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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean we don't have a great show for you. Today.

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Speaker 1: Journalist Ejeene Carroll stops by to talk about her new

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Speaker 1: book Not My Type. But first we have New York

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Speaker 1: Magazine's Bridget read on her new book, Little Boss Is

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Speaker 1: Everywhere How the pyramid scheme shaped America.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Bridget.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me explain to us what

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Speaker 1: you write on and where you got to.

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Speaker 2: With this book and how you got here.

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Speaker 3: I am a features writer at New York Magazine right now.

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Speaker 3: I primarily write about housing for Curbs, which is part

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Speaker 3: of New York mag I started this book when I

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Speaker 3: was a writer at The Cut, which is New York

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Speaker 3: magas women's vertical. That's how I sort of was introduced

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Speaker 3: to this concept of multile marketing, which is very similar,

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Speaker 3: if not the same, as the pyramid scheme. And I

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Speaker 3: wrote a really short article in twenty twenty one about

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Speaker 3: MLMs and just kind of being obsessed from there, and

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Speaker 3: that's where this book was born.

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Speaker 1: MLMs, I feel like they're tied to both women's entrepreneurship

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Speaker 1: in a strange and destructive way and also to maga politics.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're really interesting because they are the sleazy

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Speaker 1: foundation to many of the things we're looking at right

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Speaker 1: now and right here. So i'd love you to talk

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Speaker 1: first because you come from the cut about the women's

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Speaker 1: ish world of MLOUS, and then I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: you into maga worlds. But I could see how there's

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Speaker 1: a sort of natural progression here, so talk us through it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So MLM was invented by men in the post

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Speaker 3: war era scammy salesman who decided that they were going

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Speaker 3: to create this basically what functions as a Ponzi scheme,

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Speaker 3: but within the sort of shell of door to door selling,

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Speaker 3: which is like, you know, an age old American pastime.

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Speaker 2: Give us an example of a company that does that.

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Speaker 3: Oh sure, so the oldest one is Amway. The guys

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Speaker 3: that invented MLM did it with a company and a

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Speaker 3: vitamin company called Neutralite. Richard DeVos and Jamian andl who

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Speaker 3: founded Amway. They started as Neutralite salesmen and then they

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Speaker 3: did what always happens in MLM, which is they picked

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Speaker 3: up all their distributors and started their own company, which

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Speaker 3: is Amway. In the late fifties. Amway is the biggest

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Speaker 3: and most influential MLM in the world. There's also herbal Life,

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Speaker 3: There's Mary Kay, There's Shackley Tupperware. I could go on

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Speaker 3: and on. There are hundreds thousands of MLMs now in

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Speaker 3: the US alone. So even though it was invented by

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Speaker 3: men very quickly five sixties, women who went to work

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Speaker 3: in droves during World War Two, and then even though

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Speaker 3: those levels fell back down after the war, steadily during

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Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties, more women started going to work,

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Speaker 3: and of course that rose from there. But what happened

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Speaker 3: was women statistically went predominantly to industries where the work

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Speaker 3: wasn't great right, work was insecure. They were secretaries, they

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Speaker 3: were doing retails, the service sector where you're not big benefits,

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Speaker 3: you're not doing typical wage work, and you are also

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Speaker 3: in many respects still doing your childcare. So this need

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Speaker 3: for flexible work and women being the primary recipient of

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Speaker 3: a pitch for flexible work, which is what a huge

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Speaker 3: part of MLM is. It's the idea that you're an

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Speaker 3: independent contractor, so already by the sixties, women became predominantly

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Speaker 3: the people who work in multiple marketing, and of course

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Speaker 3: the industry all then began touting itself as like an

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Speaker 3: opportunity for women, but always the conservative The industry is

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Speaker 3: really conservative politically and in terms of its gender ideology.

