WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Sly Stone Tribute with Ben Greenman 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:10.320 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Ladies and Gentlemen. 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:16.200 This is a you know something, just hit me. I'm 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.720 certain if someone does a super cut, all they're gonna 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:23.560 get is if you just take the first twelve seconds 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.880 of this podcast, it's always gonna start with ladies and gentlemen. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:37.440 This is a special. You're all right, I'm gonna do 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:38.720 the opposite. Ladies and gentlemen. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.320 How you That's how you kick it off each time here. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:42.640 That's how you get a character. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.919 I don't know, it's it's to me. I don't know. 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:51.560 Maybe maybe every episode is my dream episode, or every 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:55.200 episode is an amazing you know something, there's something unique 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.080 about each episode. Yeah, this is Quest Love Supreme. I'm 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.200 doing the solo stufle. I don't mind this. I wish 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.039 I could do more of these, you know. I will 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:09.480 say to our listeners out there, if you are committed 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.240 to this podcast, and nine times out of ten, I 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.920 would like to think that you guys have purchased the 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:24.720 tangible roots albums, complete with a gazillion liner notes. Not 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.160 to mention to follow me on Instagram is to also 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.920 complain about my inside baseball speak, of which I will 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.800 say that this gentleman here is kind of the equivalent 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.160 smacking me on the back of the hand, Like, no, that's. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.240 A run project right off the top. It's a mix 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.400 of slapping you on the back of the hand and 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.360 patting you on the back of the back, which is 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.640 to say it's a yeah. I mean, they're just different things. 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.000 But no, we inside baseball away at any at any time, 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:57.440 we just. 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.800 Uh, yeah, right, but clearly we clearly know that my 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:07.600 propensity to rabbit hole, yes that's true, and to rabbit 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.920 hole and just to delve off into uncharted territory like 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.639 a person needs a GPS. And I'm actually shocked. There's 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:20.359 some friends of mine since the pandemic, you know, they're like, Okay, 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.200 I'm gonna start getting to my my memoir and whatnot. 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.480 And I think they kind of treat it like the 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.280 rap game. Like I'd see them like going off with 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.520 their computers and I'm like, wait, you're doing this on 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:37.280 your own without like adult supervision, and they're kind of like, yeah, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.800 that's that's the way it should be. And I'm like, no, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:40.560 it isn't. 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.959 So you don't make a movie running around It's also 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.519 it's just it's like we have to. It's just Baby 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.720 Jessica and you out of the well, that's. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:56.160 See, and that that reference alone is how I'm gonna. 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.600 Because you think it's fun, that's great, It's just that. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.800 Then what and then so this is the fact that 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.080 you mentioned Baby Jessica, who I'm certain now is like 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.080 thirty seven years old. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been greeman. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.240 If you purchased any of mine what is it now, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:14.320 seven books? 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:16.560 Yeah, by the way, let me just say I think 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.720 she is thirty seven because I looked up the other day. 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.280 The fact that you hit her age exactly is a 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:21.679 long wow. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.200 That Yeah, I'm scared of myself. Wait, baby, I'm looking 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.360 right now Baby Jessica today. See even now we're supposed 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.080 to be talking about sly Stone. Really, Oh my gosh, 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:38.360 she's like seven feet tall. She's married with a husband, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.520 and she's like seven feet tall. 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:44.400 Well, well, well, the Baby Jessica podcast. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.560 All right, So let me explain Ben's role in my life. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.400 You know right before, I mean, if you're a longtime 0:03:55.440 --> 0:04:00.280 die hard Roots follower, you will know that it's takes 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:05.320 a crazy soul to figure out things in real time. 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:10.120 And when you're dealing with so many personalities and so 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.560 many I wouldn't know the proper term to call like 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.840 a person with my brain and a person with Tarik's brain, 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.520 and a person like just dealing what he has to 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.320 deal with. Kind of the last three years of Richard 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:29.680 Nichol's life, of which he knew his exit was going 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.720 to happen, he wanted to be more prepared and really 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.239 prepare us so that his work doesn't go in vain. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.880 Speaking of Richard Nichols, the longtime manager and sort of 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.040 brain trust of the roots of which you know, his 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.320 ability and his gift to take the creative out of 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.200 me and mold it and to take the creative out 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.120 of Tarik, and really for all of us in the circle, 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.920 even members not of the group, like people that work 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:02.760 in the circle. It takes it takes a crazy figure 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.440 to figure this all out, like to juggle eighteen plates 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.760 at the same time. And our guest today, Ben Greenman, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.800 rich basically was like, you know this writer from the 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:19.880 New Yorker. Richard said that I guess implanning the what 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.839 is called the A Mirror Book, which basically kind of 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.839 while he was in as sort of state, you know, 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.520 he had Leukemian was in the hospital for a long 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.760 time and even though his brain was there, like he 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.160 really wasn't fully functional, but he you know, he can 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.039 still type in text and all those things. And he 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.680 said that there's a writer. I really like it. I 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.560 want him to sort of play my role in your 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.760 life for your books. And I'm like, wait, what books. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.240 He's like, yeah, You're going to write books. And then 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:54.000 every everything that I'm doing now, Like Richard basically put 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.360 on the A Mirror Book of Life, and it's kind 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.200 of his last words on the book was like, if 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.120 you're broke by seventy five, then I can't help you. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:08.120 So Richard basically spent the last six months of his 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:13.279 life planning me in tu Reek's next fifty years, which 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.880 everything on that list I absolutely detested. I'm like, I'm 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.560 not writing a book quest Love, what the hell's that? 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.760 Quest loves Food, I'm not I'm not investing in food, Like, 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.200 what the hell is that? And literally everything I'm doing now, 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:33.159 teaching movies, directing, producing. You know, he knew that I 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.000 had a gift to me that I didn't know. So 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.240 this is how Ben Greeman came into our lives. 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.280 Rich is at the genesis of in a weird way, 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.720 at the genesis of this book that we're talking about too, 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:45.240 which I can I'll get right. 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.200 Well, that's that's what I'm sorry. I gave you a 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:54.080 long ten minute introduction to basically say that, you know, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.640 I wanted to know, like your best writing style, like 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.640 I saw the New Yorker stuff. But there's book, I 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.560 guess a fictional book. He explain. This book to me 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.800 was sort of like a fictional lines version of Sly. 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.279 Okay, So this is sort of the weird, the bizarre 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.440 genesis of this project, which is that I was obsessed 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.960 with sling the Family Stones music since I was a kid, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:16.600 you know, eight and nine, ten years old. I bought 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.160 greatest hits on cassette. I wore it out. I what 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.040 do you call that little brush at the bottom on 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.400 the metal of the cassette? I when you double stick 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.080 tape it because it falls off and you have to 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.280 put it back off, right. I repaired the cassette so 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:30.280 I could keep hearing it. 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:31.840 And what year did you buy this? 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.880 Seventy eight, seventy nine, whatever I was when I was 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.720 seventy seven, seventy eight seventy nine, something like that. 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.119 And you brought it or like was it in your house? 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.880 No, No, I was starting to buy cassettes on my 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.320 first set of cassettes whatever was coming out around then, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.920 like it was probably Hall and Oates and Elton John 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.040 and I got onto the slot Billy Joel and I 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.400 just got the slide, like I had heard the songs, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.160 the biggest songs on the radio, and I love the 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:00.720 cover photo, and the cover photo we can get back 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.160 to as a sort of end cap, because to me, 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.200 that is the kind of metaphor. It's this one guy 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.760 sitting in the car and then all these iterations of 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.520 other people just flowering from his head, and it's a 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.320 kind of amazing metaphor for what the project was. But 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.040 I just heard the music and I loved all the 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.440 hugest hits. And then as I explored, as I got 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.840 to be twelve thirteen, and I was buying all the 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:29.280 other records, and I just got obsessed. The way I 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.240 put it is that with most pop music, if you 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.000 hear enough of it, if I play you a minute 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.559 and then I paused the song and I say, okay, 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.360 tell me what you think the next ten seconds will be. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.560 You know, I mean, you certainly know, and I know 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.360 in most cases you have a sense of the rhythm, 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:48.040 you have a sense of the structure. The idiosyncrasies of Sly, 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.480 even within a pop music context, were amazing. Like you 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.440 can hear a minute of thankful and thoughtful hit the pause. 