WEBVTT - Should chimps be used for medical testing? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.560 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:16.360 from house Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.319 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always as 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.400 Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and that makes the Stuff you 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:30.680 Should Know the podcast the Chimpagze centric podcast. Frequently I 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.080 told you about the time that chimp held my hand, right, Yeah, 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.840 that was just the best thing ever. Yeah, I mean 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.120 I think about it today, my heart melts a little, 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.760 just a little, just a little. You're a weepy guy. Yeah, 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.319 there's like ten twelve years ago, and it's still it's 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.879 worn off. Yeah, it's still melting though by degrees. Do 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:52.280 you think it will melt forever? Every time I think 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.160 of that little chimp holding my hand, it will melt 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:56.280 a tiny bit. Why don't you just go buy a 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.480 chimp and you can have it happen all the time. Dude, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:00.520 if I didn't have three dogs in two cats, I 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:02.440 would have a chimp in my house. Would you really 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.520 even after that one story? Um, remember when we started 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:12.199 blogging it happened that chimp or something. Yeah, I would 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:14.320 because that was such a big deal that made the news. 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.120 And I don't think it just that didn't happen all 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.920 the time. Okay, I would totes have a chimp. When 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.399 did you start talking like that? You're talking like my 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.679 friend Adam and it's unvous. Oh yeah, I think it's funny. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.440 It's like that, like everything's abbreviated. Yeah, yeah, Emily, and 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:32.320 not do that I totes on the totes train. Yeah 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.920 are you? I just think it's funny. Don't start saying 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.680 natsch Okay, Oh that's old school, though I know. I 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.559 still don't like it. All right, I never did toads. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:49.280 I can handle more than natch. Okay, Okay, you're ready, Yes, okay, Chuck. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.240 I want to tell you about a certain lady. Her 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.680 name is Wenka okay, and she has kind of a 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.680 rough life story. She was born into a family and this, 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:03.160 or you might say, um. She was born in nineteen 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.440 fifty four and when she was just two years old, 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:13.600 her mother died after being mistakenly poisoned. Her um mother's father, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:18.560 her grandfather, uh He was a morphine adict who died 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.600 as a result of his addiction. Her grandmother, maternal grandmother 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:28.000 died of dysentery um on. Her father said she was 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.880 one of forty grandkids. You believe that she was adopted 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.280 out at a very young age, but returned back home 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:39.680 at age three. At fifteen fifteen, she had her first daughter, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.520 and her daughter was born with Down syndrome. She died 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:49.359 at seventeen months. Eventually, Winkle went on to have another boy, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:54.000 and a boy and another girl. Um, and here's the 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:59.880 mind blowing part. She's a chimpanzee. Yes, I actually see that. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.560 I mean, and I know I was sitting there like, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:04.920 how is there a way to do this? At the 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.880 top of the Chimp podcast. That's not somebody not know 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.000 because it sounded like you were talking about a human story. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.600 But think about all of the stuff that her family 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.040 went through if they were humans, wouldn't she feel pretty 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.200 bad for well, feel bad for Whanka to And here's 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.440 why she is, as far as anyone knows, the oldest 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:30.680 primate in captivity that's still being used for research. And 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.320 she was here in Atlanta. Well, she's born in ninety 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.520 and she's been experimented on ever since. She went back 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.920 to the Yorkes Primate Institute at age three, and her 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.680 mom the one who was mistakenly poisoned. Was one of 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.000 the original ones that yer Keys got his hands on 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:55.400 in the what the forties, right, Well, in the twenties, yes, 0:03:55.640 --> 0:04:02.040 is Robert Yorke's started messing around with behavioral research, not 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:06.000 as much medical research. No, And at first you think like, oh, well, 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.960 that's that's way better. But if you have you looked 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.680 into some of the behavioral experiments that they were conducting, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.840 I'm sure it's not fun. So like one one young 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:20.279 UM chimp from I believe for this, the first thirty 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:25.400 