WEBVTT - 'Unscripted' Book Authors Offer Lessons on Redstone Succession Drama 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.319 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:13.760 which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.520 in the media business. Today, I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety. 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.440 A new book is out that is sure to get 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.480 Hollywood talking about one of its most gossiped family empires, 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.840 The red Stones. Unscripted, The Battle for a Media Empire 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.360 and the red Stone Family Legacy reveals the behind the 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:37.040 scenes battles that ripped through Viacom and CBS before their merger. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.280 In I'm happy to have the book's Pulitzer winning authors 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.720 with me today, Jim Stewart and Rachel Abrams. I'll be 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:54.640 back with them in just a moment. I'm back with 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.160 Jim Stewart, author of quite a few books that have 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.480 penetrated the corridors of power from politics to big business, 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.200 and Rachel Abrams, who was part of the team of 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.480 investigative journalists who dug into the Harvey Weinstein scandal for 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.360 The New York Times, where both she and Jim work 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.400 full disclosure. Rachel used to work with me here at Variety, 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:17.759 but as she knows, that doesn't mean I will take 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.640 it easy on her one bit. Welcome guys, Thank you 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.600 so much. Andy, Yeah, thanks and h thanks for having 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:29.080 us so unscripted tells the story of both Sumner Redstone, 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.880 the founding father of the Viacom Empire, and Leslie Moonvez, 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.160 who had an extraordinary run at CBS. Both men, however, 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.640 ended their otherwise illustrious careers in pretty messy fashion, as 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.080 you document so well here and Jim, I wanted to 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.240 start with you. You know, there's been a lot of 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.840 inks billed on both of these gentlemen. What were you 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.680 looking for that wasn't already out there? What made you 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.640 think there was more story to tell? Well? I had 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:58.920 done a lot of reporting, as had Rachel about what 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:00.760 was going on in the scene yes board at the 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:04.520 time of moon vezus Oustair and I knew even though 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:05.960 we had done some reporting in this one the New 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.240 York Times, there were still a lot of unanswered questions. 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:09.880 So I was I really wanted to get to the 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:11.920 bottom of that. I think we were both kind of 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.480 thinking of it initially as the whole meat too movement 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.880 collides with, you know, the boardroom culture in corporate America 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.600 as we saw it as CB a guest. Then, as 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.280 we worked on the story and we gained more access. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.680 First of all, we got incredible access to documents that 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.480 weren't disclosed in the book from the boardroom. But we 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:35.040 also started getting more and more information from the staff, 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.240 the nurses inside the Sumner Redstone mansion that also had 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.880 not been reported, and we realized at some point the 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.959 story was bigger than that. Wasn't just a corporate boardroom 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.840 meets me too. It was also a family drama that 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.880 was very, very significant. And we had Sherry Redstone, the daughter, 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:57.800 the much underappreciated, to put it mildly, daughter of Sumner Redstone, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.160 the rust into a world not of her choosing uh 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.040 in an attempt to gain control of the companies and 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.640 the family legacy. So that became the much bigger story. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:10.720 That kind of is a corporate story, is a me 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.960 too story, but it's much bigger than that. Ultimately, I 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.519 think it's a family drama. So, Rachel, could you explain 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.600 from me, in light of all this documentation and other 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.400 disclosures that came out and you're reporting, is there any 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.920 one thing that people are going to be surprised by 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.079 that they didn't know from earlier reporting new new light 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.720 that this book sheds. Well, I can tell you the 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.280 one thing I was not surprised by, really shocked by, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.640 was the sort of the level of alleged elder abuse 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.480 that Sumner Redstone suffered towards the end of his life. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.240 And the reason why I say it was shocked by 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.840 this but not surprised, is that, you know, we for 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.400 somebody like him, with all of his money and all 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.280 of his resources, you would think that, you know, he 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.840 would be somewhat insulated from people who were trying to 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.520 take advantage of him. But the fact that you know, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.640 he these two women, men Will Hurtser and Sydney Holland, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:07.040 were able to to insinuate themselves into his life and 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.680 to his mansion, into his finances and nearly gained control. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.640 It just goes to show you that, I mean, frankly, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:15.520 you know, if it could happen to sun To Redstone, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:17.880 why couldn't it happen to to somebody in your family? 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.560 And one could argue that his wealth made him a 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.760 target of people who were trying to get gain an 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.520 upper hand or get rich or whatever, but you know, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.160 just frankly, just the level to which people were able 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:33.040 to succeed and siphon away millions of dollars from him. Um. 