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Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our talk about the

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Speaker 1: pointing gesture in humans, maybe in animals, mostly in humans. Robert,

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Speaker 1: I have a question, Yes, since we recorded part one,

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Speaker 1: have you noticed yourself noticing the way you point at

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Speaker 1: things and the way your family points at things? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe a little bit. Actually, you know, we

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Speaker 1: for one thing, I guess around the house, there's not

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Speaker 1: a lot. I mean, what am I going to point out? Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's all a very established environment. We've

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Speaker 1: got a few walks here and there and done, you know,

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Speaker 1: some stuff outside. But I don't know, I haven't done

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Speaker 1: much specific pointing. Um maybe a little bit at like

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Speaker 1: birds and squirrels and all. But um, yeah, I I

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Speaker 1: found that. I want to say that this these episodes

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Speaker 1: really changed the way I engage in pointing, but it

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Speaker 1: I don't think it has. It's really made me. The

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Speaker 1: area where it has influenced me more is mode noticing

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Speaker 1: how much we depend on the idea of pointing in

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Speaker 1: our language, and in just our our understanding of the world,

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Speaker 1: and in our technology, which I'll get to at the

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Speaker 1: end of this episode. But you wanted to talk some

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Speaker 1: more about animals, right, you didn't get enough animal pointing

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Speaker 1: in the last episode. Oh yeah, yeah, we we closed

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Speaker 1: out the last episode. And if you did not listen

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Speaker 1: to the last episode, do go back and listen to it,

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Speaker 1: because this is definitely a part one and part two

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Speaker 1: situation here and not just you know, to treatments on

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Speaker 1: a similar topic. So yeah, at the end, we were

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Speaker 1: talking a little bit about dogs and about um elephants

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Speaker 1: and dolphins. I wanted to point out that cats and

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Speaker 1: horses have also been attributed some degree of understanding of

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Speaker 1: human pointing, at least in some studies. Um Uh, horses,

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Speaker 1: I can, I guess I can understand that one a bit.

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Speaker 1: With cats, I'm I'm very much on the fence with that.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little doubtful, but allegedly at least some cats

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Speaker 1: are able to pick up on that. Um. Now, on

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Speaker 1: the divide between a domestic dog's ability to understand pointing

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Speaker 1: versus a wild wolf's inability to understand pointing, I ran across, uh,

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Speaker 1: some some writings about this from primatologists Friends of All,

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Speaker 1: who has been a past guest on the show. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We we interviewed him one time a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: I think actually Christian and I interviewed him about his

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Speaker 1: book called Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart

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Speaker 1: Animals Are? In this very book, are we smart enough

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Speaker 1: to Know How smart animals are? Um? Uh? Friends of

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Speaker 1: All says the following about this domestic dog and wolf

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Speaker 1: divide quote. Wolves may be poor at following human pointing,

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Speaker 1: but when it comes to picking up hints from their

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Speaker 1: own kind, they beat dogs. The investigators ascribed this con

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Speaker 1: trust to attention rather than cognition. They point out that

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Speaker 1: wolves watch one another more closely, as they rely on

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Speaker 1: the pack for survival, whereas dogs rely on us. That

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Speaker 1: I think is an excellent point. I mean, so some

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Speaker 1: people I think have tried to say, like, oh, if

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Speaker 1: an animal doesn't understand human pointing gestures, that's like a

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Speaker 1: cognitive limitation of the animals because the animals not smart

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Speaker 1: enough to get what's going on, which I think is ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: Like it doesn't take the ethological point of view into

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Speaker 1: consideration that animals are adapted to certain kinds of social interactions.

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Speaker 1: It's not like that that an animal is not smart

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Speaker 1: if it's not particularly adapted to human gestures. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah. His main point here is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have to be very careful about human centric criteria

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Speaker 1: in our understanding and evaluation of animal intelligence. The dog

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Speaker 1: only seems brighter to some because it is so closely

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Speaker 1: aligned with our own cognition again via you know, these

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Speaker 1: thousands of years ers of cohabitation and domestication. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I think even this came up in the last episode.

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Speaker 1: There might even be some evidence to indicate that it's

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Speaker 1: not even all they're just in like the dog's inbred instinct.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it might be literally just exposure to

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Speaker 1: humans within the dog's own lifetime. And and it's interesting

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Speaker 1: too if if we think again to what pointing essentially

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Speaker 1: is for the human animal, like really boil it down

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Speaker 1: a means of directing the attention of others to something,

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Speaker 1: then it's not It's not like there are not other

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Speaker 1: examples in the wild gaze, body language and vocalization instantly

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Speaker 1: come to mind. Multiple species on say the African savannah

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Speaker 1: or within a rainforest community, they communicate and or pick

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Speaker 1: up on queues that direct attention towards, say, a common adversary,

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Speaker 1: some sort of a predator creeping into the area. An

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Speaker 1: animal alarm signal is simply an anti predator adaptation. And likewise,

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Speaker 1: especially with some birds, there are also deceptive alarm call

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Speaker 1: is that manipulate these systems. So you know, we have

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Speaker 1: to consider that. We also have to consider alarm pheromones

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Speaker 1: chemical signals that achieve the same ends. And that's something

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Speaker 1: we we don't only see that in animals. We see

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Speaker 1: examples of this in plants. Now that's very interesting, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder, I don't know, I don't know the answer

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Speaker 1: to this. I wonder if you do, if there's any

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Speaker 1: evidence of pheromonal signaling signaling having directionality to it. So

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Speaker 1: not just saying like, hey, there is something to be

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Speaker 1: concerned about, but hey, there's something right here to be

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Speaker 1: concerned about. Here's where it is. This would be this

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Speaker 1: would be a fun one to get into. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about doing a plant communication and even

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Speaker 1: planned intelligence episode for a while. I think that's something

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Speaker 1: we should get to this year for sure, totally. Now,

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Speaker 1: other other examples from the animal world reveal just how

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Speaker 1: unnecessary the question is with certain species, uh, consider ants

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Speaker 1: for example, which as you social insects, they're capable of

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Speaker 1: working together to perform complex tasks and and solve rather

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Speaker 1: interesting problems. We've we've talked about this in the show before,

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Speaker 1: but despite the trappings of our language, when we consider

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Speaker 1: a queen in an in an ant colony, there is

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Speaker 1: no single ant commanding the others, there's no ant pointing,

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Speaker 1: and yet there is this communication based on pheromones, sounds,

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Speaker 1: and touch. That's a very good point, I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: I think we can naively fall into the assumption, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that the queen is in charge of the ant colony,

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Speaker 1: but in fact, there is something in charge of the

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Speaker 1: ant colony. But it's not a single individual animal. It's

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Speaker 1: a distributed kind of intelligence and directionality. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: the way that a government might be directed by a constitution,

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Speaker 1: but the constitution is in the ants genes. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: like when we compare the human condition to the ant condition,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's just a lot of stuff that is

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Speaker 1: there's not going to be a really a good one

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Speaker 1: to one comparison. Though, of course we we end up

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Speaker 1: falling back on that, right because a lot of that

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Speaker 1: is how we innately understand the world without the inside

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Speaker 1: of science, Like how do we understand the ant? We

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Speaker 1: try and put ourselves in the mind of the ant,

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Speaker 1: within the culture of the ant, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: use our own model to judge that by our kind

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Speaker 1: of hierarchies, like who's your boss? But the queen is

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Speaker 1: not the ant's boss, really, the queen is more like

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Speaker 1: the ants. Uh sex organs. Yeah, it's like, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: considering the sex organs to be the leader of the

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Speaker 1: human organism. So anyway, those are just some additional thoughts

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Speaker 1: on the the animal realm of pointing and not pointing.

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Speaker 1: But most of what we're gonna be talking about in

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Speaker 1: this part two is going to relate back to the

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Speaker 1: the human condition of pointing at things and what does

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Speaker 1: it mean and how it factors into our larger cognitive picture.

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Speaker 1: Right now, one of the things we talked about in

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Speaker 1: the last episode is the idea of pointing as a

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Speaker 1: as a pretty much universal human communication property is found

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Speaker 1: in all cultures that arise is very naturally, very young

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Speaker 1: in children all over the place, basically, with the only

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Speaker 1: major known variations being like certain neurological conditions. But so

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Speaker 1: here's an interesting question is, so, if pointing seems to

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Speaker 1: arise naturally in children, uh, you know, there are obviously

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Speaker 1: cultural variations around conventions for pointing and adults. It looks

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Speaker 1: like children pretty much everywhere start pointing roughly around the

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Speaker 1: same stage and development. Yeah. I think some people say

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Speaker 1: what around by by age one? And I think it's

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Speaker 1: also been said about nine to fourteen months, so basically

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Speaker 1: that window, that's right, Yeah, exactly. So it seems like

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Speaker 1: this absolutely crucial piece of early communication. And some theorists

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Speaker 1: have argued that pointing is the first exclusively informative gesture

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Speaker 1: that most children display. It's like the child's first type

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Speaker 1: of pure information communication. But the interesting question is how

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Speaker 1: does that happen? How does pointing again in the child?

