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Speaker 1: I'm Manny and this is Devin, and this is no

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Speaker 1: such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments

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Speaker 1: in yours by actually doing the research. Today we're talking

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Speaker 1: about sex ad birth control in the case for pulling out.

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Speaker 2: I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,

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Speaker 2: but nobody wants to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such.

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Speaker 1: Thank thank all Right, fellas, this is gonna be an

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Speaker 1: interesting one. Uh scared. We we as a friend group,

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Speaker 1: do not do a lot of locker room talk like

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Speaker 1: our like our president. So we'll try to keep this

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Speaker 1: a little PG. Thirteen. Yes, if you're listening with young children,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad they're a fan of the show. But maybe

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Speaker 1: they should skip this episode.

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Speaker 3: Or maybe they should keep listen where they.

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Speaker 1: Can listen to it. And then at the end we'll

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Speaker 1: they actually should have skipped it.

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Speaker 3: It's too late now, so.

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Speaker 1: Let's start the conversation here. Have either of you had

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Speaker 1: the talk? No, no, this is crazy, not from parents,

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Speaker 1: So neither of you had the talk with your parents. No, no,

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Speaker 1: didn't come up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't worry about this ship. Yeah, your parents were like,

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Speaker 3: you're not gonna have to worry.

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Speaker 1: I did have the conversation with my dad. I had

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Speaker 1: to be I was young. I had to be like ten,

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Speaker 1: nine or ten. It was you know, it was a

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Speaker 1: very top level conversation. Did so growing up? What was

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Speaker 1: the conversation around like birth control contraceptive did you guys?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Was it just through school?

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Speaker 2: Dude?

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Speaker 1: Your parents weren't like, hey, make sure you stay safe? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: It was mostly through school, and we we were in

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Speaker 3: one in a neighborhood that school, like public school systems

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Speaker 3: were like, we really got to beat it out of

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Speaker 3: these kids specifically, so we had that kind of sex

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Speaker 3: said that was like everyone, get a ring. You are

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Speaker 3: now a little bit. It was all like abstinence. They

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Speaker 3: sent us home with the baby dolls that yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know they do that on Love Island.

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Speaker 3: Come on Beautiful Baby Boy, Cry maybe you and they're

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Speaker 3: like twenty something and that show. Yeah, yeah, I was,

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Speaker 3: I must have been thirteen or something.

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Speaker 1: How was that experience for you?

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Speaker 3: I remember it, like, you know, I don't think it

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Speaker 3: works as nearly as well as the programs think it does,

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Speaker 3: because you know, it's not real. It's a fake doll.

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Speaker 3: I like hit it under some pillows and like cover

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Speaker 3: so I didn't hear it crying. It really was like,

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Speaker 3: I know, mean girls has a scene like this, but

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Speaker 3: then they're parioding the kind of sex at that I got,

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Speaker 3: which is like, if you even touch someone, you're gonna die.

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Speaker 4: I guess we'll never know what I missed on that

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Speaker 4: first day of health class.

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Speaker 1: Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die.

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Speaker 3: And uh yeah, it was not very effective because in

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Speaker 3: my seventh grade uh school trip to d c to

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Speaker 3: the kids were going off in the back of the

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Speaker 3: bus on the bus and she got pregnant. Wait they

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Speaker 3: were wait going off Okay, but anyway, like that was

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Speaker 3: one of the schools I think where they went hard

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Speaker 3: on like sex heads.

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Speaker 1: Because they were about teenage pregnancies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it just kind of backfires, I think.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it was all abstinence based though

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Speaker 1: there wasn't any talk about.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like if you're gonna have sex, do this

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Speaker 3: and this and this. It was all like, don't even

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Speaker 3: touch each other.

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Speaker 1: Look at it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, I really I remember doing like health class.

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Speaker 5: I really don't remember any sex said except for like

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Speaker 5: we watched a baby being born video.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but like I don't.

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Speaker 5: I really don't remember anything. It certainly wasn't like abstinence education.

