WEBVTT - E. Jean Carroll & Bridget Read 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.120 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:10.600 today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:12.760 mean we don't have a great show for you. Today. 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.360 Journalist Ejeene Carroll stops by to talk about her new 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.560 book Not My Type. But first we have New York 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:25.200 Magazine's Bridget read on her new book, Little Boss Is 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.120 Everywhere How the pyramid scheme shaped America. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.120 Welcome to Fast Politics, Bridget. 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.839 Thanks so much for having me explain to us what 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:35.800 you write on and where you got to. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:37.640 With this book and how you got here. 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.400 I am a features writer at New York Magazine right now. 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:46.120 I primarily write about housing for Curbs, which is part 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.760 of New York mag I started this book when I 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.040 was a writer at The Cut, which is New York 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.280 magas women's vertical. That's how I sort of was introduced 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.400 to this concept of multile marketing, which is very similar, 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.040 if not the same, as the pyramid scheme. And I 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.160 wrote a really short article in twenty twenty one about 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.760 MLMs and just kind of being obsessed from there, and 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:07.520 that's where this book was born. 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:13.880 MLMs, I feel like they're tied to both women's entrepreneurship 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:20.520 in a strange and destructive way and also to maga politics. 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:21.240 Yes. 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.600 Yeah, so they're really interesting because they are the sleazy 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.319 foundation to many of the things we're looking at right 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.880 now and right here. So i'd love you to talk 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.600 first because you come from the cut about the women's 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.679 ish world of MLOUS, and then I'm going to get 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.880 you into maga worlds. But I could see how there's 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.200 a sort of natural progression here, so talk us through it. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.680 Yeah. So MLM was invented by men in the post 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.760 war era scammy salesman who decided that they were going 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.600 to create this basically what functions as a Ponzi scheme, 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.919 but within the sort of shell of door to door selling, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.400 which is like, you know, an age old American pastime. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.320 Give us an example of a company that does that. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.600 Oh sure, so the oldest one is Amway. The guys 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.679 that invented MLM did it with a company and a 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:20.160 vitamin company called Neutralite. Richard DeVos and Jamian andl who 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.399 founded Amway. They started as Neutralite salesmen and then they 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.040 did what always happens in MLM, which is they picked 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.679 up all their distributors and started their own company, which 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.800 is Amway. In the late fifties. Amway is the biggest 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:36.440 and most influential MLM in the world. There's also herbal Life, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.960 There's Mary Kay, There's Shackley Tupperware. I could go on 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:44.000 and on. There are hundreds thousands of MLMs now in 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.480 the US alone. So even though it was invented by 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:51.840 men very quickly five sixties, women who went to work 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.080 in droves during World War Two, and then even though 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.079 those levels fell back down after the war, steadily during 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.560 the fifties and sixties, more women started going to work, 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.680 and of course that rose from there. But what happened 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.680 was women statistically went predominantly to industries where the work 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.520 wasn't great right, work was insecure. They were secretaries, they 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:18.120 were doing retails, the service sector where you're not big benefits, 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.600 you're not doing typical wage work, and you are also 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.280 in many respects still doing your childcare. So this need 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.040 for flexible work and women being the primary recipient of 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.519 a pitch for flexible work, which is what a huge 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.600 part of MLM is. It's the idea that you're an 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.119 independent contractor, so already by the sixties, women became predominantly 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.120 the people who work in multiple marketing, and of course 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.480 the industry all then began touting itself as like an 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:48.640 opportunity for women, but always the conservative The industry is 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.040 really conservative politically and in terms of its gender ideology. 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.480 So from the get go, MLM is a type of 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:59.640 flexible work where women can walk a line right where 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.119 they're contributing to the household, but not in a way 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.040 that threatens their roles as wives and mothers. Mary Kay 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.800 is the most notable founder of an MLM, and she 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.120 was a huge part in kind of selling that story, 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.560 and there are many copies of it since, and we 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.480 could trace a line all the way to current MLMs 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.600 where women are girl bosses. They're wearing the oversized blazer 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.840 and doing the TikTok videos, but they're also you know, 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.359 it's all about, Oh, I retired my husband who's a 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.159 Christian firefighter, and I serve him still. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:31.400 So you can do both. 