1 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: Welcome back to I Do Part two. It's one of 2 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: your hosts, Jenny Garth, jumping in today. I'm intrigued by 3 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: the conversation I'm going to have today. Sometimes when people 4 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: break up or divorce, it's complicated, and sometimes there's a 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: third person involved. My guest today is an author, a speaker, 6 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: and a teacher known for her books Choose Wonder over 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: Worry and the Answers Are Within You. Her new memoir, 8 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,639 Speaker 1: Lovable is out now and I can't wait to talk 9 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: to her about love, marriage, relationships, divine intervention, shame, guilt, healing, oh, 10 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: all the things, so much, so much so, please welcome 11 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: Amber Rat to the podcast. Hello, Hey, Amber's oh so exciting. 12 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: You have a new book. The title of your new 13 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: memoir is lovable, and that is a word that carries 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: so much. So let's just start with this question. Have 15 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: you always felt like you were lovable? 16 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: I have not always felt lovable. But what's interesting is 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: that I don't know if I would necessarily define it 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: that way. I wouldn't have thought, oh, I don't know 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: if I'm lovable. It was for me kind of this 20 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: like unconscious story that was driving so much of my 21 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: behavior and motivation without me even realizing it. I didn't 22 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: realize that I was trying to accomplish all these things. 23 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: And I had this ambition in my career because I 24 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: felt unworthy of love. I didn't realize that I was 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: going after a particular kind of unhealthy relationship because I 26 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: didn't feel lovable, and I thought if I could convince 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: them that I was worthy of love, then I would 28 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: finally be enough. Though no, I haven't always felt lovable. 29 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: But it's interesting all the ways it was sneaking up 30 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: in my life without me even realizing it. 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: Right right when you were younger, What were your examples 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: of love when you were growing up, like things that 33 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: you saw with your parents. 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have healthy models of love. 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: So happens. 36 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, my father actually left my mom and I when 37 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: I was about two and a half and he got 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: into a car accident when I was three. He got 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: behind the wheel of a car under the influence his 40 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 2: best friend, who was getting married the next day, said 41 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 2: very sadly died in the crash. But my father had 42 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: a traumatic brain injury, which my mom found out about 43 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: on the news, and then he was in a hospital 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: from when I was three until I was twelve, but he, 45 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: you know, never regained full consciousness. But the reason I 46 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: share all this is because I remember, you know, one 47 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: of my I have two core memories of him. The 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: first was when I was right before he got in 49 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: the car ACXI and he called me and said, you know, 50 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: I'm sorry I haven't been around, but no matter what, 51 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: I'll always love you. And that's one of my first 52 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 2: core memories as a kid and my first memory of him. 53 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: And then fast forward to I'm nine years old and 54 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: I'm meeting him in the hospital and here i'm, you know, 55 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: now a young girl who wants nothing more than to 56 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 2: feel that sort of love and connection with her father. 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: And so I go to meet him, and of course 58 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: he can't meet me. He has a brain injury. But 59 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: little me didn't fully understand, and so she like walks 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: into the hospital room just like can you see me? 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: Can you know me? Can you love me? And you know, 62 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: he can't meet me there. But I end up making 63 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: up a story that I tell my friends at the playground, 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 2: which is that the moment I walked in the room, 65 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: he knew my name. He said I love you to 66 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: me and only me, and you know, I share the 67 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: story in the book, because when I was reflecting on it, 68 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: I realized that the you know, for little me, that 69 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: reality was so painful to look at that I had 70 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: to make up a story to make the experience. 71 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: Okay, oh that breaks my heart. Man. What was your 72 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: relationship with your mom? 73 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: Like? My mom had me so young, she was twenty one. 74 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: She you know, my mom was this like powerhouse entrepreneur. 75 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: You know, she had all men working for her. She 76 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: worked in the field of construction. She was like a 77 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: badass woman. Was she a contractor? 78 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Was she an architect? 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: What was she was more like a She was an 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: interior like interior contractor. So she did all like interiors, flooring, 81 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: window like everything inside of a developers in architects. But 82 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: so like I had this like strong career figure who, 83 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: like you know, couldn't figure out love, and so I 84 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: had to a stepdad and I had you know, so 85 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: my momels of love were kind of like, I don't 86 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: want any of this. But the only thing I knew, 87 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: the look out, of course, was like romantic comedies, these 88 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: grandeur expressions of love. This must be what love is like. 89 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think my girls grew up believing that that's 90 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: how real life was going to be too when it 91 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: came to relationships and love stories. It's just not like that. 92 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: No, it's just not like that. 93 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean when I was younger, I saw a 94 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: real love between my mom and dad. It wasn't always perfect, 95 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: you know. My mom struggled with her insecurities and jealousy. 