Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 3: our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in mid to late July of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. We are going to be talking about
Speaker 2: rest and also what we're calling a trade Off manifesto,
Speaker 2: a way that people can get enough rest despite having
Speaker 2: a busy life. So we're going to be rethinking what
Speaker 2: rest means and also talking strategies for getting rest.
Speaker 1: Sarah, why did you want to do this topic?
Speaker 2: So sometimes we have different ones of us suggest different topics,
Speaker 2: and this was definitely a Sarah suggestion. So maybe you
Speaker 2: can talk a little bit about why you wanted to
Speaker 2: do the topic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I came up with rest actually, and
Speaker 3: you came up with trade off, which makes sense. You're like,
Speaker 3: I have a practical solution to your rest dilemma. I
Speaker 3: just feel like I see this a lot. I mean,
Speaker 3: we had that period of time when a lot of
Speaker 3: books were about doing nothing and resting, etc. And they
Speaker 3: were interesting, So I feel like it continues to be
Speaker 3: a little bit of a hot topic. I think I've
Speaker 3: gotten some questions about this, both in my Best Laid
Speaker 3: Plans universe and also to our Best of Both Worlds.
Speaker 3: Listeners have asked about this, and I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people kind of talk about being frustrated with the
Speaker 3: ways they use their downtime, or like maybe saying something
Speaker 3: like I don't have any downtime, but then if you
Speaker 3: question them, they may actually spend a lot of their
Speaker 3: time doing things they don't want to be doing and
Speaker 3: feel a certain way about it. So I thought this
Speaker 3: would be a fun way for us to just kind
Speaker 3: of explore this topic and talk about it a little more,
Speaker 3: including the ways that we rest, ways to enjoy rest.
Speaker 3: And then you came up with the idea that one
Speaker 3: way that we can get some rest as parents is
Speaker 3: to make sure our partners are helping us achieve our
Speaker 3: rest goals. I guess I.
Speaker 2: Don't know our rest goals. Yes, we have goals about
Speaker 2: everything around here. I have to admit I'm a little
Speaker 2: bit skeptical of all the rest stuff. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: certainly books talking about how we're all so overworked and
Speaker 2: busy and we have to grab at rest from some
Speaker 2: evil culture that doesn't want us to rest.
Speaker 1: The culture doesn't care if you rest or not.
Speaker 2: Honestly, and I think practically, the data is that the
Speaker 2: average person has a reasonable amount of downtime in their lives.
Speaker 2: The American Time You Survey comes out every June. Came
Speaker 2: out in twenty twenty four. Looking at all the days
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, thousands of Americans talking through their
Speaker 2: previous day four am to four am on an average day,
Speaker 2: I am quoting nearly everyone aged fifteen and over engaged
Speaker 2: in some sort of leisure. The vast majority had many hours.
Speaker 2: Most of this is spent on screens. If you look
Speaker 2: at the time devoted to different things, a lot of
Speaker 2: people still watching TV. Interestingly enough, I don't know exactly
Speaker 2: how the American Time Youth Survey is counting all sorts
Speaker 2: of video watching, Like is video watching on a phone
Speaker 2: now being counted as sort of watching TV. It's hard
Speaker 2: to know, but point being that the average American is
Speaker 2: watching two point seven hours of television per day even
Speaker 2: in this day and age, different proportions of people using
Speaker 2: screens for leisure, games, socializing, and communicating whatever. It's all
Speaker 2: a long list. People who have kids young kids at
Speaker 2: home under age six have fewer hours per day of
Speaker 2: leisure than other people. It comes out to about three
Speaker 2: point three hours per day versus at least an hour
Speaker 2: more than that for people who do not have kids
Speaker 2: at home. And also that people between the ages of
Speaker 2: like thirty five and forty four, I think have the
Speaker 2: least about And so what was coming out of this
Speaker 2: data for me is not that people who are like
Speaker 2: in the demographic who watch listen to this podcast, so
Speaker 2: you know, working parents with generally younger kids don't have
Speaker 2: zero downtime, is that they tend to have less than
Speaker 2: other people. And that may be parents versus non parents.
Speaker 2: To some degree, men versus women. Men have a little
Speaker 2: bit more than women do, and I think this may
Speaker 2: explain why it's a sore point. So again, not that
Speaker 2: working mothers get zero downtime, is that they get less
Speaker 2: than other people in their lives, and so the comparison
Speaker 2: is the part that can really start to irk.
Speaker 3: I could see that question when they get this data,
Speaker 3: are they asking people to recall a twenty four hour
Speaker 3: window or are they like buzzing people on their phones
Speaker 3: at three pm and saying, what are you doing now?
Speaker 2: Well, it's yesterday, right, So it's talking through yesterday, which
Speaker 2: is the American Timey Survey day. If I remember correctly,
Speaker 2: it starts at four am, goes to four am, so
Speaker 2: they're like, what were you doing at four am yesterday?
Speaker 1: What did you do next?
Speaker 2: And people can generally recall the previous twenty four hours
Speaker 2: quite well. Past that, it starts to disappear rapidly, so
Speaker 2: you remember, you know, lunch yesterday, You don't remember lunch
Speaker 2: two days ago. I don't know why that is. There's
Speaker 2: something with the human brain of how this goes. But
Speaker 2: there have been comparisons of doing this reconstructive method of
Speaker 2: talking it through versus like checking in buzzing, And it's
Speaker 2: pretty accurate. It's not one hundred percent accurate, but it's
Speaker 2: very close. And so you know, I mean, we have
Speaker 2: often these stories we tell about our lives of like oh,
Speaker 2: I have no free time whatsoever.
Speaker 1: But that's based on the.
Speaker 2: Day where you were working late and you had three
Speaker 2: kid activities and some plumbing went awry and so you
Speaker 2: spent all potential leisure time dealing with the plumber.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, well that was one day.
Speaker 3: On another day you were on a disney cruise with
Speaker 3: childcare all day and massage.
Speaker 1: For now, it just.