six months of his life had UM like plastic or 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.880 some sort of obstruction over his hands and his feet, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:29.880 so he couldn't use either of them for the first 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.120 three years of life. A lot of social isolation, like 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.240 chimps spent the first two or three years of life 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:43.520 without seeing, hearing, touching anybody else's. Yes, very much so, 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:45.760 wasn't it Little Albert? Yeah, a little Albert was on 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.000 a human though the fear conditioning UM the The equivalent 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:55.520 to that was UM Harry Harlowe's experimentation of separating UM 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.600 chimps from their mothers and then raising them with like 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:03.960 wire and co and fake reconstructions UM that they would 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.160 cling to and treat as their mother, because what he 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.880 found from these experiments is that moms are really important. 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.360 That's the saddus thing I've ever heard. All Right, So 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.960 we're talking about we started this off well, I mean, 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.280 this isn't the brightest of topics, although the ending is 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.440 fairly uplifting. Past headed that way, Yeah, we won't ruin it, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.000 so chuck, let me set you up here. Um, we 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.200 have only just in the last few years come to 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:39.479 to think that animals deserve some sort of um rights. Right. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:44.640 It's a very new idea, isn't it. It is new Ish? Okay, 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:49.840 like maybe eighteenth century Newish. Yeah, England leads the way. 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:55.000 Our British friends um past the first anti cruelty laws 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.920 against animals in well even before that, Jerry May Bentham 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.800 he wrote a paper on how animals could possibly suffer 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.480 and maybe we should start treating him differently late Sevre 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.680 kudos to him. Yeah, and did you know that he 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:14.040 is mummified and they bring his body out for uh 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.880 some annual dinner dancing with the stars at the college. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.160 He's a judge at the College um where he was 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.120 a professor. They bring his body out for dinner every year. Wow, 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.960 an't that crazy? It's a little weird. Well, good for him. 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.320 Um still looks great, by the way, does he really? So? 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.320 Peter didn't start until nineteen eighty A lot of people 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:37.800 might think that Pete has been around like since the sixties. 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.400 Fairly new, um. And then the American Society for the 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:48.600 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was started in eighteen sixty six, 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:54.960 So pretty new in a world view, right, but a 0:06:55.000 --> 0:07:00.159 big picture specifically, and that's general animal rights. Yeah, but 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:05.280 chimps in particular. Um. There. I guess the idea that 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:09.440 they may be deserve even more special rights than the 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.360 average lab rat um is based on something that's also 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.880 fairly recent, which is the discovery or the idea that 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.680 we share a tremendous amount of similarity with them. There's 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:24.080 no other animal that is closer to humans than chimps, right, Yeah, 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:32.200 I think the number is just over DNA sequence of 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.840 d N a face pairing. The other part. I can't 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.080 remember what it's called. Should have written that down. Well, no, 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.240 that's very like people throw that out like chimps are 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.800 similar to humans and that's very misleading. The like you said, 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:53.040 the genetic sequence of the chromosomes that we share or 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:58.560 that are similar in apes and humans are similar. We're not. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.240 It's not like if you our DNA and put it 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.800 side by side, only two percent would be different. It's 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:07.880 not like that. And in fact, chimps have ten percent 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.760 more DNA than humans do I really, So that's that's 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.040 very misleaning to say. But the point is they are 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.360 very genetically similar, probably more than any other animal. And 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.560 we've known that since the twenties. Yeah, and similar enough 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.160 to that at a certain point people said, you know what, 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.920 We've experimented on human prisoners long enough and they say, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.880 we can't do it anymore, which is a drag. So 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.480 let's get these chimps in here and uh give them disease. 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.959 And here we reached the title of the podcast. Um. 