Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2: For many people around the world, this is one of
Speaker 2: the two most holy seasons of the year, Christmas and Easter.
Speaker 1: Without Easter, would Christmas even matter? And vice versa.
Speaker 2: Tonight the prosecution's case for Christ. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3: A mystery buried in time, from ancient scrolls to unmarked tombs.
Speaker 3: What may archaeological evidence reveal of Jesus of Nazareth?
Speaker 1: Is he real? Was he real? When we enter into the.
Speaker 2: Christmas season, we see Santa, we see Christmas trees in
Speaker 2: all different shapes and sizes, we see the granch. Well,
Speaker 2: where does Christ fit into this scenario? It's so easy
Speaker 2: to ignore the fact that Christmas is named after Christ?
Speaker 2: But is it just a myth something we're told since
Speaker 2: we're little children, and we're supposed to believe. I've conducted
Speaker 2: a very intense investigation, and tonight I make the case.
Speaker 1: For Christ with me an all star panel.
Speaker 2: But first I want to go out to a very
Speaker 2: special guest joining us.
Speaker 1: Billy Hollowell is joining us from New York.
Speaker 2: Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network and host of two
Speaker 2: podcasts Jesus and the Prophecies of Christmas and.
Speaker 1: Quick Start Wow okay, and author.
Speaker 2: Of Playing with Fire, and on and on. You know what,
Speaker 2: your resume is so long.
Speaker 1: I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2: I've got to get to the case for Christ first.
Speaker 2: I want to query. Have you noticed, Billy, that we
Speaker 2: are so predisposed to accept other historical facts, other historical writings.
Speaker 2: Let me see, off the top of my head, let
Speaker 2: me point to the Iliod in the Odyssey by Homer.
Speaker 2: Now that detailed the Trojan War and the death of
Speaker 2: the Trojan king Hector. However, Ilio and Odyssey was not
Speaker 2: written until about four hundred years after the Trojan War. Okay,
Speaker 2: but yet we choose to believe it's based in fact.
Speaker 2: I just happened to notice that the writings about Christ
Speaker 2: were contemporaneous with his life.
Speaker 1: Not Christian writings, but Jewish writings. Listen two of.
Speaker 4: The most important works of the Roman Jewish historian and
Speaker 4: military leader Flavius Josephus, our Jewish War, recounting the Jewish
Speaker 4: Revolt against Roman occupation and Antiquities of the Jews, that
Speaker 4: documents the history of the world from a Jewish perspective
Speaker 4: and was written for a mostly Greek and Roman audience.
Speaker 4: Josepha's historical works provide an independent account of individuals mentioned
Speaker 4: in biblical texts, such as Ponscious Pilot, Herod, the Great,
Speaker 4: John the Baptist, as well as documenting that James was
Speaker 4: the brother of Jesus of Nazareth and that Jesus was
Speaker 4: called the Christ.
Speaker 2: So these ancient writings, some around the time Christ lived,
Speaker 2: are very persuasive.
Speaker 5: What about it, Billy, Yeah, Well, you know, some people
Speaker 5: will say that the Jesus reference is in dispute. So
Speaker 5: even if you move that to the side, what you
Speaker 5: just showed there James the brother of Jesus, who was
Speaker 5: called the Christ, that is a line that is not disputed, right,
Speaker 5: And so what I make of that is that you
Speaker 5: have people speaking at the very same time or very
Speaker 5: nearby the time of Jesus. And you have to add
Speaker 5: into that as well all of the manuscripts you mentioned.
Speaker 5: You know, we take things at face value that are
Speaker 5: hundreds of years old. When you look at the manuscripts,
Speaker 5: and Lee Strobelvarius Stuteley said this, you have five thousand
Speaker 5: Greek New Testament fragments out there that back up precisely
Speaker 5: what we see in scripture. So the Bible is actually
Speaker 5: the most backed up literature that we have, ancient literature
Speaker 5: that we have, and people act as though that evidence
Speaker 5: isn't there when it very clearly is.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm very curious why so many people choose
Speaker 2: to ignore, as I call it evidence.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Let me go to Bishop Doctor Lodonna Osborne. She's the
Speaker 2: president and CEO of Osborne Ministries. She's the author of
Speaker 2: God's Big Picture and all of that aside. What impresses
Speaker 2: me the most about the bishop is she is ministered
Speaker 2: in over one hundred nations, among cultures completely different than
Speaker 2: her own, and ministering to the needy bishop.
Speaker 1: Why are we so predisposed like, if.
Speaker 2: You read it in a New England medical journal, then
Speaker 2: it's true, okay, or at least that's how I feel
Speaker 2: that that's got to be true. But with all of
Speaker 2: the historical writings about Christ that even occurred contemporaneously with
Speaker 2: his life, many.
Speaker 1: People don't want to believe that is all just a
Speaker 1: big story. Why why are we like that?