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.640 I found that really really sort of amazing. And when 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.160 you say millions of dollars, I think the one thing 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.680 that's stuck from stuck with me from this book was 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:47.480 one hundred and fifty million dollars between Hurtzer and Holland 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:53.640 I didn't realize it was. I was just absolutely flabbergasted 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.240 by that. And I think to your point, in a way, 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.440 the story of Redstone reminded me of celebrities like Michael 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.320 Jackson or Whitney Houston, where the wealth that you would 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.160 think would be the installation actually becomes a prison of sorts. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.200 And it just got me thinking, is there going to 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:17.920 be a legal legacy from what has transpired here, Jim, 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.480 in terms of like preventing this kind of activity from 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:26.279 happening to moguls or whoever could be taken advantage of 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.320 like this. Well, I think you see in the story. 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:31.440 I wish I could say, yes that there would be 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:33.680 a lot of cogress on this, but not really. The 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.840 you know, the the Los Angeles Protective Service here, which 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:43.279 supposedly investigative this did a laughably incomplete job. They never 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.679 even interviewed the staff members who filed the compliance about 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.719 the elder abews there were lawsuits that might have yielded 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:55.120 some significant rulings had they gone to completion, but for 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.640 reasons that are clear than the story, both sides wanted 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.320 to settle this so that never jually went to trial. 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.920 And I'm sorry to say, probably some of you going 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.120 to read this and look at you know, what happened 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.000 to the companions of Sumners, you know, Sydney and manuelas 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:15.279 Rachel mentioned, and say, look, it paid off for them. They, 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.520 by the way, a hundred fifty million, which I agree 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.159 is shocking. That's kind of the bottom line. It was 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.400 at least a hundred fifty million. I think there were 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.200 many more millions on top of that, not to mention 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.480 the shocking fact they nearly got control. I mean, at 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.720 one point I said, can you imagine Sun Valley with 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.000 Sydney Holland and MANUELA Hurts are parading around there. They 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.279 came very close to that. I don't think people realize, um, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.440 how how much that, how close that came to happening. 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.440 And Jim, You've pierced many a vail of secrecy over 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.040 the course of your reporting career, and so I'm curious 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.880 how this one measured up. To say a Disney Wars 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.679 another book of yours. I mean, we're people willing to 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.760 talk about this stuff. Yes, I think you know, we 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.720 detailed many sources, uh, and there there was an extraordinary 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.040 ray of people who ultimately did talk to us in 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:10.400 various ways, some completely for attribution, some willing to fact 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.920 check and but not wanting specific things attributed. And we 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:14.960 go into that in the source. But you know, we 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.880 got so much information that people really had no choice 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:19.840 but to talk so and I have to say it's 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.680 unprecedented and is now a very long career of mine, 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.400 partly because Rachel, you know, developed a relationship with a 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:31.960 confidential source who provided a call it a treasure trove 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.480 is an understatement. I mean, it was a luminous amount 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:40.440 of confidential, detailed information that able enabled us to really 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.840 be a fly on the wall in it seems that 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.760 I've never had that kind of immediate access. And plus 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.320 we got all these texts and emails and you can 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.760 kind of be there in real time as you see 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.560 the struggles going on within the company with you know, 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:56.800 moon Vest trying to decide whether to sue the red 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.680 Stone family was something that nobody has ever understood why 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.440 he did it? I think you will now, Um, as 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.800 well as boardroom minutes, letters, UM, an incredible rad text 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.120 and emails and which are you know, made it rich 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.080 load of material from which to weave this tale. Yeah, 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:19.960 I'd say the texts were particularly juicy, particularly shocking, and 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:25.160 gave you an insight that is it's it really went 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:30.320 to the absolute center of what was going on here. UM, Rachel, 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.120 I want to talk a bit also about Leslie Moonvez, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.320 who you know, looms pretty large in the in the 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:39.880 second half of this book. UM, did you come away 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.040 from your reporting with a different impression of the man 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.360 than what you set out to? What? What did you 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:47.600 learn along the way that might have changed what you 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.960 thought about someone who had a pretty incredible career. You know, 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.400 one thing I was really kind of surprised to learn 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.560 was how indecisive he had been about you know, this 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.480 nuclear option to file lawsuit against the you know, the 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.920 Redstone controlling company National Amusements. You know, the text as 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.720 you can see in the text messages and the communications 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.680 that he's having with other board members, etcetera. He I 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.520 would have thought that somebody that had risen to the 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.800 upper echelons of the media world would be somebody who 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.000 made decisions stuck with them, you know, showed no signs 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.640 of vulnerability or waffling or anything like that. But as 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.160 you'll read in the book, Um, that was not the 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:26.760 case here, and that was not the case to sort 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.640 of an extraordinary degree. I mean, just seeing the cajoling 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:32.880 that's going on behind the scenes as he's trying to 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.319 figure out whether to wage war against the Red Stones. 