WEBVTT - Charles Koch 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.920 Charles Coke turned his father's small business into one of 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.400 the most profitable private companies in America. Now he's heavily 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.639 focused on giving back to his community. On this episode 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.239 Appear Appear, Charles Coke and the head of his philanthropic endeavors, 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.720 Brian Hooks, sit down with me to discuss how they 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.800 are applying to his philanthropic work the principles that made 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:25.720 Charles so successful in business. Charles and Brian, welcome to 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.160 our show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks, David, appreciate it. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.640 Now both of you have co authored a new book 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.240 called Believing People. You are, Charles eighty five years old, 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.879 and most people who are business people are eighty five 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:44.280 years old are not writing books about social entrepreneurship or philanthropy. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.080 They're doing other things. Why did you decide at this 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.360 age you wanted to write another book with Brian? Well, 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.120 actually it's uh. I started on this book or doing 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:58.080 the research probably sixty years ago with these ideas and uh, 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.720 and then I started writing at five years ago. And 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:08.440 my gifts, whatever they are, are mainly in abstract concepts, math, 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.279 other abstract concepts. So the book was mainly about theory 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.120 and history. It wasn't measuring up in the meantime. Under 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.440 under Brian's leadership at Stand Together, we were using these 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.760 ideas to empower more people, to actually show how it 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:32.640 works today and transforms people's lives. And so I said 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:34.679 at the end, I said, Brian, I don't have a 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.679 book that I believe will do what I want. You 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.640 need to come in and help me finish it, get 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.400 it re re restructured. And that's what he did. The 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.480 reason I wrote it is and I started on it 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:55.400 five years ago, is is I wanted to help everybody 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.560 have the benefit of the ideas that transformed my life 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.360 and enabled me to achieve more than I ever believe 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.840 possible and have done so for many others. And those 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:12.959 are basically what I call the principles of human progress. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:17.480 And those start with recognizing that everyone has a gift, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.360 everyone has something to offer, which they will do if 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:27.600 they're empowered to do so. The essence of your philanthropic 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.480 philosophy and your life philosophy, if I could put it 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.440 in my words, is that it's bottom up, not top down. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:36.960 In other words, empower people at the bottom and let 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.600 them make decisions and let those filter up as opposed 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.760 to people the top, telling people to bottom what they do. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.080 Is that more or less correct? Well, it's yeah, but 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:48.919 it's I mean, this starts with with recognizing that everyone 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.960 has something to offer and if they're not and they're 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.440 not contributing, we need to work with them and we 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.320 can to empower them so they all the institution in 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.760 society need to be focused on that rather than telling 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:09.880 them what to do, in limiting them and stifling them. Okay, Brian. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.480 In addition to writing this book together, how have you 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.120 two work together over the years. Well, I've I've worked 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.200 with Charles in one way or another for twenty years now, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.919 and so Stand Together is a philanthropic community. We work 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.280 with several hundred business leaders and philanthropists to try to 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.919 improve our effectiveness and helping empower people to live better lives. Now, 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.400 running Stand Together must be uh not easy. But you 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.040 have no gray hair? How come I hide it? Well? 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.360 Hide it well to say, it's been twenty years and 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.000 they've been productive, but long years. He gets to work 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.680 with me, David, that's I mean, that keeps it. I 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.160 I have all the gray hair. Well, it's like me, 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.160 My hair is dark, but I diet grace. So I 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.600 look more mature, Brian. Let me ask you a question. Um, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.800 I've been involved a bit in philanthropy myself, and when 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.120 I decide I want to give money away to somebody, 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.200 I call him up and they usually are only to 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.800 take it or something like that. Why does somebody need 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.640 your organization to help them give away the money that 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:07.880 they already have. What do you do for somebody that 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.040 they can't do themselves? Well? The whole thesis of Stand Together, 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.160 and what we've learned over the last twenty years or 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.880 so is that as effective as individuals can be on 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.000 their own, we can all be more more effective. We 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.520 have a greater impact when we pool our knowledge and 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.760 we combined our resources. So give you an example. You know, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.440 one of the issues that we've worked on a lot 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:32.200 is criminal justice reform and and criminal justice system, which 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.080 is you know, full of terrible tragedies, has been kind 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.080 of stuck in a rut for at least a generation, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.120 and there's been a lot of good attempts to try 