Speaker 6: I think it's interesting also that people would rather be
Speaker 6: suspicious about something that is so proven. Of course, what
Speaker 6: you've said about my life is true, and I have
Speaker 6: been among people of every religion, every ideology, every way
Speaker 6: of worship or would be called faith. And what is
Speaker 6: so interesting is that this search within people for truth,
Speaker 6: for deity, for a cosmic presence something that intrigues me.
Speaker 6: So there is something in humanity that is searching. Now
Speaker 6: when the subject of Jesus comes up. Why there would
Speaker 6: be such resistance, I don't know unless there is a
Speaker 6: spiritual dynamic. And this is where I would go, because
Speaker 6: my faith is based on the Scripture, and I've given
Speaker 6: my whole life bringing what we call the good news
Speaker 6: of what Jesus Christ did for humanity to people who
Speaker 6: are hopeless, people who are sick, people are who are
Speaker 6: really lost and depressed and in bondage of all kinds.
Speaker 6: I've seen more miracles of healing and deliverance than I
Speaker 6: could ever document. But the point is, I think there
Speaker 6: is a spiritual resistance to what is really the truth.
Speaker 1: Doctor Hayes. This issue our human nature to doubt.
Speaker 2: And I believe that I've seen real miracles in life
Speaker 2: that could not be explained in any other way than
Speaker 2: a miracle. Yet Thomas, who had lived with Christ, for Pete's.
Speaker 1: Sake, had seen the miracles, had heard the.
Speaker 2: Basically the heresy that Jesus was preaching, completely different from
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition and ideology.
Speaker 1: He saw all that, yet he doubted.
Speaker 2: And I think that that was really intentional, Danny, because
Speaker 2: we all doubt. We all have that in our nature.
Speaker 2: And we see how Christ addressed it, not by ridiculing Thomas,
Speaker 2: but by wooing him and continuing to love him.
Speaker 1: So why is it.
Speaker 2: Danny, we as humans choose not to believe really hard
Speaker 2: evidence in the antiquities.
Speaker 7: Well, what I love about the Thomas episode is that
Speaker 7: what he doubts is the resurrection. So his other friends,
Speaker 7: the other apostles, have seen the resurrected Jesus, but he
Speaker 7: has it. Well, the resurrection of the dead is kind
Speaker 7: of a big, you know, contrary to normal event, and
Speaker 7: so we can understand Thomas having some reservations about Jesus
Speaker 7: being resurrected from the dead, but you're absolutely right in
Speaker 7: how Jesus handles it, and almost with some irony, Jesus
Speaker 7: picks up the same terms of Thomas. You know, he says,
Speaker 7: only if I can touch you know, the nail scarred hands,
Speaker 7: and Jesus says, find Thomas, come and come and touch this,
Speaker 7: and then brings Thomas to faith in that crucial event,
Speaker 7: the actual resurrection. So I think that story's in there
Speaker 7: for a purpose, just because we do we do have doubts.
Speaker 7: And you see all of the disciples stumble at some
Speaker 7: point or another in their walk with Jesus, but he
Speaker 7: reaffirms them. But they come out strengthened because of the encounter.
Speaker 7: And I think Thomas walks away from that meeting of
Speaker 7: the Lord much stronger in his faith because he's actually
Speaker 7: seen the resurrected Christ and touched.
Speaker 1: Him joining us.
Speaker 2: Also, in addition to Billie Hallowell and Bishop Osborne and
Speaker 2: doctor Hayes, is doctor Robert van Vorst, Doctor van Vorst,
Speaker 2: Professor Emeritis New Testament, Western Theological Seminary and author of
Speaker 2: Jesus Outside the New Testament and Introduction into Ancient Evidence.
Speaker 3: In Book eighteen, chapter three of Antiquities of the Jews,
Speaker 3: Flavius Josephus writes about this time there lived Jesus, a
Speaker 3: wise man, if indeed one not to call him a man,
Speaker 3: for he was one who performed surprising deeds and was
Speaker 3: a teacher of such people as accept the truth. Gladly,
Speaker 3: he won over many Jews and many of the Greeks
Speaker 3: he was the Christ. Josephus also describes how Jesus was
Speaker 3: condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilot, and after his crucifixion,
Speaker 3: appeared to his followers three days later.
Speaker 2: That is, Professor van Horst, extremely probative in my mind,
Speaker 2: And you have to understand where I'm coming from. As
Speaker 2: a longtime felony prosecutor, I would never put up anything
Speaker 2: in front of a jury that I could not prove
Speaker 2: to a mathematical certainty, such as two and two equals four.
Speaker 2: I could never ask a jury, look, I said it,
Speaker 2: so you just believe it.
Speaker 1: Okay, just just trust me.
Speaker 2: That doesn't work, And in my world that doesn't work.
Speaker 2: So I have been on a lifetime search for evidence
Speaker 2: to support the case for Christ.
Speaker 1: What do you think, doctor van.
Speaker 8: Horst, Well, I think that you're on the right track here, Nancy,
Speaker 8: that Josephus and a lot of other Jewish writings give
Speaker 8: us a good deal of evidence for saying that Jesus
Speaker 8: actually existed, that he worked miracles. Now, Jewish leaders of
Speaker 8: the time explained those miracles differently, But miracles in a
Speaker 8: sense they were, well, didn't.
