1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: So another long form podcast from the Armstrong and Getty Show. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: If you don't know who we are, Jack Armstrong and 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Joe Getty. We do a radio show all up and 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: down the West Coast, big cities. But we we've had 5 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: a lot of guests on our radio show over the years. 6 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: We thought, geez, we could talk to you for an hour, 7 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: So we thought we'd start doing that with some of 8 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: our guests. And what a pleasure it is to have 9 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: another conversation with Laura Logan, a legendary foreign correspondent, Chief 10 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Foreign Affairs correspondent for CBS News, longtime correspondent for CBS 11 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: is sixty minutes and uh and and not only a 12 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: great reporter, but a thinker and observer of human beings 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: around the globe. Laura Logan, here's a couple of things 14 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: have happened just in the last couple of days in Afghanistan. 15 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: Suicide attacks, a midwife training center, a refugee assistants office, 16 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: a cricket match, a convoy of seek and Hindu leaders, 17 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: a customs building, an elementary school, a ceasefire celebration, and 18 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: a crowded prayer service at a Shiite mosque, in addition 19 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: to an attack on a military base that Creek killed 20 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: three foreign soldiers and injured in American all those just 21 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: in the last a couple of days. That's not what 22 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: we were hoping for when we went into Afghanistan seventeen 23 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, so where are we, Well, we're at 24 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: the point of surrender basically, if you um, that's what 25 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: you know. The Afghan um people that I know and 26 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: have known for a very long time, Afghan lawyers, Afghan Americans, 27 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: Afghans on the ground there they right now, the US 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: is engaged in peace talks with the Taliban. We have 29 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: given up on precondition from the very beginning, from nine eleven. 30 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: The preconditions were that the Taliban had to embrace the 31 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: Afghan constitution, they had to denounce violence, and they had 32 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: to renounce any um affiliation or affinity to Al Qaeda 33 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: or their ideology. So we've given up on all of that. 34 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: We've thrown that out the window. We also said that 35 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: they had to talk to the Afghan government because the 36 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: only way they could sell peace to their people was 37 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: for this to be a legitimate Afghan process. We've abandoned 38 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: that and uh and we've now sat down three times 39 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: with the Taliban emissaries that their opposite and cutter and um, 40 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: and we are basically negotiating the terms of what many 41 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: afghan see as a surrender. Well and correct me if 42 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm wrong. It's it's probably going to smell a little 43 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: bit like the peace agreement in Vietnam, in which we 44 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: shout peace with honor, peace with honor, and run for 45 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: the door. And then what ensues is anything but peace 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: or honor. Well, yes, I mean in some in some respects. 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: You know those Vietnam analogies. Um, they're very popular and 48 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: they and they resonate, right. Um. The reason that I 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: don't really like them too much, Um, just based on 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: what I have seen and learned on the ground in Afghanistan, 51 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: what what what will happen here? Is unlikely that the 52 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: US is to do an absolutely complete withdrawal. I mean 53 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: nobody can say, right. All of us are guessing because 54 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: we're trying to predict what's going to happen in the future. 55 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: But if you look at the sign designs are that 56 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: the US is probably going to maintain a price and 57 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: um in Afghanistan at Bagram Air Base and in the 58 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: south so near the capital Carble, that would be Bagram 59 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: and then the south would be Kanadahar. Why because Pakistan 60 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: has nuclear weapons, it's just across the border, and it 61 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: has the highest concentration of terrorist groups on any patch 62 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: of ground in the world. So the U s is 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: is UM is very aware of the consequences of pulling 64 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: out completely, not just because of the experience of Vietnam. 65 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: But Vietnam didn't follow the US home, right, I mean 66 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: the last time the US pulled out of Afghanistan and 67 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: disengaged after the defeating helping the Afghanistan the Soviets, it 68 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: did follow the U s home. It followed the US 69 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: all the way to nine eleven and beyond. So um, 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: there is a very real example right now in the presents, 71 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: not just the historical example of that cost on top 72 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: of the fact that that war is not over. In fact, 73 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: it's spread to many different battle fields across the world, 74 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: whether it's y m And or Syria, you know, or 75 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: Iraq or other races. And you will say, oh, well, 76 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: those are different wars. Well, they're not rarely different in 77 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: terms of the ideology and what the groups are fighting 78 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: for and the U and the potential consequences for the US. 79 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: So in Afghanistan. What most people expect is that the 80 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: US will not withdraw completely, They'll maintain some kind of presence. 81 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: And on top of that, if you look at the 82 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: mineral resulces of Afghanistan, the US UM geology report that 83 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: came out recently estimated that worth at around a trillion dollars. 84 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: And what the US saw in Iraq was the moment 85 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: that we walked out of Iraq before the US even 86 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: with through from Iraq. Who is there negotiating for the oil? 87 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: The Chinese, and so they beat the US to it. 88 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: So you sacrifice all that blood and treasure in Iraq, 89 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: and you let other countries around China everybody else read 90 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: the benefits um And so is the US willing to 91 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: do that again in Afghanistan? The Russians, the Iranians, the Chinese, 92 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: they're already engaged Afghanistan, sitting on massive mineral resources. And 93 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: Trump has recently President Trump has been inquiring and asking 94 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: questions about Afghana sentimental resources, So that is definitely on 95 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: his radar. So you have a president who hates nation 96 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: building and state building, who doesn't believe in it, who 97 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: doesn't UM, who has not made his displeasure with the 98 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: situation in Afghanistan unknown. You know, he's on the record 99 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: through the campaign and since he took off as a 100 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: saying we need results. And he's also expressed interest in 101 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: the mineral resources. So how did those those things play 102 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: into where we are now in Afghana? Send him where 103 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: things are going? Wow? That is all very interesting. You know. 104 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: It makes me think of our involvement in all these 105 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: different countries and uh, and I'm not sure we ever 106 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: end up with any different results. I mean, we got 107 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: as engaged as you can get in Iraq, we stayed 108 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 1: out of Egypt, we got kind of engaged in Libya, 109 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: I mean, and and now with the Afghanistan, it just 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: uh does it make any difference? So Okay, I'm gonna 111 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: be really cynical here. Did we stay out of Egypt? 112 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: You know? Did we stay out at any of these 113 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: What you were talking about is the levels of engagement 114 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: and the type of engagement, right, It wasn't Clinteston and 115 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: COVID diplomatic? Was it very So you're saying we got 116 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: very engaged in Iraq. Yes, we got very engaged in 117 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: Iraq for all you know, Um, you could argue many 118 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: people would argue that we got engaged for the wrong reasons, right, 119 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember I was one of those journalists 120 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: scratching my head when they were talking about, you know, 121 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein, because the only Al Qaeda presence in Iraq 122 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: at that time was up in the north, in the 123 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: Kurdish region, and it was called Ansar Altuna. And of course, 124 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: you know, after the fall of Saddam you had al 125 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: Qaeda strengthened itself enormously and then the birth of its 126 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: UM ultra violence, frontline combat army, UM. You know, come 127 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: to the four in the form of isis but UM. 128 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: But there the reality is is it your form of engagement, 129 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: that UM that dictates your lack of success or is 130 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: it the fact that UM the U S hasn't really 131 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: demonstrated the willingness to win decisively in any of these conflicts. 132 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: You know, in Syria, there were some options in the beginning. 133 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: You could argue that none of them were great. But 134 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: a few years in, once you've lost hundreds of thousands 135 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: of Syrians had been murdered and tortured, UM and wounded 136 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: and suffered, and Russia had consolidated its hold, Iranic consolidated 137 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: its hold and asside. With their assistance and the failure 138 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: of the Obama administration to keep its red line, had 139 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: had managed to make sure that you have no good 140 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: options left right, So engagement with dise engagement are not 141 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: your only two options. We in political terms, that's what 142 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: we sell to the American people. We get engaged or 143 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: we don't get engaged. Right, that's what works. You live, Yeah, 144 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: perfect example. Oh no, we weren't gonna get engaged in Nebya. 