1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts. 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 2: Where is there alignment there your sensibilities and an audience's sensibilities. 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: I think if you want to be a filmmaker, it 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: all starts with understanding what you love and what audiences love, 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: and how you can connect these things, these truths. I 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: am Bob Pittman. 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 3: Welcome to this episode of Math and Magic, Stories from 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 3: the Frontiers and Marketing. Today, we're going to explore storytelling 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 3: and the business of movie and TV production with a 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 3: focus on creativity and audience engagement, and we're going to 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: learn from one of the greatest directors of our generation, 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 3: Ron Howard. Ron was born in Oklahoma, grew up in 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 3: LA was an amazingly successful child actor, starting with his 14 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 3: character on the long running Andy Griffith's Show, but continued 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 3: that momentum with his roles in American Graffiti and Happy Days. 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: He then did what few actors do. He made the 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 3: jump to director, and he did it at a super 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: young age. 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: With a body of work that has geen. 20 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 3: Re versatility and huge box office success as well as 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 3: critical acclaim. He's won Academy Awards, Emmy's Golden globes and more, 22 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 3: and he's got a lot to tell us about connecting 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 3: with audiences, effective storytelling, and collaboration the most important. He's 24 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 3: one of the most thoughtful and nicest. 25 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: Power players in Hollywood. Ron welcome, well, thank you. Thanks 26 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: for that. Intro don't know if I can live up 27 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 2: to all that, but we'll see what we can. 28 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Do before we dig into the meaty stuff. I want 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 3: to do you in sixty seconds, Ready to go? 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: All right? Try me? Cats are dogs? Oh you see, 31 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: I'm not such a black and white guy. If I 32 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: really had to choose, I'll go with dog. But I've 33 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: got a lot of affections for cats. 34 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: I won't tell any of the cats you decided against 35 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 3: them Early Riser Er, night Out, early. 36 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: Riser, City or country. I love people, and there's more 37 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: of them there in the city, East Coast or West Coast. 38 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: I prefer the East Coast for you. An introvert or extrovert, 39 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: introvert happy to talk to people, just a little socially reluctant. 40 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: Fiction or documentary. I love the docs. America graffiti or 41 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: the studio. Well, American graffiti holds a very special place 42 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: in my heart. Directing a comedy or drama. Drama. I 43 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: just love the simple truth of it. What's your favorite 44 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: all time movie? I keep going back to one floor 45 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: over the Cuckoo's Nest. Biggest lesson from fifty years of 46 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: marriage talk, even when you do not want to know, 47 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: you can solve the problem if you are willing to 48 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: face the conversation. You just saved everybody a lot of 49 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: money on marriage counseling. Thank you. 50 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 3: So before we jump into the real meaty stuff. After 51 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: watching your episode on the studio, one question, is it 52 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: really that hard for studio executives to give notes to 53 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: the big directors? 54 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: Well, not me, unfortunately, and I don't talk to people 55 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: that way, nor have I ever thrown my hat all. 56 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: I will own up to the fact that that was 57 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: my improvised moment that Seth Rogan agreed to. And then 58 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: between the rehearsals and the shooting I must have thrown 59 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: my hat in his face a dozen times. But he 60 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: laughed every time. That great Seth Rogan laughed. So that 61 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: was a fun day. You know. It does depend that 62 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: was a loaded situation that they created where a director 63 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: has a deep emotional connection to an aspect of the 64 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: movie that they feel needs to be edited or even xcize. 65 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: That's a challenge. And then when you're taking on a 66 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: director who has final cut, who could basically say screw 67 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 2: it and walk away and enforce it, it's tricky territory. 68 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 3: So now let's jump into the real stuff. You and 69 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: I are about the same age. I grew up in 70 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: rural Mississippi in the fifties and sixties. The Andy griff 71 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: of the show was the first show I can remember 72 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: that connected with me. I could see myself in the 73 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 3: town and with the characters, including yours. And in those 74 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 3: days we only had three TV networks, and actually in 75 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 3: my town we can only pick up two of them. 76 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly what the impact your show had 77 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: on us from disenfranchised to America, but I know it 78 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: was powerful. Did the people on the creative side doing 79 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: that show have any idea of that real impact and 80 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: any deliberate focus on the heartland? I think it was 81 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: really interesting that that show seemed to have such respect 82 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: for rural America. 