Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
Speaker 1: And who says so? Come curious, dig deep, and join
Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. There are perhaps
Speaker 1: a handful of people alive today who have actually changed
Speaker 1: the way a society thinks. Gloria Steinem is one of them.
Speaker 1: You are living right now today wherever you're tuning in
Speaker 1: from inside a world she helped build. If you have
Speaker 1: a credit card in your wallet. If you've ever applied
Speaker 1: for a mortgage without a man's signature, if you've ever
Speaker 1: rented a car or opened a bank account without a
Speaker 1: man's signature. If you've held a job outside the home
Speaker 1: or had a partner who helps inside it. If you've
Speaker 1: ever reported harassment at work and had somewhere to report
Speaker 1: it to. If you've run a marathon, If your daughter
Speaker 1: has ever played on a sports team, if you've ever
Speaker 1: been treated by a female doctor, or spoken to a
Speaker 1: female attorney, if you've sat on a jury, run for office,
Speaker 1: kept your name when you got married, if you ever
Speaker 1: made a choice about your own body and had the
Speaker 1: legal right to make it. That is in large part
Speaker 1: because of Gloria Steinum. With just a typewriter, a microphone,
Speaker 1: a few extraordinary women alongside her, and an absolute refusal
Speaker 1: to accept the world as it was, Gloria Steinem helped
Speaker 1: shape a century, and today she's letting us into her
Speaker 1: living room. Now this isn't just any living room. This room,
Speaker 1: with yellow walls and yellow curtains, a green velvet couch
Speaker 1: and a big, comfy red chair, sacred objects, talismans, photographs,
Speaker 1: books all around, is one of the rooms where the
Speaker 1: women's movement began. Women from all over the world have
Speaker 1: passed through it. Ideas that changed history have been spoken
Speaker 1: aloud in it, And somehow, even with all that legacy,
Speaker 1: it still feels like the most glorious thing imaginable, a
Speaker 1: room where no one is more important than anyone else.
Speaker 1: But let me back up. Before she became one of
Speaker 1: the leading voices of the women's movement, she was a
Speaker 1: journalist in New York City. In nineteen sixty three, she
Speaker 1: went under cover at the Playboy Club, posing as one
Speaker 1: of the famous Bunnies. She worked for weeks and quietly
Speaker 1: documented what life was really like for the women behind
Speaker 1: the fantasy. Her story, a Bunny's Tale, became a sensation.
Speaker 1: What followed was a lifelong, relentless pursuit of equality, co
Speaker 1: founding Miss magazine, which brought women's stories into mainstream conversation,
Speaker 1: helping establish the National Women's political Caucus, advocating for reproductive freedom,
Speaker 1: financial independence, and equal representation not just as talking points,
Speaker 1: but as lived urgency. Gloria Steinem didn't just write about
Speaker 1: changing the rules women were expected to live by. She
Speaker 1: went after the rules themselves. At almost ninety two years old,
Speaker 1: in just a few weeks, she's one of the last
Speaker 1: living architects of the modern women's movement. The women who
Speaker 1: built this world alongside her, many of whom she considered
Speaker 1: dear friends, are gone. She is still here, still in
Speaker 1: her apartment, convening talking circles, still lighting torches.
Speaker 2: But when they asked me who I'm passing my torch to,
Speaker 2: I always say, I'm keeping my torch, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: I'm using my torch to light other torches, because unless
Speaker 2: each one of us has a torch, we can't see
Speaker 2: where the hell were going.
Speaker 1: She doesn't give many interviews inside her home anymore. The
Speaker 1: last time a camera was in her living room for
Speaker 1: a sit down interview was Architectural Digest in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Before that, Oprah in twenty twenty one. This past year,
Speaker 1: I've gotten to spend some really good time with Gloria
Speaker 1: her home as one of her fellows. Now. The first
Speaker 1: time I met Gloria, I didn't know what to expect.
Speaker 1: I had read all of her words, and she and
Speaker 1: her friends welcomed me. I sat across from her, and
Speaker 1: I thought I would be nervous, but I actually felt
Speaker 1: completely at ease. Gloria beautifully accepts people wherever they are
Speaker 1: on their path, and she's completely without ego. She is
Speaker 1: the first person to tell you she is no different
Speaker 1: from anyone else. One of my favorite lines that she
Speaker 1: says when people come up to her and nervously ask
Speaker 1: what will happen when our daughters don't know who you
Speaker 1: are anymore? And she says, It's not important that they
Speaker 1: know who I am, It's important that they know who
Speaker 1: they are, and she means it. Emma Watson once said
Speaker 1: about Gloria that it's almost as if from birth Gloria
Speaker 1: was calibrated like a compass to true North and is
Speaker 1: now patiently and with good humor, making her way toward
Speaker 1: that destination. I love that line because it is so
Speaker 1: true and so fitting. Gloria believes in personal testimony, the
Speaker 1: sharing and passing on of women's stories. I mean, she
Speaker 1: often says that sharing her honest stories with other women
Speaker 1: is one of the most feminist things we can do,
Speaker 1: and I think that's a big part of the magic
Speaker 1: of the talking circles she holds in her living room.
Speaker 1: As her fellow I've gotten to throw some and attend
Speaker 1: some people of all ages and backgrounds and experiences gather
Speaker 1: to share their honest perspectives. It's obvious she's made it
Speaker 1: her mission to understand stories that are not her own.
Speaker 1: Gloria deeply respects and learns from women and their heritage.
Speaker 1: One of the things I have come to love most
Speaker 1: about Gloria is her plain common sense. She calls things
Speaker 1: out as she sees them, as they are, and it
Speaker 1: will make you laugh out loud. She just sees through
Speaker 1: the noise of how things are and straight into how
Speaker 1: they could be. It's definitely one of her superpowers. Another
Speaker 1: one is that she never loses hope. Sometimes the world
Speaker 1: Gloria and envisions can feel impossibly far away, wildly optimistic even,
Speaker 1: But the longer I spend with her, the more I
Speaker 1: believe it's possible that the work of true equality can
Speaker 1: get done. And you know what else, I've come to
Speaker 1: believe spending time with her, that the work trying to
Speaker 1: get there really matters too. The world Gloria envisions is
Speaker 1: not the world we live in, not yet, but she's
Speaker 1: never once acted like it wasn't coming now. In almost
Speaker 1: every interview, people ask Gloria about the future of feminism
Speaker 1: what does she see coming? And I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you now, I did not ask her that, mostly because
Speaker 1: I find it to be an annoying question, and at
Speaker 1: ninety two years old, I was not about to annoy her.
Speaker 1: But I did ask what she thinks we all have
Speaker 1: to look forward to at ninety two, and I promise
Speaker 1: you you want to hear her answer at the end
Speaker 1: of this interview, do not miss that part. So today
Speaker 1: I'm bringing you into the home of a woman who
Speaker 1: changed hours. It's time to question everything with the one
Speaker 1: and only Gloria Steina. Gloria, you are known for so
Speaker 1: many things, but you are legendary for these talking circles
Speaker 1: in your living room, which is where we are right now,
Speaker 1: and you have an open door policy. Women from all
Speaker 1: over the world have come and sat in this living room.
Speaker 1: Where did the open door policy come from?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the idea of a movement, a social
Speaker 2: justice movement, women's movement, civil rights movement, is meant to
Speaker 2: include everybody because it's trying to both change society and
Speaker 2: assist society. So why would you keep anybody out?
Speaker 1: Was it like that in your home growing up? Did
Speaker 1: you have an open door policy?
Speaker 2: No, because my father had a little summer resort in
Speaker 2: southern Michigan, and in the winter time he put us
Speaker 2: all in a house trailer, me, my sister, the dog,
Speaker 2: my mother, and we went to Florida or California, so
Speaker 2: we didn't exactly have a door. I mean, we stayed
Speaker 2: in trailer parks, which are themselves very democratic, Butty stays there.
Speaker 2: But it wasn't like having a house.
Speaker 1: Do you have fond memories of traveling and being on
Speaker 1: the road on car trips as a kid or did
Speaker 1: you not like it?
Speaker 2: No? I think I liked it. But what I liked
Speaker 2: about it was that I could sit in the backseat
Speaker 2: and read a book and my mother would say, look
Speaker 2: out the window you and I would say, but I
Speaker 2: looked a while ago.
Speaker 1: Do you remember what you would read? Would you read
Speaker 1: Little Women? Yes?
Speaker 2: Louisa May Alcott was my hero, not only because of
Speaker 2: Little Women, which was something she wrote for young readers,
Speaker 2: but she also wrote stories about the Civil War and
Speaker 2: very adult and sometimes depressed stories too.
Speaker 1: Did books give you a larger imagination of what it
Speaker 1: meant to be a woman or did you find them
Speaker 1: to be constrictive at the time.
Speaker 2: Well, because I wasn't going to school that much, and
Speaker 2: I was reading all the time, and reading indiscriminately. I
Speaker 2: would just go to the little local library and read
Speaker 2: up and down the shelves. So I read all kinds
Speaker 2: of things that I probably wouldn't have been directed to read,
Speaker 2: not because of any reason except maybe age, But I
Speaker 2: just was hooked.
Speaker 1: I have a very funnier dorky saying that I love
Speaker 1: shoes and I love books, and they both take you places.
Speaker 1: So as a kid, your mantra was everybody has a
Speaker 1: home but me. Do you feel like, as an adult
Speaker 1: your mantra has changed to I have a home for everybody.
Speaker 2: Well, definitely, I feel I have a home now and
Speaker 2: this has really been my permanent home for a very
Speaker 2: long time, first shared with a roommate, barbonessum and now
Speaker 2: on my own. I suppose growing up, I imagined that
Speaker 2: you couldn't have a home until you were married and
Speaker 2: had children. I didn't understand that women on our own
Speaker 2: could also have a home. It took a while.
