1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Uh So, Tracy, yes, 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: you probably know. I mean we all know about Lady 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: Chatterly's Lover. Today, we kind of think of it as 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: like sort of a steamy classic book. Uh sure, that 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: was not the case when it came out then it 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: was just considered obscene. Uh and it stayed uh categorized 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: as obscene for a long time. We just passed the 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: anniversary of a trial in Great Britain in which it 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: was debated whether the book was obscenity or whether it 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: had literary merit. And that trial story is a story 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: I really love. H It didn't actually happen until thirty 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: years after D. H. Lawrence, the author, had died, and 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: it really marks a moment in history where there was 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about the legalities of determining the 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: value of a work of art or literature. That's something 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: that people still grapple with today as humans with different 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,639 Speaker 1: values and ideologies. And we're all trying to survive together 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: on this rock hurdling through space, not everybody agrees on 21 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: what is art and what has merit versus what might 22 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: be considered inappropriate or obscene. So today we're going to 23 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: first talk about author D. H. Lawrence, whose life was 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: in many ways as dramatic as any book he wrote. 25 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: He also borrowed a lot from his life for his writing. 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: And then we're going to talk about obscenity laws in 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: Great Britain. Specifically, this book has a whole life in 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: terms of it being considered obscene and litigated in many countries, 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: but we're primarily focusing on Great Britain, and we will 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about things going on in the 31 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: US because they dove tail on one another. And then 32 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the trial that made Lady 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: Chatterley really world famous in the mid twentieth century. Heads up, 34 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: As you may have guessed from this introduction, Uh, we're 35 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: talking about a book it involves a lot of sex. However, 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: I will say we're being pretty careful about that, Like 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: we're not really going into detail about any of the 38 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: descriptions in the book. We're not reading any of the 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: passages in the book that you would consider selecious if 40 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: that's your thing. Um, But just know that, like, we 41 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: are going to mention some of it and how it 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: was perceived both legally and by readers, as well as 43 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: some of Lawrence's other work. So. David Herbert Lawrence was 44 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: born on September in the coal mining town of Eastwood, Nottinghamshire, England. 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: His early life was really not easy at all. His father, 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: Arthur John Lawrence, worked in the minds and his mother, Lydia, 47 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: was a lacemaker. It's believed that Arthur wasn't able to read, 48 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: but Lydia was actually well educated. She had grown up 49 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: in a middle class family before that family lost everything 50 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: they had, and she had educational opportunities that her husban 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: been did not. Lydia's love of literature is usually cited 52 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: as having a strong influence on David, who was the 53 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: couple's fourth child. Yeah. I read varying accounts about whether 54 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: he went by David or Burt more around the house. 55 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: We know his mother called him Burt, but just af 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: hy I you'll hear him called sometimes David, sometimes dh 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: sometimes Bert in this podcast. Uh. Lawrence was not a 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: child of robust health, and his frailty was only accentuated 59 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: by being in a coal town where the air was 60 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: not exactly ideal to be breathing. That also meant that 61 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: he was often kind of left behind socially, as he 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: often convalesced at home. He did excel academically, and at 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: the age of twelve, he received a scholarship to Nottingham 64 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: High School. That was something that no child from Eastwood 65 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: had ever received before. His time at Nottingham was not 66 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: as impressive in terms of academic achievement as his earlier 67 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: schooling had been, and he still struggled to make friends, 68 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: and he was often sick. At the age of sixteen, 69 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: Lawrence started a job as a clerk in a factory 70 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: that made surgical supplies, but he was only there a 71 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: few months before he got sick. He got pneumonia and 72 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: had to leave his job to recover. This was after 73 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: the death of his brother William, and it's possible that 74 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: the stress of grief contributed to his health issues during 75 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: this time. After he more or less got better, he 76 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: started teaching school that was back in Eastwood, and he 77 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: also met a longtime friend, Jesse Chambers. Jesse seems to 78 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: have sort of picked up the same flag that Lawrence's 79 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: mother had carried in terms of encouraging David to look 80 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: for a better life than Eastwood could offer. Jesse. Like 81 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: Lydia urged Lawrence to write, which he did, and at 82 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: this point Lawrence was simultaneously pursuing a writing career and 83 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: a teaching career, and this was in the early nineteen hundreds. 