and becomes an addict. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.240 So a user and an addict, they're not synonymous. They 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.439 exist on two different parts of the spectrum of addiction 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.400 or spectrum of substance use interviews. Right used to be 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.520 assess that those are the two different words. Right, So, uh, 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.320 well you summed up the UM. I guess the way 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:42.760 that addiction works pretty succinctly chucked. Well, it becomes physically addictive. Basically, 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.160 you develop a dependency on this shot of dopamine, this 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.080 huge shot of dopamine, and your body needs it all 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.800 of a sudden sudden, and you you know, you lose control. Right, 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.640 And we should say that UM drugs generally, like all 0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:00.320 drugs of addiction, UM hijack the reward system. We talked 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.840 about other drugs. I can't remember in some other podcasts 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:08.440 that don't necessarily work the dopamine. Therefore, if they don't 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:13.880 necessarily produce addictive properties, right, Um, but those that do 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:20.600 hijack dopamine transmitters, they either stimulate dopaminees release and or 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:25.559 they bind to dopamine receptors and prevent its reuptake. Right, 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.640 So you've got a bunch of dopamine release and you've 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.280 got a bunch of its staying in between your synapses longer, 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.520 and then, like you said, you become dependent on that. 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.280 You want that feeling, Well, your brain does without even 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.120 if you don't even know this is going on, your 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.679 brain is saying to your body, you need to go 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.360 out and get more of that because that was really awesome. Right, 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.040 Because your reward system is uh, it's it's there to 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.400 motivate us to do stuff or to or to do stuff. 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.199 That's the reward system. So yeah, like you said, um, 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:02.360 your your priorities become prioritized and drugs get to be 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.839 four or whatever that substance or behavior is. Right. Well, yeah, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:10.880 you always hear um. Like the hardcore abusers of heroin 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.360 or cocaine, it literally they say it overtakes your life. 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.240 To where your job is to every day get the 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.360 money that you can find the draw and find the 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.600 drugs so you can use the drugs. It's a full 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.400 time deal. And so you've got you've got the hangover withdrawal. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:30.400 That's where your dopamine UM. Basically your brains like, Okay, 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.840 I've sense that something artificial is going on, so I'm 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.240 going to stop producing as much and you're gonna have 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.199 to go through a horrible little period. That's the withdrawal 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.760 or hangover. Right. Then you've got physical dependency and at 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.480 at about this point you've crossed over into addictive. Being 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.920 an addict, you're not a user anymore. Once you have 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:54.439 physical dependency UM. And that's where because your brain is 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.360 not producing that dopamine naturally any longer, and you write 0:11:57.559 --> 0:11:59.960 the withdrawal or the hangover so bad that you can't 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.920 stand it, you will do more. And at that point 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.880 you're like Crusty the clown with moon rocks. You're just 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.440 getting back to normal, you know. Now you're physically dependent. 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.400 That's like, that's the key. I'm not sure if that's 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.120 getting through to all, because I can picture people out 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.560 there looking concerned and bewildered. Right now, your brain actually 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.520 stops producing dopamine if it's getting it, you know, an 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.400 unnatural way, because you know, I don't even make it anymore, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.040 but there's enough of it out there floating around, all right. 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.120 It's just so messed up. You're literally tricking your brain 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.800 into doing something that it should be doing naturally. Right, 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.520 And that's why with a lot of drugs, getting high, 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.720 getting that high, Uh, it's harder and harder, and harder 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.880 and harder, sure well or easier. There's that flip side 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:42.720 to which I thought was interesting. It is, and I 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.760 don't fully understand it. I don't. I don't feel bad 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:46.800 because I don't think science fully understands it either. But 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.920 that's two symptoms of physical addiction. Um. Either you need 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.719 more to get high, or you need far less than 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.199 you ever did before. I would think if you're an attitude, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.200 you'd want to use the second one. You'd be like, man, 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.360 I can get high of two dollars worth the heroin 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.320 like I used to need. Unfortunately, don't get that choice though, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.800 UM now because of this, because your brain has been 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.400 basically hijacked by this drug, and I hate I guess 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:17.080 we probably shouldn't anthropomorphize drugs, not actually hijacking anything, but 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.760 because your brain's reward system has been reprioritized to serve 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:28.200 this drug. Um, the whole point of treating addiction. And 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.960 I actually wrote a companion article on this how rehab works. 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.720 That's pretty interesting. Um, was that based on your experience 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:38.400 and rehab? Uh? No, no, no, not true. Um, the 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.400 point of treating addiction is in most cases to just 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.400 completely discontinue use, which is called abstinence. Right, Yeah, for 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.000 most all addiction. Abstinence is the way to go for 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.280 of course, like eating addictions and stuff like that. Right. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.680 And sex addiction. Yeah, they don't want you to never 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.280 have sex again. No, because I have a problem with 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.280 sex addiction. Okay, I have a problem, But I have 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.920 a problem with everyone saying all these athletes are sex 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.240 addicts because they cheat their wise. Oh yeah, I would 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.880 think that's probably the most exploited addiction of Sure, Josh, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.720 we're talking about addiction. What are some of these symptoms 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.839 of addiction? How do you know if you're an addict? Well, 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.840 there's two types that there's physical and behavioral. And I 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.760 should say those two types are specific to substances of abuse, right, 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:28.440 you can have and or physical or behavioral if you're 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:34.720 doing like coke or heroin or drinking with behavior behavioral 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.880 addictions behaviors, it's just behavioral. But that doesn't mean it's 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.200 any less addictive. That doesn't any less addictive or harmful 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.600 to you, know your life. Right, But we said one 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.120 of the one of the physical symptoms is that you 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.000 either need more or less of the drug. Right, that's right. Um, 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.240 that's a physical symptoms. Then there's a lot of stuff 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:59.720 that you could easily guess, um, trouble sleeping, sweating, hand 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.040 amer's nausea, physical agitation, that's if you don't have the 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.320 substance in your body. Right, those are the withdrawal. Basically, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.480 your body's telling you, like, go do more because we 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.640 don't feel good right now. And you get that from 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:18.800 everything from alcohol to uh cigarettes to caffeine. Caffeine headaches 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.040 are supposed to be pretty bad, right. I've heard, like, 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.440 I've heard people that try to kick diet coke. It 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.720 can be pretty awful. I've um, I've had caffeine headaches before. 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.240 They're not that bad, but I have heard of people 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.040 who really suffer from them. Yeah. Um, so the physical, 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.280 the physical stuff. Really it's using more or less or 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.480 just using to get back to normal. That's physical addiction. 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.600 And then you know, anything that that happens to your 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.560 body as a result of using your abusing a drug, 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.080 that's physical behavioral, which is also called psychological symptoms. UM 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:58.560 is the stuff that happens to your life basically, Well, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.320 it's um. You may have tried to quit doing whatever 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.840 this behavior is, whether it's gambling or overeating or sex, 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.080 and uh, you're not able to. So that's one of 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.720 the traits. So you're not gonna have much success there, 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.360 or maybe you spend more time doing it where to 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.240 the point where it's like you know, you might lose 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.040 your job or go broke or something like that. Those 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:25.440 are all behavioral traits. What else, well, you um, basically, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.440 you're still using this stuff even though you know it's 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.240 having a harmful impact on you or your life for others. 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.200 Or you might stop doing stuff that's good for you, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.200 Like it used to be a jogger, but then my 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.000 sex addiction became so great. Don't even jog anymore. Now, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.560 just have sex all the time and play professional football. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.720 Um and chuck. Because of this, this brain disease model 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:52.480 that we talked about, because these of these symptoms um. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.960 The view of addiction as it stands today, the most 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.640 widely held model is the brain disease model, and the 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.960 basis of that is that addiction is a chronic disease. Right, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:07.080 So as such, just like say asthma or tuberculosis or whatever, 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:12.560 you're gonna have flare ups relapse, right, Yeah, it's relapse 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.080 with addiction. And so if you go into treatment, you 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.320 need to have like booster sessions as well. After you're 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.119 cured or clean or whatever. Well, yeah, that's just the 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:22.960 sort of the basis of a right. You still gotta 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.680 go those meetings, right, which is why I think it's 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:30.240 so radically successful. And the LSD and the coffee, right, 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.359 that should be out by now, I think otherwise people 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.199 can go what I need to get to A I 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:38.800 had a a a joke, but I'm not gonna tell it. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.400 That's a good chuck. We've both grown up so much, 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.760 haven't we, Yes, in the past thirty minutes. Uh, what 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.720 else we got here, josh Um Behavioral psychologists, they used 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.439 to think that, I thought this was really interesting. They 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.480 sort of understand addiction a little bit, but they used 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.040 to think that if you just tried drugs in the 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.960 first place, drugs or alcohol or any kind of addictive substance, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.560 then there was just something wrong with you. But there's 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.040 actually genetic basis for even that, not even whether or 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.040 not you get addicted, but whether you try it to 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.760 begin with. Well, yeah, it's not just that, Like genetics 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.600 is one of a number of risk factors. There's also 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.879 like your susceptibility to peer pressure, your feelings of self 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.760 worth at that moment or at that period in your life. Um, 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.800 there are like if you have anxiety or depression that's 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.240 been shown to increase the likelihood that you're going to 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.200 try drugs. Um. So it's not just like a kid's 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.159 like I'll try this, let's see what happens. Uh That 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.160 that's how they used to see it. Now they see 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.760 it as like, no, there's some there's some other uh 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:45.560 comorbid factors going on. It's both nature and nurture. So, 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.920 like a good example would be like, um, if you 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.359 start having sex to increase your sense of self worth, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.600 that could lead to a sex addiction. That that low 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.639 self esteem would be a risk factor that led you 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.800 into your sexy right or if you're depressed and you 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.560 just self medicate, right, or if you try drugs and 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.399 you're like, wow, I really really like these, that's another 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.000 one for sure. Right. So we were talking about UM 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:15.199 physical and behavioral symptoms, right, UM again, under the current 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:19.600 brain disease model of addiction, UM, the the basically the 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:27.800 double whammy is UM psychological dependence, right, because it has 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:32.400 not only an effect on the person, it has effect 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.800 on the society as well. So like the person's life 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.080 can be ruined by addiction, but they may also commit 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:42.520 crime to feed their addiction, or their break up their 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.520 family on a personal level, or both, or commit violence 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.879 the worst, the worst one is psychological or behavioral, which 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:59.240 makes both substances of abuse and compulsive behaviors addictive behaviors 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.840 UM equally bad. Well yeah, and what that means is 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.240 is you can't say you can't be one of these hardliners. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.159 It just says, you know, if someone wants to go 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.160 out and kill themselves on dope, then that's their business, right. Well, yeah, 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:10.639 because there's a lot of other things going on. It's 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.760 a great argument against it, but their impacts. Right, But 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.119 it's prohibition. The answer, It certainly wasn't what alcohol was 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.800 it's not work. You know why, because no one stopped drinking. 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.600 Profiction didn't really go over too well. So, Chuck, you 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.879 want to talk about some specific drugs and behaviors that 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.880 people get addicted to. You. Yeah, we've talked about meth 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.280 a little bit and what a stupid thing that is 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.000 to try. Right, What what was that in our big 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:39.920 anti meth rant I think it was when we did 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.879 the meth Labs crime scene clean up. Meth ampheta means um, 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.000 the good news is the US is going down. It 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.080 looks like yeah, which surprises me. I would have thought 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.000 it would be steady or still going up. Well, maybe 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.240 people aren't starting to realize that. It's not very smart. 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:58.280 But they actually study brain patterns Josh of long term 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:03.080 meth users, and they they found that up to of 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:08.400 their dopamine producing cells were damaged or just shot. Yeah, 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:10.560 so you literally, I mean, I don't know if they 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.600 can regenerate you. That remains to be seen. Remember there's 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:16.840 that whole study on m D m A that got 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.240 it out law in the first place, about serotonin levels 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.359 being able to regenerate. I don't know. I don't I 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.040 don't think anybody knows yet. If we're capable of doing that, 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.639 We've not been studying it long enough. I think, just 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:29.760 let's get some stats going to while we're doing these. 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.160 But yeah, I was gonna say, Um, what's what's um 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:39.560 encouraging about meth prevalence is that it's cut in half. Uh, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:43.399 people who have used it in the past month. UM 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:46.639 has gone down from seven one thousand and two thousand 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.639 six and this is in the US to thousand and 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.240 two thousand eight. That's half of what it was. Yeah, 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.919 that's great, that's significant in two years that kind of dropped. 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.760 So yeah, I would say that the anti meth campaigns 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:05.359 are working, but they're all dying. Yeah, which is possible. Uh, 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.440 what's next. Prescription drugs? Now, those are on the rise. Yeah. 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.960 They're probably the most abused drug in the United States 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:15.399 because everybody's on them. There's a huge problem with the 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.520 elderly population basically getting hooked on meds. There's a huge 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.520 problem with the adolescent population basically getting hooked on their 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:27.879 grandparents meds. UM, and there's been a fourfold increase in 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:33.480 people checking into rehab who are on prescription medications uh 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.320 within the century, within the first decade, four four times 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:41.080 as many as there were before UM and in right, 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:47.560 two point two percent of people seeking treatment for any 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.320 kind of drugs were on prescription drugs, Josh. Also with 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:55.400