96 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: And it was weird because my mom too was a 97 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: very capable, strong entrepreneur out there with her own business 98 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: and really very independent. But then I would see that 99 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: other side of her that was modeling for me, jealousy, 100 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: and also I was at the other end of a 101 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: lot of messaging that things were supposed to look like 102 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: they looked in Cinderella, like you were supposed to be 103 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: put up on a pedestal and just revered and you know, 104 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: cherished all the time. And it's not a very realistic, 105 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, example of what it's really going to be like. 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think we all have we all come 107 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: into like our time when we start having those relationships 108 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: and learning about love independently and we have to figure 109 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: it all out and wide through all the muck that 110 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: we've been fed by society or our parents or whatever 111 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: it was. Our examples but yeah, it's it's an interesting 112 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: journey to find out, like, oh, that's not how it 113 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: really works. Yeah, in your book, you paint the picture 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: of a couple that looks on the outside like they 115 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: have it all together right, but apparently behind closed doors, 116 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: the relationship was not what you needed it to be, 117 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: what it needed to be. It was sexless, there was 118 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: a lack of emotion and that depth that comes with that. 119 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: I think a lot of our audience can understand that 120 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: and can relate because that's what happens, you know, like 121 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: the decline of a marriage usually ends up with those characteristics. 122 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: Why do you think as women we take on this 123 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: sort of emotional burden to make everything look fine on 124 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: the outside. 125 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think partly because of you know, 126 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: a it wasn't modeled to us what it's supposed to 127 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: look like, of what true lasting, genuine love two people 128 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: putting in the word, two people showing up consistently. And 129 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: so I can speak for myself, you know, I look 130 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: to the media, I look to movies of like, Okay, 131 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: it looks like this, so you have to paint this picture. 132 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: And so I think I felt pressure to make my 133 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: life match that ideal and you know, I did that 134 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: because I was trying to convince myself it was right. 135 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: And I was afraid from the very beginning to listen 136 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: to the inner, the quiet, persistent voice within me that 137 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: was like, are you sure this is it? Are you 138 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: sure it's okay that you don't really have sexual chemistry 139 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: with him and he feels more like a friend than 140 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: a lover. Are you sure that's okay? And I just 141 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: pushed it down, pushed it down, pushed it down, because 142 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: you know, I was in my first marriage, I was 143 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: in my mid twenties. I thought this was what I 144 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: was supposed to do. You know, women are supposed to 145 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: now get married and do the thing and have the 146 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 2: kids and yeah. So I think there was both the 147 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: societal pressure to get it right combined with you know, 148 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: not knowing how to face what was missing in the relationship, 149 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 2: not knowing how to navigate those conversations. 150 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you feel the feelings, You feel the sort 151 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: of emptiness or the area where you're like, where that 152 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: question comes from? What is this? What it's really? Is 153 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: this it? 154 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 155 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: And it's probably very hard, I know, it's very hard 156 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: to start really listening to that voice because what you 157 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: want to do is shut it down and get rid 158 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: of it, because I feel ashamed of those feelings. I 159 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: can imagine you did too, Yeah, and. 160 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: It's like, oh God, no, don't make me. This is 161 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: going to be hard. I'm going to be able, even 162 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: though my life doesn't feel quite right right now, having 163 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: to address this and face that, Oh, don't make me 164 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: do that, that's so uncomfortable. Yeah. So I think that's 165 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: part of it as well. 166 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: I mean, for me, when I was going through a divorce, 167 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: I really struggle with that. And I think there's, you know, 168 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: that that element of how it's been portrayed in the 169 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: press and how people know it, not you know, not 170 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: just me, but like the world seeing it as one 171 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: thing but me experiencing it as another. And then just 172 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: the feeling not only of the sheer disappointment for the kids, 173 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: but then because you didn't you didn't have kids with 174 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: your first husband. 175 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: I did not, thank God, Thank gosh. 176 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a whole nother mess to deal with. But yeah, 177 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: I remember just feeling like I'm letting everyone down, not 178 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: just me, not just my kids, not my family members, 179 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: his family members, but the entire world. And that was 180 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: just so much pressure Yeah, so much pressure. Yeah, you 181 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: really open up in your book about your struggle for 182 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: intimacy in your marriage, and I think that's really brave, 183 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: because that too, can be really shrouded in shame and 184 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: embarrassment and like there's something wrong with you. You know. 185 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: I know that you talked about the fact that your 186 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: partner would shut you down. Did that resonate with you 187 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: as rejection? Because I've been in that situation, and for 188 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: whatever the reason is, it's still there's still something inside 189 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: of me that says, ouch, you know, is there something 190 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: wrong with me? 191 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I internalized it a lot, and even 192 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: looking back at the relationship and all the parts of 193 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: it that weren't working, I never pointed to the relationship 194 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 2: as the problem. I was like, maybe I'm working too much. 195 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not you know, getting enough downtime. Maybe we're 196 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: not supposed to live in New York. Maybe I like women. 