1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Hello. My name is Rob Schneider, and I am proud 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: to be able to stand with you and say that 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: we can no longer be afraid to live in fear 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: of the powerful pharmaceutical companies. It's October an actor and 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live Along. Rob Schneider is performing at a 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: virtual conference. He starts a set with a paper Whole 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Foods bag over his head with a little eyes and 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: a mouth cut out. The joke, I think is that 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: he is shielding his identity from people who might find 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: what he is saying controversial. As long as we stand 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: together and be brave and courageous and stand up for 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: liberty and insists on body integrity, there's nothing big Pharma 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: can really do to us. He takes the bag off 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: his head. At this point, as we've seen the last 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: six months, our government is known is not only capable 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: of taking away our liberties, they seem actually kind of 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: excited about it. He's sitting in what looks like a 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: messy office wearing a blue dress shirt and tie. He 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: pokes fun at lockdowns and social distancing and masks, and 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: even jokes that COVID isn't really a serious disease. And 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: then he moves on to COVID vaccines, and if you're 22 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: worried about the side effects, don't. This new vaccine will 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: be thoroughly tested to the same vigorous standards as all 24 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: other vaccines. No fewer than twelve people will be tested 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,919 Speaker 1: for the vaccine that will be given to a billion people. 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: Other speakers at the conference include Sherry Tenpenny, an osteopathic 27 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: physician known for her expensive anti vaccine boot camps. There's 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: also wellness guru Dr Joseph mccola and former Minnesota State 29 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: Senator Dr Scott Jensen. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Spoke just 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: before Schneider, and Andrew Wakefield will give a speech tomorrow. 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: You've heard some of these names before in this series. 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Some of them are new, but what they all have 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: in common is that they are prominent or up and 34 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: coming members of the anti vaccine establishment. This conference is 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: a who's who of the biggest names in the anti 36 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: vax world. The conference was put on by the National 37 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: Vaccine Information Center. That's a group that has been questioning 38 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: vaccine safety since the theme of this year's conference is 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: protecting autonomy and healthcare, but not everyone sticks to that. 40 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: Some speeches focus on rights and liberty amid the pandemic. 41 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: Others preached alternative health practices or the ulterior motives of 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: big pharma. Sometimes the messages even kind of conflict with 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: each other. If you watch the conference, one thing becomes 44 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: absolutely clear. Speaker after speaker hits on the same point. 45 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: The pandemic is an opportunity to grow the moon space 46 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: and they are not going to waste it. We need 47 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: all hands on desk. We need everybody to release their 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: fear from their brains, get rid of their mask, so 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: hug people and absolutely say no. We're seeing an inflection 50 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: of events is bringing our issue to the forefront of 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: Vaccines today are talked about every day, and we've seen 52 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: this now. The population who are aware of these issues 53 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: has grown dramatically in the face of coronavirus COVID nineteen. 54 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: All of the truths that we've been trying to broadcast 55 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: for many, many years, Um, there are people hearing it 56 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: and the impact and those seeds are landing on very 57 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: fertile ground. That last voice belongs to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 58 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: Kennedy is the founder of the Children's Health Events, a 59 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: group that pumps out a whole lot of vaccine misinformation. 60 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: It is one of the most high profile anti vaccine groups. 61 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: Kennedy and just talk with a battle cry, and let's 62 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: go to war and protect these children. Thank you very much. 63 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: Let's go to war. If the pandemic is a battlefield. 64 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: The anti vax ER's are on the march, and they 65 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: have been gaining ground. They've been winning the hearts and 66 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: minds of the people in the middle, those who mostly 67 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: trust vaccines but maybe have some misgivings or questions about 68 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: the COVID nineteen shots. People are scared right now and 69 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: they're looking for answers, and this has given the anti 70 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: vaccine movement the chance to reach a bigger audience than 71 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: ever before. In this episode, we're going to look at 72 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: how this movement gets their message out and why people 73 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: believe it if they're waging a war. This is a 74 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: look at the battle plan. I'm Bloomberg News health reporter 75 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: Kristin B. Brown from the Prognosis podcast This is Doubt. 76 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was the nephew of JFK. His 77 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: dad was former Senator and U S. Attorney General Bobby Kennedy. 78 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: Both his dad and uncle were assassinated when he was 79 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: a kid. Kennedy is a lawyer, and until more recently, 80 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: he was best known for a long and impressive legacy 81 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: of environmental work. Over the past few years, Kennedy has 82 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: increasingly turned his attention to vaccines. This is a little 83 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: ironic since his uncle JFK played a big role in 84 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: making vaccines routine in modern society. In ninety two, JFK 85 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: passed the Vaccine Assistance Act, which was really the first 86 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: national immunization program in the US, giving states federal money 87 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: to help make vaccines more accessible. These days, Kennedy is 88 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: working in opposition to his uncle's legacy. Where JFK wanted 89 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: to give people more access to vaccines, Kennedy spends a 90 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: lot of his time discouraging people from getting them. Kennedy 91 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: says the movement was still pretty fringe when he got involved. 