WEBVTT - 13: Chasing Ghosts 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:13.880 Ye novel. A listener note this episode contains violence and 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:17.919 content that some listeners might find distressing, including references to 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:31.040 child abuse. Previously on deliver Us from Hervill, welcome to 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:35.159 Colonia Lavaria. Well, yeah, come and say hi to Jessee. 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.360 We were going to Zion to prepare a place for 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.519 Jesus to return. Hervil thought that if he got rid 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.000 of Joel, he could just move in and take leadership 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.240 with Joel's people. Anyone who opposed him deserved to die, 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:54.080 including a daughter. Herbal was their leader. They thought they 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.280 were going to go out and save the world. I 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.480 don't know what you know about law work, but nobody 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.200 has all the information. Everybody has a little piece, and 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.600 that little piece of that little piece of that little piece. 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.800 The only way you're going to get Erville is to 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.120 break someone substantial in his group. The jury files back 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.680 in and the judge says Hervil LeBaron guilty of conspiracy 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.840 to commit murder of first degree felony. I think by 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.399 the time Irville had died, I knew it really wasn't over. 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:29.040 Because with such an unstable group founded on such erroneous principles, 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.479 you never really know what to expect. I'm Gabriella LeBaron, 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:38.360 and my father is irvill Aber. This is the book 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.440 of the New Covenant. It's a manifesto of hervill le Baron. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.200 Coult wasn't even a word we knew of. There was 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.240 no quote. We were the KG if anything. Yeah, we 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.160 called ourselves we were God's Kingdom. I mean, murder was 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.160 sort of a of a natural thing with these folks Hebrew. 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.120 He gave the authority to the next Brethren line, so 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.800 called Aaron. We would do those kind of heavy loaded 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.440 prayers in support of the four o'clock murders happening in 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:12.800 the States. It was just surreal. It's like no can 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.920 at least happen. It was so shocking. Who did it 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.200 and why? This is God's law. We have to do 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.080 it otherwise the whole world will go to hell like Armageddon. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.440 The investigation is going nowhere. We don't have any evidence. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.399 Everybody's lying to us. There's a hard core of these 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:34.200 kids that were raised in this environment and are practiced killers. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.360 All the adults were in jail now and we need 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.799 to carry on continuing the murder spree. I understand what 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.800 it's like to live in a terrorist organization. I understand 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.680 how mothers who strapped bombs to their children feel in 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.560 the trail is kind of cold for the murders in Texas, 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.240 and all of a sudden, Dick Forbes gets this phone call. 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.960 They're willing to tell us everything and they want some protection. 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:03.320 This interview is just done called chilling. Richard was straightforward 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.320 as a witness. I'm he tell you anything. Jenny was 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.160 only killed because she was old enough to be a witness. 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.280 How did he feel about killing an eight year old? 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.480 What did he tell you that he had to do it? 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.280 He was ordered to. We actually had physical evidence that 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.200 we could use. We had a story that's stuck together, 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.080 and we had people that were in the family willing 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:40.520 to testify. The first trial of the four o'clock murders 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:48.680 began on January eleven. William Hebrew le Baron, Patricia le Baron, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.680 and Douglas Lee Barlow shuffled into the United States District 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.840 Court in Houston, Texas, less than a year after Cynthia 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.920 le Baron had made that fateful phone call to detect 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.640 of Dick Forbes to tell him she was ready to 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:10.880 turn on the Kingdom of God. As the trial began, 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.440 you might expect the cops and prosecutors to have felt 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:19.080 some sense of trepidation. After all, this colt had a 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.920 history of getting away with killing people. Who knows how 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:28.120 this trial might play out, But to be honest, that 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:33.200 would be injecting false drama into the proceedings because Hebrew 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.120 and the two other KOG members on trial weren't going 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:41.080 to dispute their involvement in the killings, which kind of 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:47.719 gave Hebrew's defense lawyer, Tom Berg, an impossible task. I 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.680 was a public defender. It would lose most of our cases. 