145 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: We're gonna use nature. We're gonna bump from the guys. 146 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: We've got rid of Aa Duffy. And that was the 147 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: signature of farm policy success of the last administration. Well, 148 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: where is Libya today? It's a failed state. It's a 149 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: failed state that's acting as a staging ground and a 150 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: base and um and basically a munitions and weapons factory 151 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: for every terrorist group in the world, including Al Qaider 152 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: and ISIS. So, but nobody wants to talk about that, right, Well, 153 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: it's funny I do politically, I actually do, as long 154 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: as our tour of horror has brought us to Libya. 155 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: I just read Tom Friedman in The New York Times 156 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: said the other day that toppling Kadafi without building a 157 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: new order may go down as the single dumbest action 158 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: the NATO Alliance ever took. Do you agree? But yes, 159 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean, well, you know, um, I would say there's 160 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: a panteon of dumb decisions that NATO has made. But 161 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't like putting things on NATO like that, you know, 162 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: we love to do that as as journalists and men, 163 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: cats and politicians. NATO is made up of countries, and 164 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: those countries are made up of leaders, and those leaders 165 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: made those decisions, and we as journalists allow them to 166 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: get away with it, right, I mean, and we as 167 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: people and voters allowed them to get away with it. 168 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: These things are not anonymous, and we love to sit 169 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: in retrospect and look back on administrations and say, oh, 170 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: look how they failed. But when they're actually in the 171 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: process of making those decisions and carrying out those policies, 172 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: we don't like to hold them accountable because then we 173 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: have to be accountable to right, and we have to 174 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: deal with the consequences. The only exception to that that 175 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 1: I've observed, you know, very in very neutral capacity. I 176 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: don't say this as a pro or four in a 177 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: very neutral capacity. The only president that I've seen as 178 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: a sitting president who's getting absolutely pummeled for every decision 179 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: he makes. Is the one who is currently in the 180 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: White House, And I don't even want to say his 181 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: name because god, you know, then you unleash a fire. 182 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: Soone coming off to you, right, But I'm not I 183 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: don't there, you know. For me as a journalist, my 184 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: job is and as someone who's been in Afghanistan and 185 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: been on the ground in these places from the very 186 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: beginning of these conflicts. No, that's what I care about 187 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: looking at those things. I I'm not like, I'm not 188 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: a political animal. In fact, it's probably be the death 189 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: of me because I'm a very not political animal. And 190 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: I and the politics is a is just a suicidal game, right, 191 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's death bipolitics. You get caught up 192 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: in all of that. If you just you step away 193 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: from things and look at them in terms of the 194 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: principles and in terms of the reality, and you take 195 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: the hysteria out of it, the political hysteria out of it. 196 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: That's what I try to do when I try to 197 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: understand and we try to lump all these conflicts together 198 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: when it's too to us, and then we tried to 199 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: separate them. When it suits us, you say, oh, you know, 200 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: kid is not an existential threat to the US. We 201 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: don't care what they're doing in Timbuktu and Molly. That's 202 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: not going to affect us ever. Well, except maybe it 203 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: would have. Maybe it would look different if you look 204 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: at what's the reality the way I'll Tider looks at it, 205 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: and what al Qaida will admit to you is that 206 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: this is all part of their army. That these are 207 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 1: all different battalions and units. The thing is our battalions 208 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: and units. They're all part of, you know, the same army. 209 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: And they were the same uniforms, and they they you know, 210 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: they take the same they make the same um contract 211 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: with the US government. There's they just they redefined what 212 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: it is to have an army. They redefined what it 213 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: is to fight a conventional war, never mind the terrorist war. 214 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: They've taken all those pieces and they put them together 215 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: and they use them in different ways. And and we, 216 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: for some inexplicable reason, seems that it's our duty to 217 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: help them do that because we helped their propaganda by 218 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: separating them. We helped their propaganda by saying it's all 219 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: our faulks. Because we screwed up everywhere, right, and now 220 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: it's all our faults. We we seem how bent on 221 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: helping them win, which is just a mystery to me. 222 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, who's saying it's all our fault? Well, you know, 223 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: if you if you read um, if you read on 224 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: the media, and you listened to our politicians day from 225 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: because that we created Isis because we invaded Iraq. Really 226 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: is that how it worked. We made it easy for 227 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: Isis to take roots. But those are all if you 228 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: Ryan Crocker home it was ambassador to Iraq said it 229 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: best when he said, these are all the same guys 230 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: that I was I was dealing with when I was 231 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: ambassador and they were kaida In I rock very exactly 232 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: the same people. Even't create them, you know what I mean, 233 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: we didn't give birth to them. They're fighting for the 234 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: same thing that they were fighting for when they had 235 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: a different name. So they rebranded. Why Because conventional armies 236 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: hold territory. Clandestine intelligence organizations they spread, They work on 237 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: ideology and intelligence. That's what they specialized in Al Qaeda. 238 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: After Night and eleven went to underground. Yeah, you know 239 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: that's why they They they had a network of organizations 240 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: all across the work Unsal al Sharia Libya, Unsu al 241 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Sharia Tunisia. Why did these organizations exist, who funded them, 242 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: who built them, what to whose allegiance? Who were they 243 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: tied to? And by the way, the Obomber administration, after 244 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: saying that the attack in Benghazi was carried out by 245 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: unsal Sharia Olivia, which was a nondescription, you know, unimportant 246 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: local organization with the Obomber Treasury Department, then sanctioned them 247 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: as an al Qaida organization, which you know, any journalists 248 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: with half a brain would have known. Who knew at 249 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: the time that this was al Qaida Olivia. But what 250 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: al Qaida knew was if you put your Alchaidia name 251 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: on every organization that is part of you, You're gonna 252 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: face sanctions. It's going to be impossible to operate. You're 253 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: gonna have the resources of the U S and all 254 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: of its allies mobilized against you. Right, I mean smart 255 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: clandestine In certain terrorist organizations, they don't put a big 256 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: target on their heads. Not calling yourself like al Qaida 257 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: and like closing down for a day and reopening is terrorism. 258 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: HUT is good enough to do a good enough distraction. 259 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 1: That's astounding. Of course. In fact, you know many organizations 260 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: that done it. Look if you go back to the 261 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: African National Congress ANC in South Africa when they were 262 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: banned by the South African government, what did they do? 263 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: They created the UDF, the United Democratic Front, and so 264 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: the u d F could then they could campaign in public, 265 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: they could hold rallies, they could have political offices. Who 266 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: were they They would basically d, A and C. I mean, 267 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: that's that's what terrorists and insurgent organizations do. It's the 268 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: only smart way to survive. And also don't forget to proliferate, 269 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: because that allows you to function and proliferate everywhere. What 270 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: al Qaeda did with nine eleven was they put their 271 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: stamp as the ideological leaders of the global Islamic hid. 272 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: Nobody has been able to challenge them, right, nobody can 273 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: knock them off their pedestals. And the moment that nine 274 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: eleven happened, they knew that the US was all its 275 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: power and might be becoming accidents. That's exactly what the 276 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: US it with its allies. So if you're going to 277 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: live to fight another day, if you're Asamam London and 278 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: you're compare yourself to Mohammed when he fled from was 279 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: forced out of Mecca two and forced out of Mecca 280 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: and Medina and went into the hydra. He spent thirty 281 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: years fighting to get back. Right, that's nothing, That's absolutely 282 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: nothing to these people, because they think in generational terms 283 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: and messianic terms. They go back to the Koran. They're talking, 284 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, they're talking hundreds of years. So what does 285 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: it matter if you go underground for ten people always 286 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: say in you as, oh, well, look we've had no 287 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: no major attack in you as. That shows our policies 288 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: are working. Does it does it tell your policies are working? 