WEBVTT - We Built This Internet (So We Can Fix It) - Lab 116

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<v Speaker 1>What was your AOL instant messenger name? Do you remember it?

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<v Speaker 2>My closest friend at the time, her name was Tiffany Lindsay.

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<v Speaker 2>Shout out to her, and she gave me the nickname Teter,

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<v Speaker 2>and so my screen name back then was Teeter Totter

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<v Speaker 2>zero five. For the year that I graduated high school?

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<v Speaker 2>What was the obsession with the year that we graduated

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<v Speaker 2>high We were obsessed. I'm t T and I'm Zakiah

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<v Speaker 2>And this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a

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<v Speaker 2>weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and

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<v Speaker 2>a healthy dose of friendship. We've gone from anonymous screen

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<v Speaker 2>names to streaming our lives in four K. Every gadget

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<v Speaker 2>from our phones to our refrigerators are online.

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<v Speaker 3>But do we really know what that means? No, we don't.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the problem, and I think that's exactly what this

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<v Speaker 2>lab is all about.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start with what we do know.

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<v Speaker 2>What I know is we share almost everything online. And

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<v Speaker 2>when I say we, I mean the collective we Most

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<v Speaker 2>people that I know are putting a lot of their

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<v Speaker 2>lives on the Internet. I think the other thing we know,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you don't know, you are increasingly learning is

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<v Speaker 2>that these smart devices are always listening. I'll be the

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<v Speaker 2>first to say. Before I used to be like, who

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<v Speaker 2>has time to do extra manufacturing, Like nobody's including a

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<v Speaker 2>microphone and a device that's not marketed as having a

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<v Speaker 2>microphone or a speaker. But I'm not so sure about that, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And with that in mind, and knowing that the Internet

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<v Speaker 2>connects all of us, it also exposes us, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it would become very vulnerable because of it. Yes, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's not even just what you share. That feels like

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<v Speaker 2>where you've been, like a physical history, location services from

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<v Speaker 2>your phone. Yeah, people know where you are. Somebody knows

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<v Speaker 2>where you are, somebody Oh yeah, but t T what.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we want to know?

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<v Speaker 2>I want to know how we went from dial up

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<v Speaker 2>innocence to total surveillance, because I mean, that's within our lifetime, Zee,

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<v Speaker 2>like to go from dial up internet to now it's

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<v Speaker 2>like pervasive. It's ubiquitous to have all of these like

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<v Speaker 2>location services and things listening to you, and your emails

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<v Speaker 2>are sending you emails of things that you searched on

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet, and.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just wild, like how did we get there? And

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<v Speaker 3>why did it happen so fast?

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<v Speaker 2>And now that we're there and we know that some

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<v Speaker 2>of these platforms are breaking our trusts and putting cookies

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<v Speaker 2>on our phone and tracking what you do. Why do

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<v Speaker 2>we still trust the platforms that are doing that? Why

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<v Speaker 2>do we still use them? And now it's starting to

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<v Speaker 2>shift to like it just being par for the core,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess. And so with that thinking about that, I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>is privacy now just a.

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<v Speaker 1>Thing of the past? Like is it a nostalgic thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like, oh remember the good old days, like

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<v Speaker 2>when nobody could figure out where you lived by just

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<v Speaker 2>doing a simple Google search, or people couldn't find out

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<v Speaker 2>where you worked, Like people couldn't find pictures of you

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<v Speaker 2>unless you know, you put them out there, Like it's

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<v Speaker 2>just wild. And you're talking about privacy being nostalgic, girl,

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<v Speaker 2>what about fun on the internet?

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<v Speaker 1>Nostalgic?

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<v Speaker 2>The Internet is not fun no more. I don't like it.

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<v Speaker 2>It just feels everything is so mean, judgmental, like fake.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody's just showing like the good stuff, Like I'm just like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh my gosh, show me your messy bedside table. That's

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<v Speaker 2>my favorite thing to see.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. To answer all of.

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<v Speaker 2>Our burning questions about the Internet, where it used to be,

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<v Speaker 2>how it got to how it is and what we

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<v Speaker 2>can do about it. We're talking to Bridget Time, host

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<v Speaker 2>of There Are No Girls on the Internet. She's a

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<v Speaker 2>digital activist, podcaster, and professional Internet explainer. You can find

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<v Speaker 2>her on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.

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<v Speaker 3>The Bridget.

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<v Speaker 2>We want to start out with reflecting just how much

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet has changed. It's gone from the scary thing

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<v Speaker 2>where your parents said don't talk to strangers to all

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<v Speaker 2>of us sharing everything.

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<v Speaker 3>Back in the.

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<v Speaker 4>Day, if you met on a dating app or an

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<v Speaker 4>online dating site, if there was a stigma to it.

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<v Speaker 4>I remember a woman in my school I met her

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<v Speaker 4>husband on an online dating like ooh scandal. And now

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<v Speaker 4>that's how the majority of people meet their partners.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hm, that's how majority people meet are meeting friends.

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<v Speaker 2>These days, people are meeting their friends online and then

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<v Speaker 2>meeting up and saying, hey, I'm meeting irl in real life,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's just wild. I mean, I remember back in

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<v Speaker 2>the day putting your card information into anything online. It

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<v Speaker 2>was just like, might as well just broadcast it to

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<v Speaker 2>everybody in the world because it just didn't feel safe.

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<v Speaker 2>And now I'm like, if my card information is not

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<v Speaker 2>stored on my phone and I'm able to just tap

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<v Speaker 2>tap use my face by the thing I am not.

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<v Speaker 4>What is the point of living in a surveillance state

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<v Speaker 4>if I still have to by hand type in my

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<v Speaker 4>credit card information every single time.

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<v Speaker 2>There has to be perks. There has to be perks

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<v Speaker 2>to living in the surveillance state. I always say it.

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<v Speaker 1>Is I think we're all hostage to convenience.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I think convenience is what has eroded some of

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<v Speaker 2>the long arm that we had to keep us kind

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<v Speaker 2>of distant from the Internet. And it feels like convenience

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<v Speaker 2>is like the carrot that they dangled in Now we're

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<v Speaker 2>all just all in. Yeah, And I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>act like I'm immune to it or above it, because

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<v Speaker 2>only recently that I start really doing a deep dive

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<v Speaker 2>into the ways that I have let the convenience of things.

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<v Speaker 3>Like Uber Eats, you know, things like.

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<v Speaker 4>Amazon really shape and rebuild my life in ways I

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<v Speaker 4>hadn't even ever really noticed or thought about. And I've

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<v Speaker 4>been trying to make intentional efforts to not just resist

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<v Speaker 4>that but just be more aware of it. But I

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<v Speaker 4>do think this grip that novelty and convenience has on

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<v Speaker 4>us is directly responsible to where we are when it

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<v Speaker 4>comes to our current online and social media landscape.

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<v Speaker 3>It really has us in a choke hold.

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<v Speaker 2>It's such a good point. I mean, I think the

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<v Speaker 2>amount of trust that we put into the Internet, the cloud,

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<v Speaker 2>all those things is really mind boggling, because I mean

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<v Speaker 2>that's why when people are like, oh, I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>them to take my picture here, because I'm like, hey, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they already have it. I hate to hate to break

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<v Speaker 2>the news too, they already have. They're like, oh you

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<v Speaker 2>don't you can opt out of those pictures at TSA.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey you have a driver's license. TSA has your photo,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's a live photo with your hair up in

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<v Speaker 2>a ponytail on top of your head and crusting your

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<v Speaker 2>eyes or your license either or they have your photo.

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<v Speaker 2>So like we have to stop convincing ourselves that we

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<v Speaker 2>aren't living in a surveillance state. And so, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it just kind of is what it is.

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<v Speaker 4>I have these conversations with my uncles and cousins where

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<v Speaker 4>they're like, oh, don't do X y Z. That's how

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<v Speaker 4>they get you. And I'm like, well, I think they

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<v Speaker 4>have You're on social media.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they have you.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think I think that ship has sailed. This

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<v Speaker 4>is sort of what I always preach on the show.

