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Speaker 1: What was your AOL instant messenger name? Do you remember it?

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Speaker 2: My closest friend at the time, her name was Tiffany Lindsay.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to her, and she gave me the nickname Teter,

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Speaker 2: and so my screen name back then was Teeter Totter

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Speaker 2: zero five. For the year that I graduated high school?

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Speaker 2: What was the obsession with the year that we graduated

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Speaker 2: high We were obsessed. I'm t T and I'm Zakiah

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Speaker 2: And this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a

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Speaker 2: weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and

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Speaker 2: a healthy dose of friendship. We've gone from anonymous screen

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Speaker 2: names to streaming our lives in four K. Every gadget

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Speaker 2: from our phones to our refrigerators are online.

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Speaker 3: But do we really know what that means? No, we don't.

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Speaker 2: That's the problem, and I think that's exactly what this

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Speaker 2: lab is all about.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with what we do know.

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Speaker 2: What I know is we share almost everything online. And

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Speaker 2: when I say we, I mean the collective we Most

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Speaker 2: people that I know are putting a lot of their

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Speaker 2: lives on the Internet. I think the other thing we know,

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Speaker 2: and if you don't know, you are increasingly learning is

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Speaker 2: that these smart devices are always listening. I'll be the

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Speaker 2: first to say. Before I used to be like, who

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Speaker 2: has time to do extra manufacturing, Like nobody's including a

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Speaker 2: microphone and a device that's not marketed as having a

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Speaker 2: microphone or a speaker. But I'm not so sure about that, right.

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Speaker 2: And with that in mind, and knowing that the Internet

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Speaker 2: connects all of us, it also exposes us, you know,

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Speaker 2: it would become very vulnerable because of it. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: that's not even just what you share. That feels like

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Speaker 2: where you've been, like a physical history, location services from

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Speaker 2: your phone. Yeah, people know where you are. Somebody knows

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Speaker 2: where you are, somebody Oh yeah, but t T what.

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Speaker 1: Do we want to know?

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Speaker 2: I want to know how we went from dial up

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Speaker 2: innocence to total surveillance, because I mean, that's within our lifetime, Zee,

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Speaker 2: like to go from dial up internet to now it's

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Speaker 2: like pervasive. It's ubiquitous to have all of these like

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Speaker 2: location services and things listening to you, and your emails

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Speaker 2: are sending you emails of things that you searched on

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Speaker 2: the Internet, and.

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Speaker 3: It's just wild, like how did we get there? And

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Speaker 3: why did it happen so fast?

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Speaker 2: And now that we're there and we know that some

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Speaker 2: of these platforms are breaking our trusts and putting cookies

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Speaker 2: on our phone and tracking what you do. Why do

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Speaker 2: we still trust the platforms that are doing that? Why

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Speaker 2: do we still use them? And now it's starting to

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Speaker 2: shift to like it just being par for the core,

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Speaker 2: I guess. And so with that thinking about that, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: is privacy now just a.

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Speaker 1: Thing of the past? Like is it a nostalgic thing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, oh remember the good old days, like

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Speaker 2: when nobody could figure out where you lived by just

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Speaker 2: doing a simple Google search, or people couldn't find out

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Speaker 2: where you worked, Like people couldn't find pictures of you

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Speaker 2: unless you know, you put them out there, Like it's

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Speaker 2: just wild. And you're talking about privacy being nostalgic, girl,

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Speaker 2: what about fun on the internet?

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Speaker 1: Nostalgic?

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Speaker 2: The Internet is not fun no more. I don't like it.

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Speaker 2: It just feels everything is so mean, judgmental, like fake.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's just showing like the good stuff, Like I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, show me your messy bedside table. That's

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Speaker 2: my favorite thing to see.

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Speaker 1: Yep. To answer all of.

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Speaker 2: Our burning questions about the Internet, where it used to be,

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Speaker 2: how it got to how it is and what we

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Speaker 2: can do about it. We're talking to Bridget Time, host

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Speaker 2: of There Are No Girls on the Internet. She's a

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Speaker 2: digital activist, podcaster, and professional Internet explainer. You can find

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Speaker 2: her on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.

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Speaker 3: The Bridget.

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Speaker 2: We want to start out with reflecting just how much

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Speaker 2: the Internet has changed. It's gone from the scary thing

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Speaker 2: where your parents said don't talk to strangers to all

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Speaker 2: of us sharing everything.

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Speaker 3: Back in the.

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Speaker 4: Day, if you met on a dating app or an

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Speaker 4: online dating site, if there was a stigma to it.

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Speaker 4: I remember a woman in my school I met her

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Speaker 4: husband on an online dating like ooh scandal. And now

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Speaker 4: that's how the majority of people meet their partners.

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Speaker 2: Mm hm, that's how majority people meet are meeting friends.

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Speaker 2: These days, people are meeting their friends online and then

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Speaker 2: meeting up and saying, hey, I'm meeting irl in real life,

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Speaker 2: and it's just wild. I mean, I remember back in

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Speaker 2: the day putting your card information into anything online. It

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Speaker 2: was just like, might as well just broadcast it to

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Speaker 2: everybody in the world because it just didn't feel safe.

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Speaker 2: And now I'm like, if my card information is not

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Speaker 2: stored on my phone and I'm able to just tap

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Speaker 2: tap use my face by the thing I am not.

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Speaker 4: What is the point of living in a surveillance state

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Speaker 4: if I still have to by hand type in my

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Speaker 4: credit card information every single time.

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Speaker 2: There has to be perks. There has to be perks

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Speaker 2: to living in the surveillance state. I always say it.

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Speaker 1: Is I think we're all hostage to convenience.

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Speaker 2: Like I think convenience is what has eroded some of

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Speaker 2: the long arm that we had to keep us kind

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Speaker 2: of distant from the Internet. And it feels like convenience

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Speaker 2: is like the carrot that they dangled in Now we're

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Speaker 2: all just all in. Yeah, And I don't want to

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Speaker 2: act like I'm immune to it or above it, because

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Speaker 2: only recently that I start really doing a deep dive

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Speaker 2: into the ways that I have let the convenience of things.

