1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Buffy Saint Marie was never a household name in 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: the US, but if you ask her peers, she probably 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: should have been. She was a pioneering artist in the 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: Greenwich Village folk scene, playing alongside people like Bob Dylan. 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: She even helped give Joni Mitchell her start. But in 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: the early days of Vietnam, when Buffy was singing protest 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: songs about the casualties of war, she was blacklisted by 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: the US government. Her music was barely played on radio, 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: but she still found an audience. Her classic songs like 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: Universal Soldier have been covered by Elvis Presley, Barbara streisand 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: Courtney Love Morrissey, and she was the first Native woman 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: to win an Academy Award, though she's probably best remembered 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: by Americans for her controversial stint on Sesame Street, where 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: she taught the cast about her indigenous heritage and Big 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: Bird about breastfeeding. Today, at seventy nine year old, Buffy 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: still active. She had a robust touring schedule until, of course, 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: this year. Now she's just at home in Hawaii, where 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: she met up with the Rick Rubin. They talk about 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: her blacklisting and why she wrote a song about coding 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: long before any Southern rapper ever did. This is broken 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. 22 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin and Buffy Saint Marie. I want to 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: start by talking about what the world was like when 24 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: you started making music. What was the original motivation, what 25 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: maybe you start doing this? What was the culture like? 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: I had no choice. I was living in an adoptive 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: family in Maine and Massachusetts. You were born in Canada, Yes, 28 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: maybe I think I was, but I was adopted, so 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: you don't really know. So you don't you don't think 30 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: of yourself as Canadian. I think of myself as indigenous 31 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: North American, and indigenous people in North we predate those borders. 32 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Those borders haven't been around very long. And although most 33 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: Americans would not know, probably a lot of Canadians would 34 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: know about the Jay Treaty, for instance, which means that 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: you know, we can just go back and forth, that 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: we don't need no passport. But most of the guys 37 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: at the porter don't know that. So as as as 38 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: an indigenous person in the Americas, you not only have 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: the world be the way that it is, which is 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: tough for everybody, but also you get another little set 41 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: of challenges in that most of the other people don't 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: know about you yourself. You're such a small minority. I mean, 43 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: there are so few people of Native American background in 44 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: show business. I mean there's you know, like Burt Reynolds is, oh, well, 45 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: I'm one eighth Cherokee, and my you know, some other 46 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: celebrities like oah, my grandmother was a Cherokee princess, blah blah. 47 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: But when it comes to real Native American people who 48 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: have no choice and just there's no alternative to being 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: an Indian. However you call us, and by the way, 50 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: we all say Indian, Native American, indigenous week most of 51 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: us use it interchangeably. How old we when you were adopted? 52 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: That baby? They don't tell you. Adoptive children have a 53 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: lot of problems that most people have never thought about. 54 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: You don't get a horoscope, you don't know when you 55 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: were born, you don't know where you were born. You 56 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: have a birthday assigned by the court, so you never 57 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: really know who you are. You know, in the cases 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: of most marginalized kids come from a marginalized community, you 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: don't really know. So I was about three and my 60 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: family got a piano and a great piano, So that 61 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: became like my toy. That's what I did instead of 62 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: sports and Barbie dolls and things. And what was the 63 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: music going on at that time, Like what were you hearing? Well, 64 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: anything that my parents would have on the radio or 65 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: records that they were had around. So somewhere along the line, 66 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: I discovered Tchaikovsky and I loved that. I used to 67 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: listen to Swan Lake and Nutcracker Swede and this thing 68 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: called in a Persian Market and whenever would come on 69 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: the radio, and I just taught myself how to play 70 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: and just because it was so much fun. And I 71 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 1: never could learn how to read music. So it's taken 72 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: me all these years. And just a few years ago 73 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: I found out I'm actually dyslexic in music, which I 74 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: had never heard of. Yea, yeah, so there are a 75 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: lot of There are a lot of people who come 76 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: to music not through the path of music teachers. Yeah. Yeah. 77 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: What's the first time you ever played in front of people? 78 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: In the summertime, I used to go over to a 79 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: state park and I used to sit around a campfire 80 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: with everybody else and play songs that I'd written, and 81 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, Everly Brothers hits and you know, Fast Domino. 82 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: This was in the fifties, so you asked about, you know, 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: what kind of music influenced me. That's what it was. 84 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: I heard CLA six as a child or whatever happened 85 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: to be on the radio, which was, you know, kind 86 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: of Frank Sinandre era. And then when I really fell 87 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: in love with music was when I was about I 88 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: must have been eleven or twelve or thirteen, and I 89 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: used to go down in the basement and I was 90 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be ironing my school clothes, but I discovered 91 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: I discovered rockabilly music on the radio. So Kyle Perkins, 92 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: Scottie Moore, they were just my heroes. And I was 93 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: also lucky enough. I was living in Maine and Massachusetts, 94 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: and I used to get on a train and go 95 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: to New York. I had a friend that I had 96 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: met in Maine at a state park, and he would 97 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: he invited me to his house, and you know, all 98 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: our mother's in agreement. It was those days, and we 99 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: used to go to Allen Freed rock and Roll Show. 100 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: And then the Allen Freed rock and Roll Show started 101 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: coming to Boston as well, so I went there, so 102 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: I used to see people like Joanne Campbell. Nobody's ever 103 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: heard of Joanne Campbell. Oh, shame on you. Oh man, 104 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: she was hot. I mean she was. She and the 105 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: Platters I think were the only women. You know, the 106 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: Platters there was one woman. Oh and Laverne Baker. They 107 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: were the only women. But it was Jerry Lee Lewis, 108 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: Fats Domino, the Everly Brothers and Frankie Lyman. He just 109 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: play a handful of songs. Yes you got it. Yeah, 110 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: they play maybe two or three songs and then next 111 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was great. It was just such 112 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: a thrill. I knew that that's where I wanted to 113 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: be in the audience, on the stage, backstage. I didn't 114 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: carry just wanted to be around the music. Would you 115 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: say at that time, we're all kids into it? Or 116 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: was it? No? So what again? Like more like what 117 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: was the world? What was the world like? Then? Like? Um? 118 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: Were would you? Would you say you were unusual for 119 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: being in that group of people. I wasn't in a 120 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: group of people, which was pretty standard for me because, 121 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: like I said, I lived in two different places. I 122 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: lived in maineand Massachusetts, so um, I didn't really