WEBVTT - Meeting Your Soulmate While in a Sexless Marriage 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.919 Welcome back to I Do Part two. It's one of 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:23.240 your hosts, Jenny Garth, jumping in today. I'm intrigued by 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.040 the conversation I'm going to have today. Sometimes when people 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:32.960 break up or divorce, it's complicated, and sometimes there's a 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:38.199 third person involved. My guest today is an author, a speaker, 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.400 and a teacher known for her books Choose Wonder over 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.240 Worry and the Answers Are Within You. Her new memoir, 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.639 Lovable is out now and I can't wait to talk 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:52.640 to her about love, marriage, relationships, divine intervention, shame, guilt, healing, oh, 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.400 all the things, so much, so much so, please welcome 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:01.120 Amber Rat to the podcast. Hello, Hey, Amber's oh so exciting. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.360 You have a new book. The title of your new 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:08.080 memoir is lovable, and that is a word that carries 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.959 so much. So let's just start with this question. Have 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.720 you always felt like you were lovable? 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:17.959 I have not always felt lovable. But what's interesting is 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.640 that I don't know if I would necessarily define it 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.480 that way. I wouldn't have thought, oh, I don't know 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.280 if I'm lovable. It was for me kind of this 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:30.160 like unconscious story that was driving so much of my 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.800 behavior and motivation without me even realizing it. I didn't 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.360 realize that I was trying to accomplish all these things. 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.360 And I had this ambition in my career because I 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.840 felt unworthy of love. I didn't realize that I was 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:48.680 going after a particular kind of unhealthy relationship because I 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.360 didn't feel lovable, and I thought if I could convince 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.440 them that I was worthy of love, then I would 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:59.040 finally be enough. Though no, I haven't always felt lovable. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.320 But it's interesting all the ways it was sneaking up 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.120 in my life without me even realizing it. 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.560 Right right when you were younger, What were your examples 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:11.200 of love when you were growing up, like things that 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:12.519 you saw with your parents. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.040 Yeah, I didn't have healthy models of love. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:16.320 So happens. 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.720 Yeah, my father actually left my mom and I when 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.359 I was about two and a half and he got 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.160 into a car accident when I was three. He got 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.320 behind the wheel of a car under the influence his 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.119 best friend, who was getting married the next day, said 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.359 very sadly died in the crash. But my father had 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.360 a traumatic brain injury, which my mom found out about 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:44.000 on the news, and then he was in a hospital 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.280 from when I was three until I was twelve, but he, 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.080 you know, never regained full consciousness. But the reason I 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.560 share all this is because I remember, you know, one 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.800 of my I have two core memories of him. The 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.560 first was when I was right before he got in 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.800 the car ACXI and he called me and said, you know, 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.160 I'm sorry I haven't been around, but no matter what, 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.440 I'll always love you. And that's one of my first 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.079 core memories as a kid and my first memory of him. 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.359 And then fast forward to I'm nine years old and 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.080 I'm meeting him in the hospital and here i'm, you know, 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.440 now a young girl who wants nothing more than to 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.239 feel that sort of love and connection with her father. 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.440 And so I go to meet him, and of course 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.680 he can't meet me. He has a brain injury. But 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.960 little me didn't fully understand, and so she like walks 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.040 into the hospital room just like can you see me? 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.280 Can you know me? Can you love me? And you know, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.520 he can't meet me there. But I end up making 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.800 up a story that I tell my friends at the playground, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.119 which is that the moment I walked in the room, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.440 he knew my name. He said I love you to 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.640 me and only me, and you know, I share the 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:54.920 story in the book, because when I was reflecting on it, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.760 I realized that the you know, for little me, that 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.680 reality was so painful to look at that I had 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.240 to make up a story to make the experience. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:10.600 Okay, oh that breaks my heart. Man. What was your 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:11.600 relationship with your mom? 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.920 Like? My mom had me so young, she was twenty one. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:21.479 She you know, my mom was this like powerhouse entrepreneur. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.960 You know, she had all men working for her. She 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:26.560 worked in the field of construction. She was like a 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.600 badass woman. Was she a contractor? 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:30.520 Was she an architect? 