1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and today we are going to 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 3: begin a look at the hoof, the animal hoof, specifically 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 3: the horse hoof. Rob how did you get interested in this? 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: Well, I was in New York last week with my family, 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 2: went to the American Natural History Museum, and I was 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: looking at fossils and bones, and I was captivated by 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 2: some of the some of the bones of the horse 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: and started thinking about the hoof and just how strange 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: the hoof is. Yet yet at the same time, we 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: kind of take it for granted, because even if you 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: are not a person who lives among horses and cares 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: for horses, horses are everywhere in our imagery and our 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: iconography and our entertainment. You can scarcely be a video 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: game player at all without having mounted a horse, or 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: lost a horse, or accidentally driven a horse off a 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: cliff or up a wall at some point. So I 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: was I was really taken by this, like I had 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: not really in my life set aside any time to 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 2: just consider the utter weirdness of the horse hoof. 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 3: I almost feel like the weirdness of the horse hoof 24 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 3: is embodied in the sound of the horse galloping, and 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 3: how different that is from the sound of the movement 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: and most other animals you'd think about. 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's like the drumming of fingers on 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: a table, right, Yeah, like that's that's that's an attempting 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: direction to go in anyway. Yeah, I feel like it's 30 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: it's all too easy to take the hoof for granted, 31 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: even in literature. You know, I was thinking, well, we can, 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: we can kick off this episode with a nice little 33 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: quote or a little reading from something that kind of captures, 34 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: you know, our current level of fascination with the hoof, 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: But I really wasn't able to find much. Now again, 36 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: horses and hooves are just throughout human literature. They're everywhere, 37 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: and there are a lot of literary references to the 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: to hooves and the sound of hooves. One poem in particular, 39 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: in particular that I found that I ultimately didn't like 40 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: well enough to feature in the Cold Open, but it's 41 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: still notable, is The hoofs of the Horses by William 42 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: Henry Ogilvy, who lived eighteen sixty nine through nineteen sixty three. 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're familiar with this poem, Joe, 44 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 2: but it's just all about how much he just absolutely 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: loves the cadence of horse hooves. 46 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 3: No, I was not familiar with this poem before you 47 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 3: did share it with me. It is it's an almost 48 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 3: comical level of appreciation for horse hooves, an attitude very 49 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: much of I'll stop thinking about the sound of horse 50 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 3: hooves when I'm dead, or maybe I won't. When I'm dead, 51 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 3: I'll still dream of them even in the grave. It's 52 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 3: also it goes with the plural. I looked it up 53 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 3: to see is there any difference hooves versus hoofs, and 54 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: it seems like no, I both have been used in English. 55 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 3: I think hoofs with the F plural is more archaic. 56 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: Usually, this is one of those poems that you know, 57 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: sometimes I read a really good rhyming poem with great cadence, 58 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: and you know, I'm like, why don't we rhyme our 59 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: poems anymore? You know, all poems should rhyme. This is great. 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: This is the opposite end of the spectrum for me, 61 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: Like this one's just kind of goofy like it starts 62 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: off the hoofs of the horses. Oh, witching and sweet 63 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 2: is the music Earth steals from the ironshod feet, yeah, 64 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: et cetera. So it's not to my liking, but I 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: can understand where someone else might might love it as 66 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: much as this man loved horse hoofs. Well. 67 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: It also commits the ultimate sin of rhyming above with love. 68 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: That's you can't you can't come back from that. 69 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: But again, it is not the only account of hooves 70 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: or mention of hooves in literature. Shakespeare writes of horses 71 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: quote printing their proud hoofs in the Receiving Earth. Other 72 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 2: quotes speak of the violence of the hoof, a thing 73 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: that imprints the soil or even the flesh of those 74 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: fallen in war. Here's a bit from the Jackery, a 75 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: fragment by Sidney Lanier who lived eighteen forty two through 76 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: eighteen eighty one. Midst of the crowd Old Grisgrion the Maimed, 77 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: a wretched wreck that fate had floated out from the 78 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: deer storm of battle at Poci. A living man whose 79 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: larger moiety was dead and buried on the battlefield. A 80 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 2: grizzly trunk without arms or legs and scarred with hoof 81 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 2: cuts over cheek and brow lay in his wicker cradle smiling, 82 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 2: And then later on in the same scene, the protagonists 83 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: comments that quote there is no face of man or 84 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: woman here, but showeth print of the hard hoof of war. 85 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's fair. As much as we can 86 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: admire hoofs from afar, I don't think you want to 87 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: come into contact with by way of force. 88 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: No, no, absolutely you didn't absolutely do not want to 89 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: be kicked by a horse. On one level, just for 90 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: sheer strength and power of said kick or or the 91 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: weight of said step. But also yeah, the hoof as well, 92 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 2: explain is it's not an instrument you want make in 93 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: contact with your body with force or speed. Now, there are, 94 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: of course many references to the hoof and the works 95 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: of Cormick McCarthy, the none that I could remember or 96 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: search up that really goes in deep on the weirdness 97 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: and wonder of the horse hoof. Still, here's a favorite 98 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 2: from Blood Meridian quote under the hoofs of the horses, 99 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: the alabaster sand shaped itself in whirls, strangely symmetric like 100 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: iron filings in a field, and these shapes flared and 101 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: drew back again, resonating upon that harmonic ground, and then 102 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 2: turning to swirl away over the plaia, as if the 103 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: very sediment of things contained yet some residue of scentiens, 104 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: as if in the trendsit of those riders were a 105 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: thing so profoundly terrible as to register even to the 106 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: uttermost granulation of reality. Wow. Yeah, so great line. But also, 107 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 2: you know, Cormack doesn't rest, doesn't really go in hard 108 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 2: on just how weird it is that horses are strange 109 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: mammals running around on highly evolved like finger bones, Like 110 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: there's a there's a weirdness to the hoof that you 111 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: know that he doesn't he even doesn't get into, because 112 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: it's just such a part of, say, the tapestry of 113 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: the American West, you know, in the case of his Westerns. 