1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: For many people around the world, this is one of 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: the two most holy seasons of the year, Christmas and Easter. 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Without Easter, would Christmas even matter? And vice versa. 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: Tonight the prosecution's case for Christ. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. 6 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 7 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 3: A mystery buried in time, from ancient scrolls to unmarked tombs. 8 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 3: What may archaeological evidence reveal of Jesus of Nazareth? 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: Is he real? Was he real? When we enter into the. 10 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: Christmas season, we see Santa, we see Christmas trees in 11 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: all different shapes and sizes, we see the granch. Well, 12 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: where does Christ fit into this scenario? It's so easy 13 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: to ignore the fact that Christmas is named after Christ? 14 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 2: But is it just a myth something we're told since 15 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: we're little children, and we're supposed to believe. I've conducted 16 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: a very intense investigation, and tonight I make the case. 17 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: For Christ with me an all star panel. 18 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: But first I want to go out to a very 19 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: special guest joining us. 20 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: Billy Hollowell is joining us from New York. 21 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network and host of two 22 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: podcasts Jesus and the Prophecies of Christmas and. 23 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: Quick Start Wow okay, and author. 24 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: Of Playing with Fire, and on and on. You know what, 25 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: your resume is so long. 26 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't have time for that. 27 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: I've got to get to the case for Christ first. 28 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: I want to query. Have you noticed, Billy, that we 29 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: are so predisposed to accept other historical facts, other historical writings. 30 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: Let me see, off the top of my head, let 31 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: me point to the Iliod in the Odyssey by Homer. 32 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: Now that detailed the Trojan War and the death of 33 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: the Trojan king Hector. However, Ilio and Odyssey was not 34 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: written until about four hundred years after the Trojan War. Okay, 35 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: but yet we choose to believe it's based in fact. 36 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: I just happened to notice that the writings about Christ 37 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: were contemporaneous with his life. 38 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: Not Christian writings, but Jewish writings. Listen two of. 39 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 4: The most important works of the Roman Jewish historian and 40 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 4: military leader Flavius Josephus, our Jewish War, recounting the Jewish 41 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 4: Revolt against Roman occupation and Antiquities of the Jews, that 42 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 4: documents the history of the world from a Jewish perspective 43 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 4: and was written for a mostly Greek and Roman audience. 44 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 4: Josepha's historical works provide an independent account of individuals mentioned 45 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 4: in biblical texts, such as Ponscious Pilot, Herod, the Great, 46 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 4: John the Baptist, as well as documenting that James was 47 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 4: the brother of Jesus of Nazareth and that Jesus was 48 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 4: called the Christ. 49 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: So these ancient writings, some around the time Christ lived, 50 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: are very persuasive. 51 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 5: What about it, Billy, Yeah, Well, you know, some people 52 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 5: will say that the Jesus reference is in dispute. So 53 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 5: even if you move that to the side, what you 54 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 5: just showed there James the brother of Jesus, who was 55 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 5: called the Christ, that is a line that is not disputed, right, 56 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 5: And so what I make of that is that you 57 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 5: have people speaking at the very same time or very 58 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 5: nearby the time of Jesus. And you have to add 59 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 5: into that as well all of the manuscripts you mentioned. 60 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 5: You know, we take things at face value that are 61 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 5: hundreds of years old. When you look at the manuscripts, 62 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 5: and Lee Strobelvarius Stuteley said this, you have five thousand 63 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 5: Greek New Testament fragments out there that back up precisely 64 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 5: what we see in scripture. So the Bible is actually 65 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 5: the most backed up literature that we have, ancient literature 66 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 5: that we have, and people act as though that evidence 67 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 5: isn't there when it very clearly is. 68 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: You know, I'm very curious why so many people choose 69 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: to ignore, as I call it evidence. 70 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: You know. 71 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 2: Let me go to Bishop Doctor Lodonna Osborne. She's the 72 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: president and CEO of Osborne Ministries. She's the author of 73 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: God's Big Picture and all of that aside. What impresses 74 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: me the most about the bishop is she is ministered 75 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: in over one hundred nations, among cultures completely different than 76 00:04:55,279 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: her own, and ministering to the needy bishop. 77 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: Why are we so predisposed like, if. 78 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: You read it in a New England medical journal, then 79 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 2: it's true, okay, or at least that's how I feel 80 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: that that's got to be true. But with all of 81 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: the historical writings about Christ that even occurred contemporaneously with 82 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 2: his life, many. 83 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: People don't want to believe that is all just a 84 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: big story. Why why are we like that? 85 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 6: I think it's interesting also that people would rather be 86 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 6: suspicious about something that is so proven. Of course, what 87 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 6: you've said about my life is true, and I have 88 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 6: been among people of every religion, every ideology, every way 89 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 6: of worship or would be called faith. And what is 90 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 6: so interesting is that this search within people for truth, 91 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 6: for deity, for a cosmic presence something that intrigues me. 