Speaker 1: It must have been very exciting when you moved into
Speaker 1: this place. Did it mean something more than just a
Speaker 1: place to lay your head?
Speaker 2: Yes? Well, my roommate Barbonessa, the artist Burboness, we had
Speaker 2: been living in a one room studio on fifty sixth
Speaker 2: Street between fifth and sixth here and then finally I
Speaker 2: can't remember how we found this, but this was like
Speaker 2: twice as much space. You were excited.
Speaker 1: I can imagine sharing a one room apartment in New
Speaker 1: York is not easy, even if you like your roommate.
Speaker 1: You said you always wanted a conventional home as a kid.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like this has become a symbol for you?
Speaker 1: Or more a symbol that you share with other people.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to have, as who was at Virginia set
Speaker 2: a room of one's own. I think we all need that,
Speaker 2: and women are probably less likely to have that, So
Speaker 2: I'm happy about that. As I was saying, I moved
Speaker 2: here first with the roommates, so it kind of arrived
Speaker 2: in steps. I don't think I moved in and thought, oh, yes,
Speaker 2: this is it. I'm going to stay here forever. Oh really,
Speaker 2: it just happened.
Speaker 1: Because you've told me before that you didn't decorate right away, right,
Speaker 1: it took like ten years to decorate this place.
Speaker 2: Well, I never did decorate exactly. I mean there was
Speaker 2: a friend who was living here from London and she
Speaker 2: was helping a man friend of mine decorate his apartment.
Speaker 2: Oh wow. So while she was doing that, she took
Speaker 2: me around to auctions and taught me how to bid
Speaker 2: on whatever it was that I wanted. I mean, all
Speaker 2: of these things are old.
Speaker 1: I think they all have meaning though, Like you have
Speaker 1: so many elephants, which you love the elephant painting behind me.
Speaker 1: You have books from all of your travels. All of
Speaker 1: the knickknacks feel like they're meant to be there. They
Speaker 1: have a place.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean they arrived somewhat accidentally, but by
Speaker 2: now they have a place. I mean, this door is
Speaker 2: a granary door from India. Even though I didn't buy
Speaker 2: it in India, I bought it here in New York.
Speaker 1: You have such happy memories of India, it seems you
Speaker 1: talk about your time there quite a lot.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I went there shortly after I graduated from college.
Speaker 2: I was engaged in trying to get unengaged, and also
Speaker 2: I fell in love with the country because it was
Speaker 2: newly independent, celebrating and finding itself, and also so diverse.
Speaker 2: You know, there are fourteen major languages within India.
Speaker 1: I think, do you remember when you got engaged? Kind
Speaker 1: of yeah, did it stress you out or what did
Speaker 1: that moment feel like?
Speaker 2: I think I didn't quite know what to do with myself.
Speaker 2: I was about to graduate. I didn't know what would happen.
Speaker 2: He lived in New York and understood Manhattan, so that
Speaker 2: was already kind of an interesting mystery. He was also
Speaker 2: the best friend of the fiance of my friend, a
Speaker 2: young woman who was a student with me, so it
Speaker 2: had that kind of almost familial connection.
Speaker 1: Do you have a really happy childhood memory that sticks
Speaker 1: out to you.
Speaker 2: Well, I was in love with animals always, so the
Speaker 2: dog would have puppies, and I couldn't give up the puppies.
Speaker 2: I would get a rabbit for Easter. I don't think
Speaker 2: this happens anymore, I hope. But if you bought Easter
Speaker 2: shoes as a child, they gave you a baby bunny,
Speaker 2: you're kidding, Nor.
Speaker 1: For every pair of shoes, that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Well, no, not one per customer, I think, you know.
Speaker 2: So there was this white bunny that I was always
Speaker 2: kind of worried about with all the wild bunnies that
Speaker 2: were not white that were out there, you know, But
Speaker 2: I hope it was.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a really sweet memory. I wasn't expecting you
Speaker 1: to say that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I've never seen you light up as much as when
Speaker 1: there was a dog staying here for a few days.
Speaker 1: So I got to see your love of animals up close.
Speaker 2: Yes, No, I was always growing up with animals, and
Speaker 2: I loved horses. Think girls and horses have a special connection.
Speaker 2: And there was a period of time in which I
Speaker 2: had a horse in a nearby farm garage or something.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was too much for me. I couldn't
Speaker 2: take care of the horse properly, but it was great.
Speaker 1: And I know you love New York and you love
Speaker 1: Manhattan so much. I'm surprised because you can't really have
Speaker 1: animals here.
Speaker 2: Well, you could always have animals in your house, cats
Speaker 2: and dogs, right, And I'm not going to have a
Speaker 2: horse again. But I love New York because it's big,
Speaker 2: it's diverse, you can walk around. It was once Mannahatta
Speaker 2: Island before Europeans showed up. I mean, it has a
Speaker 2: long history.
Speaker 1: When you think about your mom and your dad, is
Speaker 1: there a trait that you think you've inherited from each
Speaker 1: one of them that stands out?
Speaker 2: Yes, I think so. I mean my mother had been
Speaker 2: a journalist before she was married. She worked for a newspaper.
Speaker 2: She loved it. I remember her teaching me how to
Speaker 2: to use a reporter's notebook. They're the long, skinny ones
Speaker 2: you put in your hand, you know, so you can
Speaker 2: write with the other hand. So that acquired an attraction.
Speaker 2: My father had this little summer resource where people danced
Speaker 2: over the water and under the stars, as his slogan
Speaker 2: put it, and he was happy, never having a job
Speaker 2: in his life. He always worked for himself, so I
Speaker 2: probably absorbed from both of them in obvious ways.
Speaker 1: It's funny that you bring that up, because in so
Speaker 1: many of your interviews when you talk about your dad,
Speaker 1: you mentioned two things. You mentioned that he never had
Speaker 1: a job. He was always freelance, and you seem to
Speaker 1: really admire that and that he could sustain his own way.
Speaker 1: And then secondly, that he never wore hats. Why did
Speaker 1: you like that he never wore a hat.
Speaker 2: I suppose hats were a symbol of business or conformity
Speaker 2: or upper middle class, because if you worked in a factory,
Speaker 2: you didn't wear a hat. I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 2: but they had some kind of symbolism. So I was
Speaker 2: glad he didn't share that.
Speaker 1: You liked that he was unconventional.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I thought of it that
Speaker 2: way exactly. And he was also very kind. His cure
Speaker 2: for everything was a movie in a malted which is
Speaker 2: pretty good.
Speaker 1: Actually, when's the last time you got to enjoy that combination?
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't remember, so so long ago, I mean
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 1: Pre ten Speaking of movies, I did not realize how
Speaker 1: much you loved Breakfast at Tiffany's Gloria. That movie had
Speaker 1: such an impact on your life. Do you remember when
Speaker 1: you first saw it?
Speaker 2: Well, also, Truman Capote had written about her as a character, yeah,
Speaker 2: before the movie, and actually in his story she leaves
Speaker 2: and goes to Africa. I mean there's more of her life,
Speaker 2: I think in his story than there is in the movie.
Speaker 2: But in both cases, she just seemed free. And she'd
Speaker 2: had difficult childhood. She had a brother who was ill
Speaker 2: or she worried about. You know, it wasn't all fun,
Speaker 2: but it was free.
Speaker 1: Do you consider your childhood difficult?
Speaker 2: No? I don't, actually, you know, because I always felt
Speaker 2: loved my parents. I mean, life was not easy for them,
Speaker 2: but they always treated me like an equal member of
Speaker 2: the household.
Speaker 1: It was a democratic household.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Gloria.
Speaker 1: Before we ever even met, I had read all your books.
Speaker 1: I had not read this one. I had no idea
Speaker 1: that you had written five hundred pages on self esteem.
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't exactly know how that happened.
Speaker 1: We've never talked about this book, and so when I
Speaker 1: was reading it, this is when I found out how
Speaker 1: Breakfast at Tiffany's impacted you. Will you share why it
Speaker 1: made you so emotional? Because in this book you talk
Speaker 1: about tearing up? Was it the freedom.
Speaker 2: Because she was totally on her own. She had great
Speaker 2: hopes but not much support. She had come to me
Speaker 2: or on her own, I think, and she had a
Speaker 2: brother at home she was looking after who was vulnerable.
Speaker 2: In some way, she was her own self and making
Speaker 2: her own world in a way that probably was not
Speaker 2: so true. Say of my earlier heroine, Louisa may Alcott.
Speaker 1: Well, a friend told you that you turned yourself into
Speaker 1: Holly overnight, and then in this book you write about
Speaker 1: lacing your hair with blonde streaks, wearing kerchiefs, and even
Speaker 1: rocking the big iconic sunglasses. I didn't realize that it
Speaker 1: was from that movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course I was nearsighted, so I eated glasses. Anyway.
Speaker 2: They were all prescriptions, right, I mean, you're very utilitary,
Speaker 2: but she was. It was a movie about a free woman. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you consider her a feminist?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't know if I thought about it in
Speaker 2: those terms, and I don't know if she did either.
Speaker 2: But she was clearly trying to lead her own life
Speaker 2: by coming to me.
Speaker 1: Did the movie make you think about romance or love
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 2: Not really, because it wasn't what it was about She
Speaker 2: wasn't seeking engagement and marriage, She was trying to live
Speaker 2: a life.
Speaker 1: If I was going to watch the movie for the
Speaker 1: first time, which I have to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: I only saw it for the first time last night,
Speaker 1: what would it teach me about you?
Speaker 2: I think that in a period of time in which
Speaker 2: it wasn't so easy to be an independent woman. It
Speaker 2: was after World War Two, I think people striving to
Speaker 2: make suburbs and families and had been more absent during
Speaker 2: the war, so she stood out as someone who was
Speaker 2: making her own life.