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.520 What was she was more like a She was an 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:38.000 interior like interior contractor. So she did all like interiors, flooring, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.320 window like everything inside of a developers in architects. But 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.000 so like I had this like strong career figure who, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:51.640 like you know, couldn't figure out love, and so I 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.200 had to a stepdad and I had you know, so 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:57.560 my momels of love were kind of like, I don't 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.000 want any of this. But the only thing I knew, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.240 the look out, of course, was like romantic comedies, these 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.960 grandeur expressions of love. This must be what love is like. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.240 Yeah, I think my girls grew up believing that that's 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.960 how real life was going to be too when it 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:18.400 came to relationships and love stories. It's just not like that. 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:19.680 No, it's just not like that. 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:25.159 Yeah. I mean when I was younger, I saw a 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:31.000 real love between my mom and dad. It wasn't always perfect, 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:36.200 you know. My mom struggled with her insecurities and jealousy. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.760 And it was weird because my mom too was a 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.600 very capable, strong entrepreneur out there with her own business 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.719 and really very independent. But then I would see that 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.599 other side of her that was modeling for me, jealousy, 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.240 and also I was at the other end of a 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.680 lot of messaging that things were supposed to look like 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.240 they looked in Cinderella, like you were supposed to be 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.320 put up on a pedestal and just revered and you know, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.920 cherished all the time. And it's not a very realistic, 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.760 you know, example of what it's really going to be like. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.479 So yeah, I think we all have we all come 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.720 into like our time when we start having those relationships 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.560 and learning about love independently and we have to figure 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.280 it all out and wide through all the muck that 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:34.240 we've been fed by society or our parents or whatever 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.120 it was. Our examples but yeah, it's it's an interesting 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.200 journey to find out, like, oh, that's not how it 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:47.600 really works. Yeah, in your book, you paint the picture 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.920 of a couple that looks on the outside like they 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:56.719 have it all together right, but apparently behind closed doors, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:02.280 the relationship was not what you needed it to be, 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.120 what it needed to be. It was sexless, there was 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.880 a lack of emotion and that depth that comes with that. 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:11.600 I think a lot of our audience can understand that 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.600 and can relate because that's what happens, you know, like 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.960 the decline of a marriage usually ends up with those characteristics. 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.640 Why do you think as women we take on this 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.120 sort of emotional burden to make everything look fine on 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:27.720 the outside. 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:32.600 Yeah, you know, I think partly because of you know, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.240 a it wasn't modeled to us what it's supposed to 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.280 look like, of what true lasting, genuine love two people 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.560 putting in the word, two people showing up consistently. And 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.920 so I can speak for myself, you know, I look 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.240 to the media, I look to movies of like, Okay, 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.520 it looks like this, so you have to paint this picture. 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.280 And so I think I felt pressure to make my 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.240 life match that ideal and you know, I did that 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.640 because I was trying to convince myself it was right. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.160 And I was afraid from the very beginning to listen 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:10.000 to the inner, the quiet, persistent voice within me that 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.240 was like, are you sure this is it? Are you 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.120 sure it's okay that you don't really have sexual chemistry 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:16.920 with him and he feels more like a friend than 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:18.720 a lover. Are you sure that's okay? And I just 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.920 pushed it down, pushed it down, pushed it down, because 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.120 you know, I was in my first marriage, I was 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.040 in my mid twenties. I thought this was what I 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.280 was supposed to do. You know, women are supposed to 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:29.960 now get married and do the thing and have the 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.560 kids and yeah. So I think there was both the 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:40.440 societal pressure to get it right combined with you know, 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:47.840 not knowing how to face what was missing in the relationship, 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.199 not knowing how to navigate those conversations. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:56.040 Yeah, because you feel the feelings, You feel the sort 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.520 of emptiness or the area where you're like, where that 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.319 question comes from? What is this? What it's really? Is 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:02.720 this it? 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.000 Yeah? 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.520 And it's probably very hard, I know, it's very hard 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.520 to start really listening to that voice because what you 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.880 want to do is shut it down and get rid 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.760 of it, because I feel ashamed of those feelings. I 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.000 can imagine you did too, Yeah, and. 