Speaker 2: Depends which day do we find you that we decide
Speaker 2: which is typical. And of course, you know, one of
Speaker 2: the things we like to talk about in this podcast
Speaker 2: is that we want to look at all of life,
Speaker 2: not one particular moment, but the comparison thing is what
Speaker 2: I think gets a lot of people, and so we'll
Speaker 2: definitely talk about that. But first, you don't want to
Speaker 2: talk little bit about rethinking rest. Rest doesn't always need
Speaker 2: to look like a day at the spa, nor does
Speaker 2: it actually need to look at like sitting on the couch,
Speaker 2: because in many cases, sitting on the couch scrolling around
Speaker 2: online doesn't.
Speaker 1: Actually feel all that RESTful.
Speaker 2: It can in certain moments, I guess, But the purpose
Speaker 2: of rest, I would say, is to rejuvenate you and
Speaker 2: add to your energy levels. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 2: is that what you were thinking about with rest?
Speaker 3: That's such an interesting question, because you're right, Like, and
Speaker 3: I made a joke about rest goals, and I don't
Speaker 3: love the idea of like rest framed as like something
Speaker 3: you have to do to be more productive later. Like
Speaker 3: I think there should be enjoyment of rest for rest's sake,
Speaker 3: and for me, a lot of the activities that I
Speaker 3: find RESTful are also inherently enjoyable in and of themselves.
Speaker 3: So but you're right, I guess you could have sort
Speaker 3: of some of each. That's an interesting question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 2: Mean that rest could be lying down closing your eyes,
Speaker 2: but rest could also be going for a solo walk
Speaker 2: outside to clear your head. I mean, rest could be
Speaker 2: doing a hobby that you find relaxing. So there's different
Speaker 2: ways to think about it. So I would encourage people
Speaker 2: not to just think of it as I need more
Speaker 2: time on the couch, because for some of this that
Speaker 2: doesn't actually sound that appealing to me. I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe it does to other people. Sometimes it really does.
Speaker 3: As we'll talk about our own favorite forms of rest,
Speaker 3: mine often does involve a couch, So that's I guess
Speaker 3: okay too. If that brings you joy and rejuvenation, And
Speaker 3: I don't know the right kind of what you need
Speaker 3: to recover from the rest of life. My running coach
Speaker 3: likes to say that there are no recovery runs. It's
Speaker 3: only like preparation runs or something. But I don't know.
Speaker 3: I kind of think there should be recovery time built
Speaker 3: into our lives, particularly if we do maybe push hard
Speaker 3: in other realms with our kids, with work, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Exactly, All right, Well, we're going to take a quick
Speaker 2: ad break and then we'll be back to talk about
Speaker 2: what rest looks like and how we can get more
Speaker 2: of it. Well, we are back talking all things rest
Speaker 2: and then how we might be able to engineer more
Speaker 2: RESTful times into a busy life with work and young kids. So, Sarah,
Speaker 2: what are your favorite forms of rest if you are
Speaker 2: going to make a list of things you find RESTful.
Speaker 3: So, my most favorite RESTful activities are to have a
Speaker 3: book that is fun to read, and to lie down
Speaker 3: on the couch and read it and then maybe even
Speaker 3: let it turn into a nap or perhaps lie down
Speaker 3: with the purposes of taking a nap, but like kind
Speaker 3: of to read first as like a little prelude and
Speaker 3: I would say my kind of alternate form of rest
Speaker 3: if I'm even kind of too tired to read or
Speaker 3: just not in the mood to read, would be letting
Speaker 3: myself lie around and either text with friends or a
Speaker 3: family member, or maybe even watch like one of my
Speaker 3: favorite YouTube creators that do planning stuff. And I'm not
Speaker 3: a heavy YouTube user, so it's not like I'm like
Speaker 3: clicking around constantly or keeping up with certain things, but
Speaker 3: there are like very few channels I enjoy checking in on,
Speaker 3: and if I'm just completely like unable to do much else,
Speaker 3: then that is often what I will go to. We've
Speaker 3: talked at length about various social media et cetera. I
Speaker 3: quit read It one month ago. I have not been
Speaker 3: on since June fifteenth, so that's kind of exciting, and
Speaker 3: I feel like I did after. I mean, there were
Speaker 3: times when I use social media for rest, but I
Speaker 3: found it very unrestful and actually probably a little bit stressful,
Speaker 3: and had kind of found Reddit creeping in as like
Speaker 3: my social media substitute, so intentionally talk about manifestos. Quitting
Speaker 3: that has been very very positive for me, and so
Speaker 3: that is no longer a former rest that I turned to.
Speaker 3: But I will say that I in the past did
Speaker 3: some of that as well.
Speaker 1: So I have a question.
Speaker 2: When you read with the idea that it's going to
Speaker 2: turn into a nap, do like actually put down your
Speaker 2: book to then consciously go to sleep or does it kind.
Speaker 1: Of like fall on you? Like how does this work?
Speaker 3: Oh? No, I consciously put it down. So I do
Speaker 3: a lot of my fiction reading lying down, So I'm
Speaker 3: like laying on the couch on pillows, maybe with a blanket,
Speaker 3: and then like when I'm like, oh, I'm I just
Speaker 3: read this page three times. Perfect, put the book down,
Speaker 3: go to sleep, go to sever nap. Okay.
Speaker 2: I was just wondering, you know, if this is one
Speaker 2: of these things. I know some people fall asleep reading,
Speaker 2: and I've always wondered exactly what that looks like, because
Speaker 2: it feels like then there's a heavy book that winds
Speaker 2: up on you some way, shape or form.
Speaker 3: I know what that looks like because my husband does
Speaker 3: it sometimes. Yeah, so does one of my kids. But no,
Speaker 3: I usually like actually put it down.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, the humor with that, I remember somebody telling me
Speaker 2: about this. I was talking about somebody how they made
Speaker 2: more time to read, and she mentioned you often is
Speaker 2: falling asleep reading and then she wakes up because her
Speaker 2: husban's like taking her glasses off.
Speaker 1: She's in her bed.
Speaker 2: I was like, you can fall asleep with your glasses
Speaker 2: on while holding a book.
Speaker 1: That's impressive. I don't believe I can do that. My
Speaker 1: rest is there's a couple of things I like to do.
