Speaker 1: Welcome back to I Do Part two. It's one of
Speaker 1: your hosts, Jenny Garth, jumping in today. I'm intrigued by
Speaker 1: the conversation I'm going to have today. Sometimes when people
Speaker 1: break up or divorce, it's complicated, and sometimes there's a
Speaker 1: third person involved. My guest today is an author, a speaker,
Speaker 1: and a teacher known for her books Choose Wonder over
Speaker 1: Worry and the Answers Are Within You. Her new memoir,
Speaker 1: Lovable is out now and I can't wait to talk
Speaker 1: to her about love, marriage, relationships, divine intervention, shame, guilt, healing, oh,
Speaker 1: all the things, so much, so much so, please welcome
Speaker 1: Amber Rat to the podcast. Hello, Hey, Amber's oh so exciting.
Speaker 1: You have a new book. The title of your new
Speaker 1: memoir is lovable, and that is a word that carries
Speaker 1: so much. So let's just start with this question. Have
Speaker 1: you always felt like you were lovable?
Speaker 2: I have not always felt lovable. But what's interesting is
Speaker 2: that I don't know if I would necessarily define it
Speaker 2: that way. I wouldn't have thought, oh, I don't know
Speaker 2: if I'm lovable. It was for me kind of this
Speaker 2: like unconscious story that was driving so much of my
Speaker 2: behavior and motivation without me even realizing it. I didn't
Speaker 2: realize that I was trying to accomplish all these things.
Speaker 2: And I had this ambition in my career because I
Speaker 2: felt unworthy of love. I didn't realize that I was
Speaker 2: going after a particular kind of unhealthy relationship because I
Speaker 2: didn't feel lovable, and I thought if I could convince
Speaker 2: them that I was worthy of love, then I would
Speaker 2: finally be enough. Though no, I haven't always felt lovable.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting all the ways it was sneaking up
Speaker 2: in my life without me even realizing it.
Speaker 1: Right right when you were younger, What were your examples
Speaker 1: of love when you were growing up, like things that
Speaker 1: you saw with your parents.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have healthy models of love.
Speaker 1: So happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my father actually left my mom and I when
Speaker 2: I was about two and a half and he got
Speaker 2: into a car accident when I was three. He got
Speaker 2: behind the wheel of a car under the influence his
Speaker 2: best friend, who was getting married the next day, said
Speaker 2: very sadly died in the crash. But my father had
Speaker 2: a traumatic brain injury, which my mom found out about
Speaker 2: on the news, and then he was in a hospital
Speaker 2: from when I was three until I was twelve, but he,
Speaker 2: you know, never regained full consciousness. But the reason I
Speaker 2: share all this is because I remember, you know, one
Speaker 2: of my I have two core memories of him. The
Speaker 2: first was when I was right before he got in
Speaker 2: the car ACXI and he called me and said, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry I haven't been around, but no matter what,
Speaker 2: I'll always love you. And that's one of my first
Speaker 2: core memories as a kid and my first memory of him.
Speaker 2: And then fast forward to I'm nine years old and
Speaker 2: I'm meeting him in the hospital and here i'm, you know,
Speaker 2: now a young girl who wants nothing more than to
Speaker 2: feel that sort of love and connection with her father.
Speaker 2: And so I go to meet him, and of course
Speaker 2: he can't meet me. He has a brain injury. But
Speaker 2: little me didn't fully understand, and so she like walks
Speaker 2: into the hospital room just like can you see me?
Speaker 2: Can you know me? Can you love me? And you know,
Speaker 2: he can't meet me there. But I end up making
Speaker 2: up a story that I tell my friends at the playground,
Speaker 2: which is that the moment I walked in the room,
Speaker 2: he knew my name. He said I love you to
Speaker 2: me and only me, and you know, I share the
Speaker 2: story in the book, because when I was reflecting on it,
Speaker 2: I realized that the you know, for little me, that
Speaker 2: reality was so painful to look at that I had
Speaker 2: to make up a story to make the experience.
Speaker 1: Okay, oh that breaks my heart. Man. What was your
Speaker 1: relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2: Like? My mom had me so young, she was twenty one.
Speaker 2: She you know, my mom was this like powerhouse entrepreneur.
Speaker 2: You know, she had all men working for her. She
Speaker 2: worked in the field of construction. She was like a
Speaker 2: badass woman. Was she a contractor?
Speaker 1: Was she an architect?
Speaker 2: What was she was more like a She was an
Speaker 2: interior like interior contractor. So she did all like interiors, flooring,
Speaker 2: window like everything inside of a developers in architects. But
Speaker 2: so like I had this like strong career figure who,
Speaker 2: like you know, couldn't figure out love, and so I
Speaker 2: had to a stepdad and I had you know, so
Speaker 2: my momels of love were kind of like, I don't
Speaker 2: want any of this. But the only thing I knew,
Speaker 2: the look out, of course, was like romantic comedies, these
Speaker 2: grandeur expressions of love. This must be what love is like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think my girls grew up believing that that's
Speaker 1: how real life was going to be too when it
Speaker 1: came to relationships and love stories. It's just not like that.