83 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: Well, you know, you're very perceptive. I more than once 84 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: remember Andy Griffith after a read through, always cutting out 85 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: jokes that he thought were sort of farcical or vaudevillian, 86 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: and I remember him killing a joke that the writers loved. 87 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: He said, look, the South is plenty funny without stooping 88 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: to that sort of character assassination to try to get 89 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: a joke and try to get a laugh. And so 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: he understood where the humor was and he built his 91 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: career on it. And yes, Bob, that tone that you're 92 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: talking about is something that he helped define to begin with, 93 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: and protected and built throughout the eight years. And the 94 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: remarkable thing about Andy Griffiths show is even as times 95 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: changed and the show shifted with it. The show went 96 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: from black and white to color. Even some of the 97 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: themes and the lessons that were taught and shared, they 98 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: even shifted with the tumult of the sixties because our 99 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: show started in sixty and we went off the air 100 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 2: in sixty eight. But interestingly, in nineteen sixty eight, three 101 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: years after Don Knots had left, after the show had 102 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 2: been on for eight years, we actually were the number 103 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: one show in the entire country for the entire season, 104 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: and that was the year that Andy retired the show. 105 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: But I just will never forget him sort of defending 106 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: the characters yet loving them when they were funny, loving 107 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: them when they were silly, as long as they remained honest. 108 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 3: As a director and a creative I think everyone would 109 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: point out that you have this incredible sense of what 110 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 3: we'll call real America. Do you think that it's rooted 111 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 3: in the show that you did early on or was 112 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 3: it something else that gave you that sort of insight 113 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: which you carry with you today. 114 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think it definitely was rooted in this show. 115 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: Everybody took it very seriously. There was a lot of laughter, 116 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 2: and in fact, I learned that the environment could be playful, 117 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: people could be having a good time, but there were 118 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: also moments to buckle down and make sure that we 119 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: were delivering for the audience and that we were maximizing 120 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: the entertainment value and the ideas behind each story. And 121 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: so as gentle and easy going as all those episodes seem, 122 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: there was a lot of effort that went into it. 123 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: So I got to witness that balance, and I try 124 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: to carry that attitude and that approach with me as 125 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 2: a filmmaker, and even that collaboration, that spirit of collaboration, 126 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: because while there was a director and there were producers, 127 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: and the buck stopped somewhere, it wasn't in the actors' hands. 128 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: Actors were allowed to contribute, encouraged to contribute. I try 129 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: to keep that environment going in my work as well, 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: and I really, in fact, I think it's one of 131 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: the things that keeps me going is the array of 132 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: collaborators from all walks of life in every corner of 133 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: the planet that I get to engage with. It just 134 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: keeps it really fresh and exciting, and I keep learning. 135 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: But my parents were very earthy. With my dad, my 136 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 2: brother Clint, and I would often refer in later years 137 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: to his sort of approach to life as kind of 138 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: Midwestern zen. There's a go with the flow, sort of 139 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: a recognition of what you can and can't control, and 140 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: what are the limits of your strength, and yet a 141 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: willingness to assert kind of everything you have as long 142 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: as you can control something. And I think he just 143 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: learned that as a farm boy growing up. He also 144 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: really learned how to work. I don't think he was 145 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: allergic to the idea of Clint and I working at 146 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: a very early age, because he was doing real chores 147 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: at age five, with a real responsibility, like don't break 148 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: the eggs and make sure the cow gets milked. So 149 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: I think both Clinton and I just grew up around 150 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: that kind of mentality and also that post World War 151 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: two optimism that everyone is so nostalgic about. 