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.640 But you do the best you can. You try to 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.599 get creative. You try to come up with a theory 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.160 that is credible that allows you to stand up in 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.320 front of a jury with a straight face and tell 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.280 a story that's the story that your client wants presented, 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.359 because you're telling his story, not yours, and then the 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.599 jury decides. I was willing to fight the case to 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.840 try and win it, even if the odds were against us. 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.400 Hebrew and the others had given very specific instructions to 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.000 their legal team. They wanted the trial, they wanted the form, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.080 they wanted the chance to have their side of the 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.240 story told. And I think he'd realized that he was 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:29.880 in jail and he would always be in jail. What 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.479 was the justification that he shared with you for the killings? 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:38.440 They believed that they were entitled to this revenge, And 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.440 of course throughout you've got this issue of blood atonement, 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:46.159 which for them was the core of their worldview and 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.800 religious belief. These are people not only had they personally 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:54.480 offended them, but they had offended the religion and the 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.440 only way their souls could be saved was through the 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.800 shedding of blood. So yeah, like I said, not in 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.200 easy argument for a public defender to put in front 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:07.400 of a Texas jury. But Hebrew and the others felt 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.839 God was on their side. He fully believed that he 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:16.040 was right and what he did. And it's twisted logic 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.080 for us, but this is how they were raised from 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.160 small and so it made sense to them and it 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.320 was internally consistent for them to believe this way and 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:29.320 to justify everything they did along those lines. Was there 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:35.880 any remorse for any of the crimes he committed. Yeah, 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.360 that the little girl had come with her father that 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:43.800 day was for them not a tragic circumstance, but just 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:51.640 a circumstance. I couldn't find a commonality that I tried 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.679 to find with clients, whether it's some kind of connection 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.200 that I can use. They truly did believe in this 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:06.240 really warped worldview, that this was mandated by God. How 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.839 unusual is that for you to not be able to 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.480 find any sort of commonality or affection for a client. 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.120 That's rare. That's rare because I can usually at this 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:22.040 stage in my career finds something and everybody, And why 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.960 do you think with them? You couldn't because they were 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.720 so locked into that worldview. It's not like something you 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:36.640 could reason with. Perhaps the most dramatic moment in the 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:41.120 trial came when Cynthia, the defendants sister, took the stand. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.520 It was a closed court the day she came in, 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.840 so no one from the audience could intimidate her. By 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.560 this point, Cynthia was living in a witness protection program 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.440 for her safety. She broke down in tears as she 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:03.679 testified against her brother and sister. And then on January 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.520 Tom made his closing statement and he urged the jury 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:12.240 to remember that the accused killers truly believed that they 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.960 were carrying out vengeance in the name of God. It 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.400 was a very hard argument, and the jury'sall right through it. 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:22.480 You know, they we're out for days and days, but 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.680 it was the only argument that we had after a 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:31.120 hunt lasting so many years. The jury returned after just 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:36.920 a few hours. They found Hebrew, Patricia, and Doug guilty 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.240 of nine federal charges. No one was surprised with the verdict, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:48.480 and none of them showed any particular emotion. I think 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.760 we all knew what was coming. The jury had no 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.320 doubts they were responsible for the killings. There was a 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.320 strong impulse amongst them to convict because of how horrible 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.199 the facts were. And then the judge imposed a sentence, 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.360 and in this case, we already knew what the sentence 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.120 was going to be based on everything that had gone before. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:20.080 It was life, life without parole. At a separate hearing, 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:24.240 in the fall of Richard LeBaron was also sentenced for 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.840 his role in the four o'clock killings. In return for 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.840 his confession, prosecutors asked the judge for leniency, and the 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:38.960 judge gave it. Richard received five years in prison. That 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.920 left just two members from the KOG leadership at large, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:48.360 Aaron and Tarsa LeBaron, two of the colds most Devout 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:57.400 members from the teams at Novel and I Heart Radio. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.360 This is the final episode of deliver Us from Hervill 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:16.240 episode thirteen, Chasing Ghosts. The crossing between the Mexican border 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.680 and Laredo, Texas has a special place in the history 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.400 of the Cult of Rbal LeBaron. It's where Erville's former 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.720 wife and cult assassin, Rina Channath entered US police custody 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.520 in nineteen seventy seven, and two years later, it's where 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:40.400 Irville crossed to his final destination, prison and death. Decades later, 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:46.360 in Detective Dick Forbes and federal prosecutor and Jenny Task 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.320 Force veteran David Schwinderman had arranged with border guards at 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:55.040 Laredo to allow Cynthia LeBaron and her sister Jessica into 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.440 the US to help them bring down the Kingdom of 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:03.720 God and now in nineteen it's where Aaron le Baron, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:08.520 leader of the KOG the Final One, Mighty and Strong, 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:15.480 crossed in handcuffs. Getting eron this far had not been easy. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:21.240 The Jenny Task Force faced two major obstacles. First, they 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.559 had to find Aaron, then they had to get him 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:32.640 into America. The first part, surprisingly wasn't that hard. Mexican 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.360 cops located Aeron pretty quickly after the conviction of his siblings, 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.160 but you know, they weren't about anything give him up 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:43.559 to us until they got some concessions. David Schwinderman learned 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.400 that the Mexican cops had swooped up Aaron le Baron 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:52.280 in but the local authorities wanted an exchange eron for 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.240 some of their citizens currently being held in the US 0:11:55.360 --> 0:12:01.160 awaiting execution in Texas. Seems fair enough to me, but Texas, 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:06.240 being well Texas, the authorities weren't going to permit that. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.960 So there was a standoff, one that eventually went all 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.480 the way to the top. U s Attorney General Janet 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:19.559 Reno and Miss Rino then begins to negotiate on our 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:26.160 behalf with the Mexican authorities to get Aaron transferred to 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:31.520 Texas for prosecution. In Texas, no one ever gave up 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.280 anybody on death row in Texas. To get Aaron back, 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:38.560 the federal government had to give assurances to Mexico that 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.520 Aaron would not be executed for his crimes. Miss Reno 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.480 convinced him to send him up to the bridge and 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.920 walk him across. Aaron crossed that bridge in Laredo and 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:54.600 was taken to jail, a family ritual now as familiar 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.040 to the law barons as the placing of hands on 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.079 heads to make someone the next mighty and star on. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.880 As all this was happening with Aaron, his sister, Gabriella LeBaron, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.959 was now no longer a child or a teenager. Even 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:18.560 she turned twenty and was still living in Mexico. The 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.760 teenagers she had once idolized were now adults too, and 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.840 locked up. Her other siblings wanted nothing to do with 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:31.760 our father's religion, but still she was keeping the faith. 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.520 Somehow her siblings would find their way back and we 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.400 would go back to normal and go back to establishing 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:46.080 the cult. Normal. For Gabriella, this wasn't teaching English and 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.839 Monterey Mexico wearing high heels. Normal, wasn't dating people raised 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:56.000 outside the colt. Normal was military training and gun running, 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.840 packing trucks with marijuana, and stealing cars to finance missions 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:10.960 to kill God's enemies. By the summer of news reached 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.160 her of Aaron's impending trial. It took place on June 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.080 twelfth in the same Houston courtroom where their siblings had 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.560 been convicted years before. I was like, he's in jail, 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:24.440 but he's not going to be convicted because God is 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.240 going to save him, get him out. Gabriella was convinced 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.360 Aaron would somehow be cleared and he'd return with her 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:38.160 to Mexico. But he got convicted. I was like, oh God, 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.920 Aaron got forty five years for his part in planning 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:47.360 the four o'clock killings. Gabriella traveled to Phoenix to visit 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.880 Aaron in prison. He wasn't just an older half brother 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:55.360 to her. He was still God's profit on Earth, the 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.320 person who knew their Father's opus, the Book of the 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.760 New Covenant like no other, the One Mighty and Strong. 