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Speaker 3: Like Uber Eats, you know, things like.

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Speaker 4: Amazon really shape and rebuild my life in ways I

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Speaker 4: hadn't even ever really noticed or thought about. And I've

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Speaker 4: been trying to make intentional efforts to not just resist

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Speaker 4: that but just be more aware of it. But I

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Speaker 4: do think this grip that novelty and convenience has on

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Speaker 4: us is directly responsible to where we are when it

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Speaker 4: comes to our current online and social media landscape.

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Speaker 3: It really has us in a choke hold.

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Speaker 2: It's such a good point. I mean, I think the

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Speaker 2: amount of trust that we put into the Internet, the cloud,

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Speaker 2: all those things is really mind boggling, because I mean

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Speaker 2: that's why when people are like, oh, I don't want

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Speaker 2: them to take my picture here, because I'm like, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they already have it. I hate to hate to break

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Speaker 2: the news too, they already have. They're like, oh you

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Speaker 2: don't you can opt out of those pictures at TSA.

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Speaker 2: Hey you have a driver's license. TSA has your photo,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a live photo with your hair up in

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Speaker 2: a ponytail on top of your head and crusting your

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Speaker 2: eyes or your license either or they have your photo.

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Speaker 2: So like we have to stop convincing ourselves that we

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Speaker 2: aren't living in a surveillance state. And so, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it just kind of is what it is.

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Speaker 4: I have these conversations with my uncles and cousins where

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Speaker 4: they're like, oh, don't do X y Z. That's how

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Speaker 4: they get you. And I'm like, well, I think they

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Speaker 4: have You're on social media.

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Speaker 1: I think they have you.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I think that ship has sailed. This

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Speaker 4: is sort of what I always preach on the show.

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Speaker 4: I completely am aligned with you that like they've got us.

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Speaker 4: But I think it also is easy to sort of

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Speaker 4: let that very true attitude be like, oh.

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Speaker 3: Well, then there's no need.

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Speaker 4: For digital security practices. It you have to find a

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Speaker 4: balance between kind of the reality that we live in

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Speaker 4: this surveillance state and not falling into like digital nihilisms,

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Speaker 4: like so it doesn't matter, there's no need to try

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Speaker 4: to be secure, there's no need for two vector authentication,

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Speaker 4: there's no need to take common sense you know, free

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Speaker 4: digital security practices actually right now.

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Speaker 3: But it is. It is a very weird balance.

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Speaker 4: And I just think you're so right that I would

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Speaker 4: never have thought that we and I'm including myself very

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Speaker 4: much in this, would give up so much for things

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Speaker 4: like convenience and novelty.

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Speaker 3: And I think the question we should be asking the

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Speaker 3: question of.

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Speaker 4: Is the convenience that we're getting back is it worth

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Speaker 4: those trade offs?

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Speaker 3: Because I think the answer is not always hard.

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Speaker 1: Yes, right.

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Speaker 2: I think this is so interesting because we had these

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Speaker 2: two women on our show. They talked about science denial,

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Speaker 2: and they talked about it not being that you blanket

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Speaker 2: deny science, but that you cafeteria style pick what you want.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing that with my digital privacy and trust. Like

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Speaker 2: t T and I have a difference. I'm gonna say

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Speaker 2: TT is present except on all those cookies.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, t T. I just don't want to wait.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I was like, if it's taking me from Instagram,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, ooh, that bag looks so good, and I

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Speaker 2: hit open and then it's like, do you accept I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 2: except I want to see the bag. I'm not doing that.

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Speaker 2: But there's something recently that you posted, Bridget that made

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Speaker 2: me think about something I am doing. I'm against a

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Speaker 2: ring doorbell camera, but I have a camera in my

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Speaker 2: kitchen which points to like my back door. Now, I know,

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Speaker 2: TT shocking, right, Like I'm saying no to the cookies,

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Speaker 2: but that camera is connected to Wi Fi, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, there's so many like people have refrigerators

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Speaker 2: and baby monitors and all these things that connect to

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Speaker 2: Wi Fi, and I am not in the position to

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Speaker 2: be protecting these devices and what they're connected to. And

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Speaker 2: why does my thumbstat at my house have a speaker

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Speaker 2: on it? I just found that on accident the other

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Speaker 2: day trying to connect my Apple TV to an output,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, you don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: Girl.

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Speaker 2: You have these devices in here, but you just talked

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Speaker 2: about Wendy on Real housewile Kiamic. Oh yeah, I want

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Speaker 2: you to give a some give our audience a rundown

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Speaker 2: of what's happening and how these devices can betray you.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so thank you for even asking me

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Speaker 2: this question, because this is just such a cross section

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Speaker 2: of my specific interest. So, doctor Wendyosefo, she is one

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Speaker 2: of the stars the Real Housewives of Potomac, and I guess,

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Speaker 2: like if I were to classify her on like a

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Speaker 2: type on the show, she is educated.

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Speaker 3: She will never let you forget that she has four degrees.

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Speaker 3: She's a PhD. Like she's a smart cookie.

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Speaker 4: And her and her husband were both arrested because police

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Speaker 4: say they had staged a burglary in their home while

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Speaker 4: they were on vacation out of the country, and then

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Speaker 4: they said, oh, all of these luxury goods were stolen.

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Speaker 4: They filed those goods with their insurance. They were attempting to,

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Speaker 4: according to police, scam their various insurance companies almost for

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Speaker 4: a half a million dollars, so like a pretty you know,

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Speaker 4: this is.

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Speaker 1: A big chunk.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about felony level charges here.

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Speaker 3: And when I heard this, I was shook.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys watched the show, but

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Speaker 4: of all the people probably across the Bravo universe, of

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Speaker 4: the shows I watched, I can't think of somebody that

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Speaker 4: I was least expecting this kind of news from. Then,

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Speaker 4: when there are a million other people, I would have thought, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: she probably she might go to jail, she might get arrested.