Speaker 1: Were you excited when you got to have a cameo
Speaker 1: in First Wives Club later in life? Did it make
Speaker 1: you think of your dad and his love of film?
Speaker 2: No, I don't know why I did it exactly because.
Speaker 1: You show up at the end the final scene.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I knew people who were acting in it.
Speaker 2: But it's very nervous making to feel you're in a
Speaker 2: movie scene that everything you do is showing somehow well.
Speaker 1: I also read that clothes used to give you anxiety,
Speaker 1: so I can't imagine you loving a film set and
Speaker 1: getting all dolled up.
Speaker 2: It was a realistic movie, so we did not get
Speaker 2: that dolled up. I mean we were not wearing somebody
Speaker 2: else's clothes. I don't think.
Speaker 1: No, you looked like you. You had a very chic
Speaker 1: black suit and a nice blowout. You definitely looked like you.
Speaker 1: You wanted to be a dancer, and that's part of
Speaker 1: what got you out of Toledo. So you were always
Speaker 1: sort of into entertainment in some way. What made you
Speaker 1: pick up those tap shoes early.
Speaker 2: On probably Shirley Temple or seeing movies and there was
Speaker 2: adult black man who was her tap dancing partner. And
Speaker 2: I mean she was one of the few young women
Speaker 2: in movies, so she seemed like she had her own life,
Speaker 2: I think, and movies were a big source of escape.
Speaker 2: As I was saying, my father's idea of escape and
Speaker 2: reward was a malted in a movie.
Speaker 1: And then I was reading that you would help support
Speaker 1: your mother through tap dancing too. Did it become something
Speaker 1: you felt like you had to do or you always
Speaker 1: loved it? No?
Speaker 2: I always loved it, And I don't know that I
Speaker 2: ever thought I was good enough to have a career.
Speaker 2: But where other students might have been playing basketball or something,
Speaker 2: I was going to tap dancing classes.
Speaker 1: The other thing I want to bring up from that
Speaker 1: book before we move on to other questions, is that
Speaker 1: you wrote that you had a lifetime ambition to run
Speaker 1: a diner one day. I did not know that.
Speaker 2: About you well, because with my parents and my sister
Speaker 2: we were on the road going to Florida or California.
Speaker 2: We were always stopping in diners. Diners are very democratic places.
Speaker 2: Everybody is welcome in a diner, which is a great feeling.
Speaker 2: So I thought being able to have a diner by
Speaker 2: the side of the road would be a great life.
Speaker 1: You write, you get very specific. You say you wanted
Speaker 1: one with blue Gingham curtains and brand muffins. And when
Speaker 1: you wrote that, you were not of the brand muffin
Speaker 1: age yet what did you love about brand muffins?
Speaker 2: Is there an age for brand muffins? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just like them, right, you love them to this
Speaker 1: day too. Yeah, if you were going to open a diner,
Speaker 1: who would you name it after?
Speaker 2: Diners aren't named after people. They're usually just disused dining
Speaker 2: cars from trains that are placed by the highway and
Speaker 2: somebody runs them. I mean. The appeal of them is
Speaker 2: that they welcome everybody and at all hours. So in
Speaker 2: the middle of the night, there are truck drivers. During
Speaker 2: the day, there are people going to school, or just
Speaker 2: a very democratic, interesting place.
Speaker 1: When you see everyone from different backgrounds and different industries together,
Speaker 1: I can tell you're smiling. What about that image makes
Speaker 1: you so happy?
Speaker 2: Well, it's unlimited. You know, frequently in life in college,
Speaker 2: people we know is some limited, probably less than in
Speaker 2: the rest of life. People who work in offices, which
Speaker 2: I haven't done, really are limited. So a diner is
Speaker 2: infinitely democratic and everywhere. I remember being in one in
Speaker 2: South Africa that was like that. It was an old
Speaker 2: train car in the middle of the city and everybody
Speaker 2: went there.
Speaker 1: I didn't know this about you. I mean, it's hard
Speaker 1: to take you out of this beautiful living room, but
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna have to take you to a
Speaker 1: diner one day. There's so many good ones in New York. Yeah,
Speaker 1: your dad was your movie buddy growing up. Do you
Speaker 1: think he would have gotten a kick out of seeing
Speaker 1: you on the big screen and First Wives Club and
Speaker 1: seeing you tap dancing with Barbara Walters at a benefit concert.
Speaker 1: Do you think he would have liked all that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Probably, Yeah, because he was on the edge of
Speaker 2: of show business. Himself because he had this summer dance pavilion,
Speaker 2: and he had his two points of pride that he
Speaker 2: never wore a hat and he never had a job, right,
Speaker 2: so he was on the edges of show business.
Speaker 1: Do you think that if social media existed that there
Speaker 1: would have been some amazing conversations that would have been
Speaker 1: caught on set or behind the scenes of any of
Speaker 1: these big moments of you on stage or in the films.
Speaker 2: Well, they exist anyway. We don't need somebody to record them.
Speaker 2: They're part of our life. I'm glad we have an Internet,
Speaker 2: especially globally internationally, it's important that we know each other.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about that? You're saying how important
Speaker 1: it is to live in the present is what I'm
Speaker 1: garnering from that statement.
Speaker 2: Well, and also in the world, we're all on one
Speaker 2: globe hurdling through space. The boundaries of nations are totally
Speaker 2: made up. We try to communicate beyond language as best
Speaker 2: we can, so we are all passengers on spaceship Earth.
Speaker 1: The idea that boundaries of countries are made up, it's
Speaker 1: so true. I've never thought about that. They're totally arbitrary,
Speaker 1: made up by people in buildings.
Speaker 2: And made up by colonialism in some cases.
Speaker 1: And before we started recording, we were talking about men
Speaker 1: and you said that oftentimes we think of men as
Speaker 1: singular and women as a collective, and I had never
Speaker 1: thought about that. It's so true, it seems so obvious.
Speaker 1: And having spent time with you, and if people watch
Speaker 1: your speeches, you give us these very obvious truths that
Speaker 1: for some reason are not obvious to everybody. Was that
Speaker 1: a skill that you had as a kid. Can you
Speaker 1: point back to it or where did that come from?
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's a skill. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: just describing the world. Men of all races tend to
Speaker 2: have a source of livelihood outside the home more than women,
Speaker 2: who frequently now also have jobs, but still more than
Speaker 2: men probably have a reality that's at home and raising
Speaker 2: children and so on.
Speaker 1: It's just your view of the world that was so unique.
Speaker 1: You just saw it.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I mean, I was just
Speaker 2: living a life. My sister, who was nine years older
Speaker 2: no longer with us, but she lived a very unusual
Speaker 2: life because she was a gemalogist, which is an unusual profession.
Speaker 2: But then she married and had six children and had
Speaker 2: a household where she always was and so on, so
Speaker 2: she was drawn to that.
Speaker 1: How did you feel about that choice?
Speaker 2: Fine? No, I mean, you know, as long as it
Speaker 2: was what she wanted, which it was. And also I
Speaker 2: was grateful to her because she was often in earlier
Speaker 2: years looking after me. I didn't know that, well, she
Speaker 2: was nine years older.
Speaker 1: For some reason, I'd imagined you as little Gloria, sort
Speaker 1: of looking after yourself and looking after everybody else.
Speaker 2: Well, some of that was true, because when she was
Speaker 2: seventeen and went off to college, I was obviously way younger, right,
Speaker 2: So we were separate from those years.
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you about your glasses a
Speaker 1: little bit more. I can't even believe i'm holding them.
Speaker 1: These are so iconic, and I know you think that's ridiculous,
Speaker 1: but they became such a symbol for you, and I
Speaker 1: think for the women's movement too. When did you first
Speaker 1: put these on?
Speaker 2: Well? I started to need glasses because I was nearsighted
Speaker 2: when I was quite young, I don't know, nine, ten
Speaker 2: or eleven, something like that, so I needed glasses. I
Speaker 2: tried to wear contact lenses, but it was too difficult. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're annoying. Yeah, So I don't know I must have
Speaker 2: seen other women people I don't know who with glasses
Speaker 2: like these that kind of appealed to me.
Speaker 1: Right well, I'm thinking it was Holly from Breakfast at Tiffany's.
Speaker 1: But then did she wear those glasses. I don't think so,
Speaker 1: not these kinds a different sunglass. But then you were speaking,
Speaker 1: you were making all these public speech is, and you've
Speaker 1: said to me before that you felt as if they
Speaker 1: kind of put a shield between you and the audience
Speaker 1: because you were nervous spears.
Speaker 2: But I didn't keep them on while I was speaking.
Speaker 2: You didn't know, because you don't want that kind of
Speaker 2: barrier between yourself and the people you're speaking to.
Speaker 1: So what did they do for you?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm near sighted, I mean, you know so, so
Speaker 2: they were truly utilitarian, Yeah, right, right now, I get
Speaker 2: why you don't understand why I'm making a big.
Speaker 1: Deal out of them. That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: I mean they were bigger. I mean, most women's sunglasses
Speaker 2: were not like pilot's glasses like those.
Speaker 1: Right well, just in so many of the iconic photographs
Speaker 1: of you, you are wearing those. It was kind of
Speaker 1: a style of the times. But it did signal to
Speaker 1: me that they meant something to you. I'm just not
Speaker 1: sure what.
Speaker 2: Well, they started out being a utilitarian. They were kind
Speaker 2: of a style just because they were bigger and somehow
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but kind of defined
Speaker 2: in some kind of way. But if I hadn't been nearsighted,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have been wearing those.
Speaker 1: We went all the way back to nearsighted. I got it, Okay. Well,
Speaker 1: I did read in that book, that five hundred page
Speaker 1: book about self esteem that was very good, that you
Speaker 1: said that girl who was a little self conscious and
Speaker 1: awkward put on the glasses and you said you felt
Speaker 1: like a plump brunette from Toledo, too tall and too much,
Speaker 1: too pudding face. I'd never heard you describe yourself that way.