92 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: In the mid two thousands. He was advocating against mercury 93 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: polluting rivers and contaminating fish. He says moms would approach 94 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: after talks he gave worried about the mercury in vaccines. 95 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: Back in episode two, we talked about those mercury concerns. 96 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: There is a type of mercury used as a preservative 97 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: in some vaccines, but this mercury is cleared quickly by 98 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: the human body. It is not the same as the 99 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: stuff that was contaminating fish in rivers. But you could 100 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: see why this might cause some people to panic. So 101 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,239 Speaker 1: Kennedy started looking into it because they kept hearing more 102 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: and more of these stories from moms. The movement at 103 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 1: that time, it was so tiny, really, just the people 104 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: who had been injured by vaccines. I had it actually injuries, 105 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: that's really I was I would say probably n the 106 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: mo time, and it was having almost it was having 107 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: a zero impact on vacccine rates, on vaccine coverage. He 108 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: says the movement grew gradually, people came to it as 109 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: the vaccine schedule expanded, and then later when states tightened 110 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: childhood vaccination laws. But Kennedy says this year has been different. 111 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's undeniable that the explosive expansion of our 112 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: movement place after the pandemic. If you've been fighting against 113 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: vaccines for years, then a pandemic is a great opportunity 114 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: for your cause. Just think about it. The pandemic hit 115 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: in March. It's a new disease there is no vaccine. 116 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: It spreads rapidly, the world shuts down. By May, former 117 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump announces Operation Warp Speed. It's a public 118 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: private partnership meant to fast track vaccine development. And here's 119 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: where the window for the anti vaccine groups opens. Trump 120 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: keeps promising a vaccine by election day in November. The media, 121 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: who is often skeptical of Trump to begin with, starts 122 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: pointing out potential problems with that headline, the main one 123 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: being that vaccines typically take years to develop. I have 124 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: no idea how somebody is proposing a shortening of the length. 125 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: It's length of time it's going to take to test 126 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: this whatever new vaccine there is out there for both 127 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: effectiveness and safety. I'm concerned about the safety and the efficacy. 128 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: These are the two criteria that are a crucial in 129 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: a vaccine. Vaccine advocates and scientists appear on the news 130 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,239 Speaker 1: and say they're worried steps in development are being skipped. 131 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: In other words, they're putting this idea in people's heads 132 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: that this vaccine is rushed and potentially unsafe safe, which 133 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: is okay. Bear development time on these new vaccines was unprecedented, 134 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: But this all plays right into an argument that anti 135 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: vaccine movement was already making For years. This movement has 136 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: argued that safety issues with vaccines are too often ignored 137 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: by manufacturers and government regulators were all in cahoots together, 138 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: and here was the press and scientists pointing to what 139 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: seemed like an example of this. This messaging had a 140 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: real effect on people. For example, when vice presidential candidate 141 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris said during her debate, if the doctors tell 142 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: us that we should take it, I'll be the first 143 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: in line to take it absolutely. But if Donald Trump 144 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: tells us I should take that we should take it, 145 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm not taking it. Support for vaccines among Democrats dropped. 146 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: Vaccines just became highly politicized at different points, People on 147 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: both sides of the aisle were basically working in favor 148 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,599 Speaker 1: of the anti vaccine movement, spreading messages of uncertainty, malfeasance, 149 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: and fear. At a low point last September, in the 150 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: run up to the election, about half of Americans said 151 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: they wouldn't get vaccinated against COVID. This gave groups like 152 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: Kennedy's a broader audience, and they took advantage of it. 153 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: A report by the Center for Countering Digital Hate or 154 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: c c d H says that roughly a hundred and 155 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: fifty leading anti vax accounts gained more than ten million 156 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: social media followers between and December, especially on Instagram and YouTube. 157 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: Those and other channels have taken some steps to curb misinformation, 158 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: including removing some of the movement's biggest names. Kennedy was 159 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: kicked off Instagram in February, but this hasn't really stopped 160 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: the broader community of vaccine skeptics from growing. Kennedy calls 161 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: this censorship in a statement after he was kicked off Instagram. 162 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: He writes, quote face book, the pharmaceutical industry and its 163 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: captive regulators used the term vaccine misinformation as a euphemism 164 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: for any factual assertion that departs from official pronouncements about 165 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: vaccine health and safety, whether true or not. End quote. 