WEBVTT - Trump Pleads Not Guilty 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:13.640 Earlier this afternoon, Donald Trump was arraigned on a New 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.520 York Supreme Court indictment returned by a Manhattan grand jury 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.599 on thirty four felony counts of falsifying business records in 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:27.160 the first degree. Donald Trump, the first former US president 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.000 to be indicted, pleaded not guilty to thirty four criminal 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.840 counts in the Manhattan District Attorney's case against him, amid 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:39.560 an intense national debate over the prosecution. At a press conference, 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.040 Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg said the office has brought these 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:48.800 kinds of cases before. Thirty four false statements made to 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.960 cover up other crimes. These are felony crimes in New 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:58.200 York State. No matter who you are, we cannot and 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:03.760 will not normal serious criminal conducts. The thirty four counts 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.680 are ordinarily misdemeanors under New York law, but are charged 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.080 as felonies in the case because they were allegedly committed 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.600 in the service of another crime, in this case, promoting 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:19.880 Trump's candidacy by unlawful means. The indictment stems from Bragg's 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.840 probe of hush money payments made just before the twenty 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.600 sixteen election to cover up an alleged decade old affair. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.240 Trump denies the affair and any illegal acts. My guest 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.560 is former prosecutor Joshua Castenberg, a professor at the University 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.280 of New Mexico Law School. So tell us about the 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.039 Manhattan District Attorney's case against Trump. So it's thirty four 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.240 charges of their bones information that doesn't give the general 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.880 public a full outline of who the hush money went 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.600 to and what the defined purpose was. But you can 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.559 drill down and understand that the hush money was paid 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.000 as an expense other than what it was and reported 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.320 for matters other than what it was stated for, and 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.240 it was done to affect the election, and under New 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.120 York law, that makes it a felony. What did you 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:13.080 think about the way Alvin Bragg tried to address I 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.760 think his critics who'd been saying that this was, you know, 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.080 much ado about nothing, he said that this is a 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.639 lie time and time again, and then a cover up. Right. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.200 I mean, I think he made the case as to 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.639 why he brought these charges, and that these charges were 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.959 brought not as a personal vendetta, but rather because there 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.960 was evidence of a crime. What he didn't say, and 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.480 he perhaps was wise not to add, is that, you know, 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.920 for the six years that have preceded the four years 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:48.600 of the presidency, the election before the presidency, there wasn't 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.960 inkling that Trump didn't do things by the books, by 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.400 the rules, and there was sort of the thumb in 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.000 the eye sort of mentality that would go on, and 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.600 that this isn't a case of the FBI or New 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.320 York investigators targeting an individual who's unknown to the public, 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.760 but rather investigating the finances of someone who has kind 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:15.120 of fallen under scrutiny before. So do you think that 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:19.000 he hasn't been answered his critics enough when he said that, 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.639 you know, we investigated, and then I bring cases when 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.200 they're ready to be brought. No, I think he did 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.440 exactly what he needed to do, because if he said 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.400 what I said or made that suggestion, he would go 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.400 a step too far and violate prosecutorial ethics. So he 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.760 made the case. I didn't make this clear enough. He 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.400 made the case as far as he would be permitted 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:45.080 to under prosecutorial ethics without crossing any lines. But that's 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.120 the best he could do. So in that regard. I 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.040 think he did a very effective press confidence And also 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.840 what about his trying to talk about New York the 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.960 importance of business records and how this is just another 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.040 one of hundreds of cases that we've brought like this, 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.880 his white collar crime. Yeah, look, he has the ability 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.520 to say that this is not the first or the 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.520 hundreds or the thousandth white collar crime that New York 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.880 criminal courts will try over the course of the next year, 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.520 or have tried in the prior year or two. That's 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.320 absolutely right. This case is unique because of the defendant 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.080 who's going to be on trial for it, but not 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:27.320 because of the charges. Explain what happens next, Well, what 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.040 happens next is there'll be a process known as a 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.680 discovery process, and that's a constitutional process under both the 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:39.360 US and the New York Constitution that require the prosecution 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:44.000 to provide all evidence in their possession that they intend 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.400 to use at the trial, and also all known exculpatory 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.800 evidence that they may have obtained. So it's not enough 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.479 to just give to the defense, Hey, herow witnesses, and 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.279 here's documentary evidence that we're going to bring to trial. 