114 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: It's also possible that I'm forgetting some some key line 115 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: and another of his book, maybe the you know, the 116 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: All the Pretty Horses or one of its sequels. But nothing, 117 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: nothing came to mind or in search when I was 118 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: thinking about it just the other day. 119 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 3: Well, maybe here is an amazing place to start. If 120 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 3: you want to consider the more granular anatomy of the 121 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 3: horse's foot and the hoof. Uh So, look look at 122 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 3: your hands there. You know you get human hands and 123 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: extend the middle fingers on both of your hands. Obviously, 124 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 3: not if you're. 125 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: In prospectible things. 126 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, in p you know, discreetly extend those two 127 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: middle fingers. These are the analogous bone structures that evolved 128 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: in the horse to become the part of the horse's 129 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: body that makes contact with the ground. So when horses gallop, 130 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: they are galloping on adapted versions of your middle fingers. 131 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 3: So you just imagine running out of that middle your 132 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: two middle fingers in front, your two middle toes in 133 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 3: the back. Uh, those got really thick, really strong. Everything 134 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: else kind of shrank back and receded in a way. 135 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: We can talk later on about whether it makes sense 136 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 3: to say that the horse still has those other fingers 137 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: in some way or not. But basically that the part 138 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: of the the leg that is making contact with the 139 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: ground and supporting the weight of the horse is the 140 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: middle finger. 141 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is just absolutely bonkers when you stop and 142 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: think about it. 143 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 3: It is. And the genus T which horses belong is 144 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: unique in this regard among the ungulates. So all of 145 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: the four legged vertebrates on earth that live on land 146 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: share a common ancestor that had five toes on each 147 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: foot had four legs and five toes on each foot. 148 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 3: That's our heritage, and we walk around on two legs now. 149 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 3: But we are still we're still part of that evolutionary lineage. 150 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: We still have five fingers on our hands and five 151 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: toes on our feet to show for it. But some 152 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: of our cousins in this lineage have undergone more radical 153 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 3: transformations in the bone structure of these distal regions of 154 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 3: the limbs, the ends of each limb. Hippopotamuses, for example, 155 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: have four toes, rhinoceroses and tapers have three toes. Camels, deer, sheep, goats, 156 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 3: and cattle have two toes. But there is only one 157 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: group of animals existing today that has evolved to have 158 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: a single toe that contacts the ground on each foot, 159 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: and that is horses, or more precisely, the evolutionary group 160 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,119 Speaker 3: to which modern horses belong, which is the genus equus, 161 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: which includes horses, zebras, and donkeys. And the scientific term 162 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: for having only one toe is monodactyally, So these monodactyls 163 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 3: are out there running around on their middle fingers that 164 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 3: when you hear hoof beats, that's what you're hearing, the 165 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: middle fingers. 166 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: And you know, again this is super weird and glorious. 167 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: But at the same time, it would be a mistake 168 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: to think of this as a kind of simplification, you know, 169 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: because the horse hoof will be discussing here is anything, 170 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: but it's a complex structure composed of hard cornified structures, 171 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: living tissues, tendons, ligaments. 172 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 4: And more. 173 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: You know, there are the various bones we're going to 174 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: be discussing. We should you know, also not make the 175 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: mistake of overestimating the strength of the hoof, because yes, 176 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: it's a highly evolved anatomical feature that serves a horse 177 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: very well in its natural environment, but they are still 178 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: susceptible to injury and illness, and you know, the ravages 179 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: of aging plus domestication by humans has of course augmented 180 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: the horse's natural environment and also changed the sort of 181 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: regular wear and tear that they might endure on set hoofs. 182 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: So to just doing what I'm gonna do is going 183 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: to provide kind of an overview of the different parts 184 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: of the main outer and inner parts of the horse, 185 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: hoof of the foot of the horse. Not in a 186 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 2: way that will just completely bombard the listener with horse terminology, 187 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: but hopefully get across some of the complexity here. And 188 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: if you are a horse person, and I don't know, 189 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 2: maybe you're listening to this podcast whilst you attend to 190 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: the hoofs of a horse, well you might have some 191 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: added information to write into us about. If you're not 192 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: a horse person, then I think you might find some 193 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 2: of the terminology kind of surprising. I know, not being 194 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: a horse person myself. There there. I remember the first 195 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: time I read Cornick McCarthy's Blood Meridian, there was there 196 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: was a bit that really threw me for a curve. 197 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: It goes as follows quote. He got down and drew 198 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,599 Speaker 2: up the horse's leg. The frog of the hoof was 199 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: split and bloody, and the animal's shoulder quivered. He let 200 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: the hoof down. The sun was about two hours high, 201 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,479 Speaker 2: and now there was dust on the horizon. 