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.559 There As as much as we would like to think 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.320 that it is a very easy moral ethical question, like 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:55.079 should chimps be used for medical research, it's not because 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:59.000 if you, as we were saying before, if you like 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:04.880 walking around not having polio or hepatitis B, yeah, um, 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.040 you can go ahead and thank a chimp for volunteering. 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.120 I'm sorry, wait, that was the absolute worst for it. 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:16.360 I could have used um for being a basically a 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:23.280 test animal on those vaccines, UM and treatments. Uh. Same 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:28.599 with contraceptives. Uh. If you like our understanding of addiction, 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.520 you can thank chimps for that. For being a space animal, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.560 let's go ahead and call that out. That's where it 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.800 all began. The US Air Force said, Hey, we got 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.280 a space race going on. Let's go get some chimps 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.240 from the wild. Shoot him up into space, put him 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.600 in sled cars, test g forces on him. See what 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:49.679 can happen. Put him on the giz rocket sled. I 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.080 guess what's his face was getting a little tired at 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.599 that point. Yeah, I couldn't see because of all the 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.160 blood pooled in his retiness. So um pre NASA, the 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.640 Air Force went and got sick five chimpanzees from the wild, 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:06.880 and a lot of these chimps are used today are 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:11.920 descendants of those original chimps because they couldn't keep going 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.880 to get them. After the Site's Convention on International Trade 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.680 and Endangered Species and seventy five, which basically said like, 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.200 hey man, you can't just start going and grabbing chimpanzeezer 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.720 other animals out of the wild. They're in danger. Exactly. 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.640 So they started breeding these chimps, right they the ones 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.200 that they already had. After SITES was passed, they said, okay, 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.600 well we'll just start making them here in America, making 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.320 them made in America. And I did find it odd 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.760 or not odd, but a little like distressing that some 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.199 of those with a lot of these chimps today are 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.520 descended from those original sixty because of breeding. And it 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.720 makes sense. But who knew, Well the same with yer Keys, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.960 his primates that he had in the twenties, those original 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.240 four that was the captive breeding program as well. I 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.200 think he definitely supplemented them with um imports. Yeah, you know, 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.800 because it was prior to SITES. But he had you know, 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.280 bread bread, He bred them, they bred, they bred, They 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.680 did it um And like you pointed out, we should 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.920 uh say that yr kis is now in Atlanta here 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:21.120 in Emery University. After being in Florida for twenty some 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.880 eighty years, they moved to Atlanta and sponsored by Yale before. Yeah, 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:26.800 and they got two point five acres at the main 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.120 station here in Atlanta and then in Lawrenceville just up 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.560 the road they have the field station, a hundred and 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:39.720 seventeen acres of chimpanzee breeding and testing facilities. It's where 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:44.880 chimps go to get their drugs. Chimpanzees are endangered, their 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:51.559 native to Africa and uh because of their similarities, they thought, 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.880 you know this HIV thing in the eighties, maybe we 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.400 should start injecting these chimps and see how and if 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.760 they develop AIDS. That's what changed everything. The combination of 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:08.000 sites and the appearance of AIDS um combined with chimp similarity, 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:12.400 like really changed everything. We had a captive breeding program. 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:16.320 The federal government sponsored it, and so it became very, 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.240 very big and mysterious new disease. Yeah, the fear of 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.600 AIDS and HIV was so enormous that they within just 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.160 a few years of this captive breeding program that was 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.200 started by the National Institutes of Health in I think 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.880 maybe within a year two, there were I think five 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:38.520 chimps running around with HIV. The big problem was, as 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.760 we soon found out that while they can carry HIV, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.280 and chimps are the only other animal besides humans that 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.240 can contract HIV because cats have their own, dogs have 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:53.600 their own um, other other apes and primates have their own, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:59.560 but only but only humans and chimps can have HIV um, 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.480 we on the chimps don't get AIDS, they don't go 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.199 they don't move into full blown AIDS. Yeah, at least 