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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Ladies and Gentlemen.

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Speaker 1: This is a you know something, just hit me. I'm

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Speaker 1: certain if someone does a super cut, all they're gonna

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Speaker 1: get is if you just take the first twelve seconds

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Speaker 1: of this podcast, it's always gonna start with ladies and gentlemen.

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Speaker 1: This is a special. You're all right, I'm gonna do

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Speaker 1: the opposite. Ladies and gentlemen.

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Speaker 2: How you That's how you kick it off each time here.

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Speaker 2: That's how you get a character.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's to me. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe every episode is my dream episode, or every

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Speaker 1: episode is an amazing you know something, there's something unique

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Speaker 1: about each episode. Yeah, this is Quest Love Supreme. I'm

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Speaker 1: doing the solo stufle. I don't mind this. I wish

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Speaker 1: I could do more of these, you know. I will

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Speaker 1: say to our listeners out there, if you are committed

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Speaker 1: to this podcast, and nine times out of ten, I

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Speaker 1: would like to think that you guys have purchased the

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Speaker 1: tangible roots albums, complete with a gazillion liner notes. Not

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Speaker 1: to mention to follow me on Instagram is to also

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Speaker 1: complain about my inside baseball speak, of which I will

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Speaker 1: say that this gentleman here is kind of the equivalent

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Speaker 1: smacking me on the back of the hand, Like, no, that's.

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Speaker 2: A run project right off the top. It's a mix

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Speaker 2: of slapping you on the back of the hand and

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Speaker 2: patting you on the back of the back, which is

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Speaker 2: to say it's a yeah. I mean, they're just different things.

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Speaker 2: But no, we inside baseball away at any at any time,

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Speaker 2: we just.

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Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, right, but clearly we clearly know that my

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Speaker 1: propensity to rabbit hole, yes that's true, and to rabbit

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Speaker 1: hole and just to delve off into uncharted territory like

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Speaker 1: a person needs a GPS. And I'm actually shocked. There's

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Speaker 1: some friends of mine since the pandemic, you know, they're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna start getting to my my memoir and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: And I think they kind of treat it like the

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Speaker 1: rap game. Like I'd see them like going off with

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Speaker 1: their computers and I'm like, wait, you're doing this on

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Speaker 1: your own without like adult supervision, and they're kind of like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's the way it should be. And I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: it isn't.

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Speaker 2: So you don't make a movie running around It's also

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Speaker 2: it's just it's like we have to. It's just Baby

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Speaker 2: Jessica and you out of the well, that's.

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Speaker 1: See, and that that reference alone is how I'm gonna.

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Speaker 2: Because you think it's fun, that's great, It's just that.

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Speaker 1: Then what and then so this is the fact that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned Baby Jessica, who I'm certain now is like

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Speaker 1: thirty seven years old. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been greeman.

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Speaker 1: If you purchased any of mine what is it now,

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Speaker 1: seven books?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, let me just say I think

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Speaker 2: she is thirty seven because I looked up the other day.

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Speaker 2: The fact that you hit her age exactly is a

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Speaker 2: long wow.

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Speaker 1: That Yeah, I'm scared of myself. Wait, baby, I'm looking

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Speaker 1: right now Baby Jessica today. See even now we're supposed

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Speaker 1: to be talking about sly Stone. Really, Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: she's like seven feet tall. She's married with a husband,

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Speaker 1: and she's like seven feet tall.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, well, the Baby Jessica podcast.

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Speaker 1: All right, So let me explain Ben's role in my life.

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Speaker 1: You know right before, I mean, if you're a longtime

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Speaker 1: die hard Roots follower, you will know that it's takes

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Speaker 1: a crazy soul to figure out things in real time.

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Speaker 1: And when you're dealing with so many personalities and so

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Speaker 1: many I wouldn't know the proper term to call like

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Speaker 1: a person with my brain and a person with Tarik's brain,

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Speaker 1: and a person like just dealing what he has to

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Speaker 1: deal with. Kind of the last three years of Richard

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Speaker 1: Nichol's life, of which he knew his exit was going

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Speaker 1: to happen, he wanted to be more prepared and really

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Speaker 1: prepare us so that his work doesn't go in vain.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of Richard Nichols, the longtime manager and sort of

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Speaker 1: brain trust of the roots of which you know, his

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Speaker 1: ability and his gift to take the creative out of

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Speaker 1: me and mold it and to take the creative out

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Speaker 1: of Tarik, and really for all of us in the circle,

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Speaker 1: even members not of the group, like people that work

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Speaker 1: in the circle. It takes it takes a crazy figure

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Speaker 1: to figure this all out, like to juggle eighteen plates

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Speaker 1: at the same time. And our guest today, Ben Greenman,

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Speaker 1: rich basically was like, you know this writer from the

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Speaker 1: New Yorker. Richard said that I guess implanning the what

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Speaker 1: is called the A Mirror Book, which basically kind of

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Speaker 1: while he was in as sort of state, you know,

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Speaker 1: he had Leukemian was in the hospital for a long

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Speaker 1: time and even though his brain was there, like he

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Speaker 1: really wasn't fully functional, but he you know, he can

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Speaker 1: still type in text and all those things. And he

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Speaker 1: said that there's a writer. I really like it. I

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Speaker 1: want him to sort of play my role in your

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Speaker 1: life for your books. And I'm like, wait, what books.

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Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, You're going to write books. And then

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Speaker 1: every everything that I'm doing now, Like Richard basically put

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Speaker 1: on the A Mirror Book of Life, and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of his last words on the book was like, if

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Speaker 1: you're broke by seventy five, then I can't help you.

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Speaker 1: So Richard basically spent the last six months of his

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Speaker 1: life planning me in tu Reek's next fifty years, which

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Speaker 1: everything on that list I absolutely detested. I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not writing a book quest Love, what the hell's that?

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Speaker 1: Quest loves Food, I'm not I'm not investing in food, Like,

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Speaker 1: what the hell is that? And literally everything I'm doing now,

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Speaker 1: teaching movies, directing, producing. You know, he knew that I

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Speaker 1: had a gift to me that I didn't know. So

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Speaker 1: this is how Ben Greeman came into our lives.

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Speaker 2: Rich is at the genesis of in a weird way,

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Speaker 2: at the genesis of this book that we're talking about too,

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Speaker 2: which I can I'll get right.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's that's what I'm sorry. I gave you a

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Speaker 1: long ten minute introduction to basically say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know, like your best writing style, like

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Speaker 1: I saw the New Yorker stuff. But there's book, I

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Speaker 1: guess a fictional book. He explain. This book to me

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Speaker 1: was sort of like a fictional lines version of Sly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So this is sort of the weird, the bizarre

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Speaker 2: genesis of this project, which is that I was obsessed

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Speaker 2: with sling the Family Stones music since I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: you know, eight and nine, ten years old. I bought

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Speaker 2: greatest hits on cassette. I wore it out. I what

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Speaker 2: do you call that little brush at the bottom on

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Speaker 2: the metal of the cassette? I when you double stick

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Speaker 2: tape it because it falls off and you have to

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Speaker 2: put it back off, right. I repaired the cassette so

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Speaker 2: I could keep hearing it.

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Speaker 1: And what year did you buy this?

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Speaker 2: Seventy eight, seventy nine, whatever I was when I was

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Speaker 2: seventy seven, seventy eight seventy nine, something like that.

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Speaker 1: And you brought it or like was it in your house?

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Speaker 2: No, No, I was starting to buy cassettes on my

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Speaker 2: first set of cassettes whatever was coming out around then,

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Speaker 2: like it was probably Hall and Oates and Elton John

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Speaker 2: and I got onto the slot Billy Joel and I

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Speaker 2: just got the slide, like I had heard the songs,

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Speaker 2: the biggest songs on the radio, and I love the

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Speaker 2: cover photo, and the cover photo we can get back

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Speaker 2: to as a sort of end cap, because to me,

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Speaker 2: that is the kind of metaphor. It's this one guy

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Speaker 2: sitting in the car and then all these iterations of

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Speaker 2: other people just flowering from his head, and it's a

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Speaker 2: kind of amazing metaphor for what the project was. But

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Speaker 2: I just heard the music and I loved all the

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Speaker 2: hugest hits. And then as I explored, as I got

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Speaker 2: to be twelve thirteen, and I was buying all the

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Speaker 2: other records, and I just got obsessed. The way I

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Speaker 2: put it is that with most pop music, if you

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Speaker 2: hear enough of it, if I play you a minute

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Speaker 2: and then I paused the song and I say, okay,

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Speaker 2: tell me what you think the next ten seconds will be.

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Speaker 2: You know, I mean, you certainly know, and I know

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Speaker 2: in most cases you have a sense of the rhythm,

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Speaker 2: you have a sense of the structure. The idiosyncrasies of Sly,

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Speaker 2: even within a pop music context, were amazing. Like you

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Speaker 2: can hear a minute of thankful and thoughtful hit the pause.

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Speaker 2: I don't really know what's gonna happen, you know, from

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Speaker 2: down to like the actual rhythms of the song and

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Speaker 2: drumming over the machines, to there's a lyrical left turn

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Speaker 2: or some bizarre resurfacing of another song. I just he

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Speaker 2: was very surprising and very I was fascinated that somebody

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Speaker 2: could not be predictable. And then, as I later found

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Speaker 2: out in life as well as on the music, so

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Speaker 2: my early twenties mid twenties, I thought about writing a

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Speaker 2: straightforward biography, just like this is the story. I'm a journalist,

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Speaker 2: this is what happened. As I researched it, I would

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Speaker 2: find things that upset me, and I was too young,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't really know how to do it, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to do it in that way. I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be the one to say I found

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Speaker 2: out all these negative things about this person who I

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Speaker 2: idolize and here they are. So I stopped and I

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Speaker 2: converted it to a novel, which was a composite really

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Speaker 2: of Sly and Marvin Gay, a little bit of Curtis Mayfield,

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Speaker 2: dustings of swamp Dog and Deronto and whoever else you know.