Speaker 2: No, it's just not like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean when I was younger, I saw a
Speaker 1: real love between my mom and dad. It wasn't always perfect,
Speaker 1: you know. My mom struggled with her insecurities and jealousy.
Speaker 1: And it was weird because my mom too was a
Speaker 1: very capable, strong entrepreneur out there with her own business
Speaker 1: and really very independent. But then I would see that
Speaker 1: other side of her that was modeling for me, jealousy,
Speaker 1: and also I was at the other end of a
Speaker 1: lot of messaging that things were supposed to look like
Speaker 1: they looked in Cinderella, like you were supposed to be
Speaker 1: put up on a pedestal and just revered and you know,
Speaker 1: cherished all the time. And it's not a very realistic,
Speaker 1: you know, example of what it's really going to be like.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think we all have we all come
Speaker 1: into like our time when we start having those relationships
Speaker 1: and learning about love independently and we have to figure
Speaker 1: it all out and wide through all the muck that
Speaker 1: we've been fed by society or our parents or whatever
Speaker 1: it was. Our examples but yeah, it's it's an interesting
Speaker 1: journey to find out, like, oh, that's not how it
Speaker 1: really works. Yeah, in your book, you paint the picture
Speaker 1: of a couple that looks on the outside like they
Speaker 1: have it all together right, but apparently behind closed doors,
Speaker 1: the relationship was not what you needed it to be,
Speaker 1: what it needed to be. It was sexless, there was
Speaker 1: a lack of emotion and that depth that comes with that.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of our audience can understand that
Speaker 1: and can relate because that's what happens, you know, like
Speaker 1: the decline of a marriage usually ends up with those characteristics.
Speaker 1: Why do you think as women we take on this
Speaker 1: sort of emotional burden to make everything look fine on
Speaker 1: the outside.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think partly because of you know,
Speaker 2: a it wasn't modeled to us what it's supposed to
Speaker 2: look like, of what true lasting, genuine love two people
Speaker 2: putting in the word, two people showing up consistently. And
Speaker 2: so I can speak for myself, you know, I look
Speaker 2: to the media, I look to movies of like, Okay,
Speaker 2: it looks like this, so you have to paint this picture.
Speaker 2: And so I think I felt pressure to make my
Speaker 2: life match that ideal and you know, I did that
Speaker 2: because I was trying to convince myself it was right.
Speaker 2: And I was afraid from the very beginning to listen
Speaker 2: to the inner, the quiet, persistent voice within me that
Speaker 2: was like, are you sure this is it? Are you
Speaker 2: sure it's okay that you don't really have sexual chemistry
Speaker 2: with him and he feels more like a friend than
Speaker 2: a lover. Are you sure that's okay? And I just
Speaker 2: pushed it down, pushed it down, pushed it down, because
Speaker 2: you know, I was in my first marriage, I was
Speaker 2: in my mid twenties. I thought this was what I
Speaker 2: was supposed to do. You know, women are supposed to
Speaker 2: now get married and do the thing and have the
Speaker 2: kids and yeah. So I think there was both the
Speaker 2: societal pressure to get it right combined with you know,
Speaker 2: not knowing how to face what was missing in the relationship,
Speaker 2: not knowing how to navigate those conversations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you feel the feelings, You feel the sort
Speaker 1: of emptiness or the area where you're like, where that
Speaker 1: question comes from? What is this? What it's really? Is
Speaker 1: this it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And it's probably very hard, I know, it's very hard
Speaker 1: to start really listening to that voice because what you
Speaker 1: want to do is shut it down and get rid
Speaker 1: of it, because I feel ashamed of those feelings. I
Speaker 1: can imagine you did too, Yeah, and.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh God, no, don't make me. This is
Speaker 2: going to be hard. I'm going to be able, even
Speaker 2: though my life doesn't feel quite right right now, having
Speaker 2: to address this and face that, Oh, don't make me
Speaker 2: do that, that's so uncomfortable. Yeah. So I think that's
Speaker 2: part of it as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, when I was going through a divorce,
Speaker 1: I really struggle with that. And I think there's, you know,
Speaker 1: that that element of how it's been portrayed in the
Speaker 1: press and how people know it, not you know, not
Speaker 1: just me, but like the world seeing it as one
Speaker 1: thing but me experiencing it as another. And then just
Speaker 1: the feeling not only of the sheer disappointment for the kids,
Speaker 1: but then because you didn't you didn't have kids with
Speaker 1: your first husband.
Speaker 2: I did not, thank God, Thank gosh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a whole nother mess to deal with. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember just feeling like I'm letting everyone down, not
Speaker 1: just me, not just my kids, not my family members,
Speaker 1: his family members, but the entire world. And that was
Speaker 1: just so much pressure Yeah, so much pressure. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: really open up in your book about your struggle for
Speaker 1: intimacy in your marriage, and I think that's really brave,
Speaker 1: because that too, can be really shrouded in shame and
Speaker 1: embarrassment and like there's something wrong with you. You know.