197 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: Maybe you know. It was like all the questions, all 198 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: the questions of self of like why am I not 199 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: feeling intimacy, Why am I not feeling connected to my partner? 200 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: Why isn't this working? Oh, I must be broken, I 201 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 2: must be the problem. If I can just fix me 202 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: if I can just fix us, if I can just 203 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: It was like I was obsessively trying to figure it 204 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: out instead of being like, oh, maybe we're not that compatible. 205 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: Yeah you know, and you don't want to jump to 206 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: that one. 207 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: Yeah maybe you know we're more friends than we are lovers. 208 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: Maybe we you know, maybe this isn't the right fit. 209 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: That felt yeah, scarier to look at. And so it was, 210 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: you know, I was always the issue, and in terms 211 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: of seeing it, you know what's interesting. I think because 212 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: of my background and because of some of my you know, 213 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: my abandonment experiences as a young girl, I decided unconsciously 214 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: to make safe choices in love and I never wanted 215 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 2: to feel the longing or the desire for someone who 216 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 2: couldn't meet me. And so I think I chose my 217 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: ex because he was more of a friend, He was 218 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: safe in some ways. It felt like a you know, 219 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: a choice where I won't get hurt again. And because 220 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: you know, the intimacy and that chemistry wasn't really there 221 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: from the beginning, I kind of was like, oh, well, 222 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 2: maybe we'll figure that out eventually. It's okay, Like I 223 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: you know, feel safe year in a lot of ways, 224 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: So while it like, there were absolutely moments where it 225 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: felt like a rejection and I felt like what am 226 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: I doing wrong? But I also think I like knew 227 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: deep down that I had I was like waking up 228 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: to the fact that I had chosen a safe partner 229 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: out of fear of being left again. 230 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can relate my first, uh, my first marriage, 231 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: this is my third one. My first marriage was the 232 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: same way, Like I felt like my father was he 233 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: was really ill, and I felt like he was going 234 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: to leave me, And I chose somebody that felt safe 235 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: in certain ways, but I didn't even recognize the ways 236 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: in which he wasn't safe at all. Yes, because I 237 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: wanted All that mattered to me was that feeling of safety, 238 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: that like big strong figure next to me, behind me, 239 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: with me, you know. So it's definitely something I think 240 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: that we make mistakes, you know, when we learn from 241 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: and even like in the ebbs and flows of a 242 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: real of a marriage, like there are days upon days 243 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: when you're like is this right? Or like am I 244 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: are we too? Are we just roommates? 245 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: Are we? 246 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: What's do we really connect? And then when you stop 247 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: all of those spending thoughts and you start to focus 248 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: on how can you make the relationship what you want? 249 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: Like what work you can do from your side to 250 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: see if those feelings change, those dynamics change. But I 251 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: think it's natural to have all those doubts and all 252 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: those questions because I don't know about you, but like, 253 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: being with one person for the rest of my life 254 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: is like that is that normal? Is that doable? Do 255 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: you ever? Do you ever feel that way? Like were 256 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: you ever like maybe just marriage isn't for me? 257 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: You know that it wasn't. That wasn't what came up 258 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: for me. Mine was more like how do I like, 259 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: can we continue to grow together? And how do we 260 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: continue to grow together? And fearing that we might grow apart. 261 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: But I think I was the kind of person who 262 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: like wanted marriage and wanted that, like the idea of 263 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: a long term commitment was actually exciting to me. I 264 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: might be more anxiously attached in the attachment styles. I 265 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: was like, I want closeness, and it's more like what 266 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: if it goes away? So I think that that's more 267 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: what I've had to contend with. But I totally hear 268 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: you on the like is this is it really one person? 269 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: And you know and it's so funny because like marriages 270 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: go through seasons, like I you know what, the story 271 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: I tell my book is how I met my person 272 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 2: well married, And that was what finally woke me up 273 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 2: to realizing, wait a minute, I'm in a fake marriage. 274 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: And I didn't even know I was how much I 275 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: was pretending. But you know in this, you know, we've 276 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: just had a in the in my second marriage, we've 277 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: now you know, we've had a kid. We have a 278 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: ten month old, and you know, it's not the like 279 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: sexy long drives, romantic nights out. It's like logistics, who's 280 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: doing this? You know, It's it's such a different season 281 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: of the marriage. And there are moments where I'm like, 282 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: are we ever going to get that like that you 283 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: know back in Yeah? Right, But I feel like it 284 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: like it's it's it deepened, it evolves into something different, 285 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 2: and I think, are like, what we're doing now is 286 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: how do we keep that connection alive in this season 287 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: of like diapers and sleepless nights and all of the 288 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: agitation that comes from not sleeping. 