202 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound good. 203 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 3: The frog of the hoof. 204 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: Yep, the frog of the hoof. So the frog is 205 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: a is a key part of the outer anatomy of 206 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: the horse's foot. This is a wedge shaped mass on 207 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: the bottom of the horse's foot that you know, I suppose, 208 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: kind of looks like a dark frog. According to Robert C. 209 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: McClure at all in a paper titled Functional Anatomy of 210 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: the horse Foot. This was for the University of Missouri, 211 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: the frog is one of the flexible parts of the 212 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: hoof's external structures. It normally makes contact with the ground first, 213 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: and then it kind of like pushes into the digital cushion, 214 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: an internal mass of flexible material above the frog that 215 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 2: contributes to the formation of the heels and serves as 216 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: one of the primary shock absorbers in the horse's foot. 217 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 3: This is an interesting balance to observe with the hoof 218 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: here in that it has a so the outer mass 219 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 3: of the hoof that you will have observed before you know, 220 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: the hard part is a hard carrat in structure, and 221 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: yet the hoof also has to remain somewhat springy and flexible. 222 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: You don't want it to be like a piece of 223 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: concrete that might be really hard but on sufficient impact 224 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: is rigid and cracks. 225 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, again, it would be a gross simplification to 226 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: think of a horse as just running around on like 227 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 2: wooden stilt legs, you know, like that its hoofs are 228 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: just like solid things. It's a lot more complicated than that. 229 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: Now you might be wondering, well, why do they call 230 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 2: it a frog? You may be looking it up to 231 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: see just how much like a frog it, you know, 232 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: to what degree it resembles a frog. I've seen it 233 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: sort of described a couple of different ways that either 234 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: it does roughly look like a frog, and that perhaps 235 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: there's this added level of well, you find it under 236 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: the hoof in the same way a frog might be 237 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: found under a rock or leaf. I don't know. Maybe 238 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 2: I've also heard that it really more accurately resembles the 239 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: pelvic bone of a frog, which apparently was carried for 240 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: good luck by horsemen. And this also might be tied 241 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: to traditions of the horseshoe, which we're not going to 242 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: really discuss in this episode, but we may get to 243 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 2: in a subsequent episode these of horseshoes as lucky charms 244 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: as well. 245 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 3: Interesting. Okay, I just looked up the pelvic bone of 246 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 3: a frog. It kind of looks like the wishbone on 247 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 3: a chicken. So yeah, I don't know. And I'm looking 248 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 3: at the frog of a hoof Now it's sort of 249 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: v shaped. Uh, you have to you have to stretch 250 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: your mind a little bit. But I could see that. 251 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: Now the frog is apparently made up of the same 252 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: material as the hoof wall. More on what do we 253 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: mean by hoofball in the second, But you can think 254 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: like the outer hoof as you see it, But it's 255 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: more moist certainly if it's healthy, apparently something like fifty 256 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: percent moisture or thereabouts. Now, And that's not to say 257 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: that the hoof wall itself is dry. In fact, the 258 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: hoof wall or the proper you know hoof that you 259 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: see if you're just looking at a picture of a horse, 260 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: it's in fact covered with material that prevents moisture loss. 261 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: And with domestic horses, hoof paint is sometimes added as 262 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: well to help contain moisture. So again, even the hardest 263 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: part of the of the horses hoof cannot be really 264 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: thought of as just this, you know, like you rock, 265 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: you know, hard substance, like it's in these these are 266 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: you know, organic structures, and there is moisture to them. 267 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 3: And with the keratin basis. I think you could probably 268 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: think about it more akin to like a like a 269 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: horn or like a thick fingernail exactly. 270 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, the frog, interestingly enough, is also a scent gland, 271 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: along with the chestnut of the leg and the airgut 272 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: of the fetlock. This is one of the reasons that 273 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: dogs can track horses as well as they can. Plus 274 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: is apparently one of the ways that horses sniff out 275 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: each other in the field. 276 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: I had no idea. 277 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a hole. There's a hole just un right 278 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: underneath the horse's hoof. There's a whole wonderland of weirdness. 279 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: Well, this is funny because we were just talking about beavers, 280 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: which apparently, you know, their scent glands and scent markings 281 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: play a big role in their their behavior and how 282 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 3: they interact with the environment. But I had no idea 283 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 3: that was true of horses. 284 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, as we're discuss in a bit horse hoofs, 285 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: the hard part of the hoof grows throughout their life 286 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: and has to either be worn down or trim down. 287 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: This is where professional farriers come into play with domestic horses, 288 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: and not only do they have to trim the hoof 289 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: proper but they also have to trim the frog as 290 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: it keeps growing as well, and if not maintained, it 291 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: can lead to some infections conditions like thrush and so forth. 292 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: I'm also told by horse and dog people in my 293 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: family that dogs absolutely love it when their friendly neighborhood 294 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: ferry or gives them some hoof or some frog shavings 295 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: to eat. Joe, has this ever been your experience? 296 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: No, I never had a dog get this particular treat, 297 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: but I can imagine it's in the ballpark. 