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.200 to make progress, but they tended to be kind of 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.800 narrowly focused. And the real breakthrough and criminal justice came 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.840 when we combined a whole lot of different projects, A 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.640 whole lot of different programs, and it was that combination 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.599 that allowed us to kind of unstick the system and 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.479 now make some real progress. So let's talk about racial 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.560 related issues. The Black Lives Matter issue has brought racial 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.360 inequality to the forefront. How has your company tried to 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:10.960 address this by being more inclusive or dealing with the 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.479 problems that often people who are African American might have 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.360 in our society, not only the company, but but stand 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:23.640 together in our views on this is is we welcome 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:28.880 this conversation about that about racial in qualities and what 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.440 I look at the situation today, it's a case of 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.040 the sins of the fathers being visited on the suns 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.520 for seven generations. I mean, you look at at what 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:45.840 what this country practice. I mean slavery reconstruction with horrors, 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:51.640 uh separate, not but equal, separate but unequal. And so today, 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:57.080 whether there's racism in it or not, we have institutional 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:03.440 bias that is holding Black Americans back. And so that's 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.880 why we're working on criminal justice reform, on changing the 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:13.679 educational system, changing regulations such as occupational licensure, which keeps 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.600 people who start with nothing from competing, and so on 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:22.080 through through the through all the institutions in society. We're 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:27.719 working to change those to bring that into UH, into 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.240 true system of equal rights and mutual benefit. Now, the 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.120 truth is most people in the world do not know 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.400 Charles Coke for being a gigantic philanthropist. They know you 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:41.200 for running this gigantic privately owned company. So I'd like 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.240 to talk a little bit about how that came about. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.560 So you grew up in You were born in Kansas, 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.920 which which dot Kansas? Yes, you grew up there. Your 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.560 father was a person who didn't say, you know, I'm 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.240 gonna pamper you and I want you to have a nice, 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.920 spoiled life. He made you work pretty hard. Is that right? Oh, 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.159 my god, is that true. No. He he announced to 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.000 me early that he didn't want me to be a 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.279 country club bum. He wanted me to amount to something. 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.640 So he had me work at in all my spare time, 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.520 starting at age six. This is hard to believe, but 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.360 but we have photographs of me doing it. So you 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.960 ultimately went off to um m I T a pretty 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:23.600 good school. What did you want to be when you 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.320 went down my T? I had no idea. Well, I 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.000 knew the reason I went to M I t is 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.000 the language was math rather than English, and I was 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.040 so much better at math than English that I thought 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.480 I'd have a better chance of succeeding there. And so 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:44.160 so I started taking different courses, and I took so 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:48.600 many different ones, trying to find something I was good at, 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.760 how I could apply this gift to help me contribute 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:57.120 and succeed and uh, and I took so many that 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.640 I couldn't get a degree in any specific subjects. So 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.960 I got it in general engineering, and then I said, well, 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:08.560 I need I need something more specific. So I thought 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.960 nuclear was the wave of the future and I would 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.560 have entrepreneurial opportunities in the future from that. When I 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.080 got in it got my degree, my master's degree in 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.840 nuclear engineering, I learned that no IT people are really 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.240 worried about safety, so it's going to be so controlled 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.520 and regulated. I don't I won't have those opportunities. So 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.480 I went back and got a master's in chemical engineering. Okay, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.320 so the last thing you wanted to do was to 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.160 go back to Kansas and work for your father, I assumed, 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.480 since he was a little bit of a hard task master. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:43.839 So you went to work for Arthur D. Little, which 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.480 is a consulting firm in the Boston area. Is that right? Right? 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.640 I got in management consulting, and I got to consult 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:56.240 on things that were abstractions, like strategies and innovation, and 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.280 I said, wow, this is this is it. I need 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.800 to be an unch pin and and and so there 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:04.920 are a lot of companies coming out of m I 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.320 t from professors and students I knew. I said, well, 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.360 I'm gonna I want to join one of these startups 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:17.559 and invest some and and start a career as an entrepreneur. Okay, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.920 So how did your father lure you back from the 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.800 Boston area to Kansas to work for him, which you 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.120 didn't think was probably gonna be that much fun? Well, 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.320 I told the first time he asked me, I said, 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.080 I said, pop, no, I got, I got my career 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.840 ideas and I want to be independent. And and so 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.880 he called me back and he said, son, uh, as 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.840 you know, my health is poor. It's so poor that 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.880 I'm not really able to lead the company anymore. And 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.400 it's not doing well, and I don't have long to live. 