289 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean people could definitely relate to that if 290 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: you if you have a puppy or if you have kids. 291 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: You know, the focus is elsewhere, and it can really 292 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: chisel away at those connections, those those intimate, sweet things 293 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: that you shared when those responsibilities weren't there. 294 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: Your childist is like, why do I like you again? No? 295 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: I love you, but why do I like you right now? Right? 296 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: I'm curious when you were talking about this, did you 297 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: have that feeling with your first husband in the beginning. 298 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 2: No, it was very different. It was, oh, he feels 299 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: like a friend. I feel safe here. And I resonated 300 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: so deeply to what you said where It's like I 301 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: thought he was so safe and I didn't yet realize 302 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 2: all the ways in which I felt unsafe and like that. 303 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: You know, that chipping away came later. But what I 304 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 2: am very grateful for is that was a nine year 305 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: relationship and I think because I felt safe enough, it 306 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: was actually a massive moment for my career, my creative expression. 307 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: You know, I became an author, I wrote many books. 308 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: I really like, found and discovered myself. I did deep work. 309 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: I understood my wounding. I you know, learned about attachment trauma. 310 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: You know, it's that relationship enabled me to do all 311 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: of that, and I feel like kind of become the 312 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: woman who was ready for extraordinary and safe love. And 313 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 2: so in some ways that prepared me that relationship, as 314 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: odd as that might sound. 315 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: Was he doing work also while you were doing that? 316 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: That was part of the challenge is he was not 317 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: doing the same work, and so I felt like there 318 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 2: was like a mismatch in depth and I, yeah, I 319 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: just that was my biggest begging of him, like please, 320 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: like we you look at you know, when you look 321 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: at your stuff? 322 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And you can't make your partner do that. 323 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. 324 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: And sometimes they don't do it, They just won't ever 325 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: do it. But sometimes something happens and they have that 326 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: moment where they're like, oo, I see my part in this. 327 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: I really need to figure out why I am What 328 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: am I doing in this team? Yeah? 329 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: And I had a therapist say something really insightful to me. 330 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 2: She was like, this is interesting. Who does he remind 331 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: you of? Because it sounds like you've picked the same 332 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: person who's familiar but new and you're trying to resolve 333 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: the wounds of your past. Who are you always trying 334 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: to change in your life? And I was like, oh, 335 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: my mom, I know. So she's like, you're not saying, hey, husband, 336 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: do the work, please work on yourself so that I 337 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 2: you know, I'll I know you'll still be here to 338 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: take care of me. You're saying, hey, mom, please do 339 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: the work so I know you'll still be here to 340 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 2: take care of me. And I realize like, oh, I 341 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, my husband is a surrogate 342 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: for my How my mother wound? 343 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: I hate that so much. It's so hard because that's 344 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: the last person you really want to be thinking about 345 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: when you're looking into the eyes of your spouse, like 346 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: it's not good. 347 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: No. I was like, I don't have daddy issues. I 348 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: don't have mommy issues. And my therapist is like, uh huh, 349 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: you're never trying to change or fixure of mom. 350 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: Oh man, that I mean that at the core of 351 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: any fraud, you know, you can't change or fix anyone. 352 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's you're never going to get very far 353 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: with that challenge. We hear from a lot of people 354 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: on this podcast that they knew their marriage wasn't right 355 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: long before it actually ended, whether it was you know, 356 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 1: near the end, or even if it was before they 357 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 1: walked down the aisle or as they're walking down the aisle. 358 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 1: There's those thoughts, you know, I always wonder am I 359 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: these thoughts that on, these questioning thoughts about like have 360 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: I picked right? Is this forever? 361 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 2: Is? 362 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: Can I cohabitate with this person for the rest of 363 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: my life? I always think, is that is that a 364 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: real red flag? Is that an actual red flag? Or 365 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: is that just my mind just trying to destroy something good? 366 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: How did you, like, cause I'm sure you felt those 367 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: feelings at times too, Like how did you deal with that? 368 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was I was one who walked down the 369 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: aisle thinking I don't know how long this is going 370 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: to last? Oh god, it was, you know, But I 371 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: was also like, but well through a great party. 