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.640 The prosecute also has an obligation through that process to 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.720 give evidence that would tend to negate the guilt or 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.360 prove the innocence, if you want to put it another way, 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.040 of mister Trump or any other defendant. That process takes 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.480 a while, and then they'll be all sorts of pre 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:19.000 trial hearings, including motions raised by the defense to dismiss 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.800 the charges, probably change venue. That'll probably be one. And 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.600 also you may see emotion for a gag order or 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.560 some other type of speech restriction raised in the future 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.320 as well, if there's another true social type picture with 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.599 the former president, the baseball bat and the like. These 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.520 allegations have been out there for a long time and 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.039 we've heard most of them. Do you think that the 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.599 defense has to do really any kind of investigative work 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:52.279 beyond what they already know? Oh? Probably so. Mister Trump 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.640 has hard working defense counsel, and they're not going to 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.039 just rely on the information and data that's given to 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.760 them that by mister Bragg. They're going to conduct their 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:06.080 own investigations, and they're probably want to investigate matters that 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.400 their own client tells them, you know, matters that you 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.919 would tend to undermine the integrity of the witnesses called 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.599 by the prosecution, so they will investigate. How long it takes, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.080 I can't speculate. Do you think that they'll be able 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:25.039 to get it dismissed as a novel kind of legal argument, No, 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.280 I don't think so. I mean, these laws have been 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.919 on the books for a long time. I think the 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.480 defense is most likely avenue to make a hard case 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:38.200 for dismissal. Is a statute of limitations case as well 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.159 as you know, the prosecution not having evidence of mister 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.920 Trump's specific intent to commit a fraud, but rather him 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.520 just signing hundreds of documents on any given day and 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.559 not always knowing what he was signing, and what about 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.560 a change of venue, it's likely if they can show 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.320 that there aren't jurors who are bare and impartial. Now, 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.719 the law doesn't require adults serving on a jury to 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.800 be an empty vessel. It doesn't require someone to have 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.280 been a sort of a sleep coma and now they're 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.080 awakened and they're like, oh, I didn't read about this. 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.440 But it does require people to be fair and impartial 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.800 and come in with an open mind, with no preconceived notions, 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.200 and not have a bias against mister Trump. And that's 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.520 the important point. You know, I'm convinced that in the 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:31.120 United States's largest city there are enough citizens out there 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.680 that you could get a jury. But if the process 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.040 takes too long, or if it looks improbable, they'll change 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.720 venue if the defense raises emotions. We've been speculating and 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.480 speculating about what this will be. It's partly what I expected. 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.560 I expected these charges, but I also expected a broader 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.920 charge of conspiracy or criminal enterprise or something broad like that, 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:57.800 an all encompassing charge, and that wasn't in there, and 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.960 so that caught me by surprise. On the other hand, 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.200 of mister Bragg brought that charge, he would be accused 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.240 of overreach. And so I think, you know, there's an 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.840 old rule in charging cases that prosecutors have, and that's 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.200 prosecute what's serious and what you know. You can prove 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.160 what you believe in your heart you can prove. And 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.119 so I think that's what we're looking at right now. 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.400 So and do you think that looking at the indictment 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.440 and all the months of work that the prosecutors basically 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.040 have their case set out, Oh they do. I mean 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.560 when they asked for it, when they asked for an 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.520 early trial date. I think they asked for an early 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:35.920 trial date not to call a bluff or make a 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.480 bluff on the court, but because they believe they're ready 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.520 to go. What do you think about the strength of 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.000 the charges. Well, you know, first of all, we don't 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.480 know what the evidence is that's going to be backing 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.000 these charges. The charges are simply ink on a sheet 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.720 that the prosecutor was able to show to a grand 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:59.000 jury and obtain an indictment by probable cause for that. 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.960 So I'll get more clarity to the strength of the 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.680 prosecution's case in the days and weeks ahead through a 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.680 process known as discovery, and that's when the prosecutor has 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.560 to name witnesses and provide evidence over to mister Trump's 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.680 defense counsel. Having said that, you know, these charges business 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.080 fraud type charges are going to be characterized in a 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.600 lot of different ways, but at their core, whenever someone 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.600 is charged with a crime of fraud, there really is 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.680 essentially just like tax fraud, they're charged with a crime 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.720 of not paying into the system what the system demands 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.240 of them. In this case, you think about you know 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.760 money that New York, the State of New York collects 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.240 this is money that goes to police salaries, teacher salaries, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:47.200 school improvements, road improvements, keeping the subways running. Things like that. 