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 6: So there is something in humanity that is searching. Now 93 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 6: when the subject of Jesus comes up. Why there would 94 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 6: be such resistance, I don't know unless there is a 95 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 6: spiritual dynamic. And this is where I would go, because 96 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 6: my faith is based on the Scripture, and I've given 97 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 6: my whole life bringing what we call the good news 98 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 6: of what Jesus Christ did for humanity to people who 99 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 6: are hopeless, people who are sick, people are who are 100 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 6: really lost and depressed and in bondage of all kinds. 101 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 6: I've seen more miracles of healing and deliverance than I 102 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 6: could ever document. But the point is, I think there 103 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 6: is a spiritual resistance to what is really the truth. 104 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Hayes. This issue our human nature to doubt. 105 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: And I believe that I've seen real miracles in life 106 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: that could not be explained in any other way than 107 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: a miracle. Yet Thomas, who had lived with Christ, for Pete's. 108 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: Sake, had seen the miracles, had heard the. 109 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: Basically the heresy that Jesus was preaching, completely different from 110 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition and ideology. 111 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: He saw all that, yet he doubted. 112 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: And I think that that was really intentional, Danny, because 113 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: we all doubt. We all have that in our nature. 114 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: And we see how Christ addressed it, not by ridiculing Thomas, 115 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: but by wooing him and continuing to love him. 116 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: So why is it. 117 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: Danny, we as humans choose not to believe really hard 118 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: evidence in the antiquities. 119 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 7: Well, what I love about the Thomas episode is that 120 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 7: what he doubts is the resurrection. So his other friends, 121 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 7: the other apostles, have seen the resurrected Jesus, but he 122 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 7: has it. Well, the resurrection of the dead is kind 123 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 7: of a big, you know, contrary to normal event, and 124 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 7: so we can understand Thomas having some reservations about Jesus 125 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 7: being resurrected from the dead, but you're absolutely right in 126 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 7: how Jesus handles it, and almost with some irony, Jesus 127 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 7: picks up the same terms of Thomas. You know, he says, 128 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 7: only if I can touch you know, the nail scarred hands, 129 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 7: and Jesus says, find Thomas, come and come and touch this, 130 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 7: and then brings Thomas to faith in that crucial event, 131 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 7: the actual resurrection. So I think that story's in there 132 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 7: for a purpose, just because we do we do have doubts. 133 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 7: And you see all of the disciples stumble at some 134 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 7: point or another in their walk with Jesus, but he 135 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 7: reaffirms them. But they come out strengthened because of the encounter. 136 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 7: And I think Thomas walks away from that meeting of 137 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 7: the Lord much stronger in his faith because he's actually 138 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,239 Speaker 7: seen the resurrected Christ and touched. 139 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: Him joining us. 140 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: Also, in addition to Billie Hallowell and Bishop Osborne and 141 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: doctor Hayes, is doctor Robert van Vorst, Doctor van Vorst, 142 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: Professor Emeritis New Testament, Western Theological Seminary and author of 143 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: Jesus Outside the New Testament and Introduction into Ancient Evidence. 144 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 3: In Book eighteen, chapter three of Antiquities of the Jews, 145 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: Flavius Josephus writes about this time there lived Jesus, a 146 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: wise man, if indeed one not to call him a man, 147 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: for he was one who performed surprising deeds and was 148 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: a teacher of such people as accept the truth. Gladly, 149 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 3: he won over many Jews and many of the Greeks 150 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 3: he was the Christ. Josephus also describes how Jesus was 151 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 3: condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilot, and after his crucifixion, 152 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 3: appeared to his followers three days later. 153 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: That is, Professor van Horst, extremely probative in my mind, 154 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: And you have to understand where I'm coming from. As 155 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 2: a longtime felony prosecutor, I would never put up anything 156 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 2: in front of a jury that I could not prove 157 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: to a mathematical certainty, such as two and two equals four. 158 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 2: I could never ask a jury, look, I said it, 159 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: so you just believe it. 160 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: Okay, just just trust me. 161 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: That doesn't work, And in my world that doesn't work. 162 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: So I have been on a lifetime search for evidence 163 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: to support the case for Christ. 164 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: What do you think, doctor van. 165 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 8: Horst, Well, I think that you're on the right track here, Nancy, 166 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 8: that Josephus and a lot of other Jewish writings give 167 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 8: us a good deal of evidence for saying that Jesus 168 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 8: actually existed, that he worked miracles. Now, Jewish leaders of 169 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 8: the time explained those miracles differently, But miracles in a 170 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 8: sense they were, well, didn't. 171 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: They believe that they were magic? 