have 123 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: tight social groups. I had trouble at home. There were 124 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: pedophiles in the neighborhood and in the house. So I 125 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: was kind of a loner kid. And so the music 126 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: that I was hearing, I was I was with that 127 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: Dominomo than I was with the other kids. And in 128 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: high school now I'm maybe fifteen sixteen, yeah, and I'm 129 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: hearing these doo wop and rockabillyum you know, um Buddy Holly, 130 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: Elvis Presley. But it wasn't But just so we understand, 131 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't all the kids listening to. It wasn't any 132 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: like subculture music. It was subculture music, but it was 133 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: it was it was described the grown ups would have 134 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: thinked it would have thought, oh, it's just cheap, you know, 135 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: that's um uh. They they either would have associated with 136 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: black people in very ugly terms, or poor people or 137 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: not us anyway, you know, it was. It was something 138 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: that was a little um risque. It's just so interesting 139 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: because looking you know, looking back, we think of both 140 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: the music of the fifties and the sixties as so 141 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: ubiquitous and so mainstream was not so it was the 142 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: underground music of the day, and good girls didn't listen 143 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: to that kind of music interesting. Yeah, bad boys did. Um, 144 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: so I went through different social thing. I think I 145 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: went through social demotion because of the music that I liked. 146 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: I didn't care. Yeah, because that's what I wanted to do. Anywhoys, 147 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: go home and listen to my records and you felt 148 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: it in your heart? It was it was not a 149 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: It made sense to you. It didn't have to make 150 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: sense to everyone else. Do you think the other people 151 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: didn't feel it? Think of my own situation, you know, 152 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: the handful of kids hung out with I think they looked. 153 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: I think they thought it was sinful. They wouldn't have 154 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: used that word, and they weren't really churchy, but they 155 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: were definitely you know, it was just like looked at 156 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: beneath them. They would think it was beneath them, think 157 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: that it would they be ashamed to listen to it. 158 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: Do you think I think they hadn't discovered it. Tell 159 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: me your first experience of folk music. Oh gosh, let's see, 160 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: I guess I was in college. I went to the 161 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: University of Massachusetts and I got a degree in teaching 162 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: and a degree in oriental philosophy. By the way, you 163 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: started out in philosophy, I heard ye see, I've always 164 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: considered myself very fortunate in that I came along into 165 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: show business kind of by accident. I didn't really, you know, 166 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: I just surprising that I was there at all. But 167 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: I was called a folk singer because that's what they 168 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: were trying to sell. So I came to Greenwich Village 169 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: straight from college. But here I was in New York 170 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: City for the first time, and I was a songwriter. 171 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: But you weren't supposed to be one yet, and the 172 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: folk police could get after you, and if it was 173 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: it acknowledged at that time that folk music was really 174 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: an old form being brought back. So it was everyone 175 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: knew that this is old music. I think. So we 176 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: think of the sixties as when folk music started. Really yeah, okay, yeah, 177 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: so's it's interesting that it actually even then it was 178 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: old music. Yeah, it was just a new wave of 179 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: this old music. It was interesting in these old forms 180 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: of music. And like I said, I felt as though 181 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: I was very fortunate to come along when I did. 182 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: In the first place. The window to show business was 183 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: just the left opened by accident. I think, you know, 184 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: we were coming out of the Eisenhower generation, and it 185 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: was like Frank Sinatra and you know that kind of 186 00:10:54,520 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: um loungy big bands was still around. But I was 187 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: very lucky because I didn't know any think about folk music. 188 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: I was. I was just giving over my degree in 189 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: orial plosity, and I stepped on stage and I sang 190 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: these songs. Now, I was lucky enough to be around 191 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: real folk singers like Pete Seeger New and McCall jon Bias, 192 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: who sang songs that were four or five hundred years old. 193 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: They were real folk songs. And see that really thrills 194 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: me as a person who doesn't read music. And I 195 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: don't come from any kind of formal music background, including 196 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: the Paul Simon kind of music background where you grow 197 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: up in New York. Your uncle's in the business, your 198 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: other uncle's a lawyer, and somebody else, you know what 199 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: I mean. I don't come from that and marginalized people. 200 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: I think would I think it would be very surprising 201 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: to most of you guys who are really solid in 202 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: the record business and have not really experienced what it's 203 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: like to be really marginalized and not know anybody, not 204 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: have a rolodex, not not have an addressed book, not 205 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: know how it's done. Who does it? I mean we 206 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: don't even know where the door is. There's no way 207 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: for Native American people to get into show business. There 208 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: just isn't and it's very rare anyway. I think for 209 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: anybody in show business to hold the door open for 210 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: anyone else, it's just like, I'm here, how do you 211 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: like me? Now? You know? But I didn't feel like that. 212 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I carried Joni Mitchell's tape around in my 213 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: purse for long time, long months and months, and I 214 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: played it for all kinds of people in the music business. 215 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: How did you first run into Jonie? Well, she was 216 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: a fan of mine, and I don't know where it was. 217 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: It could have been a Saskatchewan and Minneapolis or somewhere. 218 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: We were both on the road and I heard about 219 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: her and I heard her musing. I just thought she 220 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: was just great. I thought, oh, she's great, she's beautiful, 221 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: she's smart, she's got she wants to she wants to 222 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: do this. Nobody wanted to hear it. So finally I 223 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: played her stuff for Elliott Roberts and told him to 224 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: go down to the where, I don't know, the Black 225 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: Cat Cafe or one of those little clubs in the village, 226 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: and they made a great career together, but it was very, 227 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: very hard. People who really are connoisseurs of folk music 228 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: would realize the folk music comes from everywhere. It's just 229 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: music made by folks. It's not just music made by 230 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: the chosen few who are making the music business some money. 