166 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: The c c d recently found that since December, while 167 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: the removal of celebrity anti vactors like Kennedy has caused 168 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: the movement to lose millions of followers, the growth of 169 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: the rest of the network has almost entirely made up 170 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: for that loss. They're just so many more groups of 171 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: people whose ideas now align with anti vaccine agenda, alternative 172 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: health purveyors, and Q and on conspiracy theories have joined in. 173 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: As of more and more people concerned about government overreach, 174 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: the states have implemented mask mandates and lockdowns. Kennedy says 175 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: bringing in these other interests has really helped the movement. 176 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: He doesn't use the term anti vaccine. He talks about 177 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: vaccine orthodoxy instead. I think people are saying confluences and 178 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: connections with other issues with government coersion. I'm with the 179 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: erosion of our constitutional rights and of our civil rights 180 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: who have come into the movement and people who are 181 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: concerned with other forms of government coerce. I think people 182 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:33,599 Speaker 1: are feel like there's something happening that um, there's there 183 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: are strings being pulled by invisible hands. It turns out 184 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: so they're sort of our invisible hands pulling the strings, 185 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: but those hands belonged to anti vaccine groups. The c 186 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: C d H says these groups have organized themselves around 187 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: a master COVID narrative. It's focused on three key messages. 188 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: COVID is not dangerous, the vaccine is dangerous, and vaccine 189 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: advocates cannot be trusted. It's a playbook for sewing doubt 190 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: and it has been used to great effect during the pandemic. 191 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: We've talked before about how times of uncertainty become fertile 192 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: ground for rumor and misinformation. Well, sometimes the public health 193 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: community couldn't provide us with all the answers when we 194 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: wanted them. They had to take time to study things 195 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: like masks and how far we distanced from one another. 196 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: They sometimes messed up the messaging and created more uncertainty 197 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: and confusion. And they can't say any vaccine is a 198 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: percent safe and effective. Science is just an inherently uncertain thing, 199 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: especially when you're dealing with a brand new virus. In science, 200 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: there are always going to be gray areas you can't 201 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: combat yours. People have about COVID vaccines being unsafe or 202 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: understudied by just saying, look, don't worry, these things are 203 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: a percent safe. But anti vaccine groups have the luxury 204 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: of dealing in black and white. COVID is not dangerous, 205 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: the vaccine is dangerous. Vaccine advocates cannot be trusted, simple right, 206 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I always say, you try and disprove to 207 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: me that Bill Gates is a lizard, and there is 208 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: a conspiracy of lizards to cover up the fact that 209 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: he's a lizard. And it's impossible because these are non 210 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: falsifiable hypotheses in the jargon, but they're basically designed to 211 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: be difficult, if not impossible, to disprove. This is Imran Ahmed, 212 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: the head of the c c d H. He refers 213 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: to anti vaccine groups as a really sophisticated industry. They 214 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: excel pushing ideas out there that are scary and hard 215 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: to disprove, but of course they also need to back 216 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: up their claims with something that looks like a convincing argument. 217 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: Unlike scientists, anti vaccine groups are perfectly willing to draw 218 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: conclusions where there aren't any yet. They create spaces online 219 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: in places like Facebook groups and Instagram stories that seem 220 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: to have every answer to your concerns. They make their 221 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: arguments seem scientific by using lots of hard to part terminology, 222 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: and then they offer training and education through social media 223 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: tools designed to convert the merely skeptical into active anti 224 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: vaxxer's spreading the message. One activist, for example, urged followers 225 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: to approach new people with easy to verify facts about vaccines, 226 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: like how many vaccines kids get before getting into the 227 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: more controversial stuff. The key one training module in a 228 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: popular anti vaxx group said, it's a plant that first 229 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: seed of doubt. Another activists wrote, quote, once we have 230 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: established some doubt about vaccines, we can move on end quote. 231 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: Groups even offer advice on how to not waste time 232 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: on people who are unpersuadable, how to spread the vaccine 233 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: debate into new groups of people, and how to end 234 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: arguments with pro vaccine people. They produced vast amounts of 235 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: content that's optimized for sharing and to do well on 236 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: the algorithms for social media platforms, and that's been key 237 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: to their success, of their ability to weaponize the algorithms 238 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: um and make the understand the dynamics, the specific dynamics 239 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: of algorithms that only care about one thing. Engagement, not factualness, 240 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: not public good, just engagement. We've said up for but 241 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: it is worth repeating. This is not an organic rag 242 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: tag group of concerned citizens. It is a coordinated and 243 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: sophisticated campaign. It's pr their message is getting through. It's 244 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: the majority of people, and we we we shouldn't blame 245 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: the side of science for being overwhelmed by a very 246 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: well resourced industry of bad folks. Um. I do think 247 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: that we've been naivea societies in not understanding that there 248 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: is an organized opposition. This messaging feels especially relevant in 249 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: a climate where most people agree the government has bungled 250 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: many aspects of pandemic response. There are lots of good 251 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: reasons why these vaccines were able to be developed so quickly. 