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Speaker 4: Wendy is not high on that list. So I poured

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Speaker 4: through the police report.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I need to know. I want some information.

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Speaker 4: And when I got to the point of the police

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Speaker 4: report where they said, oh, well, they had a ring

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Speaker 4: camera that was turned on that they were monitoring remotely

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Speaker 4: while they were on vacation in Jamaica, and that ring

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Speaker 4: camera showed Amazon delivery drivers coming up to their house

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Speaker 4: dropping off packages and leaving, but nobody entering. And further,

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Speaker 4: they had an ADYT security system that was also turned

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Speaker 4: on while they were on vacation, supposedly getting robbed, that

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Speaker 4: had motion detectors that did not log any motion from

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Speaker 4: within their home at the time when they said they

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Speaker 4: were being robbed.

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Speaker 3: So I Wendy's a smart.

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Speaker 4: Cookie, but I don't know that in our current sort

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Speaker 4: of surveillance state that she might have known. Oh, these

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Speaker 4: systems that I voluntarily put in my home aren't just

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Speaker 4: recording bad guys or suspicious characters whatever. They're recording me,

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Speaker 4: and you know, innocidential proven guilty. I don't know what

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Speaker 4: actually happened there. We'll see, but it just goes to

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Speaker 4: show that I don't think people really understand these are

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Speaker 4: surveillance devices, and oftentimes ring camera especially, they can share

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Speaker 4: information with police without a warrant and without your consent.

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Speaker 3: I believe ADT don't quote me in this.

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Speaker 4: I believe ADT will share information with police if there

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Speaker 4: is an act of investigation. So I don't think that

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Speaker 4: police need a warrant, But if the police ask, they're

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Speaker 4: not necessarily protecting your privacy. And I just think with

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Speaker 4: things like ring camera, I think there is an attitude

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Speaker 4: that you get the camera in your house so that

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Speaker 4: you surveil others, and you don't understand necessarily that like, well,

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Speaker 4: that also means you are the one being surveilled and

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Speaker 4: you brought this on yourself.

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Speaker 3: And so with Wendy, to me, it does kind of.

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Speaker 4: Seem like she paid to voluntarily put an OP in

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Speaker 4: her home, and if she was indeed doing scams and crimes,

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Speaker 4: might not be the best thing to do. And I

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Speaker 4: just don't But I think it illustrates that we're not

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Speaker 4: necessarily thinking about technology like this in that way, Like

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Speaker 4: when you buy it, you think this is for me

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Speaker 4: to surveil others. Certainly I will not be the surveiled,

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Speaker 4: And yeah, in a surveillance siled.

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Speaker 2: I could say the same thing for every device that

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Speaker 2: we have, like I mean even your location services on

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Speaker 2: your phone, that data is being collected. That's the reason

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Speaker 2: why when someone goes missing, they're like find their cell phone,

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Speaker 2: which towers isn't pinging off of and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So if every device is collecting data, who is that

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Speaker 2: data really for the company or law enforcement, or for

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Speaker 2: us or all three?

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Speaker 4: And it goes back to what you were saying about

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Speaker 4: your the various items that you have in your home.

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Speaker 4: I think people don't realize how hard it is to

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Speaker 4: find common household electronics that do not have some sort

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Speaker 4: of recording device. In them, and you know your fridge,

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Speaker 4: your ice maker, your toaster, like the way that everything

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Speaker 4: is smart now. I recently wanted to buy fitness trackers

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Speaker 4: and I had to really do a lot of research

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Speaker 4: to find one that was quote dumb enough for me,

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Speaker 4: because yeah, I want to log my steps and get

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Speaker 4: some information about my sleep. I don't want my location

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Speaker 4: being tracked everywhere. I don't want my menstrual cycles being

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Speaker 4: information at Amazon collects about me. Some of this stuff

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Speaker 4: is intimate, and I actually don't really consent. There's actually

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Speaker 4: a really great gift guide that Mozilla Foundation put out

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Speaker 4: called the Privacy Not Included Guide, where you can look

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Speaker 4: at different consumer tech and say, like, okay, which one

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Speaker 4: is surveilling me the most and which one is revealing

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Speaker 4: me the least, just so that you can make informed

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Speaker 4: decisions about how the stuff fits in with your life.

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Speaker 2: I use AT and T and I think it really

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Speaker 2: clicked for me. When there's a thing you can log

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Speaker 2: in and see how many devices are trying to connect

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Speaker 2: to the WiFi.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what are the thirty seven items? What

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Speaker 1: are they?

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Speaker 3: What are they? It is that?

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Speaker 1: Man? It was blowing my mind.

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Speaker 2: You got people in there it's me and the devices.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, you have to turn this stuff off.

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Speaker 2: Another thing that I have a feeling about. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: bridget tell me if I'm tripping. Sometimes I turn off

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Speaker 2: Wi Fi while I'm out, and same thing for Bluetooth,

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Speaker 2: and then i feel like I look again and the

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Speaker 2: WiFi is back on, and I'm like, I know, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I feel like I have to actively monitor

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Speaker 2: my device to keep myself safe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Am I making that up? Or is that nothing?

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Speaker 4: I think our devices will default to those kinds of settings,

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Speaker 4: and even if you tell it, hey, I don't really

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Speaker 4: want this, it will always go back to that default

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Speaker 4: you're not trip. And I actually just learned this recently.

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Speaker 4: It's gonna be a year or two ago. I was

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Speaker 4: reading something where someone said, oh, you shouldn't connect to

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Speaker 4: public Wi Fi if you go to an airport or something.

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Speaker 3: Because that's that's how they get you. And I said, oh,

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Speaker 3: that's not true. That's just a lie. I looked into it.

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Speaker 3: It's not it's not it's not a lie.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I use a personal hotspot. I was trying to

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Speaker 2: trust a Delta lounge and I said, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know the way they're trying to treat me

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Speaker 2: with these ticket categories. They can't be trusted anymore either.

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Speaker 1: But those those snacks are.

