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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this afternoon, Donald Trump was arraigned on a New

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Speaker 1: York Supreme Court indictment returned by a Manhattan grand jury

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Speaker 1: on thirty four felony counts of falsifying business records in

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Speaker 1: the first degree. Donald Trump, the first former US president

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Speaker 1: to be indicted, pleaded not guilty to thirty four criminal

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Speaker 1: counts in the Manhattan District Attorney's case against him, amid

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Speaker 1: an intense national debate over the prosecution. At a press conference,

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Speaker 1: Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg said the office has brought these

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Speaker 1: kinds of cases before. Thirty four false statements made to

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Speaker 1: cover up other crimes. These are felony crimes in New

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Speaker 1: York State. No matter who you are, we cannot and

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Speaker 1: will not normal serious criminal conducts. The thirty four counts

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Speaker 1: are ordinarily misdemeanors under New York law, but are charged

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Speaker 1: as felonies in the case because they were allegedly committed

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Speaker 1: in the service of another crime, in this case, promoting

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Speaker 1: Trump's candidacy by unlawful means. The indictment stems from Bragg's

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Speaker 1: probe of hush money payments made just before the twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen election to cover up an alleged decade old affair.

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Speaker 1: Trump denies the affair and any illegal acts. My guest

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Speaker 1: is former prosecutor Joshua Castenberg, a professor at the University

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Speaker 1: of New Mexico Law School. So tell us about the

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Speaker 1: Manhattan District Attorney's case against Trump. So it's thirty four

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Speaker 1: charges of their bones information that doesn't give the general

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Speaker 1: public a full outline of who the hush money went

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Speaker 1: to and what the defined purpose was. But you can

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Speaker 1: drill down and understand that the hush money was paid

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Speaker 1: as an expense other than what it was and reported

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Speaker 1: for matters other than what it was stated for, and

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Speaker 1: it was done to affect the election, and under New

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Speaker 1: York law, that makes it a felony. What did you

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Speaker 1: think about the way Alvin Bragg tried to address I

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Speaker 1: think his critics who'd been saying that this was, you know,

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Speaker 1: much ado about nothing, he said that this is a

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Speaker 1: lie time and time again, and then a cover up. Right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think he made the case as to

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Speaker 1: why he brought these charges, and that these charges were

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Speaker 1: brought not as a personal vendetta, but rather because there

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Speaker 1: was evidence of a crime. What he didn't say, and

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Speaker 1: he perhaps was wise not to add, is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: for the six years that have preceded the four years

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Speaker 1: of the presidency, the election before the presidency, there wasn't

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Speaker 1: inkling that Trump didn't do things by the books, by

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Speaker 1: the rules, and there was sort of the thumb in

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Speaker 1: the eye sort of mentality that would go on, and

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Speaker 1: that this isn't a case of the FBI or New

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Speaker 1: York investigators targeting an individual who's unknown to the public,

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Speaker 1: but rather investigating the finances of someone who has kind

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Speaker 1: of fallen under scrutiny before. So do you think that

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Speaker 1: he hasn't been answered his critics enough when he said that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we investigated, and then I bring cases when

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Speaker 1: they're ready to be brought. No, I think he did

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Speaker 1: exactly what he needed to do, because if he said

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Speaker 1: what I said or made that suggestion, he would go

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Speaker 1: a step too far and violate prosecutorial ethics. So he

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Speaker 1: made the case. I didn't make this clear enough. He

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Speaker 1: made the case as far as he would be permitted

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Speaker 1: to under prosecutorial ethics without crossing any lines. But that's

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Speaker 1: the best he could do. So in that regard. I

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Speaker 1: think he did a very effective press confidence And also

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Speaker 1: what about his trying to talk about New York the

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Speaker 1: importance of business records and how this is just another

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Speaker 1: one of hundreds of cases that we've brought like this,

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Speaker 1: his white collar crime. Yeah, look, he has the ability

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Speaker 1: to say that this is not the first or the

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Speaker 1: hundreds or the thousandth white collar crime that New York

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Speaker 1: criminal courts will try over the course of the next year,

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Speaker 1: or have tried in the prior year or two. That's

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. This case is unique because of the defendant

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Speaker 1: who's going to be on trial for it, but not

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Speaker 1: because of the charges. Explain what happens next, Well, what

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Speaker 1: happens next is there'll be a process known as a

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Speaker 1: discovery process, and that's a constitutional process under both the

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Speaker 1: US and the New York Constitution that require the prosecution

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Speaker 1: to provide all evidence in their possession that they intend

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Speaker 1: to use at the trial, and also all known exculpatory

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Speaker 1: evidence that they may have obtained. So it's not enough

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Speaker 1: to just give to the defense, Hey, herow witnesses, and

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Speaker 1: here's documentary evidence that we're going to bring to trial.