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Speaker 5: I don't remember anything about like like you see in

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Speaker 5: movies or whatever, like they're putting a condom on a banana.

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Speaker 1: Abstinence wasn't something that stressed. I don't remember. In school,

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Speaker 1: sex head was very sort of like anatomy based. A

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Speaker 1: lot of the conversation was around anatomy, right, So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really like real world here's what's gonna happen, here's

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Speaker 1: what you should do, but it was like a big

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Speaker 1: fear of like pregnancy, like you know, both in school

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Speaker 1: and outside of school, was just like, yeah, you're too

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Speaker 1: young to be having sex, but if you are going

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Speaker 1: to be having sex, make sure you're using protection.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you not want it's too pronged. Yes, you

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Speaker 3: shouldn't do it, but if you are, yes, here's what

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Speaker 3: you should be doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I kind of what I remember is more just learning

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Speaker 5: about how someone becomes pregnant, like as far as like

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Speaker 5: looking at diagrams and like parts, more than like like

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Speaker 5: reproductive yeah more yeah, just like more reproductive health than

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Speaker 5: like education on like how to, yeah, how to do

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Speaker 5: how to or how not to.

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Speaker 1: As we hear from Manny he had friends at a

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Speaker 1: young age that were sexually active. What was the sentiment

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Speaker 1: amongst your friends when you were kids around sex and protection, Like,

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Speaker 1: were people talking about using condoms, already talking about not

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Speaker 1: using condoms, already talking about other methods of birth control? Like,

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Speaker 1: for example, I remember in high school the kids who

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Speaker 1: were in sort of like long term relationships talking about

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Speaker 1: how their girlfriends were on the pale so they did

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Speaker 1: not use condoms.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember, I remember stuff like that. I don't

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Speaker 5: remember much like anti condom sentiment. I think there wasn't

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Speaker 5: enough in my circles going on for it to be

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Speaker 5: like cool to not like it's like all right, if

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Speaker 5: you're going to do it, then you'd use this and

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Speaker 5: that's that's great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think there were I remember certainly, you know a

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Speaker 3: few people who like wanted to seem cool or whatever

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Speaker 3: edge you're talking about how, oh my god, it's way

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Speaker 3: better without a.

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Speaker 1: Condom or whatever.

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Speaker 3: That went on throughout high school, yeah, and even college.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this brings us to the topic that we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about for today's episode, the pullout method.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember anything specifically about the pullout method? As

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Speaker 1: a kid, I guess I'll start. I remember hearing as

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Speaker 1: a kid, don't do that. It's bad. Yeah. Yeah, pull

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Speaker 1: out method is is not safe. Even before you finish.

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Speaker 1: There may be some things that come out that could

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Speaker 1: think perhaps pre yes, it just.

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Speaker 5: Takes one second, just takes one second.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also like, hey, you don't know when

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Speaker 1: it's gonna happen, do you don't have It was a

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Speaker 1: lot of like, you can't trust yourself to do this. Yep,

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Speaker 1: don't put yourself in a situation where you have to

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Essentially, I remember in part of the abstinence program that

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Speaker 3: they had us do uh talking about how pulling out

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Speaker 3: is not going like you think you're safe, but you're not.

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Speaker 3: So don't think that this is a you know, a

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Speaker 3: way you can get out of it. Get around them.

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Speaker 3: You're still gonna have a baby that's gonna be crying

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Speaker 3: all night and your parents won't help you.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you're gonna have to drop out of school.

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Speaker 1: Your life is gonna be ruined. You're not gonna go

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Speaker 1: to college, not to be successful, You're gonna be poor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and I and I remember them saying it.

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Speaker 3: But also I was believing it too. Yeah, sense I

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Speaker 3: was like, damn, yeah, okay, there's some science here that

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Speaker 3: I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: Sounds right to me, or I might argue, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to be the one.

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Speaker 5: Exactly, I'm not righting the research lab on this.

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Speaker 1: No, what if I told you that the pull out method,

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Speaker 1: according to this article, is as effective as male condoms

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Speaker 1: when used correctly.