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Speaker 2: Just it was like a funk star in large part

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Speaker 2: Sly and a large part Marvin Gay, because there I

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Speaker 2: kind of mashed up the different aspects of the tragedies

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Speaker 2: of their life. That novel it's sold okay, but it

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Speaker 2: seemed to find its way to music people. One of

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Speaker 2: those people was rich, and one of those people was

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Speaker 2: someone in George's camp, George Clinton's camp. So around the

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Speaker 2: same time, I think you're a year ahead of George.

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Speaker 2: I think your book came out in thirteen and George's

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Speaker 2: in fourteen. Pretty soon after we wrote Mometa, I got

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Speaker 2: a call that George wanted was looking for a co

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Speaker 2: writer for his memoir, and that was also in his equation.

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Speaker 2: So he had been like, Wow, the sensibility here is

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Speaker 2: kind of interesting, and it's a different kind of storytelling,

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Speaker 2: and it's it really seems to be presenting a voice

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Speaker 2: rather than just analyzing, and it's I don't know, non

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Speaker 2: judgmental about certain aspects of the lifestyle, and something about it.

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Speaker 2: He liked it. And then when I met him, I

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Speaker 2: just made a couple of jokes and he liked the jokes.

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Speaker 2: Like the joke I made is with George. He was

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Speaker 2: going through some legal stuff and I said, he had

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Speaker 2: all this paperwork and I said, you should print it

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Speaker 2: all on underwear and then just wear that on stage

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Speaker 2: and sell them and call them legal briefs. And he said,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so funny. He didn't do it,

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Speaker 2: but I think he liked that idiotic idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was going to say, that's such a George

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Speaker 1: Clinton thing to that's how you had him.

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Speaker 2: It's like entrepreneurial insanity. And he's like, oh and so

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Speaker 2: so something about it he liked. So I did that book.

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Speaker 2: We did all of our books and George, and as

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Speaker 2: I finished up that book, I remember sitting in the

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Speaker 2: car with Archiivy, George's right hand guy, and when we

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Speaker 2: were finishing up George's book and saying, I'd really love

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Speaker 2: to do Slies book. And the feeling at the at

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Speaker 2: that point was I don't know, man, like, it's not

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Speaker 2: like a super constructed situation. Over there right now. The

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Speaker 2: architecture is weird. He's still using obviously at that time,

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Speaker 2: which means that most of the goal in an average

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Speaker 2: day is to manage that part of life. And I

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Speaker 2: was connected to his camp and the people were great.

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Speaker 2: They were very nice, and he was very receptive. It

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Speaker 2: just didn't come together in a structured way. We would

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Speaker 2: make agreements. I think journalists have written about this, so

219
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Speaker 2: I'm not telling tales out of school. But to do

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Speaker 2: an interview, someone would say we need a thousand upfront,

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Speaker 2: and I would say, no, no, no, no, no, We're talking

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Speaker 2: about a partnership on a book deal. I'm not This

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Speaker 2: is not how this works. I'm not buying today's you

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Speaker 2: know delivery.

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Speaker 1: You're basically saying that artists now charged for interviews.

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Speaker 2: I think they needed money so he could score. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is just my interpretation, and that they knew, as

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Speaker 2: the people who were helping him, that the main goal

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Speaker 2: was to get cash for that day. And it was

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Speaker 2: very shortsighted and very short term. So we wrote up

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Speaker 2: a bunch of agreements and they all collapsed. We'd start

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Speaker 2: toadline them to make them more professional, and I'd say, well,

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Speaker 2: I'll gree to this, but not to this, and then

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Speaker 2: it just never happened. And I would say my wife

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Speaker 2: every year, I'm still trying for this. I mean, George

236
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Speaker 2: is still optimistic. He says he'll connect me to this

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Speaker 2: new guy who's with him or this person, but I

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Speaker 2: don't know. It just doesn't seem like it's a doable thing.

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Speaker 2: Then in twenty nineteen, Arlene, who had been Sly's girlfriend

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Speaker 2: in the eighties and sort of re entered the camp.

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Speaker 2: She had broken up a Sly gone and worked in

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Speaker 2: the legal industry, gotten married, built a straight life such

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Speaker 2: as it was, and then came back in as a

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Speaker 2: kind of management helper. So she was able to help

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Speaker 2: him execute certain kinds of correspondence, or to process things,

246
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Speaker 2: or to say to him the practical part. She was

247
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Speaker 2: really strong, I'm like, you can't forget to do this

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Speaker 2: thing by Thursday, or if you can't, we got to

249
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Speaker 2: ask for send a note saying we need more time,

250
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Speaker 2: you know that kind of stuff. So she called me

251
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Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, and I guess it had come to

252
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Speaker 2: her attention that this book had been on the table,

253
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Speaker 2: and she was very positive about it. And then I

254
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Speaker 2: hung up and told my wife, Oh my god, I

255
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Speaker 2: think it might happen, like there's a real infrastructure. Then

256
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Speaker 2: they disappeared for six months, and I was despondent and

257
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Speaker 2: I thought, okay, well, this is the final nail in

258
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Speaker 2: the coffin. I later learned that when they resurfaced that

259
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 2: it was because he was getting clean, and she didn't

260
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Speaker 2: think there was any way he could do the book

261
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Speaker 2: if he was still using. Plus he had immediate health

262
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Speaker 2: issues as he was trying to get clean. When he

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Speaker 2: got clean at the end of nineteen she called me again,

264
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Speaker 2: so we agreed, We got contract ready, We signed to

265
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Speaker 2: do the book and immediately into COVID and I thought

266
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Speaker 2: COVID would kill it, and it's in the crib. As

267
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 2: it turned out, COVID really helped it because everyone was

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Speaker 2: in one place. She didn't have to go to her

269
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Speaker 2: office every day, so she could be with Sly more

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Speaker 2: at his house, keeping him focused and explaining to him

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Speaker 2: what it would take to do this. And it was

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Speaker 2: a different process than the usual book. If you and

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Speaker 2: I do a book, or I do a book with George,

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Speaker 2: it's a certain number of long conversations. Because of Sly's

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Speaker 2: health and his energy, we were capped at fifteen twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes sometimes, so we had to do a lot of

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Speaker 2: conversations that were shorter, which I don't think would have

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Speaker 2: happened without her, because she would, you know, remind him

279
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Speaker 2: we got to do this for the book, this is important,

280
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Speaker 2: Let's keep doing this. And we got a runway in

281
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Speaker 2: that first six months inside of the COVID cylinder where

282
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Speaker 2: he really committed to the process, which was great. I mean,

283
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Speaker 2: she has a credit on the book for that reason.

284
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Speaker 2: It says created in collaboration with her, because truthfully, had

285
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Speaker 2: she not helped to keep him focused in those early months,

286
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Speaker 2: it could have easily dissipated. And that was how it happened.

287
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Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of the backstory. And the weird part,

288
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Speaker 2: like you said initially, is that the weird fiction book

289
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Speaker 2: that came out of my not wanting to confront this

290
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Speaker 2: person's real life ended up very round about leading me

291
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Speaker 2: back to the door of this memoir, so that it

292
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Speaker 2: was It's strange. It's one of those things in life

293
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Speaker 2: that you know, who knows. I like to think that

294
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Speaker 2: Rich knew. My theory is that Rich knew all this

295
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Speaker 2: stuff fifteen years ago and he figured it all out,

296
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Speaker 2: and he had it all mapped, and he's like, Ben

297
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Speaker 2: wrote this novel, but if I do this, a mirror

298
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Speaker 2: will be able to do this, and eventually Ben, we'll

299
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Speaker 2: get back to the memoir. So in my mind, this

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Speaker 2: is already planned.

301
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Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably knew it was going to happen. This

302
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 1: is so weird. Even after I finished reading it, I

303
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 1: was like, well, I guess he'll really do Slies book,

304
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Speaker 1: like for real, Like I always knew it was going

305
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Speaker 1: to happen, which I don't know if you ever felt

306
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Speaker 1: like it was never going to happen or whatever, So I.

307
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Speaker 2: Thought it wouldn't. And then again because of the nature

308
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Speaker 2: of his life now, which I didn't really know. I

309
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,160
Speaker 2: had heard all the stories that you had heard, and

310
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Speaker 2: we had heard them all. I didn't know what the

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Speaker 2: person would be able to do, and I was really

312
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Speaker 2: pleasantly surprised. I mean, his physical condition is iffy. Mentally

313
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Speaker 2: he was good. I had heard all the stories that

314
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Speaker 2: you had heard of him. One sentencing journalists or you know,

315
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 2: having an answering machine message that said did you call

316
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 2: and then it would just hang up on the people

317
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 2: or whatever. Not a super accessible guy. But I think

318
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Speaker 2: that double gatekeeper thing of George and Arlene made him

319
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Speaker 2: at least provisionally trust the process, which is always his

320
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Speaker 2: issue being ill used or feeling like he was ill

321
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Speaker 2: used by media for so many years and made the

322
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Speaker 2: poster boy of you know, junkie failure and lost promise

323
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Speaker 2: and all this kind of stuff that really bugged him.

