1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Hello, this is Annie. Oh, this is Samantha, and welcome 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: to stuff I've never told your protection of I heart media. Today. 3 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: We are so excited, so excited because it's time for 4 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: another female first, which means we are joined by our 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: good friend and co worker Eves. Hi. Eves, Hey, y'all, Hi, 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: How how are you doing? Eves? I'm doing well. You know, 7 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: I have my ups and downs, as I imagine every 8 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: y'all and everyone else are having right now. But um, 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I'm like really steeped in history, 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: so I'm having to try to make sure that i 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: stay really present in the moment since I'm doing so 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: much history research. I'm like, is it or is it 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen? Who knows? Because I'm not going you have 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: an exaggerated version of what everyone is experiencing, wherein we 15 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: don't know the date or what day of the week 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: it is. You're like, is it nineteen right? I was 17 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: thinking about this the other day. Yeah. I was like, well, 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: I like, because I'm not there's there's not that much 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: interaction with the world around me. I'm like so steeped 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: in history, It's just become a whole thing for me. 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: That is such a specific like history podcast researcher problem. 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: I love it. And you are coming to us from 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: your home studios, as Samantha and I are, I'm coming 24 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: from my closet. Would you describe your home studios for us? So, um, 25 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,919 Speaker 1: the quote unquote home studio that I'm in right now 26 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: is the room that I usually work from. So it's 27 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: my study. I have all my books in here. I'm 28 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: typically in a closet when I'm recording this day in 29 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: history class. Um, but this is obviously this is a 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: special occasion because I get to share the studio with 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: you too today. So um, I needed a little bit 32 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: more more room and comfort so I could actually move 33 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: and not be in a dark space with no light 34 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: sources as my computer. Yeah, and what else have you 35 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: been here? Um? Got a little art and a desk, 36 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: a yoga mat on the floor, and some like floor 37 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: pillows and it's pretty, uh, it's pretty low key, a 38 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: low key studio if you want to call it a studio. 39 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: It looks night I mean it's got a lot of 40 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: natural light. I say, as I'm like garishly lit by 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: this home depot lamp and also by the way listeners, 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: if you don't follow Eves on Instagram. Her Instagram is 43 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: amazing and all this amazing yoga stuff. So Sminy has 44 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: been doing these yoga sessions and we are not quite 45 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: as professional perhaps some would want, but yes, I always 46 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: really appreciate your posts and they're they're amazing, so checking 47 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: and I appreciate what you're doing too, because it's like 48 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: to me, you know, any amount of yoga that one 49 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: can have more in their life, I'm all here for it. Yes, 50 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: yes it is. It's been really nice. Actually yeah, yeah, okay, 51 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: So for today, I absolutely loved your pick. Can you 52 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 1: tell us the woman you are have brought for us? Eaves? Yeah, 53 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: So today we're gonna be talking about Jackie Arms. And 54 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: she's one of those people who I got to touch 55 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: on a little bit in this day in history class, 56 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: but that's only so long, and I just really wanted 57 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: to dig into her story a little bit more because 58 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: it truly is fascinating. Her story is one of those 59 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: first that's like, as we always put our disclaimer on first, 60 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: like first have a lot of social implications and like 61 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: there are a lot of caveats to first, but in 62 00:03:58,080 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: this case, it's one of those first where she was 63 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: the first black American woman cartoonists to have her own 64 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: syndicated comic strip. Um. It was read across the US, 65 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: read widely. But it's still one of those industries where 66 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: there aren't a lot of black women in it. And 67 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: obviously the industry is very different now than it was 68 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: when she was working in the nineteen hundreds. But who 69 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: doesn't love, you know, cartoons. Oh yes, I really enjoyed 70 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: digging into her, her art in the comics that she's done. 71 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: I had had like legitimately, it was like, oh, this 72 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: is great, this is so good. Yeah, why don't we 73 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: we get started into her her life and all of 74 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: her accomplishments. Cool, Yeah, let's do it. Um. So. She 75 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: was born Zelda Mavin Jackson in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, around nineteen eleven. 