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Speaker 3: As effective. I'm very surprised to hear that. I'd I'd

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Speaker 3: be scared i'd be able to tell you that.

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Speaker 1: Let me be accurate. The article says about as effective.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, about as effective. That surprises me. I could

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Speaker 3: you know, I can tell you that it is effective

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Speaker 3: and based on experience, but I would never argue that

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Speaker 3: it's about as effective as I always thought. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's a pretty big risk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I.

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Speaker 5: I'm curious to hear it out. Am I gonna personally

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Speaker 5: recommend this to someone asking me for, you know, sex advice,

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Speaker 5: which happens often.

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Speaker 1: Not not at.

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Speaker 3: This point, but let's hear him out.

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Speaker 1: So we'll be sitting down with the author of this

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Speaker 1: Slate article, the Case for pulling Out, Andrea Becker. That's

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Speaker 1: after the break Hey, do you have a conspiracy theory

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Speaker 1: that no one in your life can convince you is fake? Well,

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Speaker 1: send us a voice memo at Manny Noah Devin at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com and we may feature you in our

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Speaker 1: upcoming episode. And by the way, we'll just do this

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Speaker 1: now so we don't have to do it again in

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Speaker 1: the credits. But if you're a fan of this show,

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Speaker 1: go right now. It's it's a break, so you have

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Speaker 1: time rid us five stars and share it with a

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Speaker 1: front All right, back to the show. Okay, we're back.

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Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah Devin. And in the studio today

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Speaker 1: we have Professor Andrea Becker. She is a sexual reproductive

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Speaker 1: health researcher. She's a professor and most importantly, a friend

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Speaker 1: of the pod.

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Speaker 4: True.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome, it's great to have you.

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Speaker 4: Great to be here.

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Speaker 3: And thanks for pretending that this is a studio, not

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Speaker 3: my living.

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Speaker 4: It's a studio to me. These lights, studio lights, it's

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Speaker 4: right lights.

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Speaker 1: And you have a.

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Speaker 2: Book coming out, and I have a book coming out.

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Speaker 2: It's called Get It Out on the Politics of Hysterectomy.

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Speaker 2: It's out in July, but available for pre order now.

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Speaker 1: So Professor last year for Slate, you wrote an article

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Speaker 1: titled the Case for pulling Out. First of all, do

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Speaker 1: you stand by that absolutely? You know, just wanted to

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Speaker 1: make sure. So what was you know, the inception of

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Speaker 1: this article. What was the first time you thought about

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Speaker 1: pulling out.

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about pulling out since I was in

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Speaker 2: high school, I guess. Academically, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, academically awesome.

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Speaker 2: So I was in an honors anatomy class, and I

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Speaker 2: guess our teacher was a pretty radical guy, and he

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Speaker 2: told us about the female reproductive cycle and how there's

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Speaker 2: only three to five days where you can actually get pregnant.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't know that, especially compared to the abstinence

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Speaker 2: only sex education that I had had. This was in

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Speaker 2: North Carolina. They basically say, don't have sex, and we

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Speaker 2: won't explain anything further. Our teacher also implied that if

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Speaker 2: you are even naked in the same room, you could

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Speaker 2: get pregnant, and she didn't elaborate further, so I didn't

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Speaker 2: know what she meant for many years.

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Speaker 3: I got like vibes based intercourse.

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Speaker 4: No clue.

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Speaker 2: Still, I wish I remembered her name so I could

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Speaker 2: ask her. But yeah, so figuring out that there's only

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Speaker 2: five days out of the month where you can feasibly

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Speaker 2: get pregnant, and he said that he himself and his

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Speaker 2: wife had relied on pulling out and that it worked.

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Speaker 1: Did he use that phrase specifically?

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Speaker 4: I believe so, though I will.

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Speaker 2: Say that in the research it's referred to as the

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Speaker 2: withdrawal method or my favorite coitus interruptis is hoitus interrupted?

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Speaker 1: That sounds like I'm like a kid made up.