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.240 It's like, oh God, no, don't make me. This is 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.040 going to be hard. I'm going to be able, even 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.000 though my life doesn't feel quite right right now, having 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.400 to address this and face that, Oh, don't make me 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:36.240 do that, that's so uncomfortable. Yeah. So I think that's 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:37.160 part of it as well. 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.320 I mean, for me, when I was going through a divorce, 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.959 I really struggle with that. And I think there's, you know, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:51.200 that that element of how it's been portrayed in the 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.520 press and how people know it, not you know, not 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.360 just me, but like the world seeing it as one 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:02.640 thing but me experiencing it as another. And then just 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.920 the feeling not only of the sheer disappointment for the kids, 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.000 but then because you didn't you didn't have kids with 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:11.839 your first husband. 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:13.720 I did not, thank God, Thank gosh. 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:19.679 Yeah, that's a whole nother mess to deal with. But yeah, 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.800 I remember just feeling like I'm letting everyone down, not 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.160 just me, not just my kids, not my family members, 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.840 his family members, but the entire world. And that was 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:38.040 just so much pressure Yeah, so much pressure. Yeah, you 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.520 really open up in your book about your struggle for 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.559 intimacy in your marriage, and I think that's really brave, 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:49.400 because that too, can be really shrouded in shame and 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.960 embarrassment and like there's something wrong with you. You know. 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.480 I know that you talked about the fact that your 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:02.120 partner would shut you down. Did that resonate with you 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:08.360 as rejection? Because I've been in that situation, and for 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.439 whatever the reason is, it's still there's still something inside 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:14.840 of me that says, ouch, you know, is there something 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:15.319 wrong with me? 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.680 Yeah? I think I internalized it a lot, and even 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.680 looking back at the relationship and all the parts of 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.360 it that weren't working, I never pointed to the relationship 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.960 as the problem. I was like, maybe I'm working too much. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.559 Maybe I'm not you know, getting enough downtime. Maybe we're 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.320 not supposed to live in New York. Maybe I like women. 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.840 Maybe you know. It was like all the questions, all 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.000 the questions of self of like why am I not 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.120 feeling intimacy, Why am I not feeling connected to my partner? 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.920 Why isn't this working? Oh, I must be broken, I 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.439 must be the problem. If I can just fix me 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.360 if I can just fix us, if I can just 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.440 It was like I was obsessively trying to figure it 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.800 out instead of being like, oh, maybe we're not that compatible. 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.120 Yeah you know, and you don't want to jump to 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:01.480 that one. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.280 Yeah maybe you know we're more friends than we are lovers. 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.760 Maybe we you know, maybe this isn't the right fit. 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.840 That felt yeah, scarier to look at. And so it was, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.240 you know, I was always the issue, and in terms 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.760 of seeing it, you know what's interesting. I think because 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.280 of my background and because of some of my you know, 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:29.240 my abandonment experiences as a young girl, I decided unconsciously 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.800 to make safe choices in love and I never wanted 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.840 to feel the longing or the desire for someone who 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.960 couldn't meet me. And so I think I chose my 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.960 ex because he was more of a friend, He was 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.000 safe in some ways. It felt like a you know, 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.240 a choice where I won't get hurt again. And because 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.760 you know, the intimacy and that chemistry wasn't really there 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.600 from the beginning, I kind of was like, oh, well, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.720 maybe we'll figure that out eventually. It's okay, Like I 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:00.960 you know, feel safe year in a lot of ways, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.680 So while it like, there were absolutely moments where it 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.880 felt like a rejection and I felt like what am 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.120 I doing wrong? But I also think I like knew 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.920 deep down that I had I was like waking up 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.160 to the fact that I had chosen a safe partner 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:19.760 out of fear of being left again. 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.680 Yeah, I can relate my first, uh, my first marriage, 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.720 this is my third one. My first marriage was the 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.400 same way, Like I felt like my father was he 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.320 was really ill, and I felt like he was going 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:38.400 to leave me, And I chose somebody that felt safe 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.800 in certain ways, but I didn't even recognize the ways 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.840 in which he wasn't safe at all. Yes, because I 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.120 wanted All that mattered to me was that feeling of safety, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.880 that like big strong figure next to me, behind me, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.000 with me, you know. So it's definitely something I think 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.800 that we make mistakes, you know, when we learn from 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.480 and even like in the ebbs and flows of a 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:07.880 real of a marriage, like there are days upon days 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.800 when you're like is this right? Or like am I 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:13.880 are we too? Are we just roommates? 