76 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: Her father was William Winfield Jackson and her mother was 77 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: Mary Brown Jackson. So her father he had a theater 78 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: in a print business, and her mother was a seamstress 79 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: and she loved music in the arts, so that was 80 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: a part of her life early on. She also had 81 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: a sister named Dolores, and her father died in an 82 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: accident when she was young, and that left her and 83 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: her younger sister in the care of their mother and 84 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: other family members. They lived with their grandmother while their 85 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: mother worked as a living domestic worker, and so as 86 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: a child, she moved with the family to Monongahela, which 87 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: is in a suburb of Pittsburgh. She drew a lot 88 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: from the time of her childhood, So not only did 89 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: she have those arts influences around her when she was 90 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: a child, she was already doing a lot of her 91 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: own drawings. So she published her first cartoons in high 92 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: school yearbooks around nine and nineteen thirty. So that was 93 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: I think as a you know, a lot of people 94 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: start getting those experiences with art and with the careers 95 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: that they want to go into early on in their 96 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: high school years, and that is that was the case 97 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: with her. So she was working in her for her 98 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: high school yearbook. And so while she was still a 99 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: student at Monongahela High School, she inquired about working at 100 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: the Pittsburgh Courier. So the Pittsburgh Courier was a black 101 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: newspaper established in nineteen o seven. It was one of 102 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: the first black newspapers to publish both local and national editions. 103 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: So they assigned her to cover a boxing match and 104 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: they sent kind of the chaperone with her. She did that, 105 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: and then after she graduated high school, she moved to 106 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and she began working as a proof reader at 107 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: the Pittsburgh Courier. So kind of a natural transition from 108 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: the work that she got with him in high school 109 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: and then moving to work with him after she graduated 110 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: high school. So she was working as a freelance reporter. 111 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: She was covering police beats in court cases and human 112 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: interest stories. But she was really interested in drawing, like 113 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: that was the thing that pulled to her, even though 114 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: she was doing all of this reporting work. She was 115 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: really interested in drawing. And so she married Earl ORMs 116 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties and they had a daughter together, Jacqueline, 117 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: but unfortunately she died of a brain tumor when she 118 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: was very young. But Jackie she released her first cartoon 119 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty seven, and that was Torti Brown and 120 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: Dixie to Harlem. So this is the first cartoon that 121 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: we see over the course of her life. She has four, 122 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: so this is her first one. So it lasted for 123 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: about a year from May and nineteen thirty seven to 124 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: April of nineteen thirty eight, and that was published in 125 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: the Pittsburgh Courier, which, as I said earlier, you know, 126 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Courier had different editions across the United States. So 127 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: that helped her work as we go on throughout the 128 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: through the rest of her cartoons, throughout the rest of 129 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: her career. Um, that helps her get a national readership 130 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: that comes along with her being in the Pittsburgh Courier. 131 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: So the comic strip, it followed Torti Brown, black teen 132 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: from a small town in Mississippi who moved to New 133 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: York and had a numerous amount of escapades and along 134 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: the way found fame at the Cotton Club, which was 135 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: an actual popular nightclub in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties. 136 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: And so even though Torti Brown is kind of going 137 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: on this very singular adventure because it's specific to her, 138 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: there are also parts that mirror Jackie's life herself. And 139 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: then like all of the social things that were happening, 140 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: whether that's related to you know, music at the time 141 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: or people who were in the music in the art 142 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: scene at the time. Um, those are people who feature 143 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: in and inspire the comic. So at the cot Club, 144 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: Torti gets to meet all these people like Duke Ellington 145 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,119 Speaker 1: and cav Callaway and she dances with Bill Bojangles Robinson. 146 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: From the beginning, like from the front, from the jump, 147 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: Jackie's really clear about the characters that she likes to portray, 148 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: and she has this strong black female character that she 149 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: puts in all of her comics, and that's the case 150 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: with this one. So Torti was super outspoken, attractive, and 151 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: not subservient at all, and she wasn't a caricature as 152 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: so many other depictions of black people in general, and 153 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: black women specifically when that comes to you know, caricatures 154 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: like the mammy and just all of the other derogatory 155 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: stereotypes that people would place on images of black girls 156 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: and black women in the media. Torti was not that 157 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: at all. She was super outspoken, she had a lot 158 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: to say and a lot of meaningful things to say, 159 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: and she wasn't a caricature at all. So that that 160 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: comic just followed a lot of her adventures, but at 161 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: the same time, it addressed a lot of social issues 162 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: that were happening and that a lot of other people 