Speaker 1: Does that feel like that was such a long time ago?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, now, because I'm old right and now it
Speaker 2: does feel like a long time ago. And also I'm
Speaker 2: okay with my life. I'm not assuming that whatever I'm
Speaker 2: doing now, eventually I will have to get married and
Speaker 2: have children, which went on for a long time, especially
Speaker 2: for those of us who you know, were born influenced
Speaker 2: by the war and post war that.
Speaker 1: Was hanging over your head.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I assumed. And I remember when I
Speaker 2: went off to India after college and my mother said
Speaker 2: to me. I can't remember exactly, but the idea was, go,
Speaker 2: do you go off to India because you'll fall in
Speaker 2: love with traveling and so on, and you won't feel
Speaker 2: you have to live in a certain way.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you went after college and I know you
Speaker 1: were struck by the women that you met there. What
Speaker 1: did you see that was so different that you hadn't
Speaker 1: seen in America?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, there was a national independence movement
Speaker 2: symbolized by Gandhi and independence from colonialism, so that was huge. Then. Also,
Speaker 2: it's one country, but it's fourteen major languages, very diverse,
Speaker 2: and I started out living in women's college in Delhi,
Speaker 2: so you know, I had that as a kind of
Speaker 2: a way into the diversity the culture. Besides then traveling
Speaker 2: around the country. A lot of us have the good
Speaker 2: luck of being introduced to the world by physical travel
Speaker 2: and not just for a vacation, but actually living someplace different.
Speaker 1: And some of the women that you meant there were
Speaker 1: sort of leading that movement.
Speaker 2: Right, everybody was part of the independence movement because of
Speaker 2: Gandhi and independence from British rule.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I have been struck
Speaker 1: by getting to know you is that you really can
Speaker 1: deflect a compliment.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm realistic at least.
Speaker 1: Do you not like when people compliment you? Do you
Speaker 1: not believe them? Does it embarrass you? What is that?
Speaker 2: Well, it depends on the situation. I don't think you
Speaker 2: can generalize exactly. I mean, when somebody compliments you about
Speaker 2: something you've actually done, right, it's pure pleasure and gratification. Right.
Speaker 2: If they compliment you in order to get something from you,
Speaker 2: it's very different. I mean, so it depends right.
Speaker 1: You can feel the difference too. How do you feel
Speaker 1: when people embrace you in public? Are you a hugger?
Speaker 1: Are you a handshaker, a waiver?
Speaker 2: Well, it depends on do you want to hug this person? No,
Speaker 2: I'm certainly a hugger.
Speaker 1: I found you to be so warm. You really embrace people.
Speaker 2: I think shaking hands feels so kind of official. Not
Speaker 2: that there's anything wrong with it, there isn't, but friends
Speaker 2: seem more likely to hug.
Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself a storyteller?
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't describe myself that way because it sounds
Speaker 2: as if what you're telling is not true. So I
Speaker 2: think narrative is everything, probably because that's the way our
Speaker 2: brains work.
Speaker 1: How would you describe yourself?
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever had to describe alf.
Speaker 1: So when you put those glasses on and you started
Speaker 1: really delving into the feminist movement, you wrote, I was
Speaker 1: rescued by feminism.
Speaker 2: How so well, and without feminism I would have can
Speaker 2: continued to be in a nineteen fifties atmosphere in which
Speaker 2: women were supposed to get married, have children, maybe have
Speaker 2: a job at not a whole consuming job, live in
Speaker 2: a house in the suburbs. That was the post war ideal.
Speaker 1: So one of my mom's friends told me a story
Speaker 1: about how the women's movement changed her life in that
Speaker 1: exact way. She was married and thought she had to
Speaker 1: have children, and because of the movement, she ended up
Speaker 1: getting divorced, becoming the head of the library association and
Speaker 1: had a whole different life. She's been married three times
Speaker 1: and has bought a house and had all these adventures.
Speaker 1: And when I share that with you, I can tell
Speaker 1: there's a joy. What is the joy when you hear
Speaker 1: those stories that.
Speaker 2: She was able to express and to create a life
Speaker 2: of her own, what she wanted to create, that she
Speaker 2: wasn't told what to do.
Speaker 1: And do you feel any type of gratification that all
Speaker 1: the work that you and your friends put into the
Speaker 1: movement helped on LEAs shure, I do.
Speaker 2: But the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay
Speaker 2: and lesbian movement, I mean, it's all one movement about
Speaker 2: the ability to be who you truly are.
Speaker 1: What do you think about destiny.
Speaker 2: I don't think I believe in destiny. I don't know,
Speaker 2: of course, but I think we're more likely to create
Speaker 2: our own destiny.
Speaker 1: So when I interview a lot of people who have
Speaker 1: been on big stages or built big companies, I find
Speaker 1: that a lot of people turn to the idea of
Speaker 1: destiny because they think, how in the world could this
Speaker 1: have been me? Out of the billions of people. When
Speaker 1: you were one of the faces and leaders of the
Speaker 1: women's movement, did you ever have those thoughts like I
Speaker 1: can't believe this is my life.
Speaker 2: No, because it was always an effort, and it was
Speaker 2: always part of a big and diverse movement. It wasn't
Speaker 2: as if I didn't feel like I was the chairperson
Speaker 2: of some company or something.
Speaker 1: Do you think in hindsight people misinterpret what the movement
Speaker 1: was like. Was it very different?
Speaker 2: Living it in the beginning especially, I think there was
Speaker 2: a lot of misunderstanding. I remember getting a call from Man,
Speaker 2: a friend also an editor at Show Magazine, which was
Speaker 2: a big, beautiful arts magazine where we all worked to
Speaker 2: some extent or something, and he called me up and
Speaker 2: he said, Gloria, I didn't know you were a lesbian.
Speaker 2: He was just so convinced that everybody right.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, one of my favorite lines that you
Speaker 1: taught me is that I think it was Flow Kennedy,
Speaker 1: who you know. People would come heckle you guys when
Speaker 1: you were doing your speeches, and they would wait the
Speaker 1: whole time, raise their hand, heckle you, and say something
Speaker 1: about you being a lesbian. And then what would Flow say?
Speaker 2: Are you my alternative? Yeah? I thought that was brilliant
Speaker 2: because it didn't say anything. Well, you made the audience laugh.
Speaker 1: Well, you really harnessed comedy. Was that intentional?
Speaker 2: Well? I loved that. Was the week that was, which
Speaker 2: was the show I was working for. I was doing
Speaker 2: a department, which just meant that I was reading vast
Speaker 2: numbers of global newspapers and finding peculiar items to list.
Speaker 1: You must have loved that job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fun.
Speaker 1: I know how much you love Flow. You talk about
Speaker 1: her the way you write about her, I can tell
Speaker 1: how much you love her. There's this quote that you loved.
Speaker 1: She said, the purpose of ass kicking is not that
Speaker 1: your ass gets kicked at the right time or for
Speaker 1: the right reasons. It's to keep your ass sensitive. I
Speaker 1: don't even know what that means. Why did you love
Speaker 1: that quote? Well, you know what it means, right, The
Speaker 1: purpose of ass kicking is not No, I don't understand it.
Speaker 2: Tell me, well, it's not that somebody's criticizing you or
Speaker 2: your group or something in an accurate way, but that
Speaker 2: it keeps you open to input, criticism, praise, whatever. It
Speaker 2: is a world around you, so you don't get insulated.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Now, Flow was wonderful. She was a pioneer lawyer when
Speaker 2: very few women, much less black women, were lawyers. She
Speaker 2: was distinctive looking, with her assy hat and her job
Speaker 2: pers and so on. We were speaking partners for quite
Speaker 2: a while, as I was with Dorothy Pittman Hughes, because
Speaker 2: I mean, I was afraid I didn't want to speak
Speaker 2: by myself and Also, I thought it misrepresented the women's
Speaker 2: movement to have one white woman speaking, or one anybody
Speaker 2: you know, So to have two diverse women seem much better.
Speaker 1: What did black women teach you about feminism?
Speaker 2: Just that it's for everybody. It's for all women and
Speaker 2: men too. I mean, it's just about equality.
Speaker 1: Did Flow or Dorothy help you find your voice?
Speaker 2: Yes? I don't think I would have gone out to
Speaker 2: speak without them all by myself.
Speaker 1: When did that start to absolve the connotation that to
Speaker 1: be a part of the women's movement must mean that
Speaker 1: you were a lesbian, because I remember even as a
Speaker 1: kid that lingered in my childhood.
Speaker 2: I guess the idea of women. I'm not sure why. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but women choosing the company of other women was unusual
Speaker 2: enough unless you were all housewives, taking care of children
Speaker 2: or doing something acceptable.
Speaker 1: You seem to have an aversion to being considered a
Speaker 1: mother to the movement. I've read that you'd rather be
Speaker 1: considered a sister to it. Why.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, a movement doesn't have a mother.
Speaker 2: I mean, even in more obvious things like Maman Gandhi
Speaker 2: was not the only leader of India. A movement is
Speaker 2: composed of countless diverse people who have a kind of
Speaker 2: shared hope for some greater equality.
Speaker 1: Was that part of the impetus of the talking circle?
Speaker 1: Because I can tell you one of the things I've
Speaker 1: noticed from being there is that there is no hierarchy.
Speaker 1: Whether you're a celebrity or not, there's no hierarchy. There's
Speaker 1: no hierarchy. And who's speaking. It's not a pyramid, it
Speaker 1: is a circle. Was that idea born from that?
Speaker 2: I don't think we invented talking circles. I mean I
Speaker 2: think they always were a feature of Native American culture.
Speaker 2: I remember inviting Wilma Mankeller, who was the chief of
Speaker 2: the Cherokee Nation, to a talking circle here in this
Speaker 2: living room, sitting and as we were going around, she said, well,
Speaker 2: when we do this, we have a symbol that we pass,
Speaker 2: so as each person speaks, they hold design. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously we'd reinvented the wheel, right, you know, it had
Speaker 2: always been there.