252 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: Scientists from around the world worked together with government support, 253 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: and technology was already in development for similar vaccines. But 254 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: that's a more complicated explanation than the one anti vaccine 255 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: groups are pushing. The anti vaxxers argue that politics and 256 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: profit are being put first, and that leading vaccine advocates 257 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: have hidden agendas. For example, billionaire Microsoft founder Bill Gates 258 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: has become a memified symbol of all this billionaire creator 259 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: of Microsoft, of person with a kind of face of 260 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: an eternal student with glasses. But what if Bill Gates 261 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: is actually not as simple as it seems, and now 262 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: that we are presented with the very problem that Gates 263 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: has been talking about for years, we will soon find 264 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: that this software developer with no medical training is going 265 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: to leverage that wealth into control over the fates of 266 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: billions of people. In anti vaxx propaganda. You'll even see 267 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: his names sometimes attached to things he has nothing to 268 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: do with. And okay, some of the Bill Gates conspiracies 269 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: are pretty easy to roll your eyes at, like that 270 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: he's trying to sterilize the world through vaccines and control 271 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: the global population. This was literally the plot of a 272 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: TV series darring John Cusack last year. But for the 273 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: average person, a lot of misinformation isn't so easily debunked. 274 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: Organizations like Kennedy's are savvy. Often, the Children's Health Defense 275 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: will cite accurate information from news organizations or government agencies, 276 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: but cherry pick and arrange those facts so that they 277 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: promote a false narrative. This is really clever because it 278 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: means that if you try to casually fact check those ideas, 279 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: it might appear to confirm the misinformation with legitimate sources. 280 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: For example, they claim to participate in the trial for 281 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: the Maderna vaccine had become really sick after being vaccinated, 282 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: but they failed to mention he quickly recovered and has 283 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 1: actually become a vocal advocate for the vaccine. There assembling 284 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: devastating information warfare from conventional ideas news articles, but when 285 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: put together in the right way they can be. They 286 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: can be incredibly persuasive and making people do harm for themselves, 287 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: which is what what not taking a vaccine is. And 288 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: then we live a pandemic. Okay, so this group of 289 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: people spreading vaccine misinformation is organized, well funded, and aided 290 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: by a global pandemic and finding an audience. But that 291 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: doesn't fully explain how it ends up convincing our relatives 292 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: or friends to not get vaccinated. It's not like people 293 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: just google anti vaccine content. Please. The way it ends 294 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: up in front of our mom or our dad is 295 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: more carefully choreographed than that. And how this happens is 296 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: no accident. So we believe that a lot of it 297 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: starts and WhatsApp or tell gram or this type of 298 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: messaging services, and it's only then from those services it 299 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: is being pushed to Twitter, Facebook and other social media 300 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: or the digital media. This is Simon pon Tech. He 301 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: monitors social media to see how misinformation spreads as part 302 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: of the Vaccine Confidence Project. In the first episode of Doubt, 303 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: we heard from Heidi Larson, the head of the organization. 304 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: Simon is the guy on the ground. My background is 305 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: in the study of misinformation, information, politics, and trying to 306 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: understands pushing what narratives, why they might want to push 307 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: these narratives. Simon says, misinformation often starts with private messaging 308 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: services and then is unwittingly shared by people who aren't 309 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: necessarily part of the orchestrated campaign. When we say misinformation 310 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: here we're talking about conspiracy theories like Bill Gates trying 311 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: to use vaccines to sterilize people, or vaccines altering your DNA. 312 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: This is stuff intended to cause confusion. One hiccup for 313 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: Simon because that he knows where these messages first gained traction, 314 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: but it's hard to figure out their exact origins or 315 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: who's crafting them. So it's basically sometimes we just get 316 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: a new narratives that's just come out of the blue, 317 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: and they just suddenly become really popular. And so, for example, 318 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: more recently, we were seeing that someone is pushing in 319 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: narative about COVID ending the civilization. The Vaccine Confidence Project 320 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: is working to set up experimental listening tools to try 321 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: and understand how misinformation travels between private and public social networks. 322 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,239 Speaker 1: The hope is to set up what is essentially an 323 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: early warning system to limit the spread, stopping misinformation before 324 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: it has a chance to go viral. Like Kennedy, Simon 325 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: points out that all kinds of groups are now jumping 326 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: into the vaccine fight. For example, um, these would be 327 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: people who believe in natural medicine, so they usually motivated 328 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: by very strong belief that vaccines are not natural. And 329 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: it's not just vaccines that they don't trust. It's GMO 330 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: and and and any other modern technologies, and they very 331 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: strongly believe that is it's a kind of not natural 332 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: thing and we should avoid it as much as possible. 