324
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Speaker 2: I think he needed to understand that it wasn't coming

325
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Speaker 2: from that side because his back was up. I think

326
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Speaker 2: his back was up for decades in some ways. And

327
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Speaker 2: then to get to the real guy, who can be

328
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Speaker 2: kind of gentle and funny and playful as well as

329
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Speaker 2: all those other things. I mean, he certainly can be

330
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Speaker 2: difficult and stubborn. That provisional trust was really important.

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Speaker 1: For those of us that aren't familiar with how memoirs work.

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Speaker 1: Is this the same as an autobiography? Like, you know,

333
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Speaker 1: because even when you first approached me, I was dead

334
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Speaker 1: set against it because I was like, well, dude, like

335
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Speaker 1: I just turned forty, Like why am I at the

336
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Speaker 1: end of my life now? Like I'm thinking that autobiographies

337
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 1: are for anyone that has a six on the left

338
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Speaker 1: digit of their age and they have something worthy to

339
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Speaker 1: look back at. And I'm like why am I looking

340
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Speaker 1: in the rear view mirror, you know, right right after

341
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Speaker 1: undone comes out or whatever.

342
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Speaker 2: Like, I think that the question is more about it

343
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Speaker 2: partly is what you're saying about how much of the

344
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Speaker 2: life that there's memoirs that focus on one aspect of

345
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 2: the life. Patti Smith's books are a great example, where

346
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,439
Speaker 2: she's going to focus on her relationship to Downtown and

347
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 2: maple Thorpe at a certain period in her life, but

348
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 2: it informs the larger story. Autobiographies, generally speaking, are taken

349
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 2: to be the whole life, as much of the life

350
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Speaker 2: as you can do. But I don't know. There's probably

351
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 2: a very smart academic distinction that I don't know. I

352
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: just know it from the actual books that I've worked

353
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Speaker 2: on with you and with other people. And the best

354
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Speaker 2: way I can describe the sly one is that I

355
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 2: did George's and then I did Brian Wilson's book with him,

356
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 2: and those It's not I wouldn't say in a kind

357
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,680
Speaker 2: of glib way that it's a combination of those two,

358
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: but there are some ways in which it is an

359
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 2: interesting midpoint between those two. Obviously, I thought, for funk purposes,

360
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 2: George is the New Testament slies the Old Testament. So

361
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 2: there's that kind of idea too of your you go

362
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: backwards in time and you do the New Testament version.

363
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 2: With George, you get p funk and highly conceptual narra

364
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 2: driven funk, and a lot of characters and a real

365
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: good awareness of how cartoons work in Davy Crockett caps

366
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. George's version and then

367
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 2: sly version was the version that was the Old Testament

368
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 2: that's maybe a little bit more earnest and yoke to

369
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 2: the time and had to burn out so something new

370
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: could exist. So I thought about George a lot. And

371
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 2: then Brian Wilson was somebody who had very clear mental

372
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: illness that he was struggling with as well as substance problems.

373
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 2: I think for Slyes more substance issues, but it really

374
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,919
Speaker 2: changed the shape in the nature of his memory. And

375
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 2: so in the Brian book we said, right at the beginning,

376
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 2: we're gonna have to deal with that forthrightly. We're gonna

377
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 2: have to talk about in some way how memory works

378
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 2: and doesn't work. Because you, for any of us, I mean,

379
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: you were young and you have a great memory, but

380
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is I don't remember many

381
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 2: many things of my own life, and I'm I live

382
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: a relative of the clean, boring life, and there's a

383
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: lot that I just can't recover as I get older.

384
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 2: Let alone, if you're eighty and you had sixty years

385
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 2: of fame and drugs, it's not the worst drug in

386
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 2: a way, is fame. And so I really wanted to

387
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 2: think through that with him. And so going back and

388
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: asking an eighty year old to reimagine what was the

389
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 2: sixty year old you? What was the forty year old you?

390
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 2: What was the twenty year old you? That's a bizarre exercise.

391
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: Do you remember the first question that you asked him?

392
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: The first question that I asked him when we were

393
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 2: writing the proposal was I was just trying to loosen

394
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 2: him up, and I asked about Woodstock and it didn't

395
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: take because it was I don't think it's that interesting

396
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 2: to him in some way, because there's the life lived

397
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 2: and then the life remembered. And I don't know if

398
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 2: he knew, you know, you just played the gig and

399
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,360
Speaker 2: then later it's a legend.

400
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: Like did he not know that that was the paradigm

401
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: shift of his life?

402
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 2: He knew the next day. He knew the concert was

403
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: a big deal. But one of the things he said

404
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: that was interesting is that when the movie came out

405
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 2: the next year and he was a movie star, that

406
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: was a secondary acceleration that maybe people now don't fully

407
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 2: understand that they Yeah, the movie for us is the concert.

408
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 1: The movie is what Mae Woodstock Woodstock. I don't think

409
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: Woodstock made woodstuck at all. I totally agree, and I

410
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: think the idea of Woodstock.

411
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 2: He felt that in the moment, like to us, we

412
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: see through the movie like your film, to the event,

413
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: and so we're we're thinking, we're seeing how important the

414
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: event was. What we're actually seeing is that the movie

415
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: brought it to people's attention. The first question I asked

416
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: him where I got a real answer was we were

417
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 2: just kind of loosening him up, and I said, just

418
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: tell me a random story, just something funny that happened.

419
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 2: And he told me a story that I didn't think

420
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 2: would make the book at the time it did, which

421
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 2: is about giving a stolen car to Eda James, where

422
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: he I didn't know she was part of the story.

423
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I knew that was another drug troubled you know, superstar,

424
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 2: but I didn't. I wasn't aware of any crossover between them.

425
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: I knew weird crossovers like her singing you know Paul

426
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: Simon songs, or laying on the floor of the studio

427
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 2: as people would walk by for sugar on the floor,

428
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: but I didn't. I didn't know that she can slide crossover.

429
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 2: And evidently they were friendly and she dropped by and

430
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 2: they were hanging out and probably using and she asked

431
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 2: if she could borrow a car, and he said, no,

432
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: I'll just give you one. So he went out and

433
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: he gave her a car. She was driving with a

434
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,719
Speaker 2: boyfriend to Texas. I believe I may get some details

435
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 2: of this wrong. It's in the book. And then he

436
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: gets a call a couple weeks later and they're in

437
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 2: Texas and she says, I got pulled over. The car

438
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: was stolen, and he's like, oh, I didn't know that,

439
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: And he said, you didn't mention me, did you, And

440
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: she said, no, no, no e. The boyfriend I was

441
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: driving with like, he was very straight about it, but

442
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: didn't mention you. He just said, we bought this from someone,

443
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: We had no idea, we have the right papers. And

444
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: then I said, so, you didn't know it was stolen.

445
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: He's like, no, I probably knew. I just got a

446
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: lot of cars. I didn't think of come up, like,

447
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: you don't think that that's gonna happen. You just the papers.

448
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 2: I don't know how it worked back then in California,

449
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: but whatever the fake papers were to make it look

450
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: like title had been transferred, he thought they were good enough.

451
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: And so it was a very random story to me,

452
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 2: and I thought at the time, I don't think this

453
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: is gonna make it, because I don't really know where

454
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 2: this fits into the larger story. It turned out that

455
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 2: it did fit into this kind of craziness period where

456
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: fame just takes you. You don't have introspection. It's like somebody,

457
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: I try very hard not to read for any of

458
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: our books. If I do with you a book I

459
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: do with anyone else, not to read any reviews, because

460
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 2: in my mind, you can choose who you are as

461
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: a writer, as a musician, as a filmmaker. I try

462
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: not to read anything because I think once I'm done,

463
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: I kind of don't care about people's opinions, and I

464
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 2: know some will be good, some will be bad. Sometimes

465
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: people will get it, sometimes they won't. But one slipped

466
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: through and it was kind of irritating. And I won't

467
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: say where, And I don't begrudge. I mean, I don't

468
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 2: care if people can like things or not. Some people

469
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 2: are loving it and some people have problems with it. Right,

470
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: somebody talked about the middle and how they felt like

471
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: the middle was kind of They didn't say uninsightful, but

472
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 2: they said, this is just like rehearsing or restaging talk

473
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: show appearances. In my mind, there was a real good

474
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 2: reason for that, because when you get mega famous like

475
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: he got mega famous, so much of it is you're

476
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: seeing yourself how you are seen. You're trying to control

477
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: the stories that are told about you and thinking every day,

478
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: well is that me? Is that true? And I'm sure

479
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: even like I mean, look, you're famous, you know, And

480
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: then you think back to him on the couch next

481
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 2: to Muhammad Ali, and you think, I'm paraphrasing what you

482
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: would think. You think I'm famous now in twenty twenty three,

483
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: think of being those guys in nineteen seventy five, when

484
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: there's three channels, there's a finite number of black celebrities,

485
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: and these are the two arguably biggest. I mean, maybe

486
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: Stevie wonder, but at that time, at that place, this

487
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: is a fame of like I can't even fathom it,

488
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, to be Muhammad Ali in sly fighting over

489
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 2: what the responsibility of a black entertainer is on Mike

490
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: Douglas is like mind boggling to me. So I think

491
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: that he really wanted to and he was interested in

492
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: seeing old appearances, going back and looking at old performances.

493
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: He really wanted to think, well, what was it to

494
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: be me?

495
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: Then you're saying that he looked that he had to

496
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: recap and watch old interviews and all that stuff to

497
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: sort of jog his memory.