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Speaker 1: Where does it come from? And how do we learn

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Speaker 1: to do it? So I want to refer to a

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Speaker 1: study that I was reading by Catholo Madigan, Gregor Cotchell,

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Speaker 1: and Brent Strickland, published in the journal Science Advances in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen called the Origin of Pointing Evidence for the

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Speaker 1: touch hypothesis. Uh So, so it's asking this question, where

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Speaker 1: does pointing come from in development? What developmental process leads

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Speaker 1: to the pointing gesture. So the authors here claim that

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Speaker 1: because pointing is so foundational in social communication, quote, determining

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Speaker 1: the origin of pointing is therefore essential to our understanding

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Speaker 1: of human language and uniqueness. And yet up to now

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Speaker 1: we have known next to nothing about where it comes from.

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Speaker 1: Now this doesn't mean nobody has ever thought about the

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Speaker 1: issue before this study. There have been a number of

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Speaker 1: hypotheses that researchers have put out there, uh about you know,

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Speaker 1: good guesses about where pointing might come from and what

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Speaker 1: kinds of process is an infancy lead to it? And

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Speaker 1: one of the main ones has been the idea of

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Speaker 1: the reaching hypothesis. So this hypothesis goes like this, Um,

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Speaker 1: what if pointing grows naturally out of a child's reaching

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Speaker 1: for objects they want. So, imagine a child reaching out

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Speaker 1: for something. You know, Uh, the child wants a cookie.

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Speaker 1: She wants to reach her hand out and grasp it,

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Speaker 1: but it is beyond an arm's length, and then so

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Speaker 1: she's reaching out for it, she can't reach it. But then,

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Speaker 1: of course the god's interfere a parent steps in and

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Speaker 1: gives her the things she wants, hands the cookie to her. Now, children,

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Speaker 1: it's hypothesized that over time you know, kind of like

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Speaker 1: a rat in a skinner box, a child will ritualize

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Speaker 1: themselves to reach a handout toward a desired object through

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Speaker 1: operant conditioning. So you know, the way operant conditioning would

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Speaker 1: work in a skinner box or any kind of lab

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Speaker 1: experiment is that like a mouse doesn't need to know

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Speaker 1: why pressing a button gets it a food pellet, it

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Speaker 1: just does. And likewise, a child doesn't need to understand

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Speaker 1: at first why reaching toward an object far away often

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Speaker 1: ends up with that object in their hands. It just

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Speaker 1: works through operant conditioning, and the conditioning takes hold and

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Speaker 1: encourages the behavior. But the authors here note that there

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Speaker 1: there are several reasons this hypothesis is probably not correct

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Speaker 1: for pointing uh or at least this version of the

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Speaker 1: hypothesis uh it at least fails to account for the

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Speaker 1: major type of pointing in question. So remember the difference

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Speaker 1: we talked about in the last episode. I think parents

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Speaker 1: will probably be familiar with this, the difference between imperative

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Speaker 1: pointing and declarative pointing. Remember, imperative is the kind of

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Speaker 1: pointing of I want that is usually done with an

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Speaker 1: open hand, and it's to get an object that would

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Speaker 1: be kind of like what we're just talking about with

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Speaker 1: reaching for something you want versus a very different kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Declarative pointing also known as informative pointing, which

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Speaker 1: is look at that. It's the the explicit attempt to

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Speaker 1: direct someone's attention to an object, rather than, you know,

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Speaker 1: a request to get the object into your hand. And

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Speaker 1: there's plenty of evidence that these two types of pointing

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Speaker 1: are acquired at different stages of development. Not surprisingly, imperative

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Speaker 1: pointing comes first, and the authors here say that the

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Speaker 1: reaching hypothesis might account for imperative pointing, but not for

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Speaker 1: what they call a declarative or what they call informative pointing. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Since children use imperative points to have things handed to

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Speaker 1: them rather than simply to direct attention, imperative points are

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Speaker 1: produced with an open hand rather than a single index finger,

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Speaker 1: and they feature significantly less vocalizations and joint attention than

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Speaker 1: prototypical pointing gestures. Uh and I thought that was interesting too,

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Speaker 1: like that. Uh that Apparently having like the look at

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Speaker 1: that type pointing, the informative pointing is tends to be

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Speaker 1: accompanied more by vocal as a aations about what you're

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Speaker 1: pointing at. Which I would have expected kind of the opposite.

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Speaker 1: I would have expected more noises to be made during

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Speaker 1: the like give me that reaching I guess, I guess

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Speaker 1: they give me that reaching is. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: more direct, right, it's like that me want you know,

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Speaker 1: like bring that to me, that to me, um, put

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Speaker 1: that in my mouth kind of a thing. Whereas if

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Speaker 1: you're gesturing to a bird, it's like, what about that bird?

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Speaker 1: What am I looking for? What is my you know,

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Speaker 1: how are we relating to this? You're saying we should

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Speaker 1: try and catch it? We should just stare at it?

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Speaker 1: Is it? Is it? Something good about it? Something bad

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Speaker 1: about it? Something it's doing something, you know, intrinsic to

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Speaker 1: just what it is. You know, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of additional questions that arise. Yeah, that's right. The pointing

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Speaker 1: gesture is is far more ambiguous and and could go

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Speaker 1: in a lot more directions. The imperative pointing is much simpler. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. Imperative gesture towards say a cupcake,

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Speaker 1: there it is. There's no question what is desired there, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the color of the frosting,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, how often does that happen. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: in the case of the study, we're more curious about

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Speaker 1: where the later kind of pointing comes from. The informative

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Speaker 1: or declarative. Look at that pointing usually with the index

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Speaker 1: finger instead of the whole hand outstretched. Um So, the

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Speaker 1: next hypothesis that they talk about is the imitation hypothesis.

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Speaker 1: This one is pretty common sensical. The idea is that

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Speaker 1: pointing originates in children imitating the pointing that their parents do.

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Speaker 1: So you see parents pointing and then children start doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing. That makes sense. I mean, we assume

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Speaker 1: that children learn language by listening to parents and other

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Speaker 1: adults talk, and they pick it up that way, So

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Speaker 1: why not learn this type of communication by imitating their parents.

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Speaker 1: It's very common sensical. But the evidence we have indicates

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Speaker 1: that this is pretty much totally wrong for declarative pointing.

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Speaker 1: Um So, if children pointed by imitation of their parents,

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Speaker 1: for one thing, you would expect to see more cross

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Speaker 1: cultural variation in how children pick up pointing. An anthropologists

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Speaker 1: do not see this cross cultural variation and how how

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Speaker 1: children pick up pointing. There are like sort of pointing

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Speaker 1: cultures and different conventions of pointing among adults in different cultures,

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Speaker 1: but there doesn't seem to be a lot of variation

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Speaker 1: about how pointing starts to happen in young children. That

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I guess part of it

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Speaker 1: comes it's one of these things with childhood development, like

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Speaker 1: has it you'd have to carry out like a pointing

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Speaker 1: free child rearing process as an experiment, And how would

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Speaker 1: you even begin to do that, How would you have

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Speaker 1: the commitment to do that? Yeah, totally. Now you can

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Speaker 1: look at it the other way, And actually, I will

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Speaker 1: look at a study like this in a second. Not

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Speaker 1: so not someone trying to create a pointing free environment

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Speaker 1: for a child, but trying to train a child with

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Speaker 1: lots of exposure to pointing to see what that does. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll look at that in just a second. But first,

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Speaker 1: just to to quote the authors of the study we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, uh, you know, first of all, they say,

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Speaker 1: the more morphology of early childhood pointing seems pretty much universal.

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Speaker 1: It's like the extended index finger point with they say,

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Speaker 1: with infants in all cultures pointing pretty much the same

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Speaker 1: way and around the same time and development. So this

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Speaker 1: really makes it seem like it's not based on uh,

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Speaker 1: imitating little variations in how adults in your culture point.

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Speaker 1: But beyond that, they say, you know, if kids pick

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Speaker 1: up informative pointing by mimicking their parents in naturalistic contexts,

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Speaker 1: you might expect that deliberate attempts to expose young children

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Speaker 1: to lots of pointing gestures would accelerate their adoption of pointing.