Speaker 1: They believe that they were magic?
Speaker 8: Right, right? Magic done by magic or with the cooperation
Speaker 8: of Satan. But that sort of dooms that those miracles
Speaker 8: are in some sense real. Jesus did, as Josepha says,
Speaker 8: wonderful things. Whether he confessed and actually believed himself that
Speaker 8: Jesus was the Christ, you know, that sort of a
Speaker 8: statement that a Christian would make, and some historians have
Speaker 8: doubted that that is actually what he thought. But anyway,
Speaker 8: because in the other passages that he treats Jesus he
Speaker 8: calls in the so called Christ. But anyway, we get
Speaker 8: a lot of good evidence that Jesus is real. Yes,
Speaker 8: that Jesus started a movement. Yes, that Jesus worked things
Speaker 8: that are wonderful. Yes, And in a sense Jesus is
Speaker 8: the Christ and the son of God. So these right there.
Speaker 2: You did a little bit of a jump van Horst,
Speaker 2: because you went from ancient biblical writings, well know, ancient
Speaker 2: Jewish writings that state clearly, and this was contemporaneous with
Speaker 2: Christ life, that he did live, Okay, that he performed
Speaker 2: miracles which they attributed to either satan or magic. So
Speaker 2: based on that we know he lived, we know he
Speaker 2: lived where he said he lived at the time. The
Speaker 2: Bible says he lived, and that he performed miracles a sort.
Speaker 1: We know all of that.
Speaker 2: And also in these writings, if we're to believe ancient artifacts,
Speaker 2: it's described how he was put to death after creating
Speaker 2: a movement listen.
Speaker 4: In his twenty volume History of the Jewish People, Flavius
Speaker 4: Josephus identifies the victim of an unlawful execution as James,
Speaker 4: the brother of Jesus, who is called Messiah. Josephus also
Speaker 4: describes a man who did surprising deeds and was condemned
Speaker 4: to be crucified by Pilot in Annals of Imperial Rome.
Speaker 4: First century historian and Roman senator Tacitus also mentions jesus crucifixion,
Speaker 4: writing Emperor Nero falsely blamed the persons commonly called Christians,
Speaker 4: who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of
Speaker 4: the name, was put to death by Punch's pilot, procurator
Speaker 4: of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.
Speaker 3: A piece of cloth, a slab of stone, and the
Speaker 3: accounts of a Crucifixion. Archaeologists and historians examine evidence for
Speaker 3: the existence of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1: Is he real? Could he possibly have risen from the dead? Well?
Speaker 1: What about this theory.
Speaker 2: Radical in some circles that Christ had brothers and sisters?
Speaker 1: Listen.
Speaker 3: On October twenty one, two thousand and two, the existence
Speaker 3: of the ausuary of James, the brother of Jesus was announced.
Speaker 3: It's a first century limestone box that was used for
Speaker 3: containing the bones of the dead. The authenticity of the
Speaker 3: ashuary or bone box of James is not in question,
Speaker 3: just the inscription engraved in Aramaic that, when translated, means James,
Speaker 3: son of Joseph, his brother of Jesus. To eminent paleographer
Speaker 3: specializing in dating, interpreting, and authenticating inscriptions determined the inscription
Speaker 3: was authentic. Didn't matter to the Israeli antiquities authority charged
Speaker 3: over At Golan, the owner of the ausuary, with forgery.
Speaker 3: The trial lasted seven years. Golan was acquitted and put
Speaker 3: the ausuary on display.
Speaker 2: Okay, So if this is the ausuary or the tomb
Speaker 2: or the box containing the remains of James, the brother
Speaker 2: of Christ, why is it so difficult for many people
Speaker 2: to believe that Mary mother, Mary had there are children
Speaker 2: straight out to Billie Hollwell, what about it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is interesting because obviously Catholics and Protestants have
Speaker 5: very different ideas on this. I'm an Evangelical, so I've
Speaker 5: always grown up without any problem seeing Jesus as having
Speaker 5: had siblings. And in fact, I think a reading of
Speaker 5: Scripture in multiple areas Matthew Luke Mark it talks about
Speaker 5: Jesus's mother and brothers, and some will say, well, those
Speaker 5: brothers were you know, cousins or they were close relatives,
Speaker 5: but that doesn't seem to be the case when you
Speaker 5: look at the original language. So I think it is interesting.
Speaker 5: I think it has to do with the vision of
Speaker 5: Mary as seeing Mary as pure, but there's nothing impure
Speaker 5: about getting married and having children, right, And so after
Speaker 5: she had Jesus.
Speaker 1: You left out a sex part.