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<v Speaker 4>I completely am aligned with you that like they've got us.

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<v Speaker 4>But I think it also is easy to sort of

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<v Speaker 4>let that very true attitude be like, oh.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, then there's no need.

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<v Speaker 4>For digital security practices. It you have to find a

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<v Speaker 4>balance between kind of the reality that we live in

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<v Speaker 4>this surveillance state and not falling into like digital nihilisms,

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<v Speaker 4>like so it doesn't matter, there's no need to try

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<v Speaker 4>to be secure, there's no need for two vector authentication,

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<v Speaker 4>there's no need to take common sense you know, free

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<v Speaker 4>digital security practices actually right now.

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<v Speaker 3>But it is. It is a very weird balance.

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<v Speaker 4>And I just think you're so right that I would

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<v Speaker 4>never have thought that we and I'm including myself very

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<v Speaker 4>much in this, would give up so much for things

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<v Speaker 4>like convenience and novelty.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think the question we should be asking the

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<v Speaker 3>question of.

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<v Speaker 4>Is the convenience that we're getting back is it worth

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<v Speaker 4>those trade offs?

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<v Speaker 3>Because I think the answer is not always hard.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is so interesting because we had these

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<v Speaker 2>two women on our show. They talked about science denial,

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<v Speaker 2>and they talked about it not being that you blanket

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<v Speaker 2>deny science, but that you cafeteria style pick what you want.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing that with my digital privacy and trust. Like

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<v Speaker 2>t T and I have a difference. I'm gonna say

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<v Speaker 2>TT is present except on all those cookies.

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<v Speaker 1>Ooh, t T. I just don't want to wait.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I was like, if it's taking me from Instagram,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, ooh, that bag looks so good, and I

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<v Speaker 2>hit open and then it's like, do you accept I'm like, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>except I want to see the bag. I'm not doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's something recently that you posted, Bridget that made

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<v Speaker 2>me think about something I am doing. I'm against a

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<v Speaker 2>ring doorbell camera, but I have a camera in my

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<v Speaker 2>kitchen which points to like my back door. Now, I know,

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<v Speaker 2>TT shocking, right, Like I'm saying no to the cookies,

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<v Speaker 2>but that camera is connected to Wi Fi, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, there's so many like people have refrigerators

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<v Speaker 2>and baby monitors and all these things that connect to

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<v Speaker 2>Wi Fi, and I am not in the position to

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<v Speaker 2>be protecting these devices and what they're connected to. And

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<v Speaker 2>why does my thumbstat at my house have a speaker

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<v Speaker 2>on it? I just found that on accident the other

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<v Speaker 2>day trying to connect my Apple TV to an output,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was like, you don't know what's going on.

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<v Speaker 3>Girl.

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<v Speaker 2>You have these devices in here, but you just talked

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<v Speaker 2>about Wendy on Real housewile Kiamic. Oh yeah, I want

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<v Speaker 2>you to give a some give our audience a rundown

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<v Speaker 2>of what's happening and how these devices can betray you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, so thank you for even asking me

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<v Speaker 2>this question, because this is just such a cross section

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<v Speaker 2>of my specific interest. So, doctor Wendyosefo, she is one

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<v Speaker 2>of the stars the Real Housewives of Potomac, and I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>like if I were to classify her on like a

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<v Speaker 2>type on the show, she is educated.

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<v Speaker 3>She will never let you forget that she has four degrees.

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<v Speaker 3>She's a PhD. Like she's a smart cookie.

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<v Speaker 4>And her and her husband were both arrested because police

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<v Speaker 4>say they had staged a burglary in their home while

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<v Speaker 4>they were on vacation out of the country, and then

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<v Speaker 4>they said, oh, all of these luxury goods were stolen.

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<v Speaker 4>They filed those goods with their insurance. They were attempting to,

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<v Speaker 4>according to police, scam their various insurance companies almost for

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<v Speaker 4>a half a million dollars, so like a pretty you know,

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<v Speaker 4>this is.

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<v Speaker 1>A big chunk.

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<v Speaker 4>We're talking about felony level charges here.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I heard this, I was shook.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know if you guys watched the show, but

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<v Speaker 4>of all the people probably across the Bravo universe, of

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<v Speaker 4>the shows I watched, I can't think of somebody that

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<v Speaker 4>I was least expecting this kind of news from. Then,

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<v Speaker 4>when there are a million other people, I would have thought, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 4>she probably she might go to jail, she might get arrested.

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<v Speaker 4>Wendy is not high on that list. So I poured

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<v Speaker 4>through the police report.

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, I need to know. I want some information.

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<v Speaker 4>And when I got to the point of the police

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<v Speaker 4>report where they said, oh, well, they had a ring

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<v Speaker 4>camera that was turned on that they were monitoring remotely

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<v Speaker 4>while they were on vacation in Jamaica, and that ring

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<v Speaker 4>camera showed Amazon delivery drivers coming up to their house

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<v Speaker 4>dropping off packages and leaving, but nobody entering. And further,

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<v Speaker 4>they had an ADYT security system that was also turned

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<v Speaker 4>on while they were on vacation, supposedly getting robbed, that

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<v Speaker 4>had motion detectors that did not log any motion from

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<v Speaker 4>within their home at the time when they said they

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<v Speaker 4>were being robbed.

0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.880
<v Speaker 3>So I Wendy's a smart.

0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.880
<v Speaker 4>Cookie, but I don't know that in our current sort

0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:55.360
<v Speaker 4>of surveillance state that she might have known. Oh, these

0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.880
<v Speaker 4>systems that I voluntarily put in my home aren't just

0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.400
<v Speaker 4>recording bad guys or suspicious characters whatever. They're recording me,

0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.560
<v Speaker 4>and you know, innocidential proven guilty. I don't know what

0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.800
<v Speaker 4>actually happened there. We'll see, but it just goes to

0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.199
<v Speaker 4>show that I don't think people really understand these are

0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:19.920
<v Speaker 4>surveillance devices, and oftentimes ring camera especially, they can share

0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:23.720
<v Speaker 4>information with police without a warrant and without your consent.

0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.040
<v Speaker 3>I believe ADT don't quote me in this.

0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.520
<v Speaker 4>I believe ADT will share information with police if there

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.440
<v Speaker 4>is an act of investigation. So I don't think that

0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.160
<v Speaker 4>police need a warrant, But if the police ask, they're

0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.480
<v Speaker 4>not necessarily protecting your privacy. And I just think with

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.040
<v Speaker 4>things like ring camera, I think there is an attitude

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 4>that you get the camera in your house so that

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.480
<v Speaker 4>you surveil others, and you don't understand necessarily that like, well,

0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.600
<v Speaker 4>that also means you are the one being surveilled and

0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 4>you brought this on yourself.

0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.480
<v Speaker 3>And so with Wendy, to me, it does kind of.

0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.040
<v Speaker 4>Seem like she paid to voluntarily put an OP in

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.920
<v Speaker 4>her home, and if she was indeed doing scams and crimes,

0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.640
<v Speaker 4>might not be the best thing to do. And I

0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:08.720
<v Speaker 4>just don't But I think it illustrates that we're not

0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.800
<v Speaker 4>necessarily thinking about technology like this in that way, Like

0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 4>when you buy it, you think this is for me

0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 4>to surveil others. Certainly I will not be the surveiled,

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:21.520
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, in a surveillance siled.

0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 2>I could say the same thing for every device that

0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 2>we have, like I mean even your location services on

0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.280
<v Speaker 2>your phone, that data is being collected. That's the reason

0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.840
<v Speaker 2>why when someone goes missing, they're like find their cell phone,

0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.680
<v Speaker 2>which towers isn't pinging off of and things like that.

