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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 1: Lady Libido very stereotypically, something that almost doesn't exist, or

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Speaker 1: it's policed um, or it's not good enough um. Basically,

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Speaker 1: Lady Libido gets kind of the short end of the stick.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the time. Lady Libido sounds like an

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Speaker 1: actual character like Lady Look, I shouldn't be I feel

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Speaker 1: like she would be wearing sweats. Okay, Honestly, I'm just

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Speaker 1: imagining a Kathy comic. Lady Libido is just like ac

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Speaker 1: I'm so, I'm so tired, don't make me try on

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Speaker 1: to swimsuit. But I picture her more like Okay, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's Kathy, but she's in an evening gown with like

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Speaker 1: a cigarette it in a long cigarette holder, and she's

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Speaker 1: making eyes. Garfield, I am a psychologist, will probably have

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Speaker 1: a field day with like our You're much more glamorous

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Speaker 1: perception of Lady Libido. Yes, it is more comfortable or

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable for all of the mentally of the pressure. Yes,

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Speaker 1: everything physically. Lady Libido needs a vacation. Partly because there's

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Speaker 1: been medicalized pressure put on her, I'd say most recently

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Speaker 1: with the uh flaban serin or better known by its

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Speaker 1: brand name perhaps now Addie. Yeah, um, and I can't.

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Speaker 1: I literally when you said that, my mind went blank

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Speaker 1: because in my head when I read the actual what

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Speaker 1: would you call it, the generic name for Addie, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the actual medicine's name, it starts with the letters F L,

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Speaker 1: I B, And so my brain immediately goes fliberty bit

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Speaker 1: because I don't have the patients to sound that word

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Speaker 1: out for myself. Apparently, what kind of is flibberty gibbet?

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Speaker 1: Because it's constantly described and hailed as the so called

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Speaker 1: women's viagra, But it's not that at all. No, it's literally, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. It's not functioning on the same parts of

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Speaker 1: the brain, body, whatever as viagra does in men. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like an antidepressant in that you have to take

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Speaker 1: it every day, and rather than um, impacting your blood

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Speaker 1: flow to your genitals as viagra does, it more impacts

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Speaker 1: the blood flow around your brain. Yeah. So it's in

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Speaker 1: there tinkering with all of your neurotransmitters, doing things with

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Speaker 1: your dope amine and such. Well, and it makes sense

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Speaker 1: because a lot of our libido happens in our brain

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Speaker 1: totally totally, I mean like literally in our brains because

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Speaker 1: of those chemicals, but also just there's that mental emotional

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Speaker 1: connection that if you're not if you're not feeling it,

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Speaker 1: then you might not be feeling it. Wink. Well. So

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Speaker 1: there's there's all of these parts of your gray matter

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Speaker 1: that are involved in getting aroused, having a sex drive,

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Speaker 1: wanting to get intimate. Um. And a couple of them

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Speaker 1: include the amygdala, which I feel like is a sminty

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Speaker 1: all star. Yeah. The amygdala is uh, such a wily

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Speaker 1: little nugget of our brain because it's responsible for our

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Speaker 1: rage but also our raging passion. Okay, so when I

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Speaker 1: flipped tables over, that's my amygdala. When you flip tables

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Speaker 1: over on the way to the bedroom, your amygdala is

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Speaker 1: just going wild. Your lady libido, she's lit her cigarette

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Speaker 1: actually lit too, she's got the whole back in her mouth,

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Speaker 1: and she's ready to get down of business. Um. Not

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Speaker 1: again to go off on a tangent, but again, amigdala,

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Speaker 1: my brain, my brain, it is over the word a magdala,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it pronounces itself in my head as a magdala.