Speaker 2: Billy, he was actually gonna go get married and suddenly
Speaker 2: there's a baby.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you bring that
Speaker 5: up because in Matthew one you actually see Joseph. He
Speaker 5: gets the message from the angel right, and he goes
Speaker 5: and he takes Mary home as his wife, though he
Speaker 5: could have not done that. I'm sure he was terrified
Speaker 5: and petrified and angry when he found out that she
Speaker 5: was with child. But it says in Matthew one twenty
Speaker 5: four to twenty five, but he did not consummate their
Speaker 5: marriage until she gave birth to a son, and that
Speaker 5: son is Jesus. So you have that verse as well.
Speaker 5: That definitely seems to indicate that they had other children,
Speaker 5: or they at least did, you know, consummate their marriage
Speaker 5: at some point, you know.
Speaker 2: And I'd like to point out to doctor Danny Hayes,
Speaker 2: that makes Mary an unwed mother. Okay, I find that
Speaker 2: fascinating because in our society, unwed mothers are frowned upon.
Speaker 2: They're looking down upon a horrible way. Yet, if Christ
Speaker 2: is to be believed, which I do, he is the
Speaker 2: product of an unwed mother. Now, I mean, how much
Speaker 2: more clearly could Christ speak to us. He's born to
Speaker 2: an unwed mother, to a carpenter. He becomes a carpenter, right,
Speaker 2: And of course where he grew up.
Speaker 1: There were not a lot of trees.
Speaker 2: It's in the desert, So I don't know what carpenter
Speaker 2: really means.
Speaker 1: An odd job, guy, I don't know what that means. Then,
Speaker 1: who does he pick for his followers? Uneducated men from
Speaker 1: the waterfront, That's who he picks.
Speaker 2: What could be more profound is starting a movement that
Speaker 2: survives centuries. It's centuries and centuries, then coming to the
Speaker 2: world like that, choosing those disciples. It really speaks to
Speaker 2: me that if Christ would pick an unwed mother and
Speaker 2: a group of un educated men off the waterfront, then
Speaker 2: maybe there's hope for the rest of us that maybe
Speaker 2: we could fit in.
Speaker 7: Well, you're certainly right in that the birth of Jesus
Speaker 7: was surrounded with scandal uh and born you know, of Mary,
Speaker 7: with the scandals that would have come with that, uh.
Speaker 9: And the the the humble beginnings and birth of Jesus,
Speaker 9: of course, were fulfilling those prophecies of Isaiah that proclaimed
Speaker 9: that this coming Messiah would not be born in the
Speaker 9: king's palace but would.
Speaker 7: Be born with a humble origin. So we see that
Speaker 7: fulfilling the prophecies. His life as a carpenter, of course,
Speaker 7: taught him lots of things. You know. While you're right
Speaker 7: about there not being a lot of trees, we suspect
Speaker 7: he was a stonemason, uh, and growing up in Nazareth,
Speaker 7: was not but a short walk to the big city
Speaker 7: of Sephoris, which was under construction during that time. In
Speaker 7: Jesus and his dad Joseph probably walked down to Sephoris
Speaker 7: day and worked as Stonemasons while that city was being constructed.
Speaker 7: So him growing up as a hard working Stonemason with
Speaker 7: humble origins. Certainly he was a messiah and a savior
Speaker 7: that came for all people in all situations. And never,
Speaker 7: never does the New Testament ever suggest some kind of
Speaker 7: elitism of the Christians who follow him. But it's a
Speaker 7: call for everybody, all walks of life, in all economic
Speaker 7: stratus are the ones who are called to follow him,
Speaker 7: and he certainly understands our pain and suffering in every situation.
Speaker 2: You know, I want to go to Bishop doctor Lodonna
Speaker 2: Osborne speaking of the existence of siblings. Again, as a
Speaker 2: lowly Methodist, I don't have a problem with that at all.
Speaker 2: In fact, we are taught to believe that Christ is
Speaker 2: divine and human, and it would be absolutely human to
Speaker 2: have siblings. Now, my Catholic friend vehemently disagree with me,
Speaker 2: but it sounds like a real life Da Vinci Code scenario.
Speaker 3: There has long been a question about the siblings of Jesus.
Speaker 3: The New Testament clearly states Jesus had four brothers, James, Jude, Joseph,
Speaker 3: and Simon. It also states Jesus had sisters plural, but
Speaker 3: doesn't name them. After jesus death, Beryl and resurrection, James
Speaker 3: becomes the early leader of the church in Jerusalem until
Speaker 3: he's martyred by being thrown off the temple and club
Speaker 3: to death or stoned. Jude, Joseph, and Simon were all
Speaker 3: married and all became traveling evangelist. The sisters of Jesus
Speaker 3: are not named, nor is there any specific information provided
Speaker 3: about them.
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2: Okay, so once again the women just don't exist.
Speaker 1: But that said, this is what I'm talking.
Speaker 2: About, a real life Da Vinci Code scenario.
Speaker 1: Listen.