Speaker 1: I know that you talked about the fact that your
Speaker 1: partner would shut you down. Did that resonate with you
Speaker 1: as rejection? Because I've been in that situation, and for
Speaker 1: whatever the reason is, it's still there's still something inside
Speaker 1: of me that says, ouch, you know, is there something
Speaker 1: wrong with me?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I internalized it a lot, and even
Speaker 2: looking back at the relationship and all the parts of
Speaker 2: it that weren't working, I never pointed to the relationship
Speaker 2: as the problem. I was like, maybe I'm working too much.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not you know, getting enough downtime. Maybe we're
Speaker 2: not supposed to live in New York. Maybe I like women.
Speaker 2: Maybe you know. It was like all the questions, all
Speaker 2: the questions of self of like why am I not
Speaker 2: feeling intimacy, Why am I not feeling connected to my partner?
Speaker 2: Why isn't this working? Oh, I must be broken, I
Speaker 2: must be the problem. If I can just fix me
Speaker 2: if I can just fix us, if I can just
Speaker 2: It was like I was obsessively trying to figure it
Speaker 2: out instead of being like, oh, maybe we're not that compatible.
Speaker 1: Yeah you know, and you don't want to jump to
Speaker 1: that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah maybe you know we're more friends than we are lovers.
Speaker 2: Maybe we you know, maybe this isn't the right fit.
Speaker 2: That felt yeah, scarier to look at. And so it was,
Speaker 2: you know, I was always the issue, and in terms
Speaker 2: of seeing it, you know what's interesting. I think because
Speaker 2: of my background and because of some of my you know,
Speaker 2: my abandonment experiences as a young girl, I decided unconsciously
Speaker 2: to make safe choices in love and I never wanted
Speaker 2: to feel the longing or the desire for someone who
Speaker 2: couldn't meet me. And so I think I chose my
Speaker 2: ex because he was more of a friend, He was
Speaker 2: safe in some ways. It felt like a you know,
Speaker 2: a choice where I won't get hurt again. And because
Speaker 2: you know, the intimacy and that chemistry wasn't really there
Speaker 2: from the beginning, I kind of was like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: maybe we'll figure that out eventually. It's okay, Like I
Speaker 2: you know, feel safe year in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: So while it like, there were absolutely moments where it
Speaker 2: felt like a rejection and I felt like what am
Speaker 2: I doing wrong? But I also think I like knew
Speaker 2: deep down that I had I was like waking up
Speaker 2: to the fact that I had chosen a safe partner
Speaker 2: out of fear of being left again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can relate my first, uh, my first marriage,
Speaker 1: this is my third one. My first marriage was the
Speaker 1: same way, Like I felt like my father was he
Speaker 1: was really ill, and I felt like he was going
Speaker 1: to leave me, And I chose somebody that felt safe
Speaker 1: in certain ways, but I didn't even recognize the ways
Speaker 1: in which he wasn't safe at all. Yes, because I
Speaker 1: wanted All that mattered to me was that feeling of safety,
Speaker 1: that like big strong figure next to me, behind me,
Speaker 1: with me, you know. So it's definitely something I think
Speaker 1: that we make mistakes, you know, when we learn from
Speaker 1: and even like in the ebbs and flows of a
Speaker 1: real of a marriage, like there are days upon days
Speaker 1: when you're like is this right? Or like am I
Speaker 1: are we too? Are we just roommates?
Speaker 2: Are we?
Speaker 1: What's do we really connect? And then when you stop
Speaker 1: all of those spending thoughts and you start to focus
Speaker 1: on how can you make the relationship what you want?
Speaker 1: Like what work you can do from your side to
Speaker 1: see if those feelings change, those dynamics change. But I
Speaker 1: think it's natural to have all those doubts and all
Speaker 1: those questions because I don't know about you, but like,
Speaker 1: being with one person for the rest of my life
Speaker 1: is like that is that normal? Is that doable? Do
Speaker 1: you ever? Do you ever feel that way? Like were
Speaker 1: you ever like maybe just marriage isn't for me?
Speaker 2: You know that it wasn't. That wasn't what came up
Speaker 2: for me. Mine was more like how do I like,
Speaker 2: can we continue to grow together? And how do we
Speaker 2: continue to grow together? And fearing that we might grow apart.
Speaker 2: But I think I was the kind of person who
Speaker 2: like wanted marriage and wanted that, like the idea of
Speaker 2: a long term commitment was actually exciting to me. I
Speaker 2: might be more anxiously attached in the attachment styles. I
Speaker 2: was like, I want closeness, and it's more like what
Speaker 2: if it goes away? So I think that that's more
Speaker 2: what I've had to contend with. But I totally hear
Speaker 2: you on the like is this is it really one person?
Speaker 2: And you know and it's so funny because like marriages
Speaker 2: go through seasons, like I you know what, the story
Speaker 2: I tell my book is how I met my person
Speaker 2: well married, And that was what finally woke me up
Speaker 2: to realizing, wait a minute, I'm in a fake marriage.