84 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: In nineteen o six, he published his first short story 85 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: that was called an Enjoyable cre Smith's a Prelude. He 86 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: was also at this point studying to get his teaching 87 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: certificate in Nottingham. He was also working on his novel 88 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: The White Peacock, which was published in nineteen eleven. That 89 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: novel was followed in nineteen twelve by The Trespasser. These 90 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: successes were almost undoubtedly shadowed by the fact that Lydia 91 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: Lawrence his mother had died in nineteen ten, and her son, 92 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: who she called Bert, grieved the loss very deeply, writing 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: at one point that he and his mother had an 94 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: almost marriage like love. In nineteen twelve, while visiting a 95 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: former professor named Ernest Weekly, Lawrence fell really deeply in love, 96 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,239 Speaker 1: but that was with Ernest Weekly's wife. She was German 97 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: novelist Frida von rick to Offen. Lawrence was engaged at 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: the time, but he broke off this engagement immediately and 99 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: persuaded Frieda to leave earnest. He also quit his job 100 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: to become a full time novelist. Lawrence and Frieda traveled 101 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: to Germany and then to Italy. David wrote at a 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: rapid pace throughout all of these travels. Yeah, this was 103 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: a very dramatic time. There is a story that he 104 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: actually was suspected of being a spy when they were 105 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: in Germany, and that was why they had to leave 106 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: pretty quickly and go to Italy. And of course all 107 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: of this may have been catalyzed by just him having 108 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: been in an emotionally fraught state, still dealing with the 109 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: loss of his mother. In the first year of his 110 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: relationship with Frieda, Lawrence published his first play titled The 111 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Daughter in Law, his first book of poetry titled Love 112 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: Poems and Others, and his third novel, the acclaimed Sons 113 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: and Lovers. Sons and Lovers is generally considered D. H. 114 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: Lawrence's first truly great work, and it draws a lot 115 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: from Lawrence's own life. It tells the story of a boy, 116 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: Paul Moral, from a mining town who yearns for more 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: and tries to make a better life for himself as 118 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: he navigates his relationship with his mother and two women 119 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: with whom he has romantic relation and ships. Doesn't sound 120 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: familiar at all. After this whirlwind that he went through 121 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: of travel and writing and putting out sons and lovers, 122 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 1: David and Frieda returned to England and they got married 123 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: on July thirteenth, nineteen fourteen. That was basically right after 124 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: her divorce was legally finalized. His first short story collection, 125 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: The Prussian Officer, was published soon after the wedding. Lawrence's 126 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: next published work marked the start of his problems with 127 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: being accused of obscenity. The Rainbow was released in nineteen fifteen, 128 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: and it follows three generations of one family in a 129 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: world that's rapidly changing from an agricultural society to an 130 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: industrialized one. The reason critics called this obscene was that 131 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: it had a number of instances where passion and sexual 132 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: desire were discussed really plainly and very frank and open terms. 133 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: In one instance, a couple of sex life is reinvigorated 134 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: after the husband has a brief sexual encounter with another 135 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: woman while traveling. The couple's relationship becomes focused almost entirely 136 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: on their sexual connection to the exclusion of everything else, 137 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: even their family. This was, of course, not just a 138 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: scenario where readers of nineteen fifteen would find the sexual 139 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: writing shocking, although they did, the characters were also very 140 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: clearly breaking social morains. In addition to that shift in 141 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: that couple's relationship, there is later on in the book 142 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: a sexual encounter between two women. This entire book ended 143 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: up being banned on the grounds that it was obscene. 144 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: Half of the print run was destroyed, and when Lawrence's 145 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: publishers at Mathulan appeared before a magistrate, they really threw d. H. 146 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: Lawrence under the bus, saying that they kept telling him 147 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: to change things, but that he stopped making edits for 148 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: them and then they just had to go to print. 149 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: This was all happening too at a time when d. H. 150 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: Lawrence and his wife Frieda would have loved to have 151 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: left England, but they could not because of World War One. 152 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: They were living in a small cottage in Cornwall, and 153 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: because of the controversy surrounding Lawrence's writing, as well as 154 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: the fact that his wife was German. They were having 155 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: just a really isolated life. They had nobody from the 156 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: community who wanted to befriend them. Yeah, they definitely had 157 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: friends in like intellectual circles, but in terms of their 158 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: day to day lives, they were sort of community. Pariah's 159 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: Lawrence was working on his sequel to The Rainbow, which 160 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: was Women in Love. Those two books had initially been 161 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: planned as one larger book, but then his publisher had 162 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: asked him to split it into two, and while he 163 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: was writing Women in Love, he and Frieda were in 164 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: a state of constant conflict as they worked through some 165 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: issues that had come up in their rather hasty marriage. 166 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: For one thing, DH was grappling with his own sexual identity, 167 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: as he recognized that he had been attracted to other men, 168 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: and while his own writings suggests that he came to 169 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: terms with an identity of bisexuality, this subject has continued 170 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: to be discussed and debated by literary critics and biographers 171 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: for decades. Additionally, Frieda had entered the marriage believing that 172 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: this was going to be an open one and that 173 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: she would be free to have lovers other than her husband. 174 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: That was something that d. H. Lawrence was not comfortable with, 175 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: although eventually they worked this out and she did have 176 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: some freedom in that regard. So not only were the 177 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: newlyweds alone and under constant suspicion from their neighbors, they 178 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: were also in a constant state of stress between the 179 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: two of them. Women in Love reflects this conflict. The 180 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: story picks up with Ursula, who was the character in 181 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: focus at the end of The Rainbow, as well as 182 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: her sister and the two marriages that each of them 183 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: enter into. These two marriages are deeply intertwined, and the 184 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: story is very much about people trying to find relationships 185 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: in which they feel fulfilled as individuals and as sexual beings. 