Speaker 1: I'm Manny and this is Devin, and this is no
Speaker 1: such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments
Speaker 1: in yours by actually doing the research. Today we're talking
Speaker 1: about sex ad birth control in the case for pulling out.
Speaker 2: I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,
Speaker 2: but nobody wants to talk about it.
Speaker 3: There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such.
Speaker 1: Thank thank all Right, fellas, this is gonna be an
Speaker 1: interesting one. Uh scared. We we as a friend group,
Speaker 1: do not do a lot of locker room talk like
Speaker 1: our like our president. So we'll try to keep this
Speaker 1: a little PG. Thirteen. Yes, if you're listening with young children,
Speaker 1: I'm glad they're a fan of the show. But maybe
Speaker 1: they should skip this episode.
Speaker 3: Or maybe they should keep listen where they.
Speaker 1: Can listen to it. And then at the end we'll
Speaker 1: they actually should have skipped it.
Speaker 3: It's too late now, so.
Speaker 1: Let's start the conversation here. Have either of you had
Speaker 1: the talk? No, no, this is crazy, not from parents,
Speaker 1: So neither of you had the talk with your parents. No, no,
Speaker 1: didn't come up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't worry about this ship. Yeah, your parents were like,
Speaker 3: you're not gonna have to worry.
Speaker 1: I did have the conversation with my dad. I had
Speaker 1: to be I was young. I had to be like ten,
Speaker 1: nine or ten. It was you know, it was a
Speaker 1: very top level conversation. Did so growing up? What was
Speaker 1: the conversation around like birth control contraceptive did you guys?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Was it just through school?
Speaker 2: Dude?
Speaker 1: Your parents weren't like, hey, make sure you stay safe? Yeah?
Speaker 3: It was mostly through school, and we we were in
Speaker 3: one in a neighborhood that school, like public school systems
Speaker 3: were like, we really got to beat it out of
Speaker 3: these kids specifically, so we had that kind of sex
Speaker 3: said that was like everyone, get a ring. You are
Speaker 3: now a little bit. It was all like abstinence. They
Speaker 3: sent us home with the baby dolls that yeah.
Speaker 1: You know they do that on Love Island.
Speaker 3: Come on Beautiful Baby Boy, Cry maybe you and they're
Speaker 3: like twenty something and that show. Yeah, yeah, I was,
Speaker 3: I must have been thirteen or something.
Speaker 1: How was that experience for you?
Speaker 3: I remember it, like, you know, I don't think it
Speaker 3: works as nearly as well as the programs think it does,
Speaker 3: because you know, it's not real. It's a fake doll.
Speaker 3: I like hit it under some pillows and like cover
Speaker 3: so I didn't hear it crying. It really was like,
Speaker 3: I know, mean girls has a scene like this, but
Speaker 3: then they're parioding the kind of sex at that I got,
Speaker 3: which is like, if you even touch someone, you're gonna die.
Speaker 4: I guess we'll never know what I missed on that
Speaker 4: first day of health class.
Speaker 1: Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die.
Speaker 3: And uh yeah, it was not very effective because in
Speaker 3: my seventh grade uh school trip to d c to
Speaker 3: the kids were going off in the back of the
Speaker 3: bus on the bus and she got pregnant. Wait they
Speaker 3: were wait going off Okay, but anyway, like that was
Speaker 3: one of the schools I think where they went hard
Speaker 3: on like sex heads.
Speaker 1: Because they were about teenage pregnancies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it just kind of backfires, I think.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it was all abstinence based though
Speaker 1: there wasn't any talk about.
Speaker 3: It wasn't like if you're gonna have sex, do this
Speaker 3: and this and this. It was all like, don't even
Speaker 3: touch each other.
Speaker 1: Look at it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, I really I remember doing like health class.
Speaker 5: I really don't remember any sex said except for like
Speaker 5: we watched a baby being born video.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like I don't.
Speaker 5: I really don't remember anything. It certainly wasn't like abstinence education.
Speaker 5: I don't remember anything about like like you see in
Speaker 5: movies or whatever, like they're putting a condom on a banana.