333 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: When these groups rebrand anti vaccine information, it can become 334 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: part of their platform. If you're a politician and your 335 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: basis suddenly saying vaccination is an assault on their freedoms, 336 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: well then it's likely you're going to start pushing that 337 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: idea too, in order to stay in your voters good graces. 338 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: It's now not just healthy issue. It is a very 339 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: political issue. So we we kind of going out of 340 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: this space where you would only have you know, two 341 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: or three players. Now it's more complex, and obviously people 342 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 1: trying to make money on it, but then people who 343 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: are trying to gain political capital here as well. There 344 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: are lots of different reasons why people would want to 345 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: put misinformation out there. It can be used to score 346 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: political points or sell things like vaccine information classes or 347 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: bogus COVID treatments. Often it has little to do with 348 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: actual concern about vaccines. Sometimes people weaponize misinformation simply in 349 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: order to cause division. Genuinely, they're trying to polarize populations. 350 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: So there is no common ground, there's no shared values, 351 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: and people are unable to come to any sort of agreement, 352 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: and that is a big problem. Simon says that misinformation 353 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: campaigns are nothing new, but there's a reason why your 354 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: friend or family member suddenly spouting conspiracy the areas when 355 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: that was something they were never in due before. A 356 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: lot of people are asking questions about the moment we're 357 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: living in, and anti vaxers are just better at giving 358 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: them answers. Are we're doing a terrible job with engaging 359 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: with hesitant audiences. We we just, like, I think, the 360 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: minute that people express any doubt, we just put them 361 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: into this bucket. All right, you must be anti vactor 362 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: and and that is kind of like a stigma and 363 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: people hate it. We need to say, hey, right, it's fine, 364 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 1: it's fine. You have some doubts like I'll help you 365 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: exactly the same way the antivactors are doing. That's what 366 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: they're doing. Come here to join us. Will will explain 367 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: this all to you. You will get a full understanding. 368 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: I don't think we're doing that. I think what we're 369 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: doing is not good enough, and that that's that's that's 370 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: the essence of the problem. Kennedy agrees. He says the 371 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: real reason people are coming to him for answers is 372 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: that they feel their concerns just are being addressed anywhere else. 373 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: You know, just an extent, anybody who asked me about 374 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: vaccines has already about what aga of vaccines is already 375 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: kind of laws, some faith in you know, the traditional 376 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: structure of um. You should trust your doctor, or you 377 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: should trust A D S D. You should trust F 378 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: D A and and you should not think for yourself. 379 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: This is the thing that really gets to me. There 380 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: is an opportunity to address the concerns of the people 381 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: in the middle, But the camp that is doing it 382 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: best is the anti vaxers. Anti vaccine misinformation campaigns are 383 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: definitely sophisticated, and social media has enabled them to reach 384 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: a lot of people in a highly targeted, effective and 385 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: inexpensive way. But people who believe all of this misinformation, 386 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: they're more open to it because they're not getting what 387 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: they need from other sources. For people like Kennedy, that 388 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: makes it a lot easier to win them over. So 389 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: now that we've covered how this misinformation gets out there, 390 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss why people believe it. Matt Moda 391 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: is a professor at Oklahoma State University who studies this 392 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: exact thing. He says, there are two types of people 393 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: who come to believe misinformation. The first group are people 394 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: who have basically already decided misinformation is true. They are 395 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: instead rationalizing their first arriving at the conclusion at which 396 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: they want to arrive, and then finding evidence that backs 397 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: it up. But that's thankfully a relatively small group of people. However, 398 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: they have a big public reach in heart because of 399 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,479 Speaker 1: social media. And then there's a second group, and that 400 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: one is way bigger. These people come across misinformation, often 401 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: by chance and often because of that first group is 402 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: spreading it. And so, you know, the key thing that 403 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: we have to remember here is that because the people 404 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: who create and share misinformation are rationalizing because they're very 405 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: motivated to believe a particular thing. They'll often use the 406 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: language the imagery, etcetera of science. They will draw on 407 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: scientific studies, they will refer to people who are experts 408 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: in a particular field, who might have a doctor prefix 409 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: or a PhD suffix with their name in order to 410 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: build their case. And to those of us who might 411 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: not follow these issues very closely. Being exposed that misinformation 412 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: may be somewhat compelling, in part because it seems on 413 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: some level scientific. Matt says that a lot of people 414 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: in the second group might be motivated to believe it 415 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: for similar reasons to the people who create it. For example, 416 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: they might also be suspicious of the government or health 417 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: authorities and therefore more willing to buy in. But that's 418 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: not always the case. Some people will fall prey to 419 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: misinformation just by being exposed to it. This is perhaps 420 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: especially true over the past year. In a pandemic where 421 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: so much is unknown, people may be willing to latch 422 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: onto conspiracy theories and misinformation in order to fill that 423 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: information void, in order to be able to believe something 424 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: that just kind of puts the matter to rest, irrespective 425 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: of its veracity. Once someone believes a conspiracy theory. It's 426 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: hard to shake them out of it. Matt says, just 427 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: throwing a bunch of facts at them probably won't work. Okay, 428 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: If say there's a rampant conspiracy theory circulating on the 429 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,479 Speaker 1: Internet and a bunch of news organizations published fact checks 430 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: on that conspiracy, you probably won't change the minds of 431 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: most believers, and you also risk exposing more people to 432 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: the misinformation. I've thought about this a lot while making 433 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: this podcast. Talking about misinformation runs the risk of exposing 434 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: people to it, but it's also important to talk about 435 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: all of this in order to address it. That's why 436 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: Matt says one way to fight misinformation is to make 437 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: it harder to find. Social media platforms have taken steps 438 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: to this effect during the pandemic. They've kicked people like 439 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: Kennedy and del Brigtree off of their platform. If you 440 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: make it harder for misinformation to spread, especially on mainstream platforms, 441 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: fewer people will see it. I should know here that 442 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: Facebook and Google both did not respond to interview requests 443 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: for this podcast. Both companies have continued to get a 444 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: lot of flak for how they're handling misinformation. Facebook, for example, 445 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: kicked Kennedy off Instagram, which owns but didn't remove him 446 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: from Facebook itself, and they didn't remove his organization from 447 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: either platform, making it easy for his ideas to still 448 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: spread On Facebook. Kennedy just directs people to his organization's website. 449 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: But booting people off your platform doesn't solve the whole problem. 450 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: It just limits the spread. Anti vaccine activists have already 451 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: moved on to newer platforms where anyone can easily find 452 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: their content, and it doesn't change the fact that people 453 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: will still encounter misinformation through friends and family members post 454 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: things on mainstream sites or texted to them. There was 455 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: rampant rumormongering before Facebook, and that is probably never going 456 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: to change. A much better way to reach people is 457 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: not to fact check or to debunk, but instead to 458 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: meet them where they are. What Matt means by this 459 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: is we have to figure out why people believe vaccine 460 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: misinformation and then address their specific point of view rather 461 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: than just apply them with facts. And to give you 462 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: an example of this with the MMR vaccine, we know 463 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: that people, based on our research, who are high in 464 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: what we call moral purity, the types of people who 465 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: view their body as a temple, who strongly value bodily 466 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: sanctity who don't want to put something foreign into their body. 467 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: These people tend to be more likely to not want 468 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: to vaccinate their children against MMR. And you know what 469 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: we do to try to reach those people is to say, look, 470 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: we totally get it. A vaccine is quite literally putting 471 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: a foreign substance into your body, and we understand why 472 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: that might be discomforting. But you know what else is 473 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: a foreign agent entering your body and doing harm to 474 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: your children. Measles, moms and rubella. Those are diseases that 475 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: we can prevent with the vaccine. This means that there 476 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: actually is something we can do about vaccine hesitancy. We 477 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: need to change how we think about people who have 478 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: these hesitations and how we talk to them. There is 479 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: no silver bullet, there's no one size fits all approach, 480 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: because there's no one size fits all reason why people 481 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: accept vaccine hesitant views. I write about this kind of 482 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: stuff a lot, but it can be hard to understand 483 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: how people really wind up here in a place where 484 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: they wonder whether Bill Gates is trying to track them, 485 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: or whether the government is secretly putting out a vaccine 486 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: that isn't actually safe I didn't really start to get 487 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: any of this until I'm at Deborah. In mid December, 488 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: I got an email with a subject that read, are 489 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: there tracking chips in COVID nineteen vaccines? So this is 490 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: a well worn COVID conspiracy theory, the justice that Bill 491 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: Gates conspired to put microchips into coronavirus vaccines in order 492 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: to track who gets one. There are a bunch of 493 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: videos floating around out there suggesting this. They all do 494 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: something we've seen elsewhere in the anti vaccine playbook. Videos 495 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: will mash up news footage and commentary from Bill and 496 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: Melinda Gates in a selective and suggestive way. This reader 497 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: had obviously seen one of them. What struck me about 498 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: the email, though, was how earnest it aimed. I run 499 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: a weekly COVID Q and A at Bloomberg. We're readers 500 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: right in with their questions about the pandemic, and