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.199 You know you're going to hear. Look, it's a political crime. 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.960 They're not serious charges. Well, if you talk to a 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.280 police officer who hasn't gotten a raise or a teacher 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:01.079 who's looking at retirement, it all adds up. This case 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.720 was termed a zombie case by a former prosecutor in 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:09.200 the office because it died and kept getting revived over 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.760 the years. Does that make a difference in the long run. 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.360 It matters that it takes that long to bring a 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.520 case to trial. But I think we can read a 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.240 lot of different angles into that. And one angle I 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.960 suggest is, you know, the Trump's attorneys, they're saying, well, look, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.800 even the dj didn't bring this forward, and as are 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.520 the former president's backers in Congress. But let's keep in 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:35.680 mind that mister Trump dismissed a very well regarded United 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.840 States Attorney from the Southern District of New York, you know, 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.120 mister pret Barr. He put his own people in there, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.640 and so we don't know what happened in the US 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.680 Attorney's office, whether they looked at the charges and said 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.080 they're good, but we're not going to go forward, or 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.160 they looked at potential charges and said they're terrible, We're 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.520 not going to go forward. Then we get to divance 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.679 his tenure as DA. These may not be the identical 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.840 charges that Vance's team was looking at. We don't know 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.000 that either, but it is problematic because it makes for 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.439 quite a bit of political fodder, both in Congress and 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.960 on the street. Well, thanks so much, Joshua. That's Professor 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.440 Joshua Castenberg of the University of New Mexico Law School. 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.840 It was the most expensive race for a state Supreme 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.079 Court seat in US history, thirty nine million dollars spent 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:33.000 on advertising, and it swung Wisconsin's highest court toward liberals 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:37.079 for the first time in fifteen years. Milwaukee County Circuit 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:42.120 Judge Janet Proto Sawitz, a liberal, defeated former Justice Dan Kelly, 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.479 a conservative, by more than ten points. Speaking to supporters 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.200 after the election, Proto Sawitz said the state was ready 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.720 for a change in its highest court. Our state is 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.040 taking a step forward to a better and brighter future 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.520 where our rights and freedoms will he protected. In his 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.480 concession speech, Kelly was less than gracious and accused his 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:09.560 opponent of running a dirty campaign. I wish that in 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.400 a circumstance like this, I would be able to concede 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.920 to a worthy opponent, But I do not have a 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:21.760 worthy opponent to which I can concede. Joining me is Bloomberg. 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:26.600 National politics reporter Ryan Teague backwith Ryan tell us about 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:31.120 all this money spent on advertising. The good news for 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.480 in Wisconsin is that the there are for ten years, 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.440 so that money will keep for a while, as though 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.680 I imagine that there'll be some more competitive Supreme Court 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.000 reasons coming up in the coming years. Most of his 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.440 money was spent on behalf of Janet fer Se, who's 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.560 the Milwaukee area judge who it was backed by Democrats. 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.360 She was able to use her money more effectively too, 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.679 because it came directly from Democrats. So because she's spending 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.839 the money herself, then she gets a better rate from 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.000 the broadcasters under the rules. She spent not only more 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.800 money than the Republican backed candidate Dan Kelly, but she 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.880 got more big for her box. So she was running 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.080 a lot of that, and she was spending most of 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:19.480 those bad time talking about abortion, whereas dan Kelly most 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.840 of the money was being spent for him by outside groups. 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.480 What was the focus of the campaigning Was it one 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.840 particular issue? You know, State Supreme Court races are kind 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:35.079 of weird because the candidates usually don't want to talk 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.319 for sort of judicial essex reasons. They don't want to 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.600 get too much into what they think about the issue. 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.240 This one really broke the mold on that there is 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.760 an upcoming case involving in eighteen forty nine, one that's 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:51.520 essentially banned abortion in Wisconsin since Roe versus. Wade was overturned, 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.400 and that case is clearly going to be decided by 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.560 the winner of this rate. There was a four three 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.960 conservative majority on the One of those conservatives was being 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:08.240 vacated and the replacement would determine which side had the majority. 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.720 Janet Perta was running basically by going out there with 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.600 a wink and a nod and saying, I really support 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:20.360 women with abortion. So she was really clearly signaling that 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:25.600 she would overturn the law and restore abortion rights in Wisconsin. 