163 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: weren't talking about, and especially not black female artists or 164 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: black female, specifically black female artists who were making cartoons. Um, 165 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: it was addressing racism and the challenges that black people 166 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: moving north faced. So there was a lot happening there, 167 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: um purposefully and just by matter of it being Jackie 168 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: who was publishing the cartoons in the newspaper itself, right, 169 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: because I imagine now I know for sure it was 170 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: mostly white men. Another industry dominated by mostly white men 171 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: still is unfortunately to some degree. Yes, And um, white men, 172 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: there were also white women who were working, and they 173 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: were a black men who were working and who were 174 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: her contemporaries who were also producing cartoons that had messages 175 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: that were related to racism and some of the some 176 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: of the same things that that we're talking about, all 177 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: of the same things because later in life, you know, 178 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: Jackie gets into things like abuse against women and like, 179 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: you know, some really some things that nobody else was 180 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: talking about cartoons. But there were other people, but they 181 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: didn't quite do it in the way that she did 182 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: it in terms of like white women were drawing white 183 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: women characters a lot of the time, and um, if 184 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: it was a black man, maybe he wasn't talking thing 185 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: about the same issues that she was. And her characters. 186 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: While other people may have relied on even if they 187 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: were giving off social messages, they might have relied on 188 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: more specific characters to speak about these social messages. Whereas 189 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: Torchy in this case was a woman. She was very outspoken, 190 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: and she was very like subversive and the things that 191 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: she was saying, and she was a singular character who 192 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: was very well developed and had a lot of individual spirit. Yes, yeah, 193 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely so. As I said earlier, she had a 194 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: huge readership across the United States, and it lasted for 195 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: about a year, but its original run once that was done, 196 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: there around fifty three strips of Torchy. So Jackie and Earle, 197 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: there were some moves that happened here. They moved to Salem, 198 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: Ohio for a couple of years, and they moved to Chicago. 199 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: And this is Chicago basically where she spends the rest 200 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: of her life. And as we know, Chicago is just 201 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: a huge place when it comes to the arts and 202 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: cultural scene for black people. Um they were on the 203 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: South Side of Chicago, which was also really big for 204 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: that at the time for a lot of their life together. 205 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: Um So, once she got to Chicago, she spent just 206 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: like a short brief stint studying drawing in a nine 207 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: degree program at the Art Institute of Chicago. And when 208 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: she was there, she began working for the Chicago Defender, 209 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: which was a black weekly, um and she covered news there, 210 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: but she wasn't there for long at all, for reasons 211 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: that remained not quite clear. Um. But in nineteen five 212 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: they started publishing her single panel cartoon, Candy. That only 213 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: ran for about four months. So Candy was a domestic 214 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: worker who worked for a rich white woman and so 215 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: she like she was very subversive in a similar vein 216 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: to Torchy, and she, like I said, that didn't last 217 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: that long. But that year, that same year, she was 218 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: already back putting work in the Pittsburgh Courier, even though 219 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: she was still living in Chicago. So this is the 220 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: comic that's most prominent or that lasted for the longest. 221 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: The thing that really got her a lot of the 222 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: spotlight was Patty Joe and ginger Um. The Courier began 223 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: publishing that comic, which was also a single panel cartoon. 224 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: And I really love this one. Like, there are just 225 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: so many. If y'all get a chance to to look 226 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: at Jackie rams Is work, please go check out some 227 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: of Patty Joe and Ginger because I just love the characters, um, 228 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: and they are so stylished. I was like, wow, I 229 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: want I want all of their outfits. Yes, I totally agree, right. 230 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: I was looking at the one with the paper dolls 231 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: where she had the different sun dresses and side. I 232 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, if I had a body that like great, 233 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: I would want that. That would that would be if 234 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: I actually got without anymore, I would wear that for sure. 235 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: Oh you can dress something inside and your body looks fantastic. 