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Speaker 1: So then I think of Queen Amadola. So then I

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Speaker 1: pronounced it as as queen Queen amygdala. So we've got

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Speaker 1: Lady Libido and Queen Amygdala. I like this. I like

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Speaker 1: this cast of characters. Um, and I would like to

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Speaker 1: quickly note about Lady Libido smoking habit that we are

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Speaker 1: in no way endorsing cigarettes. No, not at all. Smoking

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Speaker 1: is bad and i'm actually bad for your libido. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's bad for your libido, it's bad for your brain,

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Speaker 1: your stamina, and also it just makes your breath smell

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Speaker 1: and and that's not a turn off. No, no, But

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Speaker 1: if we look back at the sexy gray matter and

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Speaker 1: revisit queen amygdala for for a moment, researchers think that

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Speaker 1: the size of your queen amygdala maybe in proportion to

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Speaker 1: your sex drive. So the bigger you're a magdala, the

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Speaker 1: more sexy you feel. I mean, that's what it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: which gives us a whole new like sexual comparison. That's

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Speaker 1: it's there, but it's just not visible. Yeah, forget about

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Speaker 1: how how big your hands are, Donald Trump, Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about your amygdala. Actually, let's not. Next up, we have

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Speaker 1: the hypothalamus, because this produces that post pleasure dopamine, which

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Speaker 1: is critical not only for all of those good feelings,

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Speaker 1: but also the motivation, do you know, get off the couch,

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Speaker 1: throw over some tables of your caroline and in my

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Speaker 1: evening down. Yes, And once I'm in my evening gown,

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Speaker 1: I should also be concerned about my pituitary gland because

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Speaker 1: this secretes a hormone which stimulates my ovaries to produce estrogen.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is it also produces prolactin, which is

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Speaker 1: that quote unquote mothering hormone which typically UH increases during

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Speaker 1: pregnancy and breastfeeding, and that actually lowers libido well, and

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Speaker 1: the prolactin is often uh considered the culprit in what

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Speaker 1: we often kind of in like a binary way, consider

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Speaker 1: like women's inability to just have unattached sex because we

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Speaker 1: get that prolactin if we have an orgasm that makes

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Speaker 1: us want to bond rather than just get out held

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Speaker 1: out to my college self. Okay, anyway, speaking of age though, um,

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Speaker 1: there was this study that finds that as your fertility declines,

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Speaker 1: your sex drive actually ramps up, possibly so that you'll

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Speaker 1: take advantage of those waning days of baby making, so

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Speaker 1: like how are you packing all? Um? But I mean

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Speaker 1: there's also those like mental emotional factors too, of as

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Speaker 1: you get older, perhaps you're less stressed about those issues

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Speaker 1: of contraception or conception in general, perhaps you're more likely

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Speaker 1: to be in a secure relationship and more likely to

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Speaker 1: have better body image. But the interesting flip side of

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Speaker 1: that of being in a secure, attached, long term relationship

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Speaker 1: is that more recently, researchers, including Daniel Bergner, who made

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Speaker 1: waves a couple of years ago with his book What

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Speaker 1: Do Women Want? Which has nothing to do with mel Gibson, Uh,

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Speaker 1: he found that this whole long standing narrative that we

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Speaker 1: have in our society about society about women being turned on,

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Speaker 1: particularly by stability and emotional intimacy and monogamy, uh, is

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Speaker 1: actually maybe not entirely accurate. That he actually found that

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Speaker 1: women show a lust drop off between years one and

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Speaker 1: four of their relationship that doesn't take much time at all.

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Speaker 1: Sure does not. But I mean, the the idea that

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Speaker 1: monogamy is lust killer is not news. No, no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: I think I think it has more to do with

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Speaker 1: the gender aspect of it being of the idea that

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Speaker 1: monogamy is like such a woman thing and not a

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Speaker 1: man and thing, and that women are then turned on

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Speaker 1: by that security. It's like, well, no, let's embrace the

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Speaker 1: idea that we're all different, regardless of gender identity in

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Speaker 1: terms of what turns us on. I'm down for that totally.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about medication though, because this is something that

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling A lot of listeners can identify with.