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Speaker 3: So from the get go, MLM is a type of

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Speaker 3: flexible work where women can walk a line right where

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Speaker 3: they're contributing to the household, but not in a way

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Speaker 3: that threatens their roles as wives and mothers. Mary Kay

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Speaker 3: is the most notable founder of an MLM, and she

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Speaker 3: was a huge part in kind of selling that story,

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Speaker 3: and there are many copies of it since, and we

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Speaker 3: could trace a line all the way to current MLMs

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Speaker 3: where women are girl bosses. They're wearing the oversized blazer

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Speaker 3: and doing the TikTok videos, but they're also you know,

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Speaker 3: it's all about, Oh, I retired my husband who's a

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Speaker 3: Christian firefighter, and I serve him still.

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Speaker 2: So you can do both.

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Speaker 3: It's really a way to like sublimate women's ambition, sublimate

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Speaker 3: their economic fears, but do it in a way that

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Speaker 3: does it threaten the overall you know, nuclear family structure.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So now get us talking about how these multi

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Speaker 1: level marketing schemes have popped up in MAGA world.

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Speaker 3: The roots of MLM in the Republican Party are beyond deep.

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Speaker 3: Even before Rich DeVos and Javannandel. Rich Davas of course,

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Speaker 3: being Betsy Davas's father in law, the founders of multi

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Speaker 3: level marketing were connected to the Republican Party in California.

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Speaker 3: They supported Nixon.

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Speaker 1: A lot of Republican money comes from multi level marketing.

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Speaker 3: Yes, That's really what I tried to emphasize in this

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Speaker 3: book is the MLM money should be as scrutinized as

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Speaker 3: the empires of the Kochs the Mercers. Right, the money

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Speaker 3: that's actually been taken from these participants has powered the

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Speaker 3: Republican Party for decades. I mean, Devas and Van Andel

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Speaker 3: are the single biggest Republican donors. When Ronald Reagan is

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Speaker 3: running for president, Ronald Reagan makes Devas a member of

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Speaker 3: his kitchen cabinet. Javan Andl is the head of the

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Speaker 3: Chamber of Commerce. They both give heavily to Heritage, And

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Speaker 3: now right now the chairman of the board at Heritage

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Speaker 3: is Barb Van Andl. Gabby javan Andl's daughter I mean,

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Speaker 3: it goes on and on. They give heavily to the

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Speaker 3: Council for National Policy Focus on the Family. So these

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Speaker 3: are some dark money Christian groups. Betsy Debas, you know,

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Speaker 3: very notably resigned in the wake of January sixth and

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Speaker 3: made a big deal about it, but they continue to

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Speaker 3: give to all the packs and organizations that helped re

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Speaker 3: elect Trump, including the very scary Sheriff Fellowship, which is

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Speaker 3: you know, at Claremont Institute, group that wants to essentially

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Speaker 3: radicalize share its to use them to carry out Trump's

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Speaker 3: deportation dreams, but also just like to stop enforcing law

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Speaker 3: and order where Trump doesn't lot it to be enforced.

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Speaker 3: They're huge on school vouchers. So there are major engines

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Speaker 3: of both the economic forces of mega but also those

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Speaker 3: culture war goals. They've been shaping it long before we

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Speaker 3: even knew sort of Betsy Devas as a figure. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's bigger than that. There are other figures in this

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Speaker 3: industry that have been part of our political world, but

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Speaker 3: the Amway founders are certainly the most influential.

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Speaker 1: Right, let's talk for a minute about what we have

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Speaker 1: in the MAGA multi level marketing. What are they quote

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Speaker 1: unquote selling like Mary Kay is makeup, Amway is agriculture.

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Speaker 3: Amway is everything. In Amway, you're encouraged to replace your

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Speaker 3: entire household products with Amway products. So they sell toothpaste,

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Speaker 3: they sell an energy drink, Cold Access, they have their

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Speaker 3: own makeup brand called Artistry, And like, the reason you've

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Speaker 3: never heard of it is because MLMs are overwhelmingly closed

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Speaker 3: systems where the participants are buying up this stuff, because

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Speaker 3: that's how you really make the most money is just

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Speaker 3: by buying and buying and getting people under you to

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Speaker 3: be buying. And there are lots of people in my

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Speaker 3: book who talk about how they're encouraged by this stuff.

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Speaker 3: You're going to sell it. You have to like use,

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Speaker 3: you know, use the products that you want to sell.