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.560 So either you come back to run it, or I'll 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.360 sell it and I'll let you run this business that 0:09:55.360 --> 0:10:00.920 that you already own an interest in that makes fractionating trades. Uh, 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.000 any way you want to start with, and the only 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.280 thing you need my approval on is to sell it. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.880 And I said, well, I don't wow. I said to myself, 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:12.000 I don't think I'm going to get a better opportunity 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.880 than this. So I came back and he was absolutely 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.200 true to his word. He totally turned it over to 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.640 me and then got me and the other businesses, and 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:27.160 I was able to contribute from the beginning, but I 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:31.800 still didn't feel whole. So everybody who's watching this will 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.000 want to know, how do you take a twelve million 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.360 revenue company to roughly a hundred and twenty billion revenue 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:41.839 company withoutgoing public? What is the key secret to doing that? Well, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.920 the secret was that that I was, as I said, 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.920 I didn't feel I was fully using my capabilities. It's 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:54.640 what what Maslow said, if if you're not fully developing 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:59.480 your capacities and realizing your potential, you may be externally 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.040 success full, but you will be deeply unhappy because you 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.200 won't be fulfilling your nature. As he said, what you 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.440 can be, you must be. And I hadn't read Maslow then, 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.520 but that caused me to read Maslow and to search 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:19.240 for these principles of human progress. So I read everything 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:23.240 I could from all different all relevant disciplines, all different 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:28.240 perspectives to find principles that I could use and apply 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.719 in the business and my life to enable me to 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.280 believe in myself. And and I started apply them in 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:41.760 business and they worked. They weren't beyond my belief and 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:46.880 beyond anything I hoped for, and that absolutely transformed my life. 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.959 And so my whole life has been looking for principles 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:55.760 that enabled me to contribute or improve the principles were 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:00.640 implying and better apply them. And and so every day 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.240 is like I'm reborn, okay, And you've said, over your 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.719 dead body, with this company ever go public? Is that right? 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.319 I didn't mean that literally, but every you're not intending 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.760 to take in public? Right? No? Absolutely, no, it's uh. 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.120 I don't We couldn't have done what we did if 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.080 we were public. I don't believe. Um. I don't know 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.760 your company really that well. It seems to be in 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.040 the oil and refining businesses, but things like that, a 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.000 lot of technical things. But one of the companies you bought, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.800 the biggest acquisition you ever made, was Georgia Pacific. And 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:35.840 when I read that in the newspapers, I said, what 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.959 are they buying a forestry company for? And it seems 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.240 I've worked out extremely well from reading the newspapers. Um, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.920 what was your thinking about Georgia Pacific? I was just 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.199 curious as a business matter, Well, are what drives us? 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:55.079 And what's made successful is we started UH by understanding 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:59.520 and applying UH the principles of human progress, and then 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.880 we we we took those and codified them into a 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.680 management framework that we call market based management, and that's 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:12.200 has five dimensions, and then we use that to create 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.040 virtuous cycles of mutual benefit, which, as I say, starts 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:21.000 with building capabilities that will all enable us to create 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:26.000 value for others. So we've never considered ourselves as industry bound. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.040 We consider ourselves capability bound. So we're constantly trying to 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.280 build new capabilities that will open new opportunities. And then 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.760 when we get UH getting a new opportunity, then that 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:46.080 leads to us building new capabilities, which leads to new opportunities. 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:49.240 And that's why we're all these things. And the only 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:56.319 place where we're in producing UH fossil fuels is in refining. 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.200 We're out of all the others. And that's now just 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.480 a fraction of our total business, whereas a decade ago 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.839 it was like half. Now you point out in your 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.440 book that you're a large producer of ethanol, refiner of 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.280 ethanol which were used as corn and and so forth, 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.200 but that you're against the subsidies the federal government is 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.120 giving to ethanol. Now doesn't that cause you some problems 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.120 in your business world when you're against the subsidies but 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.720 you're actually doing a lot of the ethanol production. We 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:30.440 oppose all subsidies, all all restrictions on competition, innovation, or 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:36.320 are providing opportunities to people who start with nothing we're 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:42.120 we oppose all those and and and it's not just ethanol, 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.880 