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.040 It's really a way to like sublimate women's ambition, sublimate 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.040 their economic fears, but do it in a way that 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.719 does it threaten the overall you know, nuclear family structure. 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:47.360 Yes, So now get us talking about how these multi 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.240 level marketing schemes have popped up in MAGA world. 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:56.840 The roots of MLM in the Republican Party are beyond deep. 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.000 Even before Rich DeVos and Javannandel. Rich Davas of course, 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.320 being Betsy Davas's father in law, the founders of multi 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.080 level marketing were connected to the Republican Party in California. 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:10.279 They supported Nixon. 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.799 A lot of Republican money comes from multi level marketing. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.320 Yes, That's really what I tried to emphasize in this 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:22.400 book is the MLM money should be as scrutinized as 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.400 the empires of the Kochs the Mercers. Right, the money 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.880 that's actually been taken from these participants has powered the 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.760 Republican Party for decades. I mean, Devas and Van Andel 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.840 are the single biggest Republican donors. When Ronald Reagan is 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.719 running for president, Ronald Reagan makes Devas a member of 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.080 his kitchen cabinet. Javan Andl is the head of the 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.200 Chamber of Commerce. They both give heavily to Heritage, And 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.640 now right now the chairman of the board at Heritage 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.440 is Barb Van Andl. Gabby javan Andl's daughter I mean, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.039 it goes on and on. They give heavily to the 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.000 Council for National Policy Focus on the Family. So these 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.159 are some dark money Christian groups. Betsy Debas, you know, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.039 very notably resigned in the wake of January sixth and 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.960 made a big deal about it, but they continue to 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.280 give to all the packs and organizations that helped re 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.880 elect Trump, including the very scary Sheriff Fellowship, which is 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.600 you know, at Claremont Institute, group that wants to essentially 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.039 radicalize share its to use them to carry out Trump's 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.280 deportation dreams, but also just like to stop enforcing law 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.680 and order where Trump doesn't lot it to be enforced. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:31.720 They're huge on school vouchers. So there are major engines 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.120 of both the economic forces of mega but also those 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:40.320 culture war goals. They've been shaping it long before we 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.200 even knew sort of Betsy Devas as a figure. You know, 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.320 it's bigger than that. There are other figures in this 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.919 industry that have been part of our political world, but 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.839 the Amway founders are certainly the most influential. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:57.520 Right, let's talk for a minute about what we have 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.679 in the MAGA multi level marketing. What are they quote 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:07.560 unquote selling like Mary Kay is makeup, Amway is agriculture. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.840 Amway is everything. In Amway, you're encouraged to replace your 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:15.000 entire household products with Amway products. So they sell toothpaste, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.680 they sell an energy drink, Cold Access, they have their 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.520 own makeup brand called Artistry, And like, the reason you've 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.240 never heard of it is because MLMs are overwhelmingly closed 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.320 systems where the participants are buying up this stuff, because 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.160 that's how you really make the most money is just 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.520 by buying and buying and getting people under you to 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:34.520 be buying. And there are lots of people in my 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.800 book who talk about how they're encouraged by this stuff. 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.239 You're going to sell it. You have to like use, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.360 you know, use the products that you want to sell. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.520 They're encouraged to sign up for subscriptions, whether they're spending 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.960 like four hundred dollars a month on an automated Amway purchase. 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.680 The intersection of MAGA, especially the MAHA part of MAGA, 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.520 the wellness part and MLM is really strong because many 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.360 many of the products it's totally nonsensical MLM it makes sense, 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.120 like why would you go buy a toothpaste from Amway? 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.440 When you can go get it at Dwayne Reid for 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.080 you know, half the price. It never has made any 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.600 sense even when it was invented, So they really rely 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.160 on a pitch that taps into your fears, It taps 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.440 into your worries about your health, and it taps into these. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.000 MAHA makes a lot of sense for that, Yeah, exactly, like. 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.720 You're you're sick in ways you don't even know, and 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.720 here's the way we can fix your gut biome or 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:32.240 all these you know, like pseudo science, untested science. MLM 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.760 is a perfect vessel for that because it relies on 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.559 this like over the top pitch that we're going to 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.400 change your life, which the supplement industry also does, and 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.760 so you know, the kind of Joe Rogan style supplement 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.120 world also has a lot of overlap with MLMs, So 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.280 they're the men's version as well, where men are you know, 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.720 getting in into that. And then the crypto side of MAGA, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.360 so Trump's cryptoquin World, Liberty Financial, some of the guys 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.720 involved in running that have dipped their toe in the world, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.440 but also just Trump in general, I mean, and Trump 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.560 of himself of course, has been the face of two MLMs, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.160 one called Ideal Health and then ACN, which was the 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.280 lawsuit against Trump that was dropped. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.200 Wait what ideal Health. 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.079 In the early two thousands or mid two thousands, actually, 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.200 Trump was tapped to be the face of an MLM 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.400 called Ideal Health, and they sold supplements and they called 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.319 it the Trump Network. It was literally described as like 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.960 an emergency way that for people who were suffering in 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.280 the financial crisis and the Great Recession to like become millionaires. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.040 He reaped a lot of benefit from it, and of 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.360 course it collapsed and lots of people said they lost money. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.920 But Trump in general, the way he built his career 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.720 is very MLM esque in that MLM relies on promotion. 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.040 It's all about promoting the lifestyle that you have and 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.520 making it sound like that's as if you're it's because 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.200 Amway or whatever MLM you're doing is such a like 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.160 incredibly special secret recipe for success. It can't be beat. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.800 It's almost you know, as it's a it's a revolutionary invention. 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.200 But what you're really doing is just all you're making 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.400 all your money from people other people buying in which, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.480 of course is what Trump has done his whole career. Right, 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.960 He's never really been a successful businessman. He's a you know, 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.559 a litany of real estate failures. He's propped up by 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.160 his father, who himself is propped up by tax evasion. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.040 But he sells this idea that he's an incredible businessman. 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.720 And so millions of Americans for decades have bought into 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.080 the Trump thing, whether it's you know, buying his his 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.679 success systems or going to his failed university. They are 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.360 failing and they are losing their investments. But Trump is winning, 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.640 and that's that's really the multiple marketing meachanism at its core. 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:43.000 So it's incredibly trumpy. MLM is Trumpian, and Trump is 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:44.199 very MLMI. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:45.439 With the MAHA stuff. 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:51.880 Does RFK Junior benefit from my multi level marketing besides 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.960 just being someone who is involved in it. 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.040 RFK Junior, as far as ener, doesn't benefit directly from 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.520 an MLM, but many of his prominence followers, especially online 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.680 and especially these women who are in the anti vax world, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:09.240 also dabble in multi level marketing. They sell these products 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.720 that claim to you know, these are these are people 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.640 who got online during the pandemic and just like Trump, 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.080 you know, said you can take these supplements, you can 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.839 do these you know, additives to your water and they 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.840 will keep you from getting sick. So so there are 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.839 definitely promoters within MLM who are big RFK supporters. 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.199 And you know, yeah, who are those people. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.720 They're not public figures, they're not people in that U no, no, no, no, okay. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.000 But I would say the number one MLM promoter within 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:43.200 MAHA is doctor Oz. Doctor Oz has shilled for several 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.600 m lms. He appears as as a speaker. You know, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.160 kaid probably hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.360 over the years, and doctor Oz has has certainly went 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.400 his name to many MLMs in the past. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:59.160 So explain to us sort of what when you're looking 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:00.960 at these mL they. 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.480 Just the goal is just to keep going. What's the goal? Yes, 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.720 just to keep going and to stay out of jail. 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.480 Yeah, that hasn't been that hard for them because really 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.080 enforcement of any kind of I mean, they exist in 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.720 a very deeply unregulated space. Mway essentially bought its political 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.440 cover in the late seventies and those rules that have 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.040 never really been tested are what allow companies to keep 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.320 the business model. So as long as they sort of 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.120 purport to be using these rules in place that keep 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.960 them from being a pyramid scheme. There's virtually no enforcement 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.440 of this that unless the FTC what they're doing is 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:39.840 really really scammy. And the apt SEE has gone after 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.240 certainly less than one hundred posibly even less than fifty 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.319 MLMs since the seventies in terms of actually suing them 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.040 and shutting them down. Yeah, I mean not one pyramid scheme. 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.040 Multiple marketing company was shut down during Reagan and butsch 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:54.120 one during Bush two they started up a little bit, 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.120 and then in the Clinton administration. But even during the 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.280 herbal Life lawsuit when the FTC suit urbal Life, and 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.679 that was that whole Bill Ackman saga where Bill Ackman 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:05.480 came out and wanted to short urban life. This is 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.439 in twenty eleven, twenty twelve. When the FTC finally sued 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:14.000 Herbalife in twenty sixteen, they immediately crafted a settlement with 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.000 the company Erbalife had hired the Desta Group. This is 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:20.839 a bipartisan situation where people you know, on both sides 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.439 of the political spectrum have involved themselves with MLM Rbalife 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.760 also or am why I believe us boys Schiller at 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.720 one point. So you know, these are big corporate companies. 