289 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: Or does it show that some of your policies have 290 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: had some effects? But actually it also might demonstrate that 291 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: your enemy has shifted its tactics. You know, I was 292 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: just gonna ask whether, in your view, violent fundamentalist Islam 293 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: under whatever banner, is on the rise, on the decline, 294 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: or but you seem to be implying that the game 295 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: is so long that you know, I'm not sure it's 296 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: a worthwhile question. I'm not so see, I'm not implying anything. 297 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying very clearly, if you listen to what al 298 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: Qaeda tells you and what the ideology states, it is 299 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: a long game. If you look at what they're doing 300 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: recruiting children, what is the cubs of the caliphates? And 301 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: the isis why did Hitler build the Hitler youth? Because 302 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: he was planning on you know, the next two years? No, 303 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: because he was planning on the next generation, right, I mean, 304 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: that's that's not an implication. They say that their actions 305 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: demonstrate that they've proved that they've got the cups of 306 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: the caliphate when they started and when these youth, the 307 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: youth that they were recruiting. You talked about us being 308 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan for more than seventeen years, right, we'll think 309 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: about it. That ten year old is how old? Now? Yeah, 310 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: that's incredible. When you started doing the math on those things, 311 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: you get near thirty year olds that were there from 312 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: the beginning. I mean it's just, Um, that's the thing is, 313 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: I'm not a prophet, right, I can't tell you what 314 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: they plan and what they think or what anyone is 315 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: going to do, you know. I Mean that's what my 316 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: worst thing ever as the journalist is being asked on 317 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: the morning ut. You know, so, what's gonna happen. It's like, okay, 318 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 1: what let wait, let me let me see I've run 319 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: an expert what I am as a students of these 320 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: people and what they they want to do, because what 321 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: they have demonstrated is is that they carry they mean 322 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: what they say, and they follow their words. They've shown 323 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: that over and over and over again. I can give 324 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: you a hundred different examples. So I tried to understand 325 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: when are they being genuine, when are they being deceptive? 326 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: When are they being strategic? When are they being tactical? 327 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: And I tried to build a base of knowledge on that. 328 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: And you do the same thing with the U S 329 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: of course, you know, it's always um, it's different depending 330 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: on who's in power in the US. And and we 331 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: like to hit the reset button, you know, a new 332 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: administration comes in and they think, oh, they're going to 333 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: change everything. Pakistan's a perfect example. Every new Newish general, 334 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: every new US ambassador, every new US administration goes into 335 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: Pakistan and things, they're going to reinvent the Pakistani story 336 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: and none of them have succeed. Well that that makes 337 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: me playing the same game. So I'm trying to take 338 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: some overarching philosophy out of what you're saying, so is 339 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: is Western Western civilization just not Are we not taking 340 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: this threat seriously enough? Or maybe we're just not built 341 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: for long games? Were built for short games? Well we do. 342 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean it is, you know, it's it's well acknowledged 343 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: and understood that in Western civilization, and particularly in the US, 344 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: we or instant gratification people, right, I mean, look at 345 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: all the technology that's being created. All of it is 346 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: built around instant gratification. And and we think in terms 347 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: of election cycles, we don't. I remember sitting with Jack Ma. 348 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: You know Jack Ma, the Chinese billionaire entrepreneur, genius, change 349 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: the world, bring the Internet to China, um superstar, so 350 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: you know who created Ali barber and you know brought 351 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: uh like ups. There was no delivery service like that 352 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: in China. He bore all of these things to China, right, 353 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: and he's continuing to change China and change the world 354 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: as a result. So Jack Man, I sat in this 355 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: tea shop in China. They had two thousand year old 356 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: tea on the menu. Got to be a little I 357 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: didn't even know t could survive for two thousand years. 358 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, no kidding, But I see where you're going there. 359 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: The Yeah, the rest of the world thinks and a 360 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: lot longer terms, and we do. Our entire focus in 361 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: the United States is an election coming up, you know, 362 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: in a month or so, and then we'll focus on 363 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: the next six months. We don't think about two thousand 364 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: year old tea. We think in terms of election cycles. 365 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: And with technology, we think in terms of right now. 366 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: I mean, our kids don't even wait for the next 367 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: episode to come next week. They they binge watched right. Yeah. 368 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: We had a boss who once said that there were 369 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: a civilization that paces back and forth and patiently in 370 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: front of a microwave, which I thought was a pretty 371 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: good way to put it. Yes, yes, And you know 372 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: Jack Mark said to me in that conversation and the 373 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: tea shop, he said, you know, we we look at 374 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the world in terms of thousands of years, in terms 375 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: of centuries and civilizations. Our philosophy goes back a very 376 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: long way. It's fascinating to us to look at you 377 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: and and see how you think. I mean. And he 378 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: defined the relationship how the US relationship with China had 379 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: changed in his lifetime by looking at his grandfather's relationship 380 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: and then his father's and then his you know, here 381 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: he is doing business with the US. He's going to 382 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: the US and bringing seeing the Internet and bringing that 383 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: to China. What was his father, what was his grandfather? 384 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: You know, I mean one of them was a was 385 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: at war, a pow and was at war right, And 386 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: from one generation to the next, that relationship and that 387 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: image of the US change. So it's it's not a 388 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: unique US thing to be instant gratification. There's a lot 389 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: of of the New World is like that. But if 390 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: you look at the philosophy of al Qader and you 391 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: read the ideology bin Laden and Abdullah Zam the Palestinian 392 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: philosopher that he wrote the ideology with, they talked in 393 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: in messianic terms. They talked in generations and years. I'll 394 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: give you a I'll give you one of the most 395 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: visceral examples that I ever experienced. I was in northern 396 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: Iraq when after the fall of Mosl, when Isis were 397 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: in control of the city, and it was such a 398 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: terrifying place to be because James Foley had been beheaded 399 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: in an orange jump. Student Steven salt Loc and all 400 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: the others that followed right and um and I said, 401 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: we're used. They used propaganda so effectively to strike terror 402 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: in all of our how and so we're in the 403 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: small little villages of of northern Iraq that surround Mosel. 404 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: You could see Mosel, which was just a few miles away, 405 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: and you could see the front lines of ISIS. And 406 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: I was the Kurdish forces who were showing us where, 407 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, I the fighters would come and penetrate the 408 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: lines at night and where they were they were fighting, 409 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: like in the trenches right in front of their positions 410 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: and all of that. And and I went to Christian 411 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: villages and I wanted to be able to say in 412 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: my story how old these villages were. When when did 413 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: the first Christians walk on this ground? So, you know, 414 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: you asked people in the village, everybody gives you a 415 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: different answer. You look it up online, Everyone's got a 416 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: different answer. So I became so frustrated trying to find 417 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: the truth. And so I said, Okay, said to the villages, 418 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: take me to the oldest building in this village. So 419 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: this is northern Iraq, which was ancient Mesopotamia. What do 420 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: you think the oldest building was in the village. I 421 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: can't can't even imagine. And I know it's mentioned multiple 422 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: times in the Old Testament. So three thousand years So 423 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: was it a church? Was it a church? You would 424 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: think maybe a mosque? And you think no, Well, because 425 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, you go to Israel is a long argument 426 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: over who was there first? Right, one of the Palestinian 427 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: church trees? Who was there first? Who does it all 428 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: belong to? Okay, so you go there. It's not the moss, 429 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: it's not the church. It's the synagogue, the oldest building. 