Speaker 1: What was your AOL instant messenger name? Do you remember it?
Speaker 2: My closest friend at the time, her name was Tiffany Lindsay.
Speaker 2: Shout out to her, and she gave me the nickname Teter,
Speaker 2: and so my screen name back then was Teeter Totter
Speaker 2: zero five. For the year that I graduated high school?
Speaker 2: What was the obsession with the year that we graduated
Speaker 2: high We were obsessed. I'm t T and I'm Zakiah
Speaker 2: And this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a
Speaker 2: weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and
Speaker 2: a healthy dose of friendship. We've gone from anonymous screen
Speaker 2: names to streaming our lives in four K. Every gadget
Speaker 2: from our phones to our refrigerators are online.
Speaker 3: But do we really know what that means? No, we don't.
Speaker 2: That's the problem, and I think that's exactly what this
Speaker 2: lab is all about.
Speaker 1: So let's start with what we do know.
Speaker 2: What I know is we share almost everything online. And
Speaker 2: when I say we, I mean the collective we Most
Speaker 2: people that I know are putting a lot of their
Speaker 2: lives on the Internet. I think the other thing we know,
Speaker 2: and if you don't know, you are increasingly learning is
Speaker 2: that these smart devices are always listening. I'll be the
Speaker 2: first to say. Before I used to be like, who
Speaker 2: has time to do extra manufacturing, Like nobody's including a
Speaker 2: microphone and a device that's not marketed as having a
Speaker 2: microphone or a speaker. But I'm not so sure about that, right.
Speaker 2: And with that in mind, and knowing that the Internet
Speaker 2: connects all of us, it also exposes us, you know,
Speaker 2: it would become very vulnerable because of it. Yes, and
Speaker 2: that's not even just what you share. That feels like
Speaker 2: where you've been, like a physical history, location services from
Speaker 2: your phone. Yeah, people know where you are. Somebody knows
Speaker 2: where you are, somebody Oh yeah, but t T what.
Speaker 1: Do we want to know?
Speaker 2: I want to know how we went from dial up
Speaker 2: innocence to total surveillance, because I mean, that's within our lifetime, Zee,
Speaker 2: like to go from dial up internet to now it's
Speaker 2: like pervasive. It's ubiquitous to have all of these like
Speaker 2: location services and things listening to you, and your emails
Speaker 2: are sending you emails of things that you searched on
Speaker 2: the Internet, and.
Speaker 3: It's just wild, like how did we get there? And
Speaker 3: why did it happen so fast?
Speaker 2: And now that we're there and we know that some
Speaker 2: of these platforms are breaking our trusts and putting cookies
Speaker 2: on our phone and tracking what you do. Why do
Speaker 2: we still trust the platforms that are doing that? Why
Speaker 2: do we still use them? And now it's starting to
Speaker 2: shift to like it just being par for the core,
Speaker 2: I guess. And so with that thinking about that, I'm like,
Speaker 2: is privacy now just a.
Speaker 1: Thing of the past? Like is it a nostalgic thing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh remember the good old days, like
Speaker 2: when nobody could figure out where you lived by just
Speaker 2: doing a simple Google search, or people couldn't find out
Speaker 2: where you worked, Like people couldn't find pictures of you
Speaker 2: unless you know, you put them out there, Like it's
Speaker 2: just wild. And you're talking about privacy being nostalgic, girl,
Speaker 2: what about fun on the internet?
Speaker 1: Nostalgic?
Speaker 2: The Internet is not fun no more. I don't like it.
Speaker 2: It just feels everything is so mean, judgmental, like fake.
Speaker 2: Everybody's just showing like the good stuff, Like I'm just like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, show me your messy bedside table. That's
Speaker 2: my favorite thing to see.
Speaker 1: Yep. To answer all of.
Speaker 2: Our burning questions about the Internet, where it used to be,
Speaker 2: how it got to how it is and what we
Speaker 2: can do about it. We're talking to Bridget Time, host
Speaker 2: of There Are No Girls on the Internet. She's a
Speaker 2: digital activist, podcaster, and professional Internet explainer. You can find
Speaker 2: her on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.
Speaker 3: The Bridget.
Speaker 2: We want to start out with reflecting just how much
Speaker 2: the Internet has changed. It's gone from the scary thing
Speaker 2: where your parents said don't talk to strangers to all
Speaker 2: of us sharing everything.
Speaker 3: Back in the.
Speaker 4: Day, if you met on a dating app or an
Speaker 4: online dating site, if there was a stigma to it.
Speaker 4: I remember a woman in my school I met her
Speaker 4: husband on an online dating like ooh scandal. And now
Speaker 4: that's how the majority of people meet their partners.
Speaker 2: Mm hm, that's how majority people meet are meeting friends.
Speaker 2: These days, people are meeting their friends online and then
Speaker 2: meeting up and saying, hey, I'm meeting irl in real life,
Speaker 2: and it's just wild. I mean, I remember back in
Speaker 2: the day putting your card information into anything online. It
Speaker 2: was just like, might as well just broadcast it to
Speaker 2: everybody in the world because it just didn't feel safe.
Speaker 2: And now I'm like, if my card information is not
Speaker 2: stored on my phone and I'm able to just tap
Speaker 2: tap use my face by the thing I am not.
Speaker 4: What is the point of living in a surveillance state
Speaker 4: if I still have to by hand type in my
Speaker 4: credit card information every single time.
Speaker 2: There has to be perks. There has to be perks
Speaker 2: to living in the surveillance state. I always say it.
Speaker 1: Is I think we're all hostage to convenience.
Speaker 2: Like I think convenience is what has eroded some of
Speaker 2: the long arm that we had to keep us kind
Speaker 2: of distant from the Internet. And it feels like convenience
Speaker 2: is like the carrot that they dangled in Now we're
Speaker 2: all just all in. Yeah, And I don't want to
Speaker 2: act like I'm immune to it or above it, because
Speaker 2: only recently that I start really doing a deep dive
Speaker 2: into the ways that I have let the convenience of things.
Speaker 3: Like Uber Eats, you know, things like.