Speaker 1: Abstinence wasn't something that stressed. I don't remember. In school,
Speaker 1: sex head was very sort of like anatomy based. A
Speaker 1: lot of the conversation was around anatomy, right, So it
Speaker 1: wasn't really like real world here's what's gonna happen, here's
Speaker 1: what you should do, but it was like a big
Speaker 1: fear of like pregnancy, like you know, both in school
Speaker 1: and outside of school, was just like, yeah, you're too
Speaker 1: young to be having sex, but if you are going
Speaker 1: to be having sex, make sure you're using protection.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you not want it's too pronged. Yes, you
Speaker 3: shouldn't do it, but if you are, yes, here's what
Speaker 3: you should be doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I kind of what I remember is more just learning
Speaker 5: about how someone becomes pregnant, like as far as like
Speaker 5: looking at diagrams and like parts, more than like like
Speaker 5: reproductive yeah more yeah, just like more reproductive health than
Speaker 5: like education on like how to, yeah, how to do
Speaker 5: how to or how not to.
Speaker 1: As we hear from Manny he had friends at a
Speaker 1: young age that were sexually active. What was the sentiment
Speaker 1: amongst your friends when you were kids around sex and protection, Like,
Speaker 1: were people talking about using condoms, already talking about not
Speaker 1: using condoms, already talking about other methods of birth control? Like,
Speaker 1: for example, I remember in high school the kids who
Speaker 1: were in sort of like long term relationships talking about
Speaker 1: how their girlfriends were on the pale so they did
Speaker 1: not use condoms.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember, I remember stuff like that. I don't
Speaker 5: remember much like anti condom sentiment. I think there wasn't
Speaker 5: enough in my circles going on for it to be
Speaker 5: like cool to not like it's like all right, if
Speaker 5: you're going to do it, then you'd use this and
Speaker 5: that's that's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think there were I remember certainly, you know a
Speaker 3: few people who like wanted to seem cool or whatever
Speaker 3: edge you're talking about how, oh my god, it's way
Speaker 3: better without a.
Speaker 1: Condom or whatever.
Speaker 3: That went on throughout high school, yeah, and even college.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this brings us to the topic that we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about for today's episode, the pullout method.
Speaker 1: Do you remember anything specifically about the pullout method? As
Speaker 1: a kid, I guess I'll start. I remember hearing as
Speaker 1: a kid, don't do that. It's bad. Yeah. Yeah, pull
Speaker 1: out method is is not safe. Even before you finish.
Speaker 1: There may be some things that come out that could
Speaker 1: think perhaps pre yes, it just.
Speaker 5: Takes one second, just takes one second.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also like, hey, you don't know when
Speaker 1: it's gonna happen, do you don't have It was a
Speaker 1: lot of like, you can't trust yourself to do this. Yep,
Speaker 1: don't put yourself in a situation where you have to
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Essentially, I remember in part of the abstinence program that
Speaker 3: they had us do uh talking about how pulling out
Speaker 3: is not going like you think you're safe, but you're not.
Speaker 3: So don't think that this is a you know, a
Speaker 3: way you can get out of it. Get around them.
Speaker 3: You're still gonna have a baby that's gonna be crying
Speaker 3: all night and your parents won't help you.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you're gonna have to drop out of school.
Speaker 1: Your life is gonna be ruined. You're not gonna go
Speaker 1: to college, not to be successful, You're gonna be poor.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and I and I remember them saying it.
Speaker 3: But also I was believing it too. Yeah, sense I
Speaker 3: was like, damn, yeah, okay, there's some science here that
Speaker 3: I don't understand.
Speaker 1: Sounds right to me, or I might argue, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be the one.
Speaker 5: Exactly, I'm not righting the research lab on this.
Speaker 1: No, what if I told you that the pull out method,
Speaker 1: according to this article, is as effective as male condoms
Speaker 1: when used correctly.
Speaker 3: As effective. I'm very surprised to hear that. I'd I'd
Speaker 3: be scared i'd be able to tell you that.