298 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: All right. So, moving outward from the frog, it pushes 299 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: against the digital cushion, and when the foot is on 300 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: the ground, the increase in pressure and change and shape 301 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: in the digital cushion and the frog. It kind of 302 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: works everything like a pump forcing blood from the foot 303 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: into the leg. And the clure stresses that quote exercise 304 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: increases the blood circulation in the foot and favors good 305 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: hoof growth. Lack of exercise, dryness of the horny wall, 306 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: and poor nutrition inhibit hoof growth. All right, So let's 307 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: get to that hoof wall. The hoof wall is exactly 308 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: what it sounds like. It's that tough, horny outside part 309 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: of the hoof that's essentially a fingernail. I mean, if 310 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: we're comparing it to what we've got going on, it 311 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: contains no blood, vessels or nerves, and it grows continuously, 312 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 2: so it has to be worn or trimmed off. And 313 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: to be specific, the hoof wall grows out of the 314 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: cornet located at the junction of the skin and the 315 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: hoof wall. So if you're just looking at a picture 316 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: of a horse's foot, like this is where hoof ends, 317 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 2: and like you know, the hairy part of the leg 318 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 2: begins now along with the frog and the bar which 319 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 2: is part of the wall aka bars of the wall 320 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: bordering the frog. It's a key weight bearing part of 321 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: the hoof. The wall is made up of the toe 322 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: in the front, quarters on the sides, and the heel. Now, 323 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: the interior of the hoof, inside the hoof wall, you 324 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: can almost think of, is kind of like this little 325 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: kind of U shaped walled city. Is the sole separated 326 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 2: from the wall by the white line or the golden 327 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: line where the inner wall and the sole joined together. 328 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: The soul does not make contact with the ground and 329 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: it primarily protects the inner structures beneath it. So these 330 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: are all you know, things, with the exception of the 331 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: digital cushion that we reference, like, these are all things 332 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: that you would see if you were a if you 333 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: were just attending to a horse's foot, if you you know, 334 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: we're checking out a horseshoe or what have you. Now, again, 335 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: the hoof is a complex structure, and I'm not going 336 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 2: to attempt to cover every detail of it. Instead, hopefully 337 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: we can cover the key parts of the internet or 338 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: hoof here and provide like a decent audio snapshot of 339 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 2: what it consists of. And I realize, even with all 340 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: the you know, the terminology we're going through, it still 341 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: might make sense to look up a diagram to see 342 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 2: exactly what we're talking about. 343 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: Now. 344 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: Internally, it's of course essential to over the phalanxes and phalanges, 345 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: essentially the finger bones that make up the hoof, and 346 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 2: the first of these to cover really is the famous 347 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 2: coffin bone, which is also known as the petal bone 348 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 2: or the distal phalanx or p three. It's contained in 349 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 2: the hoof capsule and provides its shape. It contains no 350 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 2: bone marrow, but it has a lot of blood vessels, 351 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: and the name apparently has to do with the fact 352 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: that it's entirely seated within the hoof wall, in the 353 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: interior of the hoof, as if it were positioned within 354 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: a coffin. It does not look like a coffin per se. 355 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 3: The fact that it seems to be positioned within a coffin, 356 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 3: shouldn't that make it the corpse bone rather than the 357 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: coffin bone or the cadaver bone, you. 358 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: Would think, you would think, I don't know. I couldn't 359 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: run down any additional information on where this comes from 360 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 2: other than just like you know, the built up lingo 361 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: of horse people over time. So if we have horse 362 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: people out there listening to the show that have more 363 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: insight on this, certainly right end, Oh, please be gentle. 364 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 2: We are used to working with horses. Of course they're 365 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: gonna they're gonna be gentle. Okay. Now, more broadly, the 366 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 2: pedal bone is the bottommost bone in the front and 367 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 2: rear legs of horses, cattle, pigs, and other ruminants. Then 368 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: there's the navicular bone, uh so named because it's shaped 369 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 2: like a boat, and looking at images of it, at 370 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 2: least from the horse, I thought it also reminds me 371 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: a bit of a whale's tail as well. But I'm 372 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: to understand. It's named this because it looks kind of 373 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: like a boat. It's also known as the distal sesamoid bone. 374 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: Most mammals have a navicular bone in their feet. Then 375 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 2: there's also the short pastern bone or middle phalanx. Its 376 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: positioned to top the articulating joint of the pedal bone, 377 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: with only the bottom portion extending to the hoof capsule, 378 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: essentially a fingerbone. So I don't know to what extent 379 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 2: all that accurately conveyed the complexity and the beauty of 380 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: a horse's hoof. Of a horse's foot, but I guess, 381 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: if anything, it should remind you like the horse hoof, 382 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: easy to draw, but far more complicated than you might think. 383 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: Well, another way to look at it is like if 384 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 3: you look up a diagram of the bones in the 385 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: horse's hoof, It's not just like a straight bone down 386 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 3: to the ground ending in a nail. There are actually 387 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: a lot of bones, little bones crammed up in there, 388 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 3: kind of in the same way that you would see 389 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: a lot of little bones making up the human hand, 390 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: except in the case of a horse, it has been 391 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 3: streamlined into one more continuous vertical structure or column, with 392 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 3: the different bones kind of supporting each other in that 393 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 3: column as opposed to in the hand the way these 394 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 3: bones are kind of fanned out. Yes, Now, Rob, before 395 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 3: we got recording today, you sent me a picture of 396 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,719 Speaker 3: a famous horse from I was going to say history, 397 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 3: but maybe better to say legend. The meat point of 398 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 3: legend and history. That really revealed something to me, and 399 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: it's that there are certain features that are often quite 400 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: surprising to discover, are really unsettling to find on an animal. 