Speaker 1: Do you like the idea of a symbol, like a
Speaker 1: talking stick or something.
Speaker 2: Well, it helps keep the circle democratic. You may not
Speaker 2: need it, but it does point out that everybody should
Speaker 2: have a turn holding whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk to me about your deep listening skills.
Speaker 2: No, I don't know. I have no idea. Well, I mean,
Speaker 2: why would one want? I mean, you don't learn while
Speaker 2: you're talking.
Speaker 1: I know, but so many people don't listen actively the
Speaker 1: way you do. I notice it in talking circles. You're
Speaker 1: really actively listening, and sometimes they're long. Sometimes I want
Speaker 1: to tune out. If somebody's really drawning on when you
Speaker 1: are listening.
Speaker 2: You may decide, Okay, I'm not learning anything. I mean,
Speaker 2: that may happen, but otherwise, why would we turn down
Speaker 2: a chance to learn?
Speaker 1: I've always felt like I could learn something from everybody.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I do. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2: They're probably big differences in how much we think we
Speaker 2: might learn. What do you mean I think that I'm
Speaker 2: not sure I could learn from Trump?
Speaker 1: That's fair. You are such a non judgmental person, but
Speaker 1: you have real disdain for people who wield power in
Speaker 1: a way that you don't agree with.
Speaker 2: Well, they don't listen, you know. And I don't think
Speaker 2: Trump is known as a great listener.
Speaker 1: He's definitely not. That's not what he's known for. Do
Speaker 1: you consider yourself to be a good caretaker?
Speaker 2: Yes, I was a caretaker from my mother because we
Speaker 2: were living alone and I was looking after her from
Speaker 2: the time I was I don't know what, in the
Speaker 2: sixth grade, maybe into high school. So our roles were
Speaker 2: reversed since she was the mother and I was the
Speaker 2: child and I was looking after her. And I think
Speaker 2: that happens to lots of people in their early I.
Speaker 1: Know that you don't consider yourself the mother of a movement.
Speaker 2: No, of course, not movements. I don't think have mothers.
Speaker 1: But you have taken care of thousands of women in
Speaker 1: your life now, Yeah.
Speaker 2: But that's more like sisters, I would say, like you're
Speaker 2: looking after each.
Speaker 1: Other regardless of age.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. So what do you.
Speaker 1: Get from being with women that are younger than you?
Speaker 2: Well, I learn about you know, what plays I should see?
Speaker 2: What music is good now, what novels, what's going on politically?
Speaker 2: I mean, just we learn from difference, not sameness. So
Speaker 2: difference as a gift.
Speaker 1: My grandfather was a professor. He was such a reader
Speaker 1: and he knew so much, and I could tell that
Speaker 1: as he started to age he started to be less
Speaker 1: interested in what people had to say because he kind
Speaker 1: of knew what they were going to say or he
Speaker 1: had read about it. Do you feel that at all
Speaker 1: or are you still lit up by people?
Speaker 2: I think it depends on the person. I mean there's
Speaker 2: such a big variety coming at you, so some more
Speaker 2: than others. And I guess a good relationship is one
Speaker 2: in which you pass back and forth between who is
Speaker 2: the listener and who is the teacher.
Speaker 1: There's something about the movement that I've always wondered, because
Speaker 1: you've said you're accidentally identifiable by a movement, When did
Speaker 1: it become intentional?
Speaker 2: It never really was intentional. I mean I just realized
Speaker 2: because walking around the street, somebody would, you know, come
Speaker 2: up and say hello or tell me something or something,
Speaker 2: and I understood that it was because of the Women's
Speaker 2: movement or whatever activity, political campaign something.
Speaker 1: I just have a hard time believing that it was
Speaker 1: accidental after fifty years, Like I understand at the beginning, maybe,
Speaker 1: but you've dedicated your life.
Speaker 2: Because it's a bunch of different people. I mean I
Speaker 2: could go out in the street and there's somebody who's
Speaker 2: twelve who's not going to recognize me, and somebody who's
Speaker 2: twenty who's not, but somebody who's older. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: live experience, But the.
Speaker 1: Impact of your work remains. That twelve year old can
Speaker 1: have a credit card because of you.
Speaker 2: Well, but that twelve year old maybe doesn't know. It
Speaker 2: doesn't mean she's going to come up to me in
Speaker 2: the street and say thank you for my credit card.
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you got a credit card, your
Speaker 1: first credit card?
Speaker 2: I do, because it was very difficult because I didn't
Speaker 2: have a proper job, so I think I had to
Speaker 2: have a couple of people guaranteeing me, right the co signer.
Speaker 1: Do you remember your first purchase?
Speaker 2: Mostly I remember being on a march to the Mexican
Speaker 2: border with farm workers were marching on both sides of
Speaker 2: the border to meet at the border and have a
Speaker 2: political rally and so on. And I had kind of
Speaker 2: managed to charge all of our motel charges on my
Speaker 2: credit card, which meant when I came home that whatever
Speaker 2: the company was came and took it away. Really yeah,
Speaker 2: because as I had way overcharged or right.
Speaker 1: First of all, that's so you. Second of all, I
Speaker 1: think you hit on something that's interesting because I think
Speaker 1: that your fame led people to believe that you were
Speaker 1: rolling in the dough and they didn't realize how hard
Speaker 1: you were still working in all of these odd jobs
Speaker 1: freelancing speaking, I can't imagine, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I don't think so, because I think that I
Speaker 2: and Barbonism and all my friends, you know, we were
Speaker 2: all clearly independent, working women. I think it was evident
Speaker 2: that we hadn't inherited a family fortune.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I think some people may misinterpret that.
Speaker 2: I haven't had that experience.
Speaker 1: But maybe what do you consider your impact to be
Speaker 1: in the women's movement? If you won't take credit for
Speaker 1: any of the things, No, well, your impact.
Speaker 2: I do take credit. I mean, I hope that I
Speaker 2: have had an impact by listening to women and taking
Speaker 2: women seriously in a culture that really had trained us
Speaker 2: to take men more seriously than women, or to attribute
Speaker 2: women's seriousness to their attachment to a man, or to
Speaker 2: their wife, woud or motherhood or something. I hope and
Speaker 2: believe we helped to see women as unique individuals.
Speaker 1: I really love when you tell stories about your days
Speaker 1: on the road as an adult in your book, My
Speaker 1: Life on the Road. It seems like you felt very
Speaker 1: comfortable there, maybe because of your childhood you had gotten
Speaker 1: used to it. Did you feel like you were writing
Speaker 1: to make sense of everything? That was going on.
Speaker 2: No, because I mean I wasn't experiencing everything. I was
Speaker 2: just writing about what I did experience, and that included
Speaker 2: roadside diners and waitresses and truck drivers who were sitting
Speaker 2: at the counter, and also in other countries. I remember
Speaker 2: traveling in Eritrea on a road that was the same
Speaker 2: road that truck drivers used for commerce and so on
Speaker 2: and stopping, and it's kind of a universal culture of
Speaker 2: truck stops, which are quite democratic. Lots of different people
Speaker 2: stop there.
Speaker 1: Do you remember writing a dedication to my life on
Speaker 1: the road? Do you know where you were when you
Speaker 1: thought about writing it?
Speaker 2: No? And I'm not sure I remember the dedication either.
Speaker 1: Can I show it to you? It's my single favorite
Speaker 1: dedication of all times? Can I read a lot?
Speaker 2: And I'm glad regardless of what.
Speaker 1: The Do you want your glasses?
Speaker 2: No, it's okay, Oh yes, right, I know I was
Speaker 2: thinking about this dedication to doctor Sharp, who made an abortion,
Speaker 2: a safe abortion possible for me and I'm sure for
Speaker 2: others too, because there is now a television series about
Speaker 2: that period in London. So it minds you of that
Speaker 2: very much.
Speaker 1: Would you read it to me?
Speaker 2: This book is dedicated to doctor John Sharp of London, who,
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty seven, a decade before physicians in England
Speaker 2: could legally perform an abortion for any reason other than
Speaker 2: the health of the woman, took the considerable risk of
Speaker 2: referring for an abortion a twenty two year old American
Speaker 2: on her way to India, knowing only that she had
Speaker 2: broken an engagement at home to seek an unknown fate.
Speaker 2: He said, you must promise me two things. First, you
Speaker 2: will not tell anyone my name. Second, you will do
Speaker 2: what you want to do with your life. Dear doctor Sharp,
Speaker 2: I believe you, who knew the law was unjust, would
Speaker 2: not mind if I say this so long after your death.
Speaker 2: I've done the best I could with my life. This
Speaker 2: book is for you. The television series that's now on
Speaker 2: about the sixties in London was about that period when
Speaker 2: abortion was not illegal but possible under some circumstances. It
Speaker 2: reminds me.
Speaker 1: Is that the Glorias or is it a different show? No?
Speaker 2: What's it called? I should remember what the show is called.
Speaker 1: That's okay, we don't need the name. That's interesting though.
Speaker 1: So when I was I think thirty one, I had
Speaker 1: an abortion and I was so scared and I read
Speaker 1: that dedication.
Speaker 2: You were scared because it was illegal or because.
Speaker 1: No, it was legal. I just thought, I want kids
Speaker 1: in the future, and I didn't know what the health
Speaker 1: implications were, and I thought, what if the doctor does
Speaker 1: it wrong, and what if this ruin's my chance to
Speaker 1: have children? And I read your book Dedication over again
Speaker 1: because I had remembered it having read it right after college,
Speaker 1: and I thought, Okay, she did it. I'm going to
Speaker 1: be okay. Do you think that you recognize how many
Speaker 1: women like me have read that and thought, Okay, Gloria
Speaker 1: did it. I'm going to be okay.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the purpose of sharing our experiences,
Speaker 2: whether we're sitting at the kitchen table or we're writing
Speaker 2: a book or whatever it is, we're teaching and learning
Speaker 2: in that way.