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Speaker 1: Right that, like that, they would start to point more

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Speaker 1: and earlier if the adults around them do a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of pointing to train them. And does this happen? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is what I was just talking about. A study

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Speaker 1: from twelve actually looked into this. It was by Daniel Matthews,

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Speaker 1: Tanya Baine, Elena Levin, and Michael Tomasello in Developmental Science

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Speaker 1: from and this that he had mothers performed daily training

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Speaker 1: with pointing fur their infants, and these would be infants

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Speaker 1: of nine, ten or eleven months of age. And then

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Speaker 1: this was compared with a control group of infants of

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Speaker 1: the same ages who got daily musical training for the

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Speaker 1: same amount of time. And the researchers here found that

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Speaker 1: quote infants ability to point with the index finger at

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Speaker 1: the end of the study was not affected by the training,

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Speaker 1: but was instead predicted by infants prior ability to follow

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Speaker 1: the gaze direction of an adult. And they say that

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Speaker 1: quote this suggests that prior social cognitive advances, rather than

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Speaker 1: adults socialization of pointing per se, determine the developmental onset

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Speaker 1: of indexical pointing. So there are some variations in in

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Speaker 1: the adoption of pointing, but it seems like one of

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Speaker 1: the main factors informing that is something about like how

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Speaker 1: well a child follows where an adult is looking naturally

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Speaker 1: and things like that, that not how much pointing they

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Speaker 1: see happening around them. Okay, so anyway, that makes it

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Speaker 1: look like the imitation of adult pointing is probably not

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Speaker 1: the best or main explanation for what's going on with

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Speaker 1: the uh with with children picking up pointing gestures on

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Speaker 1: their own. So what else could explain it? Well, the

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Speaker 1: authors here they present an alternative hypothesis. They say that

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Speaker 1: declarative or informative pointing originates in the desire to touch things. Well,

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Speaker 1: it is true that children do love to touch things.

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Speaker 1: A lot of energy has to go into reminding them

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Speaker 1: not to touch things. You take them to an art museum,

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Speaker 1: you take them, uh or even to you know today,

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Speaker 1: with a lot of I'm sure a number of parents

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Speaker 1: are encountering. This is where having to do more and

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Speaker 1: more uh teles schooling, more and more screen time to

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Speaker 1: help them, you know, hang out with friends and and

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Speaker 1: actually get their education. Sometimes they're using their their parents

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Speaker 1: computers and we have to remind them, oh, you don't

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Speaker 1: actually have to touch the screen. It's not a touch screen.

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Speaker 1: And also and and you could actually hurt the screen

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Speaker 1: by tapping on it like this. Uh So, yeah, kids

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Speaker 1: are very tactile for sure, Yes, totally. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: the authors here talk about this. They talk about the

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Speaker 1: it's a it's especially common in young children to want

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Speaker 1: to not just sample something by one sense at a time,

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Speaker 1: but to have multiple coordinated sensory experiences of an object. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: one of the main ones is to coordinate visual and

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Speaker 1: haptic information gathering. You want to look at and touch something,

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Speaker 1: and so like the idea of an art museum where

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Speaker 1: you can't touch the paintings is naturally counterintuitive to young children. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean in a sense, you know, they're they're in

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Speaker 1: kind of a different sense realm, you know. There you

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Speaker 1: have to think of them as kind of like little

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Speaker 1: alien probes that have landed on another world and they

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Speaker 1: need to collect all of this data. So while you know,

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Speaker 1: you and I we can go to uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: an art museum or a museum full of like ancient artifacts,

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Speaker 1: and we're totally fine not touching everything. We we have

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Speaker 1: a general idea what it would feel if we did,

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Speaker 1: but you do not necessarily the case with the child

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Speaker 1: and uh. And it is wonderful to see so many

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Speaker 1: museums these days, uh incorporating some sort of touch exhibit

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Speaker 1: for the younger children so as to you know, understanding

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Speaker 1: that they must touch something. So here, here is something

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Speaker 1: you can touch to get a literally get a feel

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Speaker 1: for it. Well, I don't know, maybe I'm about to

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Speaker 1: reveal something about my own infantile mentality, but I, uh,

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Speaker 1: I actively have to resist to the desire to touch

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Speaker 1: when I go into museums and I'm looking at sculptures

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Speaker 1: and stuff. I don't know if other adults are like

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Speaker 1: this and they just don't talk about it. Uh, maybe

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Speaker 1: this reveals something about me. But like when I, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was recently last year, I was at the Louver

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to touch the sculptures. I had to

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Speaker 1: like keep reminding myself, like, you can't touch that huh. Now,

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Speaker 1: I wonder I wonder where it comes from though, and

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Speaker 1: you specifically, because on one hand, there is this what

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Speaker 1: we were talking about here, the childlike desire to touch uh,

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Speaker 1: just the human need for sensory information about something. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, I wonder if it is tied

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Speaker 1: at all to uh, something that Christian I did an

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Speaker 1: episode about years ago, the call of the void, you know,

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Speaker 1: the desire to do the thing that is prohibited, such

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Speaker 1: as touch the mona Lisa or or what have you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I also do experience that sometimes,

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Speaker 1: like just like a taboo is presented and you have

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Speaker 1: that instinct to violated automatically, which you have to resist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of both, who knows. I will

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Speaker 1: say that I feel like my intuitive desire to touch

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Speaker 1: things tends to be correlated to um to how ancient

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Speaker 1: and mysterious they are. Yeah. Yeah, I I could definitely

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Speaker 1: can definitely get that. When you see like a you know,

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Speaker 1: a piece of art that is thousands of years old,

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Speaker 1: there is a there is this this feeling that you

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Speaker 1: know you do want to touch it. There is a

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Speaker 1: desire to engage with it physically by confessing all this,

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to give you other adults out there

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Speaker 1: license to go in museums and touch things. Don't touch

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Speaker 1: the sculptures, folks. Human remains are another one. I think

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Speaker 1: when when there are actual human remains in a in

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Speaker 1: some sort of an exhibit, there is this sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe slightly ghoulish, you know, feeling like you

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Speaker 1: want to touch this thing that was once a part

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Speaker 1: of a living being. You know, yeah, totally, I want

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Speaker 1: to touch the mummy. It's true. I mean, though, I

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Speaker 1: think that kind of thing makes a lot more sense

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Speaker 1: for children because when you're when you're a young child,

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Speaker 1: you're not just I mean, when when you're a young child,

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Speaker 1: coordinating visual and haptic feedback is actually informative. You are

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Speaker 1: learning things from that that I think an adult touching

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Speaker 1: a mummy is probably not really learning. When you're a child,

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Speaker 1: you're still trying to coordinate your your relationships of what

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Speaker 1: things look like versus what they feel like, and as

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Speaker 1: an adult you don't need to do that as much anymore.

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Speaker 1: So it's probably less excuse for me. So before anyway,

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Speaker 1: but back to the STU. Before the experiment, the authors

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Speaker 1: think that there was already a bit of good reason

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Speaker 1: for thinking that pointing begins with the touch instinct, and

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Speaker 1: they give some examples based on previous research. For example,

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Speaker 1: I thought this was pretty interesting. They say, quote, children

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Speaker 1: use a prototypical pointing hand shape to explore objects, tactually

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Speaker 1: from as early as six months, and as the frequency

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Speaker 1: of pointing gestures increases from around nine months of age,

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Speaker 1: the frequency of this kind of exploratory touch decreases, suggesting

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Speaker 1: that pointing is somehow taking over from touch. Oh you know,

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Speaker 1: I have to return to the museum for a second here, Joe,

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Speaker 1: because have you ever had this situation? Hopefully you and

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Speaker 1: and listeners out there, hopefully none of you have had

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Speaker 1: this direct experience yourself, But I've seen this happen to

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Speaker 1: other people where you'll have a section of the museum,

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of security there, and someone is

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Speaker 1: pointing at the artwork and they're reprimanded for it. Uh huh, yes,

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Speaker 1: like the point too close. Yeah, And I wonder if

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Speaker 1: part of that is, like again comes down to the

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Speaker 1: idea that you know, what a what is the line

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Speaker 1: between pointing at something and touching it or touching it accidentally?