231 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: We're going to invest in this, We're going to keep 232 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: the public thinking that it's very folky, but really we're 233 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: pumping dollars out of it. I mean, so many people 234 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: made money on what he got three and well even 235 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: Bob Marley later, right, I mean, you and I are 236 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: in the music business. We know where it's at. There's 237 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: always been people who are in the business to make money, 238 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: and they've always been people in the business to make 239 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: great art. It just there's both paths, Yes, there are. 240 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: And I think most most non musicians, just most listeners 241 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't realize that. And I think that most new artists 242 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: don't know that. And I think the record business has 243 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: been terribly complicit in keeping try to keep them ignorant. Yeah, 244 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: and it's a business of sharks, yes it is. I 245 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: mean I was so green. I had never met a lawyer, 246 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: I had never had a conversation with the businessman ever, 247 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: I remember when I first went to New York, I 248 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: was running around in my little heels and mini dresses 249 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: and things. And I remember I went into the Musician 250 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: Union for the first time, which is kind of like 251 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: walking into the lobby of the Sopranos. I mean, I 252 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: grew I grew up around Italian American you know, semi 253 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: mafia people you know in Maine, Massachusetts, idea that and 254 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: I look upon it very kindly, like people in the 255 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: Sopranos would, because I was seeing the family side of that, 256 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: but the business side of that, wherever it's coming from, 257 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: whether it's people whose roots are in this part of 258 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: Europe or some other part of Europe. Show business was 259 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: developed in Europe through vaudeville by h by people who 260 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: were not only concerned with the show, they were also 261 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: concerned with sustaining the business. I mean, that's not necessarily 262 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: greed and I'm going to rip off artists, but of 263 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: course the part that we object to is exactly about that, 264 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: and they've been artists ripped off forever and ever. So 265 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: I had never met a lawyer or a businessman. I 266 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: remember when I first went into Vanguard Records and they 267 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: asked me who my lawyer was, and I said I 268 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: didn't want I didn't have one, and they said that's okay, 269 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: you can use ours. So I signed a seven year deal. 270 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: How did you know to go to Vanguard? How did 271 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: you How did you know? I was just stupid? Blue 272 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: Note also wanted to sign me. So Vanguard was very big. 273 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: Yes she was. Yeah, Joan Byers was already on Vanguard 274 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: and having a fantastic career. Yeah, yeah, so she was. 275 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: She was already signed her first album. I guess was 276 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: just about time that I showed up and they wanted 277 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: to sign me, and I said, yeah, I get Depending 278 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: on how you look at it, I kind of either 279 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: fell into or lucked into having a career. My first album, 280 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I was Billboard's Best New Artist. 281 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: What just singing these songs that I'd been writing all 282 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: this time, and they were about everything, and I didn't 283 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: think it was going to do anything because people were 284 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: pretty suspect of songwriters anyway. And my first album is 285 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: called It's My Way. I think they just put it 286 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: into outer space or something, or into the Library of Congress. 287 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. It just got some big honor. I 288 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: thought it was awful. But everybody else I thought it 289 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: was awful, oh that it was included, or you thought 290 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: it was awful that the albums oh no, I thought 291 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: the album itself was awful. Oh no, the songs are wonderful, 292 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: but I just think they took the wrong takes. And 293 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: of course an artist had no say in those days, 294 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: like when did you getting into the music business? Just 295 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: to put me in the date song? Um, ninety mid eighties, okay, okay, okay, 296 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: it was the early days of hip hop music. That's right, 297 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: so nice, so nice. Yeah, so it was. It was. 298 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: It was a scene where at first it was very 299 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: naive and it was like, yes, students are in the streets, 300 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: we have discovered our brains. We're not going to your 301 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: freaking warm And there was a lot of protests bubbling under. 302 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: I had written Universal Soldier, although everybody, you know, everybody 303 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: thought Donovan wrote it. And I still have people come 304 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: up to me today and argue that Donovan wrote Universal 305 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: Soldier in Codine. And see, Donovan was a person of 306 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: conscience who wrote all of his own songs except for 307 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: two songs, and those two songs were Universal Soldier in Codine, 308 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: So he got credit for writing those as well, and 309 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: I don't think he ever took credit for it, but 310 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: his management never pointed out that it hadn't written them. Who, 311 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: how and why did you write codine? Codine? You know, 312 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: for years, until very recently, people wouldn't understand this, but 313 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: now people would. I was addicted to codeine by a 314 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: doctor in Florida. I had been playing at Freddy Neil's 315 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: place in Coconut Grove, you know that little club that 316 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: he used to have. I don't know. I went to 317 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: a doctor who said that I had bronchitis. I've been 318 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: coughing and things. I think I was probably just exhausted 319 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: from being on the road all the time and practically 320 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: lived in a bus. And he addicted me to codine. 321 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 1: And he apparently had addicted many young ladies to codine 322 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: and turned them out. And so people who are addicted 323 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: through their doctors to an opiate, and codeine seats an opiate, 324 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: I mean codeine. It sounds oh silly, triket tweet kids stuff. 325 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: Codeine is as much of an opiate as heroin is. 326 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: It's an opiate. And just like all the doctor drugs, 327 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: the synthetic drugs now like percocet, and you know all 328 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: of the oxy what's you know oxyconton all of them there, Yes, 329 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: they're all synthetic opiates. If you it's my belief, now 330 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: you might disagreement. It's my belief that if a person 331 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: gets into drugs through social reasons, they're very likely to 332 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: get addicted in a kind of a different, almost more 333 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: difficult way. You know, they're in and it's fun and 334 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: it's wonderful, and you know they haven't fun with their friends. 335 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: But if if a doctor addicts you and all of 336 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: a sudden, you have to leave town. That's what happened 337 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: to me. I had to leave Florida and we were 338 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: driving through Georgia and I was just feeling horrible, no 339 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: idea what was wrong with me, and went to a 340 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: pharmacist to refill a Florida prescription. I didn't know you 341 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: couldn't do that, and the guys that I can't feel 342 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: that it's from a different state, But how long have 343 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: you've been taking it? And heap the pharmacists pointed out 344 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: to me that I was addicted to an opiate. I 345 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: had no idea. I had just been going to the 346 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: doctor for my shots and for my pills. So I 347 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: went through withdraw cold turkey. But it wasn't like I 348 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: ever had any fun on it. So it's kind of 349 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: a kind of a really interesting that I would have 350 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: I would have guessed had I not known the story 351 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: that there was a long blues tradition of songs about drugs, cocaine, blues, cocaine, 352 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: like those kind of things. Yeah, I would think, Oh, 353 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: you're doing one of those kind of songs. I would 354 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: have never guessed it was a personal issue. Oh yeah, 355 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: it's amazing, Yeah, because you know, I didn't really have 356 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: that personal I will see at the time maybe twenty two. Yeah, 357 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: and see, I don't drink. I still don't drink. I 358 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: just zero alcohol all my life, just because I never 359 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: never did. Um. And I I was a girl by myself, 360 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: and I looked a certain way, right, I mean I 361 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: looked a certain way. I didn't run around with some 362 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: granny dress. I was either smart enough or stupid enough 363 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: to get my first show business dress from the Frederick's 364 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: catalog and the Fredericks catalog. You even know what that 365 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: is now, But it used to be this thing. You'd 366 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: see it advertised in the back of movie magazines when 367 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: I was twelve, right, and it was sexy clothes for women, 368 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: and it was drawn. They weren't photos, they were drawn, 369 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: so they were really they were really pretty. And so 370 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: I ordered this dress and I over dubbed Donald. I 371 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: made it ever A ragged him, and I mean like 372 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: a v him. And I showed up in my high 373 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: heels and think you know, there were people people around, 374 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: like Judy Collins and others in not very flamboyant clothes. 