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Speaker 1: Whether you are on birth control, which can absolutely influence

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Speaker 1: your libido, antidepressants and anti anxiety anti seizure medications will

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Speaker 1: also play a role in that. Pretty much anything that

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Speaker 1: might influence your levels of hormones and or brain chemistry,

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Speaker 1: it might affect your libido in either way, though, you know,

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Speaker 1: some might make you a little randier and some might

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Speaker 1: make you a little less. Randy. Who's randy by the way,

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Speaker 1: Randy Newman? Oh God, suddenly I'm playing the piano all

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Speaker 1: the time? Well, you have Randy Newman on the piano

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Speaker 1: while Lady Libida in her evening gown and Queen Queen

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Speaker 1: Amygdala's like, what in the world can I get a

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Speaker 1: drink around here? Someone? And then there's something that I

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Speaker 1: had not thought of or read about before, which is

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Speaker 1: that antihistamines can supposedly have a more physical effect when

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Speaker 1: it comes to libido in terms of drying out mucous membranes.

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Speaker 1: I had never I had never considered that before, So

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Speaker 1: a doctor might recommend trying non drug allergy therapies or

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Speaker 1: second generation anti histmins like zero tech or Cleroton. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my neurologist um told me to quote pop a freaking

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Speaker 1: zertech every morning during the spring because I get super

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Speaker 1: bad migraines related to weather and especially when the seasons

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Speaker 1: are changing. And apparently taking an antihitamine like Zerotech is

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Speaker 1: supposed to help my brain parts but not my lady parts. Apparently. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: zero tech is better than that's right. Yeah, that's that's

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Speaker 1: a good recommendation from your doctor. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: this episode is not brought to you by Zyrtech, Clarton

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Speaker 1: or Kathy and really not surprisingly, actual physical health conditions

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Speaker 1: can have a real effect on your libido, things like hypothyroidism, depression, hypertension,

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Speaker 1: and undiagnosed diabetes, not to mention issues like vaginismus or

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Speaker 1: volvidenia where you're feeling actual pain in your volva and vagina. Oh,

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Speaker 1: also not to mention things like polycystic ovarian syndrome and endometriosis.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, we we have just a laundry list of

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Speaker 1: things that can shape our libido really from day to day,

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Speaker 1: week to week, year to year. And it's funny to

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Speaker 1: me that we're still having these back and forth conversations

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Speaker 1: about gender, gender identity, uh, sexuality, and libido that like,

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Speaker 1: men are the sexy ones and women are just completely frigid.

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Speaker 1: Because back in the day it was pretty much an

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Speaker 1: open and shut case that women were hyper sexualized. So

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Speaker 1: Alyssa Goldstein wrote about this in depth over at Alternate

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Speaker 1: in starting in ancient Greece, like you do, um where

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Speaker 1: from from that point to the early nineteenth century, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the prevailing idea was that women are the sex craze ones.

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Speaker 1: So in Greek mythology, for instance, Zeus and Harrah argue

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Speaker 1: about whether men or women enjoy sex more. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: we're still doing the same thing. We are all Zeus

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Speaker 1: and HERA hashtag? Is that a hashtag? Let's make it one? Um? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So apparently Harrah had turned this prophet terse Us into

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Speaker 1: a woman. At some point. I missed that myth or

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Speaker 1: I don't remember it. Uh. And so she's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I can settle this. Let's ask Tyreseus. He's been both Uh.

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Speaker 1: He seems like a would want to ask. And Tyreseus

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Speaker 1: apparently tells these gods, if sexual pleasure were divided into

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Speaker 1: ten parts, only one part would go to the man

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Speaker 1: and nine parts to the woman. And wasn't it when

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Speaker 1: when did Hippocrates come into the situation where he thought

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Speaker 1: that like semen was making up women's hair, women had

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Speaker 1: like long, lustrous, sexy hair because it was filled with semen.