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Speaker 3: That's Harry Potters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JK. Rowling came out with that one.

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Speaker 1: So you were told this in high school and then

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Speaker 1: it was sort of on your mind and you wrote

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Speaker 1: this article. So you've been thinking about it this entire time?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Or did this something recently happen that you're like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I'm remembering my high school teacher talking about

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Speaker 1: pulling out.

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Speaker 2: No. Nothing, well, I guess getting into the space of

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Speaker 2: sexual and reproductive health researchers, I noticed that there was

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Speaker 2: a big divide among researchers and providers about withdrawal. So

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Speaker 2: some are very adamant that it's part of like sexual

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Speaker 2: and general autonomy, that you should be able to learn

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Speaker 2: about this method, that you should be taught the right ways.

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Speaker 2: And then there are a lot of providers and researchers

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Speaker 2: who say that it's not a form of birth control,

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Speaker 2: that it's really irresponsible to even talk about it. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of really stigmatizing language around it.

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Speaker 4: So some people still.

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Speaker 2: Call it the pull and prey method, as if you

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Speaker 2: need to use it in conjunction with religious practice, that

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Speaker 2: God needs to intervene in order for it to.

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Speaker 1: Work, okay, because it's so unreliable.

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Speaker 2: Most recently, someone that I really admire, a professor, said

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Speaker 2: something like, oh, you know what we call people who

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Speaker 2: pull out parents m So even researchers.

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Speaker 3: With this is I hate to say, but that's a

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Speaker 3: bar It is a bar line. They're wrong, but it's

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Speaker 3: a great line.

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Speaker 1: So okay, that's the like you're saying, that's researchers. What

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Speaker 1: has been the vibe with just like your friends and associates?

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Speaker 1: Is that a simil Because we were talking about earlier.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a similar sentiment of just like pulling

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Speaker 1: out like worst case scenario, but like that's not plan A.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,

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Speaker 2: but nobody wants to talk about it. And so even

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Speaker 2: within researchers. Interestingly, so the there is a reproductive health

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Speaker 2: conference that I go to every year. It's like a

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Speaker 2: really large conference, and one of the researchers who attends

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Speaker 2: every year did a survey with the various members. I

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Speaker 2: think she surveyed over three hundred people about the various

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Speaker 2: contraceptive methods that they use, and around seventy six percent

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Speaker 2: said they relied on withdrawal.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Why so it's the same people counseling patients to not

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Speaker 2: use it and writing papers about how everyone needs to

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Speaker 2: be on the IUD they're they're pulling out. Around sixty

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Speaker 2: five to sixty six percent of the population rely on withdrawal,

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Speaker 2: and this is about equal among young people in adolescents

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Speaker 2: as well. But a lot of people use in conjunction

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Speaker 2: to other methods, So they're using withdrawal and also using

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Speaker 2: condoms or using withdrawal and birth control. So there's responsible

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Speaker 2: ways to use it, and it doesn't mean you're it's

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Speaker 2: your only method necessarily, So that's okay.

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Speaker 1: That makes that number make a little bit more sense

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Speaker 1: to me. How much So sixty five percent of people

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Speaker 1: are saying they just use withdrawal period but some combination

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Speaker 1: OLiS people are using withdrawal and combination with maybe birth

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Speaker 1: control or condoms.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of your primary form of birth control,

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Speaker 2: the latest data from twenty twenty three, so two thirds

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Speaker 2: of women have at least at some point relied on

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Speaker 2: withdrawal as their primary form of birth control.

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Speaker 3: So we now know how many people rely on pulling out,

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Speaker 3: but I want to know how effective it actually is.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So in a large national study, eighteen percent of

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Speaker 2: couples who solely rely on withdrawal will have an unplanned pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: That's anonomy. So what we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: The condoms is seventeen percent.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, correctly.