Speaker 2: I like to sit in our hammock when the weather
Speaker 2: is nice and read, or maybe it's reading stories and books,
Speaker 2: but it could also be on my phone. I don't
Speaker 2: mind using my phone for a little bit of downtime.
Speaker 2: Going on a solo swim.
Speaker 1: Again, this is summer.
Speaker 2: Being in the pool on my own, just sort of
Speaker 2: floating around is very RESTful to me. Doesn't happen very
Speaker 2: often because I tend to be lifeguarding other people. But
Speaker 2: I will take the moments when I'm there on my
Speaker 2: own doing puzzles, like doing a puzzle. Although I've had
Speaker 2: to choose the right kinds of puzzles because now that
Speaker 2: I've done enough of them, I have definite preferences, and
Speaker 2: sometimes I really want ones that are not mentally that taxing.
Speaker 2: It's like a little taxing, but I kind of like
Speaker 2: the ones where you're not totally stumped of where things go.
Speaker 2: I find one hundred and fifty pieces of blue Sky
Speaker 2: to be just tedious and not my favorite form of
Speaker 2: puzzle doing. So I've been making sure to find puzzles
Speaker 2: that are a little bit more filled in than that,
Speaker 2: so I don't have to text my brain too much.
Speaker 2: I like you, I find I spend a lot of
Speaker 2: time texting. I don't know I was adding up my
Speaker 2: texting time looking at my screen time function as many
Speaker 2: hours a week, which I have not really included in
Speaker 2: my mental model of what life looks like because it's
Speaker 2: so quick, usually back and forth, like you know, three
Speaker 2: minutes here and there are not even that. But obviously
Speaker 2: it adds up if you look at the amount of
Speaker 2: time you spend on messages on your phone.
Speaker 3: And I find texting like one of my favorite uses
Speaker 3: of the phone. I love my various groups that I have,
Speaker 3: my college friends, texting you, texting my sister, texting my parents. Like,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of texting in my day to day,
Speaker 3: and I'm not sad about that particular motive device use.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I also just like to sit with
Speaker 2: my cup of coffee for a little bit.
Speaker 1: One thing I've been doing.
Speaker 2: If I'm up early enough, is sometimes I will make
Speaker 2: my coffee and go sit outside. Again, morning tends to
Speaker 2: be nice in Pennsylvania in summer, although it's been a
Speaker 2: bit muggy lately. But if I just challenge myself to
Speaker 2: kind of sit and not look at my phone, or
Speaker 2: sit and look at the sky and all that, even
Speaker 2: five minutes can feel pretty long with no distractions, and
Speaker 2: so being aware of what time is available, and if
Speaker 2: you're not trying to distract yourself with other things, you
Speaker 2: can get into that kind of WHOA.
Speaker 1: I've had some downtime state fairly quickly with that.
Speaker 2: But we encourage people to make a list, like make
Speaker 2: a list of the things that you find RESTful, so
Speaker 2: you at least have these top of mind. You also
Speaker 2: want to think about how you are building in rest
Speaker 2: into your life. And sometimes this is again if we're
Speaker 2: thinking one hundred and sixty eight hours, not twenty four,
Speaker 2: thinking through busy periods and less busy periods. Sarah, you've
Speaker 2: actually made a conscious choice of how to structure your
Speaker 2: schedule to deal with post call needing a little bit
Speaker 2: more downtime. Maybe you can talk about that.
Speaker 3: Yes, I find myself absolutely use. So my call is
Speaker 3: from Monday morning to the next Monday morning, and currently
Speaker 3: I also have Monday as a clinic day, so that
Speaker 3: means basically, I mean until Monday at five pm. I'm like,
Speaker 3: it's just all clinical stuff and a lot of responsibility
Speaker 3: and a lot of stress no matter how long I
Speaker 3: do it, and that's okay. Again not resenting the stress,
Speaker 3: but I have to acknowledge it at the same time.
Speaker 3: And the next day is a Tuesday, which is usually
Speaker 3: a like podcasting day, et cetera. And I have found that,
Speaker 3: like I don't want to do anything on that day
Speaker 3: and I very much just crave some quiet, some silence,
Speaker 3: some just downtime because I didn't get any on that
Speaker 3: past weekend. Even if it wasn't a busy weekend, I'm
Speaker 3: still thinking about the patients. I'm still sort of like
Speaker 3: in it. So I just need like a I need
Speaker 3: a recharge period. So my very low tech and ridiculous
Speaker 3: solution is that my next call week, I was like,
Speaker 3: let me just write on my planner, don't schedule anything,
Speaker 3: because I will if I don't, like specifically have some
Speaker 3: kind of block, I will put stuff and you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes you end up putting stuff anyway. But at least
Speaker 3: I can be mindful of the intensity of those activities,
Speaker 3: like I'm not going to schedule a talk and invited
Speaker 3: talk on that day or something like that, or a
Speaker 3: mega recording session with Laura, as fun as those are,
Speaker 3: Like I need some time not to be on stage,
Speaker 3: and that post call day is really really important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've learned over the years that after I give
Speaker 2: a speech, I tend not to be able to do
Speaker 2: much focused work. And so especially if I'm like getting
Speaker 2: on an airplane after a speech. In my mind, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: that's great work time, and then I've sort of realized, no,
Speaker 2: it's not great work time. I tend to be like
Speaker 2: I've been on and performing and then I need to
Speaker 2: kind of not do that for a while. And I've
Speaker 2: done back to back speeches, like I have done two
Speaker 2: in a day, but it is very taxing when you
Speaker 2: need to do that, and so I need to be
Speaker 2: mindful of like, Okay, probably I'll just read a magazine
Speaker 2: on the flight on the way home and give myself
Speaker 2: permission to do that and build that into my model
Speaker 2: of how the work is getting done in the course
Speaker 2: of the week. Fine to do work on the flight
Speaker 2: there flight home maybe not happening so much unless it's
Speaker 2: the next day that I'm flying out. Totally makes sense.
Speaker 2: What about during drink Oh, go ahead, Yeah, I was
Speaker 2: gonna say during individual days, right, there are times that
Speaker 2: you find you need some rest. I mean again fun
Speaker 2: as these recording sessions are, I find if I've been
Speaker 2: talking into a microphone for several hours, I probably need
Speaker 2: to like not do anything for at least thirty minutes
Speaker 2: after I finally turned the microphone off.