Speaker 1: Let me be accurate. The article says about as effective.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, about as effective. That surprises me. I could
Speaker 3: you know, I can tell you that it is effective
Speaker 3: and based on experience, but I would never argue that
Speaker 3: it's about as effective as I always thought. You know,
Speaker 3: there's a pretty big risk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I.
Speaker 5: I'm curious to hear it out. Am I gonna personally
Speaker 5: recommend this to someone asking me for, you know, sex advice,
Speaker 5: which happens often.
Speaker 1: Not not at.
Speaker 3: This point, but let's hear him out.
Speaker 1: So we'll be sitting down with the author of this
Speaker 1: Slate article, the Case for pulling Out, Andrea Becker. That's
Speaker 1: after the break Hey, do you have a conspiracy theory
Speaker 1: that no one in your life can convince you is fake? Well,
Speaker 1: send us a voice memo at Manny Noah Devin at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com and we may feature you in our
Speaker 1: upcoming episode. And by the way, we'll just do this
Speaker 1: now so we don't have to do it again in
Speaker 1: the credits. But if you're a fan of this show,
Speaker 1: go right now. It's it's a break, so you have
Speaker 1: time rid us five stars and share it with a
Speaker 1: front All right, back to the show. Okay, we're back.
Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah Devin. And in the studio today
Speaker 1: we have Professor Andrea Becker. She is a sexual reproductive
Speaker 1: health researcher. She's a professor and most importantly, a friend
Speaker 1: of the pod.
Speaker 4: True.
Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome, it's great to have you.
Speaker 4: Great to be here.
Speaker 3: And thanks for pretending that this is a studio, not
Speaker 3: my living.
Speaker 4: It's a studio to me. These lights, studio lights, it's
Speaker 4: right lights.
Speaker 1: And you have a.
Speaker 2: Book coming out, and I have a book coming out.
Speaker 2: It's called Get It Out on the Politics of Hysterectomy.
Speaker 2: It's out in July, but available for pre order now.
Speaker 1: So Professor last year for Slate, you wrote an article
Speaker 1: titled the Case for pulling Out. First of all, do
Speaker 1: you stand by that absolutely? You know, just wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure. So what was you know, the inception of
Speaker 1: this article. What was the first time you thought about
Speaker 1: pulling out.
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about pulling out since I was in
Speaker 2: high school, I guess. Academically, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, academically awesome.
Speaker 2: So I was in an honors anatomy class, and I
Speaker 2: guess our teacher was a pretty radical guy, and he
Speaker 2: told us about the female reproductive cycle and how there's
Speaker 2: only three to five days where you can actually get pregnant.
Speaker 2: And I didn't know that, especially compared to the abstinence
Speaker 2: only sex education that I had had. This was in
Speaker 2: North Carolina. They basically say, don't have sex, and we
Speaker 2: won't explain anything further. Our teacher also implied that if
Speaker 2: you are even naked in the same room, you could
Speaker 2: get pregnant, and she didn't elaborate further, so I didn't
Speaker 2: know what she meant for many years.
Speaker 3: I got like vibes based intercourse.
Speaker 4: No clue.
Speaker 2: Still, I wish I remembered her name so I could
Speaker 2: ask her. But yeah, so figuring out that there's only
Speaker 2: five days out of the month where you can feasibly
Speaker 2: get pregnant, and he said that he himself and his
Speaker 2: wife had relied on pulling out and that it worked.
Speaker 1: Did he use that phrase specifically?
Speaker 4: I believe so, though I will.
Speaker 2: Say that in the research it's referred to as the
Speaker 2: withdrawal method or my favorite coitus interruptis is hoitus interrupted?
Speaker 1: That sounds like I'm like a kid made up.
Speaker 3: That's Harry Potters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JK. Rowling came out with that one.
Speaker 1: So you were told this in high school and then
Speaker 1: it was sort of on your mind and you wrote
Speaker 1: this article. So you've been thinking about it this entire time?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: Or did this something recently happen that you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I'm remembering my high school teacher talking about
Speaker 1: pulling out.