Speaker 2: And I didn't even know I was how much I
Speaker 2: was pretending. But you know in this, you know, we've
Speaker 2: just had a in the in my second marriage, we've
Speaker 2: now you know, we've had a kid. We have a
Speaker 2: ten month old, and you know, it's not the like
Speaker 2: sexy long drives, romantic nights out. It's like logistics, who's
Speaker 2: doing this? You know, It's it's such a different season
Speaker 2: of the marriage. And there are moments where I'm like,
Speaker 2: are we ever going to get that like that you
Speaker 2: know back in Yeah? Right, But I feel like it
Speaker 2: like it's it's it deepened, it evolves into something different,
Speaker 2: and I think, are like, what we're doing now is
Speaker 2: how do we keep that connection alive in this season
Speaker 2: of like diapers and sleepless nights and all of the
Speaker 2: agitation that comes from not sleeping.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people could definitely relate to that if
Speaker 1: you if you have a puppy or if you have kids.
Speaker 1: You know, the focus is elsewhere, and it can really
Speaker 1: chisel away at those connections, those those intimate, sweet things
Speaker 1: that you shared when those responsibilities weren't there.
Speaker 2: Your childist is like, why do I like you again? No?
Speaker 2: I love you, but why do I like you right now? Right?
Speaker 1: I'm curious when you were talking about this, did you
Speaker 1: have that feeling with your first husband in the beginning.
Speaker 2: No, it was very different. It was, oh, he feels
Speaker 2: like a friend. I feel safe here. And I resonated
Speaker 2: so deeply to what you said where It's like I
Speaker 2: thought he was so safe and I didn't yet realize
Speaker 2: all the ways in which I felt unsafe and like that.
Speaker 2: You know, that chipping away came later. But what I
Speaker 2: am very grateful for is that was a nine year
Speaker 2: relationship and I think because I felt safe enough, it
Speaker 2: was actually a massive moment for my career, my creative expression.
Speaker 2: You know, I became an author, I wrote many books.
Speaker 2: I really like, found and discovered myself. I did deep work.
Speaker 2: I understood my wounding. I you know, learned about attachment trauma.
Speaker 2: You know, it's that relationship enabled me to do all
Speaker 2: of that, and I feel like kind of become the
Speaker 2: woman who was ready for extraordinary and safe love. And
Speaker 2: so in some ways that prepared me that relationship, as
Speaker 2: odd as that might sound.
Speaker 1: Was he doing work also while you were doing that?
Speaker 2: That was part of the challenge is he was not
Speaker 2: doing the same work, and so I felt like there
Speaker 2: was like a mismatch in depth and I, yeah, I
Speaker 2: just that was my biggest begging of him, like please,
Speaker 2: like we you look at you know, when you look
Speaker 2: at your stuff?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And you can't make your partner do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And sometimes they don't do it, They just won't ever
Speaker 1: do it. But sometimes something happens and they have that
Speaker 1: moment where they're like, oo, I see my part in this.
Speaker 1: I really need to figure out why I am What
Speaker 1: am I doing in this team? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I had a therapist say something really insightful to me.
Speaker 2: She was like, this is interesting. Who does he remind
Speaker 2: you of? Because it sounds like you've picked the same
Speaker 2: person who's familiar but new and you're trying to resolve
Speaker 2: the wounds of your past. Who are you always trying
Speaker 2: to change in your life? And I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: my mom, I know. So she's like, you're not saying, hey, husband,
Speaker 2: do the work, please work on yourself so that I
Speaker 2: you know, I'll I know you'll still be here to
Speaker 2: take care of me. You're saying, hey, mom, please do
Speaker 2: the work so I know you'll still be here to
Speaker 2: take care of me. And I realize like, oh, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, my husband is a surrogate
Speaker 2: for my How my mother wound?
Speaker 1: I hate that so much. It's so hard because that's
Speaker 1: the last person you really want to be thinking about
Speaker 1: when you're looking into the eyes of your spouse, like
Speaker 1: it's not good.
Speaker 2: No. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. I
Speaker 2: don't have mommy issues. And my therapist is like, uh huh,
Speaker 2: you're never trying to change or fixure of mom.
Speaker 1: Oh man, that I mean that at the core of
Speaker 1: any fraud, you know, you can't change or fix anyone.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's you're never going to get very far
Speaker 1: with that challenge. We hear from a lot of people
Speaker 1: on this podcast that they knew their marriage wasn't right
Speaker 1: long before it actually ended, whether it was you know,
Speaker 1: near the end, or even if it was before they
Speaker 1: walked down the aisle or as they're walking down the aisle.
Speaker 1: There's those thoughts, you know, I always wonder am I
Speaker 1: these thoughts that on, these questioning thoughts about like have
Speaker 1: I picked right? Is this forever?
Speaker 2: Is?
Speaker 1: Can I cohabitate with this person for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life? I always think, is that is that a
Speaker 1: real red flag? Is that an actual red flag? Or
Speaker 1: is that just my mind just trying to destroy something good?
Speaker 1: How did you, like, cause I'm sure you felt those
Speaker 1: feelings at times too, Like how did you deal with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was I was one who walked down the
Speaker 2: aisle thinking I don't know how long this is going
Speaker 2: to last? Oh god, it was, you know, But I
Speaker 2: was also like, but well through a great party.
Speaker 1: You see.
