WEBVTT - THE PROSECUTION'S CASE FOR CHRIST 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:02.599 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:10.280 For many people around the world, this is one of 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:16.480 the two most holy seasons of the year, Christmas and Easter. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:25.640 Without Easter, would Christmas even matter? And vice versa. 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:33.040 Tonight the prosecution's case for Christ. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.640 This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.440 A mystery buried in time, from ancient scrolls to unmarked tombs. 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.600 What may archaeological evidence reveal of Jesus of Nazareth? 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.920 Is he real? Was he real? When we enter into the. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.480 Christmas season, we see Santa, we see Christmas trees in 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:01.280 all different shapes and sizes, we see the granch. Well, 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.400 where does Christ fit into this scenario? It's so easy 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:11.840 to ignore the fact that Christmas is named after Christ? 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:18.839 But is it just a myth something we're told since 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.720 we're little children, and we're supposed to believe. I've conducted 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:29.640 a very intense investigation, and tonight I make the case. 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.080 For Christ with me an all star panel. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.240 But first I want to go out to a very 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:37.200 special guest joining us. 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.480 Billy Hollowell is joining us from New York. 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.440 Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network and host of two 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.240 podcasts Jesus and the Prophecies of Christmas and. 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.080 Quick Start Wow okay, and author. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.480 Of Playing with Fire, and on and on. You know what, 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:55.680 your resume is so long. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:56.720 I don't have time for that. 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.520 I've got to get to the case for Christ first. 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:05.880 I want to query. Have you noticed, Billy, that we 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:13.200 are so predisposed to accept other historical facts, other historical writings. 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:15.440 Let me see, off the top of my head, let 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:19.200 me point to the Iliod in the Odyssey by Homer. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:26.160 Now that detailed the Trojan War and the death of 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:31.080 the Trojan king Hector. However, Ilio and Odyssey was not 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:38.480 written until about four hundred years after the Trojan War. Okay, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:43.560 but yet we choose to believe it's based in fact. 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.120 I just happened to notice that the writings about Christ 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.240 were contemporaneous with his life. 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.120 Not Christian writings, but Jewish writings. Listen two of. 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.000 The most important works of the Roman Jewish historian and 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.720 military leader Flavius Josephus, our Jewish War, recounting the Jewish 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.480 Revolt against Roman occupation and Antiquities of the Jews, that 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.480 documents the history of the world from a Jewish perspective 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.239 and was written for a mostly Greek and Roman audience. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:18.040 Josepha's historical works provide an independent account of individuals mentioned 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.680 in biblical texts, such as Ponscious Pilot, Herod, the Great, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.760 John the Baptist, as well as documenting that James was 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.400 the brother of Jesus of Nazareth and that Jesus was 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:28.840 called the Christ. 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:34.680 So these ancient writings, some around the time Christ lived, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:36.760 are very persuasive. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.440 What about it, Billy, Yeah, Well, you know, some people 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.240 will say that the Jesus reference is in dispute. So 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:44.440 even if you move that to the side, what you 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.160 just showed there James the brother of Jesus, who was 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.800 called the Christ, that is a line that is not disputed, right, 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:52.320 And so what I make of that is that you 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.240 have people speaking at the very same time or very 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.480 nearby the time of Jesus. And you have to add 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.840 into that as well all of the manuscripts you mentioned. 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:03.680 You know, we take things at face value that are 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.840 hundreds of years old. When you look at the manuscripts, 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.920 and Lee Strobelvarius Stuteley said this, you have five thousand 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:15.920 Greek New Testament fragments out there that back up precisely 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.479 what we see in scripture. So the Bible is actually 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.200 the most backed up literature that we have, ancient literature 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.719 that we have, and people act as though that evidence 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:26.440 isn't there when it very clearly is. 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.880 You know, I'm very curious why so many people choose 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.040 to ignore, as I call it evidence. 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:35.720 You know. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.599 Let me go to Bishop Doctor Lodonna Osborne. She's the 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.560 president and CEO of Osborne Ministries. She's the author of 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.479 God's Big Picture and all of that aside. What impresses 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.599 me the most about the bishop is she is ministered 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:55.240 in over one hundred nations, among cultures completely different than 0:04:55.279 --> 0:05:01.080 her own, and ministering to the needy bishop. 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.720 Why are we so predisposed like, if. 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.240 You read it in a New England medical journal, then 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:11.720 it's true, okay, or at least that's how I feel 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.719 that that's got to be true. But with all of 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:20.479 the historical writings about Christ that even occurred contemporaneously with 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.239 his life, many. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:24.760 People don't want to believe that is all just a 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.080 big story. Why why are we like that? 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:33.120 I think it's interesting also that people would rather be 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.120 suspicious about something that is so proven. Of course, what 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.400 you've said about my life is true, and I have 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:45.520 been among people of every religion, every ideology, every way 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:50.520 of worship or would be called faith. And what is 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:56.000 so interesting is that this search within people for truth, 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.919 for deity, for a cosmic presence something that intrigues me. 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:06.279 So there is something in humanity that is searching. Now 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.520 when the subject of Jesus comes up. Why there would 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.720 be such resistance, I don't know unless there is a 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:17.360 spiritual dynamic. And this is where I would go, because 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.479 my faith is based on the Scripture, and I've given 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.000 my whole life bringing what we call the good news 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:29.640 of what Jesus Christ did for humanity to people who 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:34.240 are hopeless, people who are sick, people are who are 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:40.560 really lost and depressed and in bondage of all kinds. 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:45.480 I've seen more miracles of healing and deliverance than I 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.840 could ever document. But the point is, I think there 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:53.839 is a spiritual resistance to what is really the truth. 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:59.920 Doctor Hayes. This issue our human nature to doubt. 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:05.760 And I believe that I've seen real miracles in life 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.000 that could not be explained in any other way than 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:15.760 a miracle. Yet Thomas, who had lived with Christ, for Pete's. 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.520 Sake, had seen the miracles, had heard the. 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:25.040 Basically the heresy that Jesus was preaching, completely different from 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.720 hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition and ideology. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.800 He saw all that, yet he doubted. 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.720 And I think that that was really intentional, Danny, because 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.440 we all doubt. We all have that in our nature. 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:50.680 And we see how Christ addressed it, not by ridiculing Thomas, 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.240 but by wooing him and continuing to love him. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:57.720 So why is it. 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:04.400 Danny, we as humans choose not to believe really hard 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.000 evidence in the antiquities. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.000 Well, what I love about the Thomas episode is that 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.400 what he doubts is the resurrection. So his other friends, 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.400 the other apostles, have seen the resurrected Jesus, but he 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.520 has it. Well, the resurrection of the dead is kind 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.440 of a big, you know, contrary to normal event, and 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:28.360 so we can understand Thomas having some reservations about Jesus 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.800 being resurrected from the dead, but you're absolutely right in 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.720 how Jesus handles it, and almost with some irony, Jesus 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.800 picks up the same terms of Thomas. You know, he says, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.080 only if I can touch you know, the nail scarred hands, 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.560 and Jesus says, find Thomas, come and come and touch this, 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.520 and then brings Thomas to faith in that crucial event, 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.360 the actual resurrection. So I think that story's in there 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.320 for a purpose, just because we do we do have doubts. 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.480 And you see all of the disciples stumble at some 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.840 point or another in their walk with Jesus, but he 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.120 reaffirms them. But they come out strengthened because of the encounter. 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.680 And I think Thomas walks away from that meeting of 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.920 the Lord much stronger in his faith because he's actually 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.239 seen the resurrected Christ and touched. 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.679 Him joining us. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.679 Also, in addition to Billie Hallowell and Bishop Osborne and 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.800 doctor Hayes, is doctor Robert van Vorst, Doctor van Vorst, 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.760 Professor Emeritis New Testament, Western Theological Seminary and author of 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:38.480 Jesus Outside the New Testament and Introduction into Ancient Evidence. 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.480 In Book eighteen, chapter three of Antiquities of the Jews, 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.280 Flavius Josephus writes about this time there lived Jesus, a 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.960 wise man, if indeed one not to call him a man, 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.120 for he was one who performed surprising deeds and was 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.760 a teacher of such people as accept the truth. Gladly, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.559 he won over many Jews and many of the Greeks 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.800 he was the Christ. Josephus also describes how Jesus was 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.360 condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilot, and after his crucifixion, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:06.920 appeared to his followers three days later. 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:12.640 That is, Professor van Horst, extremely probative in my mind, 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.040 And you have to understand where I'm coming from. As 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:21.199 a longtime felony prosecutor, I would never put up anything 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.319 in front of a jury that I could not prove 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.520 to a mathematical certainty, such as two and two equals four. 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.439 I could never ask a jury, look, I said it, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.040 so you just believe it. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:36.440 Okay, just just trust me. 