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Speaker 3: They're encouraged to sign up for subscriptions, whether they're spending

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Speaker 3: like four hundred dollars a month on an automated Amway purchase.

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Speaker 3: The intersection of MAGA, especially the MAHA part of MAGA,

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Speaker 3: the wellness part and MLM is really strong because many

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Speaker 3: many of the products it's totally nonsensical MLM it makes sense,

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Speaker 3: like why would you go buy a toothpaste from Amway?

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Speaker 3: When you can go get it at Dwayne Reid for

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Speaker 3: you know, half the price. It never has made any

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Speaker 3: sense even when it was invented, So they really rely

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Speaker 3: on a pitch that taps into your fears, It taps

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Speaker 3: into your worries about your health, and it taps into these.

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Speaker 1: MAHA makes a lot of sense for that, Yeah, exactly, like.

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Speaker 3: You're you're sick in ways you don't even know, and

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Speaker 3: here's the way we can fix your gut biome or

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Speaker 3: all these you know, like pseudo science, untested science. MLM

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Speaker 3: is a perfect vessel for that because it relies on

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Speaker 3: this like over the top pitch that we're going to

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Speaker 3: change your life, which the supplement industry also does, and

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Speaker 3: so you know, the kind of Joe Rogan style supplement

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Speaker 3: world also has a lot of overlap with MLMs, So

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Speaker 3: they're the men's version as well, where men are you know,

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Speaker 3: getting in into that. And then the crypto side of MAGA,

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Speaker 3: so Trump's cryptoquin World, Liberty Financial, some of the guys

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Speaker 3: involved in running that have dipped their toe in the world,

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Speaker 3: but also just Trump in general, I mean, and Trump

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Speaker 3: of himself of course, has been the face of two MLMs,

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Speaker 3: one called Ideal Health and then ACN, which was the

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Speaker 3: lawsuit against Trump that was dropped.

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Speaker 2: Wait what ideal Health.

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Speaker 3: In the early two thousands or mid two thousands, actually,

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Speaker 3: Trump was tapped to be the face of an MLM

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Speaker 3: called Ideal Health, and they sold supplements and they called

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Speaker 3: it the Trump Network. It was literally described as like

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Speaker 3: an emergency way that for people who were suffering in

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Speaker 3: the financial crisis and the Great Recession to like become millionaires.

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Speaker 3: He reaped a lot of benefit from it, and of

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Speaker 3: course it collapsed and lots of people said they lost money.

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Speaker 3: But Trump in general, the way he built his career

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Speaker 3: is very MLM esque in that MLM relies on promotion.

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Speaker 3: It's all about promoting the lifestyle that you have and

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Speaker 3: making it sound like that's as if you're it's because

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Speaker 3: Amway or whatever MLM you're doing is such a like

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Speaker 3: incredibly special secret recipe for success. It can't be beat.

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Speaker 3: It's almost you know, as it's a it's a revolutionary invention.

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Speaker 3: But what you're really doing is just all you're making

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Speaker 3: all your money from people other people buying in which,

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Speaker 3: of course is what Trump has done his whole career. Right,

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Speaker 3: He's never really been a successful businessman. He's a you know,

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Speaker 3: a litany of real estate failures. He's propped up by

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Speaker 3: his father, who himself is propped up by tax evasion.

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Speaker 3: But he sells this idea that he's an incredible businessman.

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Speaker 3: And so millions of Americans for decades have bought into

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Speaker 3: the Trump thing, whether it's you know, buying his his

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Speaker 3: success systems or going to his failed university. They are

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Speaker 3: failing and they are losing their investments. But Trump is winning,

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Speaker 3: and that's that's really the multiple marketing meachanism at its core.

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Speaker 3: So it's incredibly trumpy. MLM is Trumpian, and Trump is

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Speaker 3: very MLMI.

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Speaker 2: With the MAHA stuff.

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Speaker 1: Does RFK Junior benefit from my multi level marketing besides

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Speaker 1: just being someone who is involved in it.