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Speaker 3: Very fa Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I do a lot of personal hotspotting too, because there

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Speaker 4: are these things that you think of as commonplace or

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Speaker 4: that you think of as well. They wouldn't be offering

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Speaker 4: this amenity if it was if there was a risk

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Speaker 4: to me. And that's not always true, but even that

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Speaker 4: line of thinking, I think.

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Speaker 3: Exposes how easy it is to make.

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Speaker 4: Decisions that you don't you don't even really think about it,

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Speaker 4: where you're trading on these risks and benefits to you.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I think just it behooves us to have

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Speaker 4: more intentional conversations about these things as as more of

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Speaker 4: our devices become smart and Wi Fi enabled.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, you had a smart toilet, is gonna

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Speaker 2: be telling all your poos?

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Speaker 1: Well, she was not happy last night.

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Speaker 2: But you've talked about what it's like to be a

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Speaker 2: black woman who lives online, So we talked about surveillance

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Speaker 2: and so adding that additional layer of being a black woman.

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Speaker 2: What kind of risks do you feel like comes with

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Speaker 2: that kind of Oh my.

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Speaker 4: Gosh, I mean, if you would have asked me this

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Speaker 4: question maybe two years ago, I would have had a

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Speaker 4: lot to say.

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Speaker 3: Right, I would have said, Oh, it's you know, the.

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Speaker 4: Idea of being visible online, making your career online, being

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Speaker 4: somebody who shows up on the internet as a black

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Speaker 4: woman with opinions, with things to say.

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Speaker 3: You know, it can be tough but also can be good.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's community there, there's joy there, there is

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Speaker 4: resistance there. There is so much connection there. But it's

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Speaker 4: a double edged sword where there's also a tax. There's

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Speaker 4: also you know, very disingenuous people where no matter what

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Speaker 4: you say, there's gonna be somebody waiting in the wings

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Speaker 4: to take it out of context. That is what I

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Speaker 4: would have said probably two years ago. Today in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty five, if I'm being honest, I barely show up

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Speaker 4: online anymore.

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Speaker 3: I just think that it's I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to sound.

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Speaker 4: Like a like a doom and gloomer, because I love

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Speaker 4: the Internet and I'm forever and optimist about technology and

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Speaker 4: the Internet and all of those things. Those things are

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Speaker 4: so important to me. But I think it started when

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk bought Twitter and I was just sort of

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Speaker 4: really mourning the loss of that platform, because that was

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Speaker 4: an important platform for me.

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Speaker 3: If you were a part of og Black Twitter.

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Speaker 4: You remember what it felt like to be there and

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Speaker 4: like the genuine joy and connection that was to be

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Speaker 4: found there. I was like, Oh, I know it's gonna

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Speaker 4: be trash, but let me just stick around and see

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Speaker 4: what this platform is like. And it was just it

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Speaker 4: felt like day by day, little by little being chipped away.

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Speaker 4: And it wasn't just the over the top races and

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Speaker 4: the amplification of.

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Speaker 3: Conspiracy theories and all of that.

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Speaker 4: It was a lot of that, but also it felt

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Speaker 4: like wading through spam much more often. And this has

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Speaker 4: got to say that the early days of Twitter were great,

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Speaker 4: because I had a lot of problems with those days

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Speaker 4: as well. But after a while I just thought, what

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Speaker 4: am I getting out of this? Like it is not

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Speaker 4: bringing me any kind of joy to sign on here

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Speaker 4: day after day. And I do think that the decisions

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Speaker 4: that Elon Musk made about Twitter, I think for verberated

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Speaker 4: across a lot of social media platforms, and so I

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Speaker 4: think it wasn't just Twitter. I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: platforms where I used to spend a lot of time

390
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 4: became a lot less pleasant and a lot less. I

391
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Speaker 4: guess worth it for me to show up. And so yeah,

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Speaker 4: these days, I hate to say it, I am not

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Speaker 4: really showing up online a ton because there's not There's

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Speaker 4: just not a lot of places that feel like genuine

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Speaker 4: connection and joy anymore. I don't know where do you

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Speaker 4: all fall on this.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you, like so, I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's really hard is I have those same sentiments.

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00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 2: But like, even for us, we don't show up with

401
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 2: a video podcast right, we are doing audio only. We

402
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 2: don't do as much engagement as we used to because

403
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,439
Speaker 2: you get the trolls like I love the potential like you,

404
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 2: I'm always like, oh, it could be so wonderful.

405
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Speaker 1: We could do a live we could have these things.

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00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 2: We could talk to you know, our friends, our dope

407
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 2: labs friends, we could do all these things. I'm like,

408
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Speaker 2: I don't know how much more fallen off on the

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Speaker 2: internet platforms I can take.

410
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Speaker 1: When Google Reader died, I was sick.

411
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Speaker 2: Okay, then there was then there was Twitter, and then

412
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Speaker 2: I tried to get on SPIL.

413
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Speaker 1: I don't know if you tried spill. I did try it.

414
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 2: I couldn't really find my my group there. I did

415
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 2: find some Pokemon players there, which is also an op.

416
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 2: You should not be playing Pokemon Go. It's so monitoring

417
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 2: your location and do it. I had to stop playing that.

418
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Speaker 2: But you need all that for that charge yard I do,

419
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 2: and so I had to give I had to give

420
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Speaker 2: it up.

421
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Speaker 1: I had to quit Cult Turkey.

422
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 2: But I also found like even on Instagram, the engagement

423
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 2: was just different and it felt like you had to

424
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 2: be like selling something all the time and not.

425
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 1: Just putting something super state together.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, I don't even I just found

427
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: myself in the stories having a good old time. And

428
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 2: even after a while that became like and so I

429
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 2: feel like I kind of check in a little bit

430
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Speaker 2: and then I'm out of their threads. It was good

431
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 2: at first, Now it's going the way of Twitter with

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Speaker 2: people reposting the same thing over and over again. And

433
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Speaker 2: then even Pinterest, I was like, at least I can

434
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 2: look at pretty pictures. Now it's all ads and all

435
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: ai as well. Yes, and so I'm like, what's left?