0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.280
<v Speaker 2>So if every device is collecting data, who is that

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.600
<v Speaker 2>data really for the company or law enforcement, or for

0:13:57.720 --> 0:13:58.720
<v Speaker 2>us or all three?

0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.400
<v Speaker 4>And it goes back to what you were saying about

0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.560
<v Speaker 4>your the various items that you have in your home.

0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.920
<v Speaker 4>I think people don't realize how hard it is to

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.840
<v Speaker 4>find common household electronics that do not have some sort

0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.439
<v Speaker 4>of recording device. In them, and you know your fridge,

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 4>your ice maker, your toaster, like the way that everything

0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 4>is smart now. I recently wanted to buy fitness trackers

0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.880
<v Speaker 4>and I had to really do a lot of research

0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 4>to find one that was quote dumb enough for me,

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.800
<v Speaker 4>because yeah, I want to log my steps and get

0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.960
<v Speaker 4>some information about my sleep. I don't want my location

0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.440
<v Speaker 4>being tracked everywhere. I don't want my menstrual cycles being

0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 4>information at Amazon collects about me. Some of this stuff

0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.600
<v Speaker 4>is intimate, and I actually don't really consent. There's actually

0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.640
<v Speaker 4>a really great gift guide that Mozilla Foundation put out

0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.440
<v Speaker 4>called the Privacy Not Included Guide, where you can look

0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.000
<v Speaker 4>at different consumer tech and say, like, okay, which one

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.520
<v Speaker 4>is surveilling me the most and which one is revealing

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.920
<v Speaker 4>me the least, just so that you can make informed

0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.240
<v Speaker 4>decisions about how the stuff fits in with your life.

0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I use AT and T and I think it really

0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 2>clicked for me. When there's a thing you can log

0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.200
<v Speaker 2>in and see how many devices are trying to connect

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:15.800
<v Speaker 2>to the WiFi.

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 1>I was like, what are the thirty seven items? What

0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 1>are they?

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 3>What are they? It is that?

0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 1>Man? It was blowing my mind.

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.000
<v Speaker 2>You got people in there it's me and the devices.

0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, you have to turn this stuff off.

0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 2>Another thing that I have a feeling about. And I'm like,

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 2>bridget tell me if I'm tripping. Sometimes I turn off

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>Wi Fi while I'm out, and same thing for Bluetooth,

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>and then i feel like I look again and the

0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:45.080
<v Speaker 2>WiFi is back on, and I'm like, I know, and

0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I feel like I have to actively monitor

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 2>my device to keep myself safe.

0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:50.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Am I making that up? Or is that nothing?

0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.640
<v Speaker 4>I think our devices will default to those kinds of settings,

0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.840
<v Speaker 4>and even if you tell it, hey, I don't really

0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 4>want this, it will always go back to that default

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 4>you're not trip. And I actually just learned this recently.

0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 4>It's gonna be a year or two ago. I was

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 4>reading something where someone said, oh, you shouldn't connect to

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.840
<v Speaker 4>public Wi Fi if you go to an airport or something.

0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.920
<v Speaker 3>Because that's that's how they get you. And I said, oh,

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.200
<v Speaker 3>that's not true. That's just a lie. I looked into it.

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.280
<v Speaker 3>It's not it's not it's not a lie.

0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I use a personal hotspot. I was trying to

0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.120
<v Speaker 2>trust a Delta lounge and I said, I don't know.

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:24.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the way they're trying to treat me

0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.320
<v Speaker 2>with these ticket categories. They can't be trusted anymore either.

0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.440
<v Speaker 1>But those those snacks are.

0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.640
<v Speaker 3>Very fa Yeah.

0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.400
<v Speaker 4>I do a lot of personal hotspotting too, because there

0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 4>are these things that you think of as commonplace or

0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.280
<v Speaker 4>that you think of as well. They wouldn't be offering

0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 4>this amenity if it was if there was a risk

0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 4>to me. And that's not always true, but even that

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:45.920
<v Speaker 4>line of thinking, I think.

0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:50.080
<v Speaker 3>Exposes how easy it is to make.

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.600
<v Speaker 4>Decisions that you don't you don't even really think about it,

0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 4>where you're trading on these risks and benefits to you.

0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.920
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, I think just it behooves us to have

0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.480
<v Speaker 4>more intentional conversations about these things as as more of

0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.640
<v Speaker 4>our devices become smart and Wi Fi enabled.

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right right, you had a smart toilet, is gonna

0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:10.560
<v Speaker 2>be telling all your poos?

0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, she was not happy last night.

0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.840
<v Speaker 2>But you've talked about what it's like to be a

0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 2>black woman who lives online, So we talked about surveillance

0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.119
<v Speaker 2>and so adding that additional layer of being a black woman.

0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.320
<v Speaker 2>What kind of risks do you feel like comes with

0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:28.359
<v Speaker 2>that kind of Oh my.

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.840
<v Speaker 4>Gosh, I mean, if you would have asked me this

0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.720
<v Speaker 4>question maybe two years ago, I would have had a

0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:34.400
<v Speaker 4>lot to say.

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 3>Right, I would have said, Oh, it's you know, the.

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.840
<v Speaker 4>Idea of being visible online, making your career online, being

0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 4>somebody who shows up on the internet as a black

0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.240
<v Speaker 4>woman with opinions, with things to say.

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.640
<v Speaker 3>You know, it can be tough but also can be good.

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 4>You know, there's community there, there's joy there, there is

0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.360
<v Speaker 4>resistance there. There is so much connection there. But it's

0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.480
<v Speaker 4>a double edged sword where there's also a tax. There's

0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.040
<v Speaker 4>also you know, very disingenuous people where no matter what

0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.240
<v Speaker 4>you say, there's gonna be somebody waiting in the wings

0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.399
<v Speaker 4>to take it out of context. That is what I

0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 4>would have said probably two years ago. Today in twenty

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:13.119
<v Speaker 4>twenty five, if I'm being honest, I barely show up

0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 4>online anymore.

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.960
<v Speaker 3>I just think that it's I don't know. I don't

0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:19.800
<v Speaker 3>want to sound.

0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.360
<v Speaker 4>Like a like a doom and gloomer, because I love

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.199
<v Speaker 4>the Internet and I'm forever and optimist about technology and

0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.200
<v Speaker 4>the Internet and all of those things. Those things are

0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.960
<v Speaker 4>so important to me. But I think it started when

0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.159
<v Speaker 4>Elon Musk bought Twitter and I was just sort of

0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.760
<v Speaker 4>really mourning the loss of that platform, because that was

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:38.879
<v Speaker 4>an important platform for me.

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 3>If you were a part of og Black Twitter.

0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.600
<v Speaker 4>You remember what it felt like to be there and

0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.080
<v Speaker 4>like the genuine joy and connection that was to be

0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.760
<v Speaker 4>found there. I was like, Oh, I know it's gonna

0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.080
<v Speaker 4>be trash, but let me just stick around and see

0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.960
<v Speaker 4>what this platform is like. And it was just it

0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 4>felt like day by day, little by little being chipped away.

0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.800
<v Speaker 4>And it wasn't just the over the top races and

0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:02.360
<v Speaker 4>the amplification of.

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:03.640
<v Speaker 3>Conspiracy theories and all of that.

0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.879
<v Speaker 4>It was a lot of that, but also it felt

0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.840
<v Speaker 4>like wading through spam much more often. And this has

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.400
<v Speaker 4>got to say that the early days of Twitter were great,

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.760
<v Speaker 4>because I had a lot of problems with those days

0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 4>as well. But after a while I just thought, what

0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.480
<v Speaker 4>am I getting out of this? Like it is not

0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.600
<v Speaker 4>bringing me any kind of joy to sign on here

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.879
<v Speaker 4>day after day. And I do think that the decisions

0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.840
<v Speaker 4>that Elon Musk made about Twitter, I think for verberated

0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.560
<v Speaker 4>across a lot of social media platforms, and so I

0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.119
<v Speaker 4>think it wasn't just Twitter. I think a lot of

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 4>platforms where I used to spend a lot of time

0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.399
<v Speaker 4>became a lot less pleasant and a lot less. I

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.280
<v Speaker 4>guess worth it for me to show up. And so yeah,

0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 4>these days, I hate to say it, I am not

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.160
<v Speaker 4>really showing up online a ton because there's not There's

0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.040
<v Speaker 4>just not a lot of places that feel like genuine

0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.960
<v Speaker 4>connection and joy anymore. I don't know where do you

0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:57.679
<v Speaker 4>all fall on this.