Speaker 3: I would say, for me, it's like during my clinical days,
Speaker 3: I've been talking, talking, talking, and also kind of moving
Speaker 3: as fast as possible, like writing my notes, like kind
Speaker 3: of an overdrive, and so I really crave that. It's
Speaker 3: not always a full hour, but from like twelve fifteen
Speaker 3: to one, I'm usually able to just do things that
Speaker 3: are much lower speed and for me or it's like
Speaker 3: lunch with friends or whatever. My manager was like, oh,
Speaker 3: do you want to start your afternoon earlier so you
Speaker 3: can finish earlier, because I guess some of my colleagues
Speaker 3: wanted that, and I was like, absolutely not. I know
Speaker 3: that I won't be able to go into the afternoon
Speaker 3: with the right energy and mindset if I don't have
Speaker 3: at least like a little bit of unwinding between the
Speaker 3: two sessions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've found it's helpful when I'm trying to
Speaker 2: get into a RESTful mindset. A phrase that I I've
Speaker 2: been using a lot is cultivate a Saturday vibe. And now,
Speaker 2: again both of us have lived through Saturdays with like
Speaker 2: two year olds.
Speaker 1: That is not what we mean. We mean more the.
Speaker 2: Ideal Saturday where you maybe ease into the day and
Speaker 2: you have a few things you need to get done,
Speaker 2: but you're sort of moving a little bit slower and
Speaker 2: doing fun things and interspersed with it. If you have
Speaker 2: that kind of mindset of being in a Saturday mode,
Speaker 2: that can kind of help you think about restfulness and
Speaker 2: what you're trying to achieve.
Speaker 3: So is your summer Saturday mode in general or no.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to Yeah, I say, well, if June is
Speaker 2: the Friday night of summer, I guess July is a Saturday.
Speaker 2: So I've been telling myself to have a Saturday vibe
Speaker 2: for July. Sometimes that's happening more than others.
Speaker 1: But you know, super fun.
Speaker 3: I like it.
Speaker 1: It's all good. It's all good. So why is rest
Speaker 1: a hot topic?
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I read somewhere that like does
Speaker 2: a feminist issue, which I don't know if that's the case,
Speaker 2: but because I think many people don't feel that rest
Speaker 2: is entirely equal in their lives, whether it's with other
Speaker 2: people they know, sometimes with their own partners, or even
Speaker 2: like their older children, I think that this is the
Speaker 2: thing that needs to be addressed. I know I've found
Speaker 2: myself feeling slightly resentful. If you know, we've just had
Speaker 2: dinner and my kids all like walk off and the
Speaker 2: kitchen still has to be cleaned up, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why do you go get to watch
Speaker 2: your phone while I'm loading the dishwasher. This doesn't seem right.
Speaker 2: Why do you feel even entitled to walk off and
Speaker 2: go on your phone? If because obviously I will stop
Speaker 2: people and ask them to help. But then it gets
Speaker 2: a little bit like, wait a minute, why.
Speaker 3: Did I even have to ask? Why is this considered
Speaker 3: part of your purview as well?
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah that why are you going to rest so quickly?
Speaker 2: And I do not automatically get this. So this brings
Speaker 2: us to part two, which is the trade off manifesto.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you called it a manifesto because I
Speaker 3: love manifestos.
Speaker 1: You love manifestos.
Speaker 3: I just think that it's perfect trade off manifesto.
Speaker 2: How do you for sure get rest if you have
Speaker 2: little kids, for instance, and a busy life, and if
Speaker 2: you are in a two parent family, Adopting a very
Speaker 2: explicit strategy of trading off for blocks of time over
Speaker 2: who is with the kids allows each party to have
Speaker 2: some moments of real rest, even though there are little
Speaker 2: people around who need constant vigilance.
Speaker 1: And one way to think about this.
Speaker 2: Which I know some folks who gotten divorced and wound
Speaker 2: up with fifty to fifty co parenting arrangements. Each of
Speaker 2: them is then fully on with the kids fifty percent
Speaker 2: of the time, and for many people that has been
Speaker 2: a growing and learning experience if they were not used
Speaker 2: to being fully on with the kids fifty percent of
Speaker 2: the time, but now they are doing it and everyone
Speaker 2: is dealing, and the idea is, well, why not do
Speaker 2: at least some of that while you're still married so
Speaker 2: you don't necessarily wind up in a resentful situation over
Speaker 2: this where it confess to and lead to problems in
Speaker 2: the marriage long term, or you know, hopefully not ending
Speaker 2: over something like.
Speaker 3: This where you want your free time so badly, you're like, fine,
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1: Fifty to fifty sounds great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now we want to make sure that you can
Speaker 2: have free time while remaining happily partnered, if that is
Speaker 2: your current state. So the idea is that you actually
Speaker 2: map it out because I think many women, and again
Speaker 2: we speak mostly with women in this, their partners are
Speaker 2: kind of an under utilized resource in the quest to
Speaker 2: get downtime. Like you all hang out together on weekends
Speaker 2: or evenings, and that's great, but I mean, the guy
Speaker 2: is willing to be helpful. But if you are the
Speaker 2: primary parent and the kids consider you the primary parents,
Speaker 2: and even when you're all hanging out together, like you're
Speaker 2: all sitting on the couch, the kid is asking you
Speaker 2: to go get the drink of water. It is a mommy,
Speaker 2: I need help with the potty or mommy, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just and so you don't get the downtime, and
Speaker 2: it can lead to this resentful because you're all there,
Speaker 2: but neither you are not getting any of the rest
Speaker 2: so half hours where each of.
Speaker 1: You is officially in charge.
Speaker 3: I mean, do you guys, do this at all, I
Speaker 3: would say we at this juncture, do not do it explicitly.
Speaker 3: I did find a blog post and I had a
Speaker 3: memory of doing it very explicitly when we had one
Speaker 3: like eight month old, and I really felt like I
Speaker 3: needed some time to just not be I think she
Speaker 3: was newly crawling, so it was at that stage where
Speaker 3: you're like, I am on injury prevention every single second
Speaker 3: she is awake, because it's like otherwise head injuries happen
Speaker 3: and it's my fault. So one weekend I was like,
Speaker 3: let's literally take shifts. And by the way, the naps
Speaker 3: don't count, so you don't get to be like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: my shift she.