436
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 2: I guess substack, I just keep reading people substancs. I

437
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: don't know, yes, honestly, like that's how I feel too.

438
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: I was just talking to one of my sisters about this. Yesterday,

439
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 2: I was like Instagram like all the same feelings about Twitter.

440
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 2: Like once Twitter changed, I was like, this is no

441
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: longer a place for me. So I just I don't

442
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: even bother Instagram. It's to a point where AI where

443
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm I feel like I'm an old Auntie where I'm like, Wow,

444
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 2: this is amazing. And then my nephew who's eight, is

445
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: like Auntie TT that's AI, and I'm like.

446
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 3: Oh, are you sure?

447
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 2: I'm never really sure, Like the AI is getting so

448
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: good that I really am falling victim to and I'm

449
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: just like this isn't fun, Like I want to see

450
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 2: like real stuff, And it's just I agree with Zakia,

451
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: where it's like the more you put on there, the

452
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: more it's like they're just people who are so emboldened

453
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 2: by the anonymity of social media that it kind of

454
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 2: just like tainted the experience a lot. Where it's just

455
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 2: like if you make an account that's purely just theatroll,

456
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: like come on, like it's just it's just makes the

457
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 2: whole experience just feel different. Where it's like now I'm overthinking.

458
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: Now I'm like, okay, should I put this? What if

459
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: somebody says this, and I don't want to feel like that,

460
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: and especially when it's something that's you know, tied to

461
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 2: something that I feel like is way bigger than me,

462
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: like Dope Labs and the keys involved. I'm like, I

463
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: really have to think about it because we're attached to

464
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: this thing, and so we're trying to keep this a

465
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 2: safe space for not just us, Like I'm thinking about

466
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: the other people who really enjoy our show. I don't

467
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: want them to be subject to, you know, all these

468
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 2: different things, and so, you know, but I also feel

469
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: like if I do remove myself too much, then the

470
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: trolls are right, you know what I mean. Like, I

471
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: feel like we got to keep showing up, and it's

472
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: just a matter of figuring out ways that we can

473
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: show up in a way that also we can practice

474
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: some self preservation so that we can find the spaces

475
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 2: where you know, we fit. And it's not like, oh,

476
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: I'm just throwing myself to the wolves and things like that,

477
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.

478
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 4: This is exactly the kind of balance I'm trying to find.

479
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 4: And I think to your point about not wanting to

480
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 4: let the trolls and bad actors and all those folks

481
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 4: and voices win. People love talking about free speech on

482
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 4: social media platforms, but when someone stops showing up and

483
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 4: stops using their voice and really just goes quiet on

484
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 4: these platforms because of these other voices, that is.

485
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: Also a free speech issue.

486
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 4: When you feel like you can't use these platforms effectively

487
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 4: or equitably to build a platform for yourself or put

488
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: your voice out there, or you know, engage with your

489
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 4: community or whatever you're trying to do.

490
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: That is also a free speech issue.

491
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 4: But one kind of saving grace that I have really

492
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 4: been kind of reconnecting with lately against the backdrop of

493
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 4: all of this, that we all have in common is

494
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 4: the form of audio. I have said spicy stuff on

495
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 4: the podcast, stuff that if I put it in a

496
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 4: tweet or a thread post, I would have to be

497
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 4: back and forth all day. I think there is something

498
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 4: about long form audio content where if somebody wants to

499
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 4: take my words out of content text or misconstrue them,

500
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 4: or you know they're committed to misunderstanding me, they have

501
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 4: to listen to an hour long podcast to do that.

502
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 3: The barrier is quite high. So you gotta you gotta

503
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 3: really want to do.

504
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: That to me.

505
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 4: You got to really, I was just talking to you

506
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 4: a friend of mine that makes podcasts, and his podcast

507
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 4: is quite big, it's one of the biggest podcasts.

508
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: In the world.

509
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 4: And he said that, you know, he doesn't weirdly, he

510
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 4: doesn't really get a lot of trolls and stuff because.

511
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 3: They're not out here doing short form.

512
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 4: They're not on Twitter really or blue Sky really, they're

513
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 4: not in that sort of live streamer debate kind of circle.

514
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: And that.

515
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, audio can be kind of protective, and I think

516
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 4: it's because it's a medium that is so you can

517
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 4: be authentic there. You can explain what you need to

518
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 4: say in your own words. One of my favorite things

519
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 4: about listening to audio content is listening to somebody work

520
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 4: their way or think their way through a concept they

521
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: haven't fully.

522
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: Flushed out yet.

523
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 3: You get to hear the wheels turning in real time.

524
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 4: I think that's a medium that lends itself to thoughtfulness

525
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 4: in a against a media backdrop where I feel like

526
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: so much of it is going the other way. Short

527
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: form videos, you know, AI slop that just feeds into

528
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: the worst stereotypes and whatever. Like, Yeah, against that backdrop,

529
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 4: I think audio is really where I'm finding a lot.

530
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: Of my comfort.

531
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's definitely been. I mean it was

532
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: the gateway for me and t T, and I think

533
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: is where we feel like best and safest.

534
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: And I'm like, make a real I don't know every

535
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: now and.

536
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: Every now and then we get one together and TT

537
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: gets on me because I won't cross post it to

538
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 2: Dope Labs because.

539
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, it might not be right.

540
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: I don't want to bring dope laus into this.

541
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

542
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 4: I love that you're you've both expressed that now that

543
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 4: this is kind of lovely.

544
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 3: You both expressed, oh, well.

545
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: I want to be accountable to Dope Labs and I

546
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 4: want to be accountable to my co host. And that's

547
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 4: a beautiful thing that you're both kind of like really

548
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: feel a responsibility both to your audience that you have

549
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 4: built and to each other as partners in this.

550
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: That is really beautiful.