498
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's not just jog memory. Even before me, he

499
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 2: would do it, he Arlene said. He always was kind

500
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 2: of interested. I think to try to be to whatever

501
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: degree someone is a student of their own existence. Like

502
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: he would always watch when things started to appear on

503
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: YouTube twenty years ago. He'd be really interested. He'd be like, oh,

504
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 2: that's the midnight special show when we watch, Oh, I

505
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: remember there was this camera person who kept darting back

506
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 2: and forth and tessing me off, you know, like I

507
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: couldn't focus, or oh I remember there was a person

508
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: in the audience that I thought looked like this person

509
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: not to jog his memory, but to think I was

510
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: so documented for a period of my life in print,

511
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: on radio, on TV. What was that? It just was

512
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: so weird, you know, like was that even me? It's

513
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: a kind of interesting existential question. And then folded into

514
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: that the fact that he took arguably the most private

515
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 2: thing being getting married, and he did it in the

516
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: most public forum that you could ever imagine. So he

517
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: both embraced and was at the mercy of a lot

518
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: of this kind of fame thing. I mean, you know,

519
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 2: obviously when you and I talk, you have many versions

520
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,479
Speaker 2: of this all the time, and so I also wanted

521
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 2: to be very clear in the book that certain things

522
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 2: could not be remembered clearly. And sometimes he would say, well,

523
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: I've heard this story from other people. That's not how

524
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: I remember it, you know, I heard that this is

525
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: how this went down, or this is what happened at

526
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: this place. I don't either I don't remember it or

527
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: I remember it differently, And it is all part of

528
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: the story. But when you write a memoir, you're not

529
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: doing journalistic research in the sense that I'm not asking everybody,

530
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 2: I'm asking him. And so same thing with Brian when

531
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: I did Brian Wilson's book, Mike Love had a book

532
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: coming out at the same time. Well, Brian's book was

533
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: Brian's version, Mike's book was Mike's version. They differed on

534
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: quite a bit because they remember it differently for a

535
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: variety of reasons. So, yeah, that's the interesting thing to

536
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: try to kind of.

537
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. What if you're given

538
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: a recollection that you know didn't happen in that particular way,

539
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: and I mean something factual, like you know, so Riot

540
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: came out in nineteen seventy four, and like, do you

541
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: correct the person like no, I actually came out in

542
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: seventy or.

543
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: To some degree, I would correct them to some degree.

544
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't you here's the problem you're You're

545
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: I serve at the pleasure of the king. I'm co writing.

546
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: It's not about me, It's about that person. And so

547
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: they are. They tell me, either overtly or sometimes they

548
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: don't articulate it overtly, but they explain that they want

549
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: to tell their whole life and sometimes that this book

550
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: was definitely not like this. But sometimes books are score

551
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: settlers where they say I got to get back at

552
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: that guy who wronged me. Sometimes they say, I want

553
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: people to understand how.

554
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: People would do that. Yeah, I mean a Gene Simmons thin.

555
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he not really, I mean I think Gene.

556
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: I think Gene was not a score settler. I think

557
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: Gene's it just as a side note, he wanted to reiterate. No,

558
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 2: I don't I didn't find him that petty, but I

559
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: think he always wanted to reiterate that Kiss had a

560
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: clean half and a not clean half. You know, there

561
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: were members of the band that drank and used, and

562
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: then there were two members of the band that did not,

563
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: And Jane was one of the.

564
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: Clean and Tho he was a.

565
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: Non user, straight edge, And so in his mind he

566
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: wanted to be clear that a lot of the decisions

567
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: got made just the way the decisions got made. To say, yes,

568
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: a lot of things were equal. We were abandoned in

569
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: some ways, we were not abandoned equals because when sane

570
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: strategy had to happen that you know, I did that,

571
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: But no, I mean I think everyone gives you a charter.

572
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: So for example, Mometa, when you and Rich talked to

573
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: me about it, it was exactly what you said A

574
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: few minutes ago, I'm forty what am I doing? And

575
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: so as we strategized that through, we came to this

576
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: idea of the meta, which was, well, let's make a

577
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: book and blow up a book at the same time.

578
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: Let's do a book. But Rich will be in there

579
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: telling you this didn't happen in New York. What are

580
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: you talking about? We were in California, don't you remember,

581
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: And we put a Rich getting on you about memories.

582
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: Riches in the book is a kind of like second voice.

583
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: We also put in emails between me and the absurdly

584
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 2: similarly named Ben Greenberg, the publisher, where we were talking

585
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: about where I would say to him in an email,

586
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: and they were the real emails where I would say

587
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: to him, Amir is an amazing memory. But one of

588
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: the things he's worried about is do people care what

589
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: records he was listening to in ninety two? And then

590
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: he would write back and say, yeah, of course, maybe

591
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: we could do them as a sidebar, and then we

592
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 2: would do that. So every book has that kind of

593
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: pre planning stage. I feel like in this book, I

594
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: think he knew, of course, that there were things that

595
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: were fuzzier to him and things that were sharper I

596
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: was surprised by how sharp they were. Things that were sharp.

597
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: Like he sometimes would say, oh, we were staying in

598
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: this hotel in New York and the eighteenth floor, and

599
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: I would say what, and he remembered the room number,

600
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: you know, and then like maybe the next time you

601
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: would have to kind of say to him. You'd say, oh,

602
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: remember the show on Milwaukee just before Grant Park and

603
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: he would say where, And then you'd say Milwaukee, you

604
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 2: played the show and and then he would say, oh, Ryan, right,

605
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: I remember it's the one where they brought me out

606
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: in the boat. Okay, fine, so then we're there. A

607
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: lot of it is that you got to situate it.

608
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's a strange task. You don't

609
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: just say to somebody nineteen seventy three go. They're like,

610
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: maybe you would you have that kind of memory, But

611
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: like you don't say to somebody nineteen seventy three go

612
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 2: and they say, okay. So on January first, I remember

613
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: I was buying a room and at this dollar, it's

614
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: not unless you're Mary Lou Henner, you can't really do.

615
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: That right exactly, So most people.

616
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, so I would correct I guess just

617
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: the quick answer to the question is, yeah, you don't

618
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: want the person to be in embarrassed if he slipped

619
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: up and said while I was doing stand in nineteen nineteen,

620
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: yeahly that But like some things are some things are

621
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: interesting why they're misplaced, and then you might leave it

622
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: slightly misplaced because it's interesting why he sees it that way.

623
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: So I believe maybe in nineteen ninety six, nineteen ninety seven,

624
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: maybe there was an author. His name is Joel Salvin,

625
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: and he released an oral history book basically talking to

626
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: everyone in Sly's world except for Slye. And this includes

627
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 1: like Bubba, like you know, like what they would call

628
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: the handlers. And it's sort of weird because I took

629
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: Selvin's kind of book as law, and now that I'm

630
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: doing my own unearthing with this slide documentary, I'm now realizing, like,

631
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: oh wait a minute, maybe this person wasn't a villain

632
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: that I was led to believe. Like I kind of

633
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: came into my own research, would Sly you know, sort

634
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: of holding Selvin's oral history book, which is a very

635
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: considerary and kind of fiery story, like that version of

636
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: Sly's life to me, was like the last half of

637
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: Boogie Nights if you will. Do you know if he

638
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: was at all aware of that book or what his

639
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: response was.

640
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: I think he definitely was aware. And I had the

641
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: same weird process that you did, but maybe in reverse,

642
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: which is that as a mega fan, a super fan

643
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: of flies, I read everything in its day. So I

644
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 2: read every article, every oral history, every I would find

645
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: scraps of things on the Internet where somebody's like this kid,

646
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: John Dax, who we mentioned in the book because it

647
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: was an interesting thing, he had a fan site. I

648
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: think he was a student, so I flew him out.

649
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: Was trying to figure out He had this label Fatta

650
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: Data at the time, and he was trying to figure

651
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: out can I release my own records on the internet?

652
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: What is the Internet? So he flew John out, and

653
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: so I just tracked all that stuff. I think I

654
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: actually interviewed John for a magazine at the time because

655
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 2: it was so fascinating, and I was obsessed with Sly

656
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 2: for this book, I had to try to strategically forget

657
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: all that. Now it's all in my mind, so I

658
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: have all those stories in there. Anyway, when I was

659
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: talking to Sly sometimes I would ask him, not ask

660
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: him directly about the stories, but I would say exactly

661
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: what you just said, like, oh, there's this, you know,

662
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: there's a version of this where so and so had

663
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: a gun at this place. And he would either pick

664
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: up in the thread of it, in which case it

665
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: was really interesting because it would mean that he did

666
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: remember it. Sometimes he would say, oh, I know that

667
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: person told that story, but that's not how it happened,

668
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 2: which would keep me into the fact that might not

669
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: have been literally Joel's book. Maybe someone told him that

670
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: after the book came out. Oh, Eddie Chin saying that

671
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: this thing happened or whatever, and so, yeah, I mean

672
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: I think he definitely. One thing to think about the

673
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: oral history is that it's a reflection of stories that

674
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: were being told. It's not. I mean, Joel did a

675
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: great job. I really liked that book for what it is,

676
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: But as you say, it's a snapshot. Those are stories

677
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: that people were dining out on, some of them for decades. Anyway.

678
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: Like if you were if you were Bobba, you were

679
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: telling that story to every girl you met and every

680
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: person who you were waiting in an airport with, you know,

681
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: like that was your thing. Then Joel does the project,

682
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: and you also tell it in the book where it

683
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: becomes formal.

684
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: Your stick you're fat.

