Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2: Where is there alignment there your sensibilities and an audience's sensibilities.
Speaker 2: I think if you want to be a filmmaker, it
Speaker 2: all starts with understanding what you love and what audiences love,
Speaker 2: and how you can connect these things, these truths. I
Speaker 2: am Bob Pittman.
Speaker 3: Welcome to this episode of Math and Magic, Stories from
Speaker 3: the Frontiers and Marketing. Today, we're going to explore storytelling
Speaker 3: and the business of movie and TV production with a
Speaker 3: focus on creativity and audience engagement, and we're going to
Speaker 3: learn from one of the greatest directors of our generation,
Speaker 3: Ron Howard. Ron was born in Oklahoma, grew up in
Speaker 3: LA was an amazingly successful child actor, starting with his
Speaker 3: character on the long running Andy Griffith's Show, but continued
Speaker 3: that momentum with his roles in American Graffiti and Happy Days.
Speaker 3: He then did what few actors do. He made the
Speaker 3: jump to director, and he did it at a super
Speaker 3: young age.
Speaker 2: With a body of work that has geen.
Speaker 3: Re versatility and huge box office success as well as
Speaker 3: critical acclaim. He's won Academy Awards, Emmy's Golden globes and more,
Speaker 3: and he's got a lot to tell us about connecting
Speaker 3: with audiences, effective storytelling, and collaboration the most important. He's
Speaker 3: one of the most thoughtful and nicest.
Speaker 2: Power players in Hollywood. Ron welcome, well, thank you. Thanks
Speaker 2: for that. Intro don't know if I can live up
Speaker 2: to all that, but we'll see what we can.
Speaker 3: Do before we dig into the meaty stuff. I want
Speaker 3: to do you in sixty seconds, Ready to go?
Speaker 2: All right? Try me? Cats are dogs? Oh you see,
Speaker 2: I'm not such a black and white guy. If I
Speaker 2: really had to choose, I'll go with dog. But I've
Speaker 2: got a lot of affections for cats.
Speaker 3: I won't tell any of the cats you decided against
Speaker 3: them Early Riser Er, night Out, early.
Speaker 2: Riser, City or country. I love people, and there's more
Speaker 2: of them there in the city, East Coast or West Coast.
Speaker 2: I prefer the East Coast for you. An introvert or extrovert,
Speaker 2: introvert happy to talk to people, just a little socially reluctant.
Speaker 2: Fiction or documentary. I love the docs. America graffiti or
Speaker 2: the studio. Well, American graffiti holds a very special place
Speaker 2: in my heart. Directing a comedy or drama. Drama. I
Speaker 2: just love the simple truth of it. What's your favorite
Speaker 2: all time movie? I keep going back to one floor
Speaker 2: over the Cuckoo's Nest. Biggest lesson from fifty years of
Speaker 2: marriage talk, even when you do not want to know,
Speaker 2: you can solve the problem if you are willing to
Speaker 2: face the conversation. You just saved everybody a lot of
Speaker 2: money on marriage counseling. Thank you.
Speaker 3: So before we jump into the real meaty stuff. After
Speaker 3: watching your episode on the studio, one question, is it
Speaker 3: really that hard for studio executives to give notes to
Speaker 3: the big directors?
Speaker 2: Well, not me, unfortunately, and I don't talk to people
Speaker 2: that way, nor have I ever thrown my hat all.
Speaker 2: I will own up to the fact that that was
Speaker 2: my improvised moment that Seth Rogan agreed to. And then
Speaker 2: between the rehearsals and the shooting I must have thrown
Speaker 2: my hat in his face a dozen times. But he
Speaker 2: laughed every time. That great Seth Rogan laughed. So that
Speaker 2: was a fun day. You know. It does depend that
Speaker 2: was a loaded situation that they created where a director
Speaker 2: has a deep emotional connection to an aspect of the
Speaker 2: movie that they feel needs to be edited or even xcize.
Speaker 2: That's a challenge. And then when you're taking on a
Speaker 2: director who has final cut, who could basically say screw
Speaker 2: it and walk away and enforce it, it's tricky territory.