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:37.640 That is not the kind of decisiveness I would have 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.640 perhaps expected with somebody of his stature. And I will 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.520 say that after reading this, I think any any mogul 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.240 who reads this will probably never text again because it 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.439 will come back to haunt you. This book will show 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.360 you that much. And Rachel, you've done extensive reporting on 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.040 the me too saga, and now that we're years away 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.120 from the from the fall all of Leslie moon Vez, 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.360 I'm also curious to get your sense of how the 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.400 me too movement has played out. Has there been lasting 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.559 cultural change in this business as a result of the 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.679 kind of reporting you've done. Well, I think it's too 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.840 early to talk about what the lasting changes are going 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.440 to be. I think, not to sound overly cynical, but 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.560 companies have become very good at damage control and saying 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:26.360 all the right things in the wake of a scandal. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.720 But it takes a lot to change a culture, especially 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.440 a culture where the culture has been ingrained from you know, 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.760 the top for years. And one thing that I think 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.559 is really interesting that you know, it's we're too It's 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.960 still too early to tell, but I do wonder if 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.160 we're going to see any of these guys come back, right, Like, 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.720 Hollywood especially loves a redemption story. And you know, some 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:48.360 of these guys, are they going to live in exile 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.560 long enough for for people to think, well, you know, 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.440 if I offer them a movie deal or an executive 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.040 job like I you know, I don't think anyone's gonna 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.760 cancel me. And and I sort of wonder, you know, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.440 are any of these guys going to be coming back? 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.760 I mean, it's only been what five years or so 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.240 less than five years, sorry, six years ish since Harvey 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.880 Weinstein broke So I do wonder, you know, if, if, 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.360 if we're going to see any comebacks, um, and I 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.400 think that'll be really telling in terms of figuring out 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.600 what's changed, what hasn't you know, Andy, I M I 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.320 wish I could say that there's been a huge change there. 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.079 There's no doubt there has been changed, For example, against 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.240 shocking things, the idea that less Moon bez as he 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.920 himself disclosed, and we reveal there was a there was 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.960 a woman on the CBS payroll who was in the 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.520 pool of people sitting outside his office. Part of his 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.920 job was to administer oral sex to him whenever he wanted. 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.640 I would like to think that that almost unbelievable thing 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:46.440 is not happening anymore. On the other hand, I was 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:51.120 also very strong, as was Rachel. And how fearful people 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.240 still are about coming forward. I mean, we have women 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.120 in the in the book who had not previously spoken 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.400 to the press, who I don't think people were aware of, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.160 had undergone some of these things, and me too has 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.120 not changed much. There's still afraid of their careers. There's 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.840 still afraid that they'll be black ball there's still afraid 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.400 that that Hollywood in particular and entertainment is a very 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:19.360 male dominated um industry in which their careers would be ruined. 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.600 And really, there were people we talked to who would 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.280 not agree. They ultimately they said, no, we're not going 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.320 to put our neck on the lawn for this so 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.560 that is still a serious problem in my view. Well, 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:32.959 so to that point, I mean, this was something that 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:34.760 woul occurred to me as I read the book as well, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:39.200 which was how many other women either didn't want to 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.480 speak or how many other women you may not even 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.760 have known of that were implicated in this And obviously 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.240 you can't disclose who, what went and why, but give 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.680 a sense of the scale here, In other words, was 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.400 there even was there you know, many many more women 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:57.839 who wouldn't speak, or many many more women that you 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.440 heard things about but couldn't confirm. I just perhaps this 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.760 is even more the scale here is even greater than 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.760 you guys have reported. I mean, Andy, you know this 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.240 also being a journalist, Like whenever you report something, the 