Speaker 2: If that sounds like, that's how I rationalize it in
Speaker 2: the moment, you know. I think my struggle discerning between
Speaker 2: intuition and fear is also part of what kept me
Speaker 2: in it, because I kept saying, Oh, maybe this is
Speaker 2: just fear, Maybe this is just my mind. But the
Speaker 2: truth is is that when I was alone and I
Speaker 2: was still, and I'm you know, I'm a writer, and
Speaker 2: I was a pen and paper, my pen would say
Speaker 2: this is not right. And that came from a quiet
Speaker 2: voice that came from like a knowing voice, that came
Speaker 2: from a calm, peaceful place inside of me, not a
Speaker 2: racing mind. That's like, you know, there's a different energy
Speaker 2: to anxiety and fear than there is to intuition and knowing,
Speaker 2: and so the intuition and knowing would trigger the fear
Speaker 2: of like, oh God, what are you going to do?
Speaker 2: Everyone's going to be mad at you. What are people
Speaker 2: going to think? You can't cancel your wedding? People worth
Speaker 2: flying halfway across the world. You just spent so much
Speaker 2: money on this. That was the fear that was reacting
Speaker 2: to the knowing, And it was the fear that kept me,
Speaker 2: you know, so concerned about what everyone else would think
Speaker 2: and then not making choices that reflected my my authenticity.
Speaker 2: And so the work for me as a like i'd
Speaker 2: consider myself kind of a harmonizer and a people pleaser.
Speaker 2: It became realizing that I have to tolerate people's disappointment
Speaker 2: and disapproval of me, and that was going to be
Speaker 2: my greatest edge, because so long as I was trying
Speaker 2: to make everyone happy, I was only going to make
Speaker 2: myself unhappy. If I was just trying not to disappoint everyone,
Speaker 2: I was going to continue to have to live with
Speaker 2: my own disappointment. So I realized I had to instead
Speaker 2: of like tolerating feeling disconnected in my marriage or like
Speaker 2: I'm unfulfilled, I was going to have to tolerate the
Speaker 2: discomfort of other people being disappointed. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: once I knew the knowing was the knowing, it wasn't
Speaker 2: the trubble for me wasn't so much hearing the knowing,
Speaker 2: it was actually acting.
Speaker 1: On it, right, because he carried around the knowing for
Speaker 1: a while.
Speaker 2: Care out of the knowing for a while, and I
Speaker 2: was really like, just people, this is going to hurt
Speaker 2: someone that I do care about, and this is gonna
Speaker 2: upset people, and people are gonna have a lot of
Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings about it. And you know, our nervous
Speaker 2: system can only tolerate so much. And so I think
Speaker 2: part of why we stay as long as we do
Speaker 2: is that our nervous system doesn't have doesn't yet have
Speaker 2: the capacity to handle, you know, canceling, let's see, canceling
Speaker 2: a wedding, spending all that money, doing all those things,
Speaker 2: And so we stay because it's actually more comfortable to
Speaker 2: stay than it is to face the hard but true choice.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure, I mean I felt that way
Speaker 1: for sure with my first marriage when it was over
Speaker 1: very short lived marriage, by the way, when I knew
Speaker 1: that it wasn't right, and then I started moving in
Speaker 1: that direction. And then I met someone else and that
Speaker 1: made it a lot more clear. And that's you know,
Speaker 1: that always happens when you meet someone else in a
Speaker 1: breakup or relationship ending. It's a lot easier because you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I can focus on that, and that feels so good.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to that, you know, instead of
Speaker 1: thinking about the earthquake that you just you know, the
Speaker 1: big show that just exploded in your wake. And I
Speaker 1: remember feeling like the worst feeling of knowing that I
Speaker 1: was hurting someone ultimately, Yeah, and that does that can
Speaker 1: keep you right where you are, because that is a
Speaker 1: very big I choose me moment, and it's it sounds
Speaker 1: selfish m hm. It looks to other people and even
Speaker 1: internally like grappling with is this the most selfish thing
Speaker 1: I've ever done? Yeah, it's hard to like you got
Speaker 1: to just love yourself through that, I guess, and just
Speaker 1: keep you know, reminding yourself that this is the right
Speaker 1: choice for me. Yeah, because it would be so easy
Speaker 1: to just give into those easy, comfortable thoughts like you
Speaker 1: were saying, Yeah, do you think do you think about
Speaker 1: what your life would have been like had you not
Speaker 1: met your your soulmate John? I mean, do you think
Speaker 1: that you would still be in that marriage or do
Speaker 1: you think that it would have ended because of a
Speaker 1: different situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think about that question a lot. In the
Speaker 2: reason is I don't know. I would like to think
Speaker 2: that something would have been, you know, the catalyst or
Speaker 2: the mirror to have me be like, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: I don't know what that would have been. And I
Speaker 2: felt a lot of shame about the fact that I had.
Speaker 2: It required me to meet someone else to leave. Why
Speaker 2: Why could I just garner the strength within myself and
Speaker 2: be like bye? But you know, for whatever reason, in
Speaker 2: the way that my story wanted to unfold, it required
Speaker 2: me to meet someone else. And you know, we can't
Speaker 2: really control how things happen. I think we can control
Speaker 2: how I respond to them. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: even though that may have not been how I would
Speaker 2: have loved for it to play out, the one thing
Speaker 2: that I did do is I was very honest and transparent.