186 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: Because of the issues and controversy surrounding The Rainbow, public 187 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: location of Women in Love took a while. Publisher Thomas 188 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: Seltzer to get through three years of revisions before it 189 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: went to print in New York in nineteen twenty, and 190 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: even then the first edition was only released two subscribers. 191 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: It was published in London the following year, where it 192 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: was not banned, although it was still considered controversial. When 193 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: World War One ended, d h and freed to Lawrence 194 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: left England and moved to Italy. It was there that 195 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: he finished his editing on Women in Love and he 196 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: also completed a set of short stories titled My England 197 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: and Other Stories, which came out in ninety two. He 198 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: also worked on several other novels, including The Lost Girl 199 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: and Aaron's Rod. After two years in Italy, the Lawrences 200 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: headed to the US. They opted not to go across 201 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: the Atlantic to make this journey, but instead they went 202 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: to Seulon now Sri Lanka, and then Australia and then 203 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: across the Pacific to reach the US. While he is 204 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: in Australia, he wrote the book Kangaroo over the course 205 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: of about a month and a half. This novel, even 206 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: more than most of his other work, is pretty obviously autobiographical. 207 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: The main character, Richard Lovett, is an English writer married 208 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: to a German woman, and after living in England through 209 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: the World War, they moved to Australia. Once there, this 210 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: character love It finds himself in the push and pull 211 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: of conflicting political movements in the country. The ultimately finds 212 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: that he does not feel a connection to the parties 213 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: who were vying for his alliance. There continues to be 214 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: debate over whether D. H. Lawrence was drawing from real 215 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: events and people in his descriptions of the political leaders 216 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: and parties of Australia at the time. Yeah, they're definitely 217 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: people who are like he's describing people that were real 218 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: and obviously that's what this is, and other people are 219 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: like Yeah, But in his time in Australia, he wasn't 220 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: there long enough to have met all of these people 221 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: in these very high profile and controversial positions. Uh, and 222 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: it for it to not have been particularly well documented 223 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: if that had been the case. But after leaving Australia, 224 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: the Lawrence has made their way to North America and 225 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: they headed to Taos, New Mexico, where they lived for 226 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: a little while. Lawrence had been working for several years 227 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: before this on a non fiction project titled Studies in 228 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: Classic American Literature, and he finished that while living in Taos. 229 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: This book includes literary criticism of writers like Nathaniel Hawthorne 230 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: and Herman Melville, among others. And he also wrote three 231 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: other nonfiction works in the early nineteen twenties before they 232 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: even reached the us SO Movements of European History and 233 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: Psychoanalysis and The Unconscious We're both published in nineteen twenty one, 234 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 1: and then Fantasia of the Unconscious was published in nineteen two. 235 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: His American literature criticism work was the last of his 236 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: nonfiction books to be published, and that came out in 237 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: ninety three. He continued to write fiction as well, and 238 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: his next book was Boy in the Bush, which came 239 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: out in nineteen four. The Plumed Serpent, which was released 240 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: in ninety six, is an interesting approach to the function 241 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: of religion in a post war world and the end 242 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: of Christianity and a return to indigenous religious traditions. This book, 243 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: which featured a revival of Aztec religious rights, was no 244 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: doubt informed by the trips the writer made some Mexico 245 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: while living in the American Southwest. Yeah, definitely a tourist's 246 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: version of such things. UM. Not not something you would 247 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: go to for any kind of accurate representation of such things. 248 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: In n. D. H. Lawrence was diagnosed with tuberculosis after 249 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: he had had a bronchial hemorrhage and seen a doctor. 250 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: He left New Mexico and returned to Italy after his diagnosis, 251 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: and there he started working on Lady Chatterley's Lover, but 252 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: it was not his only project. He also penned a 253 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: travel fiction called Sketches of Etruscan Places UM. I saw 254 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: that described once as like kind of his his dream 255 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: version of his life of travel, where it like there's 256 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: a self insert character in every situation of like it 257 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: sounds like this would be my cool life if I 258 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: lived abroad. Um, he did live a cool life abroad, 259 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: so it's kind of interesting. Sketches was published in ninety six, 260 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: and then he went back to work on Lady Chatterly, 261 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: or Lady C, as he called it in correspondence with friends. 262 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: When that book was published in it was published privately, 263 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: once again to subscribers, and not available to the general public. 