430
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: But then also perhaps it gets down to a deeper

431
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: connection between pointing and touching. I think that could be

432
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: exactly right. I mean, so like it appears there's this

433
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: correlation as the as the exploratory touching of objects decreases,

434
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: the pointing instinct increases, almost as if you're trading one

435
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: for the other. That that's very interesting to me. There

436
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: there could be a lot of a lot of information

437
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: in that little nugget. I think we should keep that

438
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: in mind as we go forward. Um, should we take

439
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 1: a break before we get into the experiments that the

440
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: researchers did here to test this hypothesis. Yeah, we'll take

441
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: a quick break, but we'll be right back. Alright, we're back.

442
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: Let's get into some experiments. All right. So we've been

443
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: talking about the study from twenty nineteen by O. Madigan

444
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: at All and they're trying to investigate the origins of

445
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: pointing in young children, and and they're advocating a particular

446
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: hypothesis known as the touch hypothesis, that pointing instincts emerge

447
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: from a child's instinct to reach out and touch things. Uh.

448
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: So they came up with a very interesting group of

449
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: experiments to test this. So this is one of those

450
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: where if you'd asked me, you know, how would you

451
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: test for the touch hypothesis? I would think, I don't

452
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: know how on earth would you study that? But the

453
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: designs I thought were really cool. So the first one

454
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: is what they called the reference fixing test. So the

455
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: setup goes like this. You have test subjects, and this

456
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: included both children and adults. They had children at eighteen months,

457
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: at three years, at six years, and adults and they

458
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: had these different groups point at things. For the older subjects,

459
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: there was a game involving marbles hidden under cups, and

460
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: then the cups were on these shelves and the player

461
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: had to point to cups displayed on the shelf. For

462
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: the eighteen month olds that they played a fun a

463
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: little puppet game. So there was a screen and an

464
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: experiment er uh sitting in front of the screen, and

465
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: a puppet would appear from behind the screen and get

466
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: introduced to the child. They'd be like, oh, hey, this

467
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: is you know, Pete the puppet, and then the puppet

468
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: would disappear and reappear from behind a different part of

469
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: the screen and say hello, And then the experimenter would

470
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: pretend not to see the puppet and ask the child

471
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: to help point out where the puppet went, and then

472
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: thank the child for helping once they did point it out.

473
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: And then so the video recorded all these tests, and

474
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: the experimenters used the video analysis to study the angles

475
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: of the children's fingers when they engaged in this kind

476
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 1: of pointing. Now, it's commonly assumed. We talked about this

477
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: assumption in the last episode that when you point to

478
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: something with an outstretched index finger. I think a lot

479
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: of people are kind of you kind of imagine an

480
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: arrow or vector extending out from your finger in the

481
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: direction of the target, and the angle of that arrow

482
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: vector is established by the angle of the length of

483
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: your finger. It's as if your finger just kept extending

484
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: straight out wherever it ended up, pointing would hit the target, right.

485
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: That's the thing, Longler that we were But if pointing

486
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: comes out of an instinct to touch, there might actually

487
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: be a different model that makes more sense. Uh to

488
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: quote the authors here quote. When someone reaches out to

489
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: touch something, the angle of her finger is largely irrelevant.

490
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: It could be horizontal or even vertical. What matters is

491
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: that the fingertip can make contact with the object she

492
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: wishes to touch. If pointing originates in touch, then a

493
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: better predictor of reference ought to be what we call

494
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: the touch line, the vector that runs between a person's

495
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: eye and fingertip while pointing. And it turns out this

496
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: is exactly what the researchers found. They found that for

497
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: all age groups, but especially for eighteen month olds, the

498
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: youngest age group, a more accurate vector to the target

499
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 1: was created by what they call the touch line. So

500
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 1: instead of a straight line following the exact angle of

501
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: the finger when extended, it was this imaginary line going

502
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: from the pointing person's eyes to their fingertip to the object.

503
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: So like if you actually, like had the finger just

504
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: extend out in a straight line, it would often be

505
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: way off target. Interacted. Yeah, this is a great instinct

506
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: to explore in the in the experiment. Yeah, yeah, I

507
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: find myself experimenting with it right now. Like, what's the

508
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: difference between me pointing at this rack of shoes in

509
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: the closet with me here versus reaching for them? Well,

510
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: I think because of some some illusions of perspective, it

511
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: often feels like what you're doing is you're just creating

512
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: a straight vector that extends out along the same angle

513
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: as your finger and goes to the target. But in fact,

514
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: if you take pictures of people when they're pointing, they're

515
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: they're doing something more like creating a line from their

516
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: line of to their fingertip to the object. And actually,

517
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: if you extended the finger vector, it would go way

518
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: off in some other direction, even though it doesn't quite

519
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: feel like that. There's an interesting observation here, they say

520
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: it quote. It may be noted that although the touch

521
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: line is more reliable than the arrow line in all

522
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 1: age groups, the touch line is the most accurate in

523
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: the six year olds rather than the adults, as one

524
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: might expect. However, we suspect this is simply due to

525
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: the six year olds producing their gestures more carefully, while

526
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: the adults were more casual in their engagement with the task,

527
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: which I think is probably true, right, Like when adults point,

528
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: they don't usually take care to be really accurate in pointing.

529
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: As you become older, pointing becomes more and more uh

530
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: slangy yeah yeah. Like I was thinking, like, how often

531
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: do I actually point with my finger at something? Like

532
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: I'm specifically pointing out, say a scone at a bakery,

533
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is the one I want, not

534
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: that one, not that's that one, but this one. Or

535
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: another case would be if I'm trying to point out,

536
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: say a bird in a tree to my son, and

537
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not able to do so, uh, you know,

538
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: with the first couple of reference points, I finally will

539
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: will point my finger, you know, sometimes like like lining

540
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: up my finger, you know, uh, around his head, you know,

541
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: so that he can look down the line of my

542
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: finger and see what I'm talking about. But otherwise I'm

543
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: more likely to be like, hey, look at that tree

544
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: over there, and just sort of casually refer, you know,

545
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: maybe even with multiple fingers to the tree, or even

546
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: with an elbow or something. I feel like that's a

547
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: common casual thing, right, like the sort of twisting of

548
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: the arm, the elbow direction and forearm. Huh. I don't know.

549
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do it myself now, and it feels strange,

550
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: like a chicken arm, like a bock bock box, kind

551
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: of a chicken dancer box. I think sometimes I point

552
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: with an elbow, especially, I think if my hands are

553
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: occupied and I'm standing up and so I see, okay,

554
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: it's like something over there, I'll be like, hey, over there,

555
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: I point with the elbow kind of a shrug elbow

556
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: gesture okay now, or or a nod of the head

557
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: can do something similar. True, if people were videotaping us

558
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: right now, this would be a magical moment. I don't

559
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: know if you're flapping your wings in your closet there,

560
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: I am, um. So there was a second experiment. I

561
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: thought this one was really clever, especially it's since it's

562
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: pretty simple once you actually see it. So it might

563
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: take a minute to picture this correctly, but I'll try

564
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: to do the simple version, the short version. Imagine you're

565
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: sitting somebody across from a box. So you might want

566
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: to imagine like an old BOXYCRT television, right, you know,

567
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: the kind of had depth, and then you have them

568
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 1: point to targets on this box. Now, you could have

569
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: them point to targets that are all on on a TV.

570
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: What would be the screen side, the side facing the participant,

571
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: and they could be in the middle, they could be

572
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: on the left side, they could be on the right side.

573
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: Or what you could do is have some of the

574
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: targets that they need to point out be rotated around

575
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: to the sides of the box, so they need to

576
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: point at a target that would be in the TV analogy,

577
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: on the side of the TV, not on the screen side.

578
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: So they did this test. They you know, had a

579
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: box where you would have to point to things that

580
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: were on the side of the box, and they tested

581
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: this against a control group where the pointing targets were

582
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: just moved to the left or right, but they all

583
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: stayed on the side of the box facing the participant.

584
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: It was just like a two D surface. And what

585
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: was revealed was that compared to control conditions, when the

586
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: target was on the side of the box, people rotated

587
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: their wrists to point at it, rotating the hand and

588
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: exactly the way that they would need to rotate it

589
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: if they were reaching out to touch the target with

590
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: the pad of their index finger. And when I read this,

591
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I've never realized, but

592
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: I think I do that when pointing Sometimes that that

593
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: the orientation of the object to and it changes the

594
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: orientation of my hand. And so like if I would

595
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: have to reach around something to point to something on

596
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, on the side of a three dimensional object,

597
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: I sometimes I think rotate my hand as if I

598
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: would be reaching around to touch the thing with my fingers.