375 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: So I was also making that mistake. So here I 376 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: showed up. I wasn't singing folk songs. I didn't know 377 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: how to read music. I didn't had never met a lawyer. 378 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I was really mean, and I was wearing 379 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: the wrong thing. And you know, looking back on it, 380 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: all I can say is, you know, be yourself and 381 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: be who you are, because I had an awful lot 382 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: of fun even though I was doing everything wrong. I 383 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: didn't soar to the top. I didn't become, you know, 384 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: the equivalent of Madonna and Michael Jackson. But there were 385 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: reasons why, and it had nothing to do with lack 386 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: of talent. But those of us, like you and me, 387 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: who are in show business, we know all the things 388 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: that it takes to make an artist and it's not 389 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: all good, and it's very tricky for anyone to negotiate 390 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: as long as it lasts in that kind of center. 391 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: I had no idea that there was anybody standing in 392 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: opposition to me or trying to trip me up. I 393 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: just thought I was lucky to be there and to 394 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: get to make one record, you know, and you were. 395 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: I mean, the other side of it is, we did 396 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: get to do it. I did get to do it, 397 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: and I got to do it for my reasons, not 398 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: so much for show business reasons. And it took I 399 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: didn't find out for twenty years about I didn't know 400 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: that there was any such thing as blacklisting, none of 401 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: us did. I had no idea i'd been taken out. 402 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: I had to find out by accident. We'll be back 403 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: with Rick and Buffy Saint Marie. After a quick break. 404 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: We're back with Buffy Saint Marie, who's explaining why her 405 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: music was blacklisted by the US government in the sixties. 406 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: Do you think the song Universal Soldier is the reason. 407 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: That's what most people say, That's what Wikipedia will say. 408 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: They'll say Buffy Saint Marie was blacklisted by two American 409 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: presidents because they objected to her outspoken stance expressed in 410 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: Universal Soldier. But I don't think it was that. It 411 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: wasn't that. That's what's so fascinating about that song is 412 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: there are lots of anti war songs. There are none 413 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: from that perspective. That's a wild perspective. Have you heard 414 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: the war Racket? You got to hear the war racket? Okay, 415 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: I mean you probably most Americans, even people in the 416 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: business like yourself, lost track of me probably in nineteen 417 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: seventy or something. And if they already had children, they 418 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: may have seen me on Sesame Street for five and 419 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: a half years. They may have. But most people think 420 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: that I kind of came and went. And that's what 421 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: I thought. I thought, singers common singers go. But I 422 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: still had a big career in other places, and so 423 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, you know the US, something else came along. 424 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: I actually, you think that the popularity in Canada versus 425 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: the US had to do with blacklist things? So absolutely, 426 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: so interesting. Absolutely, I was in Canada. I was in 427 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: Toronto one day. Now, this isn't in the eighties. I 428 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: was in Toronto. I showed up for an interview in 429 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: a radio station and the guy said, I'm going to 430 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: start this interview with Opati Marie by apologizing to you 431 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: for having gone along with what I was praised to 432 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: have gone along with on White House stationary. The guy 433 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: had a letter from the Johnson White House commending him 434 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: for having suppressed my music, which deserved to be suppressed. 435 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: And the only person I knew I could talk it 436 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: over with besides my lawyer, which I mentioned it to 437 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: him one day and he suggested, did I get my 438 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: FBI files? And I said, oh, come on, you know 439 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: I've never broken the law. I've never I'm not even 440 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: the one who parades down the street with a sign. 441 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not that kind of protester. I'm a writer, right, 442 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: And the only other person I could tell besides my 443 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: lawyer was my friend taj Mahal and Tyres and I 444 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: were classmates together at the University of Massachusetts, and then 445 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: we both moved to Hawaii, and I had already been 446 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: here for a long time, and our sons wound up 447 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: best friends, and our sons wound up being college roommates 448 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: at Berkeley College and music incredible, I don't know, so anyway, 449 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: we were real good friends, and Tyres pointed out to 450 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: me that Eartha kit Too had been blacklisted, and he 451 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: knew some other people who he thought had. So my 452 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: lawyer said, well, let's get your FBI files. I said, oh, 453 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: there aren't any. Well they were like like thirty one pages. 454 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: I think, wow, it's all redacted. I mean, you know, 455 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: they were following me around and making sure that I 456 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: wasn't something that I ravel rousing. Yeah. No, but I 457 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: wasn't much of a rabbel rousing. I was a writer, 458 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: That's who. I'm a writer and a philosopher. I'm not 459 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: a card carrying fist pumper. I'm just not remember the 460 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: original inspiration for Universal Soldier again, just because the perspective 461 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: is tell me the story. I absolutely remember it. Let 462 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: me let me just set it for it. Okay, I'm 463 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: in Greenwich fille Is. There's students all over the streets, right. 464 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: It's it's it's about music, and it's about the fact 465 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: that we kind of don't trust mister Man anymore. You know. 466 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: It's like we're coming out of the eyes and our generation. 