Speaker 3: So now let's jump into the real stuff. You and
Speaker 3: I are about the same age. I grew up in
Speaker 3: rural Mississippi in the fifties and sixties. The Andy griff
Speaker 3: of the show was the first show I can remember
Speaker 3: that connected with me. I could see myself in the
Speaker 3: town and with the characters, including yours. And in those
Speaker 3: days we only had three TV networks, and actually in
Speaker 3: my town we can only pick up two of them.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly what the impact your show had
Speaker 3: on us from disenfranchised to America, but I know it
Speaker 3: was powerful. Did the people on the creative side doing
Speaker 3: that show have any idea of that real impact and
Speaker 3: any deliberate focus on the heartland? I think it was
Speaker 3: really interesting that that show seemed to have such respect
Speaker 3: for rural America.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you're very perceptive. I more than once
Speaker 2: remember Andy Griffith after a read through, always cutting out
Speaker 2: jokes that he thought were sort of farcical or vaudevillian,
Speaker 2: and I remember him killing a joke that the writers loved.
Speaker 2: He said, look, the South is plenty funny without stooping
Speaker 2: to that sort of character assassination to try to get
Speaker 2: a joke and try to get a laugh. And so
Speaker 2: he understood where the humor was and he built his
Speaker 2: career on it. And yes, Bob, that tone that you're
Speaker 2: talking about is something that he helped define to begin with,
Speaker 2: and protected and built throughout the eight years. And the
Speaker 2: remarkable thing about Andy Griffiths show is even as times
Speaker 2: changed and the show shifted with it. The show went
Speaker 2: from black and white to color. Even some of the
Speaker 2: themes and the lessons that were taught and shared, they
Speaker 2: even shifted with the tumult of the sixties because our
Speaker 2: show started in sixty and we went off the air
Speaker 2: in sixty eight. But interestingly, in nineteen sixty eight, three
Speaker 2: years after Don Knots had left, after the show had
Speaker 2: been on for eight years, we actually were the number
Speaker 2: one show in the entire country for the entire season,
Speaker 2: and that was the year that Andy retired the show.
Speaker 2: But I just will never forget him sort of defending
Speaker 2: the characters yet loving them when they were funny, loving
Speaker 2: them when they were silly, as long as they remained honest.
Speaker 3: As a director and a creative I think everyone would
Speaker 3: point out that you have this incredible sense of what
Speaker 3: we'll call real America. Do you think that it's rooted
Speaker 3: in the show that you did early on or was
Speaker 3: it something else that gave you that sort of insight
Speaker 3: which you carry with you today.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it definitely was rooted in this show.
Speaker 2: Everybody took it very seriously. There was a lot of laughter,
Speaker 2: and in fact, I learned that the environment could be playful,
Speaker 2: people could be having a good time, but there were
Speaker 2: also moments to buckle down and make sure that we
Speaker 2: were delivering for the audience and that we were maximizing
Speaker 2: the entertainment value and the ideas behind each story. And
Speaker 2: so as gentle and easy going as all those episodes seem,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of effort that went into it.
Speaker 2: So I got to witness that balance, and I try
Speaker 2: to carry that attitude and that approach with me as
Speaker 2: a filmmaker, and even that collaboration, that spirit of collaboration,
Speaker 2: because while there was a director and there were producers,
Speaker 2: and the buck stopped somewhere, it wasn't in the actors' hands.
Speaker 2: Actors were allowed to contribute, encouraged to contribute. I try
Speaker 2: to keep that environment going in my work as well,
Speaker 2: and I really, in fact, I think it's one of
Speaker 2: the things that keeps me going is the array of
Speaker 2: collaborators from all walks of life in every corner of
Speaker 2: the planet that I get to engage with. It just
Speaker 2: keeps it really fresh and exciting, and I keep learning.
Speaker 2: But my parents were very earthy. With my dad, my
Speaker 2: brother Clint, and I would often refer in later years
Speaker 2: to his sort of approach to life as kind of
Speaker 2: Midwestern zen. There's a go with the flow, sort of
Speaker 2: a recognition of what you can and can't control, and
Speaker 2: what are the limits of your strength, and yet a
Speaker 2: willingness to assert kind of everything you have as long
Speaker 2: as you can control something. And I think he just
Speaker 2: learned that as a farm boy growing up. He also
Speaker 2: really learned how to work. I don't think he was
Speaker 2: allergic to the idea of Clint and I working at
Speaker 2: a very early age, because he was doing real chores
Speaker 2: at age five, with a real responsibility, like don't break
Speaker 2: the eggs and make sure the cow gets milked. So
Speaker 2: I think both Clinton and I just grew up around
Speaker 2: that kind of mentality and also that post World War
Speaker 2: two optimism that everyone is so nostalgic about.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting I think you mentioned and it
Speaker 3: just comes to mind. I was living in a very
Speaker 3: small town in Mississippi and in the fifth grade I
Speaker 3: was hired by a men's clothing store to sweep out
Speaker 3: and clean up the store every day after it closed.