599
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: I think this is exactly right, yeah, or it's almost

600
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: like you are preparing to extend your arm mr elastic style,

601
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: you know, like I need to get the correct curvature

602
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: and angle as if my arm is about to, uh,

603
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: you know, lengthen out and then touch the side of

604
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: the box. Yes, yes, yes, And they said that sometimes

605
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: this even resulted in drastic twisting of the wrist. Quote.

606
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: In some observed instances in the study, the right hand

607
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,719
Speaker 1: was used to point at the left side of the

608
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: box or vice versa, and the participants rotated their wrist

609
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: in a strenuous way through a hundred and eighty degrees

610
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: to match the orientation of the surface that they pointed at.

611
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: So so you can imagine this, like some people have

612
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: a dominant pointing hand and instead of changing hands to

613
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: rotate easily to point at the side that they would like,

614
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: twist their arm all the way around to point with

615
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: the hand upside down so that they could use their

616
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: dominant pointing hand to point in a way in which

617
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: their fingertip could in theory touch the thing they were

618
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: pointing at. Yeah. I think it's very revealing. Uh. And

619
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: then finally there was a third experiment that was that

620
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: wasn't about yourself pointing, but it was about judging the

621
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 1: pointing of others. It was about trying to read pointing

622
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: gestures on pictures of other people. And so they would

623
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: show ambiguous images of pointing gestures which could be interpreted

624
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: as pointing a long and arrow line extending from the

625
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: finger or along a touch line going from the eyes

626
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: to the fingertip to the target. Robert I included in

627
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: an example for you to look at here, and they

628
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: found that quote the eighteen month olds in the three

629
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: year olds were more likely to pick out the cup

630
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: the experiment or was looking at in the touch condition

631
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: than in the arrow condition, whereas the nine year olds

632
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: the opposite was the case. The six year olds did

633
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: not show a clear preference, being a chance in both conditions,

634
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: while the adults were well above chance in both conditions.

635
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: So what they found was that erro interpretations, the idea

636
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: of just like you know, the finger extending out along

637
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: the line, aero interpretations of other people's pointing appear to

638
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: emerge and become stronger later in development, whereas touch interpretations,

639
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: where pointing is the line from your eye to your

640
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: fingertip to the object, those dominate among the younger. So anyway,

641
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: I think these experiments are some pretty compelling evidence that

642
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: that touch, the instinct to reach out and touch things,

643
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: could very well be the basis of the pointing gesture

644
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: as it develops in children. Um and the authors believe,

645
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: of course, the same. They believe all three of their

646
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: tests support the hypothesis, the touch hypothesis. But how exactly

647
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: does this transition from touching to pointing occur? Well, we

648
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: don't know for sure, but they have some thoughts about that.

649
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: So the researchers here think that there could be a

650
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of ritualized operant conditioning at work for informative pointing,

651
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: similar to the kind we thought might be present for

652
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: imperative pointing. But it's just a different process. So so

653
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: we know, of course, we were talking about this earlier.

654
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: When infants are exploring objects in their environment, they often

655
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: coordinate different types of sensory exploration. They coordinate visual and

656
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: haptic information gathering. They look and touch at the same time.

657
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: So it's reasonable to propose that the visual attention of

658
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: adults and parents might also be directed by a child's touch.

659
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: And think about you know, if an adult is attending

660
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: to a child when the infant reaches out to touch

661
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: a toy, the parents also begin to pay attention to

662
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: that particular toy. You know, they're like responding to, Oh,

663
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: this is what you're playing with now, or this is

664
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: what you're looking at now. Uh. And then from this

665
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: the author's right quote, once the child finds that she

666
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: can get an adult to pay attention to something by

667
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: touching it, she may begin to make as if to

668
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: touch things that are slightly further away. Parents recognize which

669
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: object the child is aiming to touch and attend to

670
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: that object. The action, originally designed to allow the infant

671
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: to explore an object with the fingertip, becomes a gesture

672
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: that functions to coordinate the attention of infant an adult

673
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: on an object, and pointing is born. So I think

674
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: that's a very interesting interpretation. Yeah, I find this hypothesis

675
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: very uh, very very convincing. Really, um, yeah, it would

676
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: be interesting to see what kind of further studies are

677
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: are possible here. Well, it makes me think about what

678
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: kinds of implicit cognition are still going on in the

679
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: in the brains of you know, older children and even adults, Like, um,

680
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: when you're pointing at things, is there still some part

681
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: of you that is thinking of pointing as touching, and

682
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: how does that affect the psychology pointing. Like, as we

683
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: were talking about in the last episode, there are definitely

684
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: big taboos about, you know, concerning pointing at People are

685
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: pointing at certain kinds of objects, and typically, you know,

686
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: the kinds of things that there are taboos about pointing

687
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: at are things for which there is supposed to be

688
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: some kind of decorum or respect, Like the inanimate objects

689
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: that in some cultures you're not supposed to point out

690
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: would be in some way sacred or holy objects, maybe

691
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: sacred types of animals, or you know, really religiously significant objects. Whereas,

692
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: of course, you know, there's a reason that you're supposed

693
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: to afford respect to other humans, which is why you

694
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: don't point at them with an extended index finger. It

695
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: could be that there's some kind of taboo about uh

696
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: imagined touching that's going on there. Yeah, you have you

697
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: have truly to point at someone is to in a

698
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: sense lay hands on them. Uh then then yeah, it

699
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: would be a huge taboo against that. It makes me

700
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: think about the um you know, there are a few

701
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 1: different taboos uh in in Thai culture, concerning shoes and feet.

702
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: And and one that that I remember is um a

703
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: taboo against pointing at especially at individuals with the foot um,

704
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: which which is all the more you know, convincing when

705
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: you when you think about what that means in a

706
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: light of these studies, like to point at somebody with

707
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: your foot is essentially to to to touch them with

708
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: your foot. And and therefore, yeah, you can you can

709
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: very very well see how there could that could be

710
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: interpreted as a highly disrespectful gesture. Yeah, that's very interesting,

711
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: But it also makes me think about when it goes

712
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: the other way, when there are ways of um blunting

713
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: the the negative power or the psychological impact or taboo

714
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: of pointing just by not pointing with the extended index fingers.

715
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: So there's some amount of pointing that seems to that

716
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: seems to be naturally associated with touching, uh, no matter

717
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: what kind of body part you're using. But then maybe

718
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: there's there's more of that salience in it's the extended

719
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: index finger and thus like there's less of a taboo

720
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: of of pointing at people if you just do it

721
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: with your arm or with an open hand, because that

722
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: feels less like the infant exploratory touch impulse, right, um, yeah, absolutely.

723
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: It also brings to mind like the ways we greet

724
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: each other. Uh, you know, handshake is a little bit

725
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: further down down from this, but in terms of indicating,

726
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: we already talked about nodding, and that from there there

727
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: we can we can easily go to the realm of

728
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: various ceremonial forms of bowing and bowing as greeting, uh,

729
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: such as such as is used as in Thai culture.

730
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: In fact um, and that seems like a very yeah.

731
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could you could extrapolated and

732
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: compare it to a head butt, I guess. But for

733
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: the most part, I feel like like bowing, uh, tipping

734
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: your head to someone in a form of greeting. You know,

735
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's largely free of the you know, implicit

736
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: pokiness of the the index finger or a or the kick, uh,

737
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: the implicit kick that comes with gesturing with your your foot, uh,

738
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Here's something I just want to

739
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: test your intuitions on. What do you think or the

740
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: differing connotations of acknowledging a person with an upward nod

741
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: versus acknowledging them with a downward nod. I mean, you

742
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about. I guess the downward nod

743
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: could be interpreted as being judgmental or being, you know,

744
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: a nod of agreement, whereas the upward nod is more

745
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: just hey, uh, you know hello, So exactly, Yeah, I

746
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: don't know one just one just feels more like a

747
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: commentary on what one is observing, and the other one

748
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: feels a lot more just uh an observation or maybe

749
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: we'll have to come back to that. Yeah, I mean,

750
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: of course, in all of these you know, obviously there's

751
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: there are so many additional cultural layers that that one

752
00:41:55,040 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: could unravel. Um, So yeah, I'm not sure exactly what

753
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: the answer would be here if we attempt to answer

754
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: this from a global perspective, because you know, what's the

755
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: different So, for instance, within a culture where bowing is

756
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: is a part of of of traditional regular or formal greetings,

757
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: than than nod, is an odd going to have a

758
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: different weight, Is it going to have a different place

759
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: in um, you know, cultural interactions versus a culture that

760
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: does not have bowing as part of its traditions. Well,

761
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: this is very interesting because this kind of brings me

762
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: to the next thing. I wanted to talk about, which

763
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: was one study I was looking at about cultural variation

764
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: among types of pointing that that humans do. Um, So

765
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: we already talked extensively about the fact that, you know,

766
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: studies have found pointing gestures are pretty much universal phenomena

767
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: in human culture. All cultures point, but there are some

768
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: differences in how exactly we point, or how exactly what

769
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: exact types of pointing are most prevalent within a culture.