172 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 8: Right, right? Magic done by magic or with the cooperation 173 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 8: of Satan. But that sort of dooms that those miracles 174 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 8: are in some sense real. Jesus did, as Josepha says, 175 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 8: wonderful things. Whether he confessed and actually believed himself that 176 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 8: Jesus was the Christ, you know, that sort of a 177 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 8: statement that a Christian would make, and some historians have 178 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 8: doubted that that is actually what he thought. But anyway, 179 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 8: because in the other passages that he treats Jesus he 180 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 8: calls in the so called Christ. But anyway, we get 181 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 8: a lot of good evidence that Jesus is real. Yes, 182 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 8: that Jesus started a movement. Yes, that Jesus worked things 183 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 8: that are wonderful. Yes, And in a sense Jesus is 184 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 8: the Christ and the son of God. So these right there. 185 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: You did a little bit of a jump van Horst, 186 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: because you went from ancient biblical writings, well know, ancient 187 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: Jewish writings that state clearly, and this was contemporaneous with 188 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: Christ life, that he did live, Okay, that he performed 189 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: miracles which they attributed to either satan or magic. So 190 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: based on that we know he lived, we know he 191 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: lived where he said he lived at the time. The 192 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: Bible says he lived, and that he performed miracles a sort. 193 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: We know all of that. 194 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: And also in these writings, if we're to believe ancient artifacts, 195 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 2: it's described how he was put to death after creating 196 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: a movement listen. 197 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 4: In his twenty volume History of the Jewish People, Flavius 198 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 4: Josephus identifies the victim of an unlawful execution as James, 199 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 4: the brother of Jesus, who is called Messiah. Josephus also 200 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 4: describes a man who did surprising deeds and was condemned 201 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 4: to be crucified by Pilot in Annals of Imperial Rome. 202 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 4: First century historian and Roman senator Tacitus also mentions jesus crucifixion, 203 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 4: writing Emperor Nero falsely blamed the persons commonly called Christians, 204 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 4: who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of 205 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 4: the name, was put to death by Punch's pilot, procurator 206 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 4: of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. 207 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 3: A piece of cloth, a slab of stone, and the 208 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 3: accounts of a Crucifixion. Archaeologists and historians examine evidence for 209 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: the existence of Jesus Christ. 210 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,359 Speaker 1: Is he real? Could he possibly have risen from the dead? Well? 211 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: What about this theory. 212 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: Radical in some circles that Christ had brothers and sisters? 213 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: Listen. 214 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 3: On October twenty one, two thousand and two, the existence 215 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 3: of the ausuary of James, the brother of Jesus was announced. 216 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 3: It's a first century limestone box that was used for 217 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: containing the bones of the dead. The authenticity of the 218 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 3: ashuary or bone box of James is not in question, 219 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: just the inscription engraved in Aramaic that, when translated, means James, 220 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 3: son of Joseph, his brother of Jesus. To eminent paleographer 221 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: specializing in dating, interpreting, and authenticating inscriptions determined the inscription 222 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: was authentic. Didn't matter to the Israeli antiquities authority charged 223 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: over At Golan, the owner of the ausuary, with forgery. 224 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: The trial lasted seven years. Golan was acquitted and put 225 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: the ausuary on display. 226 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: Okay, So if this is the ausuary or the tomb 227 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: or the box containing the remains of James, the brother 228 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: of Christ, why is it so difficult for many people 229 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: to believe that Mary mother, Mary had there are children 230 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: straight out to Billie Hollwell, what about it. 231 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is interesting because obviously Catholics and Protestants have 232 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 5: very different ideas on this. I'm an Evangelical, so I've 233 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 5: always grown up without any problem seeing Jesus as having 234 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 5: had siblings. And in fact, I think a reading of 235 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 5: Scripture in multiple areas Matthew Luke Mark it talks about 236 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 5: Jesus's mother and brothers, and some will say, well, those 237 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 5: brothers were you know, cousins or they were close relatives, 238 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 5: but that doesn't seem to be the case when you 239 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 5: look at the original language. So I think it is interesting. 240 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 5: I think it has to do with the vision of 241 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 5: Mary as seeing Mary as pure, but there's nothing impure 242 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 5: about getting married and having children, right, And so after 243 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 5: she had Jesus. 