Speaker 4: Amazon really shape and rebuild my life in ways I
Speaker 4: hadn't even ever really noticed or thought about. And I've
Speaker 4: been trying to make intentional efforts to not just resist
Speaker 4: that but just be more aware of it. But I
Speaker 4: do think this grip that novelty and convenience has on
Speaker 4: us is directly responsible to where we are when it
Speaker 4: comes to our current online and social media landscape.
Speaker 3: It really has us in a choke hold.
Speaker 2: It's such a good point. I mean, I think the
Speaker 2: amount of trust that we put into the Internet, the cloud,
Speaker 2: all those things is really mind boggling, because I mean
Speaker 2: that's why when people are like, oh, I don't want
Speaker 2: them to take my picture here, because I'm like, hey, yeah,
Speaker 2: they already have it. I hate to hate to break
Speaker 2: the news too, they already have. They're like, oh you
Speaker 2: don't you can opt out of those pictures at TSA.
Speaker 2: Hey you have a driver's license. TSA has your photo,
Speaker 2: whether it's a live photo with your hair up in
Speaker 2: a ponytail on top of your head and crusting your
Speaker 2: eyes or your license either or they have your photo.
Speaker 2: So like we have to stop convincing ourselves that we
Speaker 2: aren't living in a surveillance state. And so, I mean,
Speaker 2: it just kind of is what it is.
Speaker 4: I have these conversations with my uncles and cousins where
Speaker 4: they're like, oh, don't do X y Z. That's how
Speaker 4: they get you. And I'm like, well, I think they
Speaker 4: have You're on social media.
Speaker 1: I think they have you.
Speaker 4: I don't think I think that ship has sailed. This
Speaker 4: is sort of what I always preach on the show.
Speaker 4: I completely am aligned with you that like they've got us.
Speaker 4: But I think it also is easy to sort of
Speaker 4: let that very true attitude be like, oh.
Speaker 3: Well, then there's no need.
Speaker 4: For digital security practices. It you have to find a
Speaker 4: balance between kind of the reality that we live in
Speaker 4: this surveillance state and not falling into like digital nihilisms,
Speaker 4: like so it doesn't matter, there's no need to try
Speaker 4: to be secure, there's no need for two vector authentication,
Speaker 4: there's no need to take common sense you know, free
Speaker 4: digital security practices actually right now.
Speaker 3: But it is. It is a very weird balance.
Speaker 4: And I just think you're so right that I would
Speaker 4: never have thought that we and I'm including myself very
Speaker 4: much in this, would give up so much for things
Speaker 4: like convenience and novelty.
Speaker 3: And I think the question we should be asking the
Speaker 3: question of.
Speaker 4: Is the convenience that we're getting back is it worth
Speaker 4: those trade offs?
Speaker 3: Because I think the answer is not always hard.
Speaker 1: Yes, right.
Speaker 2: I think this is so interesting because we had these
Speaker 2: two women on our show. They talked about science denial,
Speaker 2: and they talked about it not being that you blanket
Speaker 2: deny science, but that you cafeteria style pick what you want.
Speaker 2: I'm doing that with my digital privacy and trust. Like
Speaker 2: t T and I have a difference. I'm gonna say
Speaker 2: TT is present except on all those cookies.
Speaker 1: Ooh, t T. I just don't want to wait.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I was like, if it's taking me from Instagram,
Speaker 2: I'm like, ooh, that bag looks so good, and I
Speaker 2: hit open and then it's like, do you accept I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: except I want to see the bag. I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2: But there's something recently that you posted, Bridget that made
Speaker 2: me think about something I am doing. I'm against a
Speaker 2: ring doorbell camera, but I have a camera in my
Speaker 2: kitchen which points to like my back door. Now, I know,
Speaker 2: TT shocking, right, Like I'm saying no to the cookies,
Speaker 2: but that camera is connected to Wi Fi, you know.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, there's so many like people have refrigerators
Speaker 2: and baby monitors and all these things that connect to
Speaker 2: Wi Fi, and I am not in the position to
Speaker 2: be protecting these devices and what they're connected to. And
Speaker 2: why does my thumbstat at my house have a speaker
Speaker 2: on it? I just found that on accident the other
Speaker 2: day trying to connect my Apple TV to an output,
Speaker 2: and I was like, you don't know what's going on.
Speaker 3: Girl.
Speaker 2: You have these devices in here, but you just talked
Speaker 2: about Wendy on Real housewile Kiamic. Oh yeah, I want
Speaker 2: you to give a some give our audience a rundown
Speaker 2: of what's happening and how these devices can betray you.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so thank you for even asking me
Speaker 2: this question, because this is just such a cross section
Speaker 2: of my specific interest. So, doctor Wendyosefo, she is one
Speaker 2: of the stars the Real Housewives of Potomac, and I guess,
Speaker 2: like if I were to classify her on like a
Speaker 2: type on the show, she is educated.
Speaker 3: She will never let you forget that she has four degrees.
Speaker 3: She's a PhD. Like she's a smart cookie.
Speaker 4: And her and her husband were both arrested because police
Speaker 4: say they had staged a burglary in their home while
Speaker 4: they were on vacation out of the country, and then
Speaker 4: they said, oh, all of these luxury goods were stolen.
Speaker 4: They filed those goods with their insurance. They were attempting to,
Speaker 4: according to police, scam their various insurance companies almost for
Speaker 4: a half a million dollars, so like a pretty you know,
Speaker 4: this is.
Speaker 1: A big chunk.
Speaker 4: We're talking about felony level charges here.
Speaker 3: And when I heard this, I was shook.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys watched the show, but
Speaker 4: of all the people probably across the Bravo universe, of
Speaker 4: the shows I watched, I can't think of somebody that
Speaker 4: I was least expecting this kind of news from. Then,
Speaker 4: when there are a million other people, I would have thought, oh, well,
Speaker 4: she probably she might go to jail, she might get arrested.
Speaker 4: Wendy is not high on that list. So I poured
Speaker 4: through the police report.
Speaker 3: I was like, I need to know. I want some information.