770
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: You know, we we we talked about how the extended

771
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: index finger seems to be the most common for especially

772
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: certain kinds of pointing, but like, why not the middle finger,

773
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: why not the thumb? You know, any of these things

774
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: of course could function as a pointing gesture, and there

775
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: have been different ideas about this over time. One is

776
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: that maybe it's just that the natural resting posture of

777
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: the hand, with the muscles and tendons and all that,

778
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: tends to make the the extended index finger the easiest

779
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: thing to point with. You can kind of see this

780
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: in just the way human hands, uh sit when they're

781
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: totally relaxed. Often the index finger is kind of raised

782
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: above the other ones. Well, I mean, mainly I just

783
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: come down to the fact that the index finger is

784
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: the more versatile finger. Like if someone is just beginning

785
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: to type and they are hunting and pecking, they're not hunking,

786
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: hunting and pecking with their middle finger. They're not hunting

787
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: and pecking with their pinky or their ring finger. They're

788
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: using their index finger. Like that is the one. If

789
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna scrape some paint off of something, you're to

790
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: use your index finger and its fingernail. Like it's it

791
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: seems to be the most versatile of the digits. Yeah,

792
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: and I think so. I mean, it's like it's it

793
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: is the most accurate part of one of the defining

794
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: properties of the human primate, you know, the precision grip

795
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: where the index finger and the thumb come together. The

796
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,959
Speaker 1: index finger is a little more precise than the thumb,

797
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: is right, Yeah, I mean that's why it is the

798
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: trigger finger. Yeah, that is why the thing it is

799
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: the finger that is traditionally sent into the nostril. H

800
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it is. It is the the exploratory digit.

801
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: But you ever see people pick their nose with the

802
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: pinky and that's fun. Well, I guess the well that

803
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: does make sense from a certain standpoints is it is

804
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: the smaller of the of the fingers. Yes, uh huh,

805
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: but I don't recall seeing it offhand, but it makes sense,

806
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Like I'm not going to question that as a as

807
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: a you know, you know taboos aside is being just

808
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: a very sensible choice. But there are different kinds of

809
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: pointing that are more favored by different cultures around the world.

810
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: Like there are some cultures where lip pointing can be

811
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: found in a fairly prominent way, um, there there are

812
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: other cultures where apparently nose pointing not only exists but

813
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: is is pretty popular. If you're trying to imagine it.

814
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 1: This is kind of a way of pointing by scrunching

815
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: the face and sort of pointing with the scrunch to nose. Um.

816
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: And in fact, I know this is this is mainly

817
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: identified as being popular in uh, for example, specific language

818
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: cultures of Papua New Guinea, which we'll talk about in

819
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 1: the second. But I feel like I've done something like

820
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: this in my life, the scrunched nose face point. I

821
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: think it has happened. Well, I can't really speak to

822
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: the scrunching of the nose, but certainly we're talking about

823
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: the you know, nodding up or down. And I think

824
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: if we get more specific about our analysis of these, uh,

825
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: these facial head gestures, we might realize that, Okay, am

826
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: I actually is it really my head that is the

827
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: focal point? Or am I in fact um gesturing with

828
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: my chin or my nose or some other you know,

829
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: specific point on my face. Yeah, that's that's a good point.

830
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: So I wanted to talk about a specific study I

831
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: was looking at called the preference for pointing with the

832
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: hand is not Universal. This was published in the journal

833
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: Cognitive Science in eighteen. Uh. The lead author here was

834
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: somebody I referred to in the last episode who I

835
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: had watched a presentation that he gave about a bunch

836
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: of different kinds of pointing gesture research. But so the

837
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: it's by a Kinsey Cooper writer James Slata, and Raphael

838
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: nun Yez. And this study had a basic sort of

839
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: like moving and stacking of objects task where you would

840
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: take people and you would have one person direct another

841
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: person in how to place some objects around in a space,

842
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: like where to put things, where to stack them. And

843
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: they tested this among us participants, but then also among

844
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: the yep know, people of Papua New Guinea and what

845
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 1: they found was that speakers in both groups UH used

846
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: plenty of pointing, but there were different preferences in what

847
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: types and shapes of pointing the different groups had. They

848
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: say quote. Whereas the US participants exhibited a clear strong

849
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: preference for manual pointing pointing with the finger, the yup

850
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: Know made balanced use of both non manual and manual forms,

851
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: with no significant preference between the two. And Robert, I've

852
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: got a couple of graphs for you to look at here.

853
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: When you see the data represented, it's very clear that

854
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: like US participants do almost all of their pointing with

855
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: the hand. The hand is clearly favored UM depending on

856
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: other conditions. Among the Upno people, it seems, you know,

857
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: maybe half and half or so roughly half is with

858
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: the hand, but then there's this other strong preference for

859
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: especially pointing with the scrunched snow's gesture. And this difference

860
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: is really interesting, and the authors were trying to account

861
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: for why exactly the would be like, what would cause

862
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: the difference between the cultures. One possible explanation that they

863
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: give is that they say quote. Throughout New Guinea there

864
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: is an emphasis on controlling the broadcasting of communication. UH

865
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: and examples they give here would be a tendency toward circumspection,

866
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: whispering uh inggressive speech, which which is a term for

867
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: speaking while inhaling uh and they write quote. Non Manual

868
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: pointing may thus be part of a repertoire of bodily

869
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: techniques that reduce the broadcasting of communicative signals, as indeed

870
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 1: some yep No consultants have suggested to us another yep

871
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: No cultural model that may bear on gestural behavior is

872
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: the idea of the easy going person or I'm not

873
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: sure how to pronounce this word, but it is spelled

874
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: y a w o r i or a yaw worri,

875
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: and this basically means a person who is not overactive,

876
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: who's not aggressive, but who is calm and contained in

877
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: a sense a kind of cool illness that there is

878
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: a a cultural value to among many people's of New Guinea.

879
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: So it could be that some variations in cultural values

880
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: about what kind of persona and affect it's admirable to project, like,

881
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: you know, the person who is cool and easy going

882
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: in this way, that might influence whether you would point

883
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: with a certain part of your body or another the

884
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: same way. And maybe American culture that certain values about

885
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 1: how how it looks, you know, how you can look cool,

886
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: would would influence whether you point with your chin or

887
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: point with a finger. Yeah, that's a very good point.

888
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: But then there are also some practical considerations that might

889
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: explain part of this difference. So, for example, you can't

890
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: point with a finger when your hands are occupied. The

891
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: author's right quote. Manual availability could also affect a community's

892
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: pointing preferences on cultural historical time scales in communities where

893
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: the hands are commonly occupied while communicating, so maybe during

894
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 1: activities like food processing on manual gesturing could become more

895
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: frequent and eventually carry over to times when the hands

896
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 1: are free. That makes sense. If I'm carrying a weapon

897
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: and I'm hunting, i can't speak with my hands they

898
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: are otherwise engaged, right, And there there could be all

899
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: kinds of tasks where among certain cultures, like you know,

900
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: you would be using your hands while you're pointing at

901
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: something to indicate something to somebody else. If you're you know,

902
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: cooking together, processing or or preparing food together, doing all

903
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: kinds of things. You know. Another thing is that they

904
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: say manual pointing, you know, using the finger to point

905
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 1: is considered more precise than facial or other non manual pointing,

906
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: but also less effortful. Uh So, in cultures where precision

907
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: pointing is less often required, say if you are not

908
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: often pointing to a small object distant on the horizon,

909
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: or to a small element within a media display or

910
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: something like that, the efficiency of movement may overtake the

911
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: need for precision and pointing. And the author's right quote

912
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: note that if indeed, you Know speakers observe a principle

913
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: of least effort when pointing, the interesting question becomes not

914
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: why you know speakers often avoid manual pointing, but why

915
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: English speakers so often over extend themselves, Like, why why

916
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: do English speakers have this tendency do waste more effort

917
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: using the hand to point something when that amount of

918
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: precision is not necessary? Yeah, Like if you're engaging in

919
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: a great deal of gesticulation while talking, Yeah, a lot

920
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: of it is um perhaps overly boisterous, you know. Yeah,

921
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: And this is of course something that's very important to

922
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: remember whenever you're studying like cultural differences in communication or

923
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: gestures or something like that, to not think of it

924
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: in terms of Okay, here's how my culture does things.