Speaker 3: I think, I mean, that's be thrown in jail for
Speaker 3: child labor, but to me it didn't seem so weird,
Speaker 3: and I got spending money. But that was obviously another time,
Speaker 3: and that was really rural America with a different set
Speaker 3: of values.
Speaker 2: And I think that kind of sense of responsibility. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's sort of difficult to impart in this day and age,
Speaker 2: and it's not like we want ten year olds cleaning
Speaker 2: out the store. But it's also one of the reasons
Speaker 2: that I believe, when well supervised, that being a child
Speaker 2: performer can be a healthy experience. It's challenging. I didn't
Speaker 2: let my kids act as kids, even though several of
Speaker 2: them clearly had the talent, and my oldest daughter, Bryce
Speaker 2: Bryce Dallas Howard, you know, it's been her career and
Speaker 2: now she's also directing. But you know, I'm very grateful
Speaker 2: for the fact that at an early age I learned
Speaker 2: how to be a part of something that was productive
Speaker 2: and creative and exciting. You know, I've built my whole
Speaker 2: adult life around that feeling. Can you talk a.
Speaker 3: Little bit collaboration. You've mentioned that's a word that's often
Speaker 3: used with you. Seems to be a very powerful weapon
Speaker 3: in your arsenal. I mean, you've had some great partnerships
Speaker 3: over time. Can you tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: how you think about collaboration and what spokes not understand
Speaker 3: about how to make collaboration work. What's that common mistake
Speaker 3: that needs to be avoided?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it was a mistake that I think
Speaker 2: I was making early on as a director because I
Speaker 2: was so young. You know, I began directing my first
Speaker 2: professional film the day after my twenty third birthday, and
Speaker 2: for that and the next couple of films, as sort
Speaker 2: of generally the youngest person on the set yet in charge,
Speaker 2: I think I felt like I had to have all
Speaker 2: the answers and make them be decisive and make them
Speaker 2: quick and stick to them. And I slowly but truly
Speaker 2: began to realize that I was short changing myself, and
Speaker 2: as I began to listen a bit more, my work
Speaker 2: got so much better. The other thing that I learned
Speaker 2: at a certain point is that if as a leader
Speaker 2: and look, everybody sees the director as the needed authority.
Speaker 2: It's not a democracy. Films and television shows they need
Speaker 2: to be led. It's very dynamic. Decisions are made quickly.
Speaker 2: A lot of money is being spent very quickly, so
Speaker 2: they look to the director. They want the director to
Speaker 2: be right. But I found that when I invited input
Speaker 2: more the way it was invited on The Andy Griffith
Speaker 2: Show during the rehearsals, that not only was I getting
Speaker 2: a lot of great ideas that I could use that
Speaker 2: was exciting, but two things happened. One, the ideas that
Speaker 2: were arrived at, the decisions that were arrived at that
Speaker 2: were born of somebody else's suggestion, there was a little
Speaker 2: X factor there. They understood it in some intrinsic way
Speaker 2: when they owned the idea. There was something a little magical,
Speaker 2: some intangible something that I really witnessed over and over again.
Speaker 2: And the other thing is that when they know that
Speaker 2: you're excited, not only willing, but actually excited to say
Speaker 2: yes and include them in the process. It's so much
Speaker 2: easier to say no. They recognize that there's an editorial
Speaker 2: process underway.
Speaker 3: Is that the way you keep collaboration from becoming consensus
Speaker 3: and watering down your vision.
Speaker 2: Yes. Often there are suggestions that at first glance they
Speaker 2: feel right or there's a consensus. Yet when you really
Speaker 2: put it under the microscope, you recognize that that's actually
Speaker 2: sacrificing a value, a deeper value, a theme, you know,
Speaker 2: an aspect of a character that needs to evolve and
Speaker 2: pay off in a particular way. And so people may
Speaker 2: wish for a specific moment at a specific time, and
Speaker 2: they might all agree that they really wish this moment
Speaker 2: you liked the character instead of dislike the character, or
Speaker 2: it was funny instead of sad, for example. But you
Speaker 2: may need to go against that in order to protect
Speaker 2: a more important moment down the road. And so that
Speaker 2: becomes this process of evaluating input, and that's a little exhausted.