685
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: I mean, because that's their claim to fame. One thing

686
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 2: I find with all these books is that everybody remembers

687
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: being with famous people, but famous people don't remember being

688
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: with anyone, meaning.

689
00:36:54,640 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: That oh my god, you know you you know. But

690
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: there's a billion people that come up with these like crazy,

691
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: crazy like recollections of things that we've done, and all

692
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: I can be is like, oh yeah, and they're just like,

693
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: you don't remember, do you? And it makes me feel

694
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: bad because I feel like, then in their eyes, I

695
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: seem inauthentic, you know what I mean.

696
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: It's not inauthentic, it's the opposite. I mean I think that.

697
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: So I tried, like I said, to not I think

698
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 2: your film is very different. And we talked about this before.

699
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: We keep a wall between them because one is Sly's

700
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: version of what he remembers in his events. And then

701
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: you're obviously reaching out like Joel did, but in a

702
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: different way to a variety of people. First of all,

703
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: everybody is literally a different perspective. You're standing here, they're

704
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: standing there, They're looking this angle you're looking this angle.

705
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: So they might say, oh, it was the day of

706
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 2: that helicopter crashed because they see the helicopter going down

707
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: on this side. You never saw, so it's not part

708
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: of your experience. Everyone, if anyone ever met Sly, they

709
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 2: they know it, they remember it, it's meaningful to them,

710
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 2: and they start to build from it. He only remembers

711
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: a fraction of those. He remembers some when he was young,

712
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: when the people were more famous than him. That's interesting,

713
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: you know, like if he was writing Come On and Swim,

714
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: he's dealing with people. He's a kid. He's dealing with

715
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: artists and producers and label executives who are above him.

716
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: So those memories are clear in a certain way. But

717
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: at some point there's no traction on most of these stories.

718
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: And sometimes, like you just explained, you can recharge that

719
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: memory if you give context and you say, oh, no,

720
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: this was just before that show where the cops came

721
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: in and arrested you, and he'll say, oh, yeah, yeah,

722
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: that lady on the court. I do remember that conversation,

723
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: but what did we talk about? And then other times

724
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: they these people are possessive of those stories because they're

725
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 2: so important to them. I have my own version of that,

726
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: which is Eric Bagosian, the playwright and monologist, and he

727
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: was an actor. He was in talk radio with Oliver Stone.

728
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: Movie years and years years ago. I was a young

729
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: reporter and he came to Miami to do some kind

730
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: of event and I went to his hotel and did

731
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: the interview. This was a junket and we had extra time,

732
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: and on the spot, I thought it would be funny,

733
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: just just I don't know why. I just thought it

734
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: would funny to go out on the balcony of his

735
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: hotel and take a bunch of pictures like we were

736
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: friends on vacation. So we held beers and we looked

737
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: like we were laughing, and he pointed out and I pointed,

738
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: in just stupid shit. Ten years later, I was in

739
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: New York and he had a book signing and I

740
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: took those photos and I went to the book signing

741
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: and I got to the front and I a purpose,

742
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: like as a performance, I said Eric, And he looked

743
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: at me and clearly he didn't have any idea who

744
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: I was, and he said I'm sorry, and I said,

745
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: I looked Crestfall and I said, Eric, it's me and

746
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: I showed him the pictures that I said, we're friends.

747
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: You don't remember, and then after like ten sears, after

748
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: ten seconds, I said, I'm just walking with you. I

749
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 2: was a reporter in Miami and we took these pictures.

750
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: I thought it was really funny and like a good

751
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: illustration of this. And then the funny anything I was

752
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 2: thinking about the other day is he has almost certainly

753
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: forgotten that, because even that, which to me is like

754
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 2: the end of a great story, to him was probably nothing.

755
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: Again, do you remember that moment at all?

756
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: I think when I showed in the pictures and I

757
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 2: explained to him, He's like, yeah, I do, I do remember.

758
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if he was telling the truth. He

759
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: probably did, but then he's probably forgotten it all over again.

760
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: And so it's it's such an interesting thing with fame.

761
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: And this is what I was saying before about Sly

762
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 2: at the height of his fame, because you almost become

763
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: one of those people you don't remember meeting. I don't.

764
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's too spacey a way to

765
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: put it, but when you are who's famous everywhere all

766
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: the time, you don't necessarily remember. I mean, I know

767
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: you don't, and you have the best memory of anybody.

768
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 2: I know every stage you've been on, every media you did,

769
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: every person you saw, every radio you know, conversation you've had.

770
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: You remember a lot of them. But how can you

771
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 2: remember them all they blend together? You need space for like,

772
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: what are the names of the people in my family?

773
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: You know?

774
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 2: Oh?

775
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's the setback. Like I can tell

776
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: you the entire season thirteen color scheme of the way

777
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: that the Soul train lights blinked. But if you were

778
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: to put me right now in front of like all

779
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: my first cousins.

780
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: Yep, I think that's exactly that. And the weirdness of

781
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: flies memory. The other thing, just the last thing I'll

782
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: say here is that as a fan, one of the

783
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: things that I wanted more of and didn't get, I

784
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,479
Speaker 2: wouldn't say I was disappointed. And you said something about

785
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: this recently that really struck me is that I wanted huge,

786
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 2: brilliant insights about how every song was created. The one

787
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: thing I've realized over time is that artists make the work.

788
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: They don't necessarily analyze the work. If you're Elton John

789
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: or Paul McCartney, or you're Brian Wilson, which I know,

790
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: and I say, hey, let's talk about album and this song,

791
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 2: and they say, oh, is that song on that album?

792
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: I thought it was on this other album, And I think,

793
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 2: oh my god, they're old, they're faltering. They don't know

794
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: which record this song was on. The truth is that no,

795
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: they just made the song and a bandmate or a

796
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: producer or a label executive or somebody said, let's up

797
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: put that out this year, let's hold that for this

798
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: thing because we think it pairs well with this, or

799
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: who knows it's a B side, and later it's released.

800
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 2: They're not the marketers of their own life. To some degree,

801
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: they aren't. Some degree they're not. And I've known this,

802
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: even with you for doing liner notes, Like you said,

803
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the things you remember perfectly. And then

804
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: sometimes you'll say, oh, wait, let me check. I think

805
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: that came out on this compilation. I'm not positive. Hold on,

806
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: let me check. And then you check and you come

807
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 2: back and you say, yay, yeah, that's what it was.

808
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 2: I remember now. So that's really interesting. The artist is

809
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 2: not necessarily the best critic of the artist's work. That's

810
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: left to ner me to listen to every record and say,

811
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: oh man, did you hear that thing? And let me

812
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: have it all? He drops his voice out for a

813
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: tenth of it. He was just making the record, So

814
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: it is that's very interesting, and I've learned that with

815
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: every creative artist. I think some are more You and

816
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: Little Stemen are more on the analytical side, just because

817
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: of personality, meaning that you do both things. There is

818
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 2: a part of you that is analyzing as you make.

819
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: Then there's people maybe and.

820
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: George, why I get accused of that. There's a part

821
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: of me that things about mine. I think that's That's

822
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: one I think about my Wikipedia entry as I.

823
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: Creates, just why you're making a choice, Like like, it's

824
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: not like I don't go to this. I don't consider

825
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: it to be like this person who's a primitive talent.

826
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 2: One thing about Slide that struck me throughout is that

827
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: this is the most trained rock star in the history

828
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: of rock stars. Before Sliding the family Stone. He's a

829
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: producer of hits, a DJ, a hugely popular DJ, and

830
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: a composition student. So when you go to like Beetlestones,

831
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: who kinks you know whatever, John Fogerty, Dylan anybody else,

832
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: those people were like naive stumble in with their guitar

833
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: like elements like the Woods. You know, this guy was trained.

834
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: This is like a professional person before the band ever.

835
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: Hit, Arlene said, three hundred interviews.

836
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the things that happened is that

837
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: because of his energy, as I said, for you, you know,

838
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: you can talk obviously for ninety minutes at a time.

839
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 2: His energy, and I think just the newness of the process.

840
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 2: And frankly, I don't know if this was the case

841
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: for you as much, but it's traumatic to do a

842
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: life story. You are revisiting things. You're thinking of old

843
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: girlfriends and old friends and oh shit, I love that

844
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: house right, Oh my god, that house, and they can

845
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: just think about that. So the way it worked out

846
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 2: is that we did fifteen to twenty minute sessions for

847
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: the most part. Sometimes he would beg out early say

848
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: I don't feel well or I'm tired. She'd go back.

849
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: I'd say to her, then you got to go back later.

850
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: He was right on the brink of talking about Jim

851
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: Brown coming to the apartment in LA and calling the

852
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: girls out, and he had to go out and tell

853
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: Jim Brown go away, these aren't your girls, or you

854
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: know whatever. The story was he started telling that and

855
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: he didn't finish. Can you go back later and get that?

856
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 2: And she'd say, yay, I could do that. So she'd

857
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: go back. While she was talking to him about whatever,

858
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 2: you know, planting planters outside of his house, she'd say

859
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 2: to him, can you tell me the James Brown story again?

860
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 2: And she'd get tape on that and send it to me.

861
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: So she would sometimes go back and complete. We ended

862
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 2: up with hundreds of sessions. They're just very short and

863
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: not very short. They're fifteen to twenty five for the

864
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: most part. Sometimes he'd got a lot of energy, and

865
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: sometimes he'd get one question in and something would bug him.

866
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 2: The interesting thing is he'd get in something would bug him,

867
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 2: he'd stop, and then the next day or the day after,

868
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 2: I would see what it was that would bugg who

869
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: was bugging him, because he'd have a really interesting story

870
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: about Rudy love or something, you know, like just go

871
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: back to him. So, yeah, that's so a lot of short.