236 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: Thank you. Well that maybe a phrase that not that 237 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: meaning just I'm definitely quarantining. Well it seems like a 238 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: wink wink statement. You know what I mean, you know, 239 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, But yes, she was very very stylish. Yes, 240 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: so it was Patty Joe was the little girl and 241 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: Ginger was the older sister. So they were separated by 242 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: like twenty years or so, like Ginger was twenty something 243 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: and Patty Joe was like a five year old and 244 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: Ginger the older sister, never spoke. She This is another 245 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: reason I love her. Not only were her clothes amazing, 246 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: she just like had all the best facial expressions back 247 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: to whatever Patty Joe would say. Because Patty Joe had 248 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: all the wise cracks, so you know, both of them 249 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: kind of fed off of each other in that dynamic. 250 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: And what was interesting about that is that, like you 251 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Annie or asking about other people are saying, 252 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, other people weren't necessarily making the kind of 253 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: cartoons and giving these social messages. They definitely weren't being 254 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: spoken through a child. That was the age of Patty Joe. 255 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: So it kind of gave Jackie a different in into 256 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: saying what she wanted to say and saying it very clearly, 257 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: Like she didn't mince any worse in in the cartoons 258 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: at all. Like if this is about McCarthyism, you can 259 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: tell us about McCarthyism. Or if this is about housing 260 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: equality issues, then you're going to be able to tell 261 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: that from the cartoon. There was no it wasn't really 262 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: a subtext or undertones. It was like heavy overtone um, 263 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: but coming through the mouth of a little girl. Um. 264 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: And yeah. So she, like I said, she commented on 265 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: so many things in McCarthyism was one of them. She 266 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: touched on the Emmett Till case, she touched on the 267 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: Korean War, she touched on the Cold War, she touched 268 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: on nuclear weapons, just a range of different things in 269 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: the comics. So I wanted to just give word for 270 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: word a couple of the panels that she created. So 271 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: there was one n and and in it, Patty Joe says, 272 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to seem touchy on the subject, but 273 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: that new little white tea kettle just whistled at me. 274 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: So um. Meanwhile, Ginger is just like looking at her, 275 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: and Patty Joe's being all precocious as she does. And 276 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: obviously there are all these implications that come with what 277 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: Patty Joe was talking about the history of like black 278 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: men and white women and like all of the things 279 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: that got black men lynched, um when it came to 280 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: interactions with white people. And so for Patty Joe and 281 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: Jackie Arms herself to put that in a comic, and 282 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: for Patty Joe to be commenting on this and framing 283 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: it from a perspective for like a little girl is 284 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: saying this, and she's talking about a tea kettle, but 285 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: we all know what she's talking about. It's not really hidden. 286 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: It's not a hidden message at all. Is very indicative 287 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: of the kind of work that Worms did. Like that 288 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: was pretty much how the rest of her comics went. 289 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: So there is another one where Patty Joe refers to 290 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: a letter that she wrote and she said, it's a 291 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: letter to my congressman. I want to get it straight 292 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: from Washington. Just which is the American way of life 293 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: New York or Georgia. And as we are in Georgia, 294 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: obviously relate to that one hard and George is also 295 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: heavy in the news right now too. Um so, M yeah, 296 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: those are m hmmm sure is sure? Is probably not 297 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: the spotlight we want it, but no, I would say, 298 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: definitely not. We have some more for you listeners, but 299 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: first we have a quick break for a word from 300 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So Patty 301 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: Joe and Ginger ran for a really long time. It 302 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: ran for eleven years from forty to nineteen fifty six, 303 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: for over five dred cartoons, So it did really well. 304 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: It was written by a lot of people, and it 305 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: appeared in other newspapers, and it even had a doll 306 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: based on it. So in nineteen forty seven, the Terry 307 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: Lead Doll Company created a doll based on Patty Joe. 308 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: The doll was originally produced by the company until nineteen nine. 309 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: She had a bunch of accessories and dresses. She had 310 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: a huge wardrobe. The doll did, and it just defied 311 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:00,120 Speaker 1: stereotypical images of black girls. That countered two other dolls, 312 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: and as we spoke about earlier media representations of her, 313 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: um she looked just as mischievous the doll of Patti 314 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: Joe did as she was actually in the cartoons. But 315 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 1: even though the doll wasn't produced that long, you know, 316 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: it didn't have some popularity and it's like worth a 317 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: lot now, like those dolls are worth a ton. Gosh, yeah, 318 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: they were in their outfits were nice too, mm hmmmm. 