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Speaker 1: So there's all these weird ideas about sexuality, sex, beauty,

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Speaker 1: sexiness and hair and hair, so much hair. But of

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Speaker 1: course with Christianity we have sort of the the negative

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Speaker 1: side of that. The Jezebels women were temptresses who, thanks

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Speaker 1: to Eve, thanks no thanks, inherited this kind of sexual

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Speaker 1: treachery because of course she's seduced Adam in the biblical

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Speaker 1: creation myth um too, that apple so to speak, that

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Speaker 1: Granny Smith Smith apple so to speak, and the way

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Speaker 1: that Goldstein breaks it down in once we get into

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Speaker 1: Christian dominated societies, that sexual passion that women supposedly had

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Speaker 1: contributed to their position of being morally and intellectually basically

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Speaker 1: inferior to men, and that was the motivation for keeping

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Speaker 1: them on a tight leash, because men, you know, they're

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Speaker 1: powerful and they're not as consumed by lust as those

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Speaker 1: sex crazed women are, and so thanks to their better

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Speaker 1: self control when it comes to sex and sexuality and libido,

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Speaker 1: they are definitely better suited to positions of power. And

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Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting and important to note that

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Speaker 1: Puritans also did believe that women had to higher sex

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Speaker 1: drive and that abstaining from sex would be a challenge

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Speaker 1: for women, and all sexual desire to them was normal.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as long as it was between a man

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Speaker 1: and a woman who were married before god, you know,

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Speaker 1: nobody else. So sex drive is like totally normal and

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Speaker 1: healthy as long as you're a man and a woman

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Speaker 1: who were married. And it's great to go back and

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Speaker 1: read Goldstein's chronicling of these attitudes towards sex drive. For instance,

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Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century, this guy, Franciscus plazonis figured like, hey,

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Speaker 1: childbirth is pretty awful, pretty painful, and it sure would

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Speaker 1: not be worth it for women if sex wasn't like

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Speaker 1: totally awesome for them. They clearly have a higher sex drive.

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Speaker 1: It clearly feels better for them, and that's still a

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Speaker 1: question that scientists are looking into. As as for why

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Speaker 1: female orgasms even exist is the great Well, sure, but

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Speaker 1: it's like, does that incentivize us even doing it because

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Speaker 1: it could result in us nine months later having to

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Speaker 1: go through the painful act of childbirth? M interesting, if

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Speaker 1: only we could text polozonis um. And in the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century you have Austrian gynecologist Enoch Hinrich Kitsch who said

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Speaker 1: that the sexual impulse is so powerful and women that

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Speaker 1: at certain periods of life, it's primitive force dominates her

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Speaker 1: whole nature. Man, women were totally sex crazed. Well, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder if some of this relates to an episode

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Speaker 1: we did a while back, um when Sandra Fluke was

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Speaker 1: in a bunch of headlines because she was the one

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Speaker 1: who was advocating for a birth control to be included

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Speaker 1: in the Affordable Healthcare Act, and of course Regel Limbaugh

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Speaker 1: called her a slut and alleged that birth control turns

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Speaker 1: women into sex crazed monsters. Um. So, as we were

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Speaker 1: exploring the relationship in an episode a while back on

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Speaker 1: UH birth control and promiscuity and how women's sexuality has

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Speaker 1: been perceived. We discovered that pretty much is soon as

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Speaker 1: churches became established and we're sort of the community centers

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Speaker 1: where if you were an unwed mother, where they would

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Speaker 1: be your support system in terms of like feeding you

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Speaker 1: and clothing you. And if you became too much of

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Speaker 1: a financial burden, you know, that's not cool for the church.

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Speaker 1: So they wanted to de incentivize premarital sex. So you

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Speaker 1: start to get all of these slight shaming myths um

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Speaker 1: to discourage women from having sex. Thanks church, um. And

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, no, that we see a hard turn around

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Speaker 1: the same time that Enoch the gynecologist is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: women are just dominated by their sex drives. You've got

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Speaker 1: people like Herman Felling who were saying that it's a

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Speaker 1: totally false idea that women have a sex drive that's

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Speaker 1: just as strong as a man's and that actually quote

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Speaker 1: the sexual side in the love of a young girl

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Speaker 1: is pathological. So that's that's great. Thanks a lot. And

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Speaker 1: a couple years later in Bernhard Winshield, It's not Windshield

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Speaker 1: Mr Winshield. Mr Winshield says that women normal women, particularly

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Speaker 1: he says, higher social class ladies, they don't have a

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Speaker 1: an inborn sexual instinct, and if they do, it's an abnormality.