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.600 I don't really know what's gonna happen, you know, from 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.679 down to like the actual rhythms of the song and 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.560 drumming over the machines, to there's a lyrical left turn 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.800 or some bizarre resurfacing of another song. I just he 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:13.560 was very surprising and very I was fascinated that somebody 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.160 could not be predictable. And then, as I later found 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.120 out in life as well as on the music, so 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:22.640 my early twenties mid twenties, I thought about writing a 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:27.600 straightforward biography, just like this is the story. I'm a journalist, 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.400 this is what happened. As I researched it, I would 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.320 find things that upset me, and I was too young, 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.480 and I didn't really know how to do it, and 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.680 I didn't want to do it in that way. I 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.200 didn't want to be the one to say I found 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.559 out all these negative things about this person who I 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.280 idolize and here they are. So I stopped and I 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.160 converted it to a novel, which was a composite really 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.840 of Sly and Marvin Gay, a little bit of Curtis Mayfield, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.320 dustings of swamp Dog and Deronto and whoever else you know. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:03.200 Just it was like a funk star in large part 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.160 Sly and a large part Marvin Gay, because there I 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.240 kind of mashed up the different aspects of the tragedies 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.440 of their life. That novel it's sold okay, but it 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.760 seemed to find its way to music people. One of 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.160 those people was rich, and one of those people was 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.360 someone in George's camp, George Clinton's camp. So around the 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.720 same time, I think you're a year ahead of George. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.520 I think your book came out in thirteen and George's 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:35.400 in fourteen. Pretty soon after we wrote Mometa, I got 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.440 a call that George wanted was looking for a co 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.079 writer for his memoir, and that was also in his equation. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.600 So he had been like, Wow, the sensibility here is 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.040 kind of interesting, and it's a different kind of storytelling, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.080 and it's it really seems to be presenting a voice 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.920 rather than just analyzing, and it's I don't know, non 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:59.480 judgmental about certain aspects of the lifestyle, and something about it. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.400 He liked it. And then when I met him, I 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:03.320 just made a couple of jokes and he liked the jokes. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.679 Like the joke I made is with George. He was 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.120 going through some legal stuff and I said, he had 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.600 all this paperwork and I said, you should print it 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:13.800 all on underwear and then just wear that on stage 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:15.800 and sell them and call them legal briefs. And he said, 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:17.360 oh my god, that's so funny. He didn't do it, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.320 but I think he liked that idiotic idea. 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.080 Yeah. I was going to say, that's such a George 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.240 Clinton thing to that's how you had him. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.680 It's like entrepreneurial insanity. And he's like, oh and so 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.800 so something about it he liked. So I did that book. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.839 We did all of our books and George, and as 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.960 I finished up that book, I remember sitting in the 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:41.520 car with Archiivy, George's right hand guy, and when we 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.480 were finishing up George's book and saying, I'd really love 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.520 to do Slies book. And the feeling at the at 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.720 that point was I don't know, man, like, it's not 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:57.640 like a super constructed situation. Over there right now. The 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.360 architecture is weird. He's still using obviously at that time, 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:06.199 which means that most of the goal in an average 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.360 day is to manage that part of life. And I 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.640 was connected to his camp and the people were great. 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.760 They were very nice, and he was very receptive. It 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.120 just didn't come together in a structured way. We would 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:21.160 make agreements. I think journalists have written about this, so 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:22.880 I'm not telling tales out of school. But to do 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.640 an interview, someone would say we need a thousand upfront, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.240 and I would say, no, no, no, no, no, We're talking 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.200 about a partnership on a book deal. I'm not This 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.000 is not how this works. I'm not buying today's you 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:36.439 know delivery. 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.320 You're basically saying that artists now charged for interviews. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.079 I think they needed money so he could score. I mean, 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.400 this is just my interpretation, and that they knew, as 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.720 the people who were helping him, that the main goal 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.840 was to get cash for that day. And it was 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.840 very shortsighted and very short term. So we wrote up 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.760 a bunch of agreements and they all collapsed. We'd start 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.440 toadline them to make them more professional, and I'd say, well, 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:03.959 I'll gree to this, but not to this, and then 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.120 it just never happened. And I would say my wife 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.920 every year, I'm still trying for this. I mean, George 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.200 is still optimistic. He says he'll connect me to this 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.120 new guy who's with him or this person, but I 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.439 don't know. It just doesn't seem like it's a doable thing. 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.720 Then in twenty nineteen, Arlene, who had been Sly's girlfriend 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.880 in the eighties and sort of re entered the camp. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.840 She had broken up a Sly gone and worked in 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.480 the legal industry, gotten married, built a straight life such 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.280 as it was, and then came back in as a 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.960 kind of management helper. So she was able to help 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:42.800 him execute certain kinds of correspondence, or to process things, 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.560 or to say to him the practical part. She was 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.000 really strong, I'm like, you can't forget to do this 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.839 thing by Thursday, or if you can't, we got to 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.880 ask for send a note saying we need more time, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:55.640 you know that kind of stuff. So she called me 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:57.440 in twenty nineteen, and I guess it had come to 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.400 her attention that this book had been on the table, 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.680 and she was very positive about it. And then I 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.360 hung up and told my wife, Oh my god, I 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.320 think it might happen, like there's a real infrastructure. Then 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.640 they disappeared for six months, and I was despondent and 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.679 I thought, okay, well, this is the final nail in 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.120 the coffin. I later learned that when they resurfaced that 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.160 it was because he was getting clean, and she didn't 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:20.640 think there was any way he could do the book 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.120 if he was still using. Plus he had immediate health 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.480 issues as he was trying to get clean. When he 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.920 got clean at the end of nineteen she called me again, 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.320 so we agreed, We got contract ready, We signed to 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.280 do the book and immediately into COVID and I thought 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.760 COVID would kill it, and it's in the crib. As 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.280 it turned out, COVID really helped it because everyone was 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.960 in one place. She didn't have to go to her 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.120 office every day, so she could be with Sly more 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.400 at his house, keeping him focused and explaining to him 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.040 what it would take to do this. And it was 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.640 a different process than the usual book. If you and 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:57.920 I do a book, or I do a book with George, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.640 it's a certain number of long conversations. Because of Sly's 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.040 health and his energy, we were capped at fifteen twenty 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.480 minutes sometimes, so we had to do a lot of 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.640 conversations that were shorter, which I don't think would have 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.040 happened without her, because she would, you know, remind him 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.040 we got to do this for the book, this is important, 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.600 Let's keep doing this. And we got a runway in 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.280 that first six months inside of the COVID cylinder where 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.800 he really committed to the process, which was great. I mean, 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:29.600 she has a credit on the book for that reason. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:33.360 It says created in collaboration with her, because truthfully, had 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.400 she not helped to keep him focused in those early months, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:42.200 it could have easily dissipated. And that was how it happened. 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.040 I mean, that's sort of the backstory. And the weird part, 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.720 like you said initially, is that the weird fiction book 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.200 that came out of my not wanting to confront this 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.760 person's real life ended up very round about leading me 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.920 back to the door of this memoir, so that it 0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:59.960 was It's strange. It's one of those things in life 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.800 that you know, who knows. I like to think that 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.560 Rich knew. My theory is that Rich knew all this 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.200 stuff fifteen years ago and he figured it all out, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.360 and he had it all mapped, and he's like, Ben 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.480 wrote this novel, but if I do this, a mirror 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.360 will be able to do this, and eventually Ben, we'll 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:19.560 get back to the memoir. So in my mind, this 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:20.560 is already planned. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.200 Yeah, you probably knew it was going to happen. This 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:28.920 is so weird. Even after I finished reading it, I 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.920 was like, well, I guess he'll really do Slies book, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.440 like for real, Like I always knew it was going 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.000 to happen, which I don't know if you ever felt 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.320 like it was never going to happen or whatever, So I. 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.640 Thought it wouldn't. And then again because of the nature 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.680 of his life now, which I didn't really know. I 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.160 had heard all the stories that you had heard, and 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.960 we had heard them all. I didn't know what the 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.000 person would be able to do, and I was really 0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:02.160 pleasantly surprised. I mean, his physical condition is iffy. Mentally 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:03.720 he was good. I had heard all the stories that 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.080 you had heard of him. One sentencing journalists or you know, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.240 having an answering machine message that said did you call 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:12.840 and then it would just hang up on the people 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.000 or whatever. Not a super accessible guy. But I think 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:21.239 that double gatekeeper thing of George and Arlene made him 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:23.879 at least provisionally trust the process, which is always his 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.880 issue being ill used or feeling like he was ill 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.879 used by media for so many years and made the 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:35.480 poster boy of you know, junkie failure and lost promise 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.040 and all this kind of stuff that really bugged him. 