Speaker 1: That's the gift of your writing too. I want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about questions. Do you consider questions a
Speaker 1: form of protest?
Speaker 2: Well, they can be, certainly, because you are asking for authority,
Speaker 2: challenging authority, exploring a limited reality. I mean, it depends
Speaker 2: on the why of it. But questions are very important
Speaker 2: because they expand our knowledge.
Speaker 1: And I feel like you've been questioning the status quo
Speaker 1: your whole life. Do you think that sometimes questions can
Speaker 1: be more powerful than a statement.
Speaker 2: Yes, because questions assume that there is another person. A
Speaker 2: statement is one person operation. A question assumes an audience
Speaker 2: or a partner or someone else.
Speaker 1: I like that. I've never thought about assuming a person.
Speaker 1: I thought about it as, on the other hand, like
Speaker 1: another idea, but not another person. That's very interesting. Do
Speaker 1: you think that men need feminism more than women do?
Speaker 1: Right now?
Speaker 2: It depends on which man. I don't think we can generalize.
Speaker 1: Well, talk to me about the male isolation or the
Speaker 1: masculinity crisis that we're in that people deem that we're in.
Speaker 1: What do you think about it?
Speaker 2: I haven't noticed where you have a masculinity crisis. I mean,
Speaker 2: for instance, just as one example, we've never had a
Speaker 2: female president. That's a crisis of masculinity in a different way.
Speaker 1: Right, you're right, that's a good point. I actually have
Speaker 1: questions for you about that. You've had the benefit of
Speaker 1: seeing multiple women run for president in your lifetime, and
Speaker 1: you spent time with many of the former candidates. What
Speaker 1: characteristics did you think that they all had in common?
Speaker 2: Well, there weren't that many. I mean there was Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 2: Kamala surely Chise. I mean those three. Where were there
Speaker 2: were more? I can't remember.
Speaker 1: No, I mean there were more women that ran, but
Speaker 1: not as candidates.
Speaker 2: I think they had a vision called democracy. I mean,
Speaker 2: why are we the only or one of the few
Speaker 2: democracies that's never had a female chief of state? It
Speaker 2: makes no sense.
Speaker 1: It bothers you.
Speaker 2: Well, it's counter to the definition of democracy.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you wrote a speech for Shirley
Speaker 1: Chisholm in nineteen seventy two and you said it was
Speaker 1: one of the best that you wrote. Why was it
Speaker 1: one of the best?
Speaker 2: Well, she herself was a symbol of a democracy yet
Speaker 2: to come, and she was traveling and speaking, you know,
Speaker 2: at the National Women's Political Caucus and otherwise on the road.
Speaker 2: So I have no idea if it was one of
Speaker 2: the best I wrote or not, but I was certainly
Speaker 2: proud to contribute to her campaign.
Speaker 1: When you think back to Shirley's campaign and then we
Speaker 1: think about the most recent campaign that Kamala ran, what
Speaker 1: stands out to you about where the country's at then
Speaker 1: versus now.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that Shirley Chisholm was only on the
Speaker 2: ballot in fourteen states. I think we'd have to check,
Speaker 2: but I don't think it was very many states. So
Speaker 2: that we thought of Kamala Harris as a more universal
Speaker 2: or for that matter, of Hillary Clinton as a more
Speaker 2: universal candidate is a step forward.
Speaker 1: Out of all of the women that you have met
Speaker 1: and worked with and campaigned for, what woman has been
Speaker 1: the most deserving and qualified to be president?
Speaker 2: Well? I'm not sure I know that, because I don't
Speaker 2: know everybody. But when you say that, I think about
Speaker 2: Bella Absock because she had the most worldwide view of
Speaker 2: democracy with the fewest divisions or restrictions. I think. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you walked in the street with Bella in Manhattan,
Speaker 2: truck drivers would be hanging out of the truck cab saying,
Speaker 2: give him hell Abella, And so you know, I mean
Speaker 2: she had a universal appeal that went beyond class and
Speaker 2: beyond gender.
Speaker 1: Really that must have been wonderful to be around.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, it was.
Speaker 1: Did you take anything that you learned from her to
Speaker 1: implement in your life? When you were on the road
Speaker 1: and doing these speeches.
Speaker 2: She probably encouraged all of us to go out in
Speaker 2: public and talk because she was so fearless about it.
Speaker 2: I didn't take the habit of wearing hats that was
Speaker 2: her mark, wearing a.
Speaker 1: Hat, glasses. We didn't need hats, and you had your belt.
Speaker 1: You loved belts.
Speaker 2: Huh, yeah, I guess so. I don't know why exactly.
Speaker 2: I think because I had acquired a couple of Indian
Speaker 2: concer belts.
Speaker 1: I was wondering if it had anything to do with
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, because I know that you really liked that character.
Speaker 2: Her characteristic were bracelets that she bounced bullets off, bracelets,
Speaker 2: so not so much a belt. I don't think.
Speaker 1: Well, it made me think that maybe the belt was
Speaker 1: your version. I was shocked to learn that you really
Speaker 1: helped inspire and advocate for this version of Wonder Woman
Speaker 1: that we know today. There's an article that says you
Speaker 1: literally saved her.
Speaker 2: Well only because we put her on the cover of
Speaker 2: Miss magazine. I mean she, I think DC Comics or
Speaker 2: whatever company owed her. They'd taken away all her magical powers.
Speaker 2: She was no longer living on Paradise Island, and she
Speaker 2: didn't have bracelets that she bounced bullets. You know, they
Speaker 2: had right turned her into a car hop, and we
Speaker 2: objected to them, and we put her on the cover
Speaker 2: of Miss Magazine in her original self, and they said,
Speaker 2: all right, okay, now you know she has her bracelets back,
Speaker 2: she has her magic lasso, she has you know. Well,
Speaker 2: now you leave us alone, you know.
Speaker 1: So did you see yourself and her the way you
Speaker 1: saw yourself in Hollygo Lately?
Speaker 2: At all? No, I didn't see myself as wonder woman.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can't be somebody with magical bracelets. And
Speaker 2: at last so and said, no, you just liked what
Speaker 2: she stood for. Yeah, superheroes for both boys and girls,
Speaker 2: were very important cultural figures.
Speaker 1: It's true. Are you a DC Comics or a Marvel
Speaker 1: Comics woman?
Speaker 2: I have no idea because I don't know what they do.
Speaker 1: I actually don't know either. So we talked about a
Speaker 1: lot of your female friends today, But I don't know
Speaker 1: that I've asked you about female friendship. What has female
Speaker 1: friendship meant to you in your life?
Speaker 2: I mean, some men are my community too, but it's
Speaker 2: mostly women because we share experiences, we share hopes for
Speaker 2: making change, we share some feelings of being endangered. We
Speaker 2: just share a great deal. And across national boundaries. My
Speaker 2: women friends in India who are still my friends, shared
Speaker 2: many things too.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you about the loves of your life?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have to answer anything that you
Speaker 1: don't want to.
Speaker 2: You know, it's okay. I mean I think, I guess.
Speaker 2: For a long time, I assumed I had to have children.
Speaker 2: I thought everybody had, so I had a series of
Speaker 2: relationships that continue to matter, and I think it's one
Speaker 2: of the most deep, profound ways we learn to empathize.
Speaker 2: We learn about different worlds because we're in love with
Speaker 2: somebody who's part of a different world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. I've heard you say that
Speaker 1: romance is a form of curiosity, and I'm curious who
Speaker 1: made you the most curious.
Speaker 2: I think it's shared because when you've fallen in love
Speaker 2: with somebody, you're entering into their world and you're learning
Speaker 2: about their world. It may just have been accidental that
Speaker 2: I guess. Most of the few men I've been in
Speaker 2: love with were African American men, so I'm sure I
Speaker 2: learned more than I would have without them.
Speaker 1: A lot of them that I've asked you about seem
Speaker 1: to have a real care for the world the way
Speaker 1: you did, whether it was for civil rights or elsewhere
Speaker 1: they wanted to make an impact.
Speaker 2: Yes, not that there were that man, but anyway, they
Speaker 2: were all engaged in some form of trying to make
Speaker 2: social change. Right.
Speaker 1: Has a man ever given you the ick?
Speaker 2: What is that?
Speaker 1: There's this thing that I think gen Z would coin
Speaker 1: called the ick, and it's you could be on a
Speaker 1: date with somebody and it's going well, and then you
Speaker 1: look down and his toenails are grown out, and you're like, ick, oh,
Speaker 1: can't date him anymore?
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: Okay, I like that. What's the most romantic thing anybody's
Speaker 1: done for you?
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. I'm not coming up with a
Speaker 2: specific evening exactly, but I think any way in which
Speaker 2: this person you're in love with recognizes you as a
Speaker 2: unique individual and supplies something, play a book.
Speaker 1: A movie, it's so feeling really seen. Do you think
Speaker 1: that you sought after kind men because your dad was
Speaker 1: so kind?
Speaker 2: Well, at least I knew there were kind men. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think it's more difficult for women who have an
Speaker 2: example of a cruel father and may take more time
Speaker 2: to recognize that's not the only reality.
Speaker 1: Do you remember being in a relationship and thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: this person is really teaching me about love.
Speaker 2: Not quite that general. I don't think it.
Speaker 1: Was more an example from your parents, or how did
Speaker 1: you learn how to love?
Speaker 2: I think we know from the beginning. I mean, I
Speaker 2: loved my dog cat rabbit parents' sister.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was instinctual for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is for us.
