WEBVTT - Lara Logan Talks to Armstrong & Getty 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.120 So another long form podcast from the Armstrong and Getty Show. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:05.520 If you don't know who we are, Jack Armstrong and 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:07.720 Joe Getty. We do a radio show all up and 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:09.920 down the West Coast, big cities. But we we've had 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:11.760 a lot of guests on our radio show over the years. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:13.360 We thought, geez, we could talk to you for an hour, 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.280 So we thought we'd start doing that with some of 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.800 our guests. And what a pleasure it is to have 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:24.239 another conversation with Laura Logan, a legendary foreign correspondent, Chief 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.600 Foreign Affairs correspondent for CBS News, longtime correspondent for CBS 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.800 is sixty minutes and uh and and not only a 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.280 great reporter, but a thinker and observer of human beings 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.120 around the globe. Laura Logan, here's a couple of things 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.680 have happened just in the last couple of days in Afghanistan. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.240 Suicide attacks, a midwife training center, a refugee assistants office, 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.160 a cricket match, a convoy of seek and Hindu leaders, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.760 a customs building, an elementary school, a ceasefire celebration, and 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.280 a crowded prayer service at a Shiite mosque, in addition 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.040 to an attack on a military base that Creek killed 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.520 three foreign soldiers and injured in American all those just 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.400 in the last a couple of days. That's not what 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.440 we were hoping for when we went into Afghanistan seventeen 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.800 years ago. Yeah, so where are we, Well, we're at 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.560 the point of surrender basically, if you um, that's what 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.840 you know. The Afghan um people that I know and 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.679 have known for a very long time, Afghan lawyers, Afghan Americans, 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.679 Afghans on the ground there they right now, the US 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.840 is engaged in peace talks with the Taliban. We have 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.880 given up on precondition from the very beginning, from nine eleven. 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:34.760 The preconditions were that the Taliban had to embrace the 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.560 Afghan constitution, they had to denounce violence, and they had 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.840 to renounce any um affiliation or affinity to Al Qaeda 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.520 or their ideology. So we've given up on all of that. 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.200 We've thrown that out the window. We also said that 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.640 they had to talk to the Afghan government because the 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.360 only way they could sell peace to their people was 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.560 for this to be a legitimate Afghan process. We've abandoned 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.520 that and uh and we've now sat down three times 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:05.360 with the Taliban emissaries that their opposite and cutter and um, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:09.080 and we are basically negotiating the terms of what many 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.600 afghan see as a surrender. Well and correct me if 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.880 I'm wrong. It's it's probably going to smell a little 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.160 bit like the peace agreement in Vietnam, in which we 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.520 shout peace with honor, peace with honor, and run for 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.919 the door. And then what ensues is anything but peace 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.919 or honor. Well, yes, I mean in some in some respects. 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.600 You know those Vietnam analogies. Um, they're very popular and 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.040 they and they resonate, right. Um. The reason that I 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.720 don't really like them too much, Um, just based on 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.720 what I have seen and learned on the ground in Afghanistan, 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.760 what what what will happen here? Is unlikely that the 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.600 US is to do an absolutely complete withdrawal. I mean 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.120 nobody can say, right. All of us are guessing because 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.040 we're trying to predict what's going to happen in the future. 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.680 But if you look at the sign designs are that 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.079 the US is probably going to maintain a price and 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.600 um in Afghanistan at Bagram Air Base and in the 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:06.760 south so near the capital Carble, that would be Bagram 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.400 and then the south would be Kanadahar. Why because Pakistan 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.560 has nuclear weapons, it's just across the border, and it 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.640 has the highest concentration of terrorist groups on any patch 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.079 of ground in the world. So the U s is 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:24.040 is UM is very aware of the consequences of pulling 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.440 out completely, not just because of the experience of Vietnam. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.079 But Vietnam didn't follow the US home, right, I mean 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.120 the last time the US pulled out of Afghanistan and 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.800 disengaged after the defeating helping the Afghanistan the Soviets, it 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.080 did follow the U s home. It followed the US 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.640 all the way to nine eleven and beyond. So um, 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.040 there is a very real example right now in the presents, 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.560 not just the historical example of that cost on top 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.440 of the fact that that war is not over. In fact, 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.360 it's spread to many different battle fields across the world, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.000 whether it's y m And or Syria, you know, or 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.320 Iraq or other races. And you will say, oh, well, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.440 those are different wars. Well, they're not rarely different in 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.200 terms of the ideology and what the groups are fighting 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.680 for and the U and the potential consequences for the US. 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:15.040 So in Afghanistan. What most people expect is that the 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.440 US will not withdraw completely, They'll maintain some kind of presence. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:20.680 And on top of that, if you look at the 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:25.080 mineral resulces of Afghanistan, the US UM geology report that 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:30.120 came out recently estimated that worth at around a trillion dollars. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.000 And what the US saw in Iraq was the moment 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:37.400 that we walked out of Iraq before the US even 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.280 with through from Iraq. Who is there negotiating for the oil? 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.640 The Chinese, and so they beat the US to it. 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:46.920 So you sacrifice all that blood and treasure in Iraq, 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.200 and you let other countries around China everybody else read 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.359 the benefits um And so is the US willing to 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.240 do that again in Afghanistan? The Russians, the Iranians, the Chinese, 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:02.440 they're already engaged Afghanistan, sitting on massive mineral resources. And 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:07.520 Trump has recently President Trump has been inquiring and asking 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.440 questions about Afghana sentimental resources, So that is definitely on 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.320 his radar. So you have a president who hates nation 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.880 building and state building, who doesn't believe in it, who 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:21.600 doesn't UM, who has not made his displeasure with the 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.720 situation in Afghanistan unknown. You know, he's on the record 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:27.120 through the campaign and since he took off as a 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.200 saying we need results. And he's also expressed interest in 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.360 the mineral resources. So how did those those things play 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.960 into where we are now in Afghana? Send him where 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.840 things are going? Wow? That is all very interesting. You know. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.200 It makes me think of our involvement in all these 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.120 different countries and uh, and I'm not sure we ever 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.120 end up with any different results. I mean, we got 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.000 as engaged as you can get in Iraq, we stayed 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.799 out of Egypt, we got kind of engaged in Libya, 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.920 I mean, and and now with the Afghanistan, it just 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.480 uh does it make any difference? So Okay, I'm gonna 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.360 be really cynical here. Did we stay out of Egypt? 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.640 You know? Did we stay out at any of these 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.599 What you were talking about is the levels of engagement 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.760 and the type of engagement, right, It wasn't Clinteston and 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.039 COVID diplomatic? Was it very So you're saying we got 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.240 very engaged in Iraq. Yes, we got very engaged in 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.840 Iraq for all you know, Um, you could argue many 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.000 people would argue that we got engaged for the wrong reasons, right, 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.279 I mean, I remember I was one of those journalists 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.760 scratching my head when they were talking about, you know, 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.720 Saddam Hussein, because the only Al Qaeda presence in Iraq 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:41.520 at that time was up in the north, in the 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:45.800 Kurdish region, and it was called Ansar Altuna. And of course, 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.280 you know, after the fall of Saddam you had al 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.880 Qaeda strengthened itself enormously and then the birth of its 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.479 UM ultra violence, frontline combat army, UM. You know, come 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.400 to the four in the form of isis but UM. 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.880 But there the reality is is it your form of engagement, 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.279 that UM that dictates your lack of success or is 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.040 it the fact that UM the U S hasn't really 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:19.000 demonstrated the willingness to win decisively in any of these conflicts. 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.640 You know, in Syria, there were some options in the beginning. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.400 You could argue that none of them were great. But 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.920 a few years in, once you've lost hundreds of thousands 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.680 of Syrians had been murdered and tortured, UM and wounded 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:36.960 and suffered, and Russia had consolidated its hold, Iranic consolidated 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.040 its hold and asside. With their assistance and the failure 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.400 of the Obama administration to keep its red line, had 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.360 had managed to make sure that you have no good 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.640 options left right, So engagement with dise engagement are not 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.760 your only two options. We in political terms, that's what 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.160 we sell to the American people. We get engaged or 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.440 we don't get engaged. Right, that's what works. You live, Yeah, 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.760 perfect example. Oh no, we weren't gonna get engaged in Nebya. 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:05.680 We're gonna use nature. We're gonna bump from the guys. 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:07.800 We've got rid of Aa Duffy. And that was the 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.360 signature of farm policy success of the last administration. Well, 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.400 where is Libya today? It's a failed state. It's a 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.920 failed state that's acting as a staging ground and a 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.960 base and um and basically a munitions and weapons factory 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.880 for every terrorist group in the world, including Al Qaider 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.440 and ISIS. So, but nobody wants to talk about that, right, Well, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.720 it's funny I do politically, I actually do, as long 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:32.960 as our tour of horror has brought us to Libya. 