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:40.879 I think he needed to understand that it wasn't coming 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.840 from that side because his back was up. I think 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.280 his back was up for decades in some ways. And 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.879 then to get to the real guy, who can be 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.040 kind of gentle and funny and playful as well as 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:56.840 all those other things. I mean, he certainly can be 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:06.520 difficult and stubborn. That provisional trust was really important. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.760 For those of us that aren't familiar with how memoirs work. 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.520 Is this the same as an autobiography? Like, you know, 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.960 because even when you first approached me, I was dead 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.080 set against it because I was like, well, dude, like 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.600 I just turned forty, Like why am I at the 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.640 end of my life now? Like I'm thinking that autobiographies 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.399 are for anyone that has a six on the left 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.960 digit of their age and they have something worthy to 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:38.920 look back at. And I'm like why am I looking 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:43.040 in the rear view mirror, you know, right right after 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:44.600 undone comes out or whatever. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.439 Like, I think that the question is more about it 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:50.719 partly is what you're saying about how much of the 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:55.399 life that there's memoirs that focus on one aspect of 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.000 the life. Patti Smith's books are a great example, where 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.439 she's going to focus on her relationship to Downtown and 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.760 maple Thorpe at a certain period in her life, but 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:11.399 it informs the larger story. Autobiographies, generally speaking, are taken 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.080 to be the whole life, as much of the life 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.560 as you can do. But I don't know. There's probably 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:21.199 a very smart academic distinction that I don't know. I 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.960 just know it from the actual books that I've worked 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.680 on with you and with other people. And the best 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.639 way I can describe the sly one is that I 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.040 did George's and then I did Brian Wilson's book with him, 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.160 and those It's not I wouldn't say in a kind 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.680 of glib way that it's a combination of those two, 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.320 but there are some ways in which it is an 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:47.600 interesting midpoint between those two. Obviously, I thought, for funk purposes, 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.840 George is the New Testament slies the Old Testament. So 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.560 there's that kind of idea too of your you go 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:55.840 backwards in time and you do the New Testament version. 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.880 With George, you get p funk and highly conceptual narra 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.520 driven funk, and a lot of characters and a real 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.600 good awareness of how cartoons work in Davy Crockett caps 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.840 and all that kind of stuff. George's version and then 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.920 sly version was the version that was the Old Testament 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.399 that's maybe a little bit more earnest and yoke to 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.960 the time and had to burn out so something new 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.600 could exist. So I thought about George a lot. And 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:25.879 then Brian Wilson was somebody who had very clear mental 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.320 illness that he was struggling with as well as substance problems. 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.920 I think for Slyes more substance issues, but it really 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.919 changed the shape in the nature of his memory. And 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:41.200 so in the Brian book we said, right at the beginning, 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.720 we're gonna have to deal with that forthrightly. We're gonna 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.359 have to talk about in some way how memory works 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.359 and doesn't work. Because you, for any of us, I mean, 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:52.639 you were young and you have a great memory, but 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:56.440 the fact of the matter is I don't remember many 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.440 many things of my own life, and I'm I live 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.520 a relative of the clean, boring life, and there's a 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:03.600 lot that I just can't recover as I get older. 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.680 Let alone, if you're eighty and you had sixty years 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.919 of fame and drugs, it's not the worst drug in 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.560 a way, is fame. And so I really wanted to 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.960 think through that with him. And so going back and 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.840 asking an eighty year old to reimagine what was the 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.119 sixty year old you? What was the forty year old you? 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.879 What was the twenty year old you? That's a bizarre exercise. 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.080 Do you remember the first question that you asked him? 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.000 The first question that I asked him when we were 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.639 writing the proposal was I was just trying to loosen 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.840 him up, and I asked about Woodstock and it didn't 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.840 take because it was I don't think it's that interesting 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.200 to him in some way, because there's the life lived 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.160 and then the life remembered. And I don't know if 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.919 he knew, you know, you just played the gig and 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:52.360 then later it's a legend. 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.040 Like did he not know that that was the paradigm 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:56.200