430 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: And who takes me there the most of mistake me there? Right, 431 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: it's not Jewish people taking me. There's not Christian people 432 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: taking me there. This is the local Muslims who have 433 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: lived their all their lives and actually never lived anywhere else. 434 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: So then you start to look, well wait a minute, okay, 435 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: so then what is the oldest church and they go 436 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: to the oldest church, and what is the oldest mosque? Well, 437 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: the first mosque was built. The first Muslims never set 438 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: foot on that territory of northern Iraq until more than 439 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: six hundred years after the first after Assyrians converted to 440 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: Christianity as they became the first nation to convert to 441 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: Christianity as a nation. So for six hundred years there 442 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: weren't any Muslims in Iraq in nother I rock on 443 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: that piece of grounds. So think about how they are 444 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: looking at the history. If it takes six hundred years, 445 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: that's you know, that doesn't mean anything to them. They're 446 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: willing to fight for six hundred years. You know. I 447 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: find myself wondering whether we're just talking about the life 448 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: cycle of of peoples and cultures and empires, the move 449 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: from the young, hungry and desperate young historically speaking to 450 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: the successful and established, to the affluent and self indulgent, 451 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: and then it goes away, and there could be nothing 452 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: more natural. You can postponent with an incredibly mighty military, 453 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: I suppose, But um, I just I can't see us 454 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: having having sacrificed notions or at least seen a transition 455 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: of notions from history to immediacy, from duty to to pleasure, 456 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: et cetera. I don't see us as a people thinking 457 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: about our great great great grandchildren in a significant way. 458 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: And I don't know why we don't, because you know, 459 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: as a mother, I look at my children and I 460 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: get sometimes really, I get really you know, anxious and worried. 461 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: And I used to you know, I spent so much 462 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: time on the battlefields and talking to soldiers and especially 463 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, officers or commanders or like group leaders or whatever. 464 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: They would always talk about. I mean, yes, so my 465 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: children don't have to be here. And I used to 466 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: think that that was the hokeyest you know, most um 467 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: made up kind of talking point you could get, right. 468 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,479 Speaker 1: I was like alf a kind in a bucket, seriously, 469 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, and other guys telling me that. And now 470 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: I'm a mom and I'm looking at my kids, and 471 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm looking at where we are in these wars, and 472 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, holy rightly, I mean, on, my children really 473 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: gonna have to tri this? Is that really where we 474 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: are right right? You know? And and to uh the 475 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: question of future um. And we've touched on Libya a 476 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: little bit and um and in the Muslim world and 477 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: transitions and that sort of thing. I think the refugee 478 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: crisis in Europe is the beginning of what could have 479 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: could be one of the great historical twists that will 480 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: happen this millennium. I mean, I don't understand how Europe 481 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: remains Europe for more than I don't know, another half 482 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: century or so. Culturally speaking, well, you know, that is 483 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: a very interesting question. And when you look at the indicators, 484 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: look at Switzerland, Switzerland spanned minarets, the minarets of mosques 485 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: from their landscape, right, because that doesn't fit the image, 486 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: the traditional image of what it means to be Swiss. 487 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: What what defined Switzerland? And many years ago, when I 488 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: was living in London, I remember that curry replaced fish 489 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: and chips as the national dish in England and there 490 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: was an out cry. I mean, you know, it really 491 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: had a real reaction amongst the British people because curry 492 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: became the national dish because more British people were choosing 493 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: to eat curry on a daily basis than fish and chips, right, 494 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: I mean, that became the most popular meals to have. 495 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: And but what it did was demonstrate to British people 496 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: how over time their culture was changing. The difference is 497 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: that when Indian people were emigrating to the UK um 498 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: they were you know, typically there's a high degree of assimilation. 499 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: People hold on to their cultures and their traditions and 500 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. But there was never any 501 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: question about becoming British and redefining what it means to 502 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: be British was part of that but at the end 503 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: of the day it was still not seen as an 504 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: assault on British culture. Fast forward to Belgium and the 505 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: last few elections in Brussels, the capital. There have been 506 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: several districts of Belgium, including the Just Trick where the 507 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: paris Um terrorist attackers came from, where there have only 508 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: been Islamic candidates in local elections, and these candidates have 509 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: all campaigned on a basis of replacing Belgian law with 510 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: Sharia law, but also separating public and private basis right, 511 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: so that in public men and women could not be 512 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: in the same spaces, separating the education systems so boys 513 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: and girls don't go to school together. Well, now you're 514 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: talking about a very dramatic change to traditional Belgian Flemish culture. 515 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: And even you know, going to Germany today, all over Germany, 516 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: even when you land in the airport, there are prayer rooms, 517 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, for and the and the picture the little 518 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: side depicts and it's an Islamic prayer sign the ones 519 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: that I saw um and you wouldn't have seen that 520 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: in Germany, I don't know twenty years ago. I'm not 521 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: exactly sure. So there's those do represent a significant cultural 522 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: ship and Um, I mean that's why a number of 523 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: European countries have started to restrict put restrictions on immigration, 524 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: because they're looking at these questions. The US doesn't face 525 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: those questions yet, right, you know. And you've led us 526 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: beautifully into a conversation we've had many times on the 527 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: radio show, and and that is how do you respond? Well, 528 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: you you listed a number of changes, some of which 529 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: are are merely interesting, some of which are incredibly troubling. 530 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: How do you respond to people who would accuse a 531 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: Belgian of racism or xenophobia for resisting that sort of change? 532 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: How do you how do you defend people's right to 533 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: defend their country and their culture. Well, in the modern 534 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: media narrative, you don't. If you do, you're a racist, 535 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: and um it's hate speech, and you're xenophobic, and um, 536 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: you're you know. I mean that's the realit. You just 537 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: look at today, there's one acceptable narrative for everything, and 538 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: if you go outside of that, you'll get attacked and 539 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: you're denigrated. And I'm not saying that that's my narrative. 540 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: It really doesn't matter if I dare to even say 541 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: to you what I just said to you now I'm 542 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: going to be attacked, right, and I'm going to be 543 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: accused of having that. I was as I was asked recently, 544 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: you know what to what do you attribute this rise 545 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: and populism and nationalism? And I said, I'm not really sure. 546 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: And I said, in modern political terms, I guess you 547 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: could call it a rise. I said, but when you 548 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: look at the world, to me, it's one of the oldest. 549 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: As long as human beings have been on the earth, 550 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: they have gravitated towards their own kind. Now that doesn't 551 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: mean that you get to discriminate or you know, or 552 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: or um or torture or murder or or you know, 553 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: do anything bad to other people just because they're different. 554 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: Vikings typically stuck to other vikings, right, I mean, you 555 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: look at the tribes in Africa. Typically the tribes in Africa, 556 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: they didn't you don't have Tutus and Zulus historically crossing 557 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: the lines unless they were strategic marriages. What how did 558 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: your what was Europe really by the collection of tribes? 