0:19:57.720 --> 0:19:59.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm curious.

0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.359
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you, like so, I think one of

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:06.600
<v Speaker 2>the things that's really hard is I have those same sentiments.

0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:08.800
<v Speaker 2>But like, even for us, we don't show up with

0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.560
<v Speaker 2>a video podcast right, we are doing audio only. We

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.919
<v Speaker 2>don't do as much engagement as we used to because

0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.439
<v Speaker 2>you get the trolls like I love the potential like you,

0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:20.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm always like, oh, it could be so wonderful.

0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:21.880
<v Speaker 1>We could do a live we could have these things.

0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.680
<v Speaker 2>We could talk to you know, our friends, our dope

0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.840
<v Speaker 2>labs friends, we could do all these things. I'm like,

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how much more fallen off on the

0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:32.440
<v Speaker 2>internet platforms I can take.

0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.040
<v Speaker 1>When Google Reader died, I was sick.

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay, then there was then there was Twitter, and then

0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:38.919
<v Speaker 2>I tried to get on SPIL.

0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:40.800
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you tried spill. I did try it.

0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't really find my my group there. I did

0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>find some Pokemon players there, which is also an op.

0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.440
<v Speaker 2>You should not be playing Pokemon Go. It's so monitoring

0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.080
<v Speaker 2>your location and do it. I had to stop playing that.

0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.200
<v Speaker 2>But you need all that for that charge yard I do,

0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:58.680
<v Speaker 2>and so I had to give I had to give

0:20:58.680 --> 0:20:58.879
<v Speaker 2>it up.

0:20:58.880 --> 0:20:59.840
<v Speaker 1>I had to quit Cult Turkey.

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 2>But I also found like even on Instagram, the engagement

0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.159
<v Speaker 2>was just different and it felt like you had to

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.560
<v Speaker 2>be like selling something all the time and not.

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Just putting something super state together.

0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.520
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, I don't even I just found

0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:15.960
<v Speaker 2>myself in the stories having a good old time. And

0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.639
<v Speaker 2>even after a while that became like and so I

0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:20.360
<v Speaker 2>feel like I kind of check in a little bit

0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.200
<v Speaker 2>and then I'm out of their threads. It was good

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.680
<v Speaker 2>at first, Now it's going the way of Twitter with

0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.760
<v Speaker 2>people reposting the same thing over and over again. And

0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:31.359
<v Speaker 2>then even Pinterest, I was like, at least I can

0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.640
<v Speaker 2>look at pretty pictures. Now it's all ads and all

0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.280
<v Speaker 2>ai as well. Yes, and so I'm like, what's left?

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I guess substack, I just keep reading people substancs. I

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know, yes, honestly, like that's how I feel too.

0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.359
<v Speaker 2>I was just talking to one of my sisters about this. Yesterday,

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.879
<v Speaker 2>I was like Instagram like all the same feelings about Twitter.

0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.919
<v Speaker 2>Like once Twitter changed, I was like, this is no

0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:55.600
<v Speaker 2>longer a place for me. So I just I don't

0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.000
<v Speaker 2>even bother Instagram. It's to a point where AI where

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:03.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm I feel like I'm an old Auntie where I'm like, Wow,

0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.960
<v Speaker 2>this is amazing. And then my nephew who's eight, is

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 2>like Auntie TT that's AI, and I'm like.

0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.359
<v Speaker 3>Oh, are you sure?

0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm never really sure, Like the AI is getting so

0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.760
<v Speaker 2>good that I really am falling victim to and I'm

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:21.480
<v Speaker 2>just like this isn't fun, Like I want to see

0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:27.439
<v Speaker 2>like real stuff, And it's just I agree with Zakia,

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>where it's like the more you put on there, the

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:35.080
<v Speaker 2>more it's like they're just people who are so emboldened

0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.639
<v Speaker 2>by the anonymity of social media that it kind of

0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:44.320
<v Speaker 2>just like tainted the experience a lot. Where it's just

0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:48.480
<v Speaker 2>like if you make an account that's purely just theatroll,

0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.640
<v Speaker 2>like come on, like it's just it's just makes the

0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 2>whole experience just feel different. Where it's like now I'm overthinking.

0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.119
<v Speaker 2>Now I'm like, okay, should I put this? What if

0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.920
<v Speaker 2>somebody says this, and I don't want to feel like that,

0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.240
<v Speaker 2>and especially when it's something that's you know, tied to

0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:06.919
<v Speaker 2>something that I feel like is way bigger than me,

0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.359
<v Speaker 2>like Dope Labs and the keys involved. I'm like, I

0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 2>really have to think about it because we're attached to

0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:13.960
<v Speaker 2>this thing, and so we're trying to keep this a

0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.480
<v Speaker 2>safe space for not just us, Like I'm thinking about

0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the other people who really enjoy our show. I don't

0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:21.240
<v Speaker 2>want them to be subject to, you know, all these

0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:24.679
<v Speaker 2>different things, and so, you know, but I also feel

0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.760
<v Speaker 2>like if I do remove myself too much, then the

0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:30.480
<v Speaker 2>trolls are right, you know what I mean. Like, I

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.600
<v Speaker 2>feel like we got to keep showing up, and it's

0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.080
<v Speaker 2>just a matter of figuring out ways that we can

0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.840
<v Speaker 2>show up in a way that also we can practice

0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.840
<v Speaker 2>some self preservation so that we can find the spaces

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.120
<v Speaker 2>where you know, we fit. And it's not like, oh,

0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm just throwing myself to the wolves and things like that,

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:47.920
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean.

0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:52.200
<v Speaker 4>This is exactly the kind of balance I'm trying to find.

0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 4>And I think to your point about not wanting to

0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:58.520
<v Speaker 4>let the trolls and bad actors and all those folks

0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:03.639
<v Speaker 4>and voices win. People love talking about free speech on

0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:07.240
<v Speaker 4>social media platforms, but when someone stops showing up and

0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:11.800
<v Speaker 4>stops using their voice and really just goes quiet on

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:14.679
<v Speaker 4>these platforms because of these other voices, that is.

0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:15.920
<v Speaker 3>Also a free speech issue.

0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.919
<v Speaker 4>When you feel like you can't use these platforms effectively

0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:22.280
<v Speaker 4>or equitably to build a platform for yourself or put

0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.600
<v Speaker 4>your voice out there, or you know, engage with your

0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:26.159
<v Speaker 4>community or whatever you're trying to do.

0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:27.800
<v Speaker 3>That is also a free speech issue.

0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:31.639
<v Speaker 4>But one kind of saving grace that I have really

0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 4>been kind of reconnecting with lately against the backdrop of

0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:39.040
<v Speaker 4>all of this, that we all have in common is

0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:44.960
<v Speaker 4>the form of audio. I have said spicy stuff on

0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:47.919
<v Speaker 4>the podcast, stuff that if I put it in a

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:51.400
<v Speaker 4>tweet or a thread post, I would have to be

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 4>back and forth all day. I think there is something

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.600
<v Speaker 4>about long form audio content where if somebody wants to

0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.440
<v Speaker 4>take my words out of content text or misconstrue them,

0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:04.800
<v Speaker 4>or you know they're committed to misunderstanding me, they have

0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:07.320
<v Speaker 4>to listen to an hour long podcast to do that.