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing this anymore. So these numbers that Dray

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Speaker 1: is referencing actually come from a two thousand and eight

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Speaker 1: paper published in the journal Contraception. The researchers looked at

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Speaker 1: a bunch of studies and found that with typical use,

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Speaker 1: so you know, not getting it perfectly right every single time,

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Speaker 1: eighteen percent of couples who rely on a pull out

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Speaker 1: method could expect to get pregnant within a year. With

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Speaker 1: typical use, seventeen percent of couples who rely on condoms

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Speaker 1: can expect to get pregnant within a year, and if

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Speaker 1: you're using these methods perfectly. So let's say with the

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Speaker 1: pull out method, the person with a penis pulls out

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Speaker 1: every single time for ejaculating. Only four percent of couples

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Speaker 1: relying on a withdrawal method can expect a pregnancy within

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Speaker 1: a year, and with perfect condom use only two percent

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Speaker 1: of couples can expect a pregnancy within a year.

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Speaker 3: What is perfect? U?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, what does that look like? Because I think

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Speaker 1: we all have an idea in our mind, right, but

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Speaker 1: you were talking about even days that you can get pregnant.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, if this is my primary form of a contraception,

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Speaker 1: what am I doing?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 2: So there definitely needs to see some communication between partners

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Speaker 2: and so generally the semen should come nowhere near the

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Speaker 2: person's vagina, and then if there are multiple rounds of

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Speaker 2: sex happening, the person needs to urinate in between because

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Speaker 2: the person with the penis.

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Speaker 4: Good question.

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Speaker 1: I think everybody, probably.

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Speaker 4: Everyone should be after sex.

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Speaker 1: As I'm learning from you know, Hannah Horror asks and girls,

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Speaker 1: it is important to pe after sex.

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Speaker 4: It is you can get a U t I if

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Speaker 4: you don't did yes.

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Speaker 1: And with men Hannah Horror from Girls.

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Speaker 3: Made putting the show called Girl Girls.

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Speaker 1: A couple of seasons.

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Speaker 2: But so after ejaculating, sperm can live in the urethra,

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Speaker 2: and so urinating can will kill those spurs, like flush

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Speaker 2: it out.

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Speaker 1: And push out, So you're gonna clean up eviction p

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Speaker 1: if you're doing multiple rounds both for UTIs and pregnancy purposes.

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Speaker 1: Everybody just go pee?

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Speaker 4: Yes, everybody just go pee?

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Speaker 1: Is really good. And then is there a window where

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Speaker 1: you should be doing this?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: You're talking about there's like three or four days where

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Speaker 1: a woman there's the only window that a woman can

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Speaker 1: get pregnant. And now that I think about it, I

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Speaker 1: did know that because when people are trying to get pregnant,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I'm in my window. We gotta go.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because women and men tend to only learn

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Speaker 2: about this window when they're trying to get pregnant. We

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Speaker 2: don't teach people this when they're trying to not get pregnant.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: So around two weeks after your period, so right in

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Speaker 2: the middle of your cycle, you ovulate, and so generally

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Speaker 2: five days before ovulation and the day after you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have unprotected sex. With the idea that maybe there's sperm

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Speaker 2: in the person's pre com.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is one of the primary reasons why I

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Speaker 1: have historically been told to not due to pull out method. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's like whatever, you think, you got it under control,

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Speaker 1: but you may pre come. Yeah, can a woman actually

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Speaker 1: get pregnant from pre com?

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Speaker 4: Really good question.

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Speaker 2: So pre com doesn't necessarily have sperm in it, okay,

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Speaker 2: but some people maybe have a little bit of sperm

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Speaker 2: in their pre com. So semen is the general fluid

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Speaker 2: that comes out during ejaculation, okay, and sperm is the

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Speaker 2: sex cells within there.

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Speaker 4: The likelihood is lower, but it only takes.

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Speaker 2: One sperm okay. And of course there's really limited research

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Speaker 2: on this. There's a few studies on it, some of

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Speaker 2: them they're typically really small numbers of men that they sample.

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Speaker 2: But we need a huge national longitude survey of pre come.

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Speaker 4: If I was the.

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Speaker 2: One, if I was setting the agenda for research, I

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Speaker 2: would be doing that.