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.600 not like humans do. And so it was kind of 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.400 a big failure on that front. And all the progress 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.040 we've made on AIDS rechurch has been because of human 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:22.000 experimentation basically or watching and seeing. Well, this is another 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.480 way to put it. Uh nine six The Animal Well 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:32.400 Welfare Act outline minimum care requirements for all animals and captivity. Right, 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.360 So these chimps were, you know, before the site's program, 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.679 the ones that they were importing, they still had some 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.040 sort of protection, but it wasn't you know, there weren't 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.040 that many bells and whistles. It was pretty pretty Southwest 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:48.520 Airlines not really Singapore air you know. Uh, I would 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.520 thought you would have said, like Virgin Atlantic or something. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.320 Singapore are really nice. Really, it's up there with like Emirates, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.920 Emirates Singapore Japan Airlines is pretty nice to concord. Remember that, Yeah, 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.800 we should do one on that. Do you remember the 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.680 time that Phil Collins played a show in London and 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.600 then Flute was it for live and he played two 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:11.800 shows and two different continents within each other. Awesome, Thank 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:16.000 you Concord, Thank you Phil Collins. Yeah, well, I thought 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.000 that might go without saying. I can just open my 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.520 shirt and shraining my t shirt to say that. And 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.440 by the way, that's a huge urban legend that he 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:28.640 saw his girlfriends rapist in the audience drowning not true. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.160 Makes for a good story though. Yeah. All right, getting 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.360 back to Animal Welfare Act. You said it was didn't 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.160 have the bells and whistles, said temperatures had to stay 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.000 between forty and eighty five degrees fahrenheit, not bad, keep 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.840 him comfortable, Uh, gotta give him food and water. Gotta 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:48.960 isolate the sick ones, even though you can get a 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.280 waiver on that if they're supposed to be sick among 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.560 their their friends. Imagine that wasn't too hard to get 0:14:55.560 --> 0:15:00.720 that exception. And um, basically it applied to all chimpanzees 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.280 were both biomedical and behavioral research, which was good, and 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.160 all animals, any animal that's being experimented on, any warm 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.040 blooded animals or in captivity period. Okay, like I think 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.160 it had just applied to zoos and everything, gotcha, that's good. Yeah, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.760 So we had that in place in sixty six sites 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.960 came along in seventy five, the chimpanzee breeding program came 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:27.000 along in and then when that collapsed and failed, UM, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.360 the US government was like, oh, what are we gonna 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.040 do here? We've got literally hundreds of chips running around 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.840 with HIV there like if they come in contact with people, 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:43.880 especially sickos, they could spread right well and they don't 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.760 live to be twelve, no, sixty. Yeah, So that's and 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.600 they cost some money to you know, hows and fifteen 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.080 bucks a day, So it doesn't sound like a lot, 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.840 but it adds up. That adds up, especially when um 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.840 there was only about I think five hundred that had HIV, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.520 but there was something on the order of like twelve 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.880 the undred that were that the government was responsible for. 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.960 And it wasn't just the failure of the HIV AIDS studies. Uh. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.760 You can thank Jane Goodall um and groups like Peter 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.200 and the s p c A in the Humane Society 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.680 in the early eighties around this time when chimp research 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.520 was really at its peak, UM for kind of a 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:29.240 learning the public to the cruelty of animal testing and research. 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.120 The Army of the Twelve Monkeys. Yeah, you can thank them, 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:39.080 I did. It was Uh, we should talk a little 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.360 bit about the the Kalston or Colston Foundation um that 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.480 is now defunct. It was shut down in two thousand two. 