319 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: So all the while she was creating all these cartoons, 320 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: she was doing everything herself, so there wasn't a division 321 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: of a story staff and drawers and anchors. She was 322 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: doing everything, you know, and that ended up, you know, 323 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: that had an effect on her physical health later in life. 324 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: Um As she did get rheumatory arthritis, which affected how 325 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: she was able to do her work. But she worked 326 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: a ton, and she had that same fire for creating 327 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: characters like Towards and characters like Candy, and characters like 328 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: Patty Joe and Ginger. Even though Ginger was silent. She 329 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: was also a very important character and it as the 330 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: older sister of Patti Joe. She ended up bringing Torch 331 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: You back in nineteen fifty at the request of a syndicate, 332 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: and that was called Torchy and Heartbeats, and it ran 333 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: for four years. And while that was more so about relationships, 334 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, it was about love, this time it wasn't 335 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: also in color rather than in black and white. Um. 336 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: There were a few like content issues in the beginning 337 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: because they got a guy named John Messman to write 338 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: the dialogue. Obviously, Jackie was not happy with that kind 339 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: of arrangement, and there's a quote where she says she 340 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: never liked dreamy little women who can't hold their own. 341 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 1: So she eventually ended up getting creative control over the 342 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: strip again. And that one, just like the other one, 343 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: still had political messages in it, so it had it 344 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: talked about things like silence against Swiman, public health, environmental 345 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: issues like environmental racism, and big, big ideas and big 346 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: messages in it, just like the rest of her work 347 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: did um. And there were people who spoke on enjoying 348 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: how much they enjoyed Torchy and enjoyed Jackie ORMs is 349 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: comics like Langston Hughes professed to be a fan of 350 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: the Torchy comic And as we'll talk about a little later, 351 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: Jackie was she rubbed what is it rubbed elbows or shoulders? 352 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: Rubbed elbows? I can't think of the idiom right Well now, 353 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: it's probably quarantine times, probably rubbing elbows. I think it 354 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: originally was your rubbing shoulders, but you're right, I mean 355 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, that's about idiom in quarantine times. We're 356 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: gonna have to reinvent a lot of things, including some phrases. True. True, 357 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: But the point that I was trying to make there 358 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: without an appropriate idiom for this time, is that she later, um, 359 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: we'll get to how she did meet with a lot 360 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: of people who were also in arts, like in Chicago, 361 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: just because of the circles that she ran in and 362 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: the kind of prestige that her husband had because he 363 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: managed a really nice hotel in Chicago. But yeah, she 364 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: she also, like I said, a lot of her comics 365 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: were inspired by the times and by like jazz singers 366 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: and the arts and culture of the time, and she 367 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: herself was a very fashionable person in real life. Jackie 368 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: Arms was and did a lot of things with that 369 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: as well. But anyway, she also made paper dolls, which 370 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: was kind of a tradition I guess you could say 371 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: at the time to go along with comics, and hers 372 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: were called Torchy talks um, and those are just little 373 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: paper dolls that were ascue and stablished and you know, 374 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: just in that went a on with the Torchy comic 375 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 1: and yeah, so that's what she did for a lot 376 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: of her life. She worked on several comic strips, and 377 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: she did a lot of reporting, but she also did 378 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 1: things in Chicago so that that had nothing to do 379 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: with her comic strips, Like she put on fashion shows, 380 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: and she had fundraisers, and she went to community events, um, 381 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: like appearing at career Day. And she was known in 382 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: Chicago for her participation in anti racist and humanitarian organizations 383 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: and movements and knowing that the times were that what 384 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: they were, and we're talking about the nineteen forties and 385 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, she sometimes worked with members of the 386 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: Communist Party. So as we often get too in these stories, 387 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: we love the ever so ubiquitous FBI file. There was 388 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: one on LAN four around ten years. We love a 389 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: good FBI file. I just love every time, which did 390 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: by the strong Yeah, a strong black woman, were obviously 391 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 1: going to call talk about the FBI being suspicious and 392 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: putting up like following them and tagging them somehow. Yeah, 393 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: it's sure to happen, Sure to happen. And that was 394 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: the case with Jackie. Um agents interrogated her from time 395 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: to time, and they reported about those interrogations. They linked 396 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: her to the South Side Community Arts Center, the Artists Guild, 397 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: the Cultural Club, and the Du Bois Theater Guild. UM 398 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,959 Speaker 1: And here's an excerpt from what one agent wrote in 399 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: her file. So here's what they say it. As a 400 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: result of the interview, it was apparent in interviewing agents 401 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: that this subject is not very well informed or intelligent, 402 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: but rather a pseudo intellectual type person, flighty in temperament 403 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: and not