244 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: You left out a sex part. 245 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: Billy, he was actually gonna go get married and suddenly 246 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: there's a baby. 247 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you bring that 248 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 5: up because in Matthew one you actually see Joseph. He 249 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 5: gets the message from the angel right, and he goes 250 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 5: and he takes Mary home as his wife, though he 251 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 5: could have not done that. I'm sure he was terrified 252 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 5: and petrified and angry when he found out that she 253 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 5: was with child. But it says in Matthew one twenty 254 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 5: four to twenty five, but he did not consummate their 255 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 5: marriage until she gave birth to a son, and that 256 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 5: son is Jesus. So you have that verse as well. 257 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 5: That definitely seems to indicate that they had other children, 258 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 5: or they at least did, you know, consummate their marriage 259 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 5: at some point, you know. 260 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: And I'd like to point out to doctor Danny Hayes, 261 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: that makes Mary an unwed mother. Okay, I find that 262 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: fascinating because in our society, unwed mothers are frowned upon. 263 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: They're looking down upon a horrible way. Yet, if Christ 264 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: is to be believed, which I do, he is the 265 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: product of an unwed mother. Now, I mean, how much 266 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: more clearly could Christ speak to us. He's born to 267 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 2: an unwed mother, to a carpenter. He becomes a carpenter, right, 268 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: And of course where he grew up. 269 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: There were not a lot of trees. 270 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: It's in the desert, So I don't know what carpenter 271 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: really means. 272 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: An odd job, guy, I don't know what that means. Then, 273 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: who does he pick for his followers? Uneducated men from 274 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: the waterfront, That's who he picks. 275 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: What could be more profound is starting a movement that 276 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 2: survives centuries. It's centuries and centuries, then coming to the 277 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: world like that, choosing those disciples. It really speaks to 278 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: me that if Christ would pick an unwed mother and 279 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: a group of un educated men off the waterfront, then 280 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: maybe there's hope for the rest of us that maybe 281 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: we could fit in. 282 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 7: Well, you're certainly right in that the birth of Jesus 283 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 7: was surrounded with scandal uh and born you know, of Mary, 284 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 7: with the scandals that would have come with that, uh. 285 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 9: And the the the humble beginnings and birth of Jesus, 286 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 9: of course, were fulfilling those prophecies of Isaiah that proclaimed 287 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 9: that this coming Messiah would not be born in the 288 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 9: king's palace but would. 289 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 7: Be born with a humble origin. So we see that 290 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 7: fulfilling the prophecies. His life as a carpenter, of course, 291 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 7: taught him lots of things. You know. While you're right 292 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 7: about there not being a lot of trees, we suspect 293 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 7: he was a stonemason, uh, and growing up in Nazareth, 294 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 7: was not but a short walk to the big city 295 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 7: of Sephoris, which was under construction during that time. In 296 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 7: Jesus and his dad Joseph probably walked down to Sephoris 297 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 7: day and worked as Stonemasons while that city was being constructed. 298 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 7: So him growing up as a hard working Stonemason with 299 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 7: humble origins. Certainly he was a messiah and a savior 300 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 7: that came for all people in all situations. And never, 301 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 7: never does the New Testament ever suggest some kind of 302 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 7: elitism of the Christians who follow him. But it's a 303 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 7: call for everybody, all walks of life, in all economic 304 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 7: stratus are the ones who are called to follow him, 305 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 7: and he certainly understands our pain and suffering in every situation. 306 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: You know, I want to go to Bishop doctor Lodonna 307 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 2: Osborne speaking of the existence of siblings. Again, as a 308 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 2: lowly Methodist, I don't have a problem with that at all. 309 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: In fact, we are taught to believe that Christ is 310 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: divine and human, and it would be absolutely human to 311 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 2: have siblings. Now, my Catholic friend vehemently disagree with me, 312 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: but it sounds like a real life Da Vinci Code scenario. 313 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: There has long been a question about the siblings of Jesus. 314 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: The New Testament clearly states Jesus had four brothers, James, Jude, Joseph, 315 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: and Simon. It also states Jesus had sisters plural, but 316 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 3: doesn't name them. After jesus death, Beryl and resurrection, James 317 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 3: becomes the early leader of the church in Jerusalem until 318 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 3: he's martyred by being thrown off the temple and club 319 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: to death or stoned. Jude, Joseph, and Simon were all 320 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 3: married and all became traveling evangelist. The sisters of Jesus 321 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 3: are not named, nor is there any specific information provided 322 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: about them. 323 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 324 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 2: Okay, so once again the women just don't exist. 325 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: But that said, this is what I'm talking. 326 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: About, a real life Da Vinci Code scenario. 327 00:20:59,000 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: Listen. 328 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 3: Is it possible that blood descendants of Jesus Christ brothers 329 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 3: and sisters exist today? Maybe it depends on the denomination 330 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 3: Catholics absolutely not other Christian dominations. Maybe Joseph was not 331 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 3: jesus biological father, but Mary is his biological mother. Each 332 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 3: of his blood brothers was a half brother, and each 333 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 3: of their children would have been a partial blood relative 334 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: of Jesus. However, following the natural family tree. All humans 335 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 3: come from Adam and Eve, and in that regard we 336 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 3: are all related. 