Speaker 4: And when I got to the point of the police
Speaker 4: report where they said, oh, well, they had a ring
Speaker 4: camera that was turned on that they were monitoring remotely
Speaker 4: while they were on vacation in Jamaica, and that ring
Speaker 4: camera showed Amazon delivery drivers coming up to their house
Speaker 4: dropping off packages and leaving, but nobody entering. And further,
Speaker 4: they had an ADYT security system that was also turned
Speaker 4: on while they were on vacation, supposedly getting robbed, that
Speaker 4: had motion detectors that did not log any motion from
Speaker 4: within their home at the time when they said they
Speaker 4: were being robbed.
Speaker 3: So I Wendy's a smart.
Speaker 4: Cookie, but I don't know that in our current sort
Speaker 4: of surveillance state that she might have known. Oh, these
Speaker 4: systems that I voluntarily put in my home aren't just
Speaker 4: recording bad guys or suspicious characters whatever. They're recording me,
Speaker 4: and you know, innocidential proven guilty. I don't know what
Speaker 4: actually happened there. We'll see, but it just goes to
Speaker 4: show that I don't think people really understand these are
Speaker 4: surveillance devices, and oftentimes ring camera especially, they can share
Speaker 4: information with police without a warrant and without your consent.
Speaker 3: I believe ADT don't quote me in this.
Speaker 4: I believe ADT will share information with police if there
Speaker 4: is an act of investigation. So I don't think that
Speaker 4: police need a warrant, But if the police ask, they're
Speaker 4: not necessarily protecting your privacy. And I just think with
Speaker 4: things like ring camera, I think there is an attitude
Speaker 4: that you get the camera in your house so that
Speaker 4: you surveil others, and you don't understand necessarily that like, well,
Speaker 4: that also means you are the one being surveilled and
Speaker 4: you brought this on yourself.
Speaker 3: And so with Wendy, to me, it does kind of.
Speaker 4: Seem like she paid to voluntarily put an OP in
Speaker 4: her home, and if she was indeed doing scams and crimes,
Speaker 4: might not be the best thing to do. And I
Speaker 4: just don't But I think it illustrates that we're not
Speaker 4: necessarily thinking about technology like this in that way, Like
Speaker 4: when you buy it, you think this is for me
Speaker 4: to surveil others. Certainly I will not be the surveiled,
Speaker 4: And yeah, in a surveillance siled.
Speaker 2: I could say the same thing for every device that
Speaker 2: we have, like I mean even your location services on
Speaker 2: your phone, that data is being collected. That's the reason
Speaker 2: why when someone goes missing, they're like find their cell phone,
Speaker 2: which towers isn't pinging off of and things like that.
Speaker 2: So if every device is collecting data, who is that
Speaker 2: data really for the company or law enforcement, or for
Speaker 2: us or all three?
Speaker 4: And it goes back to what you were saying about
Speaker 4: your the various items that you have in your home.
Speaker 4: I think people don't realize how hard it is to
Speaker 4: find common household electronics that do not have some sort
Speaker 4: of recording device. In them, and you know your fridge,
Speaker 4: your ice maker, your toaster, like the way that everything
Speaker 4: is smart now. I recently wanted to buy fitness trackers
Speaker 4: and I had to really do a lot of research
Speaker 4: to find one that was quote dumb enough for me,
Speaker 4: because yeah, I want to log my steps and get
Speaker 4: some information about my sleep. I don't want my location
Speaker 4: being tracked everywhere. I don't want my menstrual cycles being
Speaker 4: information at Amazon collects about me. Some of this stuff
Speaker 4: is intimate, and I actually don't really consent. There's actually
Speaker 4: a really great gift guide that Mozilla Foundation put out
Speaker 4: called the Privacy Not Included Guide, where you can look
Speaker 4: at different consumer tech and say, like, okay, which one
Speaker 4: is surveilling me the most and which one is revealing
Speaker 4: me the least, just so that you can make informed
Speaker 4: decisions about how the stuff fits in with your life.
Speaker 2: I use AT and T and I think it really
Speaker 2: clicked for me. When there's a thing you can log
Speaker 2: in and see how many devices are trying to connect
Speaker 2: to the WiFi.
Speaker 1: I was like, what are the thirty seven items? What
Speaker 1: are they?
Speaker 3: What are they? It is that?
Speaker 1: Man? It was blowing my mind.
Speaker 2: You got people in there it's me and the devices.
Speaker 2: And I was like, you have to turn this stuff off.
Speaker 2: Another thing that I have a feeling about. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: bridget tell me if I'm tripping. Sometimes I turn off
Speaker 2: Wi Fi while I'm out, and same thing for Bluetooth,
Speaker 2: and then i feel like I look again and the
Speaker 2: WiFi is back on, and I'm like, I know, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel like I have to actively monitor
Speaker 2: my device to keep myself safe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Am I making that up? Or is that nothing?
Speaker 4: I think our devices will default to those kinds of settings,
Speaker 4: and even if you tell it, hey, I don't really
Speaker 4: want this, it will always go back to that default
Speaker 4: you're not trip. And I actually just learned this recently.
Speaker 4: It's gonna be a year or two ago. I was
Speaker 4: reading something where someone said, oh, you shouldn't connect to
Speaker 4: public Wi Fi if you go to an airport or something.
Speaker 3: Because that's that's how they get you. And I said, oh,
Speaker 3: that's not true. That's just a lie. I looked into it.
Speaker 3: It's not it's not it's not a lie.
Speaker 2: Wow, I use a personal hotspot. I was trying to
Speaker 2: trust a Delta lounge and I said, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know the way they're trying to treat me
Speaker 2: with these ticket categories. They can't be trusted anymore either.
Speaker 1: But those those snacks are.
Speaker 3: Very fa Yeah.
Speaker 4: I do a lot of personal hotspotting too, because there
Speaker 4: are these things that you think of as commonplace or
Speaker 4: that you think of as well. They wouldn't be offering
Speaker 4: this amenity if it was if there was a risk
Speaker 4: to me. And that's not always true, but even that
Speaker 4: line of thinking, I think.
Speaker 3: Exposes how easy it is to make.
Speaker 4: Decisions that you don't you don't even really think about it,
Speaker 4: where you're trading on these risks and benefits to you.
Speaker 4: And yeah, I think just it behooves us to have
Speaker 4: more intentional conversations about these things as as more of
Speaker 4: our devices become smart and Wi Fi enabled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, you had a smart toilet, is gonna
Speaker 2: be telling all your poos?