152 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting I think you mentioned and it 153 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: just comes to mind. I was living in a very 154 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 3: small town in Mississippi and in the fifth grade I 155 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: was hired by a men's clothing store to sweep out 156 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 3: and clean up the store every day after it closed. 157 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 3: I think, I mean, that's be thrown in jail for 158 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 3: child labor, but to me it didn't seem so weird, 159 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: and I got spending money. But that was obviously another time, 160 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: and that was really rural America with a different set 161 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 3: of values. 162 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 2: And I think that kind of sense of responsibility. I mean, 163 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: it's sort of difficult to impart in this day and age, 164 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: and it's not like we want ten year olds cleaning 165 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: out the store. But it's also one of the reasons 166 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: that I believe, when well supervised, that being a child 167 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: performer can be a healthy experience. It's challenging. I didn't 168 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: let my kids act as kids, even though several of 169 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 2: them clearly had the talent, and my oldest daughter, Bryce 170 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: Bryce Dallas Howard, you know, it's been her career and 171 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: now she's also directing. But you know, I'm very grateful 172 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: for the fact that at an early age I learned 173 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: how to be a part of something that was productive 174 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 2: and creative and exciting. You know, I've built my whole 175 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: adult life around that feeling. Can you talk a. 176 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 3: Little bit collaboration. You've mentioned that's a word that's often 177 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 3: used with you. Seems to be a very powerful weapon 178 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 3: in your arsenal. I mean, you've had some great partnerships 179 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: over time. Can you tell us a little bit about 180 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: how you think about collaboration and what spokes not understand 181 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 3: about how to make collaboration work. What's that common mistake 182 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 3: that needs to be avoided? 183 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it was a mistake that I think 184 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: I was making early on as a director because I 185 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: was so young. You know, I began directing my first 186 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 2: professional film the day after my twenty third birthday, and 187 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: for that and the next couple of films, as sort 188 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: of generally the youngest person on the set yet in charge, 189 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 2: I think I felt like I had to have all 190 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: the answers and make them be decisive and make them 191 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: quick and stick to them. And I slowly but truly 192 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: began to realize that I was short changing myself, and 193 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: as I began to listen a bit more, my work 194 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 2: got so much better. The other thing that I learned 195 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: at a certain point is that if as a leader 196 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: and look, everybody sees the director as the needed authority. 197 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: It's not a democracy. Films and television shows they need 198 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: to be led. It's very dynamic. Decisions are made quickly. 199 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: A lot of money is being spent very quickly, so 200 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: they look to the director. They want the director to 201 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: be right. But I found that when I invited input 202 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: more the way it was invited on The Andy Griffith 203 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: Show during the rehearsals, that not only was I getting 204 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: a lot of great ideas that I could use that 205 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: was exciting, but two things happened. One, the ideas that 206 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 2: were arrived at, the decisions that were arrived at that 207 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: were born of somebody else's suggestion, there was a little 208 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: X factor there. They understood it in some intrinsic way 209 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: when they owned the idea. There was something a little magical, 210 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 2: some intangible something that I really witnessed over and over again. 211 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: And the other thing is that when they know that 212 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: you're excited, not only willing, but actually excited to say 213 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: yes and include them in the process. It's so much 214 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: easier to say no. They recognize that there's an editorial 215 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 2: process underway. 216 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 3: Is that the way you keep collaboration from becoming consensus 217 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: and watering down your vision. 218 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 2: Yes. Often there are suggestions that at first glance they 219 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: feel right or there's a consensus. Yet when you really 220 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: put it under the microscope, you recognize that that's actually 221 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: sacrificing a value, a deeper value, a theme, you know, 222 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: an aspect of a character that needs to evolve and 223 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: pay off in a particular way. And so people may 224 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 2: wish for a specific moment at a specific time, and 225 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: they might all agree that they really wish this moment 226 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: you liked the character instead of dislike the character, or 227 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: it was funny instead of sad, for example. But you 228 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 2: may need to go against that in order to protect 229 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: a more important moment down the road. And so that 230 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 2: becomes this process of evaluating input, and that's a little exhausted. 