264 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: We will talk a lot more about this than just 265 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: a moment. But though he believed in his book, D. H. 266 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: Lawrence also knew that it had its detractors even before 267 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: it had left the printer. He wrote of the book 268 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: to his agent, quote, I am determined to stand by 269 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: Lady C and to send her out into the world 270 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: as far as possible. I perfectly understand that C. B 271 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: and Rich are against her, thinking she will do me harm, 272 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: and probably disliking her anyhow. But I stand by her 273 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: and am perfectly content she should do me harm. With 274 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: such people as take offense at her, I am out 275 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: against such people fly a little boat. I sort of 276 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: love that the writing. It's just got like a great 277 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: attitude to it, in my opinion. As his health declined, 278 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: d H. Lawrence moved once more, this time to the 279 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: south of France, and there he worked on a number 280 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: of poems and a critique of religion, and specifically the 281 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: book of revelations titled Apocalypse that was published posthumously. D H. 282 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: Lawrence died in Vals, France, on March seco n thirty. 283 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: He was only forty four at the time. Lawrence was 284 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: buried initially in Vaunts. According to Frieda, this was such 285 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: a small, simple ceremony. She wrote of it, quote, we 286 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: buried him very simply, like a bird. We put him 287 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: away a few of us who loved him. Frieda moved 288 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: back to Taos to live with Angelo Vaguely, who had 289 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: been Lawrence's friend and Frieda's lover for several years before 290 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: d H. Died. She eventually married him quite late in 291 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: her life. Five years after d H. Lawrence died, Revigedly 292 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: returned to France to have the author's body exhumed and 293 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: cremated so that he could be brought back to Taos. 294 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: That's something that Frieda had requested. There's a whole other 295 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: story here. We'll talk about it a little more on Friday. 296 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: In a moment, we're going to dig a little deeper 297 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: into the story of Lady Chatterly and the laws that 298 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: governed this book's availability for a long time. But first 299 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: we will hear from the sponsors that keep the show going. 300 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: The controversy of D. H. Lawrence's work outlived him by 301 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: quite a stretch. When his book came out in British 302 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: authorities declared that it was permanently banned in Great Britain, 303 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: not published a version in the US that same year, 304 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: but that was a very heavily edited edition. The plot 305 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: of the book is about the marriage and affairs of 306 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: the titular character, Constance Chatterly. Her husband, Sir Clifford Chatterly, 307 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: is paralyzed from the waist down, and their life is 308 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: both physically and emotionally void. They really do not connect 309 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: on any level. Connie has a brief affair with the 310 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: playwright that also leaves her unfulfilled, but then she starts 311 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: a relationship with the estate gamekeeper, Oliver Milords, who is 312 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: also married. Their affair is really intense and sensual, in 313 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: a way that Connie has never experienced before, and ultimately 314 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: it unravels their lives as both Malords and Connie try 315 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: to escape their marriages. The book doesn't end with them together, 316 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: but there's a sense of hope that they might eventually 317 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: be together. And while the book has in more recent 318 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: decades come under criticism for or featuring a woman in 319 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: a role of socio economic power becoming obsessed with a 320 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: man who is not exactly kind to her, Malour's is 321 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: pretty distant and even derisive. Lady Chatterley's Lover was for 322 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: its time, incredibly progressive for continuing to put forth the 323 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: idea of a woman even having sexual appetites. It's also 324 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: pretty straightforward about the many sex acts it describes. It's 325 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: not demeaning for either partner, and it offers up the 326 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: idea that real love and passion and sexuality are things 327 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: that people have lost touch with as society has become 328 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: more industrialized. I have not read this book. Um does 329 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: it fall into the trope of disabled people as like sexless? 330 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: Not really? Okay? Um? So her husband comes back from 331 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: the war with with that paralysis, and he seems to 332 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: over the course of the book become possibly there's like 333 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: hints that he's he's having some sort of relationship with 334 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: his nurse. It doesn't really go into much sexuality there, um, 335 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: But I was just curious because that is a very 336 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: common trip. It is, for sure. Um. I think you 337 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: could argue either side of it. Honestly, because he's very 338 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: he seems very permissive and even suggestive that she should 339 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: go elsewhere to have her sexual needs. Meant, but because 340 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: they're which could fall into that trope, but because their 341 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: relationship is just off anyway, you could argue the opposite 342 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: that he just doesn't want anything to do with her. Um. 343 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: It has also been a long time since I've done 344 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: a thorough read of it, so don't take any of 345 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: that as any kind of expertise or thorough gospel on 346 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: the matter. To get to the legal part of all 347 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: of this, Lord Campbell's Act, also known as the Obscene 348 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: Publications Act of eighteen fifty seven, established laws against obscene 349 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: literature written, and it was problematic in a lot of 350 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: the same ways of other obscenity laws we've talked about 351 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: on the show recently. It did not define what qualified 352 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: as obscene literature. That was questioned as possibly being obscene 353 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: was determined on a case by case basis in court, So, 354 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: of course, that led to some situations where the application 355 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: of the law was inconsistent, or even where literature that 356 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: described fairly commonplace happenings that people might see every day 357 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: was determined to be obscene just because the judge involved 358 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: applied his own sense of morality to the line of 359 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: the law. Additionally, that act provided a great deal of 360 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: power to authorities. Under the Act, police were empowered to 361 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: search any establishment they believed might have obscene literature for 362 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: sale or distribution. It also enabled postal workers to confiscate 363 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: any parcels that were suspected of containing obscene materials, and 364 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: for the destruction and of any such materials. Section three 365 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: of the eighteen fifty seven Act also stated that quote 366 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: no action, suit, or information, or any proceeding of what 367 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: nature soever shall be brought against any person for anything 368 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: done or omitted to be done in pursuance of this 369 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: Act or in the execution of authorities under this Act. 370 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: There was a provision here that a person could take 371 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: legal action against someone if certain requirements related to a 372 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,719 Speaker 1: fairly narrow window. There's like there's a three month window, 373 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: but there's also a one month window. It's worded very 374 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: very um specifically, but also in the way it is 375 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: quite confusing. Uh. And it also stated that the party 376 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: intending to prosecute had to notify the defendant in writing 377 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: about it first. So basically, if someone took your things 378 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: and destroyed them and they weren't in any way obscene 379 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: at all, even though even though they could say I 380 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: thought it was obscene, you had no recourse to like, 381 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: get any kind of recompense from it. And because of 382 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: the rather nebulous nature of this law and all of 383 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: these problems with it, as well as some others, it 384 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: was criticized literally from the beginning. Even so, it took 385 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: more than a hundred years for the Act to be updated. 386 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: The big changes that took place in the Obscene Publications 387 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: Act of ninety nine were first a provision for a 388 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 1: defense of innocent dissemination, meaning the person who distributed the 389 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: obscene item didn't mean to do so, and second for 390 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: a defense based on the social or artistic value of 391 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: the item being distributed. This is outlined in section four 392 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: of the law, titled Defense of Public Good, and it 393 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: reads quote one, A person shall not be convicted of 394 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: an offense against Section two of this Act, and an 395 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: order for forfeiture shall not be made under the foregoing 396 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: section if it is proved that publication of the article 397 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: in question is justified as being for the public good 398 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: on the ground that it is in the interests of science, literature, art, 399 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: or learning, or of other objects of general concern. Two. 400 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: It is hereby declared that the opinion of experts as 401 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: to the literary, artistic, scientific, or other merits of an 402 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: article may be admitted in any proceedings under this Act, 403 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: either to establish or too negative the said ground. That 404 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: defense of public good phrase made a lot of publishers 405 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: start to reevaluate literature that they had not been able 406 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: to bring to press before the law was updated, and 407 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: one of those titles was, of course, Lady Chatterly's Lover. 408 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: There was a similar trajectory for the book's status in 409 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: the United States. In Utah, Senator Reid Smoot seemed kind 410 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: of obsessed with Lawrence's last novel and led a charge 411 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: to have it banned as a small section of a 412 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: larger tariff act that he was coast sponsoring. Smoot stated 413 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: in a debate on the Senate floor quote. I could 414 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: tell from the very beginning that it is written by 415 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: a man with a diseased mind and a soul so 416 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: black that he would obscure the darkness of hell. Nobody 417 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: would write a book like that unless his heart was 418 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: as rotten and as black as it could possibly be. 419 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: Although it seemed that most of his colleagues thought this 420 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: fixation on Lawrence's book was a little over zealous, his 421 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: Tariff Act passed and Lady Chatterley could only be published 422 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: in the United States in a heavily abridged form that 423 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: removed all of the explicit sex scenes. Yeah, there's a 424 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: if you ever just want to have a fun time 425 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: look at old newspapers with read Smoot and some of 426 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: his colleagues arguing about this because they really kind of 427 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: get his goat a lot of the time, where they're like, really, 428 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: you think it's gross, but you seem to have read 429 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: it completely, and he's very adamant that he only spent 430 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: ten minutes looking at it like it's all weird thing um. 431 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: In the cases of both the US and Great Britain 432 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: obscenity laws, because Lawrence's book had been published initially in 433 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: Italy and had to be shipped to people in those 434 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: countries who wanted it. That meant that customs offices and 435 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: post offices were supposed to be the mainline of defense 436 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: against this questionable material getting into those countries. But after 437 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: the initial release official statements about it from government officials, 438 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: in this kind of furor that people like Smoot had 439 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,239 Speaker 1: experienced kind of died down. Interest in the band in 440 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: the US was reignited when a French adaptation of the 441 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: novel for film challenged its censorship in the US. Kingsley Pictures, 442 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: the film's distributor, went all the way to the U. S. 443 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: Supreme Court after the State of New York denied a 444 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: distribution license because quote it's object matter is adultery presented 445 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: as being right and desirable for certain people under certain circumstances, 446 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: and it said that it quote alluringly portrays adultery as 447 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: proper behavior. When Kingsley Pictures Court Versus Regents went before 448 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: the U. S. Supreme Court, though the court's judgment read 449 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: in part quote what New York has done therefore is 450 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: to prevent the exhibition of a motion picture because that 451 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: picture advocates an idea that adultery under certain circumstances, maybe 452 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,719 Speaker 1: proper behavior, Yet the First Amendment's basic guarantee is of 453 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: freedom to advocate ideas. The state quite simply has thus 454 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: struck at the very heart of constitutionally protected liberty. Yeah, 455 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: that film was made in ninety five, but it was 456 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: a couple of years later that they tried to distribute 457 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: it in the US. Uh, And all of this started 458 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: to bubble over. On May eleven, ninety nine, the Johnson 459 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 1: City Press of Tennessee reported quote, last week, the Grove 460 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: City Press released an addition of Lady Chatterley's Lover exactly 461 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: as D. H. Lawrence wrote it, not omitting one four 462 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: letter word or tender descriptive passage. This article then mentions 463 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 1: that while thirty thousand copies of the book had made 464 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: their way out into the world, I question that number. Uh. 465 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: The New York Post Office had seized a hundred and 466 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: sixty four copies of it. Publisher Barney Rossett, who founded 467 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: Grove Press, fought to have bands on a number of books. 468 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: I returned that among those titles was Lady Chatterley's Lover, 469 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: and he filed suit against Robert K. Kristen Mary individually 470 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: and as postmaster of the City of New York that 471 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: was a United States District Court SD New York. In 472 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: a filing which read quote, plaintiffs seek to restrain the 473 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: Postmaster from enforcing a decision of the Post Office Department 474 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: that the unexpurgated Lady Chatterley's Lover and circulars announcing its 475 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: availability are nonmail herble under the Statute barring obscene Matter 476 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: from the Males. Ross It won the case, and this 477 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: established the idea of redeeming value for controversial works that 478 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: excluded them from obscenity laws. So, after the update to 479 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: the British Obscenity Act and the success of US publishers 480 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: in court, Penguin Books took a bold step and published 481 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: an unexplagated edition of Lady c in London nine days 482 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: after its publication. Legal proceedings were initiated. In the case 483 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: of r v. Penguin Books Limited was filed that our 484 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: stands for Regina, which means Queen. It's like saying the 485 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: Crown is filing this suit against you. Okay, we're going 486 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: up for the trial, but first we will take a 487 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break. During the time before Great Britain's Obscenity 488 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: Act had its ninette update, Lady Chatterly's Lover had circulated 489 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: for decades. There were versions of the book printed in 490 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: various countries almost from the moment the book was first released, 491 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: and we used the word printed there rather than published, 492 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: pretty deliberately because a lot of them were basically black 493 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: market reproductions made by copying that initial run. I read 494 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: one cute account. It read cutely to me about like, 495 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: what will high school teenagers do now to be rebellious 496 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: if this book is very illegal? And as it once 497 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: again became a hot topic, the revisit to Lawrence's tail 498 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: and to a new generation considering its value and whether 499 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: it was worth getting spun up over. In nineteen fifty nine, 500 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: Time magazine ran a fresh review of the book, which stated, quote, 501 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: but is it pornography? The answer of literary people is no. Lawrence, 502 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: a fretful neurotic, always at war with himself, was a 503 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: serious writer. But there is another question. Is Lady Chatterley 504 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: dull and tiresome? This time? The answer must be yes. 505 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: People were starting to see this book's banning is kind 506 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: of pointless. By this time, The lines regarding what people 507 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: thought of as obscene and what was merely provocative. Those 508 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: lines had shifted a lot since the late nineteen twenties. 509 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: The Asheville Citizen Times of Asheville, North Carolina ran an 510 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: article about the Grove Press edition which included the comment quote. 511 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: It may seem ungallant to point this out, but after 512 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: thirty years Lady Chatterley that much talked about English gentlewoman 513 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: who had an affair with her husband's gamekeeper may strike 514 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: the present day observer is rather tame. Penguin's publication of 515 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: the book was not an attempt to just slide it 516 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: through print and hope nobody noticed. The book had been 517 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: a subject of renewed debate in both countries for several years, 518 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: and Penguin made an announcement that they would be publishing 519 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: it months before they did so. They even livered fifteen 520 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: copies directly to police officials. They knew that this inexpensive 521 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: paperback edition it costs just three shillings and sixpence. I 522 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: thought that would likely become a test case for these 523 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: updated nineteen fifty nine obscenity laws, and they were right. 