Speaker 2: No. Nothing, well, I guess getting into the space of
Speaker 2: sexual and reproductive health researchers, I noticed that there was
Speaker 2: a big divide among researchers and providers about withdrawal. So
Speaker 2: some are very adamant that it's part of like sexual
Speaker 2: and general autonomy, that you should be able to learn
Speaker 2: about this method, that you should be taught the right ways.
Speaker 2: And then there are a lot of providers and researchers
Speaker 2: who say that it's not a form of birth control,
Speaker 2: that it's really irresponsible to even talk about it. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of really stigmatizing language around it.
Speaker 4: So some people still.
Speaker 2: Call it the pull and prey method, as if you
Speaker 2: need to use it in conjunction with religious practice, that
Speaker 2: God needs to intervene in order for it to.
Speaker 1: Work, okay, because it's so unreliable.
Speaker 2: Most recently, someone that I really admire, a professor, said
Speaker 2: something like, oh, you know what we call people who
Speaker 2: pull out parents m So even researchers.
Speaker 3: With this is I hate to say, but that's a
Speaker 3: bar It is a bar line. They're wrong, but it's
Speaker 3: a great line.
Speaker 1: So okay, that's the like you're saying, that's researchers. What
Speaker 1: has been the vibe with just like your friends and associates?
Speaker 1: Is that a simil Because we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 1: I think it's a similar sentiment of just like pulling
Speaker 1: out like worst case scenario, but like that's not plan A.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,
Speaker 2: but nobody wants to talk about it. And so even
Speaker 2: within researchers. Interestingly, so the there is a reproductive health
Speaker 2: conference that I go to every year. It's like a
Speaker 2: really large conference, and one of the researchers who attends
Speaker 2: every year did a survey with the various members. I
Speaker 2: think she surveyed over three hundred people about the various
Speaker 2: contraceptive methods that they use, and around seventy six percent
Speaker 2: said they relied on withdrawal.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Why so it's the same people counseling patients to not
Speaker 2: use it and writing papers about how everyone needs to
Speaker 2: be on the IUD they're they're pulling out. Around sixty
Speaker 2: five to sixty six percent of the population rely on withdrawal,
Speaker 2: and this is about equal among young people in adolescents
Speaker 2: as well. But a lot of people use in conjunction
Speaker 2: to other methods, So they're using withdrawal and also using
Speaker 2: condoms or using withdrawal and birth control. So there's responsible
Speaker 2: ways to use it, and it doesn't mean you're it's
Speaker 2: your only method necessarily, So that's okay.
Speaker 1: That makes that number make a little bit more sense
Speaker 1: to me. How much So sixty five percent of people
Speaker 1: are saying they just use withdrawal period but some combination
Speaker 1: OLiS people are using withdrawal and combination with maybe birth
Speaker 1: control or condoms.
Speaker 2: But in terms of your primary form of birth control,
Speaker 2: the latest data from twenty twenty three, so two thirds
Speaker 2: of women have at least at some point relied on
Speaker 2: withdrawal as their primary form of birth control.
Speaker 3: So we now know how many people rely on pulling out,
Speaker 3: but I want to know how effective it actually is.
Speaker 2: Okay, So in a large national study, eighteen percent of
Speaker 2: couples who solely rely on withdrawal will have an unplanned pregnancy.
Speaker 1: That's anonomy. So what we're talking about.
Speaker 4: The condoms is seventeen percent.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, correctly.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this anymore. So these numbers that Dray
Speaker 1: is referencing actually come from a two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: paper published in the journal Contraception. The researchers looked at
Speaker 1: a bunch of studies and found that with typical use,
Speaker 1: so you know, not getting it perfectly right every single time,
Speaker 1: eighteen percent of couples who rely on a pull out
Speaker 1: method could expect to get pregnant within a year. With
Speaker 1: typical use, seventeen percent of couples who rely on condoms
Speaker 1: can expect to get pregnant within a year, and if
Speaker 1: you're using these methods perfectly. So let's say with the
Speaker 1: pull out method, the person with a penis pulls out
Speaker 1: every single time for ejaculating. Only four percent of couples
Speaker 1: relying on a withdrawal method can expect a pregnancy within
Speaker 1: a year, and with perfect condom use only two percent
Speaker 1: of couples can expect a pregnancy within a year.