401 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 3: One example is if you see human teeth on a 402 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 3: non human animal, like a cat with human teeth, somebody 403 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: photoshops that together. It's horrifying. You don't want to see it, 404 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 3: and it's kind of surprising how horrifying it is. And 405 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 3: I discovered a new one today when you shared this 406 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 3: picture with me, and it is a horse with human feet. 407 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 3: Don't like it. Something's unpleasant about that. It's not a 408 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 3: good vibe. 409 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. This is an engraving from sixteen eighty seven, attributed 410 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: to P. Trocial. You can look this image up. I'll 411 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: have to share it on some of our socials or something, 412 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: because it's terrific and also a little bit horrifying because 413 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: the forefeet of the horse are human feet or something 414 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 2: close to human feet with with clearly visible multiple toes, 415 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: like five human toes per foot. It does not make 416 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: sense to look at This does not seem like a 417 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: good variation on the equine form. You know, it's not like, oh, 418 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 2: like a centaur where you can be like, well, it's 419 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 2: like a horse and a rider as one. You know, 420 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: you can run around, it can shoot arrows, that's great. 421 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: Like No, this is a situation where you're immediately thinking, 422 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: shouldn't those front feet and they have shoes on or something? 423 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: How is this force going to gallop? All sorts of 424 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: questions and problems emerge. 425 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 3: You're exactly right now, this is a cat with human teeth. 426 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 3: It doesn't look like it should work, and it doesn't 427 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 3: look nice. However, I will say other things about this horse, 428 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: and I guess in a minute we'll have to reveal 429 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: what historical horse this is supposed to be. But first, 430 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: just allow me to describe this is a hair metal horse. 431 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 3: It has a tail and domain that are luxurious, glorious, 432 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: voluminous hair just waving in the wind. You can imagine 433 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 3: this source really getting on a guitar solo, playing with 434 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 3: striper or something and then also, this horse has it 435 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: appears to me forward facing eyes horses. I don't know, 436 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 3: it doesn't quite get the horse face right. 437 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the artist was already having to draw 438 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 2: those feet on this horse, so I think we can 439 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: forgive them if they maybe didn't put a maximum amount 440 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: of effort into the face. 441 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 3: Oh. I'm not holding a grudge against p trocil here, 442 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 3: but forward facing eyes implies that this horse is a 443 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 3: predatory carnivore, which makes me think it is one of 444 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 3: the Diamedean mirrors or you know, the flesh eating mirrors 445 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 3: of ancient Greek legend. 446 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 2: It made me think too, of the horse that ucla 447 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: the mock Rides and thunder of the Barbarian if anyone 448 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: remembers that old Hanna Barbara cartoon. 449 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: I had to look that up when you said it, 450 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 3: I wasn't familiar. But that's like it's kind of a 451 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 3: dinosaur insectoid kind of horse. 452 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, a monster horse, you see, especially, sort of like 453 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: some old timey side in fantasy. 454 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 3: But okay, what's the deal with this horse? Who is 455 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 3: this horse with human feed in the front. 456 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: This is none other than Julius Caesar's horse, sometimes referenced 457 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: by the name as Turkus or Astracus, but the horse's 458 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: actual name, whatever it might have been, seems to have 459 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 2: mostly been lost to history. I don't know that it 460 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: has a definite name. It's very much in the vein 461 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: in the tradition of say, Alexander the Great's horse Bucephalus, 462 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: that one's a more famous horse. That also ties back 463 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: in in a bit. This also tends to be part 464 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: of the general tradition in the Greco Roman culture of 465 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 2: having like a great leader riding a great steed into 466 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: battle that only they can mount, that is much loved, 467 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 2: that will of course eventually die and will be remembered 468 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 2: and so forth. But also there's this idea of like 469 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 2: a something strange about a horse. There's some sort of ay, 470 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: a portent of future success or in some cases dire 471 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: omens tied up in the strange anatomy of certain creatures, 472 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: especially the horse. But anyway, so where does this come from, 473 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: this idea that there's this this horse by according to 474 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 2: various sources, that had human feet in the front, or 475 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: it had some sort of toes in the front. I 476 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: had a time sort of trying to find any actual 477 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: source on this, but a lot of it comes back 478 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 2: to what the Roman imperial historian Sutanius had to say 479 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: about it. This particular historian lived sixty nine through one 480 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: twenty two CE. Here's what he wrote. Quote, he wrote, 481 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 2: a very remarkable horse, with feet almost like those of 482 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 2: a man, the hoofs being divided in such a manner 483 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: as to have some resemblance to toes. This horse he 484 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 2: had bred himself, and the soothsayers, having interpreted these scumstances 485 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 2: into an omen that its owner would be master of 486 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: the world. He brought him up with particular care and 487 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: broke him in himself, as the horse would suffer no 488 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: one else to mount him. A statue of the horse 489 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 2: was afterwards erected by Caesar's order before the temple of 490 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: Venus Genetrix. Ah. 491 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: That would be the temple of the Venus of motherhood, 492 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 3: the venus of the as the founder of the family. 493 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 3: I wonder what that would have to do with the horse. 