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Speaker 1: And he says, since women do not know this instinct

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Speaker 1: before marriage dot dot dot, they don't miss it when

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Speaker 1: they have no occasion in life to learn it. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, so many great like sexist and classiest things

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in that, because he specifically calls out the

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Speaker 1: normal women of higher social classes that have no sex drive.

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Speaker 1: That's the norm. Yeah, frigid white ladies. Sure. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: what shifted those assumptions, as historian Nancy cott Um has explained,

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Speaker 1: was the rise of evangelical Protestantism in New England. So

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Speaker 1: this ties back to what I was saying about the

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Speaker 1: churches and slut shamming and de incentivizing, you know, women

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Speaker 1: exploring their libidos, their lady libidos, letting them go for

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Speaker 1: a walk about um and elevating this ideal woman who

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Speaker 1: is not, you know, attempting Jezebel, but rather she is

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Speaker 1: the moral center of the home right exactly. And that

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Speaker 1: goes back to what we said earlier about oh well,

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Speaker 1: you know, men were assumed to have less of that

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Speaker 1: lusty sex drive, so they were more rational and could

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Speaker 1: hold those positions of power. So it was almost like

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Speaker 1: women who were involved in evangelical Protestantism, they welcomed this

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Speaker 1: shift because it perhaps would allow them to be on

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Speaker 1: a more equal standing with men in their church in

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Speaker 1: terms of morality and responsibility. But of course the trade

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Speaker 1: off being that if you are accepting, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a better reputation, you know, to gloss over a bunch

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Speaker 1: of stuff or for lack of a better word, um

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Speaker 1: based on morality and lack of sex drive and being

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Speaker 1: completely sexless, then you lose the ability to talk about

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Speaker 1: sex or or be a sexual being because suddenly that's

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Speaker 1: really really frowned upon. Well, and like you said earlier,

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Speaker 1: so much of this is wrapped up in racism and classism,

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Speaker 1: with you know, the most moral and elevated woman in

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Speaker 1: society necessarily being white and middle or upper class. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean women of color were hyper sexualized. Working class

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Speaker 1: women were also totally exempt from any of these assumptions.

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Speaker 1: And we're therefore, in parallel, in tandem, thought to be

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Speaker 1: more out of control, more una able to exercise power

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Speaker 1: or intellect or morality. I mean, all of these things

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Speaker 1: are definitely tied up with each other, all of that racism,

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Speaker 1: all about sexism and classism, and of course by putting

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Speaker 1: women on this false pedestal, or some women, we should say,

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Speaker 1: putting putting a middle class white women on a false

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Speaker 1: pedestal meant that if they transgress, the fall was all

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Speaker 1: that farther. Yeah. And what's an interesting point that Goldstein

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Speaker 1: makes in terms of men versus women in the libido

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Speaker 1: realm is that once sexless, frigid morality was associated with women, uh,

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Speaker 1: men were free quote unquote to be lustier, but it

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Speaker 1: was more that if they were lusty, it wasn't frowned

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Speaker 1: upon because they're the ones in power. They're the norm, right,

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Speaker 1: white men in power, Like that's the norm that sets

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Speaker 1: the tone. And so if they are sexual beings with

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Speaker 1: a larger sexual appetite, it's like, oh, well, that's okay

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Speaker 1: because it's in their nature. It's the whole like boys

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Speaker 1: will be boys mentality. Yeah, And that's where that starts

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Speaker 1: to come in. And of course that kind of mentality