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.920 question is always, well, this is what I know? What 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.800 don't I know? And you know, I don't really want 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.720 to speculate about the universe of how, you know, how 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.080 big big, how many women might be out there, because 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.000 you know, I don't want to cast dispersions with information 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.160 I haven't confirmed myself, but but I will say that, 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.440 like I have talked to people who are related to 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.960 this story who say there is no upside for me 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.320 talking to you and I just want to emphasize what 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.480 Jim said, which is that, you know, frankly, as a 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.839 woman covering some of this stuff the last few years, 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.839 one of the I would argue kind of sexist criticisms 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.080 for women coming forward in these stories is well, they 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.679 just want attention, you know, the floodgates of open. People 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.800 just want attention. And I can tell you that like 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.040 more often than not, when I talk to somebody, they 0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:00.240 see no upside moon best CBS or regardless. There's the 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.160 response I get is there is no upside for me 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:04.959 talking to you. What do I get out of this? 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.680 My career will be ruined, my children will find out, 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.480 you know, why would I want this out there? And 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.319 so I think if anybody thinks that that people are 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.640 everyone is eager and embraces calls from me or Jim 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.240 with open arms, I mean, that is really a misconception. 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.240 Ye Andy, I'd also like to add an important theme 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.760 in this book that hadn't been explored much is the 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:31.880 intersection of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, and money. Um, there 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.880 are there are many examples here of women. Yes, they 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.560 did undergo pretty horrific behavior on the part of men, 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.240 but they also got a lot of money. I mean, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.080 Sydney Manuela may have walked away with a hundred fifty 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.240 million plus, but there are many many other women that 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.320 we ran into in this story who left with many 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.400 millions of dollars in their bank account with you know, 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.520 with CBS and Viacom shares that just mysteriously showed up 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.880 in their brokerage accounts. And you know, frankly, a lot 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.200 of those people they didn't want to talk to us, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.800 They didn't want to do anything would put those millions 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.360 of dollars at risk, like somebody may be sailing them 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.560 or something. So I think that combination, when you're when 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.120 you're dealing with very wealthy and powerful people with money 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.600 to spread around, you're you're e veneering a new area 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:24.000 of sexual harassment interviews in my view. But what do 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.800 you guys as reporters do when you have to encounter 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.000 people like this who have no incentive? What are the reporting, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.600 for lack of a better term, tricks of the trade 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.680 to coax these people to speak to you. I mean, 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.160 it just sounds very difficult. I think it really depends 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.320 on what the person's motivations are for picking up the 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.880 phone and talking to you. Is somebody talking to you 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.960 because they don't want this whatever happened to them to 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.640 happen to other people, in which case you can say, look, 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.640 you know, I getting your story out there might be 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.720 able to I mean Megan Megan too, who is one 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.480 of the reporters on the Weinstein story, UM, has this 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.920 great line where she talks about saying to women, I 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.240 can't change what happened to you, but maybe I can 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.920 prevent it from happening to other people. And I have 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.600 to confess I've stolen that on more than one occasion. UM. 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.040 And And but some people also, you know, I feel 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.920 that that that nobody has ever been held accountable to 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.440 what happened to them. And you have to just reassure 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.640 folks that, like, we work at the New York Times 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.680 and we handle all kinds of sensitive information every day, 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.560 and we know how to keep keep keep people confidential. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.040 And you have to just reassure folks that, like you 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.480 can take action with the information that they give you 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.280 to maybe you know, shed a light on something, UM 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.480 and keep them safe. You know, I think it's it 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.240 all comes down to how would you feel if a 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.160 stranger called you out of the blue and asked you 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.120 about really sensitive info that you just going to want 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.480 to know that that they know how to treat you 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.960 and treat you with respect and and keep and and 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.240 hold your confidence. So there's no one one size fits all, um, 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:04.520 But I guess those are a couple of things that 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.040 I like to keep in mind. I think it was 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.760 a big advantage there were two of us and um, 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.760 and you know, Rachel was able to relate, I think, 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.840 and you know, bond with a lot of these people 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:18.399 in a way that I probably couldn't do. And then 