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Speaker 3: RFK Junior, as far as ener, doesn't benefit directly from

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Speaker 3: an MLM, but many of his prominence followers, especially online

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Speaker 3: and especially these women who are in the anti vax world,

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Speaker 3: also dabble in multi level marketing. They sell these products

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Speaker 3: that claim to you know, these are these are people

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Speaker 3: who got online during the pandemic and just like Trump,

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Speaker 3: you know, said you can take these supplements, you can

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Speaker 3: do these you know, additives to your water and they

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Speaker 3: will keep you from getting sick. So so there are

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Speaker 3: definitely promoters within MLM who are big RFK supporters.

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Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, who are those people.

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Speaker 3: They're not public figures, they're not people in that U no, no, no, no, okay.

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Speaker 3: But I would say the number one MLM promoter within

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Speaker 3: MAHA is doctor Oz. Doctor Oz has shilled for several

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Speaker 3: m lms. He appears as as a speaker. You know,

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Speaker 3: kaid probably hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that

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Speaker 3: over the years, and doctor Oz has has certainly went

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Speaker 3: his name to many MLMs in the past.

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Speaker 1: So explain to us sort of what when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at these mL they.

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Speaker 2: Just the goal is just to keep going. What's the goal? Yes,

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Speaker 2: just to keep going and to stay out of jail.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that hasn't been that hard for them because really

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Speaker 3: enforcement of any kind of I mean, they exist in

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Speaker 3: a very deeply unregulated space. Mway essentially bought its political

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Speaker 3: cover in the late seventies and those rules that have

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Speaker 3: never really been tested are what allow companies to keep

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Speaker 3: the business model. So as long as they sort of

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Speaker 3: purport to be using these rules in place that keep

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Speaker 3: them from being a pyramid scheme. There's virtually no enforcement

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Speaker 3: of this that unless the FTC what they're doing is

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Speaker 3: really really scammy. And the apt SEE has gone after

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Speaker 3: certainly less than one hundred posibly even less than fifty

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Speaker 3: MLMs since the seventies in terms of actually suing them

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Speaker 3: and shutting them down. Yeah, I mean not one pyramid scheme.

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Speaker 3: Multiple marketing company was shut down during Reagan and butsch

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Speaker 3: one during Bush two they started up a little bit,

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Speaker 3: and then in the Clinton administration. But even during the

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Speaker 3: herbal Life lawsuit when the FTC suit urbal Life, and

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Speaker 3: that was that whole Bill Ackman saga where Bill Ackman

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Speaker 3: came out and wanted to short urban life. This is

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Speaker 3: in twenty eleven, twenty twelve. When the FTC finally sued

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Speaker 3: Herbalife in twenty sixteen, they immediately crafted a settlement with

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Speaker 3: the company Erbalife had hired the Desta Group. This is

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Speaker 3: a bipartisan situation where people you know, on both sides

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Speaker 3: of the political spectrum have involved themselves with MLM Rbalife

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Speaker 3: also or am why I believe us boys Schiller at

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Speaker 3: one point. So you know, these are big corporate companies.

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Speaker 3: Melan Albright was a spokesperson for Erbal Life for many years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, that's so bad, bad and a good example

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Speaker 1: of you can be on the wrong side of history

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter what party you're in. Right, there's

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Speaker 1: no world in which any of this is opay.

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Speaker 3: And MLMs get by because they're incredibly complicated in terms

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Speaker 3: of the way they figured out how to talk with

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Speaker 3: the business model. Like the way I explained the business

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Speaker 3: model to you is not how they explain it, right.

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Speaker 3: They make it sound the lot like it's door to

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Speaker 3: door selling, which to a lot of people is very

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Speaker 3: like old timey and American, and so you're like, how

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Speaker 3: could there be anything wrong with this? And because they

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Speaker 3: are old, they're from the early fifties, we are sort

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Speaker 3: of trapped in the legal precedent that was set during

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Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties and seventies, And so there's a

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Speaker 3: lot keeping MLMs from being understood in the way that

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Speaker 3: I think they should be understood, Like I think the

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Speaker 3: Amway family should be treated like the Sacklers in terms

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Speaker 3: of the harm that they've done on the world. Because

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Speaker 3: the majority of MLM participants are worldwide. Most most MLM

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Speaker 3: participants are not in the US anymore. So there's millions

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Speaker 3: of people here, but there's many more millions around the world.