337 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: To doctor van Horst, what do you make the recalcitrants 338 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: to believe that Christ had brothers and sisters? 339 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: And if that is true, wouldn't. 340 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 2: There be evidence of their lives? Much as we see 341 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: James burial box. 342 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 8: Right, we have evidence that Jesus did have brothers and 343 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 8: sisters in scripture and in archaeology. The much larger question 344 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 8: about whether any of them their descendants still exist today. 345 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 8: That would really take sort of a DNA test, and 346 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 8: I'm sort of wondering how would that be done and 347 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 8: is it in fact provable, you know, if you're talking 348 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 8: about physical descent. But I like the bishop's idea that 349 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 8: in Christ, in faith, we are all brothers and sisters 350 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 8: of Jesus Christ, and that for us is probably the 351 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 8: much bigger and more important religious question than sort of 352 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 8: the Da Vinci Code mystery that some descendants of Mary 353 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 8: could still be walking on the face of the earth, 354 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 8: you know, and the religious significance of that pales in 355 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 8: comparison with present faith in Jesus, which makes us brothers 356 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 8: and sisters. 357 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 10: Croud of Turin has been the source of argument and 358 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 10: study since it was first on display in thirteen eighty nine. 359 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 10: In twenty twenty two, researchers in Italy using a new 360 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 10: dating technique known as wide angle X race gathering, indicated 361 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 10: that the shroud was about two thousand years old. The 362 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 10: shroud is kept in a climate controlled case in the 363 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 10: cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. The 364 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 10: shroud is only rarely displayed. The last time was in 365 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 10: twenty fifteen, but is expected to be on display in 366 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 10: twenty twenty five as part of a jubilee twenty twenty 367 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 10: five Holy Year. 368 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: Is Christ real? 369 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 2: Many argue the Shroud of Turin offers proof that he is, 370 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: while others say, no, it's a hoax. Joining me is 371 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: Guy Powell, host of the Backstory on the Shroud of 372 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: Turin and author of the Only Witness, a History of 373 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 2: the Shroud of Turin. Guy, thank you for being with us. 374 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: Tell me the pros and the cons of the Shroud 375 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: of Turan. 376 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 11: Well, the pros are that it has an image on 377 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 11: a cloth, and some would say it's miraculous. For those 378 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 11: of us that believe that the shroud is authentic, that 379 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 11: image that you see there has a face, it has 380 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 11: a body, It has the whip marks, It has the 381 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 11: wounds in the hands and in the side, the side 382 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 11: that Thomas put his fingers on, it has wounds in 383 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 11: the feet. All of those wounds reflect the story that's 384 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 11: found in the gospels, and in particular, the one that's 385 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 11: also in the Gospels that you don't see on other 386 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 11: crucifixion historical evidence is the crown of thorns, and that 387 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 11: may be the one historical difference that really helps to 388 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 11: prove first of all the gospel stories and then that 389 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 11: the Shroud of Turin is real. Now there are some skeptics. Well, 390 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 11: there's a lot of skeptics. There's been various different studies done, 391 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 11: one on radioactivity and using radiocarbon dating, and this latest 392 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 11: study that you mentioned, the waxs the white area X 393 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 11: ray scattering, seems to prove with many, many, many other 394 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 11: studies that the shroud is two thousand years old, that 395 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 11: there is blood on it, that it reflects the gospel story, 396 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 11: and therefore is to a very high likelihood the authentic 397 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 11: burial cloth of Jesus Christ. 398 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I think a lot of people have the 399 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: same question I did when I first learned about the shroud. 400 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 2: How did Christ's image end up on the cloth? 401 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is. 402 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 11: You know, one of the challenges that Shroud authenticis have 403 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 11: and that's actually I think good news is we have 404 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 11: not been able, as scientists, been able to figure out 405 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 11: what caused that image, and so that kind of says 406 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 11: that the image is not a man made image. There 407 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 11: are no man made techniques that can make that image 408 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 11: the way it's found on the shroud. So therefore, is 409 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 11: it a miraculous image? I personally believe it is. It 410 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 11: is to me the only witness to the resurrection, the 411 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 11: singular event that that proves Christianity, that that Christ was 412 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 11: both man and God. And that image then, because it's miraculous, 413 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 11: is uh, you know, probably will never be proven by 414 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 11: man that what caused it or how to recreate it. 415 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 11: It's it's just a it's it's an enigma that I 416 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 11: don't think we'll be able to solve, at least not 417 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 11: with current technology. And but it definitely shows the divine 418 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 11: potentially the divine nature and then the human nature that 419 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 11: that is Christ. 