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:14.240 Are we? 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.960 What's do we really connect? And then when you stop 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.360 all of those spending thoughts and you start to focus 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.400 on how can you make the relationship what you want? 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.920 Like what work you can do from your side to 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:35.360 see if those feelings change, those dynamics change. But I 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.400 think it's natural to have all those doubts and all 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.600 those questions because I don't know about you, but like, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:47.000 being with one person for the rest of my life 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.680 is like that is that normal? Is that doable? Do 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.720 you ever? Do you ever feel that way? Like were 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.800 you ever like maybe just marriage isn't for me? 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.600 You know that it wasn't. That wasn't what came up 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.400 for me. Mine was more like how do I like, 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.680 can we continue to grow together? And how do we 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.720 continue to grow together? And fearing that we might grow apart. 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.600 But I think I was the kind of person who 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.640 like wanted marriage and wanted that, like the idea of 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.040 a long term commitment was actually exciting to me. I 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.800 might be more anxiously attached in the attachment styles. I 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.560 was like, I want closeness, and it's more like what 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.240 if it goes away? So I think that that's more 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.320 what I've had to contend with. But I totally hear 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.760 you on the like is this is it really one person? 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.560 And you know and it's so funny because like marriages 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.400 go through seasons, like I you know what, the story 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.960 I tell my book is how I met my person 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.080 well married, And that was what finally woke me up 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.640 to realizing, wait a minute, I'm in a fake marriage. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.240 And I didn't even know I was how much I 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.680 was pretending. But you know in this, you know, we've 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.360 just had a in the in my second marriage, we've 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:58.840 now you know, we've had a kid. We have a 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.520 ten month old, and you know, it's not the like 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:07.400 sexy long drives, romantic nights out. It's like logistics, who's 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.880 doing this? You know, It's it's such a different season 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.200 of the marriage. And there are moments where I'm like, 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.560 are we ever going to get that like that you 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.960 know back in Yeah? Right, But I feel like it 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:25.200 like it's it's it deepened, it evolves into something different, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.480 and I think, are like, what we're doing now is 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.840 how do we keep that connection alive in this season 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:37.680 of like diapers and sleepless nights and all of the 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.360 agitation that comes from not sleeping. 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.360 Yeah, I mean people could definitely relate to that if 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.520 you if you have a puppy or if you have kids. 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:51.360 You know, the focus is elsewhere, and it can really 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:56.080 chisel away at those connections, those those intimate, sweet things 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.520 that you shared when those responsibilities weren't there. 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.000 Your childist is like, why do I like you again? No? 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.960 I love you, but why do I like you right now? Right? 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:17.639 I'm curious when you were talking about this, did you 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.280 have that feeling with your first husband in the beginning. 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:25.679 No, it was very different. It was, oh, he feels 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.600 like a friend. I feel safe here. And I resonated 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.960 so deeply to what you said where It's like I 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.879 thought he was so safe and I didn't yet realize 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.160 all the ways in which I felt unsafe and like that. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.320 You know, that chipping away came later. But what I 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.760 am very grateful for is that was a nine year 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.359 relationship and I think because I felt safe enough, it 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:49.560 was actually a massive moment for my career, my creative expression. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.800 You know, I became an author, I wrote many books. 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.359 I really like, found and discovered myself. I did deep work. 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.760 I understood my wounding. I you know, learned about attachment trauma. 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.280 You know, it's that relationship enabled me to do all 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.560 of that, and I feel like kind of become the 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.800 woman who was ready for extraordinary and safe love. And 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:15.120 so in some ways that prepared me that relationship, as 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:16.080 odd as that might sound. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.360 Was he doing work also while you were doing that? 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.480 That was part of the challenge is he was not 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.120 doing the same work, and so I felt like there 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.719 was like a mismatch in depth and I, yeah, I 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:33.000 just that was my biggest begging of him, like please, 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.000 like we you look at you know, when you look 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:35.680 at your stuff? 