872
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: Sessions you've done, George Clinton, You've done sly. Yeah, we

873
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: briefly mentioned, but like you know, the Little Stephen story

874
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: is probably my favorite, only because when you hear the

875
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 1: audio book, you know, it's it's really like he's talking

876
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: to you, you know, that sort of thing, and Brian

877
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: Wilson like, what else is left for you?

878
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 2: I mean, little Stephen was great. And that's a case

879
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 2: where I'm credited as an editor, not a co writer,

880
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: because he's a real writer. He writes political pieces and

881
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: he writes, you know, songs, obviously. But so his take

882
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: on it, when we were talking before about what a

883
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: memoir is was a little different when you say, how

884
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: can you do this without adult supervision? In his mind,

885
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: he is the adult supervision because he's and he also

886
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: has that part of the brain we said, where he's

887
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: an analyst of himself as he goes. But he was great,

888
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,919
Speaker 2: and he his whole point was, well, what does any

889
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: of this mean. We're doing all these things, We're making songs,

890
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: we're touring like the world is in crisis, dude, Like

891
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: we gotta we gotta figure this out. And he also

892
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: was he's a historian, obviously, you know, he's done rock

893
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: and roll Hall of Fame stuff. You know, he's a

894
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: real serious historian of everything. So he was really interested

895
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: in how rock and roll changed through the sixties and

896
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: then the monoculture exploded, and you have all these subcultures,

897
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: and what does that mean. It doesn't just mean that

898
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: you're a boomer classic rocket here. You're actually looking at

899
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: a time when there was one thing that affected everybody

900
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: and then that stopped happening. In terms of for me,

901
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: I just don't know. I mean, there's so many I

902
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 2: want to do plenty of memoirs outside of music as well,

903
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: but in the music space. I think about the great books,

904
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: the memoirs that I love, and there's a lot of them.

905
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: You know.

906
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm allowed to say omatic because

907
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: we did the book, but that's.

908
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: A great I forgot about us a certain take.

909
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 2: Dylan's book Chronicles, Neil Young's book Shaky, Keith Richard's book,

910
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: Patty Smith's book are great. Ray Davies, Oh there's a

911
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 2: million miles Davis. When I was thinking about the kinds

912
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: of things I would like to do, the three that

913
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: kind of rose in my mind are The Mingus Beneath

914
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 2: the Underdog a great book. I mean, it's outspoken, it's angry,

915
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 2: it's hurt, there's a lot of you know, injury in it,

916
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: and it kind of pairs like if you're dining with

917
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: the assum Mingus book Tonight at Noon. It's named after

918
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: a Mingus song. It's her story about her life with

919
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: Mingus and that she didn't do until the two thousands,

920
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: but she was with him from I think sixty four

921
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: to when he died, and it's about maintaining the legacy

922
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: and trying to get your head around this incredibly difficult,

923
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: brilliant person. So that would be as if then Arlene

924
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: wrote a book or whatever you know about this, like,

925
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 2: this is how this person saw but let me tell

926
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: you what it was to make this person happy in

927
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: their life or try to keep them from being their

928
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: own worst enemy or whatever. It was right the vill

929
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: of Albertine, viv Albertine. It's called She's from the Slits,

930
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,479
Speaker 2: the punk band. I think her book is called Close

931
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: Close Closed Music Music, Music, Boys, Boys, Boys, and it's great.

932
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: It's it's such a good book about how you get

933
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: inside and outsider. You know what it means to be

934
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 2: like a perennial outsider and pullink and fashion and everything.

935
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: And then but in the book you have to bring

936
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: people in in, So how do you do that? That's weird.

937
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: There's an element of that with Sly where Sly is

938
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: such a singular person and such a glorious weirdo in

939
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 2: a way like I use that word of people think

940
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 2: I'm being critical, but I'm not. I'm being complimentary.

941
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: No, that's a compliment.

942
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: Compliment. There's an interview in the book and the guy

943
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 2: from the Guardian ended up interviewing me about this book,

944
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: and he said, oh, I make a cameo in your

945
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 2: book because I'm the journalist that Slide called and said

946
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: he wanted an all albino rock band, and so I

947
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 2: was laughing with him about it, and Sly's theory was

948
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 2: that that's how you eliminate racism with an all albino

949
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: rock and that kind of wavelength. The viv Albertine is

950
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: a version of that, but just being so singular, there's

951
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: no one like you, and how do you then you

952
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 2: become embraced. And then the third when I was thinking

953
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: of him as this very strange book, there's this twentieth

954
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: Central composer named Alec Wilder, and he was a classical composer.

955
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: He did some film and some musicals and some popular

956
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: song and I think the book is called Letters I

957
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: Never Mailed, So the whole book is letters he wrote

958
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: to people in his life who he was too afraid,

959
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: never never said. And there's this it's a really interesting book.

960
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: And there's this Frank Sinatra letter where they were friends

961
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,800
Speaker 2: and then Frank became Frank as famous as Sly becoming

962
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 2: Sly and just walled off, couldn't deal with anybody. So

963
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: he writes this very moving letter like how he just

964
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 2: wants to hang out with him and laugh and laugh

965
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: at how people are stupid and you know, just wanna

966
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 2: be his friend. And it ends with this line, which

967
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: is just so moving. He says to Sinatra, believe it

968
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: or not, I'm still available. All it needs is your

969
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 2: request and my survival. That's the end of the letter

970
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: to Frank. And I just thought, like, it's such a

971
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 2: great book because it's all the things that you don't

972
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: get to say to people. And so I think a

973
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: lot about this. There's stars that I want to work with. Still,

974
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 2: you know, it would be great if whoever, if Stevie

975
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: Wonder really did a real book, if Jagger did a memoir,

976
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 2: if you know, I mean a lot of people did

977
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: first ones that they got older. Maybe you'll do another book,

978
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: another memoir. I mean you've done seven. Maybe another proper memoir.

979
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: Maybe I got to live a life first.

980
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: First you'll be eighty, then one.

981
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: I've exhausted the first forty years. So they but in.

982
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: Terms of like the whales of stardom to get to

983
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of people have done books. It's

984
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: just interesting. I started to think with this sly book

985
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: that there are so many different kinds of books. When

986
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 2: I first went to him with this project, and I

987
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 2: was thinking, because he's such a weirdo, well what if

988
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 2: he pitches me back a book that he says, it's

989
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: just a thousand sentences broken and I'm just gonna say

990
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: a phrase and then you write that down and that's

991
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: the whole book, and I won't do anything else. And

992
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 2: I would have to say, like, yes, sir, mister Stewart,

993
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 2: because you know, like I'm not so one of those

994
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: There's this line that it sounded like it's a line

995
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: that he knew he had said before, but it's so great.

996
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 2: It's like it sounds like the kind of thing you

997
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: say and then you think that was smart later you

998
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 2: say it again. And we used it as the last

999
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: line where he said it's something like human beings we

1000
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: come and go. Some of us have not gone yet,

1001
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 2: and it was just such a wait.

1002
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: Is he still full of those idioms?

1003
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: Yes, but I think that here's a there's a tension

1004
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 2: there he is. And then part of him is like

1005
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: I said it already.

1006
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 3: Like like you know, yeah, like so one quick code

1007
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 3: to the songs that sometimes I would ask what songs

1008
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 3: meant and he did this thing that kind of frustrated me,

1009
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 3: But the more I went on, it fascinated me.

1010
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: Where he would say this, the song means what the

1011
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 2: song means, like everyday people, What does that mean? That's

1012
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 2: what it means everyday people. And I would think, are

1013
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: fucking with me? Like come on? But then when you

1014
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: think about it, he's kind of right that when you

1015
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,439
Speaker 2: get to boil down, you know, he has a whole

1016
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 2: new thing and it's a very complicated record doesn't hit.

1017
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 2: Then he does dance to the music and he realizes

1018
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: the kind of genius of simplicity. You know, he resists

1019
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 2: that song a little because he thought it was kind

1020
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 2: of dumb for his pay grade, you know whatever, like

1021
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 2: it's a hit? What am I doing here? Like I'm

1022
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: not the twist.

1023
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: So he's the master of simplicity, and we overlook it really.

1024
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 2: In simplicity in some of those songs. I like the

1025
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: complexity too. I mean, I like, I don't know if

1026
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: we have time to talk about, you know, the couple

1027
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: favorite songs, but in time is like not simple and

1028
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: it's a fantastic song and everyday people is simple. But

1029
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 2: he would say to me, the song means what it means,

1030
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: and I would think, God, you know, you gotta like

1031
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 2: song and dance me a little or tell me something.

1032
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 2: But then I thought, well, yeah, that is kind of

1033
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 2: what a painter would say or a sculptor would say,

1034
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: or is like, it's not your job to go and

1035
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: analyze it.

1036
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: You made it. It's my job to then say what

1037
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: it means, not yours.

1038
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 2: And then in this book, I can't even say a

1039
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 2: lot of that, like he Weirdly, the mid seventies records

1040
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: he was a little bit more analytical, because I think

1041
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 2: they were more like kind of mission records like heard

1042
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: you missed me from the top down or back on

1043
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: the right Track from the top down. They're kind of

1044
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: mission records like hey, I'm still here right so they

1045
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:40,799
Speaker 2: have a message, and those he was able to say

1046
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 2: a little more about that, even though he didn't always

1047
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: like it. I think back on the right track, there's

1048
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: a kind of like a cleaned up slide, like a

1049
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 2: Smiley cleaned up Vesta slide that he thought, like, man,

1050
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 2: how many the headlines for that album are all kind

1051
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 2: of insulting like a well behaved sly Stone.