Speaker 1: Happened one to three in the afternoon. Yes, And I
Speaker 1: like mapped it.
Speaker 3: Out specifically so that like during her awake time we
Speaker 3: were sharing. And I think I remember when I first
Speaker 3: posed this, it was like huh, like why and it's
Speaker 3: like but then actually he was like, Okay, I kind
Speaker 3: of see it because the fact that I was like
Speaker 3: why means that maybe you.
Speaker 1: Were doing defaults.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he was like doing it, but I
Speaker 3: was like the default doing it. And again there was breastfeeding,
Speaker 3: like there were reasons for that to some extent, but anyway,
Speaker 3: it did work on that day. The blog post strikes
Speaker 3: me as somewhat embarrassing for whatever reason now, but yes,
Speaker 3: we did it in a very explicit way back then,
Speaker 3: and I think that can work in certain scenarios. At
Speaker 3: this point, I don't feel I need quite that level
Speaker 3: of like scheduling, mostly because the kids do not really
Speaker 3: need like one on one following at ages six, ten
Speaker 3: and twelve. So instead I just try to be really
Speaker 3: really upfront about what I do need, and I will
Speaker 3: announce I'm taking a nap and dare anyone to challenge me,
Speaker 3: and usually they don't, which is wonderful, and then I
Speaker 3: take my nap, or I will specifically say, like, hey,
Speaker 3: I'm going to take the girls to get our nails done,
Speaker 3: like can you do something? Well that's splitting the kids,
Speaker 3: But sometimes it'll be I'm taking all three kids to this,
Speaker 3: can you take them all three to a movie tomorrow?
Speaker 3: So that like I can get some time And so
Speaker 3: I'll make a suggestion and then that will kind of
Speaker 3: work out, and then maybe it also serves you know,
Speaker 3: with the ages of the kids, we can kind of
Speaker 3: fit the interest to the activities as.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I've definitely had. I mean, I remember when
Speaker 2: the kids were really little, like when we were living
Speaker 2: in New York, we had going for quite a while
Speaker 2: that Michael would take them out of the house on
Speaker 2: Saturday or Sunday for excursion of some variety, and the
Speaker 2: idea is that they would go out and do something
Speaker 2: and not be home right because then I could be
Speaker 2: in the.
Speaker 1: House by myself. That was good.
Speaker 2: That was a recognition that I was doing more of
Speaker 2: it during the week, and then he needed to do
Speaker 2: his shift on the weekend. And again, as the kids
Speaker 2: get older, you need less of it. But we're still
Speaker 2: tell you with Henry like, Okay, this is your time.
Speaker 2: You're gonna go play this video game with him. That's
Speaker 2: one thing they do together. And then I can go
Speaker 2: outside and sit on my hammock and relax and then
Speaker 2: make sure that it's explicit like who is in charge
Speaker 2: of him at any given time.
Speaker 1: So there is definitely some of it.
Speaker 2: We're gonna take one more quick ad break and then
Speaker 2: we'll be back with more on how we can make
Speaker 2: trading off work. Well, we are back talking how we
Speaker 2: can have rest and downtime, particularly if there are little
Speaker 2: kids involved. And we're saying that in families that have
Speaker 2: two parents, having a very explicit schedule of trading off
Speaker 2: can increase the chances that both parties get adequate downtime,
Speaker 2: both the person that might more automatically get it and
Speaker 2: the person who might be less likely to automatically get
Speaker 2: the rest that they feel that they need. Now, are
Speaker 2: we saying it has to be every single one hour
Speaker 2: of the one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week. Well, no,
Speaker 2: if you are not divorced and co parenting and so
Speaker 2: actually you're totally splitting the week, then obviously there's gonna
Speaker 2: be time when you're all together. But you might need
Speaker 2: to think about what would make it feel adequate for me.
Speaker 2: And maybe it's that one party gets Saturday morning and
Speaker 2: one gets Saturday after noon and you spend Saturday evening
Speaker 2: together as a family. Or maybe one party gets Friday night,
Speaker 2: the other gets a few hours on Sunday afternoon. Maybe
Speaker 2: one party wants the mornings to themselves during the week
Speaker 2: and that works and then the other party. You know,
Speaker 2: then that party who is off on the mornings will
Speaker 2: do the early evenings or whatever it happens to be.
Speaker 2: But thinking about what it might look like in the
Speaker 2: family schedule.
Speaker 3: I think this is just such an important conversation because
Speaker 3: one thing that sometimes strikes me as I'm listening to
Speaker 3: podcasts with male hosts and them talking about fitting in
Speaker 3: their workout and getting their downtime, is I love hearing
Speaker 3: about them taking their retreat, but like, please normalize it
Speaker 3: for the female have to And I think that's actually important.
Speaker 3: Even if one partner is more staying at home or
Speaker 3: has a less demanding job, that persons still going to
Speaker 3: need some like alone time and some rich charge times.
Speaker 3: So I think this just has to really really go
Speaker 3: both ways. And I don't necessarily mean a fifty to
Speaker 3: fifty split. I mean we can talk about that, but
Speaker 3: instead each person truly getting what they want a need
Speaker 3: out of life, out of the relationship, out of the partnership,
Speaker 3: et cetera. And I guess I feel like this isn't.
Speaker 1: Talked about enough.
Speaker 3: People love to talk about their own stuff, and then
Speaker 3: sometimes there's just this like nebulous partner lurking in the
Speaker 3: distance that seems to be soaking up all the excess.
Speaker 3: And I guess this conversation will tell you. I guess
Speaker 3: we are that partner and we want our own time too.