231 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: There are times when I think to myself, man, there 232 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: are a lot of voices we're weighing options. I just 233 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: need to cut through the clutter here and make a 234 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: call and you know, I do that, and it's fine. 235 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 3: You mentioned that it's easier to say no once you've 236 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: said yes and bit inclusive in the process. How is 237 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 3: that part of or how do you handle dissent in 238 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 3: this creative collaboration when somebody fundamentally disagrees, Well. 239 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: It depends who they are with actors, and I value 240 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: actors and their contributions to the absolute max. I will 241 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: often take the time for them to be able to 242 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: try a shot or scene or choice their way, and 243 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: then also ask them to give the version that I'm 244 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: looking for as well. And the caliber of actors that 245 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 2: I work with that I'm lucky enough to work with, 246 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: they never sandbag that. I tell them very honestly. I 247 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: will take both to the editing room and really seriously 248 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: consider it, and I'd say it's about fifty to fifty 249 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: as to which choice I take in the final cut, 250 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: and as long as it achieves the objective. You know 251 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: what I do in these situations where it's kind of 252 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: in either or if it achieves the narrative goal or 253 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: the entertainment value that we're looking for in a moment 254 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 2: or a scene. If it's funny, if it's sad, if 255 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: it's scary if it's surprising and the actor's choice is 256 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: different than mine in terms of how to get there, 257 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: but what they achieve is the same. The function is there. 258 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: I always go with their idea. I always go with 259 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: their idea. Again, back to that notion that well, they 260 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: own that one. They understand that right to their core. 261 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: It almost always benefits the scene. But there are times 262 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: when's not a consensus and I say, no, I just 263 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: I really feel this way about it. Hope you understand, 264 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: And they really always do. I can't really think of 265 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: a situation where I haven't gotten the takes that I 266 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: thought I needed to tell the story in the way 267 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: that I believed was most likely to work. But I 268 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: also can't begin to count the number of times I've 269 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: benefited from saying, yeah, let's try it that way. Moral Mathemagic. 270 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: Right after this quick break, welcome back to mathem Magic. 271 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: Hear more from my conversation with Ron Howard. This podcast 272 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: is rooted in marketing, and one of the essential skills 273 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: for marketers is being able to tell the story of 274 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: the product or brand. You are an extraordinary storyteller. What 275 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: advice would you give them on how to construct the 276 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: most compelling story to connect to the audiences. 277 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: Wow, Bob, you know, I wish Brian Grazier was on 278 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: this podcast with us because our partnership, which is coming 279 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: on to forty years formally just since we formed Imagine, 280 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: is kind of brilliant and exactly what you're talking about. 281 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: And I think it's one of the reasons we've had 282 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: a lot of successes with Imagine is he's able to 283 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: understand that kind of the artistic value of an idea, 284 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: the entertainment value of an idea, but also innately just 285 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: have a sense of how it might reach an audience 286 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 2: and what it might mean to an audience. To try 287 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: to answer your question, I think you always want to 288 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: get down to the essence of what the story is, 289 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 2: what the narrative is. And by the way, in recent years, 290 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 2: we've started working with brands a lot. We have a 291 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: division to Imagine that Mark Gilbar runs it that works 292 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: closely with brands. But one of the things that Brian 293 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: found first and I'm on board with and agree with 294 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: completely is often the brands do offer a set of themes, values, 295 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: a history that suggests certain narratives that are pretty entertaining, 296 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: and so we don't do TV commercials, but we've been 297 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: able to find ways to sort of build on those 298 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: narratives in fun ways and do a lot of work 299 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: with brands that I really enjoy. But I think when 300 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: you get at that essence, you understand what the relationship is, 301 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: what the proposition is for your customer. In our case, 302 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: it's an audience. So what is the utility and what 303 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: is your promise? And how do you deliver? And why 304 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: is it special? You want to be able to answer 305 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: those questions about a movie project or a television show. 306 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 2: You want to understand what the possibility is to live 307 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: up to that. Why can you be special? Why will 308 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: you mean something to an audience member who takes the 309 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 2: time and spends the money to watch the story you're telling. 