524 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: In August nineteen sixty, Penguin was called to the bench, 525 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: and on October twentie of that year, the trial of 526 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: Lady Chatterly was underway at the Old Bailey, known more 527 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: formally as the Central Criminal Court of London. All of 528 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: the jurors had been given copies of the new Penguin 529 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: edition of the book and had been instructed by the 530 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: judge to read them. They had like a weekend and 531 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: a couple of days to get it read. During the 532 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: London trial, Prosecutor Mervin Griffith Jones addressed the jury opening 533 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: with quote, let me emphasize it on behalf of the prosecution, 534 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: do not approach this manner in any priggish, high minded, 535 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: super correct mid Victorian manner. Look at it as we 536 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: all of us, I hope look at thes today. And then, 537 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: to go back and re quote the words of Mr 538 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: Justice Devlin, you will have to say, is this book 539 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: to be tolerated or not? Would you approve of your 540 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: young son's young daughters, because girls can read as well 541 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: as boys reading this book. Is it a book that 542 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: you would have lying around your in your own house? 543 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: Is it a book that you would even wish your 544 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: wife or your servants to read. That's sort of sexist 545 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: and classist series of questions there at the end of 546 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: the quote really ended up hurting the prosecution because to 547 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: the jury it made it seem very out of touch 548 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: with modern sensibilities. Griffith Jones had also counted all of 549 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: the obscene acts and words in the book, and he 550 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: gave the assembled jurors those statistics. The F word was 551 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: in the book more than thirty times, the C word 552 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: fourteen times. There were thirteen quote episodes of sexual intercourse, 553 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: and twelve of them were very detailed. But here's the thing. 554 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: He even like offered up the word womb as something 555 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: offensive in his argument, and again that probably didn't help 556 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: his case. The defense was led by Gerald Gardner, and 557 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: opening remarks reminded the jury of the reputation of Penguin 558 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: Books and it's well established mission too put great works 559 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: of literature in the hands of working people. Gardner asked 560 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: the jury to consider whether such a reputable publisher would 561 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: want something as reprehensible as what Mr Griffith Jones had 562 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: described in the hands of so many. He also made 563 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: the case that even though he had been controversial in 564 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: his lifetime, since his death, D. H. Lawrence had come 565 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: to be recognized as one of the great English writers 566 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: and among the five or six greatest yes. The defense 567 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: conceded there were things in the book that we're shocking, 568 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: but the jury had to decide whether it was like 569 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: to corrupt people or lead to depravity. The defense called 570 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: thirty five witnesses, among them people like Rebecca West and 571 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: I M. Forster. There were journalists, There were editors and 572 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: literature professors. There were critics. There were even ministers and 573 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: experts in child development and education, and they all testified 574 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: that Lawrence was actually making a fairly moral case with 575 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: Lady Chatterly. When one witness stated that Lawrence used sex 576 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: as a quote holy basis for a good life, the 577 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: prosecution started reading the most salacious passages he could find 578 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: in the book to show just how unholy they were. 579 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: According to Molly Panter Downs, who was a journalist who 580 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: attended the trial and wrote about it for The New Yorker, quote, 581 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: practically every description of love making in the book must 582 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: have been read out by Mr Griffith Jones with awful 583 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: emphasis and the air of imparting some reprehensible right that 584 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: would be news to all his listeners. And it was 585 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: interesting how well the writing stood up to that treatment. 586 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: Defense witness Helen Gardner, who was a reader of Renaissance 587 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: English literature at the University of Oxford, stated that Lawrence's 588 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: use of four letter words was not shameful, as they 589 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: were describing an act that itself was not shameful. When 590 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: Griffin Jones asked her if she would object to teaching 591 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: the book to a mixed class, she replied, oh, no, 592 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: seeming perplexed that he would even ask such a question. 593 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: Was days and days of literary discussion in court, and 594 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: though the defense had they claimed another thirty six witnesses 595 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: in reserve, when they stopped at the thirty five initially listed, 596 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: the entire courtroom seemed relieved. Panther Downs wrote a lengthy 597 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: stream of defense witnesses quote. By the end of the case, 598 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,240 Speaker 1: every juror should have been qualified to write an honors 599 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: thesis on it. Finally, Justice Byrne, who presided over the case, 600 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: reminded the jurors that they really had two things to deliberate, 601 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: first whether the book was obscene, and second, whether it's 602 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: literary merit outweighed any obscenity that they had determined it 603 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: to possess. The defense seemed pretty worried despite all of 604 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: their witnesses testifying to the book's value. The liberation took 605 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: three hours. When the jury returned, they announced the verdict 606 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: of not guilty. Penguin Books had not run a foul 607 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: of the obscenity law and publishing Lady Chatterley's Lover. Just 608 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: days later, the publisher released all the copies that had 609 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: and the two hundred thousand copy print runs sold out. 610 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: Bookshops all over Britain reported that they had run out 611 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: of stock and had started taking back orders. Penguin added 612 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: a publisher's dedication to their next edition that read quote 613 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 1: for having published this book. Penguin Books was prosecuted under 614 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: the Obscene Publications Act nineteen fifty nine at the Old 615 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: Bailey in London from twenty October to two November nineteen sixty. 616 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: This edition is therefore dedicated into the twelve jurors, three 617 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: women and nine men, who returned a verdict of not 618 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: guilty and thus made D. H. Lawrence's last novel available 619 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: for the first time to the public in the United Kingdom. 