Speaker 1: Well, she was not happy last night.
Speaker 2: But you've talked about what it's like to be a
Speaker 2: black woman who lives online, So we talked about surveillance
Speaker 2: and so adding that additional layer of being a black woman.
Speaker 2: What kind of risks do you feel like comes with
Speaker 2: that kind of Oh my.
Speaker 4: Gosh, I mean, if you would have asked me this
Speaker 4: question maybe two years ago, I would have had a
Speaker 4: lot to say.
Speaker 3: Right, I would have said, Oh, it's you know, the.
Speaker 4: Idea of being visible online, making your career online, being
Speaker 4: somebody who shows up on the internet as a black
Speaker 4: woman with opinions, with things to say.
Speaker 3: You know, it can be tough but also can be good.
Speaker 4: You know, there's community there, there's joy there, there is
Speaker 4: resistance there. There is so much connection there. But it's
Speaker 4: a double edged sword where there's also a tax. There's
Speaker 4: also you know, very disingenuous people where no matter what
Speaker 4: you say, there's gonna be somebody waiting in the wings
Speaker 4: to take it out of context. That is what I
Speaker 4: would have said probably two years ago. Today in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty five, if I'm being honest, I barely show up
Speaker 4: online anymore.
Speaker 3: I just think that it's I don't know. I don't
Speaker 3: want to sound.
Speaker 4: Like a like a doom and gloomer, because I love
Speaker 4: the Internet and I'm forever and optimist about technology and
Speaker 4: the Internet and all of those things. Those things are
Speaker 4: so important to me. But I think it started when
Speaker 4: Elon Musk bought Twitter and I was just sort of
Speaker 4: really mourning the loss of that platform, because that was
Speaker 4: an important platform for me.
Speaker 3: If you were a part of og Black Twitter.
Speaker 4: You remember what it felt like to be there and
Speaker 4: like the genuine joy and connection that was to be
Speaker 4: found there. I was like, Oh, I know it's gonna
Speaker 4: be trash, but let me just stick around and see
Speaker 4: what this platform is like. And it was just it
Speaker 4: felt like day by day, little by little being chipped away.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't just the over the top races and
Speaker 4: the amplification of.
Speaker 3: Conspiracy theories and all of that.
Speaker 4: It was a lot of that, but also it felt
Speaker 4: like wading through spam much more often. And this has
Speaker 4: got to say that the early days of Twitter were great,
Speaker 4: because I had a lot of problems with those days
Speaker 4: as well. But after a while I just thought, what
Speaker 4: am I getting out of this? Like it is not
Speaker 4: bringing me any kind of joy to sign on here
Speaker 4: day after day. And I do think that the decisions
Speaker 4: that Elon Musk made about Twitter, I think for verberated
Speaker 4: across a lot of social media platforms, and so I
Speaker 4: think it wasn't just Twitter. I think a lot of
Speaker 4: platforms where I used to spend a lot of time
Speaker 4: became a lot less pleasant and a lot less. I
Speaker 4: guess worth it for me to show up. And so yeah,
Speaker 4: these days, I hate to say it, I am not
Speaker 4: really showing up online a ton because there's not There's
Speaker 4: just not a lot of places that feel like genuine
Speaker 4: connection and joy anymore. I don't know where do you
Speaker 4: all fall on this.
Speaker 3: I'm curious.
Speaker 2: I agree with you, like so, I think one of
Speaker 2: the things that's really hard is I have those same sentiments.
Speaker 2: But like, even for us, we don't show up with
Speaker 2: a video podcast right, we are doing audio only. We
Speaker 2: don't do as much engagement as we used to because
Speaker 2: you get the trolls like I love the potential like you,
Speaker 2: I'm always like, oh, it could be so wonderful.
Speaker 1: We could do a live we could have these things.
Speaker 2: We could talk to you know, our friends, our dope
Speaker 2: labs friends, we could do all these things. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't know how much more fallen off on the
Speaker 2: internet platforms I can take.
Speaker 1: When Google Reader died, I was sick.
Speaker 2: Okay, then there was then there was Twitter, and then
Speaker 2: I tried to get on SPIL.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you tried spill. I did try it.
Speaker 2: I couldn't really find my my group there. I did
Speaker 2: find some Pokemon players there, which is also an op.
Speaker 2: You should not be playing Pokemon Go. It's so monitoring
Speaker 2: your location and do it. I had to stop playing that.
Speaker 2: But you need all that for that charge yard I do,
Speaker 2: and so I had to give I had to give
Speaker 2: it up.
Speaker 1: I had to quit Cult Turkey.
Speaker 2: But I also found like even on Instagram, the engagement
Speaker 2: was just different and it felt like you had to
Speaker 2: be like selling something all the time and not.
Speaker 1: Just putting something super state together.
Speaker 2: And I was like, I don't even I just found
Speaker 2: myself in the stories having a good old time. And
Speaker 2: even after a while that became like and so I
Speaker 2: feel like I kind of check in a little bit
Speaker 2: and then I'm out of their threads. It was good
Speaker 2: at first, Now it's going the way of Twitter with
Speaker 2: people reposting the same thing over and over again. And
Speaker 2: then even Pinterest, I was like, at least I can
Speaker 2: look at pretty pictures. Now it's all ads and all
Speaker 2: ai as well. Yes, and so I'm like, what's left?
Speaker 2: I guess substack, I just keep reading people substancs. I
Speaker 2: don't know, yes, honestly, like that's how I feel too.
Speaker 2: I was just talking to one of my sisters about this. Yesterday,
Speaker 2: I was like Instagram like all the same feelings about Twitter.
Speaker 2: Like once Twitter changed, I was like, this is no
Speaker 2: longer a place for me. So I just I don't
Speaker 2: even bother Instagram. It's to a point where AI where
Speaker 2: I'm I feel like I'm an old Auntie where I'm like, Wow,
Speaker 2: this is amazing. And then my nephew who's eight, is
Speaker 2: like Auntie TT that's AI, and I'm like.
Speaker 3: Oh, are you sure?