310 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 3: And by the way, with Brian, it is one of 311 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 3: the things I didn't mention here but should is that 312 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 3: you also built a business structure around what you do. 313 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 3: You and Brian would imagine and for people who are 314 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 3: not my age, who are very early I can remember 315 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 3: when You Guys first came out. 316 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: It was maybe one of the hottest IPOs. 317 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 3: You couldn't buy stock, everybody who was clamoring for it, 318 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: and you really set a standard that I think a 319 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 3: lot of folks tried to copy after that, but you guys. 320 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: Were really the innovators there. I always wanted to be 321 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 2: a producer as well. I was always interested in having 322 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: as much control and autonomy, and I think a lot 323 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: of that came from the fact that growing up in 324 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 2: my father was an actor and a writer, but always 325 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: freelance and always waiting for that phone during and I 326 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: wanted to be involved in a company, in a partnership 327 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: that would help generate that workflow with as much control 328 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: as possible. So when Brian and I came together, we'd 329 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: each had small companies of our own, so it was 330 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 2: in a way it was kind of a little merger 331 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,719 Speaker 2: and began to build. Imagine you know, it was an 332 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: exciting time. We've had a long journey, eventful in a 333 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 2: lot of ways, plenty of ops, some challenges too, and 334 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: yet this is such an exciting moment for a company. 335 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: It's hell if you're a platform or a studio or 336 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: a network trying to figure out what to invest in. 337 00:18:53,720 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: But if you're a creator, just believing in ideas, aggregating talent, 338 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: finding great collaborators and getting stuff made, it's pretty thrilling. 339 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: That's what we're finding out. The hard work still sure 340 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: hasn't gotten any easier. In fact, it seems like we 341 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: keep having to reinvent ourselves every few years. But maybe 342 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: that's what keeps it fresh and fun for us. 343 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: You made this improbable jump. I mentioned it in the 344 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 3: opening from actor to director. How did you make that jump? 345 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: It was very unlikely in those days. People stayed in 346 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: their lane. There were a few examples before me on 347 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: the Andy Griffith Show. Most of our directors had been actors, 348 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: so I did recognize that that was a possibility, and 349 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: at a very early age, some of those people who 350 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 2: I respected said to me, starting around age nine or ten, 351 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: I bet you're going to be a director. I just 352 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: see the way you're watching and the way you work, 353 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: and I just have a feeling of someday you're going 354 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 2: to want to be the director. And I just fell 355 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 2: in love with the idea of being a director, and 356 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 2: by the time I was in my mid teens, it 357 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: was really all I thought about. And the only real 358 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 2: example just before me, Alan Alda was directing some of 359 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: the Mash episodes and also starting to direct features. Woodie 360 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 2: Allen was an actor who'd become a director, Michael Landon, 361 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: who did Little House on the Prairie. He directed not 362 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 2: only that show, but often a television movie almost every year. 363 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: And so there were these examples, and I was just 364 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: determined to follow it. But everyone was very patronizing about it. 365 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: I mean they'd sort of say, well, cute kid, hang 366 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: in there, and maybe in your thirties or forties, somebody'll 367 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: let you direct some TV or something. But that wasn't 368 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: what I had in mind. Well, it certainly worked out 369 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: for you. Roger Corman was the key. Roger Corman was 370 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: a very interesting guy, a great, great low budget B 371 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: movie producer director. When I was struggling to get anyone 372 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: to take me seriously, and I was making short films 373 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 2: on the weekends and even beginning to make a short 374 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: feature film in sixteen millimeter, one day Roger sent me 375 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: this script to act in. Now Happy Days was becoming 376 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: a real number one show, but I