551
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 2: Yes, because dope Blabs can go away. That is my

552
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: friend in real life and I would not trade her

553
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: for anything, and so anything that I feel like would

554
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: be a bad look for her, I'm like, nah, not

555
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: doing it.

556
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: Now.

557
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: I have another question for you, Bridget, because you've talked

558
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: a little bit about like we've talked about audio being

559
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: this kind of protective space. Some people I've seen talking

560
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 2: about this, So I've seen people talk about building your

561
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 2: own email list and not really relying on these platforms.

562
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: TT and I sometimes talk about it like the democratization

563
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 2: of media, like it's neutral and it's open and everybody

564
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: can have access. But I think that's like just the

565
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 2: base layer when you paint the picture. I think there

566
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: are so many other layers to this, and I'm curious about,

567
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 2: like what would it look like to clean up the

568
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: Internet or to make it better? Like, and I know

569
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: that's a big question, but like, what are some of

570
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: the you think the first steps.

571
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 4: Oh, I think one of the first steps is that

572
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 4: Mark Zuckerberg has to resign. No, I'm kidding, uh, but

573
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 4: you know, I really think the first step has to

574
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: be building an entire I mean this is no, this

575
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: is a tall order, but we really need a digital

576
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 4: media ecosystem that has things like care and empathy at

577
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 4: the center instead of things like scale and growth at

578
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: all costs. I think that every experience that you have

579
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 4: online where you're like, oh, this used to be a

580
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 4: fun you know, you used to be able to read

581
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 4: articles on your phone and then you could click on

582
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 4: a link and you didn't have to worry that so

583
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 4: many things were gonna pop up that it was gonna

584
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 4: you just was you couldn't even read the article. It

585
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 4: didn't used to always be like that. There there's some

586
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 4: sites were like that, but not all. Every time that

587
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 4: you have an experience online that seems worse than the

588
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: way it used to be back in the day, somebody

589
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 4: made a decision to prioritize money or growth or something

590
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: like that over the experience of care or thoughtfulness or

591
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 4: something else. And so I think really getting back to

592
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: what it is that we are designing our tech landscape

593
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 4: for and around I think is key. I also would

594
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 4: like to see, and this is something that we don't

595
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: have to wait to get systemic change on. I think

596
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 4: that everybody, everybody listening, all of us, could really use

597
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 4: rethinking our relationship with technology, right. I think for so

598
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 4: long we have bought into this lie that says, oh,

599
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 4: the Elon Musks and the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world,

600
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 4: they are special boy geniuses that have it all figured

601
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 4: out in a way that none of us could ever

602
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 4: hope to And whatever future they are designing is going

603
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: to be a good version of the future and we

604
00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 4: just gotta, you know.

605
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: Get on board with it.

606
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: No, no, but you were Elon Musk is not smarter

607
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 4: than anybody listening to this podcast.

608
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 3: That can assure you with that, right, And so I

609
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 3: think exactly no me framing.

610
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 4: This idea that that they just get to make all

611
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 4: the decisions and have all the power and we have

612
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 4: no say because you're an expert in your experience, the

613
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 4: way that you feel about the technology in your life

614
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 4: that you've paid for, that that that impacts so much

615
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: of our day to day that is valid and that's real.

616
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 4: And you know, I think we have to make some

617
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 4: shifts that shift that balance of power back to us,

618
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 4: because none of these people would even have jobs if

619
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 4: not for us, None of these people, they would be

620
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,719
Speaker 4: designing technology for nobody if not for us.

621
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: And so I really want all of.

622
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 4: Us to sort of take our power back a little bit,

623
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: and remember we do have some power and some agency

624
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 4: in this dynamic. It doesn't have to just be all

625
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 4: them taking from us.

626
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that that's such a great point, and

627
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: I think that was something that we talked about when

628
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: you had me on your show. There are no girls

629
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: on the internet was that you know, it's important for

630
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: us to understand and this technology like AI and things

631
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: like that, so that we can have the power because

632
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: the more that we're just like no, no, no, I'm

633
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: not going to engage. You can choose to engage in

634
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: different ways. But it is very important to know how

635
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 2: these things work, so you because you'll be able to

636
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: see the ways that people are trying to control or

637
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: how you know, these entities are trying to control or

638
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: take control and you know, shape things for their own

639
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: financial benefit. And so it's like power to the people,

640
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: all power to the people. You need to know how

641
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: these things work. And so all of this makes me

642
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: think of the like the next generation of Internet users.

643
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: How do you think we should be socializing the next

644
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: generation when it comes to the Internet, like how they

645
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: would use the Internet as a tool in their lives.

646
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 4: So I really appreciate this question, and I just want

647
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 4: to I appreciate what you all are doing, especially for

648
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 4: people who are so often let out of conversations about

649
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 4: tech that it's I think if you hooves us all

650
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 4: to demystify this to you know, not be afraid of it,

651
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: even if you're somebody who is a little bit of

652
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: a technophobe, or you're not down with certain kinds of technology.

653
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 4: I want all of our people to be comfortable with it,

654
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 4: to understand it, to know how to use it, even

655
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: if they're like, I don't like this technology. I think

656
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 4: that it's so easy to just put your head in

657
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: the sand and say, therefore, I don't need to know

658
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 4: anything about it.

659
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: And I think that is a mistake.

660
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 4: And so I'm so grateful for your voices in doing

661
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 4: the work of correcting that mistake for us. But when

662
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 4: it comes to the next generation, this might sound like

663
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: Pollyanna media literacy.

664
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 3: I really I worry about.

665
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 4: This so deeply, and hey, I'm not a young person,

666
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: and I struggle with it. I said, all my friends

667
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 4: this video of what I thought was bunnies jumping on

668
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 4: a trampoline, and they all have to be like, honey,

669
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 4: it's AI. And I realized, I said, oh, I think

670
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: I have a blind spot when it comes to cute

671
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 4: animal videos that are AI.

672
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: It's like, I want to believe so badly.

673
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 4: So I am not immune to this, but I do

674
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 4: think I am of the generation that was really taught

675
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: to not trust what you.

676
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 3: Saw online, and I think that those skills.