Speaker 3: What is perfect? U?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, what does that look like? Because I think
Speaker 1: we all have an idea in our mind, right, but
Speaker 1: you were talking about even days that you can get pregnant.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if this is my primary form of a contraception,
Speaker 1: what am I doing?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: So there definitely needs to see some communication between partners
Speaker 2: and so generally the semen should come nowhere near the
Speaker 2: person's vagina, and then if there are multiple rounds of
Speaker 2: sex happening, the person needs to urinate in between because
Speaker 2: the person with the penis.
Speaker 4: Good question.
Speaker 1: I think everybody, probably.
Speaker 4: Everyone should be after sex.
Speaker 1: As I'm learning from you know, Hannah Horror asks and girls,
Speaker 1: it is important to pe after sex.
Speaker 4: It is you can get a U t I if
Speaker 4: you don't did yes.
Speaker 1: And with men Hannah Horror from Girls.
Speaker 3: Made putting the show called Girl Girls.
Speaker 1: A couple of seasons.
Speaker 2: But so after ejaculating, sperm can live in the urethra,
Speaker 2: and so urinating can will kill those spurs, like flush
Speaker 2: it out.
Speaker 1: And push out, So you're gonna clean up eviction p
Speaker 1: if you're doing multiple rounds both for UTIs and pregnancy purposes.
Speaker 1: Everybody just go pee?
Speaker 4: Yes, everybody just go pee?
Speaker 1: Is really good. And then is there a window where
Speaker 1: you should be doing this?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: You're talking about there's like three or four days where
Speaker 1: a woman there's the only window that a woman can
Speaker 1: get pregnant. And now that I think about it, I
Speaker 1: did know that because when people are trying to get pregnant,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'm in my window. We gotta go.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because women and men tend to only learn
Speaker 2: about this window when they're trying to get pregnant. We
Speaker 2: don't teach people this when they're trying to not get pregnant.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2: So around two weeks after your period, so right in
Speaker 2: the middle of your cycle, you ovulate, and so generally
Speaker 2: five days before ovulation and the day after you shouldn't
Speaker 2: have unprotected sex. With the idea that maybe there's sperm
Speaker 2: in the person's pre com.
Speaker 1: Yes, this is one of the primary reasons why I
Speaker 1: have historically been told to not due to pull out method. Right,
Speaker 1: it's like whatever, you think, you got it under control,
Speaker 1: but you may pre come. Yeah, can a woman actually
Speaker 1: get pregnant from pre com?
Speaker 4: Really good question.
Speaker 2: So pre com doesn't necessarily have sperm in it, okay,
Speaker 2: but some people maybe have a little bit of sperm
Speaker 2: in their pre com. So semen is the general fluid
Speaker 2: that comes out during ejaculation, okay, and sperm is the
Speaker 2: sex cells within there.
Speaker 4: The likelihood is lower, but it only takes.
Speaker 2: One sperm okay. And of course there's really limited research
Speaker 2: on this. There's a few studies on it, some of
Speaker 2: them they're typically really small numbers of men that they sample.
Speaker 2: But we need a huge national longitude survey of pre come.
Speaker 4: If I was the.
Speaker 2: One, if I was setting the agenda for research, I
Speaker 2: would be doing that.
Speaker 3: So I guess what is your kind of response to
Speaker 3: our middle school teachers who are like, pre come will
Speaker 3: do it. I hear you're not necessarily disagreeing with that,
Speaker 3: But in terms of pulling out as a contraceptive method.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I understand why public health professionals and
Speaker 2: sex and teachers don't want young teenagers to know about
Speaker 2: withdrawal as a legitimate form of contraception, because if it
Speaker 2: has even higher rates of failure, that's you know, however,
Speaker 2: many kids that are getting pregnant they don't want to,
Speaker 2: and so on like a national scale, that's a lot
Speaker 2: of people getting pregnant when they don't want to. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but if you teach people or the proper technique, the
Speaker 2: right knowledge about their cycle, so yessch pre com can
Speaker 2: get you pregnant, but not if you're not ovulating. So
Speaker 2: if you're ovulating, we're a condom.