Like we opposed the border adjustment tax, although that would 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.920 make us a lot of money by raising the price 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:58.640 of our consumer goods for our customers. And because we believe, 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.640 I mean it's not outruistic. It's because we believe we 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.760 succeed by creating value for others. I mean, we want 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:12.120 to be the preferred partners of all our constituencies, everybody 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.160 in every group that's important to us. And the way 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:19.040 you do it is by creating value for them applying 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.800 mutual benefit. So, Charles, Um, you are a teenager by 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.680 the standards of some people who are running companies. Warren Buffett, 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.520 I think it's just celebrate his ninetieth birthday. So you're, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.080 you know, five years younger than him, and so I 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.080 assume you could keep doing this for quite a while. 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:36.760 Do you have any plans to make certain that the 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.320 company will be can continued to run by a family? 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.800 Your father started the company, You've been running it for 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.560 a long time. Uh, your family have any interest in 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:47.800 running it or you're gonna eventually turn it over to 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.560 a professional managers. We have multiple people who could lead it, 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.600 and but I won't be the one deciding that it 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.760 will be the board of directors. And my son wouldn't 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.200 want it unless he felt that he was the best 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.360 one who could make the most company most successful in 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.840 in in continuing to apply these ideas to create value 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.400 in society. So a number of years ago, Um, you 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.040 decided to get involved a little bit more than you 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.760 had been in politics by supporting candidates or so forth, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.520 And as a result of that, your image became very 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.960 much let's say right wing and let's say anti democratic 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.560 in some respects. Some people might say, how are you 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.000 now trying to change what you did a number of 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.840 years ago getting involved in in political causes or so forth. 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:41.600 Well I was. I started in this work uh nearly 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.320 sixty years ago, and for the first fifty I wasn't 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:49.160 involved in politics at all. And then we we decided 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:54.880 we needed to get policies as well as these has 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:59.600 worked with these other institutions, uh that will empower people, 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.120 that will move as closer to a system of equal 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.880 rights and mutual benefit. And so we got into it, 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.399 uh by some uh in a partisan way in in 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.399 two thousand and ten. That was the first election we 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.399 we got in and so we tried that for a 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:23.040 few years and it wasn't that successful and it was 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.280 many ways counterproductive. So now are our work in in 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:33.199 politics is is on a nonpartisan basin. We're looking for 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:38.720 champions who will who will advocate for policies that will 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:45.400 empower people rather than get try to get power over them, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.680 which stifles people. The thing about it is, and as 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.200 we go into in the book, you know, at any 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.120 given time, politics has never been more than ten percent 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.240 of all of the efforts that we've been involved with. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.919 But has taken an outside uh view in terms of 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.600 people's understanding of our work. When when we did get 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.320 involved in politics, we learned quickly that partnership works a 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.120 whole lot better than partisanship. And so, as Charles says, 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.440 that's the approach we're taking now in public policy and politics. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.000 Not doesn't matter if you're a Republican or a Democrat. 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.159 If you've got a vision for policy that can improve 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.480 people's lives, we want to partner with you. And we 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.080 found that that works really, really well, even under some 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.000 pretty challenging circumstances. Obviously, most people like to be liked 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.400 by other people. I think that's the case. And so 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.760 for a while when you were involved in politics, you 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.119 were the ogre for some people on the deft Democratic 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.640 Party side of the left side. Did that bother you? 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.880 And are you trying in any way to change the 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.600 image that you got or you basically saying I'm doing 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.000 what I'm gonna do and I don't care about the 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.959 image so much. Well, I mean, we need to we 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.560 need to attract support, so we want that. But as 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.480 I've said, my main driver through my life is to 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.720 believe in myself, and so I have to do what 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:05.679 I think is right. What what will allow me to 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.040 to fully develop my capabilities and use them to contribute. 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.640 And so that's what I do. And but I when 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:18.520 we have criticisms, and I to me, that's Carl Popper's 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:24.120 uh scientific method. Develop a proposition or innovation and then 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.919 not go around and find things to support it, but 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.720 find challenges to it, encourage challenges to it, to find 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.000 the flaws in it. So when when when we're criticized 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.679 and attack, we look at, Okay, what are we doing wrong? 