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:08.000 Gabriella needed Aaron to reassure her about God's plan and 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.120 what was next for the Kingdom of God. And then 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:12.880 I went to visit him. He was like, I've been 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.680 atheists for a long time. The One Mighty and Strong 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.280 was an atheist. That's when I really lost my north Star. 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.520 Everything fell out of orbit, you know, it really like 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:28.440 that was very collapsing. So I lost my leader. I 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.920 didn't know what to do. It's like, I'm ready to 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.120 go back and build the colt, build a KG, but 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.120 where do I go? I'm alone? Where do I go? 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.840 Where do I talk to? What do I do? So 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.120 I prayed and I asked God to show me what 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.680 to do. We never got answers. Okay, so this is 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:50.920 a problem with this. Gabriella had a familiar feeling, like 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.400 the one she had staring into those flames in Monterrey 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.720 as her possessions burned in front of her in that 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:02.000 gesture to a God who was sighed went. And yet 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:08.480 even now in Gabriella still believed God was watching over her, 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.400 that all the killing had been for a reason to 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:19.040 build God's kingdom on earth. She hadn't lost faith. I 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:23.600 remember just having this really strong conclusion in my head. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.480 I was like, look, God, if you want me to 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.720 go and build the cold, build a COUCHI wasn't the cold, 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.960 it was the couch. I'm going to do it. I'm ready. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.720 I was so ready. Just tell me and I'll go. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.480 But meanwhile, I'm here, I don't know what to do. 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.160 You're not telling me what to do. So I'm just 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.800 gonna do whatever I want to do. And if I 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.240 do anything wrong, You'll have to forgive me. I know 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.320 that you always forgive the minute you're ready for me 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.600 to go back, just tell me what I need to do, 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.240 where I need to do, etcetera. But until then, like 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:10.080 starting now, I'm breaking free. I'm doing whatever I want settled. Okay, 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.720 how is off the hook? And yet there was a 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:18.120 reason Gabriella kept hope that maybe the Kog was still alive. 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:24.200 There was still one highly influential member of the cult 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:34.960 out there in the world. Tarsa Jackie. Tarsa le Baron 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.919 is the second oldest child of Irvil le Baron and 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:43.159 Laura Chanas Laurna you might remember, came from that backbone 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:48.359 family of Hervil's empire, the Channaths, daughter to Thelma, sister 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.720 to Victor, Mark, Dwayne, Rena, and Glenn, who I talked 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.760 to an episode three. The Kog had murdered Laura when 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.920 she tried to leave the cold back in eighty two, 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.560 Gabriella told me. At the time of that killing, most 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.480 of the children in Lahoya went and camped at the 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.199 beach for a few days to be away from the 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.640 horror show they knew was about to unfold. Ten years later, 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.520 when most of the Kog was rounded up in Arizona 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:22.000 after the four o'clock murders, Tarsa disappeared. She was wanted 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:27.800 for conspiracy to commit murder, witness tampering, and two racketeering charges, 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.639 but by the two thousand's she was still a fugitive 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.359 on the run from the law. With Tarsa at large, 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:41.240 detectives like Dick Forbes and prosecutors like David Schwinderman couldn't 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.480 be sure the bloody legacy of hervill La Baron was 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:49.440 really over. What if somehow the kog was still alive 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.880 carrying out the killings of the Book of the New Covenant. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:04.280 Law enforcement believed Tarsa was actually the colts mastermind, Tarsa 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.919 and Jacqueline was the one that was pushing all the buttons. 