Speaker 2: I'm never really sure, Like the AI is getting so
Speaker 2: good that I really am falling victim to and I'm
Speaker 2: just like this isn't fun, Like I want to see
Speaker 2: like real stuff, And it's just I agree with Zakia,
Speaker 2: where it's like the more you put on there, the
Speaker 2: more it's like they're just people who are so emboldened
Speaker 2: by the anonymity of social media that it kind of
Speaker 2: just like tainted the experience a lot. Where it's just
Speaker 2: like if you make an account that's purely just theatroll,
Speaker 2: like come on, like it's just it's just makes the
Speaker 2: whole experience just feel different. Where it's like now I'm overthinking.
Speaker 2: Now I'm like, okay, should I put this? What if
Speaker 2: somebody says this, and I don't want to feel like that,
Speaker 2: and especially when it's something that's you know, tied to
Speaker 2: something that I feel like is way bigger than me,
Speaker 2: like Dope Labs and the keys involved. I'm like, I
Speaker 2: really have to think about it because we're attached to
Speaker 2: this thing, and so we're trying to keep this a
Speaker 2: safe space for not just us, Like I'm thinking about
Speaker 2: the other people who really enjoy our show. I don't
Speaker 2: want them to be subject to, you know, all these
Speaker 2: different things, and so, you know, but I also feel
Speaker 2: like if I do remove myself too much, then the
Speaker 2: trolls are right, you know what I mean. Like, I
Speaker 2: feel like we got to keep showing up, and it's
Speaker 2: just a matter of figuring out ways that we can
Speaker 2: show up in a way that also we can practice
Speaker 2: some self preservation so that we can find the spaces
Speaker 2: where you know, we fit. And it's not like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm just throwing myself to the wolves and things like that,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: This is exactly the kind of balance I'm trying to find.
Speaker 4: And I think to your point about not wanting to
Speaker 4: let the trolls and bad actors and all those folks
Speaker 4: and voices win. People love talking about free speech on
Speaker 4: social media platforms, but when someone stops showing up and
Speaker 4: stops using their voice and really just goes quiet on
Speaker 4: these platforms because of these other voices, that is.
Speaker 3: Also a free speech issue.
Speaker 4: When you feel like you can't use these platforms effectively
Speaker 4: or equitably to build a platform for yourself or put
Speaker 4: your voice out there, or you know, engage with your
Speaker 4: community or whatever you're trying to do.
Speaker 3: That is also a free speech issue.
Speaker 4: But one kind of saving grace that I have really
Speaker 4: been kind of reconnecting with lately against the backdrop of
Speaker 4: all of this, that we all have in common is
Speaker 4: the form of audio. I have said spicy stuff on
Speaker 4: the podcast, stuff that if I put it in a
Speaker 4: tweet or a thread post, I would have to be
Speaker 4: back and forth all day. I think there is something
Speaker 4: about long form audio content where if somebody wants to
Speaker 4: take my words out of content text or misconstrue them,
Speaker 4: or you know they're committed to misunderstanding me, they have
Speaker 4: to listen to an hour long podcast to do that.
Speaker 3: The barrier is quite high. So you gotta you gotta
Speaker 3: really want to do.
Speaker 1: That to me.
Speaker 4: You got to really, I was just talking to you
Speaker 4: a friend of mine that makes podcasts, and his podcast
Speaker 4: is quite big, it's one of the biggest podcasts.
Speaker 1: In the world.
Speaker 4: And he said that, you know, he doesn't weirdly, he
Speaker 4: doesn't really get a lot of trolls and stuff because.
Speaker 3: They're not out here doing short form.
Speaker 4: They're not on Twitter really or blue Sky really, they're
Speaker 4: not in that sort of live streamer debate kind of circle.
Speaker 3: And that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, audio can be kind of protective, and I think
Speaker 4: it's because it's a medium that is so you can
Speaker 4: be authentic there. You can explain what you need to
Speaker 4: say in your own words. One of my favorite things
Speaker 4: about listening to audio content is listening to somebody work
Speaker 4: their way or think their way through a concept they
Speaker 4: haven't fully.
Speaker 1: Flushed out yet.
Speaker 3: You get to hear the wheels turning in real time.
Speaker 4: I think that's a medium that lends itself to thoughtfulness
Speaker 4: in a against a media backdrop where I feel like
Speaker 4: so much of it is going the other way. Short
Speaker 4: form videos, you know, AI slop that just feeds into
Speaker 4: the worst stereotypes and whatever. Like, Yeah, against that backdrop,
Speaker 4: I think audio is really where I'm finding a lot.
Speaker 3: Of my comfort.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's definitely been. I mean it was
Speaker 2: the gateway for me and t T, and I think
Speaker 2: is where we feel like best and safest.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, make a real I don't know every
Speaker 1: now and.
Speaker 2: Every now and then we get one together and TT
Speaker 2: gets on me because I won't cross post it to
Speaker 2: Dope Labs because.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it might not be right.
Speaker 3: I don't want to bring dope laus into this.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I love that you're you've both expressed that now that
Speaker 4: this is kind of lovely.
Speaker 3: You both expressed, oh, well.
Speaker 4: I want to be accountable to Dope Labs and I
Speaker 4: want to be accountable to my co host. And that's
Speaker 4: a beautiful thing that you're both kind of like really
Speaker 4: feel a responsibility both to your audience that you have
Speaker 4: built and to each other as partners in this.
Speaker 3: That is really beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yes, because dope Blabs can go away. That is my
Speaker 2: friend in real life and I would not trade her
Speaker 2: for anything, and so anything that I feel like would
Speaker 2: be a bad look for her, I'm like, nah, not
Speaker 2: doing it.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I have another question for you, Bridget, because you've talked
Speaker 2: a little bit about like we've talked about audio being
Speaker 2: this kind of protective space. Some people I've seen talking
Speaker 2: about this, So I've seen people talk about building your
Speaker 2: own email list and not really relying on these platforms.
Speaker 2: TT and I sometimes talk about it like the democratization
Speaker 2: of media, like it's neutral and it's open and everybody
Speaker 2: can have access. But I think that's like just the
Speaker 2: base layer when you paint the picture. I think there
Speaker 2: are so many other layers to this, and I'm curious about,
Speaker 2: like what would it look like to clean up the
Speaker 2: Internet or to make it better? Like, and I know
Speaker 2: that's a big question, but like, what are some of
Speaker 2: the you think the first steps.