925
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 1: That this other culture does things a different way. Why

926
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: are they weird? The question is not why are they weird? Right,

927
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: because they're not weird. It's just like, what explains the difference? Yeah, yeah, exactly,

928
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: I mean all of it, all of it's weird, right, Well,

929
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: of course, yeah it is weird, and that everyone's weird. Yeah.

930
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: But then this last explanation that they gave as a

931
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 1: possible reason here I thought was very interesting. They say

932
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 1: that precision pointing is less necessary when it's accompanied by

933
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: languages that offer more precision in terms of spatial location

934
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: with words alone. And this is a really interesting possibility.

935
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: It could have to do specifically with the Yepno language.

936
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: They say that the Yepno language quote boasts a highly

937
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: elaborated demonstrative system involving uphill downhill distinctions and a three

938
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: way distance contrast. Such spatially specific demonstratives were used pervasively

939
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: by yep No speakers in our task, whereas U S

940
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,919
Speaker 1: speakers only had the comparatively blunt English demonstratives. Of this

941
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 1: versus that to work with speakers of languages that habitually

942
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 1: provide increased spatial precision in their spoken demonstratives, such as

943
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: yup know might have less need for spatial precision in

944
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 1: the pointing gestures that often accompany those demonstratives. So it

945
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 1: it may be that it's the fact that the yup

946
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: No language apparently has a richer, more elaborate, and more

947
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: specific lexicon of words and sort of spatial grammar for

948
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,720
Speaker 1: indicating exactly where and what kind of object you're talking about,

949
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: So precision in pointing is less necessary because you can

950
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: point more with words than you can in English. Oh,

951
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: now that is interesting. Uh And and this highlights and

952
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: other things very interesting about different languages, the way that

953
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: space is conceptualized differently in different languages. Yup know is

954
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: an example here where I was looking at some other

955
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: writings about this language that has uh he the study

956
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: mentioned this, this distinction between uphill and downhill. Apparently that's

957
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: just like a common thing for representing all kinds of

958
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: spaces that in English we would not usually think of

959
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: as uphill or downhill. But say, like within a house,

960
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: the door is I don't remember which way it was,

961
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: but like you would just naturally conceptualize the door as

962
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: either uphill or downhill of the rest of the house.

963
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: And there are just lots of other like implicit slope

964
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: associations for describing space that they give them all these

965
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: different ways to sort of specify exactly what region they're

966
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: talking about that are not conventional in English. So it's

967
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 1: all just a good reminder that that pointing, gesticulation, these

968
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: things do not exist in a vacuum. They exist, of course,

969
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: within a culture, but they also exist alongside language. And

970
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: we have to, you know, consider how spoken language UH

971
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: is involved in cultural tendencies. Right, exactly what you can

972
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: do with language influences what you need what you need

973
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: to accomplish with pointing, and vice versa. What you can

974
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,720
Speaker 1: do with pointing can also influence what kind of words

975
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: you need to use, and so there's definitely a codependent

976
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 1: kind of feedback system going on there. Right on that note,

977
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: we're going to take one more quick break, but when

978
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 1: we come back, we're going to discuss technology. Thank alright,

979
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: we're back. So we've been talking about pointing, and now

980
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: we wanted to make the transition to digital technology. Yeah,

981
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: digital because we're talking about digits, right, Um, I do

982
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting that we see this emphasis

983
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: on pointing continue on through our technology. So if we

984
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: if we think of the finger is our base system

985
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: for this sort of activity. Then the next obvious place

986
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: is just simple tool use right, a stick or an

987
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 1: otherwise specialized tool, So I just say a knife or

988
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: even a sword or a spear or something, or for

989
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: a more modern example of something like a chalk piece

990
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 1: of chalk, or or a marker for a marker board.

991
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: We end up we can use these things as uh

992
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: pointing implements, or we might depend on a specialized pointer,

993
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: say a a stick that we that serves no other

994
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: real purpose except for pointing at things. Yeah, that's funny.

995
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: I hadn't even really thought about that much in this

996
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: episode yet, but that's huge. Yeah, when the teacher points

997
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: with chalk, that sort of becomes a new finger. Yeah,

998
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: and I mean this also brings in a whole host

999
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: of new considerations we talked about. If pointing is touching,

1000
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: then what we are pointing with and how we are

1001
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: pointing with our fingers that influences the way that the

1002
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: point is received. Likewise, how do we receive it when

1003
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: someone points at us or at something we created or

1004
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: what have you with a stick or a weapon, or

1005
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: a piece of chalk or a marker or even a

1006
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: specialized pointer. How does that alter our relationship between ourselves

1007
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 1: and others, between ourselves and things in our environment. So

1008
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: we've all seen a designated pointer before. Uh. They can

1009
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: be simple that, they can be ornate, they can be

1010
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: made out of would they might be metallic and telescopic

1011
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 1: in construction. Uh. You know frequently you'll see these used

1012
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: during presentations, right when one is presenting material on a blackboard,

1013
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 1: a marker board, or some sort of a map. Yeah,

1014
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: it's often in the scene in movies where the masters

1015
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: of war looking at a map to you know, talk

1016
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: about some kind of battle or advance or something, and

1017
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: they've got that telescoping metal pointer. I've never had one

1018
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: of those. Would be cool to have one. They always

1019
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: look really cool, don't they. But but of course, in

1020
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: all this we also get into this gray area of

1021
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: of not only ancient pointing, but items of indication. So

1022
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: consider the scepter, for example, which traditionally is, you know,

1023
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 1: accept is the thing you hold in your hand that

1024
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: may not have any other real world purpose to it.

1025
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: It indicates status, it indicates power, and there have been

1026
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: connections to traditions as for instance, in some cultures, a

1027
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: shepherd's crook is considered to be a possible predecessor to

1028
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 1: the scepter. It's something that indicates status in a in

1029
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, in an actual trade, and then that carries

1030
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: over into some sort of a a regal role, uh

1031
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: In in other cultures, connections have been made between a

1032
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: holy scepter and a backscratcher. So here's the thing that

1033
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: had a purpose, but now it has become this thing

1034
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: that is more about just a signifier of status. This

1035
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: thing about the scepter is making me think back to

1036
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: that William Blake painting we talked about in the last

1037
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: episode where God is judging at him and he's pointing

1038
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: at him, and if you look closely it it appears

1039
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: he's holding some kind of wander scepter in his hand

1040
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: that extends out to Adam's head basically, but it's kind

1041
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: of hard for me to see the scepter. It just

1042
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: looks like his finger or some kind of ray of

1043
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: light is extending out and going straight into Adam's skull. Yeah. Yeah,

1044
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: And this we are getting into the idea of the rod,

1045
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: the verge, and of course the wand so in addition

1046
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: to any magical powers we might attribute to a rod

1047
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: or a verrg or wand we're ultimately talking about a

1048
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: stick that can be used for reaching, for pointing, for

1049
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: drawing in the dust and sand, for directing people about.

1050
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: So you know, when you really start to think about

1051
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: all those specialized uses for it, it actually sounds pretty

1052
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 1: magical in its own right. Again, this is an object

1053
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 1: that you you point at somebody with it, and you

1054
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: instantly command their attention, and then you point across the

1055
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: room and you can instantly draw their attention from themselves

1056
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: to that. You can use it to create um images

1057
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: of the world in the dust, or to inscribe symbolic

1058
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: meaning into the dust. Like, this is a pretty magical item.

1059
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: You don't even need to have lightning bolts coming out

1060
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I mean, we talked in the last

1061
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: episode about how pointing is a form of much alike

1062
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: language is a form of mind control. We don't often

1063
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: appreciate this, but like, uh, there's some studies that show

1064
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: that pointing is nearly irresistible. When somebody points, you just

1065
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: kind of have to look. It's really hard to resist

1066
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: that temptation, and it just captures your mind that way. Yeah,

1067
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: And so there's a long tradition of magical items that

1068
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: are used in pointed for pointing in both mythology and

1069
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: then of course later in fiction. But for an old

1070
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 1: example this consider in the Iliad Homer rights of the

1071
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: gods in their magical rods, specifically the rods of Hermes,

1072
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: Athena and Searcy. So these are magical items or items

1073
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 1: of focus through which they work their power. Something you

1074
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: might point at, say a bunch of sailors, and then

1075
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: turn them into pigs with almost Maybe I'm getting too metaphorical,

1076
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: but it almost mirrors the way that you can turn

1077
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: somebody into a pig by controlling their attention in the

1078
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: right way. You know you can. You can really kind

1079
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 1: of alter somebody's nature by making them pay attention to

1080
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: what you want them to pay attention to exactly. Uh,

1081
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: here's a fun example to Pointers can also be quite

1082
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: sacred in addition to or innate, So consider the the

1083
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: odd a ceremonial pointer, also known as a torah pointer,

1084
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 1: which in Jewish ritual is a means of following the

1085
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: text in a in a parchment torah scroll during a

1086
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: reading um. Part part of the practice is simply about

1087
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: following lines of texts as you read them, But there's

1088
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 1: also both a supernatural aspect to it and a in

1089
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: a mundane aspect. So one idea is this is a

1090
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: holy text and we should not besmirch it or corrupt

1091
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: it or take away its purity by physically touching it.