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:14.080 That's Houston homicide detective John Burmeister and Utah prosecutor David 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:19.800 Swinderman had a similar view. Tarsa, who is the matriarch instantially, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.760 the one that is the protector and preserver of the 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.720 Book of the New Covenant, drilling into these kids that 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.080 these things have to be done, and so they carry 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:34.359 out this mission. Gabriella also attested to Tarsa's devotion to 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.199 the Book of the New Covenants and the theology of 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.600 the cult. But she said that just because Tarsa was 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:45.199 devout didn't mean she ran the Kog. As prosecutors and 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:51.280 police believed Jackie was a hardcore extremist. She was definitely 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:59.680 a person that kept everything to the tea um. Whether 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.200 she could initiate and say we have to start doing 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:07.040 this as coming strictly from her, I believe that's a 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.880 little far fetched, because she's not that kind of personality. 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:17.040 And she got whipped so hard so many times. She 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.959 was just strictly slave labor and you had to submit, 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.040 and she submitted willingly because she believed that she had 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:31.159 to obey the authority. It's perspectives like this on Kog 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.919 members from Gabriella that have changed how I've seen this 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:39.080 whole saga. Rather than seeing the cult members as these 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:45.560 powerful assassins with near superhuman powers of evasion, a picture 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.160 emerges from Gabriella of the scared children they had once 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:54.800 been reacting to the routine killing all around them, carried 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:59.680 out by their own family making decisions by committee, with 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:05.240 no single person steering the ship. Not Hebrew, not Aaron, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:15.239 and certainly not Tarsa. When I ran this perspective by 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.760 law enforcement. Well, it's not that they flat out disagreed. 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:24.159 In fact, many concurred that the kids who grew up 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.560 in the cult had been products of their environment and 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.119 a warped theology. But they also pointed out to me 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:36.679 that the kog are well documented liars and manipulators. And 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.520 they asked me, how do you know that what you're 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:44.000 being told is true? It's hard to say. If you 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.840 look at the cult collectively, I can see it, yeah, 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.080 But to be fair, you could easily say the same 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:55.439 about cops collectively too. And anyway, when it comes to 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.480 which version of Tarsa is most accurate, someone pushing all 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:03.919 the button or a reluctant and passive cult member, maybe 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.720 the answer lies with the next group of law enforcement 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:13.440 officials to encounter Jackie Tarsa LeBaron. My name is Ted Imperado. 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.399 I'm an assistant United States Attorney in the Southern District 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.640 of Texas located in Houston. My name is Rick Haynes. 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.040 I'm an assistant United States attorney, been a federal prosecutor 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:29.760 for nineteen years. And all you wanted to know how 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:34.000 old I am, I'm sixty two. Rick and Ted are 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.720 prosecutors kind of a double act. We've known each other 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:40.919 since ninety three and then we came up together in 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.760 the State d A's office. We always tried cases together. 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.120 They were introduced to Tarsa in two thousand ten when 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.960 an unusual case was thrown their way. The criminal chief 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.359 came to us and said, hey, um, we've tried to 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.119 get some other prosecutors to work this case, but nobody's 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.000 wants to work it. Um. I think there was concerned 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.880 with the case because of its history. This history goes 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.800 way back, and I think the prosecutors, the two that 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:09.000 turned it down, were familiar with the case and we're 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:12.160 a little bit concerned for their safety. The case all 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:16.280 centered on a fugitive who had suddenly been found after 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.359 twenty years on the run. The fugitive daughter of a 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.960 polygamous sect leader is in custody tonight. Jacquelin Tarsa le 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:29.000 Baron faces charges in a nineteen quadruple killing. One of 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.560 the victims, an eight year old girl. It is Rick 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.119 and Ted took the case and they learned more about 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.520 Tarsa Tarsa LeBaron. It was her name is Jackie, but 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.400 everyone referred to as Tarsa for over a decade she'd 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:45.000 lived in hiding in Honduras. But then in two thousand 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.760 and ten she had lived in Honduras long enough that 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:54.080 she could apply for public assistance welfare if you will, 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:59.160 And it was during the point that she was registering 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:04.439 for that that they did a records check and found 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:08.320 she had this warrant out. The last fugitive of the 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:13.480 Kog had been found. She was then extradited and now 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.200 was going to face those charges relating to the four 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:20.119 o'clock murders that had sent her siblings to prison. She 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:25.400 was described to us by various members of the family 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.040 when we interviewed them as being kind of a driving 0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:36.840 force in terms of keeping alive her father's point of 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:43.240 view and the contents of the Book of the New Covenant. 