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:41.200 That doesn't work, And in my world that doesn't work. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.280 So I have been on a lifetime search for evidence 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.840 to support the case for Christ. 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:51.200 What do you think, doctor van. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:55.720 Horst, Well, I think that you're on the right track here, Nancy, 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.800 that Josephus and a lot of other Jewish writings give 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:03.079 us a good deal of evidence for saying that Jesus 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.400 actually existed, that he worked miracles. Now, Jewish leaders of 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.880 the time explained those miracles differently, But miracles in a 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.080 sense they were, well, didn't. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:15.559 They believe that they were magic? 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.000 Right, right? Magic done by magic or with the cooperation 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:26.120 of Satan. But that sort of dooms that those miracles 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.440 are in some sense real. Jesus did, as Josepha says, 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:34.000 wonderful things. Whether he confessed and actually believed himself that 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.920 Jesus was the Christ, you know, that sort of a 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:42.000 statement that a Christian would make, and some historians have 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.960 doubted that that is actually what he thought. But anyway, 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.120 because in the other passages that he treats Jesus he 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.839 calls in the so called Christ. But anyway, we get 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.760 a lot of good evidence that Jesus is real. Yes, 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:03.040 that Jesus started a movement. Yes, that Jesus worked things 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.480 that are wonderful. Yes, And in a sense Jesus is 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.959 the Christ and the son of God. So these right there. 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.720 You did a little bit of a jump van Horst, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.800 because you went from ancient biblical writings, well know, ancient 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:25.559 Jewish writings that state clearly, and this was contemporaneous with 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.440 Christ life, that he did live, Okay, that he performed 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:34.640 miracles which they attributed to either satan or magic. So 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.120 based on that we know he lived, we know he 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.120 lived where he said he lived at the time. The 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.960 Bible says he lived, and that he performed miracles a sort. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:48.280 We know all of that. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:53.280 And also in these writings, if we're to believe ancient artifacts, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:58.319 it's described how he was put to death after creating 0:12:58.520 --> 0:12:59.760 a movement listen. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.079 In his twenty volume History of the Jewish People, Flavius 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.000 Josephus identifies the victim of an unlawful execution as James, 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.439 the brother of Jesus, who is called Messiah. Josephus also 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.400 describes a man who did surprising deeds and was condemned 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.679 to be crucified by Pilot in Annals of Imperial Rome. 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:21.920 First century historian and Roman senator Tacitus also mentions jesus crucifixion, 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.319 writing Emperor Nero falsely blamed the persons commonly called Christians, 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.440 who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.439 the name, was put to death by Punch's pilot, procurator 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.120 of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.200 A piece of cloth, a slab of stone, and the 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:46.280 accounts of a Crucifixion. Archaeologists and historians examine evidence for 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.240 the existence of Jesus Christ. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:56.359 Is he real? Could he possibly have risen from the dead? Well? 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:57.760 What about this theory. 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:02.080 Radical in some circles that Christ had brothers and sisters? 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:02.760 Listen. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.679 On October twenty one, two thousand and two, the existence 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.559 of the ausuary of James, the brother of Jesus was announced. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.080 It's a first century limestone box that was used for 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.600 containing the bones of the dead. The authenticity of the 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.320 ashuary or bone box of James is not in question, 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.000 just the inscription engraved in Aramaic that, when translated, means James, 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.760 son of Joseph, his brother of Jesus. To eminent paleographer 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:28.720 specializing in dating, interpreting, and authenticating inscriptions determined the inscription 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.320 was authentic. Didn't matter to the Israeli antiquities authority charged 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.000 over At Golan, the owner of the ausuary, with forgery. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.680 The trial lasted seven years. Golan was acquitted and put 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:40.120 the ausuary on display. 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:45.160 Okay, So if this is the ausuary or the tomb 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:51.400 or the box containing the remains of James, the brother 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.520 of Christ, why is it so difficult for many people 0:14:55.560 --> 0:15:01.000 to believe that Mary mother, Mary had there are children 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.720 straight out to Billie Hollwell, what about it. 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.320 Yeah, this is interesting because obviously Catholics and Protestants have 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.840 very different ideas on this. I'm an Evangelical, so I've 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.240 always grown up without any problem seeing Jesus as having 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.200 had siblings. And in fact, I think a reading of 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.160 Scripture in multiple areas Matthew Luke Mark it talks about 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.440 Jesus's mother and brothers, and some will say, well, those 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.760 brothers were you know, cousins or they were close relatives, 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:28.640 but that doesn't seem to be the case when you 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.840 look at the original language. So I think it is interesting. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.120 I think it has to do with the vision of 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:37.800 Mary as seeing Mary as pure, but there's nothing impure 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.200 about getting married and having children, right, And so after 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:42.560 she had Jesus. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:43.800 You left out a sex part. 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.080 Billy, he was actually gonna go get married and suddenly 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:48.840 there's a baby. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.400 Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you bring that 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.760 up because in Matthew one you actually see Joseph. He 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.400 gets the message from the angel right, and he goes 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.280 and he takes Mary home as his wife, though he 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.360 could have not done that. I'm sure he was terrified 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.600 and petrified and angry when he found out that she 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.640 was with child. But it says in Matthew one twenty 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.960 four to twenty five, but he did not consummate their 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.720 marriage until she gave birth to a son, and that 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.240 son is Jesus. So you have that verse as well. 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.920 That definitely seems to indicate that they had other children, 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.680 or they at least did, you know, consummate their marriage 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.960 at some point, you know. 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.000 And I'd like to point out to doctor Danny Hayes, 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:35.000 that makes Mary an unwed mother. Okay, I find that 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:41.440 fascinating because in our society, unwed mothers are frowned upon. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:47.640 They're looking down upon a horrible way. Yet, if Christ 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:53.080 is to be believed, which I do, he is the 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:58.280 product of an unwed mother. Now, I mean, how much 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.960 more clearly could Christ speak to us. He's born to 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:09.359 an unwed mother, to a carpenter. He becomes a carpenter, right, 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.440 And of course where he grew up. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:16.960 There were not a lot of trees. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.720 It's in the desert, So I don't know what carpenter 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:20.840 really means. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.520 An odd job, guy, I don't know what that means. Then, 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:31.120 who does he pick for his followers? Uneducated men from 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.800 the waterfront, That's who he picks. 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:40.600 What could be more profound is starting a movement that 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:47.639 survives centuries. It's centuries and centuries, then coming to the 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:53.919 world like that, choosing those disciples. It really speaks to 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:59.560 me that if Christ would pick an unwed mother and 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.720 a group of un educated men off the waterfront, then 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.080 maybe there's hope for the rest of us that maybe 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:06.840 we could fit in. 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.360 Well, you're certainly right in that the birth of Jesus 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.800 was surrounded with scandal uh and born you know, of Mary, 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.000 with the scandals that would have come with that, uh. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:24.080 And the the the humble beginnings and birth of Jesus, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:28.119 of course, were fulfilling those prophecies of Isaiah that proclaimed 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:30.960 that this coming Messiah would not be born in the 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:32.679 king's palace but would. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.119 Be born with a humble origin. So we see that 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.760 fulfilling the prophecies. His life as a carpenter, of course, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.240 taught him lots of things. You know. While you're right 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:43.679 about there not being a lot of trees, we suspect 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.399 he was a stonemason, uh, and growing up in Nazareth, 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.359 was not but a short walk to the big city 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.480 of Sephoris, which was under construction during that time. In 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:59.800 Jesus and his dad Joseph probably walked down to Sephoris 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.400 day and worked as Stonemasons while that city was being constructed. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.760 So him growing up as a hard working Stonemason with 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:14.760 humble origins. Certainly he was a messiah and a savior 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.440 that came for all people in all situations. And never, 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.720 never does the New Testament ever suggest some kind of 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.080 elitism of the Christians who follow him. But it's a 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.080 call for everybody, all walks of life, in all economic 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.560 stratus are the ones who are called to follow him, 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.480 and he certainly understands our pain and suffering in every situation. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.680 You know, I want to go to Bishop doctor Lodonna 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:45.199 Osborne speaking of the existence of siblings. Again, as a 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:48.919 lowly Methodist, I don't have a problem with that at all. 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.919 In fact, we are taught to believe that Christ is 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.560 divine and human, and it would be absolutely human to 0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:02.679 have siblings. Now, my Catholic friend vehemently disagree with me, 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:08.240 but it sounds like a real life Da Vinci Code scenario. 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.080 There has long been a question about the siblings of Jesus. 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.480 The New Testament clearly states Jesus had four brothers, James, Jude, Joseph, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.000 and Simon. It also states Jesus had sisters plural, but 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.919 doesn't name them. After jesus death, Beryl and resurrection, James 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.520 becomes the early leader of the church in Jerusalem until 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.680 he's martyred by being thrown off the temple and club 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.080 to death or stoned. Jude, Joseph, and Simon were all 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.719 married and all became traveling evangelist. The sisters of Jesus 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.040 are not named, nor is there any specific information provided 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:42.800 about them. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.639 Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.360 Okay, so once again the women just don't exist. 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.440 But that said, this is what I'm talking. 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.879 About, a real life Da Vinci Code scenario. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:20:59.320 Listen. 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.560 Is it possible that blood descendants of Jesus Christ brothers 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.399 and sisters exist today? Maybe it depends on the denomination 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.720 Catholics absolutely not other Christian dominations. Maybe Joseph was not 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.800 jesus biological father, but Mary is his biological mother. Each 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.160 of his blood brothers was a half brother, and each 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.719 of their children would have been a partial blood relative 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.920 of Jesus. However, following the natural family tree. All humans 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.520 come from Adam and Eve, and in that regard we 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:29.840 are all related. 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:34.520 To doctor van Horst, what do you make the recalcitrants 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.240 to believe that Christ had brothers and sisters? 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:40.480 And if that is true, wouldn't. 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:42.920 There be evidence of their lives? Much as we see 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:44.960 James burial box. 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.040 Right, we have evidence that Jesus did have brothers and 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:54.879 sisters in scripture and in archaeology. The much larger question 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.480 about whether any of them their descendants still exist today. 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.000 That would really take sort of a DNA test, and 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.800 I'm sort of wondering how would that be done and 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.000 is it in fact provable, you know, if you're talking 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:13.400 about physical descent. But I like the bishop's idea that 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.520 in Christ, in faith, we are all brothers and sisters 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:22.440 of Jesus Christ, and that for us is probably the 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:27.359 much bigger and more important religious question than sort of 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:32.560 the Da Vinci Code mystery that some descendants of Mary 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.160 could still be walking on the face of the earth, 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.440 you know, and the religious significance of that pales in 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:44.000 comparison with present faith in Jesus, which makes us brothers 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:46.800 and sisters. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.480 Croud of Turin has been the source of argument and 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.840 study since it was first on display in thirteen eighty nine. 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.160 In twenty twenty two, researchers in Italy using a new 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.320 dating technique known as wide angle X race gathering, indicated 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:04.840 that the shroud was about two thousand years old. The 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:07.119 shroud is kept in a climate controlled case in the 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.280 cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. The 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.240 shroud is only rarely displayed. The last time was in 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.840 twenty fifteen, but is expected to be on display in 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.240 twenty twenty five as part of a jubilee twenty twenty 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:21.320 five Holy Year. 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:23.440 Is Christ real? 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.959 Many argue the Shroud of Turin offers proof that he is, 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.760 while others say, no, it's a hoax. Joining me is 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.560 Guy Powell, host of the Backstory on the Shroud of 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.760 Turin and author of the Only Witness, a History of 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.160 the Shroud of Turin. Guy, thank you for being with us. 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.080 Tell me the pros and the cons of the Shroud 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:46.560 of Turan. 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.879 Well, the pros are that it has an image on 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:54.520 a cloth, and some would say it's miraculous. For those 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:58.080 of us that believe that the shroud is authentic, that 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.400 image that you see there has a face, it has 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:04.000 a body, It has the whip marks, It has the 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:09.000 wounds in the hands and in the side, the side 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.199 that Thomas put his fingers on, it has wounds in 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:16.720 the feet. All of those wounds reflect the story that's 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:19.920 found in the gospels, and in particular, the one that's 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:23.120 also in the Gospels that you don't see on other 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:28.679 crucifixion historical evidence is the crown of thorns, and that 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:33.879 may be the one historical difference that really helps to 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:37.040 prove first of all the gospel stories and then that 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:41.520 the Shroud of Turin is real. Now there are some skeptics. Well, 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:46.040 there's a lot of skeptics. There's been various different studies done, 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:52.479 one on radioactivity and using radiocarbon dating, and this latest 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:55.560 study that you mentioned, the waxs the white area X 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:59.920 ray scattering, seems to prove with many, many, many other 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.840 studies that the shroud is two thousand years old, that 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:07.159 there is blood on it, that it reflects the gospel story, 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:12.960 and therefore is to a very high likelihood the authentic 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.000 burial cloth of Jesus Christ. 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:18.439 Okay, yeah, I think a lot of people have the 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:22.080 same question I did when I first learned about the shroud. 0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:29.919 How did Christ's image end up on the cloth? 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:33.119