Speaker 2: Pretty immediately the night that I met John, I and
Speaker 2: they left. I turned to my then husband. I said
Speaker 2: to him, I just met a soulmate. And I wasn't thinking.
Speaker 1: You said, I just met a soulmate. I just met
Speaker 1: a soul may not my soulmate.
Speaker 2: Not my soul may I just sul and I wasn't, Like, honestly,
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking in that moment, and I'm going to like
Speaker 2: blow everything up and leave you. And like I was
Speaker 2: just like the connection was so undeniable. I just said
Speaker 2: to him, like, I just met a soulnate.
Speaker 1: And didn't he acknowledge it too?
Speaker 2: He said, I saw, and that was beautiful to witness.
Speaker 2: So it was you know, I'm a big believer that
Speaker 2: saying speaking the truth might be the hardest thing, but
Speaker 2: it's even the kindest thing, even if we think, oh gosh,
Speaker 2: I'm a terrible person. I am so selfish. I can't
Speaker 2: believe I'm going to hurt this person that I care about.
Speaker 2: But a girlfriend of mine, she said to me, as
Speaker 2: I was going through this, and I called her, I
Speaker 2: was like, God, I don't sort intendity. I was freaking out,
Speaker 2: and she was like, listen, like it sounds like you're
Speaker 2: coming to terms with the fact that the story of
Speaker 2: your relationship doesn't match the reality of it. No one
Speaker 2: benefits from someone being half in on a relationship, and
Speaker 2: I believe liberation is a two way street. So if
Speaker 2: you're self abandoning to the being the relationship, chances are
Speaker 2: he's self abandoning. And it's like you're, you know, feeling trapped,
Speaker 2: He's probably also feeling trapped. And so I really like
Speaker 2: leaned into like, I'm just gonna name and finally say
Speaker 2: the things that we haven't been saying. And I don't
Speaker 2: know how what's going to happen, but I trust that
Speaker 2: if I at least speak what's true, what's meant to
Speaker 2: be will be.
Speaker 1: So did that happen right after you met John?
Speaker 2: The I met a soulmate happen right after I met John?
Speaker 2: And then it was just kind of like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: my initial thinking was I'm not going to be with
Speaker 2: John in this lifetime, maybe in another life. So I'm
Speaker 2: going to make him my creative partner in this project
Speaker 2: that I'm doing and brought him on to this land
Speaker 2: project where you know you're going to detail on this
Speaker 2: in the book without getting without rambling too much. I
Speaker 2: quickly realized, wait that he's not just going to be
Speaker 2: my creative partner. There's a lot more here.
Speaker 1: Wait what did he Wait? What did he awaken in
Speaker 1: you that you weren't feeling in your marriage? But what
Speaker 1: was the feeling? How did you know I felt home
Speaker 1: with him?
Speaker 2: Would be the feeling like it was? It wasn't like
Speaker 2: this like oh my god, I want you, it's like
Speaker 2: so fire. It was just like this peace, this calm,
Speaker 2: this like feeling of home, but also like feeling of
Speaker 2: a liveness. And it was I think just the way
Speaker 2: I felt with him was just like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: what you know. And it's crazy to think that I
Speaker 2: was a thirty five year old woman and hadn't really
Speaker 2: experienced like true romantic connection that felt honest and real
Speaker 2: and not like there were games. It was just like like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is this is what real connection is supposed to
Speaker 2: feel like was the feeling.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I don't think it's that rare in this day
Speaker 1: and age to be in your thirties and have not
Speaker 1: experienced that feeling. And that's scary in itself.
Speaker 2: It is scary. Yeah. So I was just like, oh,
Speaker 2: this this is what love is. This is what love
Speaker 2: feels like. And even though I barely know this person.
Speaker 2: In my mind was like, you're insane, he's a stranger.
Speaker 2: But my body was like, no, this is this is love,
Speaker 2: this is connection, this is true and I can't deny
Speaker 2: that and I don't want to.
Speaker 1: So how long was it before you ended up just
Speaker 1: you know, exiting your marriage knowing that that is what
Speaker 1: had to be done. And what was that time in
Speaker 1: the interim, like especially now working with him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was about from the day I met John
Speaker 2: four weeks later my husband and I closed our marriage,
Speaker 2: and that in between time was like, I mean, it was.
Speaker 2: It was crazy because you know, John and I are
Speaker 2: first like, Okay, let's collaborate. Okay, let's name what this
Speaker 2: connection is. Okay, you're feeling the same thing I'm feeling. Okay,
Speaker 2: go tell husband, husband, I'm I'm getting feelings. And he's like, no, no,
Speaker 2: you're getting feelings. You think I'm an idiot. I know
Speaker 2: I can see. But also this has actually kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, been helpful because now that he's meeting your
Speaker 2: emotional needs, I have all this time to go do
Speaker 2: all these work things I've been wanting to be focused on.
Speaker 2: So it was like, I mean, honestly, it felt like
Speaker 2: I was in a movie and I kept like looking
Speaker 2: for cameras. I was like, is Ashton Kutcher gonna like
Speaker 2: jump out and tell me that I'm punked? Is like? What? Like?