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.480 And then part of what we saw, well, we're approaching 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.000 this in a partisan way. That's wrong. We've got to 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:50.040 approach this in a in a nonpartisan way. So Charles, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.359 let me ask you. Um, I noticed from politics, reading 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.439 the pet papers that you were not involved in a 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.359 Republican campaign for president. But President Trump you were not 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:01.800 in involved with his campaign as far as I can see, 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.800 and so forth, and um, so you you know you've 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.120 distanced yourself from that Republican president supposed to new were 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:12.440 president elect, uh Joe Biden were to call you and say, look, 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.399 I'd like to hear your views. I want to buy partisanship, 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:17.200 what would you tell him he should do and would 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:19.879 you be willing to consult with him? Oh? Absolutely, and 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.520 we hope to find ways and and we were we 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.479 believe there are number of ways that uh, that we 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.760 can find common ground on. Uh. And that what I 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.200 would say, Okay, let's uh, we can help you when 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.760 when you're pushing policies that that show you believe in people, 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.639 that you want to empower people so so they so 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:51.320 they can contribute and succeed and and and when you're 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.760 when you have policies that we believe will stifle people 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:59.040 and and keep them from realizing their potential, then we'll 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.760 oppose that. And that's what we've done with with every president. 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.439 But I've I've never I don't think I've never talked 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:12.760 to or met a president elect or a president. I 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.720 have met him before and after they were presidents, but 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.760 never when they were So that's not what I get 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.320 engaged in. Given your wealth, given your prominence, I would 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.919 have thought by now some presidents would have invited to 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.359 a state dinner or asked you to come and advise them. 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.639 So you know, Ronald Reagan or George Herbert Walker Bush 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:33.960 or George W. Bush, they never invited to the White 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:35.879 House for a state dinner and or you didn't want 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.919 to go, or you just don't have been invited. But 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:44.080 I've asked the question, not duringly with the President, of course, 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.800 but I've asked the question, well, what is it. Are 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.960 we gonna talk about substance? Or is this just meeting 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:54.520 and greet and and show? And it was it's for show, 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.680 And I said, well, I'm not interested in show. I'm 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.840 interested in getting something done. So I have not gone 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.960 to any of them. I don't think I've ever been 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.520 in the White House in fact, So you have any 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.919 interest of President Biden invited you just to come and 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:09.520 take a tour of the White House. You wouldn't want 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:11.639 he interested in that just to see what it looks like. No, 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.960 I would. If he wants to talk about how to 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.119 empower people, boy, I would be there in a nanosecond. 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:20.640 If you had a chance to talk again to your 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.159 father and say, look what I did. What do you 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.199 think he would say to you? Was he proud of 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.000 what you did? You want him to be proud? Would 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:29.800 you want to be proud of what you did? I 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.400 think he would be blown away, just as I am. 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.000 I mean, I I can't believe it that we've done 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:40.040 and I haven't done him What's what's accomplished this or 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:45.000 these ideas? Are these principles? So I just I happened 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:48.640 to learn them and be turned on by him, and 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:53.480 and then they applying them and everything we do and 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.560 and then the people do it. That's the key. No 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:59.600 one person can do all this. You do it by 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:04.720 powering people, empowering your employees, and empowering people through society 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.639 so they can contribute, they can innovate. So if somebody 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.359 is watching this and they say, our Charles Coke as 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.199 a leader in philanthropy, he's a leader in business and 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.720 so forth, I would like to be like Charles Coke? 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:18.760 What is it the meaning of leadership? You? How do 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.720 you become a leader? A true leader is someone who 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.960 makes the people around him better, around her better, and 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.920 so so what you have to do is find what 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:35.719 you're good at, what your gift is, and focus on 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.720 that and then partners partner with those who with him 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:44.239 you share vision and values and have complementary capabilities. And 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.919 that's what I've done. So I have a narrow range 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:52.359 of abilities, and I've where I've succeeded is when I 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.640 partnered with people who were good at all the other 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.040 things that needed to be done that I wasn't good at, 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:01.960 and I focused on that and then and then to 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.720 draw on their knowledge and empower the people around you, 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.680 so you get the benefit of everybody's knowledge and ability. 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:13.479 That's what a leader does, and you focus on not 0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:16.920 what is good for you, but good for the overall 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.960