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.080 Melan Albright was a spokesperson for Erbal Life for many years. 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.679 Yeah, yes, that's so bad, bad and a good example 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.640 of you can be on the wrong side of history 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.240 and it doesn't matter what party you're in. Right, there's 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.160 no world in which any of this is opay. 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:50.000 And MLMs get by because they're incredibly complicated in terms 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:51.599 of the way they figured out how to talk with 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.720 the business model. Like the way I explained the business 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.480 model to you is not how they explain it, right. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.560 They make it sound the lot like it's door to 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.760 door selling, which to a lot of people is very 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.120 like old timey and American, and so you're like, how 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.679 could there be anything wrong with this? And because they 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:09.440 are old, they're from the early fifties, we are sort 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.280 of trapped in the legal precedent that was set during 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.720 the fifties and sixties and seventies, And so there's a 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.120 lot keeping MLMs from being understood in the way that 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.160 I think they should be understood, Like I think the 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.240 Amway family should be treated like the Sacklers in terms 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.040 of the harm that they've done on the world. Because 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.360 the majority of MLM participants are worldwide. Most most MLM 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.760 participants are not in the US anymore. So there's millions 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.760 of people here, but there's many more millions around the world. 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.120 And you can imagine how much if you're in a 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.160 country with way, way less of GDP than the United States, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.800 the idea that you can buy in for a small 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:46.880 amount of money and become a millionaire is is going 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.000 to like sweep you up in India or in China 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.760 or wherever you are. So yeah, I mean that there's 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.040 a lot there's a lot of history that I tried 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:59.400 to pull apart in my book to make people understand, like, yes, 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.760 the Betsy Devas, we can critique a lot of her 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.040 views right now, but nobody really talks about like where 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:09.040 does her money come from? Betsy Devas's brother is Eric Prince. 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:13.920 So these two kind of Michigan dynasties that are hugely 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.400 influential in our modern far right party. 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.480 And profoundly sketchy. 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.960 Yeah, and both really like what MLM does is it's 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.600 an engine of propaganda that I really find, ultimately at 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.680 the end of the day, anti democratic. It's all about 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.400 enrolling people in an exploitative and harmful system and using 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.960 basically cult tactics to keep their noses to the grindstone, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.160 keep telling them it's going to get better. Keep going, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.240 keep going. You know you're doing it. You want to 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.800 do it by yourself. You can do it as an individual. 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.680 You don't need government benefits. The government makes you a slave. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.200 And that capitalism works best with no regulation and no 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.640 rules like that's what MLM you propagates on the on 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:01.000 a grassroots level. And truly the aim of how MLM 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.720 has operated in tandem with ideology is to get to 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.640 a place where there really is no one keeping capital, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.400 the forces of capital corporations accountable, that they can truly 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.840 do whatever they want. That is what MLM would love, 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.520 because of course there's a lot of evidence that MLM's 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.920 fraud and so they don't want the FTC, they don't 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.040 want consumer protection, they don't want state ags to be empowered. 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.720 You know, they would love to simply operate in a 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.480 wild West, which, of course is like you can see 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.960 it in Doge right now, right, you know, which of 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.200 course is getting so much of it's blueprint from Heritage. Heritage, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.920 which is very much a project of multiple marketing. So 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.080 not to sound like I have a tinfoil hat on, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.440 but it feels like a conspiracy, because it really is. 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.080 If you look at the evidence. 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.920 You don't sound tinfoil Hattie at all. Thank you, bridget Read, 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:52.200 Thank you so much. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.120 E Gene Carrol is a journalist and the author of 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.680 the new book Not My Type. Welcome back to Fast Politics, 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:07.160 Eagan Carroll, Molly my Darling, Hellottle friend. So let us 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.840 talk about this book. I have it right here, Not 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.040 My Type. It was a total secret, this book. No 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.040 one knew about it. You kept it secret secret. Talk 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.960 to us about how this happened and where you wrote 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:22.320 this book. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.399 Also, I love Donald Trump's blurb. 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.040 Yeah, we got Donald Trump to blurb the book. 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.000 I don't know who she is. So let's talk about 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:30.560 this book. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.600 I love talking about the book. Molly. I'm eighty one 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.080 and I'm been a magazine writer for the last fifty years. 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:41.480 I was put into the middle of a highly comic situation, 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:47.560 surrounded with characters that not even Molly John Fast could create, 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:53.000 each one more surreal and more hilarious and more frightening 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.120 and more stupendous than the last. And as an old 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:01.000 time journalist, I could not help myself. I had to 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.960 get it down now. It was saint Martin's who decided 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.000 we will keep the book secret. And Molly, when you 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.200 and I know that when we have a secret, we 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.879 become very powerful. So we kept every sentenced secret. And 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.600 I just I had that golden nugget inside of me, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.560 that secrecy. I knew stuff that he didn't know. I 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.159 was going to explode what really went on behind the 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.320 scenes and this, you know, the high comedy. He has 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.440 never been treated this way, and we kept it under wraps. 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.720 And that's what we did. And Molly, we pulled it off. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.160 I mean we pulled it off. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.320 I know because I was there on Morning Joe the 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.600 day you revealed that you had done it. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.080 Did you anchor again? Today? 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.880 I did the view today, I'm doing Morning Joe tomorrow. 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:48.480 How was the view good? 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.160 Those ladies are really cool? 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.320 Now? How did I know you did TV today? Because 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.680 you have on full makeup, full makeup. The lips give 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.480 you away. I should have guessed the view, should have 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:02.040 guessed the view. That's perfect for you. Well, the morning 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.399 I did Morning Joe and you were the anchor, that 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.920 was the morning you hit the best seller list. Yes, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.440 so I didn't even want to talk about my book. 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.440 I was more excited that your book hit the best 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.880 seller list. Yes, poor Molly, you look like you'd been 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.480 hit by an arrow because your whole interview went south 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.080 because I opened it by saying, you know, let's not 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.880 talk about this my life. Congratulations for the best seller. 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.720 So that's not my type. Just hit the best seller list, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.439 I know, number two. This is what happens when you 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:32.800 keep something secret. 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:33.720 That's right. 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.359 It was during the trial that you decided you were 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:39.720 going to write this down, right, Well, Molly. 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:41.760 I was writing down the whole time. When I returned 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.160 my hotel room during this day, I would open up, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.320 I'd take my phone and I'd open it and I'm 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.240 just talking to it, every single detail. Everything we were eating, 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.840 what Joe Takapina was, where hall Aleena Hobbs hair was 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:56.600 that day? Was it long? Was it short? Was she 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.840 wearing the huge diamond ring? Come on this detail? I 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.120 could get down. And then I had the court transcripts. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.320 And if you talk about high comedy, I wish you 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.280 could read the court transcripts from the two trump time. 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.000 John Gresham could not have written drama that was like 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.200 what was going on in this corp. So I had 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.879 all the truth. Nothing could have stopped me nothing. You 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.720 could have come to my house with all your children. 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.240 You could have dragged your mother out of a nice 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.800 place for shoes, put her in the car, and all 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.719 of you could have come and yelled at me, and 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.760 I would have written this book. I had to get 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:38.800 it out. People have to know that he is just 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:46.000 an old man in saffron colored makeup with his hair 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:51.439 done up like Barbara Stanwy in Ballfire. That's who he is. 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.439 That's it. And page after page and how he reacted 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.879 and what he did in court and what he didn't do. 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.919 It was. I was fascinated by it. I couldn't stop writing. 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.240 Oh I was writing easy for you or hard? 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.600 I find writing to be pretty hard. 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:12.640 But when you write a piece, I can tell when 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:14.840 you hit your stride. Tell me if I'm wrong. When 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.560 you have that section about your Malijong fast and that 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.239 you have been the receptacle of Erica Jong stories, that 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.480 whoever meets you has an Erica Jong story. Do you 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.919 remember that section? You hit your stride with that section? 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:30.280 Oh, thank you? 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.000 I mean you know that book was a lot of rewriting, 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:36.680 was it, Yeah, A lot of rewriting and a lot 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.080 of like paring it down and trying to figure out 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.879