372 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: You see. 373 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: If that sounds like, that's how I rationalize it in 374 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: the moment, you know. I think my struggle discerning between 375 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: intuition and fear is also part of what kept me 376 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: in it, because I kept saying, Oh, maybe this is 377 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: just fear, Maybe this is just my mind. But the 378 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: truth is is that when I was alone and I 379 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: was still, and I'm you know, I'm a writer, and 380 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 2: I was a pen and paper, my pen would say 381 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 2: this is not right. And that came from a quiet 382 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: voice that came from like a knowing voice, that came 383 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 2: from a calm, peaceful place inside of me, not a 384 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: racing mind. That's like, you know, there's a different energy 385 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: to anxiety and fear than there is to intuition and knowing, 386 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 2: and so the intuition and knowing would trigger the fear 387 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: of like, oh God, what are you going to do? 388 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: Everyone's going to be mad at you. What are people 389 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: going to think? You can't cancel your wedding? People worth 390 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: flying halfway across the world. You just spent so much 391 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: money on this. That was the fear that was reacting 392 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 2: to the knowing, And it was the fear that kept me, 393 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 2: you know, so concerned about what everyone else would think 394 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 2: and then not making choices that reflected my my authenticity. 395 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: And so the work for me as a like i'd 396 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 2: consider myself kind of a harmonizer and a people pleaser. 397 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 2: It became realizing that I have to tolerate people's disappointment 398 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: and disapproval of me, and that was going to be 399 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: my greatest edge, because so long as I was trying 400 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: to make everyone happy, I was only going to make 401 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: myself unhappy. If I was just trying not to disappoint everyone, 402 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: I was going to continue to have to live with 403 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: my own disappointment. So I realized I had to instead 404 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: of like tolerating feeling disconnected in my marriage or like 405 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: I'm unfulfilled, I was going to have to tolerate the 406 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: discomfort of other people being disappointed. And so, you know, 407 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: once I knew the knowing was the knowing, it wasn't 408 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 2: the trubble for me wasn't so much hearing the knowing, 409 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: it was actually acting. 410 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: On it, right, because he carried around the knowing for 411 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: a while. 412 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: Care out of the knowing for a while, and I 413 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 2: was really like, just people, this is going to hurt 414 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: someone that I do care about, and this is gonna 415 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: upset people, and people are gonna have a lot of 416 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings about it. And you know, our nervous 417 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: system can only tolerate so much. And so I think 418 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 2: part of why we stay as long as we do 419 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 2: is that our nervous system doesn't have doesn't yet have 420 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 2: the capacity to handle, you know, canceling, let's see, canceling 421 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 2: a wedding, spending all that money, doing all those things, 422 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: And so we stay because it's actually more comfortable to 423 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: stay than it is to face the hard but true choice. 424 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, for sure, I mean I felt that way 425 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: for sure with my first marriage when it was over 426 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: very short lived marriage, by the way, when I knew 427 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: that it wasn't right, and then I started moving in 428 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: that direction. And then I met someone else and that 429 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: made it a lot more clear. And that's you know, 430 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: that always happens when you meet someone else in a 431 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: breakup or relationship ending. It's a lot easier because you're like, oh, 432 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: I can focus on that, and that feels so good. 433 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to that, you know, instead of 434 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: thinking about the earthquake that you just you know, the 435 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: big show that just exploded in your wake. And I 436 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: remember feeling like the worst feeling of knowing that I 437 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: was hurting someone ultimately, Yeah, and that does that can 438 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: keep you right where you are, because that is a 439 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: very big I choose me moment, and it's it sounds 440 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: selfish m hm. It looks to other people and even 441 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: internally like grappling with is this the most selfish thing 442 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: I've ever done? Yeah, it's hard to like you got 443 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: to just love yourself through that, I guess, and just 444 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: keep you know, reminding yourself that this is the right 445 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: choice for me. Yeah, because it would be so easy 446 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: to just give into those easy, comfortable thoughts like you 447 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: were saying, Yeah, do you think do you think about 448 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: what your life would have been like had you not 449 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: met your your soulmate John? I mean, do you think 450 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: that you would still be in that marriage or do 451 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: you think that it would have ended because of a 452 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: different situation. 453 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think about that question a lot. In the 454 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: reason is I don't know. I would like to think 455 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: that something would have been, you know, the catalyst or 456 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: the mirror to have me be like, wait a minute, 457 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: I don't know what that would have been. And I 458 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 2: felt a lot of shame about the fact that I had. 459 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: It required me to meet someone else to leave. Why 460 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 2: Why could I just garner the strength within myself and 461 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: be like bye? But you know, for whatever reason, in 462 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: the way that my story wanted to unfold, it required 463 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: me to meet someone else. And you know, we can't 464 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 2: really control how things happen. I think we can control 465 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: how I respond to them. And you know, I think 466 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: even though that may have not been how I would 467 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: have loved for it to play out, the one thing 468 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: that I did do is I was very honest and transparent. 