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.520 Dan Kelley has done some work for our anti abortion 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.640 groups in the past. He was more circumspecting. He wasn't 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.160 going to say how he would rule, and that her 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:42.360 claims that he would uphold the band were inaccurate, and 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.280 that she was violating judicial ethics by even tipping her 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.080 hand as much as she was. So abortion was clearly 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.400 clearly the driver of the rights. Were Democrats so focused 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:58.640 on this as well because they have no chance of 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.960 regaining control of the state legislature in the near future. Yes, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.120 jerrymandering is the other issues that this really would decide, 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.840 although I don't think it really motivates voters and it 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.520 wasn't really a focus of the ads for to say, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.160 which was very clear in saying that she thinks that 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.200 there are current maps in the state are as she 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.640 called them rigged. Political scientists I've talked to have a 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.520 number of different ways of measuring how jerrymander maps are. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.960 Basically they all come back saying that these are jerrymandered, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.840 and they've been that way since two eleven, and there's 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.360 not really any way to fix that under the current 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.160 law and under the current court. So for to say, 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.920 what's indicated that she would revisit that issue and that 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.960 those maps may be overturned, which would give Democrats a 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.240 fighting chance that winning back the legislature and winning a 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.400 few more in the Congessional delegation, which is also turnemas. 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.520 So as we know, Wisconsin plays a part repeatedly in 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.720 presidential elections, So explain what happened in twenty twenty when 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.880 it came within a single state Supreme Court vote of 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.640 switching the state's electoral college. This was another issue that 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.320 was kind of low key but was present in the 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.880 race because Dan Kelly had done some work for the 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:18.480 state Republican Party in that capacity, he advised them on 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:23.800 a fake elector scheme during Trump's attempts to overturn his 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.200 loss in Wisconsin in twenty twenty, and he was cited 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.040 by the January sixth Committee in its Furt Court as 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.040 one of the people who had worked on that. He 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:34.760 tried to sort of downplay that and say, you know, 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.400 I was just asked my opinion on things and gave 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.840 something of advice and it was a one time conversation. 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.960 But that raised a lot of questions, and there was 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.360 some third party groups that ran as attacking him on 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.480 that issue and saying we don't want someone on Supreme 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.880 Court who might back one of these efforts in the future. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.680 And we have seen in other races where that's become 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.720 an issue that people really don't like election denial, and 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.440 electri deniers pretty much lost in most of the state 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.840 wide races that they were on the ballot for last November. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:11.879 In Wisconsin, this is particularly Germane because there was a 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.919 OR three decision with one of the conservative justices joining 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:20.040 with the liberals to throw out the attempt by Donald 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.879 Trump to challenge his loss and say we're not going 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.600 to hear it. We're going to We're not going to 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.920 go there. So there was some concern there that they 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:33.120 were one vote away, as there were from from hearing that, 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.560 and who knows what might have happened from there. His 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:41.520 concession speech was not what you would call graceful. He said, 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.440 I wish you that in circumstances like this, I would 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.760 be able to concede to a worthy opponent. But I 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.199 do not have a worthy opponent to which I can concede. 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:54.040 Were there hard feelings between the two of them, I mean, 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.040 aside from even saying I don't have a worthy opponent? 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.800 He said, to which and not to whom y are 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.639 known for those little ticks there, but like he didn't 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.359 even call her a person. Basically, in what passed for 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.399 a consession, I guess I mean that was really really 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.440 classless and not gracious at all. Now, he was very 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.479 upset because he did not like the ads that were 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.880 running against him, and they're one debate that they had 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.040 in late March. He really went after her for her 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.479 ads and said that you don't know what I'm thinking. 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:31.159 You're slandering me with these ads about abortion, and you know, 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.360 seemed to really be bothered by that. The ads did 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.840 not strike me, as someone who watches a lot of 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.639 political ads as being particularly beyond the pale. I know 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.000 judges and he was a past justice on the State 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.280 Supreme Quarter, had been appointed may not be used to 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:50.600 that rough and tumble, but he also worked for the 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.359 State Republican Party, So it was a little mystifying to 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.560 me that he was quite this bothered by his loss. Now, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.000 that wasn't eleven point loss, and it wasn't second time 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.359 time that he's lost an election for the State Supreme 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.000 Court in the last few years, So maybe he was 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.920 just taking it more personally. There's some people who