494 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: Well, I guess maybe it has to do with with 495 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: like the rearing and the breaking of the horse, that 496 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 2: he's kind of like the mother of the horse. Maybe 497 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 2: it means a female horse. And I'm not sure exactly 498 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: why that particular temple interesting. So anyway, some illustrations, as 499 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 2: much like the one we've discussed already, depict this as 500 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 2: just a straight up monster horse with human feet in 501 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 2: the front, which I love. But a more reasonable interpretation 502 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: is that this was a polydactyl horse, much in the 503 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: same way that you will occasionally find you know, you'll find, say, 504 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: like a polydactyl cat, or of course polydactyl digits in 505 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 2: human beings as well. I found an eighteen seventy nine 506 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: paper on the general topic of polydactyl horses by o'thaniel 507 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: Charles Marsh titled Polydactyl Horse's Recent and Extinct. He writes, quote, 508 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: numerous cases of extra digits in the horse have been recorded, 509 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: and in nearly all of them, a single lateral hooflet 510 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: was present on one of the four legs. In most instances, 511 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: the occurrence was noted chiefly on account of its rarity, 512 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: and no record was made of the exact position of 513 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: the extra hoofs with reference to the main digit, nor 514 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: the significance of these useless appendages. 515 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: Oh okay, So the idea here would be that if 516 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 3: there is anything to the story that Swetonius tells about 517 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 3: Caesar's horse. It might be just that the horse did 518 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: actually have extra toes, not that it had feet that 519 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 3: looked like a human's feet, but that it was a 520 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: case of polydactyle in this horse exactly. 521 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems to be like the more likely the interpretation. 522 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: It's also worth noting, I believe Marsh mentions this as well, 523 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: that some accounts may have indicated that Alexander the Great's 524 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: horse Bucephalus was also polydactyl, in which case, if that 525 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 2: was a you know, that was an idea already present 526 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: that would of course inform either the selection or interpretation 527 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: of a polydactyl horse for another great general. So you know, 528 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: we have to take that into account as well. And 529 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: again this general idea that if there's something strange going 530 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: on with a with an organism, there might be something 531 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: about it that is that is a beneficial importent for 532 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: the receiving individual. I believe we touched on one of 533 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: these stories regarding if not Caesar or another Roman emperor 534 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: in pre in episodes over the last couple of years, 535 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: and I don't think believe it was a horse. It 536 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: was some other animal that was brought before the general 537 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: and said hey, look at this weird creature and there 538 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: everyone was like, this is great. This means this means 539 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: the campaign going. 540 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 3: Well, okay, folks, we just had to take a second 541 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 3: to dig this up because it was too good of 542 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: a memory. No, this was something from our Goats episode, 543 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 3: right that we did last October. 544 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: That's right, right, Yeah, this concerned a goat creature that 545 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: was brought to Sola, and it was I think the 546 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 2: main interpretation was like, yeah, this is great, this is 547 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,479 Speaker 2: a this is an omen this means that we're going 548 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 2: to be successful in the campaign. 549 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 3: It was like somebody found a half man, half goat 550 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: in a cave somewhere and then they're like, hey, look 551 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 3: at this. 552 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it made horrible sounds, et cetera. So go back 553 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: and listen to that episode if you want the full 554 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: story on that, and just goats in general, the cloven 555 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: hoof as opposed to the. 556 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 4: Horse hoof, that feeling when you find a goat man 557 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 4: in a cave and you know everything's going to be 558 00:30:47,800 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 4: all right. 559 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: All right, anyway, back to back to Marsh here, Marsh 560 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: noted that and I didn't look for other sources on this, 561 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: but it kind of casually he mentions that the indigenous 562 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 2: peoples of the Americas were said to have described the 563 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: horse when the Spanish arrived as the beast with one fingernail, 564 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: which of course is rather correct as as we've been discussing. 565 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: And then Marsh goes on to point out that there 566 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: are two slender splint bones within the hoof, the remnants 567 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: of two other toes belonging to the ancestors of the 568 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: modern horse. Now Marsh points out a few other key 569 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: facts that I think are worth mentioning here. The forefeet 570 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 2: are the most affected. When you look at accounts in 571 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 2: the records of polydactyl horses, it's almost always the fore feet, 572 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: and of course this would match up with the story 573 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: of Caesar's horse. Also, the additional hooves or if you 574 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: want to call them, toes, seem to generally amount to 575 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: one or two, so you're maybe looking at three toes 576 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 2: maximum on a four on a front hoof, though it's 577 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: not necessarily an equal amount on both four feet, so 578 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: like one there's a for instance, there's an account that 579 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: he points to where an animal had two hooves on 580 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: one and three on the other, so one extra on 581 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: one four foot and two extra on the other four 582 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: foot some of the horses, and this is English. This 583 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: is not getting into you know, in any translations here, 584 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: but in English, some of these were described as having 585 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: eight hooves or the like, thus counting all of the 586 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: hoofs on the animal. So this is just me, but 587 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: I can imagine first of all, a three toed four 588 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: foot reminding one of a human foot, looking at it 589 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: and being like, oh, it's kind of like toes. Look 590 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 2: there are three of them. I can likewise imagine some 591 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: manner of telephone game deviation occurring when describing a horse 592 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: and saying, oh, it had it had five toes. Well, 593 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: what do you mean by that? Do you mean that 594 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: it just has a single extra hooflet on one of 595 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: its four feet. That would be a reasonable case, I think, 596 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: based on what I've been reading here, Or are you 597 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: going to interpret that as oh, well that means it 598 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: has five hooves or five toes to a foot something 599 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: that is too extreme based on what I've been looking at. 600 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 3: I see what you mean. But like the statement