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:34.960 I just read Tom Friedman in The New York Times 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.960 said the other day that toppling Kadafi without building a 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.000 new order may go down as the single dumbest action 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.280 the NATO Alliance ever took. Do you agree? But yes, 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.920 I mean, well, you know, um, I would say there's 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.600 a panteon of dumb decisions that NATO has made. But 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.800 I don't like putting things on NATO like that, you know, 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.200 we love to do that as as journalists and men, 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.280 cats and politicians. NATO is made up of countries, and 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.199 those countries are made up of leaders, and those leaders 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.240 made those decisions, and we as journalists allow them to 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.040 get away with it, right, I mean, and we as 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.679 people and voters allowed them to get away with it. 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.840 These things are not anonymous, and we love to sit 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.680 in retrospect and look back on administrations and say, oh, 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.240 look how they failed. But when they're actually in the 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.640 process of making those decisions and carrying out those policies, 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.840 we don't like to hold them accountable because then we 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.319 have to be accountable to right, and we have to 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.200 deal with the consequences. The only exception to that that 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.599 I've observed, you know, very in very neutral capacity. I 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.960 don't say this as a pro or four in a 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.240 very neutral capacity. The only president that I've seen as 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.840 a sitting president who's getting absolutely pummeled for every decision 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:51.240 he makes. Is the one who is currently in the 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.200 White House, And I don't even want to say his 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.920 name because god, you know, then you unleash a fire. 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.600 Soone coming off to you, right, But I'm not I 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.959 don't there, you know. For me as a journalist, my 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.960 job is and as someone who's been in Afghanistan and 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:06.959 been on the ground in these places from the very 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.440 beginning of these conflicts. No, that's what I care about 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.720 looking at those things. I I'm not like, I'm not 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.520 a political animal. In fact, it's probably be the death 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:18.920 of me because I'm a very not political animal. And 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:24.080 I and the politics is a is just a suicidal game, right, 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.400 I mean, it's it's death bipolitics. You get caught up 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.000 in all of that. If you just you step away 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:31.480 from things and look at them in terms of the 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.200 principles and in terms of the reality, and you take 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.640 the hysteria out of it, the political hysteria out of it. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.079 That's what I try to do when I try to 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.960 understand and we try to lump all these conflicts together 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:45.480 when it's too to us, and then we tried to 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.720 separate them. When it suits us, you say, oh, you know, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.360 kid is not an existential threat to the US. We 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.240 don't care what they're doing in Timbuktu and Molly. That's 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.960 not going to affect us ever. Well, except maybe it 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.600 would have. Maybe it would look different if you look 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.800 at what's the reality the way I'll Tider looks at it, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.840 and what al Qaida will admit to you is that 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:08.360 this is all part of their army. That these are 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.719 all different battalions and units. The thing is our battalions 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.600 and units. They're all part of, you know, the same army. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.520 And they were the same uniforms, and they they you know, 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.880 they take the same they make the same um contract 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.800 with the US government. There's they just they redefined what 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.640 it is to have an army. They redefined what it 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.120 is to fight a conventional war, never mind the terrorist war. 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.880 They've taken all those pieces and they put them together 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.040 and they use them in different ways. And and we, 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.600 for some inexplicable reason, seems that it's our duty to 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.959 help them do that because we helped their propaganda by 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.160 separating them. We helped their propaganda by saying it's all 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.960 our faulks. Because we screwed up everywhere, right, and now 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.480 it's all our faults. We we seem how bent on 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.439 helping them win, which is just a mystery to me. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.360 I'm sorry, who's saying it's all our fault? Well, you know, 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.080 if you if you read um, if you read on 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.040 the media, and you listened to our politicians day from 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.000 because that we created Isis because we invaded Iraq. Really 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:12.920 is that how it worked. We made it easy for 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.000 Isis to take roots. But those are all if you 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.000 Ryan Crocker home it was ambassador to Iraq said it 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.400 best when he said, these are all the same guys 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.400 that I was I was dealing with when I was 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.560 ambassador and they were kaida In I rock very exactly 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.319 the same people. Even't create them, you know what I mean, 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.080 we didn't give birth to them. They're fighting for the 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:33.920 same thing that they were fighting for when they had 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.520 a different name. So they rebranded. Why Because conventional armies 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:43.760 hold territory. Clandestine intelligence organizations they spread, They work on 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.840 ideology and intelligence. That's what they specialized in Al Qaeda. 