Speaker 2: There are times when I think to myself, man, there
Speaker 2: are a lot of voices we're weighing options. I just
Speaker 2: need to cut through the clutter here and make a
Speaker 2: call and you know, I do that, and it's fine.
Speaker 3: You mentioned that it's easier to say no once you've
Speaker 3: said yes and bit inclusive in the process. How is
Speaker 3: that part of or how do you handle dissent in
Speaker 3: this creative collaboration when somebody fundamentally disagrees, Well.
Speaker 2: It depends who they are with actors, and I value
Speaker 2: actors and their contributions to the absolute max. I will
Speaker 2: often take the time for them to be able to
Speaker 2: try a shot or scene or choice their way, and
Speaker 2: then also ask them to give the version that I'm
Speaker 2: looking for as well. And the caliber of actors that
Speaker 2: I work with that I'm lucky enough to work with,
Speaker 2: they never sandbag that. I tell them very honestly. I
Speaker 2: will take both to the editing room and really seriously
Speaker 2: consider it, and I'd say it's about fifty to fifty
Speaker 2: as to which choice I take in the final cut,
Speaker 2: and as long as it achieves the objective. You know
Speaker 2: what I do in these situations where it's kind of
Speaker 2: in either or if it achieves the narrative goal or
Speaker 2: the entertainment value that we're looking for in a moment
Speaker 2: or a scene. If it's funny, if it's sad, if
Speaker 2: it's scary if it's surprising and the actor's choice is
Speaker 2: different than mine in terms of how to get there,
Speaker 2: but what they achieve is the same. The function is there.
Speaker 2: I always go with their idea. I always go with
Speaker 2: their idea. Again, back to that notion that well, they
Speaker 2: own that one. They understand that right to their core.
Speaker 2: It almost always benefits the scene. But there are times
Speaker 2: when's not a consensus and I say, no, I just
Speaker 2: I really feel this way about it. Hope you understand,
Speaker 2: And they really always do. I can't really think of
Speaker 2: a situation where I haven't gotten the takes that I
Speaker 2: thought I needed to tell the story in the way
Speaker 2: that I believed was most likely to work. But I
Speaker 2: also can't begin to count the number of times I've
Speaker 2: benefited from saying, yeah, let's try it that way. Moral Mathemagic.
Speaker 3: Right after this quick break, welcome back to mathem Magic.
Speaker 3: Hear more from my conversation with Ron Howard. This podcast
Speaker 3: is rooted in marketing, and one of the essential skills
Speaker 3: for marketers is being able to tell the story of
Speaker 3: the product or brand. You are an extraordinary storyteller. What
Speaker 3: advice would you give them on how to construct the
Speaker 3: most compelling story to connect to the audiences.
Speaker 2: Wow, Bob, you know, I wish Brian Grazier was on
Speaker 2: this podcast with us because our partnership, which is coming
Speaker 2: on to forty years formally just since we formed Imagine,
Speaker 2: is kind of brilliant and exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: And I think it's one of the reasons we've had
Speaker 2: a lot of successes with Imagine is he's able to
Speaker 2: understand that kind of the artistic value of an idea,
Speaker 2: the entertainment value of an idea, but also innately just
Speaker 2: have a sense of how it might reach an audience
Speaker 2: and what it might mean to an audience. To try
Speaker 2: to answer your question, I think you always want to
Speaker 2: get down to the essence of what the story is,
Speaker 2: what the narrative is. And by the way, in recent years,
Speaker 2: we've started working with brands a lot. We have a
Speaker 2: division to Imagine that Mark Gilbar runs it that works
Speaker 2: closely with brands. But one of the things that Brian
Speaker 2: found first and I'm on board with and agree with
Speaker 2: completely is often the brands do offer a set of themes, values,
Speaker 2: a history that suggests certain narratives that are pretty entertaining,
Speaker 2: and so we don't do TV commercials, but we've been
Speaker 2: able to find ways to sort of build on those
Speaker 2: narratives in fun ways and do a lot of work
Speaker 2: with brands that I really enjoy. But I think when
Speaker 2: you get at that essence, you understand what the relationship is,
Speaker 2: what the proposition is for your customer. In our case,
Speaker 2: it's an audience. So what is the utility and what
Speaker 2: is your promise? And how do you deliver? And why
Speaker 2: is it special? You want to be able to answer
Speaker 2: those questions about a movie project or a television show.