about 601 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 3: having total across the animal could be interpreted as on 602 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 3: one one leg. 603 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's so that's anyway that's me thinking about it. 604 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: Marsh't didn't discuss that idea, but it just has me 605 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: wondering if that's the sort of thing that could be 606 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: going on here as well. Now, there are plenty of 607 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: recent accounts of polydactyl horse hoofs and photos. Of course, 608 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: you can do an image search and you can find 609 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 2: images of horses that have additional hooves or hooflits or 610 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: toes or whatever you want to call them. Most accounts 611 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 2: I came across of, in terms of like veterinary literature, 612 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: dealt with congenital abnormalities that were at least in some 613 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 2: cases surgically corrected. So yeah, this is I guess in 614 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: the horse world. These are rare enough to be notable, 615 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 2: but certainly not so rare that they are unknown, So 616 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 2: it's not beyond the realm of possibility. It seems that yes, 617 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: Caesar may have had a polydactyl horse, acquired a polydactyl horse, 618 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: or it's also equally likely that this is just all 619 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: you know, legend building in order to build up the 620 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 2: case that hey, Caesar is a lot like that guy 621 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 2: Alexander the Great. Both of them rode around undeformed horses, 622 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: both of them were destined for greatness. 623 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 3: Now, you mentioned a minute ago when you were citing 624 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 3: the paleontologist Othneil Charles Marsh that he had written that 625 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 3: horses have these little splint bones within the hoof, which 626 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 3: he attributed to being remnants of other toes that used 627 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 3: to belong to the ancestors of horses today. And it 628 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 3: turns out that's actually onto something. Because I was reading 629 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 3: some stuff about the evolution of the horse hoof. This 630 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 3: is an interesting and broad topic that's going to have 631 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 3: to span into the next part in the series, but 632 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 3: just to introduce a bit of it here, I was 633 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 3: looking at an article in The New York Times called 634 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 3: How Horses Got their hoofs by steph Ynn, published August 635 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 3: twenty eighth, twenty seventeen. Now, this article is mainly responding 636 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 3: to a journal article that was published in Proceedings of 637 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 3: the Royal Society b Biological Sciences in twenty seventeen by 638 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: authors Brionna K. Mccurse Good research focus there, Andrew A. 639 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 3: Bee Winner and Stephanie E. Pierce, And the paper is 640 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 3: called Mechanics of Evolutionary digit Reduction in Fossil Horses meaning 641 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 3: the biological family equity. Now, what this journal article did 642 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 3: is it added some evidence to comment on the long 643 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 3: held hypothetical story of horse hoof evolution, which is based 644 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 3: somewhat on fossil evidence and inferences from other sources. But basically, 645 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: the story that experts have long believed goes something like this, 646 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 3: that the earliest horses were small, much smaller than horses today. 647 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 3: They were sort of dog sized animals that lived in 648 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 3: forested areas, and they had multiple toes per foot, So 649 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 3: you have to imagine like small, little, you know, doggy 650 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 3: horses that had at least three toes per foot I 651 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 3: think maybe four toes on their front legs and three 652 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 3: toes on their back legs. And then came some climate 653 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 3: change about twenty million years ago. Some of these horses 654 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 3: were living in previously forested habitats that changed into grasslands 655 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 3: and plains. The disappearance of forests and the transition to 656 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 3: grassland environments put different adaptive pressures on these herbivorous, four 657 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 3: legged animals. And you might imagine there could be a 658 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 3: lot of different pressures there. But one example would be 659 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 3: if you're not in a forest, if you're in a 660 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 3: grassland instead, it is a lot easier for predators to 661 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 3: see you it's harder to hide, and so this could 662 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 3: drive the evolution of larger bodies as a defensive adaptation, 663 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 3: you need to make it easier to defend yourself. And 664 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 3: it could also lead to selection for speed in order 665 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 3: to be able to evade predators, and so the story goes. 666 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 3: For some reason, this shift to becoming an animal that 667 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,280 Speaker 3: needed to be both big and fast caused the selection 668 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 3: of the single toe for the contact point with the ground, 669 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 3: as opposed to the previous version of this animal, which 670 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 3: had had multiple toes per foot. Now, the authors of 671 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 3: the study investigated this hypothetical evolutionary trajectory by analyzing leg 672 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 3: fossils from twelve different types of horses over evolutionary time, 673 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 3: going back as far as fifty five million years ago, 674 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 3: all the way up to modern horses. And the researchers 675 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 3: had previously investigated the different types of physical stress put 676 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 3: on horse legs by various types of normal behaviors like 677 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 3: trotting around, jumping, or speeding up into a run, and 678 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 3: using this information about the physical stresses on horse legs, 679 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 3: they created a model of how these activities would put 680 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 3: stress on the legs of the horse and then tested 681 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,839 Speaker 3: that model against different forms of the horse's foot with 682 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 3: different numbers of toes, and what they found was that 683 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 3: when horses were smaller and also had multiple toes contacting 684 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 3: the ground, the extra digits were actually important for carrying 685 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 3: the weight of the body. Body weight was distributed across 686 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 3: multiple toes, but as horses got bigger, the toes on 687 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 3: the sides began to shrink and essentially disappeared as distinct digits, 688 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 3: leaving only the single middle toe and the middle finger 689 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 3: hit in the ground as the single mighty hoof. This 690 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 3: is the lone contact point with the earth now, so 691 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 3: it seems pretty clear that this is the trajectory that 692 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 3: happened over the evolutionary history of horses or horses, zebras, 693 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 3: and donkeys. But why did the side toes disappear? This 694 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: study in particular does not answer that definitively, but in 695 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 3: the New York Times article they interviewed the lead author 696 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 3: breonn and mccorse, and she suggested that maybe it's that 697 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 3: having just a single toe made it easier for the 698 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 3: horses to move their feet more quickly, using the comparison 699 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 3: of like trying to run with ankle weights on or 700 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 3: I think of the experience of trying to run in 701 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 3: heavy boots, which I've done. It's very difficult to do. 702 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 3: You know, running shoes tend to be very lightweight. 