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:10.520
<v Speaker 3>The barrier is quite high. So you gotta you gotta

0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:11.960
<v Speaker 3>really want to do.

0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:12.399
<v Speaker 1>That to me.

0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.160
<v Speaker 4>You got to really, I was just talking to you

0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:18.680
<v Speaker 4>a friend of mine that makes podcasts, and his podcast

0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.000
<v Speaker 4>is quite big, it's one of the biggest podcasts.

0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:21.080
<v Speaker 1>In the world.

0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:25.399
<v Speaker 4>And he said that, you know, he doesn't weirdly, he

0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:30.159
<v Speaker 4>doesn't really get a lot of trolls and stuff because.

0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:32.240
<v Speaker 3>They're not out here doing short form.

0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:34.800
<v Speaker 4>They're not on Twitter really or blue Sky really, they're

0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:38.840
<v Speaker 4>not in that sort of live streamer debate kind of circle.

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:39.359
<v Speaker 3>And that.

0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, audio can be kind of protective, and I think

0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:45.360
<v Speaker 4>it's because it's a medium that is so you can

0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:47.800
<v Speaker 4>be authentic there. You can explain what you need to

0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.080
<v Speaker 4>say in your own words. One of my favorite things

0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:55.359
<v Speaker 4>about listening to audio content is listening to somebody work

0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:57.800
<v Speaker 4>their way or think their way through a concept they

0:25:57.840 --> 0:25:58.800
<v Speaker 4>haven't fully.

0:25:58.440 --> 0:25:59.159
<v Speaker 1>Flushed out yet.

0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:01.680
<v Speaker 3>You get to hear the wheels turning in real time.

0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:05.560
<v Speaker 4>I think that's a medium that lends itself to thoughtfulness

0:26:05.920 --> 0:26:08.320
<v Speaker 4>in a against a media backdrop where I feel like

0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:11.240
<v Speaker 4>so much of it is going the other way. Short

0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:15.840
<v Speaker 4>form videos, you know, AI slop that just feeds into

0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:19.080
<v Speaker 4>the worst stereotypes and whatever. Like, Yeah, against that backdrop,

0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:22.080
<v Speaker 4>I think audio is really where I'm finding a lot.

0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:22.600
<v Speaker 3>Of my comfort.

0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's definitely been. I mean it was

0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:28.840
<v Speaker 2>the gateway for me and t T, and I think

0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:32.400
<v Speaker 2>is where we feel like best and safest.

0:26:33.320 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 1>And I'm like, make a real I don't know every

0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:35.879
<v Speaker 1>now and.

0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Every now and then we get one together and TT

0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:41.320
<v Speaker 2>gets on me because I won't cross post it to

0:26:41.400 --> 0:26:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Dope Labs because.

0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:43.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, it might not be right.

0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:45.280
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to bring dope laus into this.

0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:48.159
<v Speaker 4>I love that you're you've both expressed that now that

0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:49.119
<v Speaker 4>this is kind of lovely.

0:26:49.160 --> 0:26:51.360
<v Speaker 3>You both expressed, oh, well.

0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:53.800
<v Speaker 4>I want to be accountable to Dope Labs and I

0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:55.760
<v Speaker 4>want to be accountable to my co host. And that's

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:58.840
<v Speaker 4>a beautiful thing that you're both kind of like really

0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:01.840
<v Speaker 4>feel a responsibility both to your audience that you have

0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.240
<v Speaker 4>built and to each other as partners in this.

0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:05.480
<v Speaker 3>That is really beautiful.

0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:08.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes, because dope Blabs can go away. That is my

0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:12.320
<v Speaker 2>friend in real life and I would not trade her

0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:14.800
<v Speaker 2>for anything, and so anything that I feel like would

0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:16.919
<v Speaker 2>be a bad look for her, I'm like, nah, not

0:27:17.000 --> 0:27:17.600
<v Speaker 2>doing it.

0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:31.679
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:34.600
<v Speaker 2>I have another question for you, Bridget, because you've talked

0:27:34.600 --> 0:27:36.800
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about like we've talked about audio being

0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:40.240
<v Speaker 2>this kind of protective space. Some people I've seen talking

0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:43.159
<v Speaker 2>about this, So I've seen people talk about building your

0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:46.880
<v Speaker 2>own email list and not really relying on these platforms.

0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:49.760
<v Speaker 2>TT and I sometimes talk about it like the democratization

0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:52.680
<v Speaker 2>of media, like it's neutral and it's open and everybody

0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:57.119
<v Speaker 2>can have access. But I think that's like just the

0:27:57.119 --> 0:28:00.120
<v Speaker 2>base layer when you paint the picture. I think there

0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:04.200
<v Speaker 2>are so many other layers to this, and I'm curious about,

0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:07.199
<v Speaker 2>like what would it look like to clean up the

0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:10.560
<v Speaker 2>Internet or to make it better? Like, and I know

0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.679
<v Speaker 2>that's a big question, but like, what are some of

0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:14.960
<v Speaker 2>the you think the first steps.

0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:17.680
<v Speaker 4>Oh, I think one of the first steps is that

0:28:17.880 --> 0:28:20.480
<v Speaker 4>Mark Zuckerberg has to resign. No, I'm kidding, uh, but

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:24.760
<v Speaker 4>you know, I really think the first step has to

0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:27.600
<v Speaker 4>be building an entire I mean this is no, this

0:28:27.680 --> 0:28:30.840
<v Speaker 4>is a tall order, but we really need a digital

0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:34.680
<v Speaker 4>media ecosystem that has things like care and empathy at

0:28:34.680 --> 0:28:37.399
<v Speaker 4>the center instead of things like scale and growth at

0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:40.520
<v Speaker 4>all costs. I think that every experience that you have

0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 4>online where you're like, oh, this used to be a

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:44.920
<v Speaker 4>fun you know, you used to be able to read

0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:47.840
<v Speaker 4>articles on your phone and then you could click on

0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:49.760
<v Speaker 4>a link and you didn't have to worry that so

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:51.720
<v Speaker 4>many things were gonna pop up that it was gonna

0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:53.640
<v Speaker 4>you just was you couldn't even read the article. It

0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 4>didn't used to always be like that. There there's some

0:28:55.840 --> 0:28:58.720
<v Speaker 4>sites were like that, but not all. Every time that

0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:02.200
<v Speaker 4>you have an experience online that seems worse than the

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:04.880
<v Speaker 4>way it used to be back in the day, somebody

0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:10.880
<v Speaker 4>made a decision to prioritize money or growth or something

0:29:11.040 --> 0:29:15.360
<v Speaker 4>like that over the experience of care or thoughtfulness or

0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:18.080
<v Speaker 4>something else. And so I think really getting back to

0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 4>what it is that we are designing our tech landscape

0:29:22.480 --> 0:29:26.800
<v Speaker 4>for and around I think is key. I also would

0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.280
<v Speaker 4>like to see, and this is something that we don't

0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:33.160
<v Speaker 4>have to wait to get systemic change on. I think

0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:37.680
<v Speaker 4>that everybody, everybody listening, all of us, could really use

0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:41.600
<v Speaker 4>rethinking our relationship with technology, right. I think for so

0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:44.520
<v Speaker 4>long we have bought into this lie that says, oh,

0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:47.040
<v Speaker 4>the Elon Musks and the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world,

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:50.760
<v Speaker 4>they are special boy geniuses that have it all figured

0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:52.720
<v Speaker 4>out in a way that none of us could ever

0:29:52.840 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 4>hope to And whatever future they are designing is going

0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:58.440
<v Speaker 4>to be a good version of the future and we

0:29:58.520 --> 0:29:59.640
<v Speaker 4>just gotta, you know.

0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:01.320
<v Speaker 3>Get on board with it.

0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:04.440
<v Speaker 4>No, no, but you were Elon Musk is not smarter

0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:05.920
<v Speaker 4>than anybody listening to this podcast.