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.159 there were some some examples where maybe it was good 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.119 that I was not, you know, immurse so much in 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.680 the me too reporting because we did sort of Rachel 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.640 did a lot of the women who experienced sexual viies 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.600 and I did some myself, and she was right. You 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.639 never knew what approach it was. But I have to 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.760 admire the people have spoke because in no case did 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.000 it really bring them any immediate advantage to be able 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.320 to tell the stories. Yeah, I think one of the 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.439 great things about this book. I mean, this process was 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.639 so interesting and Jim and I, you know, really I 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.760 had obviously the subject matter was dark at times, but 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.400 also some of it was quite lighthearted, and Jim and I, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.280 you know, really enjoyed this process in working together, and 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.760 we really played to our strengths. You know, Jim is 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.800 obviously a very U steven business reporter, and there are 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.119 people that are going to answer his phone call that 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.679 might be more reticent to call me back. And there 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.399 are people that I might be able to relate to 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:18.959 as a thirty five year old woman that would be 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.760 better for me to call. And it's not like I 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.720 haven't done corporate investigations, It's not like Jim hasn't spoken 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.080 to women who have made sexual assault allegations. But you know, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.720 this book being the collision, as Jim said, of Me 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.880 Too and corporate governance, the two of us really were 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.199 able to cover a lot of ground and we really 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:41.239 embraced that. We'll be back in just a moment with 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:53.360 more with Rachel Abrams and Jim Stewart, and we are 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.359 back with the authors of the new book Unscripted, the 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.600 Battle for a Media Empire and the red Stone Family 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.120 legg See, Rachel, I want to go back to something 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.040 you had said earlier that reminded me of I was 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.639 reading the epilogue just last night, and I think I 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.320 howled out loud at the part where you guys reported 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:17.520 that peers of Leslie Moonvez wondered whether he would return 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:22.720 to the industry at some point. I can understand why 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:26.919 his friends might think that. Do you really think that 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.640 something like that as possible? As I think you suggested 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:34.520 earlier in this conversation. I just really feel as though, 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:41.200 again Hollywood loves a redemption story, and Leslie Moonvez has 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.240 helped many people in their careers. Are a lot of people, 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.560 as Jim said, that feel very grateful to him, And 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:48.639 I would have to imagine that there is a world 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:55.320 where the combination of time, distance, gratitude, perhaps people feeling 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.640 like they owe him something like all of those things, 0:19:57.640 --> 0:19:59.600 I could imagine a world in which they all combine 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.400 were so somebody's willing to give him another shot, And um, 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:05.760 you know, I don't. I don't know if it's likely 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.960 or not, but I you know, he's done a lot 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:11.240 of favors for a lot of people, He's made a 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.120 lot of careers, and you know, scandals fade with time, 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.040 So there's a world in which it could be possible. 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.320 I suppose. I mean, he's already set up an LLC 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.280 for his media ventures. Um, I believe in West Hollywood, right, So, 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.159 but has this company actually done anything? Do we do 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.919 we know anything about his mindset these days? Is he 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.480 angling for a comeback or maybe he's just done. He's 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.439 been keeping a low profile. But you know, I just 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.680 I just think I would be wary of saying never, 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.760 you know, never say never. And and you know, I 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:47.240 think it's fairness to to Moonvez. He's not a Harvey Weinstein. Um. 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.239 He was immensely well locked, he was very popular, He 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.680 helped many people in their careers. He was an extremely 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:56.440 successful chief executive re civs over all those years. And 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.879 I've talked to friends of mine in the business in 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.520 Hollywood have said, you know, look, I don't really know 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:03.639 what happened there, but you know I don't want to 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.160 run a foul of him or across him. I bear 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:08.440 him nothing good will. Plus you said that staunch support 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.800 of his very popular wife, Julie Chance. So I would 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.520 never count him out. And by the way, he's never 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:16.040 in charge of the crown, He's never ensued civilly. Most 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.359 of these incidents happened too long ago. The statute of 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:22.280 limitations is run. Um, So you know, I would never 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.000 count him out. I'm wondering whether we should be counting 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.960 out Philippe Domant, who of course was red Stones right 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.200 hand man. And Karen, tell me if I'm getting this wrong, 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.840 comes off as much of grifter in this book as 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.320 Sydney Holland or Manuela Herzer. I mean, do we have 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:45.240 we heard a peep from him since he exited stage left? Well, 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.760