Speaker 2: You want to understand what the possibility is to live
Speaker 2: up to that. Why can you be special? Why will
Speaker 2: you mean something to an audience member who takes the
Speaker 2: time and spends the money to watch the story you're telling.
Speaker 3: And by the way, with Brian, it is one of
Speaker 3: the things I didn't mention here but should is that
Speaker 3: you also built a business structure around what you do.
Speaker 3: You and Brian would imagine and for people who are
Speaker 3: not my age, who are very early I can remember
Speaker 3: when You Guys first came out.
Speaker 2: It was maybe one of the hottest IPOs.
Speaker 3: You couldn't buy stock, everybody who was clamoring for it,
Speaker 3: and you really set a standard that I think a
Speaker 3: lot of folks tried to copy after that, but you guys.
Speaker 2: Were really the innovators there. I always wanted to be
Speaker 2: a producer as well. I was always interested in having
Speaker 2: as much control and autonomy, and I think a lot
Speaker 2: of that came from the fact that growing up in
Speaker 2: my father was an actor and a writer, but always
Speaker 2: freelance and always waiting for that phone during and I
Speaker 2: wanted to be involved in a company, in a partnership
Speaker 2: that would help generate that workflow with as much control
Speaker 2: as possible. So when Brian and I came together, we'd
Speaker 2: each had small companies of our own, so it was
Speaker 2: in a way it was kind of a little merger
Speaker 2: and began to build. Imagine you know, it was an
Speaker 2: exciting time. We've had a long journey, eventful in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways, plenty of ops, some challenges too, and
Speaker 2: yet this is such an exciting moment for a company.
Speaker 2: It's hell if you're a platform or a studio or
Speaker 2: a network trying to figure out what to invest in.
Speaker 2: But if you're a creator, just believing in ideas, aggregating talent,
Speaker 2: finding great collaborators and getting stuff made, it's pretty thrilling.
Speaker 2: That's what we're finding out. The hard work still sure
Speaker 2: hasn't gotten any easier. In fact, it seems like we
Speaker 2: keep having to reinvent ourselves every few years. But maybe
Speaker 2: that's what keeps it fresh and fun for us.
Speaker 3: You made this improbable jump. I mentioned it in the
Speaker 3: opening from actor to director. How did you make that jump?
Speaker 2: It was very unlikely in those days. People stayed in
Speaker 2: their lane. There were a few examples before me on
Speaker 2: the Andy Griffith Show. Most of our directors had been actors,
Speaker 2: so I did recognize that that was a possibility, and
Speaker 2: at a very early age, some of those people who
Speaker 2: I respected said to me, starting around age nine or ten,
Speaker 2: I bet you're going to be a director. I just
Speaker 2: see the way you're watching and the way you work,
Speaker 2: and I just have a feeling of someday you're going
Speaker 2: to want to be the director. And I just fell
Speaker 2: in love with the idea of being a director, and
Speaker 2: by the time I was in my mid teens, it
Speaker 2: was really all I thought about. And the only real
Speaker 2: example just before me, Alan Alda was directing some of
Speaker 2: the Mash episodes and also starting to direct features. Woodie
Speaker 2: Allen was an actor who'd become a director, Michael Landon,
Speaker 2: who did Little House on the Prairie. He directed not
Speaker 2: only that show, but often a television movie almost every year.
Speaker 2: And so there were these examples, and I was just
Speaker 2: determined to follow it. But everyone was very patronizing about it.