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Speaker 1: The prosecute also has an obligation through that process to

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Speaker 1: give evidence that would tend to negate the guilt or

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Speaker 1: prove the innocence, if you want to put it another way,

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Speaker 1: of mister Trump or any other defendant. That process takes

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Speaker 1: a while, and then they'll be all sorts of pre

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Speaker 1: trial hearings, including motions raised by the defense to dismiss

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Speaker 1: the charges, probably change venue. That'll probably be one. And

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Speaker 1: also you may see emotion for a gag order or

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Speaker 1: some other type of speech restriction raised in the future

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Speaker 1: as well, if there's another true social type picture with

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Speaker 1: the former president, the baseball bat and the like. These

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Speaker 1: allegations have been out there for a long time and

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Speaker 1: we've heard most of them. Do you think that the

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Speaker 1: defense has to do really any kind of investigative work

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Speaker 1: beyond what they already know? Oh? Probably so. Mister Trump

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Speaker 1: has hard working defense counsel, and they're not going to

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Speaker 1: just rely on the information and data that's given to

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Speaker 1: them that by mister Bragg. They're going to conduct their

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Speaker 1: own investigations, and they're probably want to investigate matters that

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Speaker 1: their own client tells them, you know, matters that you

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Speaker 1: would tend to undermine the integrity of the witnesses called

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Speaker 1: by the prosecution, so they will investigate. How long it takes,

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Speaker 1: I can't speculate. Do you think that they'll be able

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Speaker 1: to get it dismissed as a novel kind of legal argument, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, these laws have been

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Speaker 1: on the books for a long time. I think the

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Speaker 1: defense is most likely avenue to make a hard case

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Speaker 1: for dismissal. Is a statute of limitations case as well

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Speaker 1: as you know, the prosecution not having evidence of mister

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Speaker 1: Trump's specific intent to commit a fraud, but rather him

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Speaker 1: just signing hundreds of documents on any given day and

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Speaker 1: not always knowing what he was signing, and what about

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Speaker 1: a change of venue, it's likely if they can show

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Speaker 1: that there aren't jurors who are bare and impartial. Now,

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Speaker 1: the law doesn't require adults serving on a jury to

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Speaker 1: be an empty vessel. It doesn't require someone to have

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Speaker 1: been a sort of a sleep coma and now they're

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Speaker 1: awakened and they're like, oh, I didn't read about this.

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Speaker 1: But it does require people to be fair and impartial

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Speaker 1: and come in with an open mind, with no preconceived notions,

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Speaker 1: and not have a bias against mister Trump. And that's

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Speaker 1: the important point. You know, I'm convinced that in the

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Speaker 1: United States's largest city there are enough citizens out there

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Speaker 1: that you could get a jury. But if the process

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Speaker 1: takes too long, or if it looks improbable, they'll change

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Speaker 1: venue if the defense raises emotions. We've been speculating and

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Speaker 1: speculating about what this will be. It's partly what I expected.

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Speaker 1: I expected these charges, but I also expected a broader

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Speaker 1: charge of conspiracy or criminal enterprise or something broad like that,

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Speaker 1: an all encompassing charge, and that wasn't in there, and

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Speaker 1: so that caught me by surprise. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: of mister Bragg brought that charge, he would be accused

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Speaker 1: of overreach. And so I think, you know, there's an

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Speaker 1: old rule in charging cases that prosecutors have, and that's

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Speaker 1: prosecute what's serious and what you know. You can prove

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Speaker 1: what you believe in your heart you can prove. And

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Speaker 1: so I think that's what we're looking at right now.