Speaker 4: Oh, I think one of the first steps is that
Speaker 4: Mark Zuckerberg has to resign. No, I'm kidding, uh, but
Speaker 4: you know, I really think the first step has to
Speaker 4: be building an entire I mean this is no, this
Speaker 4: is a tall order, but we really need a digital
Speaker 4: media ecosystem that has things like care and empathy at
Speaker 4: the center instead of things like scale and growth at
Speaker 4: all costs. I think that every experience that you have
Speaker 4: online where you're like, oh, this used to be a
Speaker 4: fun you know, you used to be able to read
Speaker 4: articles on your phone and then you could click on
Speaker 4: a link and you didn't have to worry that so
Speaker 4: many things were gonna pop up that it was gonna
Speaker 4: you just was you couldn't even read the article. It
Speaker 4: didn't used to always be like that. There there's some
Speaker 4: sites were like that, but not all. Every time that
Speaker 4: you have an experience online that seems worse than the
Speaker 4: way it used to be back in the day, somebody
Speaker 4: made a decision to prioritize money or growth or something
Speaker 4: like that over the experience of care or thoughtfulness or
Speaker 4: something else. And so I think really getting back to
Speaker 4: what it is that we are designing our tech landscape
Speaker 4: for and around I think is key. I also would
Speaker 4: like to see, and this is something that we don't
Speaker 4: have to wait to get systemic change on. I think
Speaker 4: that everybody, everybody listening, all of us, could really use
Speaker 4: rethinking our relationship with technology, right. I think for so
Speaker 4: long we have bought into this lie that says, oh,
Speaker 4: the Elon Musks and the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world,
Speaker 4: they are special boy geniuses that have it all figured
Speaker 4: out in a way that none of us could ever
Speaker 4: hope to And whatever future they are designing is going
Speaker 4: to be a good version of the future and we
Speaker 4: just gotta, you know.
Speaker 3: Get on board with it.
Speaker 4: No, no, but you were Elon Musk is not smarter
Speaker 4: than anybody listening to this podcast.
Speaker 3: That can assure you with that, right, And so I
Speaker 3: think exactly no me framing.
Speaker 4: This idea that that they just get to make all
Speaker 4: the decisions and have all the power and we have
Speaker 4: no say because you're an expert in your experience, the
Speaker 4: way that you feel about the technology in your life
Speaker 4: that you've paid for, that that that impacts so much
Speaker 4: of our day to day that is valid and that's real.
Speaker 4: And you know, I think we have to make some
Speaker 4: shifts that shift that balance of power back to us,
Speaker 4: because none of these people would even have jobs if
Speaker 4: not for us, None of these people, they would be
Speaker 4: designing technology for nobody if not for us.
Speaker 3: And so I really want all of.
Speaker 4: Us to sort of take our power back a little bit,
Speaker 4: and remember we do have some power and some agency
Speaker 4: in this dynamic. It doesn't have to just be all
Speaker 4: them taking from us.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that that's such a great point, and
Speaker 2: I think that was something that we talked about when
Speaker 2: you had me on your show. There are no girls
Speaker 2: on the internet was that you know, it's important for
Speaker 2: us to understand and this technology like AI and things
Speaker 2: like that, so that we can have the power because
Speaker 2: the more that we're just like no, no, no, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to engage. You can choose to engage in
Speaker 2: different ways. But it is very important to know how
Speaker 2: these things work, so you because you'll be able to
Speaker 2: see the ways that people are trying to control or
Speaker 2: how you know, these entities are trying to control or
Speaker 2: take control and you know, shape things for their own
Speaker 2: financial benefit. And so it's like power to the people,
Speaker 2: all power to the people. You need to know how
Speaker 2: these things work. And so all of this makes me
Speaker 2: think of the like the next generation of Internet users.
Speaker 2: How do you think we should be socializing the next
Speaker 2: generation when it comes to the Internet, like how they
Speaker 2: would use the Internet as a tool in their lives.
Speaker 4: So I really appreciate this question, and I just want
Speaker 4: to I appreciate what you all are doing, especially for
Speaker 4: people who are so often let out of conversations about
Speaker 4: tech that it's I think if you hooves us all
Speaker 4: to demystify this to you know, not be afraid of it,
Speaker 4: even if you're somebody who is a little bit of
Speaker 4: a technophobe, or you're not down with certain kinds of technology.
Speaker 4: I want all of our people to be comfortable with it,
Speaker 4: to understand it, to know how to use it, even
Speaker 4: if they're like, I don't like this technology. I think
Speaker 4: that it's so easy to just put your head in
Speaker 4: the sand and say, therefore, I don't need to know
Speaker 4: anything about it.
Speaker 3: And I think that is a mistake.
Speaker 4: And so I'm so grateful for your voices in doing
Speaker 4: the work of correcting that mistake for us. But when
Speaker 4: it comes to the next generation, this might sound like
Speaker 4: Pollyanna media literacy.
Speaker 3: I really I worry about.
Speaker 4: This so deeply, and hey, I'm not a young person,
Speaker 4: and I struggle with it. I said, all my friends
Speaker 4: this video of what I thought was bunnies jumping on
Speaker 4: a trampoline, and they all have to be like, honey,
Speaker 4: it's AI. And I realized, I said, oh, I think
Speaker 4: I have a blind spot when it comes to cute
Speaker 4: animal videos that are AI.
Speaker 3: It's like, I want to believe so badly.
Speaker 4: So I am not immune to this, but I do
Speaker 4: think I am of the generation that was really taught
Speaker 4: to not trust what you.
Speaker 3: Saw online, and I think that those skills.
Speaker 4: They're not always perfect, but I think that being socialized
Speaker 4: that way on the Internet has been tremendously helpful. That
Speaker 4: when I see something that makes my heart beat faster
Speaker 4: or gives me a quick, you know, feeling of you know,
Speaker 4: anger or outrage, I've kind of trained myself to be like,
Speaker 4: let's read the whole article first of all. Let's yes,
Speaker 4: if I don't recognize the sources, throw it into Google.