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Speaker 3: So I guess what is your kind of response to

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Speaker 3: our middle school teachers who are like, pre come will

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Speaker 3: do it. I hear you're not necessarily disagreeing with that,

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Speaker 3: But in terms of pulling out as a contraceptive method.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I understand why public health professionals and

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Speaker 2: sex and teachers don't want young teenagers to know about

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Speaker 2: withdrawal as a legitimate form of contraception, because if it

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Speaker 2: has even higher rates of failure, that's you know, however,

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Speaker 2: many kids that are getting pregnant they don't want to,

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Speaker 2: and so on like a national scale, that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people getting pregnant when they don't want to. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but if you teach people or the proper technique, the

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Speaker 2: right knowledge about their cycle, so yessch pre com can

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Speaker 2: get you pregnant, but not if you're not ovulating. So

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Speaker 2: if you're ovulating, we're a condom.

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Speaker 3: So basically they're saying they're wanting to be basically misleading

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Speaker 3: for our better good. But you're saying, actually, the best

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Speaker 3: way to do that is be as transparent as possible.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, knowledge is power.

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Speaker 2: There's also just like a mistrust that people will use

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Speaker 2: birth control methods correctly at all. So there's this huge

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Speaker 2: bias within sex, said within medical practitioners where they want

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Speaker 2: patients to use the.

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Speaker 4: Most effective methods.

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Speaker 2: So they want people to use IUDs because there's very

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Speaker 2: little room for user error. The doctor places the device

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Speaker 2: and then that's it. So with a pill, you can

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Speaker 2: forget to take it, you can take at the wrong time.

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Speaker 2: With withdrawal, you can accidentally not pull out or do

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Speaker 2: it the wrong time of the month. And so there's

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Speaker 2: this huge bias towards just pushing these really high, highly

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Speaker 2: effective methods even if patients don't want to use it.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like to that point, condoms, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of room for error there, and that's always the

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Speaker 1: like even more than you know, I feel like IDs

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Speaker 1: are more recently and I feel like even when people

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Speaker 1: are a bit older, but early on, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's just like condoms, condoms, condoms, condoms like the only

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Speaker 1: form of birth control. Obviously they talk about women being

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Speaker 1: on the pail, but even still, it's like women on

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Speaker 1: the pail plus condoms, Right, Like, why is condoms always

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Speaker 1: the thing that's being talked about as like so effective.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's because condoms is the only thing that will

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Speaker 2: prevent STI transmission. And so that's some pushback I get

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Speaker 2: about withdrawal that if we say that withdrawal is an

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Speaker 2: acceptable form of contraception, then STI rates will increase. But

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Speaker 2: other than condoms, no other birth control prevents SDI transmission.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we talked a little bit earlier too about

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Speaker 1: how we had different experiences in school about education. You know,

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Speaker 1: many grew up in Ohio, know, in Connecticut, me in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. What is like sort of like the state

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Speaker 1: of sex education in the US, because we all learned

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Speaker 1: different things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so across the country, there's a really wide range

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Speaker 2: of what is mandated by the state. There's no federal guidelines,

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Speaker 2: so in some there has to be sex education, and

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Speaker 2: others there is no mandate on that, and some it

437
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 2: has to be medically accurate, and some they have to

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Speaker 2: teach about consent or LGBTQ sex.

439
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Speaker 4: But so it really varies across which state you're in.

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Speaker 1: It is crazy conversations in school about consent, at least

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Speaker 1: until you get to college, then they talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about consent. But in high school there was very little

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Speaker 1: to no conversations about consent. Consent. I get maybe it's

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Speaker 1: more of a thing now, but I feel like consent

445
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: was not a conversation even amongst friends or like family members,

446
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 1: like yeah, well, pleasure. I guess part of the issue is,

447
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: like I feel like so much of the conversations around

448
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: sex are about not getting pregnant. And it's not about pleasure.

449
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: It's not about like you know, like pleasuring your partner.

450
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: It's all about don't get pregnant, try not to do it.