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Speaker 1: So and do you think that looking at the indictment

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Speaker 1: and all the months of work that the prosecutors basically

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Speaker 1: have their case set out, Oh they do. I mean

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Speaker 1: when they asked for it, when they asked for an

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Speaker 1: early trial date. I think they asked for an early

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Speaker 1: trial date not to call a bluff or make a

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Speaker 1: bluff on the court, but because they believe they're ready

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Speaker 1: to go. What do you think about the strength of

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Speaker 1: the charges. Well, you know, first of all, we don't

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Speaker 1: know what the evidence is that's going to be backing

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Speaker 1: these charges. The charges are simply ink on a sheet

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Speaker 1: that the prosecutor was able to show to a grand

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Speaker 1: jury and obtain an indictment by probable cause for that.

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Speaker 1: So I'll get more clarity to the strength of the

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Speaker 1: prosecution's case in the days and weeks ahead through a

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Speaker 1: process known as discovery, and that's when the prosecutor has

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Speaker 1: to name witnesses and provide evidence over to mister Trump's

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Speaker 1: defense counsel. Having said that, you know, these charges business

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Speaker 1: fraud type charges are going to be characterized in a

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Speaker 1: lot of different ways, but at their core, whenever someone

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Speaker 1: is charged with a crime of fraud, there really is

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Speaker 1: essentially just like tax fraud, they're charged with a crime

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Speaker 1: of not paying into the system what the system demands

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Speaker 1: of them. In this case, you think about you know

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Speaker 1: money that New York, the State of New York collects

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Speaker 1: this is money that goes to police salaries, teacher salaries,

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Speaker 1: school improvements, road improvements, keeping the subways running. Things like that.

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Speaker 1: You know you're going to hear. Look, it's a political crime.

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Speaker 1: They're not serious charges. Well, if you talk to a

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Speaker 1: police officer who hasn't gotten a raise or a teacher

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Speaker 1: who's looking at retirement, it all adds up. This case

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Speaker 1: was termed a zombie case by a former prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: the office because it died and kept getting revived over

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Speaker 1: the years. Does that make a difference in the long run.

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Speaker 1: It matters that it takes that long to bring a

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Speaker 1: case to trial. But I think we can read a

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Speaker 1: lot of different angles into that. And one angle I

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Speaker 1: suggest is, you know, the Trump's attorneys, they're saying, well, look,

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Speaker 1: even the dj didn't bring this forward, and as are

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Speaker 1: the former president's backers in Congress. But let's keep in

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Speaker 1: mind that mister Trump dismissed a very well regarded United

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Speaker 1: States Attorney from the Southern District of New York, you know,

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Speaker 1: mister pret Barr. He put his own people in there,

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Speaker 1: and so we don't know what happened in the US

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Speaker 1: Attorney's office, whether they looked at the charges and said

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Speaker 1: they're good, but we're not going to go forward, or

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Speaker 1: they looked at potential charges and said they're terrible, We're

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Speaker 1: not going to go forward. Then we get to divance

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Speaker 1: his tenure as DA. These may not be the identical

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Speaker 1: charges that Vance's team was looking at. We don't know

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Speaker 1: that either, but it is problematic because it makes for

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of political fodder, both in Congress and

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Speaker 1: on the street. Well, thanks so much, Joshua. That's Professor

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Speaker 1: Joshua Castenberg of the University of New Mexico Law School.

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Speaker 1: It was the most expensive race for a state Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court seat in US history, thirty nine million dollars spent

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Speaker 1: on advertising, and it swung Wisconsin's highest court toward liberals

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Speaker 1: for the first time in fifteen years. Milwaukee County Circuit

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Speaker 1: Judge Janet Proto Sawitz, a liberal, defeated former Justice Dan Kelly,

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Speaker 1: a conservative, by more than ten points. Speaking to supporters

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Speaker 1: after the election, Proto Sawitz said the state was ready

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Speaker 1: for a change in its highest court. Our state is

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Speaker 1: taking a step forward to a better and brighter future

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Speaker 1: where our rights and freedoms will he protected. In his

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Speaker 1: concession speech, Kelly was less than gracious and accused his

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Speaker 1: opponent of running a dirty campaign. I wish that in

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Speaker 1: a circumstance like this, I would be able to concede

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Speaker 1: to a worthy opponent, But I do not have a

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Speaker 1: worthy opponent to which I can concede. Joining me is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: National politics reporter Ryan Teague backwith Ryan tell us about

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Speaker 1: all this money spent on advertising. The good news for

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Speaker 1: in Wisconsin is that the there are for ten years,

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Speaker 1: so that money will keep for a while, as though

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Speaker 1: I imagine that there'll be some more competitive Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: reasons coming up in the coming years. Most of his

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Speaker 1: money was spent on behalf of Janet fer Se, who's

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Speaker 1: the Milwaukee area judge who it was backed by Democrats.