1052
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: He's like, come on, for those that might be listening

1053
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: that are new to sly or whatever, briefly tell me

1054
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 1: what are your three favorite SLI songs?

1055
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, as you know, it's an impossible task.

1056
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: That's why I always limited it to three, because.

1057
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: I can't deal with the big hits. They're too big

1058
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 2: to get my head around.

1059
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: No one deals with the hits real real music fans

1060
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:29,760
Speaker 1: like the Filler.

1061
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 2: So I'd say, okay, if I had to pick three,

1062
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 2: I'd say we Love All, which is an outtake from

1063
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 2: It's a sixties high psychedelia high Echo. But it's he

1064
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 2: writes the lyrics that later I would come to see

1065
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 2: as these very compressed, weird sly lyrics like like the

1066
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 2: Funk get Stronger type lyrics where he says it's like

1067
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 2: he does everything, and he says unlike the police and

1068
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: his gone, unlike the judge and his son, unlike the

1069
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 2: local meter man, unlike the late scam, and so they

1070
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 2: are listing out all these things that aren't embracing of everything,

1071
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 2: and that song is such a big, weird spacey sixty sound,

1072
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 2: lots of echo, and so that's really interesting. It doesn't

1073
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: sound like anything else they were doing at the time.

1074
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 2: Very spare in some ways. Second one is probably Sylvester,

1075
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: which is this tiny little.

1076
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: Thing that's not even second right.

1077
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 2: It's this fragment on the last proper album that he

1078
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: did on Input. The one way, it probably was a

1079
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: piece of tape that someone recovered at the thing. He

1080
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 2: his memory of it was he remembered making it and

1081
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 2: he remembered what it was about, but he didn't he

1082
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: wasn't one hundred percent sure that it made a record,

1083
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: because he's like, yeah, that that little thing I recorded,

1084
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 2: And it's this incredibly weird similar to a lot of

1085
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: the songs he made when he was then not famous.

1086
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: There's really weird meditation on Identity where he's going past

1087
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,280
Speaker 2: a mirror and he sees himself and his mother remembers

1088
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: his name, and it's very very intense really for what

1089
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: it is. But it's just him playing a little electric

1090
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 2: pan on singing for thirty seconds.

1091
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 1: That's one of my three.

1092
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 2: It's great. And then the third one was a tie.

1093
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 2: I think in my mind between what was I thinking?

1094
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 2: In my head? Which is the second song. I like

1095
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 2: it for this reason.

1096
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: I'm mad that I can't resist it. Yeah, I don't know,

1097
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: I'm mad. I hate. I hate that only comes from

1098
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: I'm mad I can't resist it. And yet those lyrics

1099
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: are little, are are very clever, and I hate that.

1100
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: I like that song for me.

1101
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 2: The reason that I love it is that in my

1102
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 2: head because when you say what was I thinking, we

1103
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 2: know where it's happening. It's in your head. That's where

1104
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 2: people think, right to add that little part. Whether it's

1105
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: redundant or brilliant or drug album, I don't know for

1106
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 2: sure in my head which in the song when you

1107
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 2: hear it becomes this bizarre hook like you can't you

1108
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 2: can't get it out of your own head. And it's

1109
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 2: very catchy and it's kind of simplest but psychologically complicated.

1110
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: So I don't know's I have a weakness for that.

1111
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 2: But then then when I picked he recorded throughout his

1112
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 2: absence and he and a lot of them are bedroom demos.

1113
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 2: And then some of them he would run into a

1114
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 2: friend or a co creator who would say, oh, I

1115
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 2: like that, let's do that. So in the eighties when

1116
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 2: he would have a song with the barka is a

1117
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: song with Earthwind and Fire. He had the Jesse Johnson

1118
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 2: song obviously, which is not an original. That's a song

1119
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 2: he comes on to as a duet. There's a song

1120
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 2: called the Yellow Light that he did that kind of

1121
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: trickles out on this giant Funkadelic record called First You

1122
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 2: Got to Shake the Gate. It's a triple record from

1123
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen ish and it's heavily treated vocals and just

1124
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 2: like this weird groove song and he's probably saying something

1125
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: but I can't make it out, and he can't make

1126
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: it out anymore, and it's just like this bizarre experiment

1127
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 2: and kind of incomprehensible, really deep funk that I love.

1128
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: It's so weird, weird, and it just appears. It's like

1129
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: those funking Elic records. Those late ones are like party records,

1130
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: like for how late do you have to be before

1131
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: You're absent? Where George was just pulling in everyone. You

1132
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 2: believe it was song and uh, you know whatever, there's

1133
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 2: some old songs, some old zap demo and here somebody

1134
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: finish it. So they're kind of like compilations, not the

1135
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 2: family series, but the big records and so that one,

1136
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: so so, what are so so? Sylvester's one of your three?

1137
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 2: And then what are your other two?

1138
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: I like, I love Life of Fortune and Fame. I'm

1139
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: very upset that my version of it on the roots

1140
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: is Game Theory was passed up like my I have

1141
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: a version of it where I did all the music

1142
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: myself that I think is light years ahead of what

1143
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: wound up being the title track of Game Theory. They

1144
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: basically took my track and in added other stuff to it,

1145
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: which whatever. So Life of Fortune and Fame and you know,

1146
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: we're probably even now one of the reels. We cannot

1147
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: find any of the reels from the Life sessions. And

1148
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: I gotta know what happens at the end of I'm

1149
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: An Animal. I'm an Animal. It's just a weird song,

1150
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 1: and so it's not like I'm gonna and I've asked

1151
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: the band members about it, and they don't have many

1152
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 1: memories about you know. Again, it's just like we won

1153
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: the studio and we recorded it, but for me, that

1154
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: song says everything about Sli's weirdness. It's like a kid

1155
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: sing along, but it's also psychological, like psychedelic. And you

1156
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: know Larry is doing exemplary work on his base that's

1157
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 1: not thumb related. And you know Cynthia shows off her

1158
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: jazz chops like a lot's happening in that song, which

1159
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: is a filler, but it's still super brilliant to me,

1160
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: so I like it a lot.

1161
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: I love that song too, and I think same thing

1162
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 2: where people it's a long time ago, people don't remember

1163
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: what you're hearing on the reels. Is sort of lost

1164
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 2: the time except that it's recorded. To me, that song

1165
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: and this is just me as a fan is I

1166
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 2: always thought those are kinds of reaction songs to dance

1167
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 2: to the music in a way, in a way, and

1168
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 2: that to me, I always heard that song as like,

1169
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: I'll do what you want. I'll song and dance. I'll

1170
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 2: be your song and dance man. And then he has

1171
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: something in there. I forget the exact line where he

1172
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: says my conscience will die I'll be an an. I

1173
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 2: think he says my conscience. Does he say my conscience

1174
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:36,959
Speaker 2: will will die?

1175
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: Off something my conscience is my guide or now I

1176
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: got it.

1177
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 2: I might hear wrong. I might, and maybe the lyric

1178
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 2: is vague, but I always heard it as this weird

1179
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 2: thing of him saying for my purposes, of him saying

1180
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 2: I'll dance. What is it? I'll dance like a kangaroo,

1181
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 2: so to me, And when I thought about it, I

1182
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 2: love that song. It was always like him saying, I

1183
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 2: did hold only thing. I'm a composer. I studied composition.

1184
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 2: I I'm working in the rock space and the pop

1185
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 2: space and the soul space in the whatever the funk

1186
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 2: space is becoming, but I'm a composer. And then it

1187
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 2: kind of falls flat. And then it's like, as we know,

1188
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 2: dance to the music is a massive hit, but also

1189
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 2: kind of a walk in the park for him in

1190
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: a little annoying like why is that how I have

1191
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 2: to introduce myself to America? That don't you know who

1192
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 2: I am or what I'm capable of? And so a

1193
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 2: lot of that tension of that third record is I

1194
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 2: think those two things, and like.

1195
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: Life is him fighting back like I'm smart and you're

1196
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 1: gonna take me on my own terms and it doesn't work.

1197
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 2: Totally, and a lot of musicians that's their favorite record

1198
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 2: life because it's so It's kind of like what I

1199
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 2: was saying at the very beginning, just to bring this

1200
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 2: full circle, which is that you try not to make

1201
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: the work and you don't care about its reception. I

1202
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: don't care. I mean ego care, but I don't really

1203
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 2: care to eat about it. You make your thing, right.

1204
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 2: That is the rare case where someone's so smart is

1205
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: able to share with you. Well, no, it kind of

1206
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: does matter, or at least when there's a tension created

1207
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 2: between all my people telling me how Tayomi Saro loved

1208
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 2: the first record, you know, fell over himself, and yet

1209
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 2: the audience didn't embrace it. Then I do this record

1210
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: and the audience embraces it. Music people are like, eh,

1211
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: not the first record, right, And so you got to

1212
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 2: get back to that space. And finally Stan synthesizes everything.

1213
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I don't know how you feel

1214
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: about this and what you're finding, but I find some

1215
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 2: of the most fascinating answers about Like he said something

1216
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 2: kind of weird and cool, like you couldn't be an

1217
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 2: artist in nineteen sixty eight and not make stand in

1218
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. You know, like you're an antenna when

1219
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 2: you're an artist, so you're seeing and hearing everything, you're

1220
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: bringing it all in. And I thought that was kind

1221
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 2: of fascinating. And that speaks to what we think about Riot,

1222
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 2: which is that is it his depression and his darkness

1223
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 2: or is it the sixties hangover that he's channeling, or

1224
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: is it a mix of those things?