Speaker 3: Is it possible that blood descendants of Jesus Christ brothers
Speaker 3: and sisters exist today? Maybe it depends on the denomination
Speaker 3: Catholics absolutely not other Christian dominations. Maybe Joseph was not
Speaker 3: jesus biological father, but Mary is his biological mother. Each
Speaker 3: of his blood brothers was a half brother, and each
Speaker 3: of their children would have been a partial blood relative
Speaker 3: of Jesus. However, following the natural family tree. All humans
Speaker 3: come from Adam and Eve, and in that regard we
Speaker 3: are all related.
Speaker 2: To doctor van Horst, what do you make the recalcitrants
Speaker 2: to believe that Christ had brothers and sisters?
Speaker 1: And if that is true, wouldn't.
Speaker 2: There be evidence of their lives? Much as we see
Speaker 2: James burial box.
Speaker 8: Right, we have evidence that Jesus did have brothers and
Speaker 8: sisters in scripture and in archaeology. The much larger question
Speaker 8: about whether any of them their descendants still exist today.
Speaker 8: That would really take sort of a DNA test, and
Speaker 8: I'm sort of wondering how would that be done and
Speaker 8: is it in fact provable, you know, if you're talking
Speaker 8: about physical descent. But I like the bishop's idea that
Speaker 8: in Christ, in faith, we are all brothers and sisters
Speaker 8: of Jesus Christ, and that for us is probably the
Speaker 8: much bigger and more important religious question than sort of
Speaker 8: the Da Vinci Code mystery that some descendants of Mary
Speaker 8: could still be walking on the face of the earth,
Speaker 8: you know, and the religious significance of that pales in
Speaker 8: comparison with present faith in Jesus, which makes us brothers
Speaker 8: and sisters.
Speaker 10: Croud of Turin has been the source of argument and
Speaker 10: study since it was first on display in thirteen eighty nine.
Speaker 10: In twenty twenty two, researchers in Italy using a new
Speaker 10: dating technique known as wide angle X race gathering, indicated
Speaker 10: that the shroud was about two thousand years old. The
Speaker 10: shroud is kept in a climate controlled case in the
Speaker 10: cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. The
Speaker 10: shroud is only rarely displayed. The last time was in
Speaker 10: twenty fifteen, but is expected to be on display in
Speaker 10: twenty twenty five as part of a jubilee twenty twenty
Speaker 10: five Holy Year.
Speaker 1: Is Christ real?
Speaker 2: Many argue the Shroud of Turin offers proof that he is,
Speaker 2: while others say, no, it's a hoax. Joining me is
Speaker 2: Guy Powell, host of the Backstory on the Shroud of
Speaker 2: Turin and author of the Only Witness, a History of
Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turin. Guy, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2: Tell me the pros and the cons of the Shroud
Speaker 2: of Turan.
Speaker 11: Well, the pros are that it has an image on
Speaker 11: a cloth, and some would say it's miraculous. For those
Speaker 11: of us that believe that the shroud is authentic, that
Speaker 11: image that you see there has a face, it has
Speaker 11: a body, It has the whip marks, It has the
Speaker 11: wounds in the hands and in the side, the side
Speaker 11: that Thomas put his fingers on, it has wounds in
Speaker 11: the feet. All of those wounds reflect the story that's
Speaker 11: found in the gospels, and in particular, the one that's
Speaker 11: also in the Gospels that you don't see on other
Speaker 11: crucifixion historical evidence is the crown of thorns, and that
Speaker 11: may be the one historical difference that really helps to
Speaker 11: prove first of all the gospel stories and then that
Speaker 11: the Shroud of Turin is real. Now there are some skeptics. Well,
Speaker 11: there's a lot of skeptics. There's been various different studies done,
Speaker 11: one on radioactivity and using radiocarbon dating, and this latest
Speaker 11: study that you mentioned, the waxs the white area X
Speaker 11: ray scattering, seems to prove with many, many, many other
Speaker 11: studies that the shroud is two thousand years old, that
Speaker 11: there is blood on it, that it reflects the gospel story,
Speaker 11: and therefore is to a very high likelihood the authentic
Speaker 11: burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I think a lot of people have the
Speaker 2: same question I did when I first learned about the shroud.
Speaker 2: How did Christ's image end up on the cloth?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is.
Speaker 11: You know, one of the challenges that Shroud authenticis have
Speaker 11: and that's actually I think good news is we have
Speaker 11: not been able, as scientists, been able to figure out
Speaker 11: what caused that image, and so that kind of says
Speaker 11: that the image is not a man made image. There
Speaker 11: are no man made techniques that can make that image
Speaker 11: the way it's found on the shroud. So therefore, is
Speaker 11: it a miraculous image? I personally believe it is. It
Speaker 11: is to me the only witness to the resurrection, the
Speaker 11: singular event that that proves Christianity, that that Christ was
Speaker 11: both man and God. And that image then, because it's miraculous,
Speaker 11: is uh, you know, probably will never be proven by
Speaker 11: man that what caused it or how to recreate it.
Speaker 11: It's it's just a it's it's an enigma that I
Speaker 11: don't think we'll be able to solve, at least not
Speaker 11: with current technology. And but it definitely shows the divine
Speaker 11: potentially the divine nature and then the human nature that
Speaker 11: that is Christ.