469 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: Pretty immediately the night that I met John, I and 470 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: they left. I turned to my then husband. I said 471 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: to him, I just met a soulmate. And I wasn't thinking. 472 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: You said, I just met a soulmate. I just met 473 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: a soul may not my soulmate. 474 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 2: Not my soul may I just sul and I wasn't, Like, honestly, 475 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: wasn't thinking in that moment, and I'm going to like 476 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: blow everything up and leave you. And like I was 477 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: just like the connection was so undeniable. I just said 478 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: to him, like, I just met a soulnate. 479 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: And didn't he acknowledge it too? 480 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: He said, I saw, and that was beautiful to witness. 481 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: So it was you know, I'm a big believer that 482 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: saying speaking the truth might be the hardest thing, but 483 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: it's even the kindest thing, even if we think, oh gosh, 484 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: I'm a terrible person. I am so selfish. I can't 485 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: believe I'm going to hurt this person that I care about. 486 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 2: But a girlfriend of mine, she said to me, as 487 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 2: I was going through this, and I called her, I 488 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: was like, God, I don't sort intendity. I was freaking out, 489 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 2: and she was like, listen, like it sounds like you're 490 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: coming to terms with the fact that the story of 491 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: your relationship doesn't match the reality of it. No one 492 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: benefits from someone being half in on a relationship, and 493 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: I believe liberation is a two way street. So if 494 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 2: you're self abandoning to the being the relationship, chances are 495 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: he's self abandoning. And it's like you're, you know, feeling trapped, 496 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 2: He's probably also feeling trapped. And so I really like 497 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: leaned into like, I'm just gonna name and finally say 498 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: the things that we haven't been saying. And I don't 499 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: know how what's going to happen, but I trust that 500 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 2: if I at least speak what's true, what's meant to 501 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: be will be. 502 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: So did that happen right after you met John? 503 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 2: The I met a soulmate happen right after I met John? 504 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: And then it was just kind of like, Okay, well, 505 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: my initial thinking was I'm not going to be with 506 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: John in this lifetime, maybe in another life. So I'm 507 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: going to make him my creative partner in this project 508 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: that I'm doing and brought him on to this land 509 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 2: project where you know you're going to detail on this 510 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 2: in the book without getting without rambling too much. I 511 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: quickly realized, wait that he's not just going to be 512 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: my creative partner. There's a lot more here. 513 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: Wait what did he Wait? What did he awaken in 514 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: you that you weren't feeling in your marriage? But what 515 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: was the feeling? How did you know I felt home 516 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: with him? 517 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 2: Would be the feeling like it was? It wasn't like 518 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 2: this like oh my god, I want you, it's like 519 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: so fire. It was just like this peace, this calm, 520 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: this like feeling of home, but also like feeling of 521 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: a liveness. And it was I think just the way 522 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: I felt with him was just like, oh, this is 523 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: what you know. And it's crazy to think that I 524 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: was a thirty five year old woman and hadn't really 525 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: experienced like true romantic connection that felt honest and real 526 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: and not like there were games. It was just like like, oh, 527 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: this is this is what real connection is supposed to 528 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: feel like was the feeling. 529 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: Honestly, I don't think it's that rare in this day 530 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: and age to be in your thirties and have not 531 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: experienced that feeling. And that's scary in itself. 532 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: It is scary. Yeah. So I was just like, oh, 533 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: this this is what love is. This is what love 534 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: feels like. And even though I barely know this person. 535 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: In my mind was like, you're insane, he's a stranger. 536 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: But my body was like, no, this is this is love, 537 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 2: this is connection, this is true and I can't deny 538 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:32,719 Speaker 2: that and I don't want to. 539 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: So how long was it before you ended up just 540 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, exiting your marriage knowing that that is what 541 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: had to be done. And what was that time in 542 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: the interim, like especially now working with him? 543 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was about from the day I met John 544 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: four weeks later my husband and I closed our marriage, 545 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: and that in between time was like, I mean, it was. 546 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: It was crazy because you know, John and I are 547 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: first like, Okay, let's collaborate. Okay, let's name what this 548 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: connection is. Okay, you're feeling the same thing I'm feeling. Okay, 549 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: go tell husband, husband, I'm I'm getting feelings. And he's like, no, no, 550 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: you're getting feelings. You think I'm an idiot. I know 551 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: I can see. But also this has actually kind of, 552 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: you know, been helpful because now that he's meeting your 553 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 2: emotional needs, I have all this time to go do 554 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,479 Speaker 2: all these work things I've been wanting to be focused on. 555 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: So it was like, I mean, honestly, it felt like 556 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: I was in a movie and I kept like looking 557 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: for cameras. I was like, is Ashton Kutcher gonna like 558 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: jump out and tell me that I'm punked? Is like? What? Like? 559 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 2: Is this like? It was? It was the most bizarre 560 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 2: thing because we were kind of all in on it 561 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: together and even acknowledging like no one would understand this 562 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: weird thing that we're all doing together, which is like 563 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: we the three of us happened to meet and maybe 564 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 2: like and I didn't know. I was like, maybe John's 565 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: a catalyst for our marriage to blow up but I 566 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: never see John again, or maybe John's the blow up 567 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 2: of my life. We're gonna find out. 568 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: Oh my god, but I like an up ended feeling. 