559 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: And um, you know, Catholics they like to marry other Catholics. 560 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: So I'm not spending that as a as a principle. 561 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: All I'm doing is pointing out that it's a very 562 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: human quality and what you're what you see when people 563 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: feel that they're disappearing, that their culture is disappearing, or 564 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 1: that they're becoming a minority in their own land. They 565 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: expressed that in different ways. And what the point we've 566 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: reached today is where you're not allowed to have a 567 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: conversation about that, or a legitimate conversation or an honest conversation, 568 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: because you're instantly denigrated for doing so. Like some of 569 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: those people may choose make may may make very destructive, 570 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: very bad choices that you or I might not agree 571 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: with at all. But what what you're asking is, how 572 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: do you have that conversation? To me, the absolute heart 573 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: and essence of freedom and liberty is having that conversation 574 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: and having the ability to say to someone I agree 575 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: with you, I don't agree with you. Oh I see, 576 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about it that way. Well, from your 577 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: point of view, I understand, but I still don't agree 578 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: with you, right, Or maybe I do, or maybe I 579 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: maybe I agree a little bit more than I did before. 580 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you know, I'm 581 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: still gonna take a different position or whatever it happens 582 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: to be. You know, it's not up to us to 583 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: decide the outcome of the conversation and advance as so, 584 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: since we're on this subject um a lot of these 585 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: predominantly almost entirely Muslim countries. Getting back to Afghanistan, that 586 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: laundry list of violence that I mentioned that it has 587 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: happened just in the last three or four days, how 588 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: much of that has to do with Islam? Like I 589 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: I it's it's interesting if my neighborhood becomes less Christian 590 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: and more Muslim or more Jewish or whatever. But as 591 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: long as nobody's hurting me, it doesn't really make any 592 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: difference to me. But how much of the violence in 593 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: the killing, in the zero sum game is tied into 594 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: Islam as you see it traveling around these countries, Well, 595 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: that's a complex question and ruins careers. So you just 596 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,719 Speaker 1: weighed right in. I mean, I don't you know, as 597 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: you might have noticed, I don't really worry. I mean 598 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: I should worry about earning my career. But I just, um, 599 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: I just them to direct into um straightforward and too 600 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: honest to you know, to be political. It's just not 601 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: in my DNA. I mean what I what I would say, 602 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: what I've seen on the ground in many different Islamic 603 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: countries is that it's ties. The religion is part of 604 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: culture in many places, and so you know you have 605 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: Afghanistan is a very different Islamic country to Malaysia, right, 606 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,959 Speaker 1: I mean, um, there are some things that are similar 607 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of things that are very different. 608 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: If you people used to ask me the same question 609 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: about Africa, you know, why are Africans so violent? Are 610 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: they really more violent um than people here? Or do they? 611 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: They just live at the edge of survival. And when 612 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: you live in that place, um, your choices are much 613 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: more stock and you may be resolved more easily to violent. 614 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: I hate it when people say to me, oh, they 615 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: don't they don't value life the way we do. And 616 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 1: I also hate it when people say everyone's the same 617 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: all of the world, we don't want the same things, 618 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: because I don't think. I don't think either of those 619 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: I have not experienced either of those things to hold true. Um. 620 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: I find people who value life the same way as 621 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: me and every place on earth, and the same way 622 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: as Americans. That don't mean me as a guy, that 623 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: just be the way the way we do in the 624 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: US and I found people who don't, and I can 625 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: I can show you people who definitely do not want 626 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: the same things as you and I right, because I 627 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: don't want my child. I don't dream of my child 628 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: growing up to be a suicide bomber and think that 629 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: that's going to bring glory to my family. And that 630 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: is a a real thing. There are people who feel 631 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: that way. What I will say, though, is that people 632 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: have experienced, oh wait, all over the earth, that religion 633 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: and God are very powerful recruiting tools. And they're very 634 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: powerful tools. So the first thing that you should know, though, 635 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: is that Islamic terrorists and jahadists and converts, and that 636 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: who I have met over the years, many of them, 637 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: they've all corrected me when I've said Islam is a religion. 638 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,439 Speaker 1: They all tell me that Islam is a civilization. It's 639 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: not a religion, and that part of our problem is 640 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: that we look at it as a religion. And so 641 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: that's a very interesting shift in your in your perspective 642 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: when you approach these things. You know, and what a 643 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: civilization does is it prescribes rules for every part of 644 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: your life. So it's it's an instrument of enormous control. 645 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: And I guess the way I best answer the question 646 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: to people is I say, show me an Islamic country 647 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: where you believe your children will have a better way 648 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: of life than the one they do share, right right, 649 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: It's it's a point well made. I'm so annoyed by 650 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: the naivete. And and well, we'll stick with the naivete 651 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: for the moment. But of of a lot of people 652 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: in the American political scene who think that Islam is 653 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: the same as Presbyterianism um and and not only that, 654 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: but they have what I've characterized as xenophilia. They have 655 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: this desperate need to seem enlightened by embracing that which 656 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: is foreign. And while I'm certainly in no xenophobe, I 657 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: think you'd have to be so misguided by your ideology 658 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: to be half blind to not recognize that there are places, 659 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: there are cultures, there are beliefs that are toxic, that 660 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: yield poorer results in terms of humanity, and and to 661 00:36:54,560 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: embrace them automatically because they're not white American Christian. Yeah. Well, 662 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, I would say I'm a very I'm a 663 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: very open and tallerant person. You know, I grew up 664 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: I didn't eat meet I was against the fur trade. Well, 665 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't eat meat until there was nothing 666 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,479 Speaker 1: else to eat, right until I was in a village 667 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: where that's all there was to eat, and I was 668 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: really hungry. And then I learned, you know, to to 669 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: eat whatever was available. I didn't believe in the fur 670 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: in wearing furst. I protested that when I was a kid, 671 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: until I was in Siberia with the chukche and I 672 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: had been cold for six weeks and an old chookche 673 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: man put a fur coat on me. And it was 674 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: the first time the wind stopped and I had I 675 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: could feel my limbs right or I was standing in 676 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: an abandoned fox farm and a little chook che lady 677 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: was coming to feed the dying boxes every day. Put 678 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: a little fox hat on my head, and and then 679 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: I so and then I was asked, you know, by sidebarians, 680 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: by the chook she there where all these people that 681 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: shut down the fur industry, Like this little lady, this 682 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: little chukche, she's coming there every day. She's feeding these 683 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: animals which are in cages dyeing. Okay, and where where 684 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: all the people who are congratulating themselves in New York? 685 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: And you know Paris and London and l A because 686 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: they've shut down the fur trade on their great victory. 