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.320 Yeah, I know. And you can't make your partner do that. 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:42.679 Yeah. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.400 And sometimes they don't do it, They just won't ever 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.840 do it. But sometimes something happens and they have that 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.760 moment where they're like, oo, I see my part in this. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.919 I really need to figure out why I am What 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.960 am I doing in this team? Yeah? 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.960 And I had a therapist say something really insightful to me. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.280 She was like, this is interesting. Who does he remind 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.000 you of? Because it sounds like you've picked the same 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.560 person who's familiar but new and you're trying to resolve 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:15.840 the wounds of your past. Who are you always trying 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:17.240 to change in your life? And I was like, oh, 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.720 my mom, I know. So she's like, you're not saying, hey, husband, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.080 do the work, please work on yourself so that I 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:26.879 you know, I'll I know you'll still be here to 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.199 take care of me. You're saying, hey, mom, please do 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.000 the work so I know you'll still be here to 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:32.639 take care of me. And I realize like, oh, I 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:34.480 was like, oh my god, my husband is a surrogate 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.520 for my How my mother wound? 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.040 I hate that so much. It's so hard because that's 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.680 the last person you really want to be thinking about 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.560 when you're looking into the eyes of your spouse, like 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:49.600 it's not good. 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.320 No. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. I 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.879 don't have mommy issues. And my therapist is like, uh huh, 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:56.600 you're never trying to change or fixure of mom. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.199 Oh man, that I mean that at the core of 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.159 any fraud, you know, you can't change or fix anyone. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.240 So yeah, that's you're never going to get very far 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:12.040 with that challenge. We hear from a lot of people 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:17.160 on this podcast that they knew their marriage wasn't right 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.359 long before it actually ended, whether it was you know, 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.239 near the end, or even if it was before they 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.679 walked down the aisle or as they're walking down the aisle. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:33.199 There's those thoughts, you know, I always wonder am I 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.920 these thoughts that on, these questioning thoughts about like have 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:38.600 I picked right? Is this forever? 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:39.159 Is? 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.960 Can I cohabitate with this person for the rest of 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.080 my life? I always think, is that is that a 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.600 real red flag? Is that an actual red flag? Or 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:54.160 is that just my mind just trying to destroy something good? 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.200 How did you, like, cause I'm sure you felt those 0:20:57.240 --> 0:20:59.680 feelings at times too, Like how did you deal with that? 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.240 Yeah? I was I was one who walked down the 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.080 aisle thinking I don't know how long this is going 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.080 to last? Oh god, it was, you know, But I 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:08.560 was also like, but well through a great party. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:10.160 You see. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.840 If that sounds like, that's how I rationalize it in 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:17.639 the moment, you know. I think my struggle discerning between 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.879 intuition and fear is also part of what kept me 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:22.760 in it, because I kept saying, Oh, maybe this is 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.480 just fear, Maybe this is just my mind. But the 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:28.879 truth is is that when I was alone and I 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.040 was still, and I'm you know, I'm a writer, and 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.639 I was a pen and paper, my pen would say 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:35.959 this is not right. And that came from a quiet 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.360 voice that came from like a knowing voice, that came 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.159 from a calm, peaceful place inside of me, not a 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:45.760 racing mind. That's like, you know, there's a different energy 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.560 to anxiety and fear than there is to intuition and knowing, 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.879 and so the intuition and knowing would trigger the fear 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:55.960 of like, oh God, what are you going to do? 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:57.560 Everyone's going to be mad at you. What are people 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.199 going to think? You can't cancel your wedding? People worth 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.000 flying halfway across the world. You just spent so much 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.040 money on this. That was the fear that was reacting 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:08.719 to the knowing, And it was the fear that kept me, 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.760 you know, so concerned about what everyone else would think 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:16.680 and then not making choices that reflected my my authenticity. 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:20.480 And so the work for me as a like i'd 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:23.440 consider myself kind of a harmonizer and a people pleaser. 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:28.160 It became realizing that I have to tolerate people's disappointment 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.840 and disapproval of me, and that was going to be 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.399 my greatest edge, because so long as I was trying 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:37.320 to make everyone happy, I was only going to make 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.040