467 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: It's Kennedy time. Anyway. I was in an airport. I 468 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: was in San Francisco Airport, coming from Mexico on the 469 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: way to Toronto. I had a concent at the Purple 470 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: Onion and in the middle of the night, some medics 471 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: came in. They were wheeling wounded soldiers in kearneys and 472 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: wheelchairs and things, and I got to talk into one 473 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: of the medics, and you know, I asked, I asked him. 474 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: You know, he assured me that there was a war 475 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: going on in Vietnam and it was horrible. And I 476 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: just got to thinking, well, who is it Who's responsible 477 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: for war? Is it these guys? Is it these poor 478 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: guys lying here? You know, some some private you know, 479 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: he signed up to make the world a better place, 480 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: or a family tradition, or see the world, and now 481 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: he's lying here. Half dad, right, Well, there's a certain 482 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: hot responsibility right then, But you know, the night's going on, 483 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: the flight's going to leave in the morning. I had 484 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: nothing to do. I got a long flight ahead of me, 485 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking about this. So the song really 486 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: is about individual responsibility for the world we're living in, 487 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: you know, That's that's the way I put it. And 488 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: it's about alternative conflict resolution. They're all part of the 489 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: same thing. Okay, So nobody knew I wrote it. Everybody 490 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 1: thought Donovan wrote it, so that wasn't the problem. However, 491 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: a little bit later I had written this other song. 492 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: Was it a big hit for Donovan? It was a 493 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: hit for Donovan. I couldn't tell you how many of 494 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: the soldo were. I think so yeah, I think it 495 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: was yeah. But see I didn't I had. I told 496 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: you I had never met a businessman, and I had 497 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: been in town, and I had been in Greenwich Village, 498 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, not very long. And I was singing 499 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: Universal Soldier. I had been singing it in Europe as well. 500 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: That's where Donovan heard it. But I was saying I 501 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: was singing it at the gas like cafe. Did you 502 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: ever see that place? Oh, downstairs plays a real famous 503 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: place for movies to sing past, the hat club, And 504 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: the high women came in and they heard it. And 505 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: the high women were like a preppy group like the 506 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: Kingston Trio, right kind of imagine, you know, for preppy 507 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: guys singing a lot of folk songs. And they heard 508 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: Universal Soldier and they were coming off this huge hit. 509 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: Michael rolled a voter show a Hallelujah right, Oh, it 510 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: was like number one. They were coming off this hit 511 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: and they wanted to record Universal Soldier, and they said 512 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: who's the publisher? And I said, what's that And the 513 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: guy at a guy at another table who was a 514 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: friend of my manager at the time, said oh, I 515 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: can help you with that right, and he made up 516 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: a contract at the table. I signed it. He gave 517 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: me a dollar and he owned the rights to Universal Soldier, 518 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: and Donovan got a hit and he got credit for 519 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: having written it. So you'll find out as you get 520 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: to know me better. I like to turn things positive. 521 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: The positive about this story is that ten years later 522 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: I was able to buy back the rights at least 523 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: part of the rights to Universal Soldier for twenty five 524 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, which is a lot of money at that time. 525 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: So I was doing that well to rescue my own song. 526 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: And at the same time, see, I had written this 527 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: song called until It's Time for You to Go. You're 528 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: not a dream, You're not an angel, You're a man 529 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: writing like you played at a million weddings. Yeah, and 530 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: everybody was recordies. I'd been in the sixties. You wrote 531 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: it in the sixties. Did you ever record it in 532 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: the sixties, sixty three or sixty four? Show? No? Really, Oh, 533 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: maybe sixty four sixty five. Yeah, he said, one of 534 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: your earl. We really Yeah, I didn't know that I 535 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: got my second album. I think incredible. Yeah, but okay, 536 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: so I've written this song. Oh god, Bobby Darren recorded it. Now, 537 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: he recorded it in the first the first person to 538 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: cover it by Bobby Darren was the first person to 539 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: cover it. Yeah, can I use this guitar? Here? Do 540 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: we have time for please? Oh? Please? Okay. So the 541 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: way the way I had written it, da da da, 542 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: You're a man, I'm not a queen. I'm a woman. 543 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: Take my I'm not a queen. I'm a woman. Take 544 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: my hand. We'll make a space in the lines that 545 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: we plan and he will stay until this time. Oh, 546 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: you to go see how it goes, and he will 547 00:30:53,400 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: stay until this time for you to go. Well, it 548 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: holds what's called a suspension, and most people don't know 549 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: what that is, but it's it's a da here there's 550 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: note in here again. Well, Bobby Darren and his musical director, 551 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: they didn't catch that, and they recorded it really vanilla 552 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: and here's time burned. It dawned on ba ba bam. 553 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 1: So it's not like every other song right fathered me. Oh, 554 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: it just pissed me off for years. And then many 555 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: other people who recorded it, like Sonny and Share recorded it, ROBERTA. 556 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: Flack recorded it, d Atkins recorded it was How was 557 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: the Roberta version? Oh it's beautiful piano. Yeah, she does 558 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,239 Speaker 1: it on piano, and she gets the chords right. I mean, 559 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: the real musicians got the chords right. But whoever followed 560 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: Bobby Darren's Vegas version did not. And Elvis Pressley recorded that, 561 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: Barbara Streissen recorded at Boston Pops Orchestra. Everybody recorded it, right. 562 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: What's your favorite version? Oh? Gosh, I loved what Chad 563 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: Atkins did. Glencamble did a beautiful version, and it's been 564 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: done in other languages too. But anyway, when I was 565 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: trying to say is that this song kind of brought 566 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: me to television, and they wouldn't let me on television 567 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: with Universal's older, right, so I think. But once I 568 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: got on television, I opened my mouth and I was 569 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: talking about you know, Native American rights, alternative conflict resolution. 570 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: I mean, that's not who they hired. They wanted a 571 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: chick in a short skirt to come on and sing 572 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: the song and talk about how much fun it was 573 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: to you know, celebrity chat, and I didn't do that. 574 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: Harry Bellafardi invited me onto the Tonight Show and I 575 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: sang now that the Buffalo's Gone, which is about the 576 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: breaking of the oldest treaty and congressional archives, which had 577 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: been done in the on the administration of George Washington, right, 578 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin, those people, right, they unilaterally broke the oldest 579 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: treaty in congres rational archives, and now that the Buffalo's 580 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: Gone tells that story. And it was on my first 581 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: album along with Universal Soldiers. So I did that song 582 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: with Harry Bellafonte when he filled in for Johnny Carson 583 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: on The Tonight Show. And the next time that I 584 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: was invited to come on the Tonight Show to actually 585 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: be with Johnny, I was told in no, on certain 586 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: terms that you know, it was to sing celebrity right, 587 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: just no, no, And it's not going to be Universal Soldier, 588 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: and it's not going to be any kind of song 589 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: of you know, asking for change or pointing things out. 590 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: Wasn't going to be a protest song. So I turned 591 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: it down. The screener, I was talking to the screener, 592 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, one of the producers calls you up and 593 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: talks it over with you. Yeah, we'd love to have 594 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: you back on, but you know times have changed, so 595 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: you don't want to hear it. We don't want to 596 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: hear any of that protest stuff, just singing until it's 597 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: time to go. So I turned it down. So when 598 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: it comes to you round about way to your question 599 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: about was I blacklisted because Universal Soldier? No, I was 600 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: blacklisted because I'm an outspoken person. I was a woman 601 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: on television pointing out the fact that they were stealing 602 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: Indian land, the particular parts of Indian land that contained uranium. 