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Speaker 1: gets men off the hook for any kind of uh

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Speaker 1: sexual misbehavior or outright violations of consent i e um,

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Speaker 1: reinforcing rape culture because the idea is that men can't

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Speaker 1: control their impulses, Like the script has been completely flipped

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Speaker 1: to where men are the ones who can't control their impulses. Thus, women,

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Speaker 1: as the more modest and moral members of society, should

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Speaker 1: be the gatekeepers not only of their own sexuality but

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Speaker 1: also of men's, which brings us up to same song

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Speaker 1: millionth verse that we're still unfortunately singing today. Totally. It's

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Speaker 1: just like it's a full loop de loop. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until second wave feminism basically that we started

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation of like, hello, women like to

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Speaker 1: have sex too, and not just with men, and not

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Speaker 1: just penis and vagina sex, but with all sorts of people,

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Speaker 1: with all sorts of junk in their pants, Like we

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Speaker 1: we have sexuality and sex drive too. And it's so

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Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that we broke that background,

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Speaker 1: that historical background down to show that like, wait, we're

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Speaker 1: just having to try to work our way back up

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Speaker 1: to a vision of sexuality as being a human thing,

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Speaker 1: not just a man thing that women aren't supposed to have. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and the whole thing also is very binary,

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Speaker 1: and there is one single standard for sex drive and libido,

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Speaker 1: which is um this rather false idea that you know,

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Speaker 1: all men, all people with penises have like the exact

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Speaker 1: same raging sex drive all the time, which does a

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Speaker 1: disservice to those folks too. And so, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: feel like when we still see these questions about you know,

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Speaker 1: who has a bigger sex drive men or women, like,

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Speaker 1: I feel like even asking those questions is completely missing

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Speaker 1: the point, because what are we trying to achieve? What

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Speaker 1: race are we competing in? Yeah, and so I think

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Speaker 1: that the faster and Sminty is on the on the case,

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Speaker 1: the faster we can normalize sexuality and sex drive and

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Speaker 1: sex period, like, that's great. And then the faster that

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Speaker 1: we can normalize the idea that different people, not men

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Speaker 1: or women, different people have different sex drives, needs, wants, likes,

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, the better that'll be for everyone, because we're

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Speaker 1: still seeing those divisions in terms of dating, relationships, hook

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Speaker 1: up culture, whatever it is, with women still feeling like

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Speaker 1: they need to be the ones asked out, men still

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Speaker 1: feeling like they should be the ones doing the asking.

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Speaker 1: But even when you do have women who say like

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Speaker 1: I want to take charge, like why should I not

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Speaker 1: take charge of my dating life and ask someone out.

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Speaker 1: Of course, what I'm saying is very binary and head

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Speaker 1: or normative. Um, why should I not ask someone out

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Speaker 1: or ask for the sex that I want? Well, studies

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Speaker 1: have shown that those women, even if they're being confident

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Speaker 1: and happy in themselves, they are still perceived by men

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Speaker 1: more negatively or to be more promiscuous or things like that. Well,

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Speaker 1: and that drives with this University of Michigan study that

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Speaker 1: came out in twleven, which found that when women feel

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Speaker 1: like they are not going to be stigmatized for expressing

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Speaker 1: a desire to have casual sex, then the gender differences

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Speaker 1: in how we pursue that are minimized. Yes, and I

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Speaker 1: mean I think that that when you when you think

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Speaker 1: starting out that you're gonna be sludge shamed, do you

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Speaker 1: think that's going to have an effect on your libido,

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Speaker 1: like you can't be free to be you and me? Well?

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Speaker 1: Daniel Bergner, author of What Do Women Want? Adventures in

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Speaker 1: the Side It's a female desire, certainly think so. I

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Speaker 1: mean his book went viral. Can a book go viral?