Speaker 1: Friend, I could point to a few boyfriends who have
Speaker 1: taught me how to love better, and sometimes it was
Speaker 1: bad actions, sometimes it was beautiful actions, sort of just
Speaker 1: like how some of my female friends have taught me
Speaker 1: how to be a better friend.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been your maybe. I mean I'm not sure
Speaker 2: that's true because I haven't been in a long term marriage,
Speaker 2: for instance. So we certainly continued to care about each
Speaker 2: other whether we were together or not.
Speaker 1: You were married for three years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the only the reason that we got legally
Speaker 2: married is that he had entered this country on a
Speaker 2: visa because his son was a minor and he was
Speaker 2: about to be deported.
Speaker 1: And you felt comfortable with being married at that point
Speaker 1: or did it make you nervous about what it would
Speaker 1: do to your public?
Speaker 2: Had a purpose? It had a purpose?
Speaker 1: Okay, you know all of this makes sense to me
Speaker 1: because you've said that the greatest love of your life
Speaker 1: is possibility. I really think that's so beautiful. You said
Speaker 1: you fall in love with possibilities. When was the last
Speaker 1: time that you were in love, and what was the
Speaker 1: possibility or the potential that you fell for.
Speaker 2: In love with a person or in love with an
Speaker 2: idea or.
Speaker 1: Both, the possibility of what something could be.
Speaker 2: The last time I was in love was more with
Speaker 2: a person. It was more about keeping him from being
Speaker 2: sent home to South Africa. It was about his grown
Speaker 2: up children who I cared about. But I've also been
Speaker 2: in love with women friends, not in a sexual way,
Speaker 2: but in a familial way. With Wilma Mankiller.
Speaker 1: I actually really want to ask you about that because
Speaker 1: there's this new movie called Eternity, and it's about a
Speaker 1: woman who has to choose between the two loves of
Speaker 1: her life. She dies, she goes to heaven. And I
Speaker 1: know that you've had a few loves of your life,
Speaker 1: some female friends and some men that you really loved.
Speaker 1: So I am curious. I'm going to ask you a
Speaker 1: silly question. If you were to go into the afterlife
Speaker 1: and have to choose a partner to spend eternity with,
Speaker 1: who would it be.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure because that's such an artificial situation, so
Speaker 2: it's probably more than one. But Wilma Mankiller comes to
Speaker 2: mind because she represented not just current culture, but ancient
Speaker 2: culture as well.
Speaker 1: I can't believe her real last name is mankiller.
Speaker 2: Well, as she pointed out when people asked her about it,
Speaker 2: that it was a translation of a title for someone
Speaker 2: who guarded the tribe, and if they asked her in
Speaker 2: a nice way, she would explain that, and if they
Speaker 2: asked her in an unnice way, she would say, I
Speaker 2: earned it.
Speaker 1: I love that. I also love talking to you about
Speaker 1: modern dating. I think you have the funniest opinions. They're
Speaker 1: so real. You really give me real talk. What is
Speaker 1: a dating trend from your time dating that you think
Speaker 1: people should bring back?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure what exists now. I mean maybe
Speaker 2: then we were more likely to go steady, so it
Speaker 2: was a kind of practice for marriage. I suppose, right.
Speaker 1: Did you ever care about the title? Though? You don't
Speaker 1: strike me as somebody who cared about being somebody's girlfriend
Speaker 1: and you just wanted to have a partner.
Speaker 2: That's not a title. What do you mean doesn't mean anything?
Speaker 2: Here's somebody's girlfriend. If anything has a comment on him.
Speaker 1: Say more, what does it say about him?
Speaker 2: Well, whoever that woman is says something about him about
Speaker 2: what his choices are.
Speaker 1: Interesting. Reese Witherspoon just said something very similar that I loved.
Speaker 1: I'd never heard that before. What was your best dating decade?
Speaker 1: When did you have the most fun dating? Gloria?
Speaker 2: It was a series of going steady. I mean, it
Speaker 2: wasn't like a period of time in which I was
Speaker 2: dating a lot of different people.
Speaker 1: They were chunks of relationships. Yeah, so do you hate
Speaker 1: me right now for asking you about your love life?
Speaker 2: No, No, it's just that I don't feel like I
Speaker 2: fit into what you're asking, but I'll try.
Speaker 1: I don't have any expectations. I'm just so curious. I
Speaker 1: like hearing your thoughts on relationships because I think your
Speaker 1: thoughts have no bounds.
Speaker 2: Well, in retrospect, only in retrospect. I realized that most
Speaker 2: of the few men I've felt close to were of
Speaker 2: a different race, and I think that that maybe helped
Speaker 2: them empathize with women who were striving to fit into
Speaker 2: a culture that did not always welcome them.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, you enjoyed learning about the differences between people.
Speaker 2: Well, it was just that they seemed more universal as people.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about current day feminism, How do you
Speaker 1: feel about recent history? Does it give you deja vu
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 2: I don't think so, but I mean what I'm seeing
Speaker 2: is limited. I don't know, but I think in the
Speaker 2: past the ideas of feminism were unusual enough so that
Speaker 2: there were more likely to be groups, you know, whether
Speaker 2: it was the National Women's Political Caucus or now now
Speaker 2: it seems more generalized, so people, women in offices, women
Speaker 2: in factories.
Speaker 1: Has the world developed in a way that you feel
Speaker 1: excited about or are you frustrated about?
Speaker 2: I certainly feel frustrated that we have an asshole in
Speaker 2: the White House, I mean terrible president. We in New
Speaker 2: York who know him are I think ninety six percent
Speaker 2: against Trump.
Speaker 1: It's a big stat I.
Speaker 2: Mean, Nixon and Reagan were not wonderful, but they seemed
Speaker 2: a little bit more representative.
Speaker 1: You say, if you aren't a feminist, it's like only
Speaker 1: having one eye open. You need to have both open
Speaker 1: to solve any problem. What I think is interesting is
Speaker 1: we're probably in the most woke, eye open period ever.
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if you would also say that we're
Speaker 1: a little blind.
Speaker 2: I think we are still in a period in which say,
Speaker 2: women are raising children more than men, and that means
Speaker 2: that women as a generality are probably more aware of
Speaker 2: the world in certain ways then men in general, although
Speaker 2: it's dangerous to make that kind of generalization.
Speaker 1: Do you think about what the fourth wave of feminism
Speaker 1: looks like or feels like?
Speaker 2: Or no, I don't think in waves. How do you
Speaker 2: think we're sitting here with you and I just chatting books, movies,
Speaker 2: political candidates.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I love coming over here is
Speaker 1: my childhood was spent sitting in my grandparents' living room
Speaker 1: talking about nothing for hours.
Speaker 2: What do you mean nothing?
Speaker 1: We would talk about politics and ideas, and well, that's
Speaker 1: not nothing, but we would also talk about absolutely nothing,
Speaker 1: Like we would talk about pizza and the weather, and
Speaker 1: it was just about being together. And I would sometimes
Speaker 1: have breakfast with Larry King and his friends and it
Speaker 1: felt very similar. And I haven't had that feeling until
Speaker 1: I came here and have spent time with you and
Speaker 1: Jill and Amy.
Speaker 2: What do you.
Speaker 1: Get from sitting in your office space because people come
Speaker 1: visit you all the time, you have so many visitors
Speaker 1: and just chatting.
Speaker 2: Well, we usually have some shared enterprise, something that we're
Speaker 2: trying to do or hoping to do, or some political
Speaker 2: campaign or something varies, Yeah, varies.
Speaker 1: How have you felt about the people that come into
Speaker 1: your life and ask you for things?
Speaker 2: I don't think I can generalize. It depends on who
Speaker 2: the person is and what the thing is, and you know,
Speaker 2: because it's an opportunity to help, which is good.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why I'm asking. My favorite quote ever,
Speaker 1: I think is Shirley Chisholm's quote that service is the
Speaker 1: rent you pay for a room on this earth. I
Speaker 1: try to live by it that. Say it again, service
Speaker 1: is the rent you pay for a room on this earth.
Speaker 1: Oh and I really try to live by that. And
Speaker 1: I sometimes feel overwhelmed trying to be of service and
Speaker 1: live my life. I can't even imagine how you feel.
Speaker 2: Also means people are of service to you. It's not
Speaker 2: a one way street.
Speaker 1: So you feel like you've been able to maintain your
Speaker 1: personhood and your space amongst all the requests.
Speaker 2: Always Yeah, I mean, I think I'm lucky to have
Speaker 2: an apartment, for instance, which is very helpful. To have
Speaker 2: a space that you live in that belongs to.
Speaker 1: You right right, and you hide out. I know you
Speaker 1: love your bedroom.
Speaker 2: I've been here for a long time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. What do you think about influencer culture?
Speaker 1: Is it a version of modern organizing?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I mean, if it just means that
Speaker 2: you have an online presence, that's influential, right, Yeah, but
Speaker 2: it makes me nervous that it's measured in terms of
Speaker 2: online contacts.
Speaker 1: That the measure of a right number of followers, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Which doesn't seem like a good measure.
Speaker 1: It does connect people though in a way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what does follower mean? I mean Hitler had
Speaker 2: a lot of followers. Sort of value free, I mean
Speaker 2: it doesn't have content. It also seems like it's constructed
Speaker 2: in order to be saleable. Oh interesting, you know, because
Speaker 2: somebody with a lot of followers that can get some
Speaker 2: commercial good out of it.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember I made you take
Speaker 1: the value bridge test, Susie Welch's value bridge, and it
Speaker 1: had the sixteen values. It's belovedness and luminance, and every
Speaker 1: question it would ask you about money, you would look
Speaker 1: at me and you would sad eye and you say
Speaker 1: money is so boring.
Speaker 2: Right, Money is neutral. It depends what its impact is I.
Speaker 1: Think you meant that and it really made me laugh.
Speaker 1: How would you define your sense of humor?
Speaker 2: Well, I think laughter is a very important part of culture.