603 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: You don't want you don't say that right. So anyway, 604 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 1: j Edgar Hoover, he was not a fan of mine, 605 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: both apparently both the Johnson and Nixon governments. I didn't 606 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: find out about the Nixon blacklisting until gie a few 607 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: years ago on the Internet a guy from the CIA, 608 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: not the FBI. The CIA also was talking about Cotel 609 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: pro you know, and me and other a few other 610 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: artists being followed, and really it was an attempt to 611 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: shut us up. Now at a certain point, all of 612 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: a sudden, I couldn't get any airplay. It didn't matter 613 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: what we recorded. I was I was recording in nash 614 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: We're leaving a whole lot out. I was spending time 615 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: with chet Atkins. Chet Atkins fixed me up with Norbert 616 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: Putnam's Eric Code six one five bands, just solid, wonderful band, 617 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: Oh my god, and we were making really good records. 618 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I want to give you a list because 619 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: I think probably I've done some I think you've probably 620 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: lost track of me significantly enough so that you've probably 621 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: missed eighty percent of what I've done. That's good, and 622 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: you've probably heard just a few little things. But I'll 623 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: feel ye an after this great and we'll put together 624 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: a playlist based on what you give me, and we'll 625 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 1: attach it to this, to this interview that everyone could hear. Yeah, 626 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: I think it would be interesting to people because you know, 627 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: you know how it is. You've you've known an lot 628 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: of artists with long careers. Yes, and things change and 629 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: you come and go and you For me, it's always 630 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: been like people think that you're so creative when you're 631 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: out there on the road right, no time to be creative, 632 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: and you barely have a chance to get a nap. 633 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: You're exhausted all the time, and then you take you 634 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: take some time off and they think that you've not 635 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: creative anymore, which is when, at least in my case, 636 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: that's when I'm most creative. Yeah, there were also some 637 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 1: show business mistakes I think that I made, taking certain 638 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: people off and just not just not being much of us. 639 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm not much of a social networker at all. I 640 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: didn't go to the right party. But what I've had, 641 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: I think has been a different kind of life than 642 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: the lives of my peers in show business. I never 643 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: did drink so and I was afraid of man because, 644 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: like I said, in my childhood, it was Peter. It 645 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: was just it was. There are a lot of pet 646 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: files around, so I was kind of I was afraid 647 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: of men. And I didn't go to bars. And that's 648 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: where all the deals I made after the show. You 649 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 1: go out with the business people and you make nice 650 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: and everybody has a few drinks and you sit around 651 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: and there's wine and there's livity blind who knows what alice? 652 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: While I wasn't there, I don't even know what there 653 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: was what else because I wasn't there, and I wasn't 654 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: there for good reasons. I was by myself. I wasn't 655 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: a guy, and I wasn't a girl with an entourage 656 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: around her. I didn't have strong management. I was just 657 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: a little piece of something, and I knew how you 658 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: get treated when you show up in the wrong place 659 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: at the wrong hour. So I think I did really 660 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: well in negotiating show business on my own terms to 661 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: the end where I feel very satisfied as a writer 662 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: and an artist and the places that I've been and 663 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: the people that I've met and the things that I've done. 664 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: I took sixteen years off in the middle of my 665 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: career to raise my son, and the first five of 666 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: those we were on Sesame Street. Then when it was 667 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: time for him to go to school, I said, well, 668 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: you know, we Reagan had cut the budget to the 669 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: arts for Sesame Street and we had already been on 670 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: five and a half years, and when he did that, 671 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: it would have meant that we would have had to 672 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: move to New York or just not be a part 673 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: of it anymore. So I asked my son, who was 674 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: I guess from five at the time. I said, do 675 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: you want to still live in Hawaii or do you 676 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: want to live in New York? And he said Hawaii, 677 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: And that's what I was hoping. He was a good choice. Yeah, 678 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: so I took time off. We'll be back with Rick 679 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: and Buffy Saint Marie after a quick break. We're back 680 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: with Buffy Saint Marie. Tell me where a song comes 681 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: from for you? I wish I knew. I just don't know. 682 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: So usually start with an idea or might it start 683 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: with music? It might I might be fooling around with 684 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: my guitar or my piano or you know, any any 685 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: kind of a dram anything. I don't know, what just 686 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: pops into your head. I don't know. Just I think 687 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: I write the same way that I did when I 688 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,919 Speaker 1: was three, which is might be bad news for some people, 689 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: but it's kind of good news for me, and it's 690 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: all I got. Yeah, I think it's only good news 691 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: because it's you were playing. So if you're keeping the 692 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: childlike play, that's it. That's only good thank you. That's 693 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: exactly it for me. The music is playing. And I 694 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of work, and like I said, 695 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: this show and you got to show up, and there's business, 696 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: but that that initial thing, the thing that keeps us happening, 697 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to be musicians every day, is the 698 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,919 Speaker 1: fact that it's fun. What's the story of Little Will 699 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: Spin and Spin? Oh, thank you. It's just talking about 700 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: our kind of like the human condition all the time, 701 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: whether you're talking about the schoolyard or the church, or 702 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah business or politics. There's this idea 703 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: of this think local, act locally, think globally. It's like 704 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: a gearing the way that you're making things happen in 705 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: your family life at home, in your personal life, inside 706 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: your heart and mind, where you know things are going on. 707 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: It really really does affect the neighborhood, your island, or 708 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: your community, your nation, the world. It really does. So 709 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: it says things like, Merry Christmas, jingle bells, christ is 710 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: born in the Devil's in hell. Hots they shrink, but 711 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: pockets swell. Everybody knows, nobody tell right, it's like Christmas time. Yeah, 712 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: it says, blame the Angels, Blame the Fates, Blame the 713 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: Jews or your sister Kate, teach your children how to hate. 714 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: And the big wheels turn around and around. Oh, the 715 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: sins of Caesar's men, cry the pious citizens who petty thieve, 716 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: the five and tens and the big whales turn around 717 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: and around. Turn your back on weeds. You've hold silly, 718 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: sinful seeds, You've sowed at your strata. The camel's load, honey, 719 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: prey like hell, when your world explode. Little wheel spin 720 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: and spend, big wheels turn around, Nan says, swing your 721 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: girl fiddle, or say later on the piper, pay Josie 722 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: do swing and sway dead, will dance on judgment Day. 723 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: Little wheel spin and spin, the big wheels turn around 724 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: and around. So I think some of my songs they've 725 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: definitely written by a philosopher. I have two kinds of 726 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: protest songs and then other songs of empowerment. You got 727 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: to Run is one of them, carry it on as another. 