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Speaker 3: And you can imagine how much if you're in a

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Speaker 3: country with way, way less of GDP than the United States,

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Speaker 3: the idea that you can buy in for a small

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Speaker 3: amount of money and become a millionaire is is going

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Speaker 3: to like sweep you up in India or in China

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Speaker 3: or wherever you are. So yeah, I mean that there's

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Speaker 3: a lot there's a lot of history that I tried

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Speaker 3: to pull apart in my book to make people understand, like, yes,

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Speaker 3: the Betsy Devas, we can critique a lot of her

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Speaker 3: views right now, but nobody really talks about like where

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Speaker 3: does her money come from? Betsy Devas's brother is Eric Prince.

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Speaker 3: So these two kind of Michigan dynasties that are hugely

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Speaker 3: influential in our modern far right party.

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Speaker 2: And profoundly sketchy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and both really like what MLM does is it's

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Speaker 3: an engine of propaganda that I really find, ultimately at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, anti democratic. It's all about

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Speaker 3: enrolling people in an exploitative and harmful system and using

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Speaker 3: basically cult tactics to keep their noses to the grindstone,

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Speaker 3: keep telling them it's going to get better. Keep going,

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Speaker 3: keep going. You know you're doing it. You want to

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Speaker 3: do it by yourself. You can do it as an individual.

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Speaker 3: You don't need government benefits. The government makes you a slave.

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Speaker 3: And that capitalism works best with no regulation and no

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Speaker 3: rules like that's what MLM you propagates on the on

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Speaker 3: a grassroots level. And truly the aim of how MLM

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Speaker 3: has operated in tandem with ideology is to get to

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Speaker 3: a place where there really is no one keeping capital,

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Speaker 3: the forces of capital corporations accountable, that they can truly

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Speaker 3: do whatever they want. That is what MLM would love,

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Speaker 3: because of course there's a lot of evidence that MLM's

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Speaker 3: fraud and so they don't want the FTC, they don't

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Speaker 3: want consumer protection, they don't want state ags to be empowered.

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Speaker 3: You know, they would love to simply operate in a

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Speaker 3: wild West, which, of course is like you can see

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Speaker 3: it in Doge right now, right, you know, which of

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Speaker 3: course is getting so much of it's blueprint from Heritage. Heritage,

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Speaker 3: which is very much a project of multiple marketing. So

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Speaker 3: not to sound like I have a tinfoil hat on,

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Speaker 3: but it feels like a conspiracy, because it really is.

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Speaker 3: If you look at the evidence.

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Speaker 2: You don't sound tinfoil Hattie at all. Thank you, bridget Read,

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: E Gene Carrol is a journalist and the author of

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Speaker 1: the new book Not My Type. Welcome back to Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: Eagan Carroll, Molly my Darling, Hellottle friend. So let us

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Speaker 1: talk about this book. I have it right here, Not

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Speaker 1: My Type. It was a total secret, this book. No

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Speaker 1: one knew about it. You kept it secret secret. Talk

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Speaker 1: to us about how this happened and where you wrote

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Speaker 1: this book.

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Speaker 2: Also, I love Donald Trump's blurb.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we got Donald Trump to blurb the book.

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Speaker 2: I don't know who she is. So let's talk about

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Speaker 2: this book.

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Speaker 4: I love talking about the book. Molly. I'm eighty one

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Speaker 4: and I'm been a magazine writer for the last fifty years.

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Speaker 4: I was put into the middle of a highly comic situation,

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Speaker 4: surrounded with characters that not even Molly John Fast could create,

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Speaker 4: each one more surreal and more hilarious and more frightening

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Speaker 4: and more stupendous than the last. And as an old

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Speaker 4: time journalist, I could not help myself. I had to

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Speaker 4: get it down now. It was saint Martin's who decided

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Speaker 4: we will keep the book secret. And Molly, when you

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Speaker 4: and I know that when we have a secret, we

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Speaker 4: become very powerful. So we kept every sentenced secret. And

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Speaker 4: I just I had that golden nugget inside of me,

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Speaker 4: that secrecy. I knew stuff that he didn't know. I

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Speaker 4: was going to explode what really went on behind the

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Speaker 4: scenes and this, you know, the high comedy. He has

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Speaker 4: never been treated this way, and we kept it under wraps.