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Speaker 1: She was able to use her money more effectively too,

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Speaker 1: because it came directly from Democrats. So because she's spending

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Speaker 1: the money herself, then she gets a better rate from

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Speaker 1: the broadcasters under the rules. She spent not only more

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Speaker 1: money than the Republican backed candidate Dan Kelly, but she

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Speaker 1: got more big for her box. So she was running

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Speaker 1: a lot of that, and she was spending most of

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Speaker 1: those bad time talking about abortion, whereas dan Kelly most

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Speaker 1: of the money was being spent for him by outside groups.

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Speaker 1: What was the focus of the campaigning Was it one

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Speaker 1: particular issue? You know, State Supreme Court races are kind

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Speaker 1: of weird because the candidates usually don't want to talk

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Speaker 1: for sort of judicial essex reasons. They don't want to

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Speaker 1: get too much into what they think about the issue.

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Speaker 1: This one really broke the mold on that there is

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Speaker 1: an upcoming case involving in eighteen forty nine, one that's

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Speaker 1: essentially banned abortion in Wisconsin since Roe versus. Wade was overturned,

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Speaker 1: and that case is clearly going to be decided by

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Speaker 1: the winner of this rate. There was a four three

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Speaker 1: conservative majority on the One of those conservatives was being

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Speaker 1: vacated and the replacement would determine which side had the majority.

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Speaker 1: Janet Perta was running basically by going out there with

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Speaker 1: a wink and a nod and saying, I really support

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Speaker 1: women with abortion. So she was really clearly signaling that

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Speaker 1: she would overturn the law and restore abortion rights in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: Dan Kelley has done some work for our anti abortion

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Speaker 1: groups in the past. He was more circumspecting. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to say how he would rule, and that her

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Speaker 1: claims that he would uphold the band were inaccurate, and

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Speaker 1: that she was violating judicial ethics by even tipping her

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Speaker 1: hand as much as she was. So abortion was clearly

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Speaker 1: clearly the driver of the rights. Were Democrats so focused

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Speaker 1: on this as well because they have no chance of

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Speaker 1: regaining control of the state legislature in the near future. Yes,

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Speaker 1: jerrymandering is the other issues that this really would decide,

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Speaker 1: although I don't think it really motivates voters and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really a focus of the ads for to say,

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Speaker 1: which was very clear in saying that she thinks that

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Speaker 1: there are current maps in the state are as she

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Speaker 1: called them rigged. Political scientists I've talked to have a

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Speaker 1: number of different ways of measuring how jerrymander maps are.

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Speaker 1: Basically they all come back saying that these are jerrymandered,

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Speaker 1: and they've been that way since two eleven, and there's

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Speaker 1: not really any way to fix that under the current

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Speaker 1: law and under the current court. So for to say,

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Speaker 1: what's indicated that she would revisit that issue and that

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Speaker 1: those maps may be overturned, which would give Democrats a

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Speaker 1: fighting chance that winning back the legislature and winning a

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Speaker 1: few more in the Congessional delegation, which is also turnemas.

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Speaker 1: So as we know, Wisconsin plays a part repeatedly in

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Speaker 1: presidential elections, So explain what happened in twenty twenty when

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Speaker 1: it came within a single state Supreme Court vote of

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Speaker 1: switching the state's electoral college. This was another issue that

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Speaker 1: was kind of low key but was present in the

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Speaker 1: race because Dan Kelly had done some work for the

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Speaker 1: state Republican Party in that capacity, he advised them on

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Speaker 1: a fake elector scheme during Trump's attempts to overturn his

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Speaker 1: loss in Wisconsin in twenty twenty, and he was cited

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Speaker 1: by the January sixth Committee in its Furt Court as

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Speaker 1: one of the people who had worked on that. He

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Speaker 1: tried to sort of downplay that and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was just asked my opinion on things and gave

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Speaker 1: something of advice and it was a one time conversation.

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Speaker 1: But that raised a lot of questions, and there was

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Speaker 1: some third party groups that ran as attacking him on

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Speaker 1: that issue and saying we don't want someone on Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court who might back one of these efforts in the future.