Speaker 2: Okay, Guy Powell, for those looking for evidence, I'm a
Speaker 2: three a hard question. Let me put you on the
Speaker 2: cross examination, hot seat, isn't it true that certain test
Speaker 2: performed on the shroud of Turan revealed let me just
Speaker 2: refer to as paint or paint really objects.
Speaker 1: That are not that old.
Speaker 11: Yes, that is correct. One of the things that happened
Speaker 11: over it's the shrouds history was well one of the
Speaker 11: things if you step back, if you touch a relic,
Speaker 11: whatever touches, that becomes what's called a secondary relic. And
Speaker 11: so what people would do.
Speaker 2: Is they wait, wh whoa whoa wait wait, wait a minute.
Speaker 2: What to me, it sounds like transfer DNA.
Speaker 1: Okay are you trying to say and regular people talk?
Speaker 2: Okay, Remember we're making a case for christ I'm not
Speaker 2: talking about what I want to believe when I'm comfortable believing.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about evidence, evidence that supports what we believe
Speaker 2: as Christians.
Speaker 1: Okay, because it's very hard.
Speaker 2: For me to sit around a Christmas tree or a
Speaker 2: Nativity scene if I don't really believe.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, those particles on the shroud.
Speaker 2: Of Turin which are not around the time of his death,
Speaker 2: we know that from carbon fourteen.
Speaker 1: You do believe in carbon fourteen testing, right, guy Powell?
Speaker 11: I do absolutely, That's a yester name.
Speaker 2: Ye, so yes, but you trust carbon fourteen. Don't make
Speaker 2: me cut your mic not on Christmas Eve, please. You
Speaker 2: do believe in carbon fourteen. Some of those particles were
Speaker 2: carbon fourteen tested and they showed that they are from
Speaker 2: much much much later, centuries later after Christ's death. Now,
Speaker 2: isn't it also true, Guy Powell, that you believe, as
Speaker 2: do I, that those more recent particles were from the
Speaker 2: storage of the shroud. In other words, if I put
Speaker 2: this piece of paper down, it's going to collect the
Speaker 2: DNA off where you know, the particles from where.
Speaker 1: I place it.
Speaker 2: So the theory is that those more recent particles are
Speaker 2: the storage method.
Speaker 11: Well, and that's where I was getting to is if
Speaker 11: that piece of paper that you put down had paint
Speaker 11: on it, that would transfer paint over to the shroud itself,
Speaker 11: and so those paint particles that you're talking about would
Speaker 11: have been transferred from another painted cloth that was made
Speaker 11: as a replica. Now you also mentioned the carbon fourteen dating.
Speaker 11: That is the I do believe the carbon fourteen dating
Speaker 11: is correct. The challenge is that the carbon fourteen dating
Speaker 11: that was done on the shroud was done very improperly.
Speaker 11: They didn't follow protocol, and it's possible that the sample
Speaker 11: that they took was in an area that had been
Speaker 11: repaired with modern material. And therefore the unfortunately that carbon
Speaker 11: dating that was done really needs to be thrown out,
Speaker 11: and all evidence points to the fact that it should
Speaker 11: be thrown out. They did the statistics wrong, they hid
Speaker 11: the data, and the end.
Speaker 1: Of the day, those they hide the data on the
Speaker 1: Shroud of Turin.
Speaker 11: Exactly why would they hide the data when we find
Speaker 11: that out?
Speaker 1: Who shot JFK?
Speaker 2: Who knows why the government hides anything?
Speaker 1: But that said, Guy Powell, are you.
Speaker 2: Satisfied that the Shroud of Turin's attacks have been disproved?
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
Speaker 11: I think there has not been one attack that has
Speaker 11: been proven to one hundred percent that it's that the
Speaker 11: the shroud is false. Every attack that's made, whether there's
Speaker 11: paint down there, whether there's radiocarbonating, every one of those
Speaker 11: has been proven to be false. And then you have,
Speaker 11: you know, many, many tens of tests that have been
Speaker 11: done that do indicate that it is from the first
Speaker 11: century and it dates to the first century. So so
Speaker 11: far there has not been one valid scientific proof to
Speaker 11: be able to say that the shroud itself is not authentic.
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3: Researchers have pointed out that there are no records for
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of the people that served in the
Speaker 3: Roman Empire, but there is evidence of Jesus found in
Speaker 3: an ancient piece of graffiti known as alex Aminos Graffito,
Speaker 3: carved into the wall of a room near the Palatine
Speaker 3: Hill in Rome somewhere between the first and third centuries AD.
Speaker 3: The drawing is of a man worshiping a donkey headed
Speaker 3: man hanging from across with the message that translates to
Speaker 3: alex Aminos worships his God. A leading authority on archaeology
Speaker 3: of early Christianity, doctor Jonathan Reed, tells The Daily Mail,
Speaker 3: the earliest evidence we have in the archaeological record for
Speaker 3: Christians is someone making fun of Jesus being crucified.