569 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. So four weeks, though, four weeks is 570 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: doable like that, I'm glad it was just four ways 571 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: and didn't go further. Yeah, that sounds like it would 572 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: just be ripping me apart. 573 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot, but 574 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: it was also like, yeah, as a writer, I was 575 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: just like I'm taking notes. I han't here, and I'm 576 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: just gonna keep taking notes. It was crazy. 577 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: You're like outside looking in at your life. Happening right 578 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: in real time. Do you believe in divine intervention like fate? 579 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: Like did this happen because of that? 580 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: You know? I will say the experience made me believe 581 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 2: in fate more. And there were strange coincidences. You know, 582 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: my father visits me as a monarch butterfly and John's 583 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 2: father visits him as a ladybug, and like we kept 584 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: like it was monarch butterflies were visiting, ladybugs are visiting. 585 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: Shooting stars were happening in our presence. It felt like 586 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: the universe was like, hello, wake up and pay attention. 587 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 2: You haven't been listening. So I'm gonna be over the 588 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: top to kind of I'm going to drop another shooting 589 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 2: star in front of you and John so that you 590 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: guys are like, okay. So it was it was I 591 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: believed that I do believe that we were meant to meet. 592 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 2: And even what I said to John as it was 593 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 2: all going down, as crazy as this might sound, I 594 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 2: was like, I feel like our dads met in SpiritLand 595 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: or whatever you want to call it, and they've been 596 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: working to bring us together. Because it did feel like 597 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 2: super divine, super faded and like and how it all 598 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: unfolded it. It felt truly meant to be, you know, 599 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: I don't. I don't. I feel like I'm not the 600 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: words to describe it, but it did feel destined. 601 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you're in that open place where you're 602 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: experiencing new feelings and it's kind of cracking you open, 603 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: then I think you see things the signs so much 604 00:32:52,480 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: more clearly and easily. Absolutely, the shooting stars and the butterflies. Absolutely. Yeah. 605 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: I'm one of those people that's like, oh my gosh, 606 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: all the signs I'm seeing, all the signs that this 607 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: is the direction I should go, But maybe it's not. 608 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just a butterfly coming bye. Like, you know, 609 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: could we put so much meaning on it? You know, 610 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: because we want to be supported in our decision, and 611 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: we'll find the ways that we need so that we 612 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: do make the right decision, whether it's fate or divine 613 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: intervention or just a Monday. 614 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: You know, I do find I do, like, regardless of 615 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: when it meant. When I'm looking for signs, it usually 616 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: means I know something in my knowing and intuition and 617 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: I'm looking for someone else to tell me what I 618 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: know to be true is okay. So in some ways, 619 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: it was like I saw a butterfly. It means I'm 620 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: on the right path because I because I know I'm 621 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: on the right path. But maybe I shouldn't be on 622 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: the right path because society, your expectations, would tell me 623 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: I'm on the wrong path. And then I'm doing a 624 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: bad thing. But you know, maybe the butterfly tells me 625 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: I'm actually doing the self honoring thing. I'm gonna believe 626 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: I'm doing this self onforting thing. 627 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: How did you heal from those feelings of oh, I'm 628 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: doing a bad thing? 629 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 2: There was a lot of you know, what was interesting 630 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 2: is that leaving the marriage was one thing, but then 631 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 2: here I was. So six weeks after I met John, 632 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: I packed my things, I arrived in la where he 633 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 2: was living, and we'd committed our lives to each other, 634 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 2: and we had not yet kissed. 635 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: And I was risky, very risky. 636 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 2: I was on the other side of a nine year 637 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: pretty much sexless relationship, feeling very disconnected from that part 638 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: of myself, and John was not disconnected from that part 639 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: of himself. And so then all the stuff, all the 640 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: insecurities that I wasn't expecting, all the abandonment, anxieties that 641 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 2: had me be like, oh, this is why I chose 642 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: a safe relationships because I didn't want to have to 643 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 2: feel all of this and feel like a crazy person. 644 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: All of that came to the surface, and so that 645 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: brought me to therapy, and therapy was both like unpacking 646 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 2: kind of this childhood you know, this childhood trauma combined 647 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: with this like good girl conditioning around, Oh this is bad. Yeah, 648 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: you know what you did with selfish you you have 649 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 2: to hurt yourself so you don't hurt another, be the 650 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: nice person, don't rock the boat. You know. All of 651 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 2: that really like came to a head once John and 652 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 2: I would were together, which, as you can imagine, was 653 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 2: like really exciting for him. 654 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm sure that was just a wild time in 655 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: your life too, of just all those things coming out 656 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: and opening up and those realizations but being caught up 657 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: in this love story. Yeah, you've said that journaling is 658 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 1: a big part of your recovery and your healing. Tell 659 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: us how you you are so into journaling, you do 660 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: it with other people, you provide that service, or how 661 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: does that work with your journaling? 