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.160 After Night and eleven went to underground. Yeah, you know 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.800 that's why they They they had a network of organizations 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.320 all across the work Unsal al Sharia Libya, Unsu al 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.800 Sharia Tunisia. Why did these organizations exist, who funded them, 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.559 who built them, what to whose allegiance? Who were they 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.600 tied to? And by the way, the Obomber administration, after 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.439 saying that the attack in Benghazi was carried out by 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.439 unsal Sharia Olivia, which was a nondescription, you know, unimportant 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:21.280 local organization with the Obomber Treasury Department, then sanctioned them 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.360 as an al Qaida organization, which you know, any journalists 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.319 with half a brain would have known. Who knew at 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.160 the time that this was al Qaida Olivia. But what 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.040 al Qaida knew was if you put your Alchaidia name 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.839 on every organization that is part of you, You're gonna 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.000 face sanctions. It's going to be impossible to operate. You're 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.240 gonna have the resources of the U S and all 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.880 of its allies mobilized against you. Right, I mean smart 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.600 clandestine In certain terrorist organizations, they don't put a big 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:55.800 target on their heads. Not calling yourself like al Qaida 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.040 and like closing down for a day and reopening is terrorism. 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.600 HUT is good enough to do a good enough distraction. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:08.599 That's astounding. Of course. In fact, you know many organizations 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.080 that done it. Look if you go back to the 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.000 African National Congress ANC in South Africa when they were 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.000 banned by the South African government, what did they do? 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.880 They created the UDF, the United Democratic Front, and so 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.560 the u d F could then they could campaign in public, 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.520 they could hold rallies, they could have political offices. Who 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.400 were they They would basically d, A and C. I mean, 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:33.000 that's that's what terrorists and insurgent organizations do. It's the 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:37.040 only smart way to survive. And also don't forget to proliferate, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.040 because that allows you to function and proliferate everywhere. What 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.120 al Qaeda did with nine eleven was they put their 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.480 stamp as the ideological leaders of the global Islamic hid. 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.800 Nobody has been able to challenge them, right, nobody can 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.600 knock them off their pedestals. And the moment that nine 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.800 eleven happened, they knew that the US was all its 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.560 power and might be becoming accidents. That's exactly what the 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.760 US it with its allies. So if you're going to 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.880 live to fight another day, if you're Asamam London and 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.120 you're compare yourself to Mohammed when he fled from was 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.000 forced out of Mecca two and forced out of Mecca 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.840 and Medina and went into the hydra. He spent thirty 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:19.800 years fighting to get back. Right, that's nothing, That's absolutely 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.600 nothing to these people, because they think in generational terms 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.320 and messianic terms. They go back to the Koran. They're talking, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.720 you know, they're talking hundreds of years. So what does 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.880 it matter if you go underground for ten people always 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:35.800 say in you as, oh, well, look we've had no 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.360 no major attack in you as. That shows our policies 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.760 are working. Does it does it tell your policies are working? 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.200 Or does it show that some of your policies have 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.200 had some effects? But actually it also might demonstrate that 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.960 your enemy has shifted its tactics. You know, I was 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:55.040 just gonna ask whether, in your view, violent fundamentalist Islam 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.920 under whatever banner, is on the rise, on the decline, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:15:59.960 or but you seem to be implying that the game 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.600 is so long that you know, I'm not sure it's 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:08.320 a worthwhile question. I'm not so see, I'm not implying anything. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.480 I'm saying very clearly, if you listen to what al 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:17.160 Qaeda tells you and what the ideology states, it is 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.320 a long game. If you look at what they're doing 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.480 recruiting children, what is the cubs of the caliphates? And 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:26.640 the isis why did Hitler build the Hitler youth? Because 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.440 he was planning on you know, the next two years? No, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.400 because he was planning on the next generation, right, I mean, 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:39.640 that's that's not an implication. They say that their actions 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.280 demonstrate that they've proved that they've got the cups of 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.840 the caliphate when they started and when these youth, the 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.240 youth that they were recruiting. You talked about us being 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.080 in Afghanistan for more than seventeen years, right, we'll think 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.080 about it. That ten year old is how old? Now? Yeah, 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.640 that's incredible. When you started doing the math on those things, 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:01.480 you get near thirty year olds that were there from 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.560 the beginning. I mean it's just, Um, that's the thing is, 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.080 I'm not a prophet, right, I can't tell you what 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.760 they plan and what they think or what anyone is 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.879 going to do, you know. I Mean that's what my 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.399 worst thing ever as the journalist is being asked on 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.600 the morning ut. You know, so, what's gonna happen. It's like, okay, 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.239 what let wait, let me let me see I've run 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.240 an expert what I am as a students of these 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.879 people and what they they want to do, because what 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.200 they have demonstrated is is that they carry they mean 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.159 what they say, and they follow their words. They've shown 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.320 that over and over and over again. I can give 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.800 you a hundred different examples. So I tried to understand 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.520 when are they being genuine, when are they being deceptive? 