420 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: Okay, Guy Powell, for those looking for evidence, I'm a 421 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: three a hard question. Let me put you on the 422 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: cross examination, hot seat, isn't it true that certain test 423 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 2: performed on the shroud of Turan revealed let me just 424 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: refer to as paint or paint really objects. 425 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: That are not that old. 426 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 11: Yes, that is correct. One of the things that happened 427 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 11: over it's the shrouds history was well one of the 428 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 11: things if you step back, if you touch a relic, 429 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 11: whatever touches, that becomes what's called a secondary relic. And 430 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 11: so what people would do. 431 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 2: Is they wait, wh whoa whoa wait wait, wait a minute. 432 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: What to me, it sounds like transfer DNA. 433 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: Okay are you trying to say and regular people talk? 434 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: Okay, Remember we're making a case for christ I'm not 435 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: talking about what I want to believe when I'm comfortable believing. 436 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 2: I'm talking about evidence, evidence that supports what we believe 437 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: as Christians. 438 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: Okay, because it's very hard. 439 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 2: For me to sit around a Christmas tree or a 440 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 2: Nativity scene if I don't really believe. 441 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: Okay, Now, those particles on the shroud. 442 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 2: Of Turin which are not around the time of his death, 443 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: we know that from carbon fourteen. 444 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: You do believe in carbon fourteen testing, right, guy Powell? 445 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 11: I do absolutely, That's a yester name. 446 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: Ye, so yes, but you trust carbon fourteen. Don't make 447 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: me cut your mic not on Christmas Eve, please. You 448 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 2: do believe in carbon fourteen. Some of those particles were 449 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: carbon fourteen tested and they showed that they are from 450 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 2: much much much later, centuries later after Christ's death. Now, 451 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: isn't it also true, Guy Powell, that you believe, as 452 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: do I, that those more recent particles were from the 453 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: storage of the shroud. In other words, if I put 454 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: this piece of paper down, it's going to collect the 455 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: DNA off where you know, the particles from where. 456 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: I place it. 457 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: So the theory is that those more recent particles are 458 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: the storage method. 459 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 11: Well, and that's where I was getting to is if 460 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 11: that piece of paper that you put down had paint 461 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 11: on it, that would transfer paint over to the shroud itself, 462 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 11: and so those paint particles that you're talking about would 463 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 11: have been transferred from another painted cloth that was made 464 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 11: as a replica. Now you also mentioned the carbon fourteen dating. 465 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 11: That is the I do believe the carbon fourteen dating 466 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 11: is correct. The challenge is that the carbon fourteen dating 467 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 11: that was done on the shroud was done very improperly. 468 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 11: They didn't follow protocol, and it's possible that the sample 469 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 11: that they took was in an area that had been 470 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 11: repaired with modern material. And therefore the unfortunately that carbon 471 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 11: dating that was done really needs to be thrown out, 472 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 11: and all evidence points to the fact that it should 473 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 11: be thrown out. They did the statistics wrong, they hid 474 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 11: the data, and the end. 475 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: Of the day, those they hide the data on the 476 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: Shroud of Turin. 477 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 11: Exactly why would they hide the data when we find 478 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 11: that out? 479 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: Who shot JFK? 480 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: Who knows why the government hides anything? 481 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: But that said, Guy Powell, are you. 482 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: Satisfied that the Shroud of Turin's attacks have been disproved? 483 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely? 484 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 11: I think there has not been one attack that has 485 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 11: been proven to one hundred percent that it's that the 486 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 11: the shroud is false. Every attack that's made, whether there's 487 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 11: paint down there, whether there's radiocarbonating, every one of those 488 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 11: has been proven to be false. And then you have, 489 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 11: you know, many, many tens of tests that have been 490 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 11: done that do indicate that it is from the first 491 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 11: century and it dates to the first century. So so 492 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 11: far there has not been one valid scientific proof to 493 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 11: be able to say that the shroud itself is not authentic. 494 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace. 495 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 3: Researchers have pointed out that there are no records for 496 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of the people that served in the 497 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 3: Roman Empire, but there is evidence of Jesus found in 498 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 3: an ancient piece of graffiti known as alex Aminos Graffito, 499 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 3: carved into the wall of a room near the Palatine 500 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 3: Hill in Rome somewhere between the first and third centuries AD. 501 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 3: The drawing is of a man worshiping a donkey headed 502 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 3: man hanging from across with the message that translates to 503 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 3: alex Aminos worships his God. A leading authority on archaeology 504 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 3: of early Christianity, doctor Jonathan Reed, tells The Daily Mail, 505 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: the earliest evidence we have in the archaeological record for 506 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 3: Christians is someone making fun of Jesus being crucified. 