Speaker 2: Well, and we're saying it could be a couple hours
Speaker 2: built into sort of the weekly schedule. It can also
Speaker 2: be that when you are on vacation with a family,
Speaker 2: maybe you trade off days, like one of you covers
Speaker 2: one day and then the other partner covers the other day,
Speaker 2: so we each get some downtime on vacation. I well
Speaker 2: remember Michael and I did this when we were with
Speaker 2: the family in San Diego in twenty sixteens. We had
Speaker 2: four very young kids at that point, and he took
Speaker 2: them all, which, by the way, our nanny at the
Speaker 2: time came too, So it's a we were trading off
Speaker 2: with help, but it was still one partner was going
Speaker 2: with it. They went to Disneyland for the day, so
Speaker 2: I had a whole day all to myself. It was awesome,
Speaker 2: and I covered another day for sure. Or you could
Speaker 2: also do long weekends like I think. I think each
Speaker 2: partner should ideally get at least one long weekend away
Speaker 2: in the course of the year to do what you want.
Speaker 2: You don't have to spend all your PTO together. It's
Speaker 2: really hard also for many families to get an overnight
Speaker 2: babysitter but it is not at all hard for one
Speaker 2: parent to be the overnight coverage, so you can take
Speaker 2: a couple days away pretty easily if the partner is covering,
Speaker 2: versus if both of you are trying to go. It's
Speaker 2: this huge trying to fit together all sorts of different
Speaker 2: kinds of childcare to make it work.
Speaker 3: I struggle with this one, mostly because I seem to
Speaker 3: be the only one that really wants these weekends. But
Speaker 3: I guess it is what it is, and I'll continue
Speaker 3: to encourage Josh to I don't know, not that he
Speaker 3: specifically has to go away, but if there's some event
Speaker 3: or thing that excites him to make sure that he
Speaker 3: carves out time to do that. It's a concert or
Speaker 3: a sports event or whatever it is. So addressing a
Speaker 3: few objections with the trade off philosophy here. Obviously, if
Speaker 3: people don't have a partner co parent, this is much harder,
Speaker 3: but you can perhaps co op with another mom who
Speaker 3: is in a similar situation. So if you have a
Speaker 3: good friend who is also a single parent, a neighbor
Speaker 3: who is also a single parent, or you know a
Speaker 3: relative in a similar situation, the two of you can say, okay, well,
Speaker 3: I host the play date on Saturday. She hosts the
Speaker 3: play date on Sunday. That gives each of us some
Speaker 3: time off to do whatever we need to for ourselves
Speaker 3: and hopefully relax.
Speaker 1: There are some people who have.
Speaker 2: Agreements with families, So perhaps a single mom's extended family
Speaker 2: takes the kid one weekend a month. That might be
Speaker 2: a really great situation that an extended family might be
Speaker 2: willing to offer as something to help make life feel
Speaker 2: more sustainable for her. You can budget for your rest.
Speaker 2: Think about if you were co parenting with somebody, your
Speaker 2: kids were going off to that person, like, what would
Speaker 2: it look like and sort of there was an old
Speaker 2: custody arrangement. I guess where the kids would go to
Speaker 2: dad for Wednesday evening and every other Saturday or something
Speaker 2: like that. So maybe that's what you budget for, right
Speaker 2: one every weekday, one Wednesday evening and a couple of
Speaker 2: hours on Saturday.
Speaker 3: You're talking about paid care, and that ye care, right
Speaker 3: to hire a sitter, that makes.
Speaker 2: Hire a sitter for that and or even if you
Speaker 2: have regular work childcare being able to stretch it a
Speaker 2: tiny bit. So maybe it's something like your daycare is
Speaker 2: from eight to six, but you are often done with
Speaker 2: work at five. You normally just get your kid then,
Speaker 2: and that is awesome, But maybe two days a week
Speaker 2: you let it go a little closer to six and
Speaker 2: give yourself that fifty minutes to just chill and try
Speaker 2: to rejuvenate yourself before you have the evening on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I absolutely acknowledge that all of this
Speaker 3: does become more complicated when you are single, and I
Speaker 3: can hear some arguments from single people close to me,
Speaker 3: but I think that still there are probably something is
Speaker 3: better than nothing in many cases, and even small doses
Speaker 3: of extra downtime can feel like a lot when it's
Speaker 3: going from zero to something.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, of course, the related objection is I have a partner,
Speaker 2: but he's never reliably around. I would push back on
Speaker 2: this for the vast.
Speaker 1: Majority of jobs.
Speaker 2: Now, obviously, if your husband is deployed somewhere for nine months,
Speaker 2: that is a different scenario, and then you can go
Speaker 2: back to the ways you might build and rest in
Speaker 2: downtime if you don't have a partner around. But if
Speaker 2: we're talking to somebody with a fairly normal job, they
Speaker 2: just tend to work longer hours, there's probably at least
Speaker 2: some point that they could take. You know, maybe it's
Speaker 2: that they're almost never working on Saturday mornings, well maybe
Speaker 2: that could be your time, or maybe it's that you
Speaker 2: also then hopefully your partner's being compensated for all this availability,
Speaker 2: and you can hire a sitter, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3: Yes. And my favorite reminder is like, if that is
Speaker 3: the case, the sitter is not covering you, they're really
Speaker 3: covering your partner. If you're doing ninety percent of stuff
Speaker 3: and you want to do eighty percent and you want
Speaker 3: that ten percent help and your partner really can't do it,
Speaker 3: then again you should feel very much good about getting
Speaker 3: that help and not even feel like it's kind of
Speaker 3: subbing your labor. It's really subbing the other person. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: A second objection is that this all seems so transactional
Speaker 2: and petty, Like, if we're in a loving family, why
Speaker 2: do we need to explicitly say that Dad covers Thursday evening,
Speaker 2: Mom covers Wednesday evening, and we split Saturday.
Speaker 1: So, Sarah, what would you say to that?
Speaker 3: And this is not from, by the way, not from
Speaker 3: personal experience myself, but from more hearing other people, But
Speaker 3: I feel like from what people have told me, the
Speaker 3: ones who object to with the most are the ones
Speaker 3: who are kind of slept with this striking realization that
Speaker 3: they're going to have to do a lot more than
Speaker 3: they are current. So it may not seem petty if
Speaker 3: it's not a big change, but if all of a
Speaker 3: sudden they're like, wait, I have to do bedtime twice
Speaker 3: a week.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so petty. Like, hm, I don't know, maybe
Speaker 2: it's not so petty. Maybe it's time to step up
Speaker 2: to the game. Yeah. And the earlier you start, the
Speaker 2: more natural it will seem for everyone, because everyone becomes
Speaker 2: competent with taking care of the kids on their own.