inclined throughout the interview too. Seriously, consider what 404 00:24:53,359 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: the agents were attempting to clarify. Ah, that's outrageous, it is, 405 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: and we have to imagine that that that was their 406 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: impression of her. But that was a purposeful communication of 407 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: character on Jackie Ormes is part right, So I can 408 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: just imagine her being there giving the face of your 409 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: stupid I'm not answering these questions, and because they're so 410 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: frustrated and they don't want to say they're outsmarted by 411 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: a black woman, they're like, oh, she's flighty. She definitely 412 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: didn't understand what we're asking, right, that's gotta be it, right. Yeah, 413 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: personal biases were definitely involved in this situation. She said 414 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: in later interrogations that she wasn't a member of the 415 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: Communist Party per se, but she did align with the 416 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: party because it offered quote humanistic, social and economic advantages 417 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: to black people, so she did over time. I wouldn't 418 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: even use the phrase open up really because she didn't 419 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: really give the FBI agents much, but she did, you know, 420 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: say that make clear, you know what her ovations were 421 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: in speaking with the people that she did because she 422 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: was so active in different groups and organizations. So she 423 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: um her career as a cartoonist. It kind of ended 424 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen fifties because a lot of things 425 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 1: were changing that were outside of her control, even though 426 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: she continued to create art. There were a lot of 427 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: black newspapers that were shifting focus because the civil rights 428 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: movement was cropping up in just getting Huger at the time, 429 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: and a lot of those black newspapers were cutting those 430 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: comics sections to make room for coverage of the civil 431 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: rights movement, So that kind of failed by the wayside, 432 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: which meant that, you know, there wasn't really much room 433 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: for Jackie's work anymore. So she did start, you know, 434 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: in fine art and painting, but her rheumatoid arthritis did 435 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: affect that work as well, so she stopped that. At 436 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: the same time, her husband was still managing the hotel 437 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: that I alluded to earlier, which was the Sutherland Hotel 438 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: in Chicago, and that was a thing that put her 439 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: in touch with a lot of performers, a lot of writers, 440 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: and a lot of artists, and they formed friendships with 441 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: people like the Singer's Lena Horne and Sarah Van and 442 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: she sometimes even asked them to perform in her fundraising shows. 443 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, so she was an active community member as well, 444 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: doing a lot of things in her community that contributed 445 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: to social messages in the real world, even beyond you know, 446 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: all of the characters that were in her comic strips. 447 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: So she was kind of a person who talked to 448 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: the talk through her comic strips, but also walked the walk. Yeah, 449 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: for sure, we have a little bit more for you listeners, 450 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for work 451 00:27:51,680 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: from our sponsor and her back. Thank you stopsoring. So 452 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: here's where we arrive at the end of Jackie ORMs 453 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 1: is life. Even though she has such a long and 454 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: prolific career when it came to her art and her comics. 455 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: She died in December of nineteen and there was an 456 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: article in the Chicago Tribune where Jackie's sister said Jackie's 457 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: philosophy of life was that you don't wait for someone 458 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: to encourage you to do things. If you want to 459 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: do it, then do it. She was that way since 460 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: she was a little and doing sculpting, painting, writing, drawing, whatever. 461 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: So even her sister attests to just how deeply she 462 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: was immersed in her arts and in she was inducted 463 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: into the Will Eisner Comics Hall of Fame. UM And 464 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: just as we spoke about earlier, just circling back around 465 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: to this after speaking about her work, is that the 466 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: industry was still pretty much off limits to black women. 467 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: Um And from to two thousand and five there was 468 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: like one nationally syndicated black woman newspaper cartoonist who was 469 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: Barbara Brandon Croft. So it was definitely an area where 470 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: the wills were turning slowly. And even though Jackie at 471 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: the time didn't get a lot of shot, even though 472 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: her comics were decently read, she still didn't get a 473 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: ton of recognition. And over the years people have mentioned 474 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: how they've been inspired by her work, People like Barbara 475 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: Brandon Croft have talked about how their work was influenced 476 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: by Jackie ORMs Is work, and just the recognition that 477 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: she deserves now that we do have more information on 478 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: her or that she has come back into the public light, 479 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: it still wasn't a field where a lot of black 480 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: women were working in even though there were white women 481 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: and black men working in the field. M m yeah. 482 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: And it's again, this is one of those things where 483 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled you brought this to our attention because 484 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: I had never heard of her. But I'm also angry 485 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: that it took this long because I loved it, Like 486 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: I really was reading her work and just loved it 487 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: um And I I think in something like comics comic strips, 488 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: it's easy to dismiss them as sort of frivolous or 489 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: are you know, not that serious because that's kind of 490 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: inherent in their nature. But she was making powerful statements 491 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: in her work and we can still see that continue 492 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: to this day when you think of something like political cartoons. 