Speaker 2: Is this like? It was? It was the most bizarre
Speaker 2: thing because we were kind of all in on it
Speaker 2: together and even acknowledging like no one would understand this
Speaker 2: weird thing that we're all doing together, which is like
Speaker 2: we the three of us happened to meet and maybe
Speaker 2: like and I didn't know. I was like, maybe John's
Speaker 2: a catalyst for our marriage to blow up but I
Speaker 2: never see John again, or maybe John's the blow up
Speaker 2: of my life. We're gonna find out.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, but I like an up ended feeling.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine. So four weeks, though, four weeks is
Speaker 1: doable like that, I'm glad it was just four ways
Speaker 1: and didn't go further. Yeah, that sounds like it would
Speaker 1: just be ripping me apart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot, but
Speaker 2: it was also like, yeah, as a writer, I was
Speaker 2: just like I'm taking notes. I han't here, and I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna keep taking notes. It was crazy.
Speaker 1: You're like outside looking in at your life. Happening right
Speaker 1: in real time. Do you believe in divine intervention like fate?
Speaker 1: Like did this happen because of that?
Speaker 2: You know? I will say the experience made me believe
Speaker 2: in fate more. And there were strange coincidences. You know,
Speaker 2: my father visits me as a monarch butterfly and John's
Speaker 2: father visits him as a ladybug, and like we kept
Speaker 2: like it was monarch butterflies were visiting, ladybugs are visiting.
Speaker 2: Shooting stars were happening in our presence. It felt like
Speaker 2: the universe was like, hello, wake up and pay attention.
Speaker 2: You haven't been listening. So I'm gonna be over the
Speaker 2: top to kind of I'm going to drop another shooting
Speaker 2: star in front of you and John so that you
Speaker 2: guys are like, okay. So it was it was I
Speaker 2: believed that I do believe that we were meant to meet.
Speaker 2: And even what I said to John as it was
Speaker 2: all going down, as crazy as this might sound, I
Speaker 2: was like, I feel like our dads met in SpiritLand
Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it, and they've been
Speaker 2: working to bring us together. Because it did feel like
Speaker 2: super divine, super faded and like and how it all
Speaker 2: unfolded it. It felt truly meant to be, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't. I feel like I'm not the
Speaker 2: words to describe it, but it did feel destined.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you're in that open place where you're
Speaker 1: experiencing new feelings and it's kind of cracking you open,
Speaker 1: then I think you see things the signs so much
Speaker 1: more clearly and easily. Absolutely, the shooting stars and the butterflies. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm one of those people that's like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: all the signs I'm seeing, all the signs that this
Speaker 1: is the direction I should go, But maybe it's not.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just a butterfly coming bye. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: could we put so much meaning on it? You know,
Speaker 1: because we want to be supported in our decision, and
Speaker 1: we'll find the ways that we need so that we
Speaker 1: do make the right decision, whether it's fate or divine
Speaker 1: intervention or just a Monday.
Speaker 2: You know, I do find I do, like, regardless of
Speaker 2: when it meant. When I'm looking for signs, it usually
Speaker 2: means I know something in my knowing and intuition and
Speaker 2: I'm looking for someone else to tell me what I
Speaker 2: know to be true is okay. So in some ways,
Speaker 2: it was like I saw a butterfly. It means I'm
Speaker 2: on the right path because I because I know I'm
Speaker 2: on the right path. But maybe I shouldn't be on
Speaker 2: the right path because society, your expectations, would tell me
Speaker 2: I'm on the wrong path. And then I'm doing a
Speaker 2: bad thing. But you know, maybe the butterfly tells me
Speaker 2: I'm actually doing the self honoring thing. I'm gonna believe
Speaker 2: I'm doing this self onforting thing.
Speaker 1: How did you heal from those feelings of oh, I'm
Speaker 1: doing a bad thing?
Speaker 2: There was a lot of you know, what was interesting
Speaker 2: is that leaving the marriage was one thing, but then
Speaker 2: here I was. So six weeks after I met John,
Speaker 2: I packed my things, I arrived in la where he
Speaker 2: was living, and we'd committed our lives to each other,
Speaker 2: and we had not yet kissed.
Speaker 1: And I was risky, very risky.
Speaker 2: I was on the other side of a nine year
Speaker 2: pretty much sexless relationship, feeling very disconnected from that part
Speaker 2: of myself, and John was not disconnected from that part
Speaker 2: of himself. And so then all the stuff, all the
Speaker 2: insecurities that I wasn't expecting, all the abandonment, anxieties that
Speaker 2: had me be like, oh, this is why I chose
Speaker 2: a safe relationships because I didn't want to have to
Speaker 2: feel all of this and feel like a crazy person.
Speaker 2: All of that came to the surface, and so that
Speaker 2: brought me to therapy, and therapy was both like unpacking
Speaker 2: kind of this childhood you know, this childhood trauma combined
Speaker 2: with this like good girl conditioning around, Oh this is bad. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know what you did with selfish you you have
Speaker 2: to hurt yourself so you don't hurt another, be the
Speaker 2: nice person, don't rock the boat. You know. All of
Speaker 2: that really like came to a head once John and
Speaker 2: I would were together, which, as you can imagine, was
Speaker 2: like really exciting for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm sure that was just a wild time in
Speaker 1: your life too, of just all those things coming out
Speaker 1: and opening up and those realizations but being caught up
Speaker 1: in this love story. Yeah, you've said that journaling is
Speaker 1: a big part of your recovery and your healing. Tell
Speaker 1: us how you you are so into journaling, you do
Speaker 1: it with other people, you provide that service, or how
Speaker 1: does that work with your journaling?