451
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: If you are going to do it, try to be

452
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: safe about it. And like there's yeah, none of these

453
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: other aspects of it. You just sort of like figure

454
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: it out.

455
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that isn't changed with so in research.

456
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 2: Also, the way that demographers and public health researchers talk

457
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: about birth control, you'd think that people have sex to

458
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 2: test the effectiveness of different birth control. Like it's almost

459
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: radical to talk about pleasure as part of.

460
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: Birth Yeah, like does this feel good? Yeah, because I'm

461
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: not going to use it if it doesn't feel good,

462
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: because that's why I'm having sex.

463
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

464
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: So, Jenny Higgins in Wisconsin is one of the only

465
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: researchers I know who is asking people about sexual pleasure

466
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: and what birth control they use.

467
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So let me ask you this because you know,

468
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: I know you wrote this last year. I would say

469
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: within the last couple of years, there's been a lot

470
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: of backlash to the pill. You know, I think some

471
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: women have complained about the side effects of the Hell,

472
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: we know that in a lot of right wing circles.

473
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: They've sort of hijacked that movement to be like, no,

474
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: no woman should be on the pill. It's horrible for

475
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: every single woman. You shouldn't be using this as a

476
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 1: form of birth control. There have been lots of conversations

477
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: about will conservatives in this country take away women's ability

478
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: to get the pill period as a form of birth control.

479
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: So how much of this sort of research urgence of

480
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, pulling out is in response to the current

481
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: state that we're in, not to even mention, you know,

482
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: abortion in this country and how it's so much harder

483
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: for people to get abortions now. I could see people saying, Hey,

484
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to have any risk because if I

485
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: live in Texas and I'm using the pull out method

486
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: and it goes wrong, I can't just get an abortion pill.

487
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: I can't just go, you know, to a planned parenthood

488
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: and have an abortion. What's your response to that?

489
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: So withdrawal isn't for everyone, So you should only use

490
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: it if you are ambivalent about getting pregnant. So if

491
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: it would be okay with you to have a pregnancy,

492
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: that's great, Or if you have access to terminating a

493
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: pregnancy that you wouldn't want to have, then maybe you'll

494
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: be comfortable with withdrawal. But if you know, if you

495
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: live in Texas, as you said, and you don't want

496
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: to be pregnant, it's way. So I'm not saying everyone

497
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: should be pulling out. Everyone should be able to have

498
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: the choice for what birth control they want. So some

499
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: people love their IUD, some people love their birth control pill,

500
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: some people love pulling out. And the number one reason

501
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: for why someone is satisfied with their birth control method

502
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 2: is sexual satisfaction. And then in terms of the backlash

503
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: against hormonal methods, we're seeing us horseshoe theory because for

504
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: decades women have been saying no on the left have

505
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: been saying we need better hormonal birth control methods, we

506
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: need better birth control.

507
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: Methods in general.

508
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: There's all of these side effects, and now we're also

509
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: seeing right wingers saying hormonal.

510
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 4: Birth control is bad.

511
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're all coming at the same conclusion from

512
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: different sides. But it's true that we need a lot

513
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: more research and investment into more types of birth control

514
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: for women and also for men, which right now we

515
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: don't have a single form of male birth control on

516
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: the market in the US, besides condoms and vsectomy.

517
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, why can't we take the pill.

518
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: We can't take the pill because the medical industry in

519
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: the US one doesn't think men.

520
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 4: Will take it.

521
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: A lot of women don't trust.

522
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust the god to take no damn pill.

523
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

524
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: The people think there's no market for it, and so

525
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: rather than letting men make the decision, we just won't

526
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: put it on the market. And then when we've had

527
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: clinical trials around the male birth control pill in the US,

528
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: trial monitors shut it down because.

529
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 4: They thought the side effects were too extreme side effects.

530
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: You know, the side effects were almost identical to the

531
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: ones that women deal with, so moodiness, lower libido, depression.

532
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: Hormonal birth control does that for women, but no trub

533
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: monitor shut that down.

534
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: Well, professor, that was very informative. Thank you for joining us.