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Speaker 1: And we have seen in other races where that's become

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Speaker 1: an issue that people really don't like election denial, and

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Speaker 1: electri deniers pretty much lost in most of the state

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Speaker 1: wide races that they were on the ballot for last November.

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Speaker 1: In Wisconsin, this is particularly Germane because there was a

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Speaker 1: OR three decision with one of the conservative justices joining

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Speaker 1: with the liberals to throw out the attempt by Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump to challenge his loss and say we're not going

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Speaker 1: to hear it. We're going to We're not going to

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Speaker 1: go there. So there was some concern there that they

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Speaker 1: were one vote away, as there were from from hearing that,

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Speaker 1: and who knows what might have happened from there. His

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Speaker 1: concession speech was not what you would call graceful. He said,

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Speaker 1: I wish you that in circumstances like this, I would

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Speaker 1: be able to concede to a worthy opponent. But I

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Speaker 1: do not have a worthy opponent to which I can concede.

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Speaker 1: Were there hard feelings between the two of them, I mean,

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Speaker 1: aside from even saying I don't have a worthy opponent?

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Speaker 1: He said, to which and not to whom y are

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Speaker 1: known for those little ticks there, but like he didn't

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Speaker 1: even call her a person. Basically, in what passed for

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Speaker 1: a consession, I guess I mean that was really really

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Speaker 1: classless and not gracious at all. Now, he was very

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Speaker 1: upset because he did not like the ads that were

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Speaker 1: running against him, and they're one debate that they had

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Speaker 1: in late March. He really went after her for her

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Speaker 1: ads and said that you don't know what I'm thinking.

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Speaker 1: You're slandering me with these ads about abortion, and you know,

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Speaker 1: seemed to really be bothered by that. The ads did

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Speaker 1: not strike me, as someone who watches a lot of

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Speaker 1: political ads as being particularly beyond the pale. I know

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Speaker 1: judges and he was a past justice on the State

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Speaker 1: Supreme Quarter, had been appointed may not be used to

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Speaker 1: that rough and tumble, but he also worked for the

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Speaker 1: State Republican Party, So it was a little mystifying to

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Speaker 1: me that he was quite this bothered by his loss. Now,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't eleven point loss, and it wasn't second time

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Speaker 1: time that he's lost an election for the State Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court in the last few years, So maybe he was

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Speaker 1: just taking it more personally. There's some people who are

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Speaker 1: worried that this signals that there may be more to

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Speaker 1: come here the legislature. The Republicans just warned a supermajority

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Speaker 1: on the legislature and a special election that was also

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Speaker 1: on the ballot, and that gives them the ability to

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Speaker 1: impeach statewide officials. And there had already been some people

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Speaker 1: in the state Republican party throwing around the idea of

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Speaker 1: impeaching for to se with if she was elected. That's

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Speaker 1: to several steps between now and that possibility, which I

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Speaker 1: think is still fairly remote because you're kind of got

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Speaker 1: to get everybody on board with that idea. But if

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Speaker 1: it looks like she's going to throw out the Gerryman

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Speaker 1: and during and that could affect the livelihood of all

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Speaker 1: of the members of the legislature, there may be a

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Speaker 1: temptation to take the fight and continue it. So I

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Speaker 1: think we'll see where that goes. It's definitely a very

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Speaker 1: closely fought state that it's very evenly tied between the

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Speaker 1: two parties, and Republicans have been able to use that

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Speaker 1: during Mandarin to end their control of the screenport in

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Speaker 1: the state to really kind of old power for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Democrats with this win look to be breaking

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Speaker 1: that lock, and so I expect that their counter reaction

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Speaker 1: to that will be pretty fierce. So we'll see this

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Speaker 1: state the real locus of activity. I think in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, do they have grounds that they are going

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Speaker 1: to use to impeach her on already? Are they going

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Speaker 1: to come up with grounds? I think if you're saying,

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Speaker 1: let's impeach someone who hasn't even been in office, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're kind of tipping your hand that you

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Speaker 1: don't exactly have grounds. But they probably could come up

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Speaker 1: with something like, well, you know, because she said these

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Speaker 1: maps were rigged and now she is refusing to refuse

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Speaker 1: herself from you know, a case on it, then she

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Speaker 1: should be impeached. They also, we were attacking her for

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Speaker 1: accepting money from the State Democratic Party, although that's a

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Speaker 1: pretty routine thing, you know, saying that she should recuse

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Speaker 1: herself from any cases involving the State Democratic Party. So

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Speaker 1: imagine that there will be a lot of different arguments

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Speaker 1: that they could make if they decided that something that

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Speaker 1: they want to do. And again, if if it really

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Speaker 1: looks like, you know, they could lose control of the

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Speaker 1: left fature by new maps being drawn up, then that

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Speaker 1: may be something that moves more closer to a possibility.