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.040 And here's the deal. Uh, it's controversial depending on who 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:57.280 you asked. Frederick Colston was the guy who was a 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:02.120 toxicologist who helped develop tree meant for malaria and hepatitis 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.480 B and AIDS or it was a house of horrors 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.400 and he performed experiments on human prisoners and then moved 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.760 to chimps. And uh, you know when one test chimps 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.639 had their teeth smashed in with a steel ball so 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:22.600 they could practice reconstructed reconstructed dental surgery, nine three chimps 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.119 were cooked to death when the temperature in there and 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.200 this is New Mexico and their unmonitored enclosure topped a 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:34.159 hundred and forty degrees And since n three chimps and 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.639 I think forty like forty five animals and all died 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.000 quote unintended deaths at the Colston Foundation. So you know, 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:44.840 it sounds like some awful, awful thing going on. But 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.240 then again, he's developing these treatments for these awful diseases, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.920 so it's a very dicey situation. But they were shut 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.240 down in two thousand two because uh, negligent care on 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.119 a lot of fronts and any any I mean, there's 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.080 there are plenty of people who have like a really 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:06.560 good um there. They have really good ground to stand 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.480 on by saying like any animal testing is bad and 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.879 it doesn't matter how well you treat these animals, like 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.520 shouldn't be experimenting on where they put on this earth 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.520 to test to save humans. Some people back that. Some 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:22.360 people don't write UM. So oh you know, very recently 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.240 I saw UM. There was some researcher associated with the 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:31.760 Center for Great Apes. Yeah, yeah, apparently there's like a 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.359 number of them, uh, and one of them is in 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.720 Des Moines, and apparently somebody slashed the heels of UM 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.560 an infant chimp to keep it from being able to 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.760 stand upright. And this is like December, like a couple 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:48.560 of months ago. So one of the one of the 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:54.040 researchers acted as a whistleblower. Yeah, um or for a test, 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.440 not that I don't think that was the I don't 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.720 think that was the experiment. I think it was related 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.159 to it. But one of the researchers there was like, 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.239 I'm getting this chimp and all the rest of them 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.639 out of here and taking them down to another center 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.919 for grade eights UM, the main one in Florida. Yeah, well, 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.120 just to finish up on the Coulson Foundation. The good 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.240 news is, as of two thousand ten, about half of 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.760 the TCF chimps are now living at Save the Chimps, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.120 which is basically where you want to be if you're 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:30.200 a retired chimp. Swinging, playing, running around, eating bananas, holding hands, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.520 all that good chimp stuff. So well, let's talk about this. 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.280 That's the result of a sea change that was started 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.120 by Jane Goodall and and Peter and UM, a lot 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.840 of the Animal Liberation Front UM and Matthew Broderick. Yeah, 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.520 what was the name of that Project X? And interestingly, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.359 real quick I just saw today. I didn't realize this 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:58.159 Project X was a movie that raised awareness for mistreatment 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.560 of chimps, obviously in medical reas, but Bob Barker at 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.880 the time accused them of mistreating animals on the set. Yeah, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.520 here's a huge, huge animal cruelty guys. And he got 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.199 sued for defamation for that really yeah, and settled out 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.639 of court, actually against his wishes. He settled out of 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.560 court because he still believed that they were mistreated and 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.399 like said that they were like clubs and billy clubs 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.560 and batons used and they used like a snake to 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.119 scare the chimps and stuff to get reactions. Yeah, but 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.040 that was just a joke. That was just a you know, 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.800 a prank on set in between takes. But yeah, projects 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:35.600 go to see it, Hele and Hunt, go see it 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.879 in your in the theater near you in your time machine. 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:41.560 Did you see the Ferrespeuler commercial at the I saw 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:42.960 it out of the corner of my eye at the 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.600 superb Owl. Were you disgusted? Uh? I was looking forward 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:48.280 to it because I heard about it beforehand and it 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:53.320 was it was pretty bad. Yeah. Hey man, he's got 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.320 to support his kids. Oh dude, I'm sure he made 0:20:55.359 --> 0:21:00.280 a mint good for him. Um. So, okay. We were 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.000 talking about Matthew Broderick in his career UM, which led 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.120 directly to a sea change in how people feel about 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:13.200 animal testing and specifically about chimpanzee testing UM, which is 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.160 kind of evidenced by the fact that Congress and its 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:22.040 endless ability to pass legislation with qut si names and acronyms. 