703 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: That's a good point. 704 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 3: And one thing this does highlight is the kind of 705 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 3: paradox of the behavior, the graceful behavior of the horse. 706 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 3: It is like strange to observe how graceful and quick 707 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 3: horses are given their size. Though I would like to 708 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 3: point out that while horses are sort of a peak 709 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 3: example of this, I'm often struck by the shocking speed 710 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 3: and grace of even much more modest displays by animals 711 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 3: like bovines. Like have you ever seen a cow just 712 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: suddenly jump over a fence and it didn't look at 713 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 3: all like that was something that could happen until you 714 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 3: saw it. Do you know what I'm talking about? 715 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 4: Oh? 716 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean especially with cattle, because a lot of 717 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 2: times they do appear to be not moving a lot, 718 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 2: but when they do move, it can be kind of shocking. 719 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, cows can look like four footed barges, like they 720 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 3: should not be able to move at anything other than 721 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 3: kind of a shuffle, But then suddenly you see them 722 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 3: leap over a fence or something like that. And now, 723 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 3: of course, cows, as a reminder, are not single toed 724 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 3: ungulates like horses. Cows have two toes per foot, and 725 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 3: they got the hoofs on the two toes. But yeah, 726 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 3: so you multiply that to an even greater extent with horses. 727 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 3: When you actually see them up close and see how 728 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 3: big the animal is and then how fast and gracefully 729 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 3: it moves, something seems like wrong. It's like how is 730 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 3: it doing this? And it's quite it seems quite likely 731 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 3: that the single toed point of contact with the ground 732 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 3: is part of that equation that is how the horses possible. 733 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 2: You know, I think this might touch on another reason 734 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: that in literature and like culture in general, there's less 735 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 2: focus on how weird the hoof is and more just 736 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 2: on like the majesty of the horse. Because yeah, watching 737 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 2: like the sum total of all of this, watching a 738 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 2: horse run, it's enthralling, Like it's it's hard to imagine, 739 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 2: like riding along in a car and someone like saying, hey, 740 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 2: look look over there, those horses in that field are 741 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 2: running and being like, ah, I'm good. I don't need 742 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: to see that. No, of course you want to see that. 743 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 2: There's just something about it. I don't know, you know, 744 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 2: how much of it is just the the majesty of 745 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 2: the creature itself, how much of it is like the 746 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 2: historical and cultural weight of horses. But you know, it's 747 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 2: like they fascinated us. They've always fascinated us, you know, 748 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,760 Speaker 2: since since time out of mind, since you know, before 749 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 2: our ability to even scrawl them roughly on a on 750 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 2: a cavern wall. 751 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 3: I'm not even one of those horse people, you know, 752 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 3: they're like horse people and the non horse I'm a 753 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 3: non horse person. But when I let myself be amazed, 754 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 3: they are amazing. I guess this is what it's like 755 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 3: twenty four to seven to be a horse person. 756 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, and again I'm not like if you 757 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 2: asked me, hey, do you want to ride a horse 758 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 2: this afternoon, I would probably say no, thank I'm good. 759 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 2: I did it once. I'm fine. It's not my thing. 760 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 2: But again, if you were to point out the window 761 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: and say, hey, there's some horses running, would you like 762 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 2: to slow the car down and take a look at this, 763 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 2: I would say yes, please, let's watch, because watching horses 764 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 2: that's more my speed. 765 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think we're going to have to cap 766 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 3: Part one of this series there, but we will be 767 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 3: back to talk about the hoofs some more. I know 768 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 3: we have plenty more questions and ideas to get into 769 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 3: about the evolution of horse hoofs. And also we want 770 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 3: to talk about the invention of the horseshoe. 771 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because that is a key invention in the 772 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 2: human relationship with the horse. And also I think understanding 773 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 2: the horseshoe helps us understand the hoof a little bit 774 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 2: more as well. In the meantime, if you have anything 775 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 2: you'd like to ride in and share with us about 776 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 2: a horses of their relatives, anything in general about hoofs 777 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 2: or horse like steeds in fantasy and science fiction, everything's 778 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 2: fair game. We'll share that email address in just a minute. 779 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 2: But in the meantime, you can also check out other 780 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 2: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind and the Stuff to 781 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,879 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind podcast feed wherever you get your podcasts. 782 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 2: Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, Listener Mail on Mondays. 783 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 2: On Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster 784 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,760 Speaker 2: fact episode, and on Fridays we set aside most serious 785 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 2: concerns to just talk about a weird movie. 786 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 3: On Weird House Cinema huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, 787 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 3: JJ Posway. If you would like to get in touch 788 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,839 Speaker 3: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 789 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 790 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact Stuff to 791 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 3: Blow Your Mind dot com. 792 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 793 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 794 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.