I 501 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: tracked down experts to answer them. The author of this 502 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: email was a woman named Deborah Shuffler. It seemed like 503 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: she was genuinely confused and looking for answers. I wrote 504 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: back immediately and told her it was not true. There 505 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: are definitely not tracking chips. In any COVID vaccines, And 506 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: then I asked if I could call her up? Hi? 507 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: Can you hear me? Hi? Kristin, how are you doing today? Good? 508 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: How are you doing? Debora is fifty. She lives in 509 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: Newberry Park, California, a little town about forty minutes from 510 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,359 Speaker 1: l A. Debra's two kids are grown. She lives with 511 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,479 Speaker 1: two cats, a dog, and an iguana named Dino. Debra says, 512 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: the iguana is king of the condo. Let's put it 513 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: this way. The pecking order is iguana and then the 514 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: mail cat. Everybody respect those two mail cat respects like 515 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: Guanna and then everybody else fleas, I mean not with fleas, 516 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: but they run away when the iguanas around, they're kind 517 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: of like, ah yeah. Since the pandemic started, Deborra has 518 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: been extremely cautious. She's older and has some health issues, 519 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: so she feels like she just can't be too careful. 520 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: She doesn't order to take out or even see your 521 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: kids that often. If someone has to come into her 522 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: home to do her pairs or something like that, she 523 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: makes them take off their shoes just in case. And 524 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: she gathers all the information she can about COVID. She 525 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: keeps a running list of it in a word duck 526 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: that is a hundred and seventy three pages long and counting. 527 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: She admits she's a little obsessed. I'm just afraid of it. 528 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: I'm just afraid of it. It's terrifying. Information is power, Yeah, 529 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: it's it's a fear of the unknown. Is is pretty frightening, 530 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: and when you have the information on how to counter it, 531 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: then you know what to do. So for the past year, 532 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: every day, Deborah has collected information about COVID. She reads 533 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: mainstream news sites like Bloomberg and The New York Times. 534 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: She gets newsletters from a bunch of places like Joseph Marcola, 535 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: one of the doctors that presented at the anti vaccine 536 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,800 Speaker 1: conference we mentioned earlier, and the National Vaccine Information Center. 537 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: That's the group that hosted the anti vaccine conference, but 538 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: Debora told me she thought their names sounded official. She 539 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: didn't realize the group was generally against vaccines. Debora says 540 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: she does this to feel like she's doing something to 541 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: protect herself. Sometimes she could sniff out bad information when 542 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: she came across it, like the rumor that COVID is 543 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: really caused by five get Internet that seems fake, but 544 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: sometimes she would find herself unsure, which is how she 545 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: wound up sending that email to me. Early on there 546 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: was talk about huh, and I guess you would call 547 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: it conspiracy theory, but there was talk about Bill Gates 548 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: and inserting a tracking chip in the actual vaccines, and 549 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: I I did a double take on that one, thinking Wow. 550 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: I was curious to talk with Debrah because the Bill 551 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 1: Gates conspiracy seemed pretty obviously fake to me. I wanted 552 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: to understand what made it seem plausible to her. Devor 553 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: says the YouTube video she first saw about this let 554 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: her think about the movie Divergent. That's a dystopian sci 555 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 1: fi film series from I call it Divergent. You can't 556 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: let them find out about you. They're always watching and 557 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: the first Divergent in the series, they had an injection 558 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: that made people like robots and they could control them. 559 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: You know, you watch movies and things and then you 560 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: apply it to life. I wouldn't want to track your 561 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: chip put in me. And maybe it's an irrational fear 562 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: from her movie, but I just don't think that anyone 563 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: should have the right to track us. But the movie 564 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: was just what god her thinking about it. Then she 565 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: did some research. I saw a picture of the world's 566 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: tiniest microchip, and it was the size of a grain 567 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: of salt. They actually took a picture of it with salt. 568 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 1: If it was possible to have one that's small, that 569 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: means that injecting it would not be so far fetched. 570 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: It's actually smaller than the microchip that you would put 571 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: in a cat. Debora didn't believe it was necessarily true, 572 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: but once she saw how tiny microchips can be, the 573 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory seemed at least possible to her. I should 574 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: say here that tens of thousands of people shared this 575 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: video on Facebook. Local news broadcasts also covered the fears, 576 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: and when Debora mentioned this, it occurred to me that 577 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: my cats are micro chipped, and I actually have an 578 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 1: r F I D chip implanted in my own hand 579 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: that I got while reporting on body hackers. That's another story, though, 580 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: but the point is, it's not like the idea of 581 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: putting microchips into living things is that outlandish anyway. Debor 582 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,280 Speaker 1: reached out to me and eventually also checked out snopes 583 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: dot com, a website she trust the bus Urban Legends. 584 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: After that, she felt confident the conspiracy was false. There's 585 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: a microchip on each bile or on each inject or whichever. 