wasn't being offered 377 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: a lot of great roles to act in. And it 378 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: was called Eat My Dust. I read the script and 379 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: didn't care for Eat My Dust. But I knew a 380 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,239 Speaker 2: lot about Roger Korman. I knew that Roger Korman had 381 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 2: given Francis Koppol his first movie. He'd given Martin Scorsese 382 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: his second movie. The list went on and on. So 383 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 2: when I met with Roger, I said, I don't really 384 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: love eating my dust, but what I really wanted to 385 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: do was direct. And I handed him a script that 386 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: my father and I had written together and some short 387 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: films that I'd done, and he said, I'll look at 388 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: him and i'll read. He called me back and he said, well, 389 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: I can see that you can direct, and the writing 390 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 2: is good. It's not the kind of movie that I make. 391 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: That's a slice of life character movie. I would want 392 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: you to do an action film or a genre picture 393 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: of some sort. But if you'll act and eat my dust, 394 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 2: and if it's successful, I'll let you develop a project 395 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 2: with me, and if I do it, you'll direct it, 396 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: so long as you're willing to be in it. If 397 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: I choose not to do it, here's the guarantee, I'll 398 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: let you direct the car crash unit on an action movie. Well, 399 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't exactly everything I was dreaming of in the 400 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: way of a guarantee. It wasn't going to be Citizen 401 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 2: Gain or some other remarkable first film, But it was 402 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 2: the first serious opportunity that had ever been offered me, 403 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: and I grabbed it and Eat My Dusk was successful 404 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: enough that Roger wanted to make another car crash comedy. 405 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: We cooked up a storyline that we could call Grand 406 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 2: Theft Auto, which was a title that he thought would 407 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 2: be commercial. It was the fastest green light I ever got, 408 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: and a few months later I was directing my first film. 409 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 3: Well it's a great story. You've directed a variety of genres, 410 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 3: including true stories. You've never been to space, but you 411 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 3: directed Apollo thirteen a mathematician. But you made a beautiful Mind. 412 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: How do you make sense of these worlds? 413 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: You know? I was not much of an academic. I did, okay, 414 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: you know, better in history in English than certainly in 415 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: math and science. I think I managed to scrape out 416 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: a B in tenth grade algebra and maybe an AS 417 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: in eleventh grade geometry, and that was the end of 418 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: my education. There. Now I had a chance to direct 419 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: a beautiful Mind. This was about mathematicians. Russell Crowe was 420 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: cast to play the brilliant John Natsh. You know this 421 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: theoretical mathematician. Now again, I know nothing about it. I 422 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: was meeting with mathematicians and trying to understand what they 423 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 2: thought when they were creating and when they were trying 424 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: to problem solve and trying to come up with ways 425 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: to cinematically evoke that. But I got Russell to come 426 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 2: with me one day to visit this doctoral advisor who 427 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: i'd met, who was working with a couple of his 428 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: PhD candidates. They've got the chalk flying and they're erasing, 429 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: and I mean, it's utter Greek, of course to me, 430 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 2: but you know, I'm fascinated. I'm taking notes, I'm leaning 431 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: in and I noticed Russell's sitting on the other side 432 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: of the room, not near me, but he's getting kind 433 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 2: of fidgety. Now we stop, we take a little break, 434 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 2: we're outside, and Russell comes up to me and he 435 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: kind of looks a little panicked. He says, I have 436 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 2: no fucking idea what they're saying, do you, because if 437 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: you do and I don't, I'm not sure I can 438 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 2: even do this movie. I said, Russell, believe me, I don't. 439 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: I don't. But look at the way they're holding the chalk. 440 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 2: And I said, and look, here's what I'm beginning to understand. 441 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: Notation is a language Russell's also a musician. I said, 442 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 2: do you read music? He said yeah. I said I don't, 443 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: but you do. That's their music, those are their words, 444 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: this is their language. They're communicating, they're creating. And he 445 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: went back in and slowly but surely he began to 446 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: understand what it was I was looking for and what 447 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: we could fake, recreate and fool people with. Because at 448 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 2: the end of the day, it's all an illusion, it's 449 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: all a magic act. That's as close as I ever 450 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: came to even vaguely understanding anything about math. 451 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: But what I love about that is this whole podcast 452 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 3: is about math and magic. It's about the intersection of 453 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 3: the creative, the magicians, and the mathematicians the data, and 454 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: that's what makes great marketing today. 