662 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 2: Journaling has been I've been journaling since I was a kid. 663 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 2: But I also lead writing workshops, journaling and workshops to 664 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: help people to really create that practice with themselves. But 665 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 2: journaling for me is that safe place where I can 666 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 2: be as honest and as I possibly can, so that 667 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: I can see myself and know myself and know what 668 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 2: I think and know what I feel. And so, you know, 669 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: as a lot of as I was really waking up 670 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 2: to like oh I'm actually really unhappy in this marriage, 671 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 2: it became the place to just like name what was true. 672 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. I 673 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: haven't felt you know, like whatever that is that the 674 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 2: journal is that place for you. And yeah, questions can 675 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 2: be helpful for people. So some questions that I suggest 676 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 2: are like what truth am I afraid to say out loud? 677 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: And why or where am I disappointing myself so I 678 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 2: don't have to disappoint another. 679 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: Those will get you in there, still in there. 680 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just like what's alive in me? You know? 681 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 2: Can it can be if you want. It depends on 682 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: like how deep you and how quick you know what's 683 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: a lie to me? And so, you know, I find 684 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: that like being brave on the page helps me be 685 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 2: braver in real life. 686 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: Do you go back and read old journals sometimes? 687 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: You know? And I love Julia Cameron The Artist's Way. 688 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: You know, she says three stream of consciousness pages every 689 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 2: morning just to like get stuff, get the gunk out 690 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: of the way, and she tells you not to read 691 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 2: your pages, but you know, I sometimes go back. I 692 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 2: think it's it can be helpful. Or as I was 693 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: writing this book, I went back on my journalism a 694 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 2: lot because it was like the I was helped me 695 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 2: like have the pulse of what I was really feeling. 696 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: So sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't. 697 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember I just wasn't ready and I would 698 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: sort of kind of take a peek in there and 699 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: then I just feel bad about myself all over again 700 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: for whatever the issue was, whatever it was that I 701 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: was working on. And it wasn't until I was like 702 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: in my fifties that I was let me crack open 703 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: those journals and really get to know that person at 704 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: that point in her life. And it's it's incredibly telling, 705 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: you know. And you do learn a lot about yourself 706 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: through journaling, absolutely, yeah, and just get it out, get 707 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: it out of your head. A lot of people are 708 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: going to have different opinions and they're going to understand 709 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: the situation differently, and you know, some people don't understand it. 710 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 1: What do you want your readers to take away from 711 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: your book? 712 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 2: I want them to listen to the quiet voice within 713 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 2: them that knows and make their life a reflection of 714 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: that knowing, and whether they're in a job that doesn't 715 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 2: that they feel trapped in, or if there's a relationship 716 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 2: they've outgrown friendship love. You know, I feel like we 717 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 2: all get to we often get to a moment in 718 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: our lives where we realize like, ooh, this isn't quite it, 719 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 2: and I have been ignoring myself or I've been abandoning myself, 720 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 2: or I haven't been honoring myself because I'm afraid mostly 721 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: of what other people are going to think. And so really, 722 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: I hope the book is an imation to like come 723 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 2: back home to self and to honor what you know 724 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 2: to be true and to let your life be a 725 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: reflection of that. So like, yes, the book is this 726 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: like love story, but really the love story was just 727 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 2: a vehicle for this self love journey for me and 728 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: ultimately the self liberation story. So I hope people it's 729 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: a vehicle for people to liberate themselves from the cages 730 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 2: of their own making. 731 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: I love that. Wow, Perfect Love Well is out now. 732 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: You can see Amber Thursday, August fourteenth at Zibbi's Bookshop 733 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: in Santa Monica and check out her website for other 734 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: stops she'll be making on our book tour. Thank you 735 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: so much, Amber for being so vulnerable and bringing you know, 736 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: awareness to something that is I'm scary. It's scary to 737 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: come out and be so honest about that. Yeah, thank you, 738 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: This is much, but it's beautiful that you did. 739 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 2: Thank you think. 740 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: Thank you. 741 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 2: Take care. 742 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: Are you working on finding yourself post divorce? Need some 743 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: advice on how to fe figure out your new life? 744 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 1: Call us or email us. All the info is in 745 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: the show notes, follow us on the socials. Make sure 746 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 1: to rate and review the podcast. All the things you 747 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: know you're supposed to do with a podcast, I do 748 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: Part two an iHeartRadio podcasts where falling in love is 749 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: the main objective.