Speaker 2: Me to think of someone making fun of Christ dying
Speaker 2: on a cross. The Christian theory is that Christ allowed
Speaker 2: himself to be crucified so that now, centuries and centuries later,
Speaker 2: when we face death, we will have no fear because
Speaker 2: we know he endured the very same thing, if not worse,
Speaker 2: and lived on two Doctor Robert van Vorst joining us
Speaker 2: Professor Meredith New Testament Western Theological Seminary and author of
Speaker 2: Jesus Outside the New Testament, Doctor van Vorst, I want
Speaker 2: to explain to you as best as I can. I mean,
Speaker 2: you guys are the experts, not ma'am's trial lawyer. Why
Speaker 2: this evidence, the graffiti mocking Christ, to me is the
Speaker 2: most probative. Why unlike people, not you, guy Powell. Of
Speaker 2: course that advance. That's the legitimacy of the of the
Speaker 2: Shroud of Turin. Not other people invested in continuing the faith.
Speaker 2: They got a dog in the fight, right, they got
Speaker 2: skin in the game. This guy has nothing in it.
Speaker 2: This is graffiti carved onto a wall actually mocking Christ's
Speaker 2: crucifixion and people bowing down to worship him.
Speaker 1: And this was at the time of Christ. I find that.
Speaker 2: Considering the source to be more probative than a priest or, a.
Speaker 1: Preacher or no. This is someone a non believer who
Speaker 1: is accepting the story of Christ and even mocking it.
Speaker 8: Well, that's right. The whole graffito there points quite clearly
Speaker 8: that Jesus was an own to be crucified, that this
Speaker 8: crucified figure is worshiped by Alexaminos and of course he
Speaker 8: is made fun of in this graffido. Alexaminos is a
Speaker 8: young man and probably this graffito was put on the
Speaker 8: wall of a school or a building there on the
Speaker 8: Palatine Hill. And if you go to Rome today, you
Speaker 8: should go to the Palatine Museum and see that, because
Speaker 8: it's really quite striking and it testifies to us that
Speaker 8: Jesus was known widely in the ancient world, especially in Rome,
Speaker 8: as someone who was crucified, and his crucifixion called forth
Speaker 8: worship from his followers.
Speaker 2: And that's really interesting the way you just said that,
Speaker 2: doctor van Vorst, because people were crucified, that was not
Speaker 2: uncommon in the time upon just pilot, but people all
Speaker 2: the others that were crucified didn't get worshiped.
Speaker 1: That right, it's Christ apart. So I'm not at this point.
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone doubts that Christ existed. It's in
Speaker 2: all of the ancient Jewish manuscripts and more. We don't
Speaker 2: have any question that he was crucified. It's the resurrection
Speaker 2: part that is the let me just say, fly in
Speaker 2: the ointment.
Speaker 1: But here in this.
Speaker 2: Graffiti we see it's being made fun of. Of course
Speaker 2: that Christ is actually being worshiped. Why why is he
Speaker 2: different from everybody else that was crucified, whether on cole
Speaker 2: Gotha or not, Because he is and was different?
Speaker 1: Okay, far from some old age graffiti.
Speaker 2: Now an incredible mosaic has emerged.
Speaker 3: Listen to this, located beneath the floor of an Israeli prison,
Speaker 3: an eighteen hundred year old mosaic featuring the first written
Speaker 3: declaration of Jesus as God. The mosaic is five hundred
Speaker 3: and eighty one feet and decorated the world's first prayer
Speaker 3: haul in two thirty eight deep. It contains the ancient
Speaker 3: Greek phrase the god loving Aceptus has offered the table
Speaker 3: to God Jesus Christ as a memorial. Carlos Campos, the
Speaker 3: CEO of the Museum of the Bible, which recently exhibited
Speaker 3: the mosaic, hailed it as the greatest discovery since the
Speaker 3: Dead Sea scrolls.
Speaker 2: The prosecution's case for Christ, did he exist? I say yes,
Speaker 2: and I am schooled, schooled in bringing forth believable and
Speaker 2: credible evidence.
Speaker 1: What about eyewitnesses?
Speaker 2: Yes, I know in a court of law one eyewitness
Speaker 2: can easily be attacked.
Speaker 1: Were you wearing glasses? How far away were you? What
Speaker 1: were the.
Speaker 2: Lightning conditions that night? Isn't it true you have had
Speaker 2: cataracts in your left eye?
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: But what about five hundred witnesses joining a bishop?
Speaker 1: Doctor Lodonna Osborne?
Speaker 2: Could you speak to the hundreds of witnesses that saw
Speaker 2: Christ after the resurrection?
Speaker 6: Yes, that documentation giving evidence to the resurrection is undeniable.
Speaker 6: And then we can back it up to those who
Speaker 6: walked with Jesus in his earthly life and saw his miracles,
Speaker 6: heard his teaching, saw the divine and human expression of
Speaker 6: his life, and then they wrote. I know there's questions
Speaker 6: about actual authorship, but they were eyewitnesses that wrote and
Speaker 6: documented what we can call ancient literature. It still has survived,
Speaker 6: And Nancy, I think the fact that the Bible has
Speaker 6: even come to us in spite of all the human intervention,
Speaker 6: that's a miracle by itself.