0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.280
<v Speaker 3>That can assure you with that, right, And so I

0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:12.239
<v Speaker 3>think exactly no me framing.

0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:15.120
<v Speaker 4>This idea that that they just get to make all

0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 4>the decisions and have all the power and we have

0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:19.640
<v Speaker 4>no say because you're an expert in your experience, the

0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:22.360
<v Speaker 4>way that you feel about the technology in your life

0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:24.920
<v Speaker 4>that you've paid for, that that that impacts so much

0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:27.480
<v Speaker 4>of our day to day that is valid and that's real.

0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.680
<v Speaker 4>And you know, I think we have to make some

0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 4>shifts that shift that balance of power back to us,

0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:35.400
<v Speaker 4>because none of these people would even have jobs if

0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:37.280
<v Speaker 4>not for us, None of these people, they would be

0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:39.719
<v Speaker 4>designing technology for nobody if not for us.

0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:41.120
<v Speaker 3>And so I really want all of.

0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 4>Us to sort of take our power back a little bit,

0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:46.360
<v Speaker 4>and remember we do have some power and some agency

0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:48.240
<v Speaker 4>in this dynamic. It doesn't have to just be all

0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 4>them taking from us.

0:30:50.280 --> 0:30:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I think that that's such a great point, and

0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:54.360
<v Speaker 2>I think that was something that we talked about when

0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:56.720
<v Speaker 2>you had me on your show. There are no girls

0:30:56.760 --> 0:30:59.320
<v Speaker 2>on the internet was that you know, it's important for

0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 2>us to understand and this technology like AI and things

0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:04.680
<v Speaker 2>like that, so that we can have the power because

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 2>the more that we're just like no, no, no, I'm

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 2>not going to engage. You can choose to engage in

0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:11.800
<v Speaker 2>different ways. But it is very important to know how

0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:13.959
<v Speaker 2>these things work, so you because you'll be able to

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:17.160
<v Speaker 2>see the ways that people are trying to control or

0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:19.400
<v Speaker 2>how you know, these entities are trying to control or

0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:22.320
<v Speaker 2>take control and you know, shape things for their own

0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:25.240
<v Speaker 2>financial benefit. And so it's like power to the people,

0:31:25.320 --> 0:31:27.800
<v Speaker 2>all power to the people. You need to know how

0:31:27.840 --> 0:31:30.520
<v Speaker 2>these things work. And so all of this makes me

0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.760
<v Speaker 2>think of the like the next generation of Internet users.

0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:39.400
<v Speaker 2>How do you think we should be socializing the next

0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:43.200
<v Speaker 2>generation when it comes to the Internet, like how they

0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:46.120
<v Speaker 2>would use the Internet as a tool in their lives.

0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:49.400
<v Speaker 4>So I really appreciate this question, and I just want

0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:52.800
<v Speaker 4>to I appreciate what you all are doing, especially for

0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:55.160
<v Speaker 4>people who are so often let out of conversations about

0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 4>tech that it's I think if you hooves us all

0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:01.400
<v Speaker 4>to demystify this to you know, not be afraid of it,

0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:03.360
<v Speaker 4>even if you're somebody who is a little bit of

0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.360
<v Speaker 4>a technophobe, or you're not down with certain kinds of technology.

0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:09.880
<v Speaker 4>I want all of our people to be comfortable with it,

0:32:09.920 --> 0:32:12.160
<v Speaker 4>to understand it, to know how to use it, even

0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:14.920
<v Speaker 4>if they're like, I don't like this technology. I think

0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:17.840
<v Speaker 4>that it's so easy to just put your head in

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.320
<v Speaker 4>the sand and say, therefore, I don't need to know

0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:20.960
<v Speaker 4>anything about it.

0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:22.040
<v Speaker 3>And I think that is a mistake.

0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:26.920
<v Speaker 4>And so I'm so grateful for your voices in doing

0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:30.480
<v Speaker 4>the work of correcting that mistake for us. But when

0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:34.320
<v Speaker 4>it comes to the next generation, this might sound like

0:32:34.400 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 4>Pollyanna media literacy.

0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:39.120
<v Speaker 3>I really I worry about.

0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:44.760
<v Speaker 4>This so deeply, and hey, I'm not a young person,

0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:47.400
<v Speaker 4>and I struggle with it. I said, all my friends

0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:50.600
<v Speaker 4>this video of what I thought was bunnies jumping on

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:52.320
<v Speaker 4>a trampoline, and they all have to be like, honey,

0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:55.480
<v Speaker 4>it's AI. And I realized, I said, oh, I think

0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:57.120
<v Speaker 4>I have a blind spot when it comes to cute

0:32:57.160 --> 0:32:58.480
<v Speaker 4>animal videos that are AI.

0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:00.520
<v Speaker 3>It's like, I want to believe so badly.

0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:04.479
<v Speaker 4>So I am not immune to this, but I do

0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:09.000
<v Speaker 4>think I am of the generation that was really taught

0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 4>to not trust what you.

0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.720
<v Speaker 3>Saw online, and I think that those skills.

0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:17.000
<v Speaker 4>They're not always perfect, but I think that being socialized

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:19.760
<v Speaker 4>that way on the Internet has been tremendously helpful. That

0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:23.320
<v Speaker 4>when I see something that makes my heart beat faster

0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:26.800
<v Speaker 4>or gives me a quick, you know, feeling of you know,

0:33:27.080 --> 0:33:29.960
<v Speaker 4>anger or outrage, I've kind of trained myself to be like,

0:33:30.040 --> 0:33:33.640
<v Speaker 4>let's read the whole article first of all. Let's yes,

0:33:33.680 --> 0:33:36.320
<v Speaker 4>if I don't recognize the sources, throw it into Google.

0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:38.160
<v Speaker 3>Let's you know, let's take a minute.

0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:41.160
<v Speaker 4>Don't just rage share because it made my heart beat

0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:44.280
<v Speaker 4>a little bit faster. And I worry that we are

0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:47.240
<v Speaker 4>sort of losing that when it comes to our current

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:50.240
<v Speaker 4>Internet experience. And I don't think that that I think

0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:53.680
<v Speaker 4>that that means we were leaving behind a less thoughtful

0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:57.960
<v Speaker 4>Internet landscape for the next generation when we're all just

0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:02.800
<v Speaker 4>so susceptible to the trigger of algorithms that are financially

0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:07.400
<v Speaker 4>incentivized to keep us locked into these these very emotional

0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:08.520
<v Speaker 4>triggering loops.

0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:34:10.120 --> 0:34:13.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh, I think I've talked about it on the

0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:14.440
<v Speaker 2>show TT Knows It.

0:34:14.520 --> 0:34:15.359
<v Speaker 1>We talk about it.

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:20.840
<v Speaker 2>This is something I am constantly practicing with my parents,

0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:23.640
<v Speaker 2>with my mom, who's a little bit more on the

0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Internet than my dad, and I think it's so important

0:34:26.400 --> 0:34:28.440
<v Speaker 2>for T T and I AM, for experts like you

0:34:28.560 --> 0:34:33.040
<v Speaker 2>to share like, hey, there's no level you reach where

0:34:33.160 --> 0:34:36.560
<v Speaker 2>nothing infiltrates, like where nothing gets through and you just

0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:39.719
<v Speaker 2>are you know, little Kim dodging everything the Internet is

0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:41.480
<v Speaker 2>throwing at you. I think that doesn't happen, and I

0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 2>think it's unrealistic to think it happens. But it does

0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:47.600
<v Speaker 2>require this constant vigilance that because we've gotten so comfortable

0:34:47.600 --> 0:34:53.400
<v Speaker 2>with convenience and the perception of safety and novelty that

0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:55.040
<v Speaker 2>I think we are like I don't want to do.

0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:55.600
<v Speaker 1>This other thing.