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:47.240 But then they got to meet Tarsa in person and 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:51.960 the reality of this quote unquote driving force that confronted them. 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.880 She looked like a long tailed cat in a room 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:58.760 full of rocking chairs. She was scared of her own shadow. 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:08.119 She was not the Jacqueline Tarsa le Baron that we 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:12.719 deal with when we talk about what happened in and 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:17.640 in the years prior. So that's the person that we met. 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:21.960 That's not the person that we learned about and read 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:26.840 about as we investigated the case, and Rick and Ted 0:25:26.920 --> 0:25:32.280 were in for a few more surprises. It was just 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:37.320 so unusual. It was unusual when it happened, and it 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:41.560 didn't stop being unusual on the day that she was sentenced. 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:56.320 That's coming up after the break. On June six, two eleven, 0:25:56.440 --> 0:26:01.720 Jackie LeBaron reached a plea agreement with prosecutors. Her sentencing 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:07.040 hearing began in September two eleven. As prosecutors Rick and 0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:10.119 Ted entered a courtroom packed with press and members the public, 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:13.399 there was one person seated there. They were surprised to 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:20.399 see Cynthia LeBaron. Cynthia, you'll remember, had grown up in 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:23.000 the Kingdom of God, but had turned on her brothers 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:25.760 and sisters in ninety two because she feared they're going 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:30.560 to kill her. Cynthia has testified against family members Hebrew, 0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:33.240 serving a life sentence because of her multiple life sentences, 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:37.720 so is Patricia. Cynthia had broken down in tears at Hebrew, 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:41.880 Patricia and Doug Barlow's trial as she gave damning evidence 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:45.399 against them, and in ninety three she had entered a 0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:50.960 witness Protection program. Now she was in court again, seeing 0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:54.920 another sibling cult members sentenced on the back of her evidence. 0:26:55.560 --> 0:26:59.560 Yet Cynthia is still, I believe, a love part of 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:03.520 the family. Um. They're very close knit, they support each other, 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:09.480 They're extremely loyal to each other. Cynthia had switched sides 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:14.520 again and was now sitting back amongst the Labaron clan. 0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:21.960 I think, oddly enough, this whole investigation into Jacqueline Tarsa 0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:25.879 kind of brought them back together, and they kind of 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:28.119 got to convince each other that they weren't going to 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:36.440 kill each other. The family were back together, the ones 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:40.640 that weren't in prison anyway, surviving children and former wives 0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:44.640 of hervil LeBaron, but they weren't there as cult members. 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:48.439 They were there to support Tarsa before her sentence was 0:27:48.480 --> 0:27:53.560 handed down. This group included Rhenichinov, who at this point 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:55.639 had taken in some of the orphan kids from the 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:59.040 kog to help them build a life outside the colt. 0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:03.320 It was September eight, two eleven, when the judge handed 0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:07.199 down his sentence and Rick and ted we're in for 0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:13.200 their final surprise. Tarsa was sentenced to three years in prison. 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:16.800 What was the atmosphere like during the sentencing. What do 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:21.080 you remember about that moment? I was pissed off Rick. 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:24.600 Rick spoke to the judge during the sentencing. Rick made 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:28.560 our recommendation. The judge disagreed with our recommendation, and then 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.160 Rick and he got it had a debate about that. 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:34.560 Rick thought she should have been given more time, and 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:37.680 he told the judge that straight up. But as both 0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:41.360 he and Ted pointed out to me, in hindsight, there 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:45.080 wasn't much more the judge could have done. The benchmark 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:48.440 in sentencing had been set by the punishment handed down 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:54.040 to Richard LeBaron back in October. Richard, who had killed 0:28:54.080 --> 0:28:56.280 an eight year old child and by this point in 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:59.640 two thousand eleven had been out of prison for years. 0:29:00.440 --> 0:29:05.160 The judge actually went very low. He gave him five 0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:10.120 years five years in prison for killing a little girl 0:29:10.360 --> 0:29:14.640 and her father, and that that gives me heartburn to 0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:23.120