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Speaker 1: That's like? I think? Yeah, a book like has talked

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Speaker 1: about a lot and sells copies. Hopefully, or people just

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Speaker 1: read a lot of online commentary about it. Yeah, people

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Speaker 1: were definitely talking about Daniel Bergner a lot. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we mentioned Burgner earlier talking about monogamy that it's not

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Speaker 1: just like, oh, this is monogamy with just a man.

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Speaker 1: Isn't the only thing that hashtag all women want? There's

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Speaker 1: more to it than that. And he also says that

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Speaker 1: through his studies, through his analysis of other research, women

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Speaker 1: are definitely turned on by their partners desire for them.

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Speaker 1: And basically the significance of that is that it's also

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Speaker 1: important to look at if we're talking about how one

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Speaker 1: thing in terms of sexuality is not better than another thing,

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Speaker 1: just different that for some people desire comes first and

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Speaker 1: for others arousal comes first. That just depending on who

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Speaker 1: you are and not even necessarily your gender. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how many times we can hammer that home. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you get turned on in a different order. Imagine that.

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Speaker 1: And so when we're operating from the perspective of heteronormative

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Speaker 1: penis and vagina man and woman sex where there's like

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Speaker 1: a little bit of foreplay and then you're at it

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Speaker 1: and both of you are supposedly turned on immediately, it's

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Speaker 1: just a thought of sex like, Okay, so there's different

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Speaker 1: formulations for how people get turned on an approach satisfying sex.

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Speaker 1: But it's because I think we do have so many

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Speaker 1: of those heteronormative attitudes around libido that a lot of

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Speaker 1: women end up feeling like something is wrong with them,

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Speaker 1: whether that's chemically, whether that's physically. And so there has

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Speaker 1: been ever since we got viagraa in the nineties, there

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Speaker 1: really has been this huge push to get some type

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Speaker 1: of equivalent medicine, medication, medical answer for women. And that's

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Speaker 1: not to say that there aren't legitimate uh disorders or

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Speaker 1: dysfunctions when it comes to women's sex drives or libida

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Speaker 1: or how their body parts operate, but researchers over at

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Speaker 1: the Harvard Medical School we're basically arguing that was it

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Speaker 1: really the need that prompted the development of pills like

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Speaker 1: Addie or was it another Did it serve as another

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Speaker 1: like really ripe pharmaceutical target female desire? Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've been pathologizing female sexual desire ever

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Speaker 1: since of female sexual dysfunction or f s D was

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Speaker 1: named as an actual like disease in just as erectile

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Speaker 1: dysfunction had been in the nineteen nineties, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: uh hypoactive sexual desire disorder was taken out of the

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Speaker 1: d s M in has now been replaced with female

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Speaker 1: sexual interest and arousal disorder UM. And for some women

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Speaker 1: that's absolutely the case, like that disorder does exist, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have scrutinized the how how pervasive.

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Speaker 1: Some folks think that it must be because it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: are there actually like neurochemical physiological issues going on? Or

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Speaker 1: are we not understanding of how our bodies work? Are

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Speaker 1: we not understanding of um? You know how many people

424
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: with vaginas do not reach an orgasm through solely through penetration? Um?

425
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: Do we not know how to sexually communicate? And on

426
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: and on and on? Do we not accept what you've

427
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: been saying over and over again that sexuality and sexual

428
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: expression in libido, like gender, is a spectrum. Yes, yes,

429
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: And so in that Harvard article we read, they wrote,

430
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: a woman's sexual responsiveness is not the same as a man's,

431
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: and ignoring its complexity can make difference look like dysfunction.