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Speaker 1: But I would still say we're always awesome, and she

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Speaker 1: won by a wide margin, so it didn't even end

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Speaker 1: up being that close of a race. Yes, he won

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Speaker 1: by eleven percent. This was a blowout. This was turnout

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Speaker 1: was up, and turnout was and and the youth turnout

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Speaker 1: was incredibly high. The area around the University of Madison, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: Turnout was extremely high there and they were voting. And

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Speaker 1: Dane County there by like eighty percent for pro to

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Speaker 1: say with even as for to say was holding down

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Speaker 1: down the Republican margin and some of the suburbs that

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Speaker 1: they traditionally win. So this has shown I think again

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Speaker 1: as with our Governor Tony Win in November, that Democrats

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Speaker 1: have figured out how to win Wisconsin right now, and

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Speaker 1: it's largely using abortion. It's an issue that's helping them

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Speaker 1: win the suburbs, and it's helping them to turn out,

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Speaker 1: and it's helping them win women voters, and by enough

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Speaker 1: of a margin to offset what otherwise, like I said,

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Speaker 1: is a really closely tied stake. Do you think that

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Speaker 1: Democrats are going to be looking at this race and

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Speaker 1: the abortion strategy used and perhaps using it in national

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Speaker 1: races or in other races. I mean, I definitely think

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Speaker 1: that we're going to see that be an issue nationally

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four. President Biden does not like talking

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Speaker 1: about social issues because he thinks that they rile people

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Speaker 1: up on the other side as much as they rile

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Speaker 1: up your side, and so he looks for ways to

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Speaker 1: de escalate them whenever possible and change the object to

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Speaker 1: kitchen table stuff. Abortion is the one exception there, and

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Speaker 1: that's larger because it clearly right now riles up more

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Speaker 1: people on the side of supporting abortion right then it

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Speaker 1: does rile up people who are opposed to abortion, Like

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Speaker 1: there is a turnout advantage here. If you can make

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Speaker 1: a race about abortion and you can show that there

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Speaker 1: will be an actual consequence if you vote on this,

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Speaker 1: then you're going to get that higher turnout and you're

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Speaker 1: going to win those voters. So I think Democrats are

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Speaker 1: definitely going to be looking to making more races about that,

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Speaker 1: and I think that Biden will definitely be talking about

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Speaker 1: it a lot in his ads and his campaign stops,

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Speaker 1: even though it's not a natural issue for him, because

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Speaker 1: this has just yet another example of that being a

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Speaker 1: very effective message for Democrats and one that the Republicans

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Speaker 1: really did not have a good counter for the State

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court are a lot of their decisions so close. No,

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Speaker 1: it's really just on that handful of issues where you

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Speaker 1: really get that partisan divide and it matters. I think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of issues that state supreme courts consider

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Speaker 1: about this law or that law, and you know, how

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Speaker 1: should we determine legislative intent of this or that? And

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Speaker 1: those can break in all kinds of ways. They're really

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Speaker 1: not a part of some sort of hotbeds that I

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Speaker 1: think people see, like the Supreme Court. But when it's

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Speaker 1: crunch time, Um, you know, on a handful of issues

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Speaker 1: there there are divisions. The proportion was clearly one and

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Speaker 1: jerrymandering is clearly another. And you know, I imagine it's

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Speaker 1: been fifteen years since Democrats had a majority on the

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Speaker 1: state supreme courts. Imagine there's a lot of issues that

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Speaker 1: they hadn't even bothered with because they didn't think they

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Speaker 1: would win. So we may see you know, some Democratic

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Speaker 1: allied groups going to the state Supreme Court with the

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Speaker 1: arguments about union organizing or social issues and trying to

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Speaker 1: see if they can win a case there that might

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Speaker 1: help them out or help them achieve them policy goal.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it will definitely be a fee change

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Speaker 1: there in the state in terms of who has the power.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Ryan, that's Bloomberg. National politics reporter Ryan

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Speaker 1: Teague beckwith I'm June Grosso. When you're listening to Bloomberg,