Speaker 3: Let's you know, let's take a minute.
Speaker 4: Don't just rage share because it made my heart beat
Speaker 4: a little bit faster. And I worry that we are
Speaker 4: sort of losing that when it comes to our current
Speaker 4: Internet experience. And I don't think that that I think
Speaker 4: that that means we were leaving behind a less thoughtful
Speaker 4: Internet landscape for the next generation when we're all just
Speaker 4: so susceptible to the trigger of algorithms that are financially
Speaker 4: incentivized to keep us locked into these these very emotional
Speaker 4: triggering loops.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I think I've talked about it on the
Speaker 2: show TT Knows It.
Speaker 1: We talk about it.
Speaker 2: This is something I am constantly practicing with my parents,
Speaker 2: with my mom, who's a little bit more on the
Speaker 2: Internet than my dad, and I think it's so important
Speaker 2: for T T and I AM, for experts like you
Speaker 2: to share like, hey, there's no level you reach where
Speaker 2: nothing infiltrates, like where nothing gets through and you just
Speaker 2: are you know, little Kim dodging everything the Internet is
Speaker 2: throwing at you. I think that doesn't happen, and I
Speaker 2: think it's unrealistic to think it happens. But it does
Speaker 2: require this constant vigilance that because we've gotten so comfortable
Speaker 2: with convenience and the perception of safety and novelty that
Speaker 2: I think we are like I don't want to do.
Speaker 1: This other thing.
Speaker 4: Yes, and it does suck because we deserve it landscape
Speaker 4: where you were not constantly being tricked and you don't
Speaker 4: have to you have your card up all the time.
Speaker 3: There are times where.
Speaker 4: I've just woken up, I'm pre morning coffee sip, my
Speaker 4: contact lenses are not even in yet, and I'm scrolling
Speaker 4: social media and I shouldn't have to have my thinking
Speaker 4: cap on twenty four seven just to engage and wad
Speaker 4: through a media landscape. So we deserve a different media landscape,
Speaker 4: but unfortunately we don't have that. You do sort of
Speaker 4: have to, you know, have your thinking cap on even
Speaker 4: when you're just casually scrolling.
Speaker 3: And I know we're talking a lot about like.
Speaker 4: Manipulated content or AI generated content, but also I think
Speaker 4: for me, it's about knowing your triggers, and for me,
Speaker 4: my triggers are it is AI generated animal videos, but
Speaker 4: it's also not AI generated content that is an inflammatory.
Speaker 4: I used to be I used to be very invested
Speaker 4: in real content that involved real people and sometimes real
Speaker 4: sometimes not that would just get me angry. And then
Speaker 4: one day I said, why, you know, just just because
Speaker 4: things that relate to like gender wars stuff, Yes, I
Speaker 4: could be locked in all day, And one day I
Speaker 4: just said, why, Like, what is this getting me? Getting
Speaker 4: me riled up about a situation that might even be
Speaker 4: a skit that somebody has made to get engagement, Like,
Speaker 4: I don't I need to be locked into.
Speaker 3: This all the time. I don't need to be participating
Speaker 3: into this.
Speaker 4: And so I say that to say people should really
Speaker 4: take the time to understand their triggers and their own
Speaker 4: tension points we all have them, and then be a
Speaker 4: little intentional about how you let that kind of content
Speaker 4: show up in your digital diet.
Speaker 2: Right, I'm the exact same way where it's just like
Speaker 2: rage bait. No way, I'm not engaging like all of
Speaker 2: the like these these people that are like, oh, we're
Speaker 2: gonna put these two people at a table who have
Speaker 2: very different opinions. I'm like, these aren't different opinions. You
Speaker 2: have someone who is a racist. A second, this as
Speaker 2: xenophobe talking to someone who is educated, and we should
Speaker 2: not be intellectualizing someone who is just a racist, full stop.
Speaker 2: And then the other part that I reviews to ingest
Speaker 2: is like these relationships shows something like they have really
Speaker 2: like Love is Blind. I'm like, now I know you
Speaker 2: all are doing this stuff on purpose because there was
Speaker 2: uh or it Love is Blind married at first sight.
Speaker 2: Like I felt like traumatized by some of these seasons
Speaker 2: because the men that were on these seasons were predatory
Speaker 2: and misogynists and all these things like that, and I
Speaker 2: was just like my blood pressure by the end of
Speaker 2: each episode was so high. I was like, this is
Speaker 2: actually like ruining me. I can't engage with these anymore.
Speaker 2: And I'm like I see on social media like clips
Speaker 2: going around from like the most recent Love is Blind,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, they're absolutely doing this on purpose.
Speaker 2: Now I feel like you all are getting these unstable
Speaker 2: people on this show to create good clips, and you're
Speaker 2: getting the clips you want, but it's to the detriment usually.
Speaker 1: Of black and brown women.
Speaker 2: I don't think that they would purposely do that to
Speaker 2: a white woman. And it's I feel like it's always
Speaker 2: a black woman who is suffering at the hands of
Speaker 2: a black man on these shows and treating her poorly
Speaker 2: and having all of these like really disgusting mentalities, and
Speaker 2: I'm just like, no more.
Speaker 3: No more, not. We don't have to sign up for that.
Speaker 3: We don't.
Speaker 4: We don't have to, we don't, and their due. I
Speaker 4: could not agree with everything that you laid out. And
Speaker 4: they're doing it for money because it is affected, yes,
Speaker 4: and they will. They will keep doing it as long
Speaker 4: as we can. If we keep rewarding them with our
Speaker 4: eyeballs and our ear holes, they're gonna keep doing it,
Speaker 4: and so we need to break that loop by retraining them.
Speaker 3: I don't want to see this. I don't want you
Speaker 3: to make money from this.
Speaker 4: They're only gonna stop when it stops being financially incentivized
Speaker 4: for them to do it, and that kind of starts
Speaker 4: on us. I really had a healthy relationship with a
Speaker 4: lot of online spaces and doing a little bit of
Speaker 4: work of being like, yeah, I need to just divest
Speaker 4: from this. It's only making me upset. There's I'm training
Speaker 4: my algorithms and I want to engage with content like this.