455 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: It's what makes amazing business. 456 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 3: And obviously for you, it made a spectacular movie. Let's 457 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 3: jump to today and the future AI everyone's talking about. 458 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 3: It's definitely not going away, only it's more powerful. How 459 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 3: do you harness it? How does it change what you do? 460 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: So far? It's a really interesting tool. The most important 461 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: thing is to protect copyright and to protect jobs to 462 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: some extent, but I really feel that at this moment 463 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: it's offering a lot of expediency. I don't think it's 464 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: threatening to replace creators in any significant meaningful way. It 465 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: is showing some promise, particularly an animation, a kind of 466 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: expediency and cost cutting to a massive degree that while 467 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: it will still need key creative people, the process may 468 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: be simplified and sped up to the point where people 469 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 2: can make animated films for a lot less even what 470 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 2: might look like a live action movie. It's not going 471 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 2: to be generated by a series of prompts. It just 472 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 2: isn't working out that way. But through a series of prompts, 473 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 2: ideas may emerge and feed human imagination in a compelling way. 474 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: But even those films I think will just become the 475 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: hyper realistic version of animated production. I think people will 476 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: kind of sense that's not really a live action project, 477 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: but that'll be okay if it's great, if it's a 478 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 2: great story, that'll be fun. But I think there's still 479 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: going to be plenty of room for projects where you're 480 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 2: seeing a performance. It's just like going to the theater 481 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: or live concerts. But it's definitely undeniably going to be 482 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: a game changer and have an impact on the film, movie, 483 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: and television economy. 484 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 3: I want to end with you giving some advice. One 485 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: you really do have a special sense about real America, 486 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 3: what's really going on, not a victim of being one 487 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: of the coastal elites. Any advice for advertisers trying to 488 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 3: stay that tuned into America. 489 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: How do you do it? Oh man? I think again 490 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: it gets back to sort of what is the story 491 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: you're trying to tell, because I think there are two 492 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: stories that are valid. One is the simple one for 493 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: certain individuals, a very simple set, basic set of aspects 494 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: of our culture are very very important, and I think 495 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: you need to know who you're speaking to. But I 496 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: also think surprise, the surprise is how broadly sophisticated the 497 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: population can actually be. And if you step away from 498 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: sort of politicizing a point of view or diminishing something 499 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: else in favor of an approach to life, I think 500 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 2: we're a lot more blended than we even realize. And 501 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: I think that stories that suggest that I'm just going 502 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: to catch our eye a little bit more, they're just 503 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: going to feel a little fresher. So there's kind of like, 504 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: let's be really familiar in nostalgic, or let's recognize what 505 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: the future holds, what the cutting edge is all about. 506 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: And I think it's a good idea to recognize which 507 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 2: one of those lanes you want to be in. 508 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 3: Second piece of advice, there are people who obviously would 509 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: love to have a career like yours who wouldn't. What 510 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: advice do you have for directors, even creative they're at 511 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 3: the beginning of their career. 512 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: Well, I have a grandson who was just accepted to 513 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: a usc film school and as a budding filmmaker, so 514 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: we're kind of having these conversations, thank you, thank you. 515 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: He's a talented young guy. It's story. It's story. And 516 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: the other thing is is that technology is definitely going 517 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: to be a game changer in a lot of ways. 518 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that the big giant production with one 519 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: hundred technicians and associates, I'm not sure that's going to 520 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: be the main stay. I think it's going to be 521 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 2: about small groups of collaborators who know really how to 522 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: work together. Something tells me that the future holds kind 523 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: of an environment with almost like a lot of little 524 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: feuter productions who are independent, independent production companies who are 525 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: in the business of building ideas and getting them finance. 