Speaker 2: I know we've both laughed when we've heard some mostly
Speaker 2: fathers make the joke when they have the third kid
Speaker 2: of like, oh, we're moving from man to man to
Speaker 2: zone defense. It's like, well, that means you have never
Speaker 2: taken the two kids on your own. It's like, that
Speaker 2: is a pretty embarrassing revelation if you're already by your
Speaker 2: third child. So let's make sure that everyone can do
Speaker 2: all the parenting on their own should they need to.
Speaker 2: And you know, in some of my studies, you know,
Speaker 2: I've suggested people go take one night for them to
Speaker 2: do a hobby and people like women. It's always women
Speaker 2: have said, well my partner can't handle multiple kid bedtimes.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, because that's he's never had to. But
Speaker 2: if he is not completely incompetent, my guess is he
Speaker 2: can do it.
Speaker 1: If he needs to, he can learn.
Speaker 2: And so the earlier you start with that, the more
Speaker 2: comfortable and confident everyone will feel in their parenting.
Speaker 3: I will say, as a related note, I personally find
Speaker 3: it sometimes easier to parent, especially in the bedtime hour
Speaker 3: when I am by myself with all three kids. Because
Speaker 3: we've talked about this before. It's like it's becomes like
Speaker 3: a dictator ship or something like I'm the only one
Speaker 3: we'll do there's no one to diffuse, like well mom
Speaker 3: said this, but Dad usually lets me do that, and
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. It's like, nope, sorry, I'm the only
Speaker 3: one here. To the point where my kids will be
Speaker 3: like is daddy home and I'm like nope. That means
Speaker 3: you have to listen to me, and it actually kind
Speaker 3: of works.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well I found this.
Speaker 2: I mean, because we've split the family for I mean,
Speaker 2: with five kids, use less of this. You know, one
Speaker 2: person taking all five often, but you know we have,
Speaker 2: but like if we have split family trips that I'm
Speaker 2: taking some of the kids and Michael's taking some of
Speaker 2: the others, you are fully in charge, right, There's no
Speaker 2: question of who's in charge. Whereas if the both of
Speaker 2: us are together, we're negotiating over different things, what we're
Speaker 2: doing at different points. We may have different interests and
Speaker 2: we're both sort of figuring out what we're going to
Speaker 2: go with. Whereas, yes, when you are the only adult
Speaker 2: that you can run it as your benevolent dictatorship, and
Speaker 2: sometimes that is easier even if you don't have the
Speaker 2: support of the other person. The last objection, the problem
Speaker 2: with all this trading off is we like family time altogether.
Speaker 1: Say, well, great, I do too.
Speaker 2: Covering for each other for a few hours per week
Speaker 2: so everyone can get adequate rest does not negate that
Speaker 2: at all. There are one hundred and sixty eight hours
Speaker 2: in a week, fifty two weeks in a year, right, Sarah,
Speaker 2: you can still.
Speaker 3: Have a lot of time together. Yes, so I think
Speaker 3: this is really important. It doesn't have to be an
Speaker 3: all or nothing thing. It does not have to be
Speaker 3: an even split. We're not dividing one hundred and six
Speaker 3: into two and you'll never see each other again. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, I think many of us find
Speaker 3: that having some solo, non kid experiences is very life
Speaker 3: and enriching, and there should be ways that we can
Speaker 3: all have a little of that in our lives.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well.
Speaker 2: Today's question is somewhat about trading off, but figuring out
Speaker 2: what somebody wants to be when they grow up when
Speaker 2: they have had their kids quite young. So i'll paraphrase
Speaker 2: this question, then Sarah can give her answers that she's
Speaker 2: sent to this person. This listener had her fourth and
Speaker 2: she says final baby about six months ago, so she
Speaker 2: has four kids who are ages six to baby.
Speaker 1: She is only twenty nine years old.
Speaker 2: She has taken some time off work for various reasons
Speaker 2: while her kids were little. During this time, her husband's
Speaker 2: income has gone up considerably. However, now that she has
Speaker 2: done with having her babies, she is itching to get
Speaker 2: back into the workforce to some degree. However, she's wondering
Speaker 2: if maybe it seems like the only reason she needs
Speaker 2: she would be working is to keep herself from being bored,
Speaker 2: So she's a little wondering if that's okay. She's also
Speaker 2: feeling like all the universe is open to her given
Speaker 2: that she is so young. I mean, she could go
Speaker 2: back to school, she could try a completely different career,
Speaker 2: she could get re licensed in her particular area. So
Speaker 2: she's just unclear how to proceed from there and wondering
Speaker 2: if she should be trying to get back in the
Speaker 2: workforce and also what she should be doing. So, Sarah,
Speaker 2: you had a few thoughts for her. Yeah, this was
Speaker 2: such an interesting question. I want to read one quote
Speaker 2: from this. Very lad did a wonderful paraphrase, but there
Speaker 2: was a good quoting here.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna read it. And she said she's itching
Speaker 3: to get into more development and MEETI work to dig
Speaker 3: into with newfound intellectual and emotional bandwidth and the buying
Speaker 3: power to me maybe start making space on the calendar.
Speaker 3: She feels like she has all the building blocks. If
Speaker 3: she could just make sure she was going in the
Speaker 3: right direction, she could make it happen. But for a
Speaker 3: career that is quote potentially inconvenient and financially unimportant, I'm
Speaker 3: feeling pressure to make sure it is somehow the most
Speaker 3: fulfilling possible option. Oh my gosh, so much pressure this
Speaker 3: person is putting on herself. So, and I think this
Speaker 3: is such a great question, and she is a very
Speaker 3: thoughtful person for kind of like laying it all out there.
Speaker 3: So I hope that maybe even just sending the question
Speaker 3: has been helpful. My first few thoughts have been are
Speaker 3: kind of like the like depressing side of this, which
Speaker 3: is like you just never know. I mean, maybe you're okay,
Speaker 3: Like maybe your spouse is like a hedge fund billionaire,
Speaker 3: and this is like a moot point, but like if
Speaker 3: it's just like someone who makes a good high earning,
Speaker 3: that could change. Maybe that person won't have a long
Speaker 3: life and long working life like you expect them to.