Speaker 2: Journaling has been I've been journaling since I was a kid.
Speaker 2: But I also lead writing workshops, journaling and workshops to
Speaker 2: help people to really create that practice with themselves. But
Speaker 2: journaling for me is that safe place where I can
Speaker 2: be as honest and as I possibly can, so that
Speaker 2: I can see myself and know myself and know what
Speaker 2: I think and know what I feel. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: as a lot of as I was really waking up
Speaker 2: to like oh I'm actually really unhappy in this marriage,
Speaker 2: it became the place to just like name what was true.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. I
Speaker 2: haven't felt you know, like whatever that is that the
Speaker 2: journal is that place for you. And yeah, questions can
Speaker 2: be helpful for people. So some questions that I suggest
Speaker 2: are like what truth am I afraid to say out loud?
Speaker 2: And why or where am I disappointing myself so I
Speaker 2: don't have to disappoint another.
Speaker 1: Those will get you in there, still in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just like what's alive in me? You know?
Speaker 2: Can it can be if you want. It depends on
Speaker 2: like how deep you and how quick you know what's
Speaker 2: a lie to me? And so, you know, I find
Speaker 2: that like being brave on the page helps me be
Speaker 2: braver in real life.
Speaker 1: Do you go back and read old journals sometimes?
Speaker 2: You know? And I love Julia Cameron The Artist's Way.
Speaker 2: You know, she says three stream of consciousness pages every
Speaker 2: morning just to like get stuff, get the gunk out
Speaker 2: of the way, and she tells you not to read
Speaker 2: your pages, but you know, I sometimes go back. I
Speaker 2: think it's it can be helpful. Or as I was
Speaker 2: writing this book, I went back on my journalism a
Speaker 2: lot because it was like the I was helped me
Speaker 2: like have the pulse of what I was really feeling.
Speaker 2: So sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember I just wasn't ready and I would
Speaker 1: sort of kind of take a peek in there and
Speaker 1: then I just feel bad about myself all over again
Speaker 1: for whatever the issue was, whatever it was that I
Speaker 1: was working on. And it wasn't until I was like
Speaker 1: in my fifties that I was let me crack open
Speaker 1: those journals and really get to know that person at
Speaker 1: that point in her life. And it's it's incredibly telling,
Speaker 1: you know. And you do learn a lot about yourself
Speaker 1: through journaling, absolutely, yeah, and just get it out, get
Speaker 1: it out of your head. A lot of people are
Speaker 1: going to have different opinions and they're going to understand
Speaker 1: the situation differently, and you know, some people don't understand it.
Speaker 1: What do you want your readers to take away from
Speaker 1: your book?
Speaker 2: I want them to listen to the quiet voice within
Speaker 2: them that knows and make their life a reflection of
Speaker 2: that knowing, and whether they're in a job that doesn't
Speaker 2: that they feel trapped in, or if there's a relationship
Speaker 2: they've outgrown friendship love. You know, I feel like we
Speaker 2: all get to we often get to a moment in
Speaker 2: our lives where we realize like, ooh, this isn't quite it,
Speaker 2: and I have been ignoring myself or I've been abandoning myself,
Speaker 2: or I haven't been honoring myself because I'm afraid mostly
Speaker 2: of what other people are going to think. And so really,
Speaker 2: I hope the book is an imation to like come
Speaker 2: back home to self and to honor what you know
Speaker 2: to be true and to let your life be a
Speaker 2: reflection of that. So like, yes, the book is this
Speaker 2: like love story, but really the love story was just
Speaker 2: a vehicle for this self love journey for me and
Speaker 2: ultimately the self liberation story. So I hope people it's
Speaker 2: a vehicle for people to liberate themselves from the cages
Speaker 2: of their own making.
Speaker 1: I love that. Wow, Perfect Love Well is out now.
Speaker 1: You can see Amber Thursday, August fourteenth at Zibbi's Bookshop
Speaker 1: in Santa Monica and check out her website for other
Speaker 1: stops she'll be making on our book tour. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Amber for being so vulnerable and bringing you know,
Speaker 1: awareness to something that is I'm scary. It's scary to
Speaker 1: come out and be so honest about that. Yeah, thank you,
Speaker 1: This is much, but it's beautiful that you did.
Speaker 2: Thank you think.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Take care.
Speaker 1: Are you working on finding yourself post divorce? Need some
Speaker 1: advice on how to fe figure out your new life?
Speaker 1: Call us or email us. All the info is in
Speaker 1: the show notes, follow us on the socials. Make sure
Speaker 1: to rate and review the podcast. All the things you
Speaker 1: know you're supposed to do with a podcast, I do
Speaker 1: Part two an iHeartRadio podcasts where falling in love is
Speaker 1: the main objective.