Speaker 2: In Native American culture, there is a god of laughter
Speaker 2: who is neither male nor female, but just present. So
Speaker 2: laughter usually, not always, is value free.
Speaker 1: Do you find it to be true through the old
Speaker 1: adage that the best things in life are free?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, you know it's not free
Speaker 2: that I have an apartment.
Speaker 1: That's true, and you love this place. I don't know, right,
Speaker 1: that's true. It is women's history months and we are
Speaker 1: sitting in your living room where you have invited over
Speaker 1: women from almost every corner of the world. They've sat
Speaker 1: in the exact chair I'm sitting in. There are so
Speaker 1: many photos and knickknacks here. Are there any women that
Speaker 1: you haven't had in this space that you would have
Speaker 1: loved to have spoken with?
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm sure there are a lot, And there are
Speaker 2: some I've kind of lost because I lived in India
Speaker 2: and had such deep connection there. But I don't see them,
Speaker 2: and not all of them are still alive. Actually, it's
Speaker 2: kind of happenstance. I mean, we're sailing through life as
Speaker 2: through the ocean, and so who we meet and see
Speaker 2: is unpredictable.
Speaker 1: You made me think about your work as a journalist because,
Speaker 1: as you shared earlier, I asked you if you were
Speaker 1: writing to figure out what your experiences meant, and you
Speaker 1: said no, I was chronicling what actually happened. What keeps
Speaker 1: you so enrolled in.
Speaker 2: Hope because, as we keep saying, hope is a form
Speaker 2: of planning. If you don't have a hope for something,
Speaker 2: it's very unlikely to happen. It may not happen anyway,
Speaker 2: but it's more likely to happen if you have hoped
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 1: That is the most spiritual thing I've ever heard you say.
Speaker 1: How do you feel right now? What is it like
Speaker 1: to be you right now?
Speaker 2: I'm very grateful to have this apartment, though I have
Speaker 2: a safe space, I have friends and longtime associates who
Speaker 2: come and go. I am well aware that I'm not
Speaker 2: going to live forever. I mean, you know you can't
Speaker 2: deny that. Though it's not like I'm conscious of feeling
Speaker 2: I'm about to disappear. I feel lucky, you know, to
Speaker 2: be in a city I love, with friends I love,
Speaker 2: and a life that isn't rich but is kind of
Speaker 2: moderately secure.
Speaker 1: What do I have to look forward to at ninety two?
Speaker 1: Whatever the fuck you want. That's an amazing answer. This
Speaker 1: is sort of a hard question, and if you don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about it, it's okay. I'm curious what
Speaker 1: the most pain you have ever been in that was
Speaker 1: not physical? What was the hardest decade?
Speaker 2: It was probably when I was growing up looking after
Speaker 2: my mother, because being a small person looking after a
Speaker 2: big person is difficult for obvious reasons, and also her
Speaker 2: life was sad as it should not have been, because
Speaker 2: she should have had more of what she wanted in
Speaker 2: life was able to express as a journalist. I think
Speaker 2: that was probably the most difficult part.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because you've actually been through so much
Speaker 1: in your adult life. You've survived breast cancer, you had
Speaker 1: several loves of your life pass away, you have dealt
Speaker 1: with tons of people heckling you and saying untruths, and
Speaker 1: still that remains to be the toughest time.
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's no inequality like childhood to adult inequality,
Speaker 2: because you may be disempowered in almost every way.
Speaker 1: Do you think you ever recovered from it?
Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly have recovered in the sense of
Speaker 2: living a life I wanted to live. In retrospect, I
Speaker 2: probably didn't want to be again responsible for someone else's
Speaker 2: life by having children.
Speaker 1: But you were okay being responsible for yours.
Speaker 2: That you feel okay?
Speaker 1: You say, the primary thing is not that others know
Speaker 1: who you are, but who they are. Again, just to
Speaker 1: bring it back to the very beginning, that is such
Speaker 1: an obvious truth that I would have never thought.
Speaker 2: But who they are. I don't know that I know
Speaker 2: what I meant by that. Let just say it again.
Speaker 1: So I think it was in the context of little
Speaker 1: girls coming up to you or other women coming up
Speaker 1: to you. Oh, I see, And you said, it's not
Speaker 1: important that they know who I am, it's important that
Speaker 1: they know they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, I see right.
Speaker 1: You know, in a world where we're constantly being sold
Speaker 1: our own identity back to us through algorithms and aesthetics,
Speaker 1: what do you think is the biggest obstacle to a
Speaker 1: woman truly knowing who she is today?
Speaker 2: Well, it's probably the tyranny of expectations of the people
Speaker 2: around her. If they're expecting her to be someone different
Speaker 2: from who she really is.
Speaker 1: It's very hard as a woman to not live into
Speaker 1: those expectations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're trying to live authentically and trying
Speaker 2: to get beyond that.
Speaker 1: Do you remember having inner turmoil about that, Like you
Speaker 1: so vehemently did not want to be married with children,
Speaker 1: and yet the world was telling you.
Speaker 2: Well no, I mean I kept assuming I had to,
Speaker 2: and I just kept putting it off.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it was more avoidance. Yeah, you said, I
Speaker 1: hope to live to one hundred. I've so loved being here.
Speaker 1: I never wanted to end. What is it that you
Speaker 1: would be most sad to leave Gloria?
Speaker 2: Waking up in the morning and contemplating a day and
Speaker 2: seeing you, seeing friends walking out in the street, just
Speaker 2: the daily things of life. Nothing big. I don't think.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because I know you love to travel so much,
Speaker 1: so it's the minutia of life.
Speaker 2: There's a time when I did travel and live in
Speaker 2: India and live in Europe and all of that. But
Speaker 2: I think that's more of time of exploring.
Speaker 1: That Thursday I have for exploration will be quenched one day.
Speaker 1: I'll want to be at home.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now I'm at home. I'm not traveling. I don't
Speaker 2: think I'm motivated to get on a plane. Yeah, at
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 1: Is there any thing that you recognize in yourself today
Speaker 1: that you didn't when you were younger?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there is. I'm sure when I was younger,
Speaker 2: I thought that I would get married or have to
Speaker 2: get married and have children because everybody else did. I
Speaker 2: mean I was just looking around me. Yeah, and it
Speaker 2: took me a while to understand. You know, people can
Speaker 2: live in different ways.
Speaker 1: Do you feel when you wake up at ninety two
Speaker 1: like the same girl that you were at twenty two?
Speaker 2: I don't think about it that way, but probably basically
Speaker 2: I am Okay.
Speaker 1: You said you want your funeral to be a feminist benefit.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that about you.
Speaker 2: Gloria. Well, we need benefits, you know, so why not?
Speaker 1: When did you come up with that?
Speaker 2: I think when Bella have sick died, what do you envision? Well,
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, and that should be up to whoever
Speaker 2: is here or not to me.
Speaker 1: So it'll be up to Amy.
Speaker 2: Right. But a meeting that is unconfined by religion, that
Speaker 2: everybody is welcome at and anybody who wants to speak
Speaker 2: or not speak is able to do that, and that
Speaker 2: people meet each other.
Speaker 1: I love hearing that because your friend Jill told me
Speaker 1: one time that experiencing a Gloria Steinham birthday party is
Speaker 1: one of the best things in the world because you
Speaker 1: have friends who are heads of state and famous actors
Speaker 1: and your favorite barista from down the street, and everybody
Speaker 1: is in one room. I imagine it being exactly like that.
Speaker 1: So your home is as much a part of your
Speaker 1: legacy as you are. In what way do you think
Speaker 1: you will have an open door policy even after you're gone.
Speaker 2: I own three floors, but there are two floors I
Speaker 2: don't own four or five that are independent individual women
Speaker 2: on them. If I can afford it somehow, I would
Speaker 2: like to own the whole house so I can leave
Speaker 2: it as a meeting place for women to have a
Speaker 2: place to stay, to have meetings, to you know, whatever
Speaker 2: it is. I saw in London a house like this,
Speaker 2: a brownstone that had a plaque on the outside left
Speaker 2: over from the suffrage era that I think was serving
Speaker 2: in that way. So I would still like to do that,
Speaker 2: and that would require that I am able to buy
Speaker 2: the top two floors.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I know that's the goal. You're so okay with
Speaker 1: me asking about your funeral and death and when I'm
Speaker 1: downstairs with you, I ask you about affairs and dating
Speaker 1: and taboo topics that people don't ever want approach.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, is that true? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you when I interview people, they
Speaker 1: really don't want to talk about death.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean we're all talking about it in a
Speaker 2: kind of generalized way.
Speaker 1: Obviously, Why do you think you're okay talking about everything?
Speaker 1: There's nothing that scares you.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are things that scare me, but we're
Speaker 2: sitting here safely in a living room talking about you know,
Speaker 2: so why not?
Speaker 1: Besides Donald Trump? Nothing scares you? Right? So I am
Speaker 1: thirty five years old. If you could give me one
Speaker 1: piece of advice, what would it be.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess do what you love to do, at
Speaker 2: least as much and hopefully more than what you have
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. And what is your hope for little
Speaker 1: girls who are born in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: That they can live in a world where it's safe
Speaker 2: to be a female human being of whatever color we are,
Speaker 2: and where it's possible and practical to imagine being whatever
Speaker 2: you want to be, A president, a dancer, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever it is that you feel you want.
Speaker 1: Did you ever feel like you had limitations set or
Speaker 1: have you lived into all of the dreams that you had?
Speaker 2: No, I mean I had limitations, but they kept sort
Speaker 2: of moving off into the middle distance. You know, I
Speaker 2: didn't actually have to get married and have children. I
Speaker 2: didn't have to stay at home instead of living in
Speaker 2: India or you know, I mean, they just kept moving off.
Speaker 1: Gloria, this has been my favorite interview of all time.
Speaker 2: Thank you for this, No, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
Speaker 1: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.