620 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: Two million copies of the thirty two year old book 621 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 1: were sold in less than a year. Today, the Chatterly 622 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: obscenity case is considered a landmark when it comes to 623 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: obscenity law in Britain, so much so that the copy 624 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: that was used by Judge Sir Lawrence Burn was sold 625 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: at auction by Sotheby's in for fifty six thousand, two 626 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 1: hundred fifty pounds, but British Arts Minister Michael Ellis issued 627 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: a ban on its export to the anonymous buyer because 628 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: there was concern about letting an important artifact of British 629 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: legal and literary history leave the country. So a funding 630 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: effort was launched to match the auction price and keep 631 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 1: that annotated copy in Britain. Penguin Books donated ten thousand 632 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: pounds to this effort, but Alto at Lee, the University 633 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: of Bristol purchased the book to keep in the Penguin archive, 634 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: ensuring that it would indeed stay in Britain. And that 635 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: is the Lady Chatterley's Lover Trial, which I sort of love. 636 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: As I said, it's just such an interesting thing. I 637 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: remember having discussions about books that were considered obscene um 638 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: in high school. This is when I realized I couldn't 639 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: debate because I got I completely lost my cool during 640 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: a debate where someone was being very prudish by my estimation, 641 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't think you've read the material, 642 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: and I really it's not on the debate team didn't 643 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: make it. Um. What I do have is a listener 644 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: mail though, and we'll talk more about Lady Cee on Friday. 645 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: But I have a listener mail which is a correction, um, 646 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: because I left a single word out and ruined the 647 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: meaning of a thing out. This is from our listener, Barbara. 648 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: Barbara writes, I am binge listening to the two season 649 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: and just finished the Mabel Pengually episode from two. I 650 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: noticed in the story it was stated that in nineteen seventeen, 651 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: New York was the first state to give women the vote. 652 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,479 Speaker 1: That is not correct. It was Wyoming. Wyoming gave women 653 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: the right to vote when it was a territory in 654 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty nine. In eighteen eighty nine, it was made 655 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: part of the original constitution while they were becoming a state, 656 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: which occurred in eighteen nineties. So it was Wyoming in 657 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety is the first state to have in their 658 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: constitution women's suffrage. Maybe there was some way that that 659 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: sentence was worded in the podcast, like first state that 660 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: had denied women the vote to give women the vote 661 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: as Wyoming had it from the very beginning of the state. Barbara, 662 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: of course, you're right. Um, I actually looked at one 663 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: of my earlier notes and Tracy knows. I mean, I 664 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: think we've both done this, but I'm probably the worst 665 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,319 Speaker 1: of the worst of us. Um. You'll make a note 666 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: and then you'll copy a thing, you'll copy pasted into 667 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: a document and words will vanish and it will Yeah. 668 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: I had literally written it as in my side notes, 669 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: because I keep a second document that's like me writing 670 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 1: key points to hit and it was like first Eastern 671 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: state and Eastern So somehow, I I thought we had 672 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: already uh like done a correction about this shortly after 673 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,319 Speaker 1: the episode came out. But it may just be that 674 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: somebody mentioned it and I looked it up. I think so, 675 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: because I don't remember talking about it. But I could 676 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: be wrong, because I also forget things. Yeah, I also 677 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: also forget things. But the New York law did become 678 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: like a big rallying cry for women's voting rights in 679 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: the East, and so I think that like that's why 680 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: it gets noted in that context of like the first 681 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: state in the Eastern us, although really neither of these 682 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 1: things are correct, because the first state that let women 683 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: vote was actually New Jersey. Yeah, the New Jersey Assembly 684 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: passed a law in that gave women the right to 685 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: vote across the state, but then they took it back 686 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 1: in so for ten years women could vote in New Jersey, 687 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: and then that was not the case anymore. By total coincidence, 688 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: we are recording this listener mail on election day here 689 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: and there are I'm gonna be going to the polls 690 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: after we finished recording where I early voted because I 691 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: have meetings this after. So at the last minute on Friday, 692 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, Brian, we got early votes, so 693 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: I don't forget. Yeah, I did not, because the the 694 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: the the election day polling place is a lot closer 695 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: to me than the early voting location. Oh, ours are 696 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: pretty comparable. Yeah, yeah, I'm not too bad. But in 697 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: any case, Barbara, thank you for your email and pointing 698 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: that out. And then I had not known that thing 699 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: about New Jersey until I went to verify stuff and 700 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: I discovered it. So now we all learned. Today you 701 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: would like to write to us, you can do so 702 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at i heeart radio dot com. You 703 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: can also find us on social media. Is Missed in 704 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: History and if you have not subscribed yet and you 705 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: would like to, you can do so on the I 706 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 1: heart Radio app or wherever it is you listen to 707 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. Stuff you Missed in History Class is 708 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 709 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 710 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.