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Speaker 4: And that's what we did. And Molly, we pulled it off.

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Speaker 4: I mean we pulled it off.

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Speaker 1: I know because I was there on Morning Joe the

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Speaker 1: day you revealed that you had done it.

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Speaker 4: Did you anchor again? Today?

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Speaker 1: I did the view today, I'm doing Morning Joe tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: How was the view good?

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Speaker 2: Those ladies are really cool?

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Speaker 4: Now? How did I know you did TV today? Because

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Speaker 4: you have on full makeup, full makeup. The lips give

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Speaker 4: you away. I should have guessed the view, should have

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Speaker 4: guessed the view. That's perfect for you. Well, the morning

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Speaker 4: I did Morning Joe and you were the anchor, that

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Speaker 4: was the morning you hit the best seller list. Yes,

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Speaker 4: so I didn't even want to talk about my book.

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Speaker 4: I was more excited that your book hit the best

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Speaker 4: seller list. Yes, poor Molly, you look like you'd been

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Speaker 4: hit by an arrow because your whole interview went south

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Speaker 4: because I opened it by saying, you know, let's not

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Speaker 4: talk about this my life. Congratulations for the best seller.

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Speaker 4: So that's not my type. Just hit the best seller list,

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Speaker 4: I know, number two. This is what happens when you

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Speaker 4: keep something secret.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: It was during the trial that you decided you were

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Speaker 1: going to write this down, right, Well, Molly.

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Speaker 4: I was writing down the whole time. When I returned

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Speaker 4: my hotel room during this day, I would open up,

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Speaker 4: I'd take my phone and I'd open it and I'm

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Speaker 4: just talking to it, every single detail. Everything we were eating,

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Speaker 4: what Joe Takapina was, where hall Aleena Hobbs hair was

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Speaker 4: that day? Was it long? Was it short? Was she

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Speaker 4: wearing the huge diamond ring? Come on this detail? I

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Speaker 4: could get down. And then I had the court transcripts.

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Speaker 4: And if you talk about high comedy, I wish you

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Speaker 4: could read the court transcripts from the two trump time.

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Speaker 4: John Gresham could not have written drama that was like

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Speaker 4: what was going on in this corp. So I had

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Speaker 4: all the truth. Nothing could have stopped me nothing. You

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Speaker 4: could have come to my house with all your children.

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Speaker 4: You could have dragged your mother out of a nice

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Speaker 4: place for shoes, put her in the car, and all

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Speaker 4: of you could have come and yelled at me, and

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Speaker 4: I would have written this book. I had to get

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Speaker 4: it out. People have to know that he is just

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Speaker 4: an old man in saffron colored makeup with his hair

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Speaker 4: done up like Barbara Stanwy in Ballfire. That's who he is.

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Speaker 4: That's it. And page after page and how he reacted

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Speaker 4: and what he did in court and what he didn't do.

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Speaker 4: It was. I was fascinated by it. I couldn't stop writing.

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Speaker 4: Oh I was writing easy for you or hard?

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Speaker 2: I find writing to be pretty hard.

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Speaker 4: But when you write a piece, I can tell when

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Speaker 4: you hit your stride. Tell me if I'm wrong. When

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Speaker 4: you have that section about your Malijong fast and that

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Speaker 4: you have been the receptacle of Erica Jong stories, that

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Speaker 4: whoever meets you has an Erica Jong story. Do you

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Speaker 4: remember that section? You hit your stride with that section?

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you?

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Speaker 1: I mean you know that book was a lot of rewriting,

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Speaker 1: was it, Yeah, A lot of rewriting and a lot

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Speaker 1: of like paring it down and trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what went where I have organizational problems. But wait, I

402
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Speaker 1: want you to explain to us sort of what it's

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Speaker 1: like to have this book in the world, the trial,

404
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Speaker 1: and also just like you've survived a very scary trial,

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Speaker 1: you are now in the world. Just talk to us

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Speaker 1: about sort of where you are right now writing it.