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.200 When are they being strategic? When are they being tactical? 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:50.040 And I tried to build a base of knowledge on that. 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.040 And you do the same thing with the U S 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.280 of course, you know, it's always um, it's different depending 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.960 on who's in power in the US. And and we 0:17:58.080 --> 0:17:59.840 like to hit the reset button, you know, a new 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.119 administration comes in and they think, oh, they're going to 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.520 change everything. Pakistan's a perfect example. Every new Newish general, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.840 every new US ambassador, every new US administration goes into 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:12.800 Pakistan and things, they're going to reinvent the Pakistani story 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.120 and none of them have succeed. Well that that makes 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.200 me playing the same game. So I'm trying to take 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:24.119 some overarching philosophy out of what you're saying, so is 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:28.879 is Western Western civilization just not Are we not taking 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.719 this threat seriously enough? Or maybe we're just not built 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:36.480 for long games? Were built for short games? Well we do. 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:40.040 I mean it is, you know, it's it's well acknowledged 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.040 and understood that in Western civilization, and particularly in the US, 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.479 we or instant gratification people, right, I mean, look at 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.080 all the technology that's being created. All of it is 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.920 built around instant gratification. And and we think in terms 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.720 of election cycles, we don't. I remember sitting with Jack Ma. 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.919 You know Jack Ma, the Chinese billionaire entrepreneur, genius, change 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.000 the world, bring the Internet to China, um superstar, so 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.120 you know who created Ali barber and you know brought 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.440 uh like ups. There was no delivery service like that 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.679 in China. He bore all of these things to China, right, 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.040 and he's continuing to change China and change the world 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.480 as a result. So Jack Man, I sat in this 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.280 tea shop in China. They had two thousand year old 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:31.080 tea on the menu. Got to be a little I 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.800 didn't even know t could survive for two thousand years. 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.640 But yeah, no kidding, But I see where you're going there. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:38.959 The Yeah, the rest of the world thinks and a 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.600 lot longer terms, and we do. Our entire focus in 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.480 the United States is an election coming up, you know, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:46.560 in a month or so, and then we'll focus on 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.160 the next six months. We don't think about two thousand 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.080 year old tea. We think in terms of election cycles. 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.240 And with technology, we think in terms of right now. 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.359 I mean, our kids don't even wait for the next 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:03.480 episode to come next week. They they binge watched right. Yeah. 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.960 We had a boss who once said that there were 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.639 a civilization that paces back and forth and patiently in 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.320 front of a microwave, which I thought was a pretty 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:16.040 good way to put it. Yes, yes, And you know 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.119 Jack Mark said to me in that conversation and the 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.879 tea shop, he said, you know, we we look at 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.080 the world in terms of thousands of years, in terms 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.200 of centuries and civilizations. Our philosophy goes back a very 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.640 long way. It's fascinating to us to look at you 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:35.520 and and see how you think. I mean. And he 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.439 defined the relationship how the US relationship with China had 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.639 changed in his lifetime by looking at his grandfather's relationship 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.520 and then his father's and then his you know, here 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.960 he is doing business with the US. He's going to 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.439 the US and bringing seeing the Internet and bringing that 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.520 to China. What was his father, what was his grandfather? 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:56.439 You know, I mean one of them was a was 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:00.480 at war, a pow and was at war right, And 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.879 from one generation to the next, that relationship and that 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.960 image of the US change. So it's it's not a 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.840 unique US thing to be instant gratification. There's a lot 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:15.480 of of the New World is like that. But if 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.600 you look at the philosophy of al Qader and you 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:23.440 read the ideology bin Laden and Abdullah Zam the Palestinian 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.879 philosopher that he wrote the ideology with, they talked in 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:32.240 in messianic terms. They talked in generations and years. I'll 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.240 give you a I'll give you one of the most 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.760 visceral examples that I ever experienced. I was in northern 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.359 Iraq when after the fall of Mosl, when Isis were 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.000 in control of the city, and it was such a 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.560 terrifying place to be because James Foley had been beheaded 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.040 in an orange jump. Student Steven salt Loc and all 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.680 the others that followed right and um and I said, 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.840