526 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: And so I feel like that while big streamers, big 527 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: studios and so were the they're not going away. But 528 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: in terms of making a career, I think the first 529 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: thing is really understand story your relationship to audiences through narrative, 530 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: where is there alignment. They're your sensibilities and an audience's sensibilities. 531 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: Understand that, even if it's a small audience but a 532 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: passionate one, connect with that. Whereas YouTubers and the TikTokers 533 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: they sort of do it through their personality. I think 534 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: if you want to be a filmmaker a storyteller, you 535 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: need to think about narrative, not just personality, and go 536 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: beyond that and try to look around and find your 537 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: group and rally together and make stuff. And if the 538 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: studios and the platforms find you and want you, then 539 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: you have leverage. But I think you can find a 540 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: way to make a living. You may have to hustle, 541 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: you may have to scramble, but I think small groups 542 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: can figure out how to make a living together or 543 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: will be able to in the near future. So that's 544 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: my advice. But it also are so with understanding what 545 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 2: you love and what audiences love, and how you can 546 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 2: connect these things. These truths. 547 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 3: Final piece of advice, you could go back in time 548 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 3: and give some advice to your twenty one year old self. 549 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 2: What would that advice be. I wish I was a 550 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 2: little more fearless about collaboration. I did spend a few 551 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 2: years being afraid I'd look bad, people would think I 552 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: was stupid or green. And I slowly but surely kind 553 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: of earned this credibility. And that's fine. I love where landed, 554 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: but I feel like I spent some years fearing criticism 555 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: instead of trusting my creative instincts and who I was 556 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: to actually seek out collaborators who I knew were more 557 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: experienced than I was, or smarter and more dynamic and 558 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: more effective. I think I steered away from some opportunities 559 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: to work with some pretty interesting actors early on because 560 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: I was afraid I couldn't control them, and so I 561 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't call it a regret, but that would be the 562 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 2: advice I would give young Ron. 563 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: Ron, you have an amazing gift to find the heart 564 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 3: in every story. You have had such diverse experiences and successes. 565 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for sharing the wisdom and insights that 566 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 3: come from that with us today. 567 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, thank you. Fun to talk about this stuff. 568 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 3: Here are a few things I picked up from my 569 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 3: conversation with Ron. One, A great leader welcomes input from 570 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: their team. As a director, Ron gets final say on 571 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 3: what goes into his films, but when he accepts a 572 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 3: collaborator's idea, they understand and execute it an authentic way 573 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 3: That can lead to magic. When you're excited to give 574 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: your team ownership an idea, it creates a unified vision 575 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 3: and makes the final product even stronger. 576 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: Two. 577 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 3: Great marketing needs to have a y. Ron is a 578 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: master storyteller, and what makes those stories successful is the 579 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 3: connection he creates with his audience. If you can identify 580 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 3: the core values and themes of your message. 581 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: You can also figure out what makes it special. 582 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 3: Even in a creative industry, you need a great pitch 583 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: to sell something meaningful to your customers. Three seese the 584 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 3: big opportunity, even if it's not exactly what you hope for. 585 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 3: When Ron got an offer to act and Eat My Dust, 586 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 3: he wasn't eager about the role, but he saw a 587 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 3: chance for leverage to direct. Ron didn't have many guarantees 588 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 3: going in, but he was soon directing his first film. 589 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: A green light doesn't come around. Often, if a door 590 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,719 Speaker 3: to your dream cracks open, you have to grab it 591 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 3: and then work to make it something special. 592 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 2: I'm Bob Pipman. Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode. 593 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. 594 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: To Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts, is 595 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney 596 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: Rosenbloom for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is 597 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: no small feat. The Math and Magic team is Jessica 598 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: Crimechich and Baheed Fraser. Our executive producers are Ali Perry 599 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 1: and Nikki Etoor. 600 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: Until next time