0:34:56.080 --> 0:35:00.760
<v Speaker 4>Yes, and it does suck because we deserve it landscape

0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:03.200
<v Speaker 4>where you were not constantly being tricked and you don't

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:04.839
<v Speaker 4>have to you have your card up all the time.

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:06.040
<v Speaker 3>There are times where.

0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:10.680
<v Speaker 4>I've just woken up, I'm pre morning coffee sip, my

0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:14.400
<v Speaker 4>contact lenses are not even in yet, and I'm scrolling

0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:17.280
<v Speaker 4>social media and I shouldn't have to have my thinking

0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:20.680
<v Speaker 4>cap on twenty four seven just to engage and wad

0:35:20.760 --> 0:35:24.400
<v Speaker 4>through a media landscape. So we deserve a different media landscape,

0:35:24.400 --> 0:35:26.719
<v Speaker 4>but unfortunately we don't have that. You do sort of

0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:30.319
<v Speaker 4>have to, you know, have your thinking cap on even

0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:31.680
<v Speaker 4>when you're just casually scrolling.

0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:34.359
<v Speaker 3>And I know we're talking a lot about like.

0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:38.600
<v Speaker 4>Manipulated content or AI generated content, but also I think

0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:42.440
<v Speaker 4>for me, it's about knowing your triggers, and for me,

0:35:42.520 --> 0:35:46.480
<v Speaker 4>my triggers are it is AI generated animal videos, but

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:50.280
<v Speaker 4>it's also not AI generated content that is an inflammatory.

0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:54.680
<v Speaker 4>I used to be I used to be very invested

0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:59.759
<v Speaker 4>in real content that involved real people and sometimes real

0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:02.600
<v Speaker 4>sometimes not that would just get me angry. And then

0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.200
<v Speaker 4>one day I said, why, you know, just just because

0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:09.080
<v Speaker 4>things that relate to like gender wars stuff, Yes, I

0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:11.480
<v Speaker 4>could be locked in all day, And one day I

0:36:11.560 --> 0:36:14.360
<v Speaker 4>just said, why, Like, what is this getting me? Getting

0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:16.799
<v Speaker 4>me riled up about a situation that might even be

0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:20.480
<v Speaker 4>a skit that somebody has made to get engagement, Like,

0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:22.600
<v Speaker 4>I don't I need to be locked into.

0:36:22.360 --> 0:36:23.880
<v Speaker 3>This all the time. I don't need to be participating

0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:24.200
<v Speaker 3>into this.

0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:28.520
<v Speaker 4>And so I say that to say people should really

0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.439
<v Speaker 4>take the time to understand their triggers and their own

0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:34.000
<v Speaker 4>tension points we all have them, and then be a

0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:36.880
<v Speaker 4>little intentional about how you let that kind of content

0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:39.240
<v Speaker 4>show up in your digital diet.

0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:43.279
<v Speaker 2>Right, I'm the exact same way where it's just like

0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.719
<v Speaker 2>rage bait. No way, I'm not engaging like all of

0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:51.200
<v Speaker 2>the like these these people that are like, oh, we're

0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:53.759
<v Speaker 2>gonna put these two people at a table who have

0:36:53.960 --> 0:36:56.880
<v Speaker 2>very different opinions. I'm like, these aren't different opinions. You

0:36:56.960 --> 0:37:00.319
<v Speaker 2>have someone who is a racist. A second, this as

0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:03.680
<v Speaker 2>xenophobe talking to someone who is educated, and we should

0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 2>not be intellectualizing someone who is just a racist, full stop.

0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:12.919
<v Speaker 2>And then the other part that I reviews to ingest

0:37:13.000 --> 0:37:15.680
<v Speaker 2>is like these relationships shows something like they have really

0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:20.200
<v Speaker 2>like Love is Blind. I'm like, now I know you

0:37:20.239 --> 0:37:22.200
<v Speaker 2>all are doing this stuff on purpose because there was

0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:25.399
<v Speaker 2>uh or it Love is Blind married at first sight.

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Like I felt like traumatized by some of these seasons

0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:33.160
<v Speaker 2>because the men that were on these seasons were predatory

0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:36.359
<v Speaker 2>and misogynists and all these things like that, and I

0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:39.640
<v Speaker 2>was just like my blood pressure by the end of

0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:42.640
<v Speaker 2>each episode was so high. I was like, this is

0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:45.640
<v Speaker 2>actually like ruining me. I can't engage with these anymore.

0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:49.320
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like I see on social media like clips

0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:51.839
<v Speaker 2>going around from like the most recent Love is Blind,

0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:54.520
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, yeah, they're absolutely doing this on purpose.

0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Now I feel like you all are getting these unstable

0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:02.399
<v Speaker 2>people on this show to create good clips, and you're

0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 2>getting the clips you want, but it's to the detriment usually.

0:38:07.080 --> 0:38:08.759
<v Speaker 1>Of black and brown women.

0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:13.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that they would purposely do that to

0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.600
<v Speaker 2>a white woman. And it's I feel like it's always

0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:19.239
<v Speaker 2>a black woman who is suffering at the hands of

0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:22.720
<v Speaker 2>a black man on these shows and treating her poorly

0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:25.960
<v Speaker 2>and having all of these like really disgusting mentalities, and

0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm just like, no more.

0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:32.200
<v Speaker 3>No more, not. We don't have to sign up for that.

0:38:32.320 --> 0:38:32.560
<v Speaker 3>We don't.

0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:35.480
<v Speaker 4>We don't have to, we don't, and their due. I

0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:37.799
<v Speaker 4>could not agree with everything that you laid out. And

0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:41.200
<v Speaker 4>they're doing it for money because it is affected, yes,

0:38:41.280 --> 0:38:44.120
<v Speaker 4>and they will. They will keep doing it as long

0:38:44.160 --> 0:38:46.319
<v Speaker 4>as we can. If we keep rewarding them with our

0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:49.160
<v Speaker 4>eyeballs and our ear holes, they're gonna keep doing it,

0:38:49.239 --> 0:38:52.479
<v Speaker 4>and so we need to break that loop by retraining them.

0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:54.560
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to see this. I don't want you

0:38:54.600 --> 0:38:55.480
<v Speaker 3>to make money from this.

0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:59.319
<v Speaker 4>They're only gonna stop when it stops being financially incentivized

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:01.560
<v Speaker 4>for them to do it, and that kind of starts

0:39:01.600 --> 0:39:04.279
<v Speaker 4>on us. I really had a healthy relationship with a

0:39:04.320 --> 0:39:07.120
<v Speaker 4>lot of online spaces and doing a little bit of

0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:08.600
<v Speaker 4>work of being like, yeah, I need to just divest

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:11.800
<v Speaker 4>from this. It's only making me upset. There's I'm training

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:14.120
<v Speaker 4>my algorithms and I want to engage with content like this.

0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:17.480
<v Speaker 4>We already know that these algorithms are more likely to

0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:18.960
<v Speaker 4>show us stuff that makes.

0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:20.880
<v Speaker 3>Us angry and have big emotional reactions.

0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:23.480
<v Speaker 4>I have people in my life to make me angry

0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:27.520
<v Speaker 4>and give me big emotional reactions. Okaying Mark Zuckerberg to do,

0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:29.799
<v Speaker 4>but I don't even know him. We were talking about

0:39:29.840 --> 0:39:33.319
<v Speaker 4>the future generation one of my nephews recently. He was

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:35.520
<v Speaker 4>just taking these little digs and I said, hey, all right,

0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:36.480
<v Speaker 4>what's wrong with everybody?

0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:36.759
<v Speaker 3>Enough?

0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:39.919
<v Speaker 2>He was like, ah, we rage baited her. And I

0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:44.759
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, first of all, I'm not even mad yet.

0:39:44.760 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 2>You haven't even seen me mad. But I also was like,

0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.040
<v Speaker 2>is this what the kids are going for?

0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:49.680
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Like, is this the desire?