728 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: It's the opposite of a protest song. A protest song 729 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: will lay out what the problem is. And this other 730 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: kind of song for which we don't have a name 731 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: for the genre, is like the solution beautiful. Yeah it works, 732 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: but nobody's doing it right now. And you know, I 733 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: do a lot of interviews, and a lot of interviewers 734 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 1: are asking me, well, where are the great protest songs 735 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: right now? And all I can said is a hip hop, 736 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,359 Speaker 1: you know rap. You know, it's kind of hard to find, 737 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: But I think the sentiment to drive the creature video 738 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: is still there among young people and the rest of us. 739 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,760 Speaker 1: But I don't know what is happening with you know, hello, 740 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: Paul Simon and Sting and you know some of the 741 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: other people who've made a freaking fortune a fortune. How 742 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: can they see these things going down and not respond 743 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 1: with their just the heart of their talent and brains. 744 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: You know, they're I don't know where their songs are, 745 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: do you know? I don't know. Are you hearing people 746 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: write that kind of songs anymore? I hear I hear 747 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: young artists doing protest songs. I've um they exist. They exist, 748 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: they're not They're clearly not in the mainstream, and they're not. 749 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: They don't seem to have the same impact that they 750 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: once did. And I don't know why that is. In 751 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: the sixties, they were making money off protest music, right, 752 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't getting much money out of Universal Soldier, 753 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: but Donovan's people were, And so was the guy who 754 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: had given me one dollar, who stole the right how 755 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: he didn't steal him, he didn't. I was just green. 756 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: I was just dumb. No, I don't. I'm not mad 757 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: at him for that. That was just me. How did 758 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: you end up meeting um? Jack? Nichi? Jack Nichi? Jack, 759 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 1: you were married yet? Okay, I know very little? Not then, Okay, 760 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: I'll tell you. Okay, I told you I was a 761 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: philosophy major, which you can dig because you were philosophy 762 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: major too. Okay. So one of the people I came across, 763 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: of course, with Friedrich Nizzi, and Friedrich Nizi unfortunately was 764 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 1: totally u misportrayed by the Nazis who just misconstrued a lot. Anyway, 765 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: he was a great philosopher and I really thought he 766 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 1: was terrific. Um. So I'm already recording for Vanguard. I 767 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: don't know how many albums I've made for them. But 768 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: Jack Nietchi saw cash Box Magazine the picture of he 769 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,760 Speaker 1: said he fell in love with me, but my picture 770 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: in cash Box magazine and got in touch with then 771 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: he my records, right, got in touch with Maynard Solomon 772 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: and just was begging to make a record with me. 773 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: And I guess it was Oh, you know, I was 774 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: already in Nashville working with chedd Atkins, which was a 775 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: dream come true. Oh God, he was wonderful anyway, Jack, 776 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: That's how Jack discovered me and Jack wanted to make 777 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: an already working with Neil. He had already been working 778 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: with Neil. He had already been working with Neil Young. Yes, 779 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: and so Jack wanted desperately to make a record with me. 780 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: And I didn't even know who he was except that 781 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 1: he was He was the He was the grandson of 782 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: Friedrich Netzi's brother. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, it's 783 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: that Nietzi. Those are the Nietzi's we're talking about. So 784 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: really his name, Yes, that's really here. We thought that 785 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: was his stage name. No, oh, no, he come he no. 786 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: You know, people will tell you terrible stories. Jack himself 787 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: would tell you terrible stories about himself. Jack died a 788 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: few years ago, by the way, So we we met. 789 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,800 Speaker 1: We made this album called He Used to Want to 790 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: Be a Ballerine or I think it's the worst record 791 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: either one of us ever made, but some people liked it. 792 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,800 Speaker 1: But it has a few really nice things on it. 793 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: So anyway, every now and then Jack had called me 794 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: up and he'd need something like he needed me. He 795 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: was he was scoring performance Donald Campbell's movie. It was 796 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: Mick Jagger's first acting role performance. It's really good too. 797 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: It's a great movie and great score. I mean Jack 798 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 1: in case you're in case our listeners don't understand Jack 799 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: nets Is. He's very very well known for movie composer 800 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: and totally original, you know, and he doesn't use ghosts 801 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:46,720 Speaker 1: to write his music. He was really really unique talent, 802 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: very wonderful talent. God. He wrote beautiful things that most 803 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,880 Speaker 1: people will never hear. And I was scoring my own movies, 804 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: but I was also working with Jack from time to 805 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 1: time because Jack was all in love see, and I 806 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: didn't see him for years and years and years, and 807 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,399 Speaker 1: then he came back into my life because he said 808 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: that he was scoring a movie and it was a 809 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: real good movie with Richard Kere and Deborah Winger, and 810 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: he couldn't come up with a main theme. I don't know. 811 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: I didn't understand that at all. Jack is, he's just 812 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: a brilliant composer, but he can't improvise. And I've never 813 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,399 Speaker 1: understood that. See. I'm a writer too, but I can't read. 814 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: So there's all kinds of ways to approach music, and 815 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: they're all good. There's no right way, and it's a 816 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: mystery every time. See. So Jack wouldn't go up with 817 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: the melody and he came to visit me, brought the 818 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: director along. I hadn't seen him in a long long time. 819 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,720 Speaker 1: And by that time I was done with Sesame Street. 820 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,320 Speaker 1: I was raising my son by myself here in Hawaii, 821 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: and Jack showed up and I played him love lift 822 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 1: us up where we belong? Right? And I played the 823 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: whole melody and the bridge and everything, and that became 824 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: the main theme for an Officer and a Gentleman, and 825 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: it became the main theme for the song up will 826 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 1: We Belong, which was my melody, a little thing that 827 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: Jack wrote, and then words by Will Jennings, genius Will Jennings, Yes, 828 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: oh god, what a writer. But Jack didn't tell the 829 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: movie director that I had written it. He pretended he 830 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:34,279 Speaker 1: had written it. Yeah, so at some point he had 831 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: to tell Taylor Hackford that he had not written it. 832 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: And so this was not a big deal because movie 833 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 1: companies would know how to handle that, but it was. 834 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: It was very weird. I wrote a lot of things 835 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 1: that went into Jack's scores, but he would always tell me, no, 836 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: don't don't tell anybody because and I didn't care anyway. 