Speaker 3: So basically they're saying they're wanting to be basically misleading
Speaker 3: for our better good. But you're saying, actually, the best
Speaker 3: way to do that is be as transparent as possible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, knowledge is power.
Speaker 2: There's also just like a mistrust that people will use
Speaker 2: birth control methods correctly at all. So there's this huge
Speaker 2: bias within sex, said within medical practitioners where they want
Speaker 2: patients to use the.
Speaker 4: Most effective methods.
Speaker 2: So they want people to use IUDs because there's very
Speaker 2: little room for user error. The doctor places the device
Speaker 2: and then that's it. So with a pill, you can
Speaker 2: forget to take it, you can take at the wrong time.
Speaker 2: With withdrawal, you can accidentally not pull out or do
Speaker 2: it the wrong time of the month. And so there's
Speaker 2: this huge bias towards just pushing these really high, highly
Speaker 2: effective methods even if patients don't want to use it.
Speaker 1: But I feel like to that point, condoms, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of room for error there, and that's always the
Speaker 1: like even more than you know, I feel like IDs
Speaker 1: are more recently and I feel like even when people
Speaker 1: are a bit older, but early on, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's just like condoms, condoms, condoms, condoms like the only
Speaker 1: form of birth control. Obviously they talk about women being
Speaker 1: on the pail, but even still, it's like women on
Speaker 1: the pail plus condoms, Right, Like, why is condoms always
Speaker 1: the thing that's being talked about as like so effective.
Speaker 2: Well, that's because condoms is the only thing that will
Speaker 2: prevent STI transmission. And so that's some pushback I get
Speaker 2: about withdrawal that if we say that withdrawal is an
Speaker 2: acceptable form of contraception, then STI rates will increase. But
Speaker 2: other than condoms, no other birth control prevents SDI transmission.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we talked a little bit earlier too about
Speaker 1: how we had different experiences in school about education. You know,
Speaker 1: many grew up in Ohio, know, in Connecticut, me in
Speaker 1: New Jersey. What is like sort of like the state
Speaker 1: of sex education in the US, because we all learned
Speaker 1: different things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so across the country, there's a really wide range
Speaker 2: of what is mandated by the state. There's no federal guidelines,
Speaker 2: so in some there has to be sex education, and
Speaker 2: others there is no mandate on that, and some it
Speaker 2: has to be medically accurate, and some they have to
Speaker 2: teach about consent or LGBTQ sex.
Speaker 4: But so it really varies across which state you're in.
Speaker 1: It is crazy conversations in school about consent, at least
Speaker 1: until you get to college, then they talk a lot
Speaker 1: about consent. But in high school there was very little
Speaker 1: to no conversations about consent. Consent. I get maybe it's
Speaker 1: more of a thing now, but I feel like consent
Speaker 1: was not a conversation even amongst friends or like family members,
Speaker 1: like yeah, well, pleasure. I guess part of the issue is,
Speaker 1: like I feel like so much of the conversations around
Speaker 1: sex are about not getting pregnant. And it's not about pleasure.
Speaker 1: It's not about like you know, like pleasuring your partner.
Speaker 1: It's all about don't get pregnant, try not to do it.
Speaker 1: If you are going to do it, try to be
Speaker 1: safe about it. And like there's yeah, none of these
Speaker 1: other aspects of it. You just sort of like figure
Speaker 1: it out.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that isn't changed with so in research.
Speaker 2: Also, the way that demographers and public health researchers talk
Speaker 2: about birth control, you'd think that people have sex to
Speaker 2: test the effectiveness of different birth control. Like it's almost
Speaker 2: radical to talk about pleasure as part of.