677
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 4: They're not always perfect, but I think that being socialized

678
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 4: that way on the Internet has been tremendously helpful. That

679
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 4: when I see something that makes my heart beat faster

680
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 4: or gives me a quick, you know, feeling of you know,

681
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 4: anger or outrage, I've kind of trained myself to be like,

682
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 4: let's read the whole article first of all. Let's yes,

683
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 4: if I don't recognize the sources, throw it into Google.

684
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: Let's you know, let's take a minute.

685
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: Don't just rage share because it made my heart beat

686
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: a little bit faster. And I worry that we are

687
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 4: sort of losing that when it comes to our current

688
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 4: Internet experience. And I don't think that that I think

689
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 4: that that means we were leaving behind a less thoughtful

690
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 4: Internet landscape for the next generation when we're all just

691
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: so susceptible to the trigger of algorithms that are financially

692
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: incentivized to keep us locked into these these very emotional

693
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 4: triggering loops.

694
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

695
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I think I've talked about it on the

696
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: show TT Knows It.

697
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: We talk about it.

698
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: This is something I am constantly practicing with my parents,

699
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: with my mom, who's a little bit more on the

700
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 2: Internet than my dad, and I think it's so important

701
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: for T T and I AM, for experts like you

702
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: to share like, hey, there's no level you reach where

703
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: nothing infiltrates, like where nothing gets through and you just

704
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 2: are you know, little Kim dodging everything the Internet is

705
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: throwing at you. I think that doesn't happen, and I

706
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: think it's unrealistic to think it happens. But it does

707
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: require this constant vigilance that because we've gotten so comfortable

708
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: with convenience and the perception of safety and novelty that

709
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: I think we are like I don't want to do.

710
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: This other thing.

711
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 4: Yes, and it does suck because we deserve it landscape

712
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 4: where you were not constantly being tricked and you don't

713
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 4: have to you have your card up all the time.

714
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: There are times where.

715
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 4: I've just woken up, I'm pre morning coffee sip, my

716
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 4: contact lenses are not even in yet, and I'm scrolling

717
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 4: social media and I shouldn't have to have my thinking

718
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 4: cap on twenty four seven just to engage and wad

719
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 4: through a media landscape. So we deserve a different media landscape,

720
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 4: but unfortunately we don't have that. You do sort of

721
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 4: have to, you know, have your thinking cap on even

722
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: when you're just casually scrolling.

723
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 3: And I know we're talking a lot about like.

724
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 4: Manipulated content or AI generated content, but also I think

725
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 4: for me, it's about knowing your triggers, and for me,

726
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: my triggers are it is AI generated animal videos, but

727
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 4: it's also not AI generated content that is an inflammatory.

728
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 4: I used to be I used to be very invested

729
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 4: in real content that involved real people and sometimes real

730
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: sometimes not that would just get me angry. And then

731
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 4: one day I said, why, you know, just just because

732
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 4: things that relate to like gender wars stuff, Yes, I

733
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: could be locked in all day, And one day I

734
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 4: just said, why, Like, what is this getting me? Getting

735
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 4: me riled up about a situation that might even be

736
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 4: a skit that somebody has made to get engagement, Like,

737
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: I don't I need to be locked into.

738
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: This all the time. I don't need to be participating

739
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 3: into this.

740
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 4: And so I say that to say people should really

741
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 4: take the time to understand their triggers and their own

742
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 4: tension points we all have them, and then be a

743
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 4: little intentional about how you let that kind of content

744
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 4: show up in your digital diet.

745
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: Right, I'm the exact same way where it's just like

746
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 2: rage bait. No way, I'm not engaging like all of

747
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: the like these these people that are like, oh, we're

748
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: gonna put these two people at a table who have

749
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 2: very different opinions. I'm like, these aren't different opinions. You

750
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: have someone who is a racist. A second, this as

751
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: xenophobe talking to someone who is educated, and we should

752
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: not be intellectualizing someone who is just a racist, full stop.

753
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 2: And then the other part that I reviews to ingest

754
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: is like these relationships shows something like they have really

755
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: like Love is Blind. I'm like, now I know you

756
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: all are doing this stuff on purpose because there was

757
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 2: uh or it Love is Blind married at first sight.

758
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 2: Like I felt like traumatized by some of these seasons

759
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: because the men that were on these seasons were predatory

760
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: and misogynists and all these things like that, and I

761
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: was just like my blood pressure by the end of

762
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: each episode was so high. I was like, this is

763
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: actually like ruining me. I can't engage with these anymore.

764
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 2: And I'm like I see on social media like clips

765
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 2: going around from like the most recent Love is Blind,

766
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, they're absolutely doing this on purpose.

767
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: Now I feel like you all are getting these unstable

768
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 2: people on this show to create good clips, and you're

769
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: getting the clips you want, but it's to the detriment usually.

770
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: Of black and brown women.

771
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: I don't think that they would purposely do that to

772
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: a white woman. And it's I feel like it's always

773
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: a black woman who is suffering at the hands of

774
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 2: a black man on these shows and treating her poorly

775
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: and having all of these like really disgusting mentalities, and

776
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: I'm just like, no more.

777
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: No more, not. We don't have to sign up for that.

778
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 3: We don't.

779
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 4: We don't have to, we don't, and their due. I

780
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 4: could not agree with everything that you laid out. And

781
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: they're doing it for money because it is affected, yes,

782
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 4: and they will. They will keep doing it as long

783
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 4: as we can. If we keep rewarding them with our

784
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 4: eyeballs and our ear holes, they're gonna keep doing it,

785
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,479
Speaker 4: and so we need to break that loop by retraining them.

786
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 3: I don't want to see this. I don't want you

787
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 3: to make money from this.

788
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 4: They're only gonna stop when it stops being financially incentivized

789
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 4: for them to do it, and that kind of starts

790
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 4: on us. I really had a healthy relationship with a

791
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 4: lot of online spaces and doing a little bit of

792
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 4: work of being like, yeah, I need to just divest

793
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 4: from this. It's only making me upset. There's I'm training

794
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 4: my algorithms and I want to engage with content like this.