837 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: All was, as you know, a little bit here, a 838 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: little bit there, and so eventually we got married. That's 839 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,719 Speaker 1: a big jump, though, from a terrible jump to leave me. 840 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: It was a leap of stupidity. How did that happen? Happen? Oh? God, 841 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: I had lost track of Jack, So there was an 842 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: awful lot that I didn't know. Yes, I was raising 843 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 1: my son in Hawaii and doing education and concerts in 844 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 1: foreign countries. But the US didn't love me anymore, so 845 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know 846 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,320 Speaker 1: about Jack's police record. I didn't know about anything. And 847 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: he came along and he was so nice to my 848 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: little boy and carrying him around in his shoulders, and 849 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be wonderful and blahity blah and I've been 850 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,800 Speaker 1: out shopping for the ring and this is what he 851 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: told me. Oh, anyway, I kind of just I just said, yes, 852 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: I liked him. We had been friends. We were musical 853 00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: at this point. Well, yeah, I had known him for 854 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,359 Speaker 1: a long length of time, but there were many years 855 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 1: where there was no calendar at all. It was him 856 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,320 Speaker 1: for years. Yes, yeah, and I had known in the sixties. 857 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,840 Speaker 1: When I knew him, he's kind of cuckoo, but he 858 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: was on best behavior when he came back into my life, 859 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,839 Speaker 1: and we were married for just a short time when 860 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: I realized I was in deep trouble. And you know, 861 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 1: I say this in all Calvin d Did he have 862 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: a drug problem? I don't know much at all. Oh, well, 863 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: you know there's a filmmaker named Christians Saint Clair I 864 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: believe his name is, who's making a movie about Jack. 865 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: And he asked me to speak out because I don't 866 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,040 Speaker 1: talk about Jack, and I said, only if Jack's son, 867 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: Jack Junr, is part of this, which he was. So 868 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: I saw a little bit of about I saw a 869 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 1: little bit of what Keith Richards did because he and 870 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 1: Keith were very good friends, and what Jack and Willie 871 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: Deville had done together lots and lots of clips. And 872 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,919 Speaker 1: I did my peace too. But I don't think it's 873 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: come out yet. And I really don't feel comfortable in 874 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: describing Jack in any way except to tell you that 875 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: he was super brilliant, I mean genius brilliant, you know, 876 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:19,239 Speaker 1: seems a very unique intelligence. He was brutal. He would 877 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: tell you that everybody in Hollywood thinks he's an asshole, 878 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: and that they he was right. He would do terrible, 879 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,800 Speaker 1: terrible things because of his he had. He had a 880 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: mental problem exacerbated like you know, an awful lot of 881 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: people exacerbated by alcohol. So he was an alcoholic and 882 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,440 Speaker 1: drugs exacerbated, but his real problem was a mental problem. 883 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,920 Speaker 1: Friedrich Nietzi died in a mental institution. So did his father, 884 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,520 Speaker 1: the father of Friedrich Nietzchi, and you know, so it's 885 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: something that runs in the family. And all I can 886 00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: tell you is in defense of Jack, who was no 887 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: day at the beach. Yes, and the first to admit 888 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,240 Speaker 1: it was that, you know, he would get a score 889 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,759 Speaker 1: of brain chemicals that was just Tara, and he'd lay 890 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: it on whoever was there, and most of the time 891 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,320 Speaker 1: that was me. So I hung in there for about 892 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,799 Speaker 1: eight years and finally finally I had to. I won't 893 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 1: I'll spare you the details, but they were pretty dramatic. 894 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: You know. Andrea Warner's book, she wrote an autobiography, She 895 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: wrote a biography of me. She just called it Buffy 896 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: Saint Mary the Autobiography, and she goes into some of 897 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 1: the details. But musicians sometimes, I guess, I guess the 898 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,479 Speaker 1: reason why I'm willing to talk about it a little 899 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,120 Speaker 1: bit is to share with you Jack's probably going to 900 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: go down in history unless you talked to Keith Richards 901 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: as being a real jerk, And why would I brought 902 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,759 Speaker 1: up with that for so long? Neil Young also loved Jack. Yeah, 903 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 1: Leslie Morris too, just loves Jack. A few people, just 904 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: a few. Jack has a few people, and I'm one 905 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:11,440 Speaker 1: of them. Who um who even though he was crazy 906 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: and we know he was crazy and we know he 907 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:14,600 Speaker 1: was an asshole, and would agree with all of that, 908 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,880 Speaker 1: but the most honest person I ever met. So many times, 909 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: the brilliance comes with other things. It's like, I don't know, 910 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,880 Speaker 1: it's I do. I think sometimes it does, but I 911 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 1: don't necessarily think it has to. And I don't know. 912 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,440 Speaker 1: It doesn't excuse either. It doesn't have to and it's 913 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 1: not an excuse. But it's true that they come together 914 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: sometimes it's not. It's like the same that break from 915 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:46,359 Speaker 1: reality allows innovation. I think you're right. I think you're right, 916 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 1: and even less severe breaks with reality, like me wanting 917 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: to live in Hawaii. You know, I live in the 918 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: mountains over here, not because I'm Barbie wants to go 919 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 1: to the beach. No, it's not that I live here 920 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: because it is an it's an aberration for a person 921 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: in show business to hide away in a place nobody 922 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,960 Speaker 1: can find you. It's an aberration, but it's my aberrations. 923 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: Sounds really healthy to me. It is healthy, and it 924 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,839 Speaker 1: has been, and it has been for me. So it's 925 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: always a it's always a balance because you know, people 926 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: in the US don't understand that I have a big career. 927 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,600 Speaker 1: They don't know because they think, oh, that was the 928 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,239 Speaker 1: little Indian girl that would make you cry, you know, 929 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: or and I you know, to address that further. You know, 930 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 1: people people would just think the little Indian girl is 931 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,239 Speaker 1: mistaken because I wrote a song called My Country chis 932 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: of Thy People You're Dying, which is Indian one on 933 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,640 Speaker 1: one in six minutes, and it's heavy. But I tried 934 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,320 Speaker 1: when I put this album together, of it's a retrospective 935 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:56,120 Speaker 1: of all the strong songs, whether they're strongly positive or protest. 936 00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: There's not one of them that's pap you know, it's 937 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 1: all pretty strong stuff. And when you look back on it, 938 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, how are you going to do that? My 939 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: Country tis of Thy People You're Dying, Universal soldier now 940 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: the buffalo is gone. I did them exactly the way 941 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,000 Speaker 1: that I did then, only I'm a better guitar player 942 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,319 Speaker 1: and a better singer, and we have better recording now. 943 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 1: My latest album is Power is Medicine Songs, but the 944 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 1: one before that, Power in the Blood, is what I 945 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 1: would advise first time listeners to hear. I think they 946 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 1: I think they'd like that album. It's very diverse, has 947 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,319 Speaker 1: a lot of different kinds of music in it. Great. 948 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:39,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, my pleasure. Thanks to Buffy Saint 949 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 1: Marie for sharing her story and inspiration with Rick. Be 950 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: sure to check out the playlist Buffy created for us 951 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,160 Speaker 1: at Broken Record podcast dot com, and also subscribe to 952 00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, 953 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: where we'll be putting up our old interviews and also 954 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: new ones, sometimes with some extra content. Broken Record is 955 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 1: produced with help from Jason Gambrell, me Belle, Leah Rose, 956 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,319 Speaker 1: and Martin Gonzalez for pushing industries. Our theme music's by 957 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.