507 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 2: Me to think of someone making fun of Christ dying 508 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 2: on a cross. The Christian theory is that Christ allowed 509 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 2: himself to be crucified so that now, centuries and centuries later, 510 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: when we face death, we will have no fear because 511 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: we know he endured the very same thing, if not worse, 512 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 2: and lived on two Doctor Robert van Vorst joining us 513 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: Professor Meredith New Testament Western Theological Seminary and author of 514 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: Jesus Outside the New Testament, Doctor van Vorst, I want 515 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: to explain to you as best as I can. I mean, 516 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: you guys are the experts, not ma'am's trial lawyer. Why 517 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: this evidence, the graffiti mocking Christ, to me is the 518 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 2: most probative. Why unlike people, not you, guy Powell. Of 519 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: course that advance. That's the legitimacy of the of the 520 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: Shroud of Turin. Not other people invested in continuing the faith. 521 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: They got a dog in the fight, right, they got 522 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: skin in the game. This guy has nothing in it. 523 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: This is graffiti carved onto a wall actually mocking Christ's 524 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: crucifixion and people bowing down to worship him. 525 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: And this was at the time of Christ. I find that. 526 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: Considering the source to be more probative than a priest or, a. 527 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: Preacher or no. This is someone a non believer who 528 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: is accepting the story of Christ and even mocking it. 529 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 8: Well, that's right. The whole graffito there points quite clearly 530 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 8: that Jesus was an own to be crucified, that this 531 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 8: crucified figure is worshiped by Alexaminos and of course he 532 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 8: is made fun of in this graffido. Alexaminos is a 533 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 8: young man and probably this graffito was put on the 534 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 8: wall of a school or a building there on the 535 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 8: Palatine Hill. And if you go to Rome today, you 536 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 8: should go to the Palatine Museum and see that, because 537 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 8: it's really quite striking and it testifies to us that 538 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 8: Jesus was known widely in the ancient world, especially in Rome, 539 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 8: as someone who was crucified, and his crucifixion called forth 540 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 8: worship from his followers. 541 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 2: And that's really interesting the way you just said that, 542 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 2: doctor van Vorst, because people were crucified, that was not 543 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 2: uncommon in the time upon just pilot, but people all 544 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: the others that were crucified didn't get worshiped. 545 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: That right, it's Christ apart. So I'm not at this point. 546 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 2: I don't think anyone doubts that Christ existed. It's in 547 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 2: all of the ancient Jewish manuscripts and more. We don't 548 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: have any question that he was crucified. It's the resurrection 549 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: part that is the let me just say, fly in 550 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: the ointment. 551 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: But here in this. 552 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: Graffiti we see it's being made fun of. Of course 553 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 2: that Christ is actually being worshiped. Why why is he 554 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 2: different from everybody else that was crucified, whether on cole 555 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 2: Gotha or not, Because he is and was different? 556 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: Okay, far from some old age graffiti. 557 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 2: Now an incredible mosaic has emerged. 558 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 3: Listen to this, located beneath the floor of an Israeli prison, 559 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 3: an eighteen hundred year old mosaic featuring the first written 560 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 3: declaration of Jesus as God. The mosaic is five hundred 561 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 3: and eighty one feet and decorated the world's first prayer 562 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 3: haul in two thirty eight deep. It contains the ancient 563 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 3: Greek phrase the god loving Aceptus has offered the table 564 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 3: to God Jesus Christ as a memorial. Carlos Campos, the 565 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 3: CEO of the Museum of the Bible, which recently exhibited 566 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 3: the mosaic, hailed it as the greatest discovery since the 567 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 3: Dead Sea scrolls. 568 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: The prosecution's case for Christ, did he exist? I say yes, 569 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: and I am schooled, schooled in bringing forth believable and 570 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 2: credible evidence. 571 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: What about eyewitnesses? 572 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I know in a court of law one eyewitness 573 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 2: can easily be attacked. 574 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: Were you wearing glasses? How far away were you? What 575 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: were the. 576 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: Lightning conditions that night? Isn't it true you have had 577 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: cataracts in your left eye? 578 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. 579 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: But what about five hundred witnesses joining a bishop? 580 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Lodonna Osborne? 581 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 2: Could you speak to the hundreds of witnesses that saw 582 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 2: Christ after the resurrection? 583 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 6: Yes, that documentation giving evidence to the resurrection is undeniable. 584 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 6: And then we can back it up to those who 585 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 6: walked with Jesus in his earthly life and saw his miracles, 586 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 6: heard his teaching, saw the divine and human expression of 587 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 6: his life, and then they wrote. I know there's questions 588 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 6: about actual authorship, but they were eyewitnesses that wrote and 589 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 6: documented what we can call ancient literature. It still has survived, 590 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 6: And Nancy, I think the fact that the Bible has 591 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 6: even come to us in spite of all the human intervention, 592 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 6: that's a miracle by itself. 