Speaker 2: I mean they'd sort of say, well, cute kid, hang
Speaker 2: in there, and maybe in your thirties or forties, somebody'll
Speaker 2: let you direct some TV or something. But that wasn't
Speaker 2: what I had in mind. Well, it certainly worked out
Speaker 2: for you. Roger Corman was the key. Roger Corman was
Speaker 2: a very interesting guy, a great, great low budget B
Speaker 2: movie producer director. When I was struggling to get anyone
Speaker 2: to take me seriously, and I was making short films
Speaker 2: on the weekends and even beginning to make a short
Speaker 2: feature film in sixteen millimeter, one day Roger sent me
Speaker 2: this script to act in. Now Happy Days was becoming
Speaker 2: a real number one show, but I wasn't being offered
Speaker 2: a lot of great roles to act in. And it
Speaker 2: was called Eat My Dust. I read the script and
Speaker 2: didn't care for Eat My Dust. But I knew a
Speaker 2: lot about Roger Korman. I knew that Roger Korman had
Speaker 2: given Francis Koppol his first movie. He'd given Martin Scorsese
Speaker 2: his second movie. The list went on and on. So
Speaker 2: when I met with Roger, I said, I don't really
Speaker 2: love eating my dust, but what I really wanted to
Speaker 2: do was direct. And I handed him a script that
Speaker 2: my father and I had written together and some short
Speaker 2: films that I'd done, and he said, I'll look at
Speaker 2: him and i'll read. He called me back and he said, well,
Speaker 2: I can see that you can direct, and the writing
Speaker 2: is good. It's not the kind of movie that I make.
Speaker 2: That's a slice of life character movie. I would want
Speaker 2: you to do an action film or a genre picture
Speaker 2: of some sort. But if you'll act and eat my dust,
Speaker 2: and if it's successful, I'll let you develop a project
Speaker 2: with me, and if I do it, you'll direct it,
Speaker 2: so long as you're willing to be in it. If
Speaker 2: I choose not to do it, here's the guarantee, I'll
Speaker 2: let you direct the car crash unit on an action movie. Well,
Speaker 2: it wasn't exactly everything I was dreaming of in the
Speaker 2: way of a guarantee. It wasn't going to be Citizen
Speaker 2: Gain or some other remarkable first film, But it was
Speaker 2: the first serious opportunity that had ever been offered me,
Speaker 2: and I grabbed it and Eat My Dusk was successful
Speaker 2: enough that Roger wanted to make another car crash comedy.
Speaker 2: We cooked up a storyline that we could call Grand
Speaker 2: Theft Auto, which was a title that he thought would
Speaker 2: be commercial. It was the fastest green light I ever got,
Speaker 2: and a few months later I was directing my first film.
Speaker 3: Well it's a great story. You've directed a variety of genres,
Speaker 3: including true stories. You've never been to space, but you
Speaker 3: directed Apollo thirteen a mathematician. But you made a beautiful Mind.
Speaker 3: How do you make sense of these worlds?
Speaker 2: You know? I was not much of an academic. I did, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, better in history in English than certainly in
Speaker 2: math and science. I think I managed to scrape out
Speaker 2: a B in tenth grade algebra and maybe an AS
Speaker 2: in eleventh grade geometry, and that was the end of
Speaker 2: my education. There. Now I had a chance to direct
Speaker 2: a beautiful Mind. This was about mathematicians. Russell Crowe was
Speaker 2: cast to play the brilliant John Natsh. You know this
Speaker 2: theoretical mathematician. Now again, I know nothing about it. I
Speaker 2: was meeting with mathematicians and trying to understand what they
Speaker 2: thought when they were creating and when they were trying
Speaker 2: to problem solve and trying to come up with ways
Speaker 2: to cinematically evoke that. But I got Russell to come
Speaker 2: with me one day to visit this doctoral advisor who
Speaker 2: i'd met, who was working with a couple of his
Speaker 2: PhD candidates. They've got the chalk flying and they're erasing,
Speaker 2: and I mean, it's utter Greek, of course to me,
Speaker 2: but you know, I'm fascinated. I'm taking notes, I'm leaning
Speaker 2: in and I noticed Russell's sitting on the other side
Speaker 2: of the room, not near me, but he's getting kind
Speaker 2: of fidgety. Now we stop, we take a little break,
Speaker 2: we're outside, and Russell comes up to me and he
Speaker 2: kind of looks a little panicked. He says, I have
Speaker 2: no fucking idea what they're saying, do you, because if
Speaker 2: you do and I don't, I'm not sure I can
Speaker 2: even do this movie. I said, Russell, believe me, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't. But look at the way they're holding the chalk.
Speaker 2: And I said, and look, here's what I'm beginning to understand.
Speaker 2: Notation is a language Russell's also a musician. I said,
Speaker 2: do you read music? He said yeah. I said I don't,
Speaker 2: but you do. That's their music, those are their words,
Speaker 2: this is their language. They're communicating, they're creating. And he
Speaker 2: went back in and slowly but surely he began to
Speaker 2: understand what it was I was looking for and what
Speaker 2: we could fake, recreate and fool people with. Because at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's all an illusion, it's
Speaker 2: all a magic act. That's as close as I ever
Speaker 2: came to even vaguely understanding anything about math.