are 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.040 worried that this signals that there may be more to 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:15.560 come here the legislature. The Republicans just warned a supermajority 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.159 on the legislature and a special election that was also 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.120 on the ballot, and that gives them the ability to 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:28.280 impeach statewide officials. And there had already been some people 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.520 in the state Republican party throwing around the idea of 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.920 impeaching for to se with if she was elected. That's 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.720 to several steps between now and that possibility, which I 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.280 think is still fairly remote because you're kind of got 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.000 to get everybody on board with that idea. But if 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.920 it looks like she's going to throw out the Gerryman 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.320 and during and that could affect the livelihood of all 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:53.960 of the members of the legislature, there may be a 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.320 temptation to take the fight and continue it. So I 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.680 think we'll see where that goes. It's definitely a very 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.520 closely fought state that it's very evenly tied between the 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.840 two parties, and Republicans have been able to use that 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.520 during Mandarin to end their control of the screenport in 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.359 the state to really kind of old power for a 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:20.560 long time. Democrats with this win look to be breaking 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:24.880 that lock, and so I expect that their counter reaction 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.320 to that will be pretty fierce. So we'll see this 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.800 state the real locus of activity. I think in twenty 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.160 twenty four, do they have grounds that they are going 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.439 to use to impeach her on already? Are they going 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.480 to come up with grounds? I think if you're saying, 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.760 let's impeach someone who hasn't even been in office, yeah, 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:46.560 I think you're kind of tipping your hand that you 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.399 don't exactly have grounds. But they probably could come up 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.920 with something like, well, you know, because she said these 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.320 maps were rigged and now she is refusing to refuse 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.919 herself from you know, a case on it, then she 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.320 should be impeached. They also, we were attacking her for 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.159 accepting money from the State Democratic Party, although that's a 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.000 pretty routine thing, you know, saying that she should recuse 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.080 herself from any cases involving the State Democratic Party. So 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.160 imagine that there will be a lot of different arguments 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.159 that they could make if they decided that something that 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.359 they want to do. And again, if if it really 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.639 looks like, you know, they could lose control of the 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.639 left fature by new maps being drawn up, then that 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.280 may be something that moves more closer to a possibility. 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:33.000 But I would still say we're always awesome, and she 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.479 won by a wide margin, so it didn't even end 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:37.840 up being that close of a race. Yes, he won 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.160 by eleven percent. This was a blowout. This was turnout 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:45.480 was up, and turnout was and and the youth turnout 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:50.600 was incredibly high. The area around the University of Madison, Wisconsin. 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.000 Turnout was extremely high there and they were voting. And 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.399 Dane County there by like eighty percent for pro to 0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.960 say with even as for to say was holding down 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.520 down the Republican margin and some of the suburbs that 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.960 they traditionally win. So this has shown I think again 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:12.399 as with our Governor Tony Win in November, that Democrats 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.719 have figured out how to win Wisconsin right now, and 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.040 it's largely using abortion. It's an issue that's helping them 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.920 win the suburbs, and it's helping them to turn out, 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.600 and it's helping them win women voters, and by enough 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.880 of a margin to offset what otherwise, like I said, 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.280 is a really closely tied stake. Do you think that 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.480 Democrats are going to be looking at this race and 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:40.000 the abortion strategy used and perhaps using it in national 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.000 races or in other races. I mean, I definitely think 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.880 that we're going to see that be an issue nationally 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.119 in twenty twenty four. President Biden does not like talking 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.800 about social issues because he thinks that they rile people 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:55.600 up on the other side as much as they rile 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:57.959 up your side, and so he looks for ways to 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.320 de escalate them whenever possible and change the object to 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.560 kitchen table stuff. Abortion is the one exception there, and 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:07.080 that's larger because it clearly right now riles up more 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.479 people on the side of supporting abortion right then it 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.919 does rile up people who are opposed to abortion, Like 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.320 there is a turnout advantage here. If you can make 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:18.240 a race about abortion and you can show that there 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:20.520 will be an actual consequence if you vote on this, 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.080 then you're going to get that higher turnout and you're 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:26.439 going to win those voters. So I think Democrats are 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.000 definitely going to be looking to making more races about that, 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:32.560 and I think that Biden will definitely be talking about 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.000