1092
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: But also, uh, parchments are susceptible to damage via human fingers,

1093
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: via via the oil or other substances on human fingers,

1094
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: and therefore it makes sense to reduce the amount of

1095
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: contact that one has with a valuable text like this.

1096
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: And so this is where the torah pointer comes in.

1097
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 1: They're typically made of silver, but sometimes other substances are used. Um.

1098
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: And you'll often find this, uh, this, this wand that's

1099
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: basically it's a short wand or rod and it is

1100
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: off and capped with a small hand, a small human

1101
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: hand with an index finger extended. This feels very interesting.

1102
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: Something is going on here, yeah, with the wandes and

1103
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: and the kind of magical power we imbued to the

1104
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: finger pointing, especially within a religion where a text itself

1105
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: takes on such a sacred dimension that like, um, I

1106
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 1: wonder if having a little pointing object in this way

1107
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: is almost like itself an act of of bowing before

1108
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: the text or kind of like showing reverence. Yeah, yeah,

1109
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it makes me want to do a

1110
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: deeper dive or or talk to somebody with with more

1111
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: experience and um uh, you know judaic custom and um

1112
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: inhibriic ritual. But because because I mean the other side

1113
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: of it too is of course, when one is traditionally reading,

1114
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 1: many of you out there listening may do this as well.

1115
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: You may take your index finger and use it to read.

1116
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: You may go line by line with your index finger

1117
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: physically touching the paper. Now Here the question I've never

1118
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: actually considered. I always just assumed that using of the

1119
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: index finger assists in reading comprehension, that people do that

1120
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: because it makes it easier to keep your place and

1121
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: follow along. I still, I guess assume that's probably true.

1122
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: But is that the case? Is it? Is it actually

1123
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 1: practically useful to do that, or is that something that

1124
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,160
Speaker 1: we do out of instinct even though it doesn't affect

1125
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: how our reading comprehension. I don't know. I've never I've

1126
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: never studied it. There may be, may may well be

1127
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: studies about it. I main my main experience with it

1128
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 1: it was, I know, a thing that I used to

1129
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: do either with my finger or with like a bookmark,

1130
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: and I was kind of encouraged not to do that,

1131
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: or you know, it's just the idea was presented that

1132
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: it's better better to read without those kind of uh aids,

1133
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: and then I kind of fell out of it and

1134
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: like then got to the point where I didn't need

1135
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: it anyway. So yeah, I I I don't do that myself,

1136
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: but I don't know. Perhaps that there are people who

1137
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: still read by that, they swear by it and do

1138
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: that their whole lives. Yeah, that's an interesting question to me. Now,

1139
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: maybe we can look for studies about that. Yeah, I mean,

1140
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: typography is also going to be a factor in all

1141
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 1: of this, too, right, I mean, depending on how the

1142
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,439
Speaker 1: words are laid out, it may be easier to read

1143
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: certain text without, um some sort of pointing implement, whereas

1144
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: if you're dealing with a traditional uh you know, holy scroll, Uh,

1145
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: it may just be easier to to use some sort

1146
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 1: of pointing implement to follow your way through it. That

1147
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: makes sense. Now, we've already touched on the laser pointer,

1148
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 1: which continues this tradition into the twentieth century and beyond.

1149
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: But we also have to consider as we reach the

1150
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: end here. The pointer or cursor on a computer, which

1151
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: much like the odd is often presented as a hand

1152
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: with an index finger outstretched. Sometimes it's an arrow, of course,

1153
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: but other times, or at least in some functions, um

1154
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: of the cursor it becomes an index finger. And while

1155
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: a computer mouse is obviously not necessary to control a cursor,

1156
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: we have other means of controlling it. The mouse is

1157
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: an extreme only common interface. And in fact, I was

1158
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: reading a two thousand nine Scientific American article by Larry

1159
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 1: Greenmeyer titled the Origin of the Computer Mouse, and the

1160
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: author refers to the mouse. He may have been quoting

1161
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: someone here, but he refers to the mouse as a

1162
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: pointing device. Well, yeah, I think there's some very interesting

1163
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 1: implied psychology going on here with with user design and

1164
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: and and the pointing gesture. So when you're pointing on

1165
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: a screen, you you might be pointing for the benefit

1166
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: of a third party, but you're often not, like you're

1167
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 1: often just by yourself looking at the screen. And yet

1168
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: you've got to have this thing to identify where it

1169
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: is you want to interact on the screen. And and

1170
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: one thing that that seems very interesting to me, is

1171
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: that it the pointer, the mouse pointer. In most cases,

1172
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 1: to me, it seems that the the little pointer arrow

1173
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: turns into the finger pointing out with the index finger

1174
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: when you're ready to click a link on a web page.

1175
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: So when you want to go somewhere else, that's when

1176
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 1: you point with the finger. Yeah. When you want to

1177
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: essentially push a button, uh, to to activate something, to

1178
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 1: touch something, that's when the finger comes into play. Oh yeah,

1179
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: maybe the going somewhere else is not a significant because

1180
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: I think it's buttons too, right, it's also like radiotomical

1181
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: buttons and things like that. Yeah. And then likewise, sometimes

1182
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: you have like the full hand for grabbing things and

1183
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: dragging things around, right, right, that's the that's the imperative

1184
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: pointing from from infancy. Yeah, give me that. So anyway,

1185
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: bring and bring all this up is kind of just

1186
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: a consideration of where we've continued to go and just

1187
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 1: how deeply ingrained uh, pointing and touching with the index finger,

1188
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 1: how how all of that is key to not only

1189
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: the human experience, but then the human experience as it

1190
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,959
Speaker 1: is it continues to take on the form of technology.

1191
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: I'd be very interested to see some more studies about

1192
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: how how digital representations of control such as the mouse

1193
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: pointer are incorporated into extended body schema that we am at.

1194
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: And you know, the same way that we incorporate physical

1195
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: tools into our imagination of our extended body. Surely there's

1196
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 1: some degree to which we do that with things that

1197
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: are not even in physical space, but they're representational tools

1198
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: on a screen. Yeah. Yeah, to remind everybody, body schema

1199
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 1: is basically your mental idea of what your body is,

1200
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: what its limits are, and when we engage in tool use,

1201
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: we update our body schema. So if one you know,

1202
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: you might have heard the saying, it's like, okay, this

1203
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: tool becomes an extension of my body. The sword becomes

1204
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: an extension of my body. That is very much what

1205
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: is happening when it when a sword or some other

1206
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: kind of tool is incorporated into our body schema. All right,

1207
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 1: well there you have it. Our two part look at

1208
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: pointing in our you know, attempts to to unravel some

1209
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: of like what it is, where it comes from, how

1210
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: it varies from culture to culture, and how it how

1211
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: it applies to animals, and how it is or is

1212
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: not incorporated in our technology. So obviously we'd love to

1213
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: hear from everyone about this topic. Everyone out there has has,

1214
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: uh you know, a lot of experience with the world

1215
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: of pointing or being pointed at, or digitally gesticulating with

1216
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 1: your hands, trying to point things out to your dog

1217
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: or your cat, or your horse, whatever you know, whatever

1218
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 1: animal you have interacted with. We would love to hear

1219
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 1: your experience. We'd love to hear about your details. Um

1220
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: in the meantime, well, first of all, we just hope

1221
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: everybody's doing well out there. Everybody's being kind to each

1222
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: other out there. And if you want to support our show,

1223
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 1: the best thing you can do is uh well, tell

1224
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:34,440
Speaker 1: people about it, but also rate, review and subscribe wherever

1225
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 1: you get this podcast huge things as always to our

1226
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like

1227
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

1228
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: episode or any other to suggest a topic for the future,

1229
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 1: just to say hi, you can email us at contact

1230
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to

1231
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind. It's production of I Heart Radio. For

1232
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 1: more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I heart

1233
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your

1234
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 1: favorite shows.