795
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 4: We already know that these algorithms are more likely to

796
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 4: show us stuff that makes.

797
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 3: Us angry and have big emotional reactions.

798
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 4: I have people in my life to make me angry

799
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 4: and give me big emotional reactions. Okaying Mark Zuckerberg to do,

800
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 4: but I don't even know him. We were talking about

801
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 4: the future generation one of my nephews recently. He was

802
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 4: just taking these little digs and I said, hey, all right,

803
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 4: what's wrong with everybody?

804
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 3: Enough?

805
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 2: He was like, ah, we rage baited her. And I

806
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: was like, oh, first of all, I'm not even mad yet.

807
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: You haven't even seen me mad. But I also was like,

808
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: is this what the kids are going for?

809
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 3: You know?

810
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: Like, is this the desire?

811
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: Because we're rewarding the anger in the outrage because they

812
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: want to see that. And I'm like, how do we

813
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: correct these things?

814
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 4: But that's what I mean it Depending on your nephew's age,

815
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 4: that's that could be what he is seeing. I bet

816
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 4: I bet content like that probably is a part of

817
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 4: his media diet. I remember seeing some video of a

818
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 4: social studies teacher and she was talking to her class,

819
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 4: and she was trying to explain to her class that

820
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 4: enslaved black people during slavery did not get paid.

821
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: And the kids are like, what are you talking about?

822
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 3: Day got paid?

823
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 4: And one of the kids, so none of the kids

824
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 4: believe her, which is already a problem, but one of

825
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: the more vocal kids is like, debate me, debate me

826
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: about it. And I really thought, this is not Yeah,

827
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 4: this is what I think young people are internalizing as

828
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 4: discourse is debating and whether or not you can make

829
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 4: somebody flustered or make somebody have an emotional reaction, whether

830
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 4: or not the objective fact that enslaved black people were

831
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 4: not paid is correct or not is irrelevant. If you

832
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 4: feel like you can, you know, hit the broad strokes

833
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 4: of what winning a debate about it looks like.

834
00:40:59,000 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 3: And I think.

835
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 4: That's really a lingering thought of the culture that I'm

836
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 4: very concerned about, Like think about you were talking t

837
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 4: about these videos where it's like we put one reasonable

838
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 4: person at a table and surrounded or with moras, we're

839
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 4: gonna scream at her for an hour.

840
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: Yes, that is what passes for discourse these days.

841
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 4: And I really think, you know, when we talk about

842
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 4: things like media literacy and anti inellectualism, the way the

843
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 4: Internet has amplified a completely wrong version of what discourse

844
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: and debate and knowledge and being learned and being.

845
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: Curious looks like I think is a real problem.

846
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and I think part of it is because

847
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: we are now highlighting contrarians as intellectuals when they're not.

848
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, just because you're saying the opposite of what

849
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: everybody else is saying, does not mean you're an intellectual.

850
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: Like you have not put any real thought into that.

851
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 2: You just saying no, and that's not how that works.

852
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: That does not make an intellectual. I need you to

853
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: come with facts, figures, and you know, thing to stand on,

854
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: not just I want to be different. It's like, okay,

855
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: we get it. You so different, But that's not an intellectual.

856
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: New position to take. It's just being amplified exactly exactly.

857
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: Bridget I think you've given us a lot to think about,

858
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: and we want to thank you for doing that because

859
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: you've helped us move through like how we got to

860
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: where we are now. On the Internet, what the real

861
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 2: threats are, and a reminder that the Internet isn't shaped

862
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: without us. We with the pressure of what we choose

863
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: to engage, what we choose to give our attention, we

864
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: are able to push back and say no, we don't

865
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: want this or we don't want it this way. And

866
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: so I think you've shared quite a bit for us,

867
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: and I want to know if there are any parting

868
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: thoughts you'd like to share with our audience. So, first

869
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: of all, it has been a blast you all this

870
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: show and the platform that you've built, and it's so

871
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: important and so valuable and also so freaking fun and accessible,

872
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: and I'm just happy to be here. I'm just very

873
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: interested in talking about the inner of the Internet and

874
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: technology and social media and identity, particularly the ways that

875
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 2: marginalized people, people who are so often left out of

876
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: the conversation do show up in very real ways and

877
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: technology and online the sort of the bad and the good,

878
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: the you.

879
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 4: Know, the whole, the whole you know shebang of what

880
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 4: that looks like. I host a few podcasts. One is

881
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 4: called There Are No Girls on the Internet. I also

882
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 4: host Mozilla Foundation's podcast about ethics and AI called IRL Yeah,

883
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 4: I'm just really interested in how we show up online.

884
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 3: And I would say if there's one.

885
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 4: Parting word, it's that it matters how and whether we

886
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 4: are able to show up online.

887
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: I love the Internet.

888
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 4: The Internet is so important to me, not just because

889
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 4: it's where I grew up and where I spend a

890
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 4: lot of my time, but because I think it is

891
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 4: a indicator of the health and well being of so

892
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 4: many things, of our democracy, of our civic life, our

893
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 4: civic world. And so if everybody is not able to

894
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 4: show up equitably on our online platforms and tech landscape,

895
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 4: we will never have the equitable representative democracy that we

896
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 4: all deserve. And so care about the internet. Be a

897
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 4: good steward of the Internet. Show up on the Internet.

898
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 4: And yeah, you could check out my podcast if that resonates.

899
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 2: You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs.

900
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: Podcast CT is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore

901
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z said so.

902
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: Dope Labs is a production of Lmanada Media.

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00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 2: Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is

904
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: Issara Asevez. Dope Labs is sound, designed, edited and mixed

905
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: by James Farber. Limanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and

906
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: Production is Jackie dan Singer. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast

907
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: is Katrina Norvil.

908
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.

909
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and ol

910
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: Like suji Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope

911
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: Labs is executive produced by us T T Show, Dia

912
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: and Zakiah Watki