687 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 1: So what what I have been lucky enough to do 688 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: and what I have sought out just to try? Why 689 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: do you have to be there in person? Why do 690 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: I go to all these horrible places? Why do I stay? 691 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: I stay five years in Bagdad, right, I didn't go home, 692 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: and when I left there, I would go to Afghanistan 693 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: or to Darfur. Why is it so important to have 694 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: reporters who spend time in these places and don't just 695 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: fly in and out. Because with time, when you live 696 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: and walk in the shoes of those people, you learn 697 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: things and understand things. I mean, I loved living in Iraq. 698 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: It's not what I would want for my children, but 699 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: there were so many things I love about the people 700 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: and the place and the and the history and the 701 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: things that I learned. And what I learned is not 702 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: to abandon every principle I ever had. You know, what 703 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: I learned was which principles really added and how what 704 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: not being judgmental rarely means? Right? What listening to someone 705 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: rarely means. I had to do that in South Africa, 706 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: where I couldn't stand anything to do with the extreme 707 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: white right, and I grew up in a very liberal 708 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: home and I and I fought for the end of 709 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: a party and I believed in it. But I still 710 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: had to go into those areas as a journalists and say, Okay, 711 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: what's your perspective, what's your opinion, and put that out 712 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: because every if you say that, you believe in in 713 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: in being tolerant and being open and trying to understand 714 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: so you can find common ground, or you can find compromise, 715 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: or you can find a way to live together. That's 716 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: what I grew up believing you had to do. So 717 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: I say that because I want you know, it's really 718 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: important for me for that people understand. Is if if 719 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: people choose to live that way, you know, in wherever 720 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: it happens to be, that's fine for like for me, 721 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: I don't have any issues with that. But I'm very 722 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: clear on why life I want for my daughter and 723 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: want life I want as a woman. And I don't 724 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: want to be fighting for the right to have a 725 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: driver's license and drive a car and be celebrating that 726 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: as a victory. Okay, that's not a victory. I mean 727 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: it is a victory, of course, But for me personally 728 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: with the freedoms that I have known and enjoyed in 729 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: my life and what I want for my children and 730 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: my grandchildren. That's not a victory, right, And so what 731 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: I I, what I just don't understand is how we 732 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: got to this point where, you know, you know, how 733 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: we get there? We get there by saying, oh, this 734 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: isn't a war about religion, Well, what nonsense is that? 735 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: Then you're ignoring of what these people themselves are saying. 736 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: You're right in one sense though, it's actually a war 737 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,359 Speaker 1: about power, where the people waging this war, who want 738 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: absolute power, who want to annihilate everybody who's not like them, 739 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: have very successfully and artfully used religion to give their 740 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: struggle and their fights feels authority, the moral authority of God, 741 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: and that takes men into battle, It recruits people, It 742 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: gets be able to give up their lives as doctors. 743 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: It gives us their comfortable lives and comfortable countries. That's 744 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: what it does. That's how powerful it is. So when 745 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: we stand up and say, oh, this isn't a word 746 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: about religion, it's got nothing to do with it. And 747 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, anyone who criticizes or brings religion into it 748 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: is some kind of racist, xenophobic, you know, nasty person. Well, 749 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: all you're doing is save them if you might, as 750 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: you're bending over saying, how else can I help you win? 751 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: What else would you like me to do? In the 752 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: time we have left? If you don't mind, let's talk 753 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 1: a little bit about a little more about your job 754 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: and how you do it and how you see it, 755 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: and if you don't mind, starting with one of my 756 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: favorite books that have had the great pleasure of being 757 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: able to discuss with my kids, who are now mostly 758 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: grown up, the things they carried by Tim O'Brien. I 759 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: assume you're are you familiar with that at all? It's 760 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: it's a story, it's a collection the stories about Vietnam. Well, 761 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: the theme of the book is he served in Vietnam 762 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: and writes these incredibly harrowing, beautiful, moving stories about Vietnam. 763 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: But one of the themes of the book is that 764 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: he's not writing factually. He it is fictionalized because there's 765 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: no way to convey the fact without fictionalizing it. You 766 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: can't in your armchair understand what it was like unless 767 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: I fictionalize it, which is, you know, it's an interesting 768 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: notion and I wonder if you ever, as a war correspondent, 769 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: witness things that are practically indescribable, and if you ever 770 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: feel like the way I'm about to describe them can't 771 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: convey the reality. Well, you know, my mother always is 772 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: to say that life is stranger than fiction, right, and 773 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: I think it's true. I'll tell you a funny story 774 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: to illustrate this point. A friend of mine was one 775 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,399 Speaker 1: of the very senior commanders in southern afghanist and under 776 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: the Search led by M. Crystal, and he sent me 777 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: an email the one day from the battlefield which I 778 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: actually had to like stop in my tracks. I was 779 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. And when I read this, I thought, 780 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: oh my word. He said he was working with the 781 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: local police in Kandahar and they got called to a 782 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: checkpoint where they believed there was a a vehicle born 783 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: I d so a suicide car bomb, and the Afghan 784 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,280 Speaker 1: police and then they had surrounded it, and the Afghans 785 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: wanted to deal with it because they wanted to demonstrate 786 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: to the Americans that they could handle this situation. So 787 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: they got a line of Afghan policemen to stand up 788 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: next to each other and they all opened fire with 789 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: their a K four seven on the suspected car bomb. 790 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,879 Speaker 1: So needless to say, that's not how an American unit 791 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: would approach it. But um, they all managed to miss 792 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: the vehicle, no bullets hit it, and one bullet hit 793 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: the ground ricochet. There was a tree above the car 794 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: bumb It hits the Taliban trigger man who was in 795 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: the tree, who then fell to the ground, and when 796 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: he hit the ground, he activated the detonator that was 797 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: in his hand, and the car bomb exploded, and all 798 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: the Afghans split the checkpoint because they told the Americans 799 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: that exploding mullas were falling out of the sky. Does 800 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: that illustrate your point? Uh? On the x x X, 801 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: you know, evening news, we bring you the sale of 802 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: exploding mullas. You know you just can't do that, you know, 803 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: I mean, but I would say, Look, I'm a person 804 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: who my feet are very firmly planted on the ground. 805 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm not a dreamer. I'm not the great, you know, 806 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 1: I'm not the Elon Musk, but looking into the future 807 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: and changing the world, I'm I'm a person that gives 808 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: everything to the moment and to the people around me, 809 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: and to the things that I'm doing. I know what's 810 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: real and what's not. And that's my greatest guide as 811 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,360 Speaker 1: a journalist. I don't know everything, and of course I 812 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: make mistakes, and sometimes famously so. But um but what 813 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: I do know is when you build up knowledge and 814 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: experience over time, your you strengthen your bullshit meta, right, 815 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: And and that's why beat reporting is so, so so important. 816 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: And I just I want to tell you one other 817 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,959 Speaker 1: thing about Vietnam because I had a very very close 818 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: friend of mine was a man called Tom o'camo. And 819 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: in the intelligence world, that name means more than most 820 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: in the history of US military intelligence. And this is 821 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: a person who's, you know, whose career went back many 822 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 1: many years. In fact, he's the regarded as the father 823 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 1: of the modern military intelligence infrastructure that we still use today. 824 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: And Tom is now buried in Arlington Cemetery. But one 825 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: of the last lunch that he and I had together 826 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: at the Army and Navy Club, he told me a 827 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: story about going to Vietnam as a young soldier. He 828 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: was in college and he left and he went to 829 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: go fight, and he said two things that shocked me. 830 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: I asked him, why to the green berets Okay, American 831 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,360 Speaker 1: Green Berets Special Forces to go to their headquarters in 832 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: Fort Brand, North Carolina. In front of their headquarters is 833 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 1: a huge statue of Bronze Bruce and Bronze Bruce is 834 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,760 Speaker 1: an SF soldier in Vietnam with his hand out holding 835 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,399 Speaker 1: the hand of a young Montagnard child. And Montagnards were 836 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: a local tribe, if you like, in Vietnam, that were 837 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: in Cabotia that we're working with the Americans, and in 838 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,839 Speaker 1: fact became a very potent local force in the Vietnam War. 839 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: And I said, I don't understand why, why would the 840 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 1: Green Berets take a symbol like that to represent all 841 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: of them, Because to us, that's a symbol of abject failure. 