Speaker 3: But what I love about that is this whole podcast
Speaker 3: is about math and magic. It's about the intersection of
Speaker 3: the creative, the magicians, and the mathematicians the data, and
Speaker 3: that's what makes great marketing today.
Speaker 2: It's what makes amazing business.
Speaker 3: And obviously for you, it made a spectacular movie. Let's
Speaker 3: jump to today and the future AI everyone's talking about.
Speaker 3: It's definitely not going away, only it's more powerful. How
Speaker 3: do you harness it? How does it change what you do?
Speaker 2: So far? It's a really interesting tool. The most important
Speaker 2: thing is to protect copyright and to protect jobs to
Speaker 2: some extent, but I really feel that at this moment
Speaker 2: it's offering a lot of expediency. I don't think it's
Speaker 2: threatening to replace creators in any significant meaningful way. It
Speaker 2: is showing some promise, particularly an animation, a kind of
Speaker 2: expediency and cost cutting to a massive degree that while
Speaker 2: it will still need key creative people, the process may
Speaker 2: be simplified and sped up to the point where people
Speaker 2: can make animated films for a lot less even what
Speaker 2: might look like a live action movie. It's not going
Speaker 2: to be generated by a series of prompts. It just
Speaker 2: isn't working out that way. But through a series of prompts,
Speaker 2: ideas may emerge and feed human imagination in a compelling way.
Speaker 2: But even those films I think will just become the
Speaker 2: hyper realistic version of animated production. I think people will
Speaker 2: kind of sense that's not really a live action project,
Speaker 2: but that'll be okay if it's great, if it's a
Speaker 2: great story, that'll be fun. But I think there's still
Speaker 2: going to be plenty of room for projects where you're
Speaker 2: seeing a performance. It's just like going to the theater
Speaker 2: or live concerts. But it's definitely undeniably going to be
Speaker 2: a game changer and have an impact on the film, movie,
Speaker 2: and television economy.
Speaker 3: I want to end with you giving some advice. One
Speaker 3: you really do have a special sense about real America,
Speaker 3: what's really going on, not a victim of being one
Speaker 3: of the coastal elites. Any advice for advertisers trying to
Speaker 3: stay that tuned into America.
Speaker 2: How do you do it? Oh man? I think again
Speaker 2: it gets back to sort of what is the story
Speaker 2: you're trying to tell, because I think there are two
Speaker 2: stories that are valid. One is the simple one for
Speaker 2: certain individuals, a very simple set, basic set of aspects
Speaker 2: of our culture are very very important, and I think
Speaker 2: you need to know who you're speaking to. But I
Speaker 2: also think surprise, the surprise is how broadly sophisticated the
Speaker 2: population can actually be. And if you step away from
Speaker 2: sort of politicizing a point of view or diminishing something
Speaker 2: else in favor of an approach to life, I think
Speaker 2: we're a lot more blended than we even realize. And
Speaker 2: I think that stories that suggest that I'm just going
Speaker 2: to catch our eye a little bit more, they're just
Speaker 2: going to feel a little fresher. So there's kind of like,
Speaker 2: let's be really familiar in nostalgic, or let's recognize what
Speaker 2: the future holds, what the cutting edge is all about.
Speaker 2: And I think it's a good idea to recognize which
Speaker 2: one of those lanes you want to be in.
Speaker 3: Second piece of advice, there are people who obviously would
Speaker 3: love to have a career like yours who wouldn't. What
Speaker 3: advice do you have for directors, even creative they're at
Speaker 3: the beginning of their career.
Speaker 2: Well, I have a grandson who was just accepted to
Speaker 2: a usc film school and as a budding filmmaker, so
Speaker 2: we're kind of having these conversations, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: He's a talented young guy. It's story. It's story. And
Speaker 2: the other thing is is that technology is definitely going
Speaker 2: to be a game changer in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that the big giant production with one
Speaker 2: hundred technicians and associates, I'm not sure that's going to
Speaker 2: be the main stay. I think it's going to be
Speaker 2: about small groups of collaborators who know really how to
Speaker 2: work together. Something tells me that the future holds kind
Speaker 2: of an environment with almost like a lot of little
Speaker 2: feuter productions who are independent, independent production companies who are
Speaker 2: in the business of building ideas and getting them finance.