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.400 This one was surprised me even in two thousand, Congress 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:30.359 pens the Chimpanzee Health Improvement, Maintenance and Protection Act. And 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.600 guess what that spells out, chimp. Yeah, they passed the 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:37.400 Chimp Act in two thousand and Basically this said your 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.200 captive breeding program was gone once a chimp is retired 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:46.480 from biomedical testing or behavioral testing. I believe too, you are. 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:49.960 You can't kill it, sorry, all those um monkeys running 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.159 around with HIV, you can't euthanize them. You have to 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.520 provide for their care for the rest of their lives 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.480 and natural natural lives, which is pretty cool. It's bad 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:03.560 enough that given them HIV, at least care for them. 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:07.440 But this extends only as far as I know to UM. 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:15.160 Federally funded chimp programs, pharmaceutical companies that own it's federally 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.160 funded in pharmaceutical companies. All the chimps in the United 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.760 States are owned by them. That aren't pets, I should say, um, 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:26.320 they pharmacutic companies exist outside of this act, of course, 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:33.040 So Josh, if I were to ask you how many 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:37.840 countries in the world in the world still experiment on 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.919 chimpanzees legally, what would be I would say? Since the 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:48.560 United States, since a um, it's such a standard bearer 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:54.480 of human rights and animal rights. Sure that if the 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:58.480 United States still allows it, at least ninety two a 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.640 hundred and five other countries allow testing on chimpanzees. Am 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:04.480 I right, you did a very good job of playing 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.359 them there. By the way, uh No, United States and 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:11.640 Gabon are the only two countries in the world that's 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:19.280 still performed biomedical testing on chimpanzees. Great Britain said no more. Uh. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.000 Netherlands in two thousand two. I can't even speak Dutch. 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.160 That would be a travesty. Uh, Sweden in two thousand three, 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:28.760 Austria two thousand six, Japan two thousand six. Everyone said, 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.680 we're drawn a line in the sand. United States still 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:36.400 allows it. But two months ago, three months ago, December 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:41.320 of last year, big news, the n i H suspended 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:45.200 all new grants awesome for biomedical and behavioral research on 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:49.760 chimps or apes the great the great apes um which 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:53.000 by the chimps, the great apes are chimps, guerrillas, bona bows, 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:57.720 and orangutanes. Correct um. So they suspended all new grants. 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:00.639 That doesn't mean that you can't test anymore. They basically 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:04.840 established some pretty rigorous criteria moving forward, which means it's 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.680 got to be necessary for human health and there must 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:11.560 be no other possible way to accomplish it. And basically 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:13.600 it's kind of being looked at as the beginning of 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.840 the end because they're finding that nowadays, with cultures and 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:21.080 cellular research, you don't need to experiment on chips anymore. 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.000 You can find out all you need to know Petrie dish. Yeah, 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:26.439 the n I H said, hey, um, over the next 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:31.119 four years, we're gonna hypercharge our biomedical testing. So we 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:33.520 so we, like you said, it can just exist in 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:36.880 the Petrie dish from now and we don't have to well, basically, 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:40.240 single celled animals that are going to start to bear 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:46.359 the broad no far our desire ceaseless quest for immortality health. 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:48.960 But you can't hold the hand of an amiba. No, 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:50.760 but if you could, I'll bet it would melt you. 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:55.200 Hepatitis apparently is one of two areas that they think 0:24:55.240 --> 0:25:00.119 it could still be useful for. And um, but it 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:04.320 sounds like they're genuinely phasing it out. That's great, it's 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:09.560 about time. After that it'll just be on gabone. So 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:12.919 hats off to places like Save the chimps and what 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.639 were some of the other ones. Uh, the Center for 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:17.479 Great Apes, which by the way, I don't want to 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:19.919 defame them at all, not even for legal reasons, like 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:22.479 they do a good job. Um. I looked them up. 0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:26.320 I looked up Save the Chimps, UM, Chimp Haven, the 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:30.960