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Speaker 4: Because I've never been to a therap just in my life,

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Speaker 4: I'm fine. You know, my whole life has to spread

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Speaker 4: sweetness in life, and I don't think about bad things

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Speaker 4: that went on to me. That was terrible because you know,

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Speaker 4: two official psychiatris hired, one by Trump, one by Robbery

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Speaker 4: to plumb my depths and find out what really happened.

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00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 4: Trump's psychiatrist was to prove that I was a gold

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Speaker 4: bigger wire. Our psychiatrist was just to find out if

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Speaker 4: what I think happened actually happened. And it turns out

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Speaker 4: I did so as much as I was hiding that

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Speaker 4: for myself. I suffered.

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Speaker 1: And everything I've read that you've written has shown that

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Speaker 1: you really did suffer, that it really changed the trajectory

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Speaker 1: of your life that attack.

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Speaker 4: I've never had a romance since nineteen ninety six. No romance,

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Speaker 4: but I didn't organize my life around I went to

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Speaker 4: work the next day. It was not the organizing principle,

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Speaker 4: and I hid it from myself and writing about it,

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Speaker 4: Mali brought it back in black and white in a

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Speaker 4: way that helped me. It just made I ended up

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Speaker 4: very happy. It was like I was on very high

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Speaker 4: peak and I could see it all. And I think

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Speaker 4: you probably feel the same when you finish the book

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Speaker 4: about your mother. You could see it with new eyes

431
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 4: because you actually right got it down on paper. It

432
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 4: was a relief and I was happy afterwards. And the

433
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 4: amazing to me because I would never, ever, never, and

434
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 4: I don't think you would never in my life dream

435
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 4: that anything I could write would ever get near a

436
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 4: bestseller list ever in my life. And then when that happened, Well,

437
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 4: how did you feel about it when you hit the

438
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 4: best seller list?

439
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: I was shocked, exactly, just shocked, shopped.

440
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 4: One hundred thousand books are published every year, and here, Malija,

441
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 4: you know it's not it wasn't surprising to me where

442
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 4: you hit it. I mean I couldn't even eat.

443
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 2: I eat a lot of ice cream.

444
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 4: And that cake that you, oh, I love the cake

445
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 4: that you order.

446
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: It's a very scary time in American life, and Trump

447
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: is pretty scary and he is really mad at you.

448
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: So how do you not be scared? Because there are

449
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: billionaires who are terrified of him.

450
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 4: I don't give two shits. Do not give two shits.

451
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 4: If somebody shoots me, it's fine with me. I don't

452
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 4: want to feel anything. And shoot me in the arm

453
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 4: or the leg. I do not care. I am not afraid.

454
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 4: You cannot enter this world and be frightened about some

455
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 4: stupid Trump or doing whatever. No, shoot me. Fine, I've

456
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 4: done I've lived eighty one, my li, I've had a

457
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: fabulous life. I mean, I have friends like you. How

458
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 4: could I be happier? Fine? I can't live in fear?

459
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 4: Do you live in fair? Are your mouth off every

460
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 4: fucking day?

461
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: No? But what do you think about?

462
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: Like? They are all these very very rich men who

463
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: are terrified of saying anything negative about Trump.

464
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 4: You're talking about CBS, ab Hal, all those.

465
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: I'm talking about corporations and people and Bill but even

466
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: I actually think the most subversive are the billionaires because

467
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: these are people who have unlimited funds. Right, they need security.

468
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: It's surrounding error and those guys are terrified as Trump.

469
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: So I mean, what do you have to say to

470
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: people like Jeff Bezos, like Elon Musk, like you know,

471
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: I mean, Elon happens to be much his own thing.

472
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: But to those men who live in who are cowering

473
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: in front of Donald Trump.

474
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 4: Well, because Bezos has got you know, Lauren Sanchez boobs

475
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 4: to protect him. He's not good because you know, those

476
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 4: those boobs are gott to protect him and all their

477
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 4: fucking wedding guests, so we don't have to worry about him.