535
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me when a professor,

536
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 3: a doctor and a friend and a friend most important.

537
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: All right, well we'll be back after the break. All right, fellas,

538
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: we just learned a lot. Now. I feel like we

539
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: just did like ten years of sex ed in about

540
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 1: twenty five minutes.

541
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was, I mean, certainly more useful

542
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: than my sex ed classes in middle school where we

543
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: didn't learn anything. Yeah, yeah, the absence except for that

544
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: we shouldn't have sex, don't.

545
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: Do it all? Right after hearing from Dre, how are

546
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: we feeling about the pull out method?

547
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 5: In some ways better? But also I wouldn't say worse,

548
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 5: I feel worse about other methods. I suppose, Yeah, like

549
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 5: the that's my The fact that the condoms and the

550
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 5: pull up method were essentially essentially tide makes it seem

551
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 5: makes me definitely change my stance on it as far

552
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 5: as I mean again, if someone's coming to me for advice,

553
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 5: I'll say, do everything you can.

554
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remain shocked that, you know, based on what

555
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: we heard growing up. Obviously, as you're younger, a big

556
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: problem is like, is the guy gonna pull out?

557
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: Even though yes, and I would say that's the one

558
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: thing that you know, to know, what the point he's saying?

559
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: What would I tell you know, let's say our hypothetical children.

560
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: You know, if you two decide to have the talk

561
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: with your kids, I'm good, there's gonna be a point

562
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: being that I'm concerned about. To your point, manny is

563
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 1: I guess put it giving a man uh that much

564
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: risk reponsibility. And I know this is this sucks because

565
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: I think we do this all the time, which is

566
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: like the women have to take all the responsibility when

567
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: it comes to sex. But at least I guess if

568
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: I were talking to someone who can get pregnant, I

569
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: would want them to do everything within their control to

570
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: make sure that they do not end up pregnant, which

571
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: is like an ied birth control making sure their partner

572
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: is wearing in condoms. It's a lot harder to be like, hey, well,

573
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: I guess they can also communicate when they're ovulating, but yeah,

574
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: then you're putting. I guess it makes more sense to

575
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: me to do this with someone who you trust, you're

576
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: in a committed relationship with, and not like a casual

577
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: partner who you're like, I don't really trust this dude.

578
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: I told him to pull out, but like hopefully he, yeah,

579
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: does it. And in that case, yeah, I would think

580
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: I would feel more comfortable under those conditions.

581
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, clearly the best way, which was reference in the

582
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 3: data that Dre was talking about, is like, yeah, it's

583
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 3: withdrawal method in uh, in addition to other methods, and

584
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 3: that's like the best way to go.

585
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: M Well, I will say this. If you guys, are

586
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: you know, since you're not talking to your parents about it,

587
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: you're out of school. If you want to learn some

588
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: things about sex education, you should actually watch Netflix. Is

589
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: Sex Education? Great show? I think it's accurate. Well, well,

590
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: we'll call up Drey afterwards and see. But I learned

591
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: a lot watching that show.

592
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 3: Are we getting paid for this?

593
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they cut the check. If you're in the mood

594
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: for another spicy episode, check out why are Slurs making

595
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: a comeback? Episode three of No Such Thing. We'll link

596
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. No Such Thing is

597
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: produced by Manny Fidel nor Friedman and Me Devin Joseph.

598
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: Theme song by Manny, audition of music by Zo. Our

599
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: guest this week was Andrea Becker. Her new book, Get

600
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: It Out on the politics of hysterectomy, will be out

601
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: later this summer, but we'll put a link to the

602
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: pre order in the show notes. If you want to

603
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: check out some of the references that we talk about

604
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: in this episode and see a map of the US

605
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: and what is required for each state in terms of

606
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: sex said, we're going to drop that at our newsletter

607
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: at No Such Thing that show, And if you want

608
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: to email us a question, feedback, anything, Hit us up

609
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: at Manny noahdevinat gmail dot com. All right, well, we'll

610
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: see you guys next week