1225
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: Is it? I'm still trying to come to grips with

1226
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 1: my feelings on Riot, because you know, the one the

1227
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: one theme of this movie that I'm doing, which is,

1228
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: you know, something happened in those two years that threw

1229
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: Sly off and the result is Riot. And everyone just

1230
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: keeps talking about how beautiful this record is, how it's

1231
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: their bible, how it's and for me, I don't know,

1232
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: Like if you listen to Space Cowboy, that to me

1233
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: is that's my uncle Willie just pissing his pants drunk,

1234
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 1: like not just giving zero fucks, And I want to

1235
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: know what he's rebelling against.

1236
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 2: So is life? We can end with this, Is life

1237
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 2: your favorite as a musician, That's the one that you

1238
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: get the most kind of joy, excitement, frustration, productive frustration

1239
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 2: from it?

1240
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean life, Life is the first non greatest

1241
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: Hits record that I gravitated towards. It just sounded fun

1242
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: like Dynamite. You hear Great going crazy on the drums,

1243
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 1: and it sounded funny to me, And like Dynamite, sounds

1244
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 1: like Greg falling down the stairs, you know, like the

1245
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:25,959
Speaker 1: Chevy Chase.

1246
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: I think Great Beats record too. I mean that for

1247
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 2: for a lot of reasons, right people, people.

1248
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: Can go to love you like I love.

1249
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 2: So what's so funny is that the musician writer divide,

1250
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 2: I think is exactly illustrated here, which is that I

1251
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 2: moved off of Riot at some point and went to Fresh,

1252
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 2: and I kind of stayed on Fresh. And the reason

1253
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 2: I stayed on Fresh is that in time, you know,

1254
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 2: you put that record on. That first song is just

1255
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 2: like an unbelievable piece of writing. The density of puns

1256
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 2: and his getting his head or around two years too

1257
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 2: long to wait, you know, his own frustration with the

1258
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: label waiting for him switch from Coke to PEP. I mean,

1259
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 2: that thing is like I've never seen or heard lyrics

1260
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,919
Speaker 2: like that, And then it's in the service of these

1261
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 2: very complicated you know, you're stretching out, stretching out, but

1262
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:23,439
Speaker 2: not really losing form. Yet they're not like jams. They're

1263
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 2: still songs, but they're weird songs. Frisky is a.

1264
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: Weird Frisky was probably the first last song that I

1265
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 1: sang as a kid. Yeah yeah, and then it.

1266
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 2: Has one extremely straightforward if you want me to stay.

1267
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 1: Oh.

1268
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 2: I asked him about that, is that He's like, no,

1269
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 2: that's what it is, if you want me to stay?

1270
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: Like does my audience and the people in my life

1271
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 2: want me around? I hear a lot about how I'm

1272
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 2: a problem miss shows like you want me to do this?

1273
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 2: And so in going to Fresh, I always thought, in

1274
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 2: a way my theory, which he didn't necessarily agree with,

1275
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: is that I think Fresh is a darker album than

1276
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 2: Riot because it's a forced smile. Because Riot hits and

1277
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 2: everybody's like, whoa, I don't know what to do with this,

1278
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 2: Like Family, it's a huge pop hit. The records sold great,

1279
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 2: but people listen and it makes them uneasy. It's too spare,

1280
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 2: it's too sparse. There's some throwaways like you say that

1281
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 2: get caught up in the legend, but they're not really

1282
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 2: in my mind full songs even maybe some of them.

1283
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 2: Then you go to Fresh, and I think it did

1284
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: so well riot that Fresh is like the afterglow. But

1285
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 2: to me, it's kind of fake happy, and I love that.

1286
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 2: It's such a weird and in case Asurah is so weird,

1287
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 2: it's like such a bizarre cover. He left the mistake

1288
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 2: in you know the Mistake. It's so I think it's

1289
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 2: so interesting in that period. And then of course as

1290
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 2: we go there's a lot of songs I love and

1291
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 2: a lot that I've learned to appreciate for different reasons.

1292
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 2: But it's so funny to me that around that heart

1293
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 2: of greatest hits, And I think this is probably true.

1294
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 2: Musicians might lean a little earlier when it's the whole

1295
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 2: band and it's everybody doing everything at the highest end,

1296
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 2: and then writers might lean a little later because he's

1297
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: starting to think it through in a different way, like

1298
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 2: he you know, he's that song. Fresh also has quotes

1299
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 2: of earlier songs like there are He starts to work

1300
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 2: in bits of earlier songs, like he did with the

1301
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 2: slowdown thank you Yeah, well.

1302
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 1: Just dance to the music in There's. You know, he's

1303
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 1: very self referential to this. We can get lost in

1304
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: sly circles to Lekals come home.

1305
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, they keep on dancing, is exactly. And then do

1306
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 2: you remember nineteen ninety one or so, Epic put out

1307
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: Fresh and they put out the wrong version, right, they

1308
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 2: took all the wrong masters. And I was after college

1309
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 2: at that time, and I remember going to get it

1310
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 2: and thinking, listening to it and in times mostly the same,

1311
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 2: think if you want me to stay, it's mostly the same.

1312
01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:59,919
Speaker 2: And then whoever was pulling the reels pull the wrong one.

1313
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:01,759
Speaker 2: So every song after that's different.

1314
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 1: No, I won't mean to say is different. The answer

1315
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 1: is way different.

1316
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, they interest different, right, And then but

1317
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 2: I remember listening to Babies Making Babies, which is a

1318
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 2: whole different song.

1319
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's way better.

1320
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 2: And thinking, oh my god, like because again, when he

1321
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 2: reconstructs all that, he's being asked to reconstruct the album

1322
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:25,840
Speaker 2: that came out right that we know of, and like

1323
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 2: you say, you go back and hear the other frisky,

1324
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 2: the other thingful and thoughtful, the other skin I'm in.

1325
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 2: All these things that are different, takes different vibes, different feels,

1326
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 2: and so yeah, that's really the process. Pieces is interesting,

1327
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:43,840
Speaker 2: and he did do some of it, Like there's one

1328
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:48,759
Speaker 2: cool story where he's recording and he doesn't like the guitar,

1329
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 2: and he tells the guy who's recording, I need a

1330
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 2: different guitar, and the guy says okay, and he's waiting

1331
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,640
Speaker 2: for Slide to go get a different guitar. So I

1332
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 2: was like, no, the one I wants down in La.

1333
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 2: So they have to close up shop and go down

1334
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 2: tell he gets the right instrument, and the guy says,

1335
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:03,600
Speaker 2: so i'll patch you him form the beginning, and so

1336
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 2: I was like, no, no, just in the middle, and

1337
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 2: the guy says, what's going to sound totally weird. One

1338
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 2: sound here and then in the middle it switches. I

1339
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 2: don't think that's right, and sly says, trust me, and

1340
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 2: slies right. I forget which song, but it's it just

1341
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 2: creates that weirdness where he had this vision of what

1342
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 2: to risk and what to change and what to take

1343
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: chances on. And that's how we got all this music.

1344
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 2: And he can tell the story and you can figure

1345
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:28,480
Speaker 2: out what it all means.

1346
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 1: Well, there it is, ladies and gentlemen, you can see

1347
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 1: for yourself. Ben Greenman's book with sly Stone, thank you

1348
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: for letting me be myself again said and spelled, and

1349
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 1: it's and it's Manda Green Glory out October seventeenth, on

1350
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 1: our publishing. Now that I now that our company's real,

1351
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:51,640
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say the way Prince would.

1352
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 2: Annunciated to do the actual bird caller.

1353
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 1: Now I'm tired of doing it. I've been doing it.

1354
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: Now just kind of flatten into our instead of oh,

1355
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: I'm tired of yelling it. But thank you for talking

1356
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,439
Speaker 1: to us, man, I really appreciate. And then, you know,

1357
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 1: congratulations on this, on this awesome book, man, Thank.

1358
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 2: You, thank you, And I want to congratulate sly On

1359
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 2: Arlene as well for making this happen. And you're the publisher.

1360
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 2: And here we go into the world.

1361
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:24,640
Speaker 1: Here we go, by the way, ladies and gentlemen. We

1362
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 1: don't do this this often, but you know this is

1363
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 1: a special moment for us. So as a bonus to

1364
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 1: this episode, we're proud to present a clip from an

1365
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: unreleased Slidestone song called coming Back for More. And this

1366
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 1: was recorded, I believe in the mid eighties, and it's

1367
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 1: set up by the song's engineer and the book's co author,

1368
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 1: Arlene Hirschowitz, whose voice you're going to hear before the snippet.

1369
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much. I appreciate it and we'll

1370
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: see you next go around on quest Love Supreme. Thank you. Hi.

1371
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 4: This is Arlene and I was Slyes recording engineer in

1372
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty five. He used a Yamaha d X seven

1373
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 4: and a rolling drum machine to create the song coming

1374
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 4: Back for More. At this time, sly was trying to

1375
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:13,479
Speaker 4: figure out whether he was going to come back into

1376
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,640
Speaker 4: the limelight or not, and so he always put his

1377
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,559
Speaker 4: thoughts into his songs. I hope you like the song

1378
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 4: as much as I do.

1379
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 2: Feels so high, touch the sky, the sky.

1380
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: Finally growing the signs. It makes it easier, too black.

1381
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 1: What's Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio. For

1382
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1383
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.