586 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: I've read that sense, but not in the actual shot itself. 587 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: It makes more sense to me because they want to 588 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: track the actual vials or the actual shots so that 589 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: they know the quality of the product. This is true. 590 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: Each vaccine label does have a tracker on it in 591 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: order to keep tabs on all those vaccines shipments and 592 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: make sure they're not expired. After we talked, Debora says 593 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: this rumor no longer bothered her on social media. You're 594 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: not really unless there's an actual quotation of a study 595 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: or something, you can't really be sure it's accurate, you 596 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. I try to, you know, consider 597 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: the source. That's what I try to do. But the 598 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,800 Speaker 1: email about Bill Gates was not the last email I 599 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: got from Deborah. She continued to send me misinformation. She encountered. 600 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,479 Speaker 1: Some of it actually concerned her. Other stuff she thought 601 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: sounded fake, but figured I might find it interesting. Life 602 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: almost seems like a rumor whackable for Deborah. Just as 603 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: quickly she quashes one piece of misinformation, another one appears 604 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: that makes her question the reality of the moment. We're 605 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: living in and all of this just makes it hard 606 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: for her to decide whether or not to get vaccinated. 607 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about Deborah is that she's one 608 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 1: of those people who is perfectly in the middle when 609 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: it comes to this debate. A true COVID nineteen vaccine fencitter, 610 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,280 Speaker 1: Debora fully vaccinated her kids and says she really trust 611 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: the advice of her own doctor, but she's had some 612 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: concerns about vaccines before. Emails from Joseph Mrcola made her 613 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: regret giving her kids Gardasil, the vaccine to prevent HPV, 614 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 1: and she no longer gets the flu shot after reading 615 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: something else from him, Deborah says she mainly stopped getting 616 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 1: the flu shot because she doesn't trust drugmakers. Trusting them 617 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: is a hard thing to do for many people. Sure, 618 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: they make life saving medicines and vaccines, but they also 619 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: do aim to make money off of them. The second 620 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: time we talked in mid February, she told me she 621 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: probably would get vaccinated. The bottom line is, I have 622 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: underlying conditions, so it is going to be offered to me, 623 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: and I probably will opt for it because it's a 624 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: pretty frightening thing. And here in California and in southern California. 625 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,280 Speaker 1: In my area alone, since January one, we've had twenty 626 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: six deaths and it's a small area. Towards the end 627 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: of January, she sent me another Facebook conspiracy. This one 628 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: featured a doctor who took a scientific paper wildly out 629 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: of context and suggested people might die months after vaccination. 630 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: It really concerned her. She wrote me a few times 631 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: about it, saying it was the main thing making her 632 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: hesitant to get vaccinated. Then she found a Reuter's article 633 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: debunking it, and she had to make a call. Does 634 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: she believe the spacebook doctor or Reuter's. First of all, 635 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: I had never heard of the doctor before, but Reuter's 636 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: is much more how do I put it, reputable source. 637 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: So I just kind of weighed the two, you know, 638 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: in my mind, it it just what makes sense. In 639 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: the end, Debora decided it just seemed more likely that 640 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,359 Speaker 1: what the video was saying was false, and her own 641 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: doctor had also told her there was no reason for 642 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: her to worry about getting the vaccine. In late March, 643 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: I got another email from Deborah. She had gotten her 644 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: first shot. My shoulder was sore for I would say 645 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: probably two days, but I was a little llergic for 646 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: like maybe the first day to two days. Maybe I'm 647 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: really uh more relieved, and I'll be even more so 648 00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: after the second one. At least this time information triumphed 649 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: over conspiracy, deborra is just one person, though it's a 650 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: whole other game. When you're trying to convince an entire 651 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: community to get vaccinated. There's just more than what's true 652 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: or not to consider. History, generational trauma, and how we 653 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: talk about science all gets folded into that conversation. I 654 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 1: don't like to have to throw tuskegee in your face 655 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,320 Speaker 1: in an order for you to understand that black lives matter, 656 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,280 Speaker 1: and they don't have to be marching in the street 657 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: to matter. They may be in a hospital that matters too. 658 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: I think of what I'm saying to you, that these 659 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: institutions have a history of abuse in the name, but 660 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: I'm here to help you in the name of science. 661 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,479 Speaker 1: Now you want me to trust this science, that's next 662 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: time I'm doubt. Doubt is written and reported by Me 663 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: christ and v Brown Top Foreheads is our senior producer. 664 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: Molly Nugent is our associate producer. Our theme was composed 665 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 1: and performed by Hannis Brown Special Thanks to Bloomberg editors 666 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: Tim Annette and Rick Shine. Francesco Levie is the head 667 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Podcasts. Be sure to subscribe to problem Osis 668 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 1: if you haven't already, and if you like our show, 669 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: please leave us A review helps others find out about 670 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,919 Speaker 1: the show. Thanks for listening. To see you next time.