593 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: So yes, really is a Bishop Osborne? Billy Howell? What 594 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: about it? 595 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 2: I agree or disagree with Lodonna regards barring hundreds of 596 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 2: witnesses as my job to attack witnesses in court, that's 597 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 2: my job, and I believe my questions. I believe I'm 598 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: doing the right thing, but five hundred witnesses and another thing, 599 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: Hallowell people at that time, Billy Hallowell chose rather than 600 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,720 Speaker 2: denounce Christ, they chose to go into hiding, living in caves, 601 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 2: uprooting their families because they saw him. Now that is 602 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 2: certainly in dish of credibility. 603 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: Billy, Yeah, I. 604 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,760 Speaker 5: Mean, would any sane person go to a brutal death? 605 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 5: From what we know from tradition, John may be the 606 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 5: only one who didn't have a brutal death, who had 607 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 5: a peaceful death right all of his direct followers. But 608 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 5: I want to address that question about the five hundred, 609 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 5: because when you look at First Corinthians, which is where 610 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 5: that story is, Paul probably wrote that around a D. 611 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 5: Fifty five, Jesus died around a D. Thirty three. Let's say, 612 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 5: so you're talking about twenty some odd years here. So 613 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 5: most of the people that were in that five hundred, 614 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 5: the Bible actually tells us a good chunk of them 615 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 5: we're still alive. So here is Paul writing a letter 616 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 5: making an outlandish claim that Jesus rose from the dead 617 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 5: and appeared to five hundred people. And where are all 618 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 5: the people to say, no, you're crazy, No, this is 619 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 5: wrong everything we've documented in this show. There are people mocking, 620 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 5: there are people calling Jesus a sorcerer, but nobody is 621 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 5: denying these stories really right, We're not seeing denials. We're 622 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 5: seeing people misplace what's happening, or have it wrong. I 623 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 5: think it's pretty remarkable that Paul would write that letter 624 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 5: with those people, hundreds of them very likely alive. It's 625 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 5: a pretty bold thing to do if you're making up 626 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 5: a lie. I find that one of the most compelling 627 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 5: pieces of scripture. 628 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 2: According to the Gospel, we are asked to live in faith. 629 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: Many doubters say, well, why can't we just have proof. 630 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 2: I guess if we had proof then we would be 631 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 2: We wouldn't have. 632 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: No free will, because it would be force fed to us. 633 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: I think Christ asks for the faithful, not the robots 634 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 2: who simply regurgitate what. 635 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,320 Speaker 1: They've been said. How do you explain that. 636 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 8: Doctor van forest Well, I think that to look at 637 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 8: the life of the disciples is good and the way 638 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 8: that they died in faith and in obedience to Christ. 639 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 8: Very early it became a point of belief that because 640 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 8: Jesus died for us, we should be willing to die 641 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 8: for him and when you look at all the thousands 642 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 8: of martyrs in early Christian times who died for the faith, 643 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 8: this was impressive to other people. Even the Roman writer Tacitus, 644 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 8: whom he quoted earlier when he described Neurodian's Nero's persecution 645 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 8: of Christians, said that a lot of people began to 646 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 8: be sympathetic to Christians because they realized that Nero was 647 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 8: going way over the top with us, and he was crucive. 648 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 8: He was killing people in cruel ways for things that 649 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 8: did not deserve death. And this was impressive to other people, 650 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 8: you know, so much so that the early Christian theologian 651 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 8: Tertullian said very famously the blood of the martyrs is 652 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 8: the seed of the church. That the more they were killed, 653 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 8: the more attention they got, the more faith was elicited 654 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 8: in other people. And they had such a strong belief 655 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 8: not only in Jesus dying for them, but Jesus was 656 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 8: raised from the dead by God eternally, that the same 657 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 8: thing would happen for them, that martyrdom would lead to 658 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 8: resurrection and eternal life. 659 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 2: The case for Christ we could argue about so called 660 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 2: evidence till were blue in the faith, but too many 661 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 2: it's a matter of faith. Nothing in the world is 662 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,760 Speaker 2: usually black or white, so many things cannot be proven, 663 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: such as two and two equals four to a mathematical certainty. 664 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:19,879 Speaker 2: But it's very probative that in that time disciples and 665 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 2: many others chose to die horrible deaths then recount the life, 666 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: the Crucifixion, and the resurrection of Christ. I would submit 667 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 2: that to a jury as probative. At this Christmas season, 668 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 2: the truth of Christ, it's still in question for many, 669 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 2: but as you gather around your Christmas tree, it's certainly 670 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,720 Speaker 2: something to not only question, to consider, but hopefully to believe. 671 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: Merry Christmas. What is this s