842 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: No greater failure in US military history. Right, is the 843 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: Vietnam War a gain? I don't get it. And he said, 844 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: you know, the war on the ground had changed so 845 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: significantly by the time they made the US made the 846 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: political decision to pull out and withdraw. He said, we 847 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: had just turned the time between the relationship with the Montagnards. 848 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 1: It took that length of time to build up a 849 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: formidable fighting force that was local and could work on 850 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 1: both sides of the border, and it had just really 851 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: started to pay dividends. Plus they had a program of 852 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: turning prisoners inside the prisons, and that program had had 853 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: enough time now to really bear fruits. He said. But 854 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,400 Speaker 1: the politics is rarely in line with the military reality 855 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: on the ground, right, And so he said, just at 856 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: the moment that the US political reality was, you know, 857 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,880 Speaker 1: meant that we were pulling out, was when we fighting 858 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: on the ground, felt that we had turned, we were 859 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: turning that either of the war. Now, that may or 860 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: may not be true. It's one man's perspective, and he was. 861 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: He was a soldier on the ground at the time, 862 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: and you know, and father the systems that you see 863 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 1: in place today, So a formidable individual. The second thing 864 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,959 Speaker 1: he said was when I came home to the US 865 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,320 Speaker 1: after being gone for all those years, I didn't recognize 866 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: the country I came home to. Suddenly people in the 867 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: corridors at my college were smoking marijuana, was drugs and 868 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,720 Speaker 1: tex everywhere, And he said, I didn't even know this place, 869 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: you know, And we might laugh and say, oh, well, 870 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, those are all good positive changes, right, Drugs 871 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: and tex and you know, free love and woodstock and 872 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: hippies and all approaches me in Vietnam. But what it 873 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,400 Speaker 1: meant to me was, how can I know so little 874 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: about this period that's been written about so much? And 875 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 1: how many perspectives have we rarely explored? Or do we 876 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 1: just read the same perspective over and over again in 877 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: many different forms? Wow? Wow, Yeah, that is so thought provoking. Boy, 878 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: I have no doubt that your feet are planted firmly 879 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 1: on the ground. I don't see how anybody could have 880 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: had the career you've had, lived the life you've lived 881 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:16,959 Speaker 1: and not be pretty firmly or in touch with human 882 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: nature and what human beings are capable of. I think 883 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: the opposite would be the bigger problem. How do you 884 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 1: how do you keep your head out of the oven? 885 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: How do you? How do you succumbed to discourage? Yeah? Exactly? 886 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: You never do you never ever? Ever? Do you know why? 887 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: Because for every nasty, horrible person I've ever met, I 888 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,719 Speaker 1: have had that moment you know, um, where I'm a 889 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: very I'm a very warm person and um and I 890 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: have great respect for the people and the places where 891 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,840 Speaker 1: I go. And respect is one of those things that 892 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: you cannot fake. You might get away with it for 893 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: a moment here in there. But it doesn't matter whether 894 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: people speak in a language, or they dressed in rags, 895 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,279 Speaker 1: or they dressed in you know, a dishdasha, or in 896 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: Muslim robes or in you know, in whatever, in American 897 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,879 Speaker 1: blue jeans. People know when you're real, They know when 898 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,800 Speaker 1: you truly respect him, They know when you're being honest. 899 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: And and I have never promised more than I can give. 900 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: So for me, I believe. I just believe um in 901 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: the in the good that people can be when we're 902 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: at our best. I believe in that, and I've seen it, 903 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,800 Speaker 1: and I've seen it sometimes, you know, just in in 904 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 1: the person that you know that just lost their family, 905 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,279 Speaker 1: all their whole family in the bombing that day. You know, 906 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: I've seen it in in like being in a hospital 907 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: with kids with minded to send burns all over their bodies, 908 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,320 Speaker 1: and seeing the nurse that doesn't leave their side, that 909 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: you never hear about, his name, you never know about 910 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't even matter. And she's one of many. I 911 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 1: meet those people all the time, and I believe in them. 912 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:12,359 Speaker 1: Final question, what would you like to do next? Professionally speaking? Well, 913 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,919 Speaker 1: place Alixtra back now, I just say that because Edison, 914 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:21,520 Speaker 1: people with jobs. I don't even know if it's worth 915 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: it anymore. Like, seriously, all this, all this, you know, 916 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: all the attacks and the way we we get um silence. 917 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: Really you know what what I would like? Gosh, but 918 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 1: I would really like most of all. It's not so 919 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,360 Speaker 1: much what I want to do next. I I wonder 920 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:45,800 Speaker 1: how many Jamas today truly have a free voice? What 921 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,000 Speaker 1: are the things we can't talk about? Interesting we are 922 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,080 Speaker 1: not allowed to say? What are the subjects we're not 923 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,399 Speaker 1: allowed to explore? There shouldn't be any Why are there any? 924 00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,960 Speaker 1: What I would like next, not just for me, but 925 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,879 Speaker 1: for all of for you, for for every I would 926 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,360 Speaker 1: like real journalism not to die. I would like the 927 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 1: true meaning of freedom to come back to the streets 928 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 1: of the US. I would like we're already pretty militant 929 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,240 Speaker 1: on the idea of defending the free exchange of ideas, 930 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,520 Speaker 1: and you have re energized us, and we thank you 931 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,880 Speaker 1: for that. But look at where we are. This is 932 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: the age of information warfare. Okay, so now companies are 933 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: deciding what's free speech and what's not. They're redefining the 934 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: First Amendment. Who gets to define the First Amendment? Isn't 935 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't the whole point of the individual freedom, but 936 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,720 Speaker 1: as long as they don't infinge on the rights of others, 937 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,239 Speaker 1: And who are the people making these decisions? And I'll 938 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: give you just a stupid example. We're having a long 939 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 1: conversation about Facebook and Russia. Really really, we're not talking 940 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,239 Speaker 1: about all of the other countries doing the same thing. 941 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: We're not to talking about data mining, Like why does 942 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: any apps in the background, Why they're refreshing in the background, 943 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: what are they doing? They're they're minding your data. Who's 944 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,759 Speaker 1: paying for that? You're paying for it, You are paying 945 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,000 Speaker 1: for it. Why are you paying for all of these 946 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:20,320 Speaker 1: companies and political organizations and so called civil liberties organizations 947 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,319 Speaker 1: and all of them. They're all minding your data all 948 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: the time, and you're paying for it, and nobody's paying you. 949 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: And yet we have a one sided conversation about one 950 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:34,880 Speaker 1: company and one country. It just said, we're dumb. Our 951 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,080 Speaker 1: primary problem, Laura, is that we're we're dumb. We're dumb. 952 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:44,319 Speaker 1: People were not serious. It's not true. We're overwhelming. True, 953 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,680 Speaker 1: I don't believe it. And we are we're asleep at 954 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 1: the wheel. There you go, how yeah, yeah, we're we're 955 00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: as a society and we're we're self indulgent and we're 956 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,799 Speaker 1: amusing ourselves to death. And that's a different giant topic. 957 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,960 Speaker 1: But I've never heard a conversation with you or any 958 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 1: any piece you did that I didn't think was fantastic. 959 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: And to appreciate the opportunity we got to talk to 960 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,319 Speaker 1: you for quite a while today. Yeah, it's it's great. 