Speaker 1: Birth Yeah, like does this feel good? Yeah, because I'm
Speaker 1: not going to use it if it doesn't feel good,
Speaker 1: because that's why I'm having sex.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, Jenny Higgins in Wisconsin is one of the only
Speaker 2: researchers I know who is asking people about sexual pleasure
Speaker 2: and what birth control they use.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So let me ask you this because you know,
Speaker 1: I know you wrote this last year. I would say
Speaker 1: within the last couple of years, there's been a lot
Speaker 1: of backlash to the pill. You know, I think some
Speaker 1: women have complained about the side effects of the Hell,
Speaker 1: we know that in a lot of right wing circles.
Speaker 1: They've sort of hijacked that movement to be like, no,
Speaker 1: no woman should be on the pill. It's horrible for
Speaker 1: every single woman. You shouldn't be using this as a
Speaker 1: form of birth control. There have been lots of conversations
Speaker 1: about will conservatives in this country take away women's ability
Speaker 1: to get the pill period as a form of birth control.
Speaker 1: So how much of this sort of research urgence of
Speaker 1: you know, pulling out is in response to the current
Speaker 1: state that we're in, not to even mention, you know,
Speaker 1: abortion in this country and how it's so much harder
Speaker 1: for people to get abortions now. I could see people saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: I don't want to have any risk because if I
Speaker 1: live in Texas and I'm using the pull out method
Speaker 1: and it goes wrong, I can't just get an abortion pill.
Speaker 1: I can't just go, you know, to a planned parenthood
Speaker 1: and have an abortion. What's your response to that?
Speaker 2: So withdrawal isn't for everyone, So you should only use
Speaker 2: it if you are ambivalent about getting pregnant. So if
Speaker 2: it would be okay with you to have a pregnancy,
Speaker 2: that's great, Or if you have access to terminating a
Speaker 2: pregnancy that you wouldn't want to have, then maybe you'll
Speaker 2: be comfortable with withdrawal. But if you know, if you
Speaker 2: live in Texas, as you said, and you don't want
Speaker 2: to be pregnant, it's way. So I'm not saying everyone
Speaker 2: should be pulling out. Everyone should be able to have
Speaker 2: the choice for what birth control they want. So some
Speaker 2: people love their IUD, some people love their birth control pill,
Speaker 2: some people love pulling out. And the number one reason
Speaker 2: for why someone is satisfied with their birth control method
Speaker 2: is sexual satisfaction. And then in terms of the backlash
Speaker 2: against hormonal methods, we're seeing us horseshoe theory because for
Speaker 2: decades women have been saying no on the left have
Speaker 2: been saying we need better hormonal birth control methods, we
Speaker 2: need better birth control.
Speaker 4: Methods in general.
Speaker 2: There's all of these side effects, and now we're also
Speaker 2: seeing right wingers saying hormonal.
Speaker 4: Birth control is bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're all coming at the same conclusion from
Speaker 2: different sides. But it's true that we need a lot
Speaker 2: more research and investment into more types of birth control
Speaker 2: for women and also for men, which right now we
Speaker 2: don't have a single form of male birth control on
Speaker 2: the market in the US, besides condoms and vsectomy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why can't we take the pill.
Speaker 2: We can't take the pill because the medical industry in
Speaker 2: the US one doesn't think men.
Speaker 4: Will take it.
Speaker 2: A lot of women don't trust.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust the god to take no damn pill.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The people think there's no market for it, and so
Speaker 2: rather than letting men make the decision, we just won't
Speaker 2: put it on the market. And then when we've had
Speaker 2: clinical trials around the male birth control pill in the US,
Speaker 2: trial monitors shut it down because.
Speaker 4: They thought the side effects were too extreme side effects.
Speaker 2: You know, the side effects were almost identical to the
Speaker 2: ones that women deal with, so moodiness, lower libido, depression.
Speaker 2: Hormonal birth control does that for women, but no trub
Speaker 2: monitor shut that down.
Speaker 1: Well, professor, that was very informative. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me when a professor,
Speaker 3: a doctor and a friend and a friend most important.
Speaker 1: All right, well we'll be back after the break. All right, fellas,
Speaker 1: we just learned a lot. Now. I feel like we
Speaker 1: just did like ten years of sex ed in about
Speaker 1: twenty five minutes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was, I mean, certainly more useful
Speaker 3: than my sex ed classes in middle school where we
Speaker 3: didn't learn anything. Yeah, yeah, the absence except for that
Speaker 3: we shouldn't have sex, don't.