0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Because we're rewarding the anger in the outrage because they

0:39:54.920 --> 0:39:57.200
<v Speaker 2>want to see that. And I'm like, how do we

0:39:57.640 --> 0:39:58.600
<v Speaker 2>correct these things?

0:39:58.640 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 4>But that's what I mean it Depending on your nephew's age,

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:04.200
<v Speaker 4>that's that could be what he is seeing. I bet

0:40:04.280 --> 0:40:07.080
<v Speaker 4>I bet content like that probably is a part of

0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:09.800
<v Speaker 4>his media diet. I remember seeing some video of a

0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:13.360
<v Speaker 4>social studies teacher and she was talking to her class,

0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:15.600
<v Speaker 4>and she was trying to explain to her class that

0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:19.680
<v Speaker 4>enslaved black people during slavery did not get paid.

0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:21.160
<v Speaker 3>And the kids are like, what are you talking about?

0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:21.840
<v Speaker 3>Day got paid?

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:24.080
<v Speaker 4>And one of the kids, so none of the kids

0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:27.160
<v Speaker 4>believe her, which is already a problem, but one of

0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:30.000
<v Speaker 4>the more vocal kids is like, debate me, debate me

0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:33.560
<v Speaker 4>about it. And I really thought, this is not Yeah,

0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.839
<v Speaker 4>this is what I think young people are internalizing as

0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:42.200
<v Speaker 4>discourse is debating and whether or not you can make

0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:45.480
<v Speaker 4>somebody flustered or make somebody have an emotional reaction, whether

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:49.319
<v Speaker 4>or not the objective fact that enslaved black people were

0:40:49.320 --> 0:40:54.000
<v Speaker 4>not paid is correct or not is irrelevant. If you

0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:56.920
<v Speaker 4>feel like you can, you know, hit the broad strokes

0:40:56.960 --> 0:40:58.960
<v Speaker 4>of what winning a debate about it looks like.

0:40:59.000 --> 0:40:59.760
<v Speaker 3>And I think.

0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:03.600
<v Speaker 4>That's really a lingering thought of the culture that I'm

0:41:03.800 --> 0:41:06.480
<v Speaker 4>very concerned about, Like think about you were talking t

0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:12.400
<v Speaker 4>about these videos where it's like we put one reasonable

0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:15.319
<v Speaker 4>person at a table and surrounded or with moras, we're

0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:16.439
<v Speaker 4>gonna scream at her for an hour.

0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:19.520
<v Speaker 3>Yes, that is what passes for discourse these days.

0:41:19.560 --> 0:41:22.200
<v Speaker 4>And I really think, you know, when we talk about

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 4>things like media literacy and anti inellectualism, the way the

0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:30.480
<v Speaker 4>Internet has amplified a completely wrong version of what discourse

0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:33.200
<v Speaker 4>and debate and knowledge and being learned and being.

0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:35.520
<v Speaker 3>Curious looks like I think is a real problem.

0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, and I think part of it is because

0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:43.520
<v Speaker 2>we are now highlighting contrarians as intellectuals when they're not.

0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:45.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, just because you're saying the opposite of what

0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:48.759
<v Speaker 2>everybody else is saying, does not mean you're an intellectual.

0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Like you have not put any real thought into that.

0:41:51.760 --> 0:41:55.440
<v Speaker 2>You just saying no, and that's not how that works.

0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:57.279
<v Speaker 2>That does not make an intellectual. I need you to

0:41:57.320 --> 0:42:00.719
<v Speaker 2>come with facts, figures, and you know, thing to stand on,

0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:03.920
<v Speaker 2>not just I want to be different. It's like, okay,

0:42:03.960 --> 0:42:09.080
<v Speaker 2>we get it. You so different, But that's not an intellectual.

0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:13.480
<v Speaker 1>New position to take. It's just being amplified exactly exactly.

0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Bridget I think you've given us a lot to think about,

0:42:15.640 --> 0:42:18.800
<v Speaker 2>and we want to thank you for doing that because

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:21.319
<v Speaker 2>you've helped us move through like how we got to

0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:23.799
<v Speaker 2>where we are now. On the Internet, what the real

0:42:23.840 --> 0:42:27.360
<v Speaker 2>threats are, and a reminder that the Internet isn't shaped

0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:30.680
<v Speaker 2>without us. We with the pressure of what we choose

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:34.080
<v Speaker 2>to engage, what we choose to give our attention, we

0:42:34.120 --> 0:42:36.200
<v Speaker 2>are able to push back and say no, we don't

0:42:36.200 --> 0:42:38.319
<v Speaker 2>want this or we don't want it this way. And

0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>so I think you've shared quite a bit for us,

0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and I want to know if there are any parting

0:42:42.960 --> 0:42:45.359
<v Speaker 2>thoughts you'd like to share with our audience. So, first

0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:48.000
<v Speaker 2>of all, it has been a blast you all this

0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:50.440
<v Speaker 2>show and the platform that you've built, and it's so

0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:54.080
<v Speaker 2>important and so valuable and also so freaking fun and accessible,

0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:57.799
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just happy to be here. I'm just very

0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:01.200
<v Speaker 2>interested in talking about the inner of the Internet and

0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:04.640
<v Speaker 2>technology and social media and identity, particularly the ways that

0:43:05.000 --> 0:43:07.840
<v Speaker 2>marginalized people, people who are so often left out of

0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:10.920
<v Speaker 2>the conversation do show up in very real ways and

0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:14.520
<v Speaker 2>technology and online the sort of the bad and the good,

0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:15.480
<v Speaker 2>the you.

0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:18.759
<v Speaker 4>Know, the whole, the whole you know shebang of what

0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:22.320
<v Speaker 4>that looks like. I host a few podcasts. One is

0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 4>called There Are No Girls on the Internet. I also

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:28.200
<v Speaker 4>host Mozilla Foundation's podcast about ethics and AI called IRL Yeah,

0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.560
<v Speaker 4>I'm just really interested in how we show up online.

0:43:31.600 --> 0:43:32.880
<v Speaker 3>And I would say if there's one.

0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:37.319
<v Speaker 4>Parting word, it's that it matters how and whether we

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:38.560
<v Speaker 4>are able to show up online.

0:43:38.719 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 3>I love the Internet.

0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:42.080
<v Speaker 4>The Internet is so important to me, not just because

0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:43.920
<v Speaker 4>it's where I grew up and where I spend a

0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:46.640
<v Speaker 4>lot of my time, but because I think it is

0:43:46.800 --> 0:43:50.120
<v Speaker 4>a indicator of the health and well being of so

0:43:50.239 --> 0:43:52.960
<v Speaker 4>many things, of our democracy, of our civic life, our

0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:56.279
<v Speaker 4>civic world. And so if everybody is not able to

0:43:56.320 --> 0:44:00.320
<v Speaker 4>show up equitably on our online platforms and tech landscape,

0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:04.400
<v Speaker 4>we will never have the equitable representative democracy that we

0:44:04.480 --> 0:44:07.080
<v Speaker 4>all deserve. And so care about the internet. Be a

0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:09.400
<v Speaker 4>good steward of the Internet. Show up on the Internet.

0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:18.760
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, you could check out my podcast if that resonates.

0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:24.720
<v Speaker 2>You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs.

0:44:24.760 --> 0:44:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Podcast CT is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore

0:44:28.719 --> 0:44:32.360
<v Speaker 2>t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z said so.

0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Dope Labs is a production of Lmanada Media.

0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is

0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Issara Asevez. Dope Labs is sound, designed, edited and mixed

0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:47.560
<v Speaker 2>by James Farber. Limanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and

0:44:47.600 --> 0:44:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Production is Jackie dan Singer. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast

0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:53.120
<v Speaker 2>is Katrina Norvil.

0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:55.160
<v Speaker 1>Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.

0:44:55.920 --> 0:44:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and ol

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Like suji Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope

0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Labs is executive produced by us T T Show, Dia

0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:09.600
<v Speaker 2>and Zakiah Watki