478
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: We don't have to worry about him. I think one

479
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 4: of the reasons they're riches because they're well, you know,

480
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 4: they're all in a you know, they're in a band.

481
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 4: They all want to live forever. You know, they all

482
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: they get the shots of the baby juice and all that.

483
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 4: It's just a different tribe, Malie. We can't make them

484
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 4: brave your podcast every single day, you are running your mouth,

485
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 4: every single of it.

486
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: I think it's hard because I think bravery is contagious,

487
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: and I think that powerness is also contagious. And here

488
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: we have, you know, a president who has said he

489
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: will seekret retribution on his political enemies. I wonder if

490
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: you could talk about like writing this book where you

491
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: scared at all?

492
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 4: Or now, Melie, I use humor, comedy, a laugh. If

493
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: we can laugh, that is a great weapon, because when

494
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 4: we laugh, we can rise above whatever the dark situation

495
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 4: is that our brains are free for that minute. You

496
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: use a lot, I use it. No, we've got to

497
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 4: laugh at this darkness. It is a comical, horrible track situation.

498
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 4: If we see the humor in it, we can move on.

499
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 4: All The thing is we have to do, as you know,

500
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 4: is get off our lazy asses and stop sitting in

501
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: our houses and then go outside and start to organize.

502
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 4: And we could also get together and control the economy

503
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 4: if we wanted. We all women particularly had more money

504
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 4: than you know, anybody. We could start pulling strings. But

505
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 4: we just sit in our houses. I don't know what

506
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 4: we're doing in there.

507
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: There was a sort of reckoning about men and sexual violence.

508
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: There was a moment of me too, and then we

509
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: saw a lot of cycling about. You know, what was progress,

510
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: what was push back? What was progress? What was push back?

511
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: Have you felt that in the way people respond to you.

512
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 4: No, I live in a huddle up in the country.

513
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 4: I don't really I'm not really around people.

514
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: Do you think now that Cuomo has lost that there's

515
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: a bit of like, maybe it actually matters, Maybe victims

516
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: stories matter.

517
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 4: Women in New York they didn't forget, you know, unlike

518
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 4: the Republicans who actually have never heard, you know, Molly,

519
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 4: the NY people in the South have never heard that

520
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 4: Donald Trump was held liable because there's a Berlin wall.

521
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 4: I don't think they're listening to fast politics. Frankly, right,

522
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: I know the poor souls. I mean they're deprived. They

523
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: are deprived, but they don't know it. But in New York,

524
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 4: everybody knew about Blomo. Every woman knew about Glomo, and

525
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 4: she took that into the voting booth and she considered it.

526
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, I think that's a real thing. So what

527
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: are you going to do next? Are you writing? What

528
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: is your next move?

529
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 4: Oh? Well, I got a big plan. I'm coming to

530
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 4: your house and we're going to eat cake and we're

531
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 4: going to discuss how unusual it is to hit the

532
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 4: best seller list, both of us who would never dream

533
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 4: of ever achieving this. And we're gonna have cake, and

534
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 4: we're gonna have milk, and we're gonna have ice cream

535
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: and We're just gonna appreciate what we've done, and I'll

536
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 4: appreciate you and you'll appreciate me. Or just well, just

537
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 4: eat cake. We'll have crumbs everywhere, and we'll wear that,

538
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 4: you know, you make up that you're wearing right now,

539
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 4: and the lipstick. You know, we'll do that. I think

540
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 4: that's a good plan. I think that's the plan. On

541
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 4: we just enjoy ourselves. We kind of stop being so

542
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 4: tragic and depressed, and we got to stand up, go outside,

543
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: start to understand if we get together, that we can

544
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 4: control the situation. We are his boss, not the other

545
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,479
Speaker 4: way around. And then we'll do this. You're Alder, I'm

546
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 4: Alway's house for pay that, you know what? What else?

547
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: Eg? And Carol? Will you please come back?

548
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 4: Wait? I have to go now where do we come back?

549
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: What the hell are you talking about? Okay, I'll come back.

550
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

551
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: All right, I'll see you soon, Mali.

552
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

553
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

554
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

555
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

556
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going Thanks for listening,