Speaker 2: And so I feel like that while big streamers, big
Speaker 2: studios and so were the they're not going away. But
Speaker 2: in terms of making a career, I think the first
Speaker 2: thing is really understand story your relationship to audiences through narrative,
Speaker 2: where is there alignment. They're your sensibilities and an audience's sensibilities.
Speaker 2: Understand that, even if it's a small audience but a
Speaker 2: passionate one, connect with that. Whereas YouTubers and the TikTokers
Speaker 2: they sort of do it through their personality. I think
Speaker 2: if you want to be a filmmaker a storyteller, you
Speaker 2: need to think about narrative, not just personality, and go
Speaker 2: beyond that and try to look around and find your
Speaker 2: group and rally together and make stuff. And if the
Speaker 2: studios and the platforms find you and want you, then
Speaker 2: you have leverage. But I think you can find a
Speaker 2: way to make a living. You may have to hustle,
Speaker 2: you may have to scramble, but I think small groups
Speaker 2: can figure out how to make a living together or
Speaker 2: will be able to in the near future. So that's
Speaker 2: my advice. But it also are so with understanding what
Speaker 2: you love and what audiences love, and how you can
Speaker 2: connect these things. These truths.
Speaker 3: Final piece of advice, you could go back in time
Speaker 3: and give some advice to your twenty one year old self.
Speaker 2: What would that advice be. I wish I was a
Speaker 2: little more fearless about collaboration. I did spend a few
Speaker 2: years being afraid I'd look bad, people would think I
Speaker 2: was stupid or green. And I slowly but surely kind
Speaker 2: of earned this credibility. And that's fine. I love where landed,
Speaker 2: but I feel like I spent some years fearing criticism
Speaker 2: instead of trusting my creative instincts and who I was
Speaker 2: to actually seek out collaborators who I knew were more
Speaker 2: experienced than I was, or smarter and more dynamic and
Speaker 2: more effective. I think I steered away from some opportunities
Speaker 2: to work with some pretty interesting actors early on because
Speaker 2: I was afraid I couldn't control them, and so I
Speaker 2: wouldn't call it a regret, but that would be the
Speaker 2: advice I would give young Ron.
Speaker 3: Ron, you have an amazing gift to find the heart
Speaker 3: in every story. You have had such diverse experiences and successes.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for sharing the wisdom and insights that
Speaker 3: come from that with us today.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, thank you. Fun to talk about this stuff.
Speaker 3: Here are a few things I picked up from my
Speaker 3: conversation with Ron. One, A great leader welcomes input from
Speaker 3: their team. As a director, Ron gets final say on
Speaker 3: what goes into his films, but when he accepts a
Speaker 3: collaborator's idea, they understand and execute it an authentic way
Speaker 3: That can lead to magic. When you're excited to give
Speaker 3: your team ownership an idea, it creates a unified vision
Speaker 3: and makes the final product even stronger.
Speaker 2: Two.
Speaker 3: Great marketing needs to have a y. Ron is a
Speaker 3: master storyteller, and what makes those stories successful is the
Speaker 3: connection he creates with his audience. If you can identify
Speaker 3: the core values and themes of your message.
Speaker 2: You can also figure out what makes it special.
Speaker 3: Even in a creative industry, you need a great pitch
Speaker 3: to sell something meaningful to your customers. Three seese the
Speaker 3: big opportunity, even if it's not exactly what you hope for.
Speaker 3: When Ron got an offer to act and Eat My Dust,
Speaker 3: he wasn't eager about the role, but he saw a
Speaker 3: chance for leverage to direct. Ron didn't have many guarantees
Speaker 3: going in, but he was soon directing his first film.
Speaker 3: A green light doesn't come around. Often, if a door
Speaker 3: to your dream cracks open, you have to grab it
Speaker 3: and then work to make it something special.
Speaker 2: I'm Bob Pipman. Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: To Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts, is
Speaker 1: created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney
Speaker 1: Rosenbloom for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is
Speaker 1: no small feat. The Math and Magic team is Jessica
Speaker 1: Crimechich and Baheed Fraser. Our executive producers are Ali Perry
Speaker 1: and Nikki Etoor.
Speaker 2: Until next time