493 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: But we definitely shouldn't dismiss the power of what she 494 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: was doing, right. It's just like having being able to 495 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: read these comics in a newspaper, even though it's in 496 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: a lighthearted format, messages that are actually serious, but also 497 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: you get to laugh at um in context of the 498 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: things actually happening, and also seeing and knowing that it 499 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 1: is a black woman who's creating them. It provides some 500 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: sort of you know, realness and also lightness within the dark, 501 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, and also calling out what that darkness is. 502 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: And I just I really appreciate, you know, knowing about 503 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: her work now because even though that was created for 504 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: that context that are there, I think a lot of 505 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: us can agree that there are a lot of things 506 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: that are still the same, even if they are operating 507 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: in a different way or lane that Jackie ORMs was 508 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: talking about in her comics. M Yeah, absolutely, and I 509 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: do think, um it is palatable to present it in 510 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: that way, to present things that perhaps people don't want 511 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: to think about or talk about to put it in 512 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: something that is maybe on the surface lighthearted or it's funny, 513 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: but also very serious. I know for me, during all 514 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: of this uh dramas that shall we say we're going through, 515 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: it's easiest for me to consume the news through comedy. Um. So, 516 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: I just see so much value in in things like 517 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: this and in the that I think as a power 518 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: to facilitate conversations in a way that a lot of 519 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: other things can't. Right, I agree. I meant to ask, 520 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: is anybody here and artists? I have so much respects, 521 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: Like I cannot draw at all, and when I see 522 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: people that can, I just so much respects. Robi is 523 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: not my strong suit at all, right me either, Um actually, 524 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm really bad at it. I think any you and 525 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: I practice a little bit. When we played the House 526 00:32:54,520 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: Party game and it's it's it's best, Yeah did I John? 527 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: It was just like an oval and I was like 528 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: this kept just I did the same thing. I just 529 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: kept doing circles and they're like, what the hell is that? 530 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: Obviously it's it's no man or something. Obviously it's a church. 531 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: I mean I did draw a lot though for dungeons 532 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: and dragons. I actually do draw quite a bit. Yeah, child, 533 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: but you two are words smiths, so that that's that 534 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,959 Speaker 1: are right there? Thank you. I'll send I'll send my 535 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: fan fiction over to you post taste. Please do you 536 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: would hate it, it it would make you cry and it 537 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: used If you have any fan fiction, I would also 538 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: love yours as well. Let's us all share our fan fiction. 539 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't have fan fiction. Unfortunately, I never 540 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: I never got into fan writing fan fiction. So always 541 00:33:53,240 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: get a new skill, you know, a new quarantine hobby. Yeah, yeah, 542 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: I'll put fan fiction on the list. I'll think about 543 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: putting fan fiction on on the list. I like this, 544 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: you'll think about adding it to the list. I'll accept that. 545 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: I'll accept that. That was my version of commitment slash 546 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: non commitment. Well, moving away reluctantly from fan fiction. Thank 547 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: you so much as always for joining us such a pleasure. 548 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: Can you let the listeners know where they can find you, Eves? Yeah, 549 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: so you can find me on this in History Class, 550 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: which is another podcast that I host, which is about 551 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: events and birthdays that happened in history. Um, and you 552 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: can find me on social media. I'm at Eves Jeff code. Um. 553 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: You can also find me at t D I h 554 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: C podcast for the same history class. And that's about it. Yes, yes, 555 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: definitely go check all that stuff out. All awesome and 556 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: if you would like to email us, you can. Our 557 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at i heart media 558 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: dot com. You can find those on Instagram at stuff 559 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: but I'm Never Told You or on Twitter at mom 560 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, 561 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told 562 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: You's a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 563 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio with the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 564 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.