961 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,799 Speaker 1: Love you guys. I love that you want to talk 962 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: about these things. But the only thing I would say 963 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,719 Speaker 1: is don't fall for that thing that we're dumb. You know. 964 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,279 Speaker 1: I used to get that all the time at work. 965 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,400 Speaker 1: People say, oh, well, our audience won't understand. Really, you 966 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,319 Speaker 1: know what, people really they understand more than uh than 967 00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 1: we think they understand. When you say this tourist organization 968 00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,480 Speaker 1: has battalions all over the world, and if we don't 969 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:30,399 Speaker 1: do something about it, we're gonna pay for it down 970 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,360 Speaker 1: the line. That's very simple. Or they say, oh no, no, 971 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,239 Speaker 1: don't worry not din't none. I'm connected all these little 972 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,200 Speaker 1: groups they're meaningless and we don't have to worry about them. Okay, 973 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,279 Speaker 1: but then we don't have to worry about them, you know. 974 00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,080 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a simple way to put any 975 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,360 Speaker 1: thing that we need, any arguments, and anything that we 976 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 1: really need to pay attention to. It's what we're not 977 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,480 Speaker 1: doing is we're not holding ourselves accountable, and we're not 978 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: holding our lead is accountable for the lack of freedom 979 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,480 Speaker 1: that we have today. We're not doing any about that. 980 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: We've given up our privacy and we've surrendered it, and 981 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: and what else have we given up? Those are the 982 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,600 Speaker 1: questions we need to ask. All right, we're not dumb 983 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,640 Speaker 1: as much as we're seduced. Yeah, yeah, Well, next time 984 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,919 Speaker 1: we talk, if you're ever so generous with your time again, 985 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: we could spend an hour on turkey. I would love 986 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,319 Speaker 1: to talk turkey with you, no pun intended. Hum oh man, 987 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: that's talking about pivotal places. Uh, Laura Logan. It's always great. 988 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: Thank you so much anytime. Thank you. And that's the 989 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,760 Speaker 1: end of the official thing. And so thanks a Milian. 990 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,239 Speaker 1: It's great to talk and thanks for persevering. We know, 991 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: technically speaking, it wasn't you know, effortless. Thanks a lot. Oh, 992 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,680 Speaker 1: you have no idea. I'm at like the side of 993 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: the road in a tiny little town in it's pitched out. 994 00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:50,920 Speaker 1: We had like a six hour drive ahead of My 995 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:55,000 Speaker 1: children are bleeding out their eyeballs. Oh my god, great, Scott, Yeah, 996 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: well hang up right now, Yeah, okay, all right, we'll 997 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: talk again. Thanks. I'm gonna start an equivalent of a 998 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,440 Speaker 1: McDonald's on steroids. And I'm just happy it was no 999 00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 1: one's birthday. Every speaker in the place, Oh my god, 1000 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 1: that's awesome. That's great. All right, we'll talk to you 1001 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,959 Speaker 1: in Thanks, thank you. Keep it roll, Keep it rolling, Michael. 1002 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,800 Speaker 1: I want to continue the conversation from there. Um, So 1003 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: you know what she was just talking about there, about 1004 00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:23,960 Speaker 1: her The one thing that she could do is bring 1005 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,640 Speaker 1: back press freedom. I'll tell you during that conversation I 1006 00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,840 Speaker 1: felt in the room the things I can say and 1007 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 1: can't say. Absolutely. There is one period in there, something 1008 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,839 Speaker 1: about you know, Islam being the cause of this. Whatever 1009 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: I thought is it's gonna get us in trouble. I 1010 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 1: was just gonna about her and us, And she's absolutely right. 1011 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,960 Speaker 1: If we're in a place where we can't have a 1012 00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,480 Speaker 1: conversation about what role does Islam play in this without 1013 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:53,320 Speaker 1: being scared, we are freaking doomed. Yeah. And and not 1014 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,560 Speaker 1: to get off, you know, to completely on the free 1015 00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 1: speech thing and the free exchange of ideas thing. But 1016 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,239 Speaker 1: you must absolutely have the right to be wrong if 1017 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 1: there's going to be free exchange of ideas, and you 1018 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: must permit somebody to be wrong without, for instance, smashing 1019 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: them in the head um as as a number of 1020 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 1: people are are want to do these days. And you 1021 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,120 Speaker 1: have to have to have to be able to confront 1022 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,520 Speaker 1: things that make you very uncomfortable. It's like, you know, 1023 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:30,320 Speaker 1: the First Amendment exists to protect objectionable speech, unpopular speech. 1024 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 1: The only ideas that need protection are the ones that 1025 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: make people mad. I came across this quote the other 1026 00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 1: day and make I'm sorry, that make you feel uncomfortable, 1027 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: that trigger you, Those are precisely the ideas that need 1028 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,440 Speaker 1: to be protected. I came across this quote the other 1029 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: day from John milton um and it uh from years ago. Anyway, 1030 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,280 Speaker 1: air of opinion may be tolerated where reason is free 1031 00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,880 Speaker 1: to combat it. Yeah, well said and more pithy than me. 1032 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,560 Speaker 1: And that's what we need. We need to to be 1033 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:04,560 Speaker 1: able to have these guys at least say them out 1034 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,600 Speaker 1: loud and and bounce around. You think this is any 1035 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,120 Speaker 1: think this is that, you think Islam is this? But 1036 00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,400 Speaker 1: what do you think people think this is ruining society, 1037 00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,160 Speaker 1: having these people going to we ought to be able 1038 00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,200 Speaker 1: to have that conversation and then be wrong about it 1039 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,600 Speaker 1: if reason is there to compete against. But if you're 1040 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,040 Speaker 1: not allowed to even have the conversation, to even start 1041 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,440 Speaker 1: down that road, we're freaking doomed. Yeah, I'm pretty sure 1042 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,240 Speaker 1: it was. Thomas Oo said beautifully and succinctly, and I'm 1043 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:29,600 Speaker 1: going to slaughter it now that it is borderline mental 1044 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: illness to deny that there are some cultures on earth 1045 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 1: that are better and some worse at yielding happy, healthy 1046 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: human beings. To deny that reality is bizarre. I mean, 1047 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,880 Speaker 1: it's indefensible. And yet there are a lot of people 1048 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,000 Speaker 1: who speak very very loudly on the modern American and 1049 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: European for them matter, political scene who want to deny 1050 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,000 Speaker 1: that reality and that that, by the way, that reality 1051 00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:01,720 Speaker 1: does not justify racism or hate or vilence or denying 1052 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: people are constitutional rights. I mean, that's that's an idiocy 1053 00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: in and of itself, But you must accept that is true, 1054 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,960 Speaker 1: or my god, how do we talk about this stuff? 1055 00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:12,400 Speaker 1: I was sure as hell is going to bring this 1056 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: up during our interview with her. I mean, it's a 1057 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: well known story. But when she says, I have my 1058 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: firm my feet firmly on the ground, Yeah, you get 1059 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 1: gang raped by a bunch of crazies in a square 1060 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:27,280 Speaker 1: in Egypt, you would have a pretty solid idea of 1061 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,440 Speaker 1: what you know humanity is all about. She's riding no 1062 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: unicorns over no rainbows. Yeah, well that was good stuff. 1063 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 1: That was fun. Yeah, I just I wish I this 1064 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,880 Speaker 1: is me. This is a problem with me that when 1065 00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,919 Speaker 1: I talked to somebody like that, I feel like I've 1066 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: messed up my life somehow. Because God, to have the 1067 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,440 Speaker 1: experiences she's had around the world, she would have been 1068 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:56,320 Speaker 1: that top tier of percentage of people who really know 1069 00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,840 Speaker 1: what humanity is, has seen it. I've read about a 1070 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:02,840 Speaker 1: lot of it, but I ain't seen it up close. 1071 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,880 Speaker 1: You know. I almost brought up one place I had been, 1072 01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,040 Speaker 1: but then I thought, no, that's gonna sound like I'm 1073 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: trying to sound like, well wait a minute, because but 1074 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,480 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be self conscious, because that's never mind with it, 1075 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Because I mean, she's and I say this lovingly, and 1076 01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:23,360 Speaker 1: I love Laura's intellect, So I'm in love with her intellect. 1077 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:27,480 Speaker 1: When she was talking about being with the various people 1078 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,760 Speaker 1: in Siberia. It sounded just like j Peterman from the 1079 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:39,000 Speaker 1: Seinfeld name. There I was squatting with them. But yeah, 1080 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,600 Speaker 1: the breadth of her travel and how she stays in 1081 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,040 Speaker 1: one place and and and mind melds with the humans there, 1082 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,920 Speaker 1: I think, is so the partners so important and so powerful. 1083 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,360 Speaker 1: And I was going to bring this up, but then 1084 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: I started to think, is my goal here to like 1085 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:56,960 Speaker 1: make her cry? What are my Barbara Walters here now? 1086 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,320 Speaker 1: Or um? But the to me, the hardest part would be, 1087 01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,640 Speaker 1: um just meeting the regular people and you get to 1088 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,080 Speaker 1: know them a little bit, and there you know their 1089 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:08,680 Speaker 1: lives sucking are going to continue to suck by, you know, 1090 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,600 Speaker 1: just just that's just the way it is. And you'd 1091 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,200 Speaker 1: think for them, for that guy, her and those two kids, 1092 01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:20,320 Speaker 1: the tectonic plates of civilization and these major political movements 1093 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 1: don't freaking mean anything. They're just trying to keep their 1094 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,960 Speaker 1: kids alive and survive. And you know that would be 1095 01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:32,320 Speaker 1: the tough stuff anyway, owing to boys. So uh yeah, 1096 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: So that's Laura Logan were talking to Next time for 1097 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,760 Speaker 1: our long form podcast, I believe we've got who's the 1098 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:44,680 Speaker 1: Mike Rodgers, former chairman the guy that played the Incredible Hulk. 1099 01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,360 Speaker 1: Isn't that who we have? So look for to that 1100 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 1: for our next long form podcast, The Armstrong and Getty Show.