Speaker 4: We already know that these algorithms are more likely to
Speaker 4: show us stuff that makes.
Speaker 3: Us angry and have big emotional reactions.
Speaker 4: I have people in my life to make me angry
Speaker 4: and give me big emotional reactions. Okaying Mark Zuckerberg to do,
Speaker 4: but I don't even know him. We were talking about
Speaker 4: the future generation one of my nephews recently. He was
Speaker 4: just taking these little digs and I said, hey, all right,
Speaker 4: what's wrong with everybody?
Speaker 3: Enough?
Speaker 2: He was like, ah, we rage baited her. And I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, first of all, I'm not even mad yet.
Speaker 2: You haven't even seen me mad. But I also was like,
Speaker 2: is this what the kids are going for?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Like, is this the desire?
Speaker 2: Because we're rewarding the anger in the outrage because they
Speaker 2: want to see that. And I'm like, how do we
Speaker 2: correct these things?
Speaker 4: But that's what I mean it Depending on your nephew's age,
Speaker 4: that's that could be what he is seeing. I bet
Speaker 4: I bet content like that probably is a part of
Speaker 4: his media diet. I remember seeing some video of a
Speaker 4: social studies teacher and she was talking to her class,
Speaker 4: and she was trying to explain to her class that
Speaker 4: enslaved black people during slavery did not get paid.
Speaker 3: And the kids are like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: Day got paid?
Speaker 4: And one of the kids, so none of the kids
Speaker 4: believe her, which is already a problem, but one of
Speaker 4: the more vocal kids is like, debate me, debate me
Speaker 4: about it. And I really thought, this is not Yeah,
Speaker 4: this is what I think young people are internalizing as
Speaker 4: discourse is debating and whether or not you can make
Speaker 4: somebody flustered or make somebody have an emotional reaction, whether
Speaker 4: or not the objective fact that enslaved black people were
Speaker 4: not paid is correct or not is irrelevant. If you
Speaker 4: feel like you can, you know, hit the broad strokes
Speaker 4: of what winning a debate about it looks like.
Speaker 3: And I think.
Speaker 4: That's really a lingering thought of the culture that I'm
Speaker 4: very concerned about, Like think about you were talking t
Speaker 4: about these videos where it's like we put one reasonable
Speaker 4: person at a table and surrounded or with moras, we're
Speaker 4: gonna scream at her for an hour.
Speaker 3: Yes, that is what passes for discourse these days.
Speaker 4: And I really think, you know, when we talk about
Speaker 4: things like media literacy and anti inellectualism, the way the
Speaker 4: Internet has amplified a completely wrong version of what discourse
Speaker 4: and debate and knowledge and being learned and being.
Speaker 3: Curious looks like I think is a real problem.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and I think part of it is because
Speaker 2: we are now highlighting contrarians as intellectuals when they're not.
Speaker 2: I'm like, just because you're saying the opposite of what
Speaker 2: everybody else is saying, does not mean you're an intellectual.
Speaker 2: Like you have not put any real thought into that.
Speaker 2: You just saying no, and that's not how that works.
Speaker 2: That does not make an intellectual. I need you to
Speaker 2: come with facts, figures, and you know, thing to stand on,
Speaker 2: not just I want to be different. It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: we get it. You so different, But that's not an intellectual.
Speaker 1: New position to take. It's just being amplified exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Bridget I think you've given us a lot to think about,
Speaker 2: and we want to thank you for doing that because
Speaker 2: you've helped us move through like how we got to
Speaker 2: where we are now. On the Internet, what the real
Speaker 2: threats are, and a reminder that the Internet isn't shaped
Speaker 2: without us. We with the pressure of what we choose
Speaker 2: to engage, what we choose to give our attention, we
Speaker 2: are able to push back and say no, we don't
Speaker 2: want this or we don't want it this way. And
Speaker 2: so I think you've shared quite a bit for us,
Speaker 2: and I want to know if there are any parting
Speaker 2: thoughts you'd like to share with our audience. So, first
Speaker 2: of all, it has been a blast you all this
Speaker 2: show and the platform that you've built, and it's so
Speaker 2: important and so valuable and also so freaking fun and accessible,
Speaker 2: and I'm just happy to be here. I'm just very
Speaker 2: interested in talking about the inner of the Internet and
Speaker 2: technology and social media and identity, particularly the ways that
Speaker 2: marginalized people, people who are so often left out of
Speaker 2: the conversation do show up in very real ways and
Speaker 2: technology and online the sort of the bad and the good,
Speaker 2: the you.
Speaker 4: Know, the whole, the whole you know shebang of what
Speaker 4: that looks like. I host a few podcasts. One is
Speaker 4: called There Are No Girls on the Internet. I also
Speaker 4: host Mozilla Foundation's podcast about ethics and AI called IRL Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm just really interested in how we show up online.
Speaker 3: And I would say if there's one.
Speaker 4: Parting word, it's that it matters how and whether we
Speaker 4: are able to show up online.
Speaker 3: I love the Internet.
Speaker 4: The Internet is so important to me, not just because
Speaker 4: it's where I grew up and where I spend a
Speaker 4: lot of my time, but because I think it is
Speaker 4: a indicator of the health and well being of so
Speaker 4: many things, of our democracy, of our civic life, our
Speaker 4: civic world. And so if everybody is not able to
Speaker 4: show up equitably on our online platforms and tech landscape,
Speaker 4: we will never have the equitable representative democracy that we
Speaker 4: all deserve. And so care about the internet. Be a
Speaker 4: good steward of the Internet. Show up on the Internet.
Speaker 4: And yeah, you could check out my podcast if that resonates.
Speaker 2: You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs.
Speaker 2: Podcast CT is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore
Speaker 2: t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z said so.
Speaker 1: Dope Labs is a production of Lmanada Media.
Speaker 2: Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is
Speaker 2: Issara Asevez. Dope Labs is sound, designed, edited and mixed
Speaker 2: by James Farber. Limanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and
Speaker 2: Production is Jackie dan Singer. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast
Speaker 2: is Katrina Norvil.
Speaker 1: Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and ol
Speaker 2: Like suji Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope
Speaker 2: Labs is executive produced by us T T Show, Dia
Speaker 2: and Zakiah Watki