Speaker 3: Maybe the relationship won't last like you expected to, Like
Speaker 3: you just kind of never know. So assuming that whatever
Speaker 3: you do is always going to be financially unimportant, I
Speaker 3: think is a little bit dangerous in most cases. Plus,
Speaker 3: there's always the chance that even if they do have
Speaker 3: this wonderful, high powered career, what if at some point
Speaker 3: they decide like they're burned out and they want to
Speaker 3: kind of do something a little more low key, And
Speaker 3: so maybe you would find yourself feeling a little bit
Speaker 3: more important. Another thing on that note, and again, if
Speaker 3: he's a hedge fund billionaire this maybe again, but.
Speaker 2: At which point you can do whatever you want to, right,
Speaker 2: Like I mean, you want to start a business that's
Speaker 2: losing fifty thousand dollars a month, go for it. Yes,
Speaker 2: But I get I mean, you know, honestly like that,
Speaker 2: because right any just do whatever you want just for
Speaker 2: absolute fun.
Speaker 3: But no, I was going to argue the financial piece again,
Speaker 3: which is that I feel like going in when my
Speaker 3: kids were little, I thought X amount of money would
Speaker 3: be like a great amount of money, and that more
Speaker 3: than we could know what to do with. And as
Speaker 3: they've gotten older, I've only like found more and more
Speaker 3: expensive things I want to give to them, experiences whatever,
Speaker 3: I mean, are they needed?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: But like, do I find value in some of them? Yes?
Speaker 3: And am I glad that I have a job that
Speaker 3: helps making some of them more feasible? But that might
Speaker 3: not be if they're so lopsided, that might not be true.
Speaker 3: But I'm just just throwing that out there that you
Speaker 3: might not know what the magic total will be for
Speaker 3: you when the kids are older. Maybe it's higher than
Speaker 3: you think. Now, I guess that's what I was getting at.
Speaker 3: And then I just thought, like I hear a lot
Speaker 3: of like perfection, like I have to find my perfect thing,
Speaker 3: or like pie in the sky like idea. And I think, remember,
Speaker 3: you can do career crafting, and the only way you're
Speaker 3: going to figure out if certain pass work is to
Speaker 3: probably try them. So I would try to let go
Speaker 3: of the idea of finding the exact passion direction position
Speaker 3: because that may make you kind of stuck in paralysis
Speaker 3: for years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think she can definitely give herself six
Speaker 2: to twelve months to think about it again because she's
Speaker 2: so young. She's like, well, I can start anything at
Speaker 2: twenty nine, where you can start anything at thirty.
Speaker 1: Two, So it's it's totally fine.
Speaker 2: I mean, even if you do to do a career
Speaker 2: with a long training field, like you want to go
Speaker 2: to law school, you want to go to medical school,
Speaker 2: like you could do that at thirty just like you
Speaker 2: could do it at twenty nine. So think about what
Speaker 2: this is. Spend six to twelve months really actually practically
Speaker 2: trying things out. You know, what do I want to
Speaker 2: be when I grow up? Try little projects in different
Speaker 2: areas that you find interesting, Make long lists of anything
Speaker 2: you think are exciting to do, ways you like spending
Speaker 2: your time, and then you can start weaving these together
Speaker 2: and figuring out what your ideal life will look like,
Speaker 2: doing a lot of networking because people will have ideas
Speaker 2: of what you could try doing, and let go of
Speaker 2: this idea that you're going to find anything perfectly immediately.
Speaker 2: But as you try things out, then you can try
Speaker 2: the next thing out. And again, if you don't have
Speaker 2: to work, which is what we're hearing with this, then
Speaker 2: you don't have to decide this quickly. You can try
Speaker 2: something and then try something else. But over the course
Speaker 2: of a couple years, I think you will figure out
Speaker 2: a job that you really really enjoy and that uses
Speaker 2: your brain and that makes you feel like you're contributing
Speaker 2: in multiple different spheres with all your kids and in
Speaker 2: the larger world as well. Something meaty, as you put it.
Speaker 2: I love that something meaty. I know she's bored.
Speaker 3: She was.
Speaker 1: In her letter.
Speaker 2: She mentioned she'd done all their house projects, she was
Speaker 2: reading one hundred books a year. It was time for
Speaker 2: her to get back to work. So I think she's
Speaker 2: going to find something that will use all that extra
Speaker 2: intellectual capacity that she's dying to put to some different purpose.
Speaker 2: And we can't wait to hear what that is all right, Sarah,
Speaker 2: what is your love of the week.
Speaker 3: Well, the opening ceremonies of the Olympics are this week,
Speaker 3: so I am super excited to tune in. Feel like
Speaker 3: I have reached the promised land of ages of kids
Speaker 3: that will actually sit through watching some of these events
Speaker 3: with me, and that's it's been a while. There's always
Speaker 3: been like a two year old running around the last
Speaker 3: few Olympics. So super super excited for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Kids who can sit still and watch that
Speaker 2: is always a love of the week. Well, I'd say
Speaker 2: the Olympics and Shark Week. We've been watching some of
Speaker 2: the Shark Week programming and it's always a little bit
Speaker 2: over the top and funny, but you know, it's a
Speaker 2: summer tradition at this point. It's a great way to
Speaker 2: spend a little bit of time in July, and most
Speaker 2: years there aren't in Olympics in July. I'm sure we'll
Speaker 2: watch less Shark programming that we've taped once the Olympics start,
Speaker 2: but for non Olympics July that can be great.
Speaker 1: Well, this has been.
Speaker 2: Best of both worlds. We've been talking about rest, rethinking
Speaker 2: what rest looks like and what it means and then
Speaker 2: discussing a way the trade Off Manifesto that people who
Speaker 2: feel they are not getting adequate rest can make sure
Speaker 2: that they do get more rest, even if there are
Speaker 2: young kids involved and who need constant supervision. Well, we
Speaker 2: will be back next week with more on making work
Speaker 2: and life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 3: and you.
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 2: work together.