Speaker 1: So yes, really is a Bishop Osborne? Billy Howell? What
Speaker 1: about it?
Speaker 2: I agree or disagree with Lodonna regards barring hundreds of
Speaker 2: witnesses as my job to attack witnesses in court, that's
Speaker 2: my job, and I believe my questions. I believe I'm
Speaker 2: doing the right thing, but five hundred witnesses and another thing,
Speaker 2: Hallowell people at that time, Billy Hallowell chose rather than
Speaker 2: denounce Christ, they chose to go into hiding, living in caves,
Speaker 2: uprooting their families because they saw him. Now that is
Speaker 2: certainly in dish of credibility.
Speaker 1: Billy, Yeah, I.
Speaker 5: Mean, would any sane person go to a brutal death?
Speaker 5: From what we know from tradition, John may be the
Speaker 5: only one who didn't have a brutal death, who had
Speaker 5: a peaceful death right all of his direct followers. But
Speaker 5: I want to address that question about the five hundred,
Speaker 5: because when you look at First Corinthians, which is where
Speaker 5: that story is, Paul probably wrote that around a D.
Speaker 5: Fifty five, Jesus died around a D. Thirty three. Let's say,
Speaker 5: so you're talking about twenty some odd years here. So
Speaker 5: most of the people that were in that five hundred,
Speaker 5: the Bible actually tells us a good chunk of them
Speaker 5: we're still alive. So here is Paul writing a letter
Speaker 5: making an outlandish claim that Jesus rose from the dead
Speaker 5: and appeared to five hundred people. And where are all
Speaker 5: the people to say, no, you're crazy, No, this is
Speaker 5: wrong everything we've documented in this show. There are people mocking,
Speaker 5: there are people calling Jesus a sorcerer, but nobody is
Speaker 5: denying these stories really right, We're not seeing denials. We're
Speaker 5: seeing people misplace what's happening, or have it wrong. I
Speaker 5: think it's pretty remarkable that Paul would write that letter
Speaker 5: with those people, hundreds of them very likely alive. It's
Speaker 5: a pretty bold thing to do if you're making up
Speaker 5: a lie. I find that one of the most compelling
Speaker 5: pieces of scripture.
Speaker 2: According to the Gospel, we are asked to live in faith.
Speaker 2: Many doubters say, well, why can't we just have proof.
Speaker 2: I guess if we had proof then we would be
Speaker 2: We wouldn't have.
Speaker 1: No free will, because it would be force fed to us.
Speaker 2: I think Christ asks for the faithful, not the robots
Speaker 2: who simply regurgitate what.
Speaker 1: They've been said. How do you explain that.
Speaker 8: Doctor van forest Well, I think that to look at
Speaker 8: the life of the disciples is good and the way
Speaker 8: that they died in faith and in obedience to Christ.
Speaker 8: Very early it became a point of belief that because
Speaker 8: Jesus died for us, we should be willing to die
Speaker 8: for him and when you look at all the thousands
Speaker 8: of martyrs in early Christian times who died for the faith,
Speaker 8: this was impressive to other people. Even the Roman writer Tacitus,
Speaker 8: whom he quoted earlier when he described Neurodian's Nero's persecution
Speaker 8: of Christians, said that a lot of people began to
Speaker 8: be sympathetic to Christians because they realized that Nero was
Speaker 8: going way over the top with us, and he was crucive.
Speaker 8: He was killing people in cruel ways for things that
Speaker 8: did not deserve death. And this was impressive to other people,
Speaker 8: you know, so much so that the early Christian theologian
Speaker 8: Tertullian said very famously the blood of the martyrs is
Speaker 8: the seed of the church. That the more they were killed,
Speaker 8: the more attention they got, the more faith was elicited
Speaker 8: in other people. And they had such a strong belief
Speaker 8: not only in Jesus dying for them, but Jesus was
Speaker 8: raised from the dead by God eternally, that the same
Speaker 8: thing would happen for them, that martyrdom would lead to
Speaker 8: resurrection and eternal life.
Speaker 2: The case for Christ we could argue about so called
Speaker 2: evidence till were blue in the faith, but too many
Speaker 2: it's a matter of faith. Nothing in the world is
Speaker 2: usually black or white, so many things cannot be proven,
Speaker 2: such as two and two equals four to a mathematical certainty.
Speaker 2: But it's very probative that in that time disciples and
Speaker 2: many others chose to die horrible deaths then recount the life,
Speaker 2: the Crucifixion, and the resurrection of Christ. I would submit
Speaker 2: that to a jury as probative. At this Christmas season,
Speaker 2: the truth of Christ, it's still in question for many,
Speaker 2: but as you gather around your Christmas tree, it's certainly
Speaker 2: something to not only question, to consider, but hopefully to believe.
Speaker 1: Merry Christmas. What is this s