Speaker 1: Do it all? Right after hearing from Dre, how are
Speaker 1: we feeling about the pull out method?
Speaker 5: In some ways better? But also I wouldn't say worse,
Speaker 5: I feel worse about other methods. I suppose, Yeah, like
Speaker 5: the that's my The fact that the condoms and the
Speaker 5: pull up method were essentially essentially tide makes it seem
Speaker 5: makes me definitely change my stance on it as far
Speaker 5: as I mean again, if someone's coming to me for advice,
Speaker 5: I'll say, do everything you can.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remain shocked that, you know, based on what
Speaker 3: we heard growing up. Obviously, as you're younger, a big
Speaker 3: problem is like, is the guy gonna pull out?
Speaker 1: Even though yes, and I would say that's the one
Speaker 1: thing that you know, to know, what the point he's saying?
Speaker 1: What would I tell you know, let's say our hypothetical children.
Speaker 1: You know, if you two decide to have the talk
Speaker 1: with your kids, I'm good, there's gonna be a point
Speaker 1: being that I'm concerned about. To your point, manny is
Speaker 1: I guess put it giving a man uh that much
Speaker 1: risk reponsibility. And I know this is this sucks because
Speaker 1: I think we do this all the time, which is
Speaker 1: like the women have to take all the responsibility when
Speaker 1: it comes to sex. But at least I guess if
Speaker 1: I were talking to someone who can get pregnant, I
Speaker 1: would want them to do everything within their control to
Speaker 1: make sure that they do not end up pregnant, which
Speaker 1: is like an ied birth control making sure their partner
Speaker 1: is wearing in condoms. It's a lot harder to be like, hey, well,
Speaker 1: I guess they can also communicate when they're ovulating, but yeah,
Speaker 1: then you're putting. I guess it makes more sense to
Speaker 1: me to do this with someone who you trust, you're
Speaker 1: in a committed relationship with, and not like a casual
Speaker 1: partner who you're like, I don't really trust this dude.
Speaker 1: I told him to pull out, but like hopefully he, yeah,
Speaker 1: does it. And in that case, yeah, I would think
Speaker 1: I would feel more comfortable under those conditions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, clearly the best way, which was reference in the
Speaker 3: data that Dre was talking about, is like, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: withdrawal method in uh, in addition to other methods, and
Speaker 3: that's like the best way to go.
Speaker 1: M Well, I will say this. If you guys, are
Speaker 1: you know, since you're not talking to your parents about it,
Speaker 1: you're out of school. If you want to learn some
Speaker 1: things about sex education, you should actually watch Netflix. Is
Speaker 1: Sex Education? Great show? I think it's accurate. Well, well,
Speaker 1: we'll call up Drey afterwards and see. But I learned
Speaker 1: a lot watching that show.
Speaker 3: Are we getting paid for this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, they cut the check. If you're in the mood
Speaker 1: for another spicy episode, check out why are Slurs making
Speaker 1: a comeback? Episode three of No Such Thing. We'll link
Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. No Such Thing is
Speaker 1: produced by Manny Fidel nor Friedman and Me Devin Joseph.
Speaker 1: Theme song by Manny, audition of music by Zo. Our
Speaker 1: guest this week was Andrea Becker. Her new book, Get
Speaker 1: It Out on the politics of hysterectomy, will be out
Speaker 1: later this summer, but we'll put a link to the
Speaker 1: pre order in the show notes. If you want to
Speaker 1: check out some of the references that we talk about
Speaker 1: in this episode and see a map of the US
Speaker 1: and what is required for each state in terms of
Speaker 1: sex said, we're going to drop that at our newsletter
Speaker 1: at No Such Thing that show, And if you want
Speaker 1: to email us a question, feedback, anything, Hit us up
Speaker 1: at Manny noahdevinat gmail dot com. All right, well, we'll
Speaker 1: see you guys next week