432
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: And I bolded and to tell size that in my notes,

433
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: because I do think that's important to note for all

434
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: of us that we have different sexualities and sexual desires

435
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: and different things that turn us on. And while it's

436
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: good to have addie or or medicine or treatments like

437
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: it to address issues of UM sex drive or sexual

438
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: functioning UM, I think it things like communication, for instance,

439
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: are important because I know and like maybe t M I,

440
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: but I know that my sex life is better when

441
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 1: my boyfriend and I are openly communicating about what we like,

442
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: what we want, and what feels good, and when we're

443
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: open to the possibilities of trying different things well. And

444
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: it reminds me of uh, you know, treatment for general

445
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: anxiety disorder where you can absolutely take medication, but medication

446
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: will not cure it. That's where cognitive behavioral therapy comes in,

447
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 1: and you know, the kind of the arduous work of

448
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: practicing new strategies and behaviors. And I think that sometimes

449
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: we forget about, like taking a similar approach to our

450
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: sexuality where you might be in a situation your body

451
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: might need your a medication to work some things out,

452
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: but starting from a more behavioral therapy approach and really

453
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: eliminating all of those other factors that we talked about

454
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: the top of the podcast that could be contributing to

455
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: things such as picos or vaginice nous, all of the

456
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: myriad factors that influence our Our Lady Libidos as we've

457
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: been referring to her, UM is so important. Yeah. And

458
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: so actually, Kristen and I have a special guest for you.

459
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: UM it's Lady Nito. Come on down. UM. We actually

460
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: spoke with filmmaker Maria fanitso about issues of sexuality and

461
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: libido and sex drive, especially as it applies to women. Um.

462
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: And we're going to introduce you to her right after

463
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: a quick break. So today we're talking with social issue

464
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: documentary filmmaker Maria Finitzo, who's working on her next project,

465
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: The Dilemma of Desire, about women's sex drive. And I

466
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: was really excited to talk to her because as part

467
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: of her project, she's interviewing not only everyday women about

468
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: their sex drives and attitudes about their sex drives, but

469
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: she's also talking to sim Smithy All Stars. So she

470
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: talks to Sophia Wallace, who is the artist who made

471
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: Claracy How Happen. She's super cool, um, and she made

472
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: a giant gold clarist that you should google. Image if

473
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: you don't know what I'm talking about. And she also

474
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: speaks with Lisa Diamond, who we've cited a number of

475
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: times on the podcast. She is a psychology and gender

476
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: studies professor at the University of Utah who has published

477
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 1: a whole lot of studies on sexual fluidity. Um. And

478
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: also she speaks with Erica Lust, who is an erotic

479
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: film director. I bet Erica Lust knows Lady Libido and

480
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: Queen Amygdala. But but Randy Newman urry still out Still yeah,

481
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: not so much talking about libidos rand human impression. It's

482
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: so perfect. Um. Yeah, So I asked, I asked fanitsa

483
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: what inspired this project? And coincidentally or not so coincidentally,

484
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense. She was actually inspired by the

485
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: work of Daniel Bergner and his theories on monogamy and

486
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: women's sex drives. She told me that, you know, she's

487
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: in her sixties, she's got a daughter in her mid twenties,

488
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 1: and she told me that she's always been really interested

489
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: in women figuring out their sex drives and having agency

490
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: over them, and so she wanted with this film to

491
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: look into what is female desire and beyond that, how

492
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: do women exercise agency when it comes to sex and sexuality,

493
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: And so we're gonna talk about women's sexual expression, what

494
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: we are taught or not taught about our bodies, and

495
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: how that affects libido, but also what amazing things can

496
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: happen when women are free to explore their bodies, their partners,

497
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: their sexuality, and their own likes and dislikes. You can

498
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: have rewarding sex loves. Okay, get out of there, any newman.

499
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: So we kick off for the interview by asking Fanitza

500
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 1: what she uncovered through all of her research and her interviews. So,

501
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: what did you find in terms of how the women

502
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: you spoke with defined, or viewed or thought about female desire? Well, what,

503
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: I've haven't made the film yet, so I'm in the

504
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: process of UM trying to get it funded and hopefully

505
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: I will. But in my research, what I have found

506
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: is that UM women now, young women now are reporting

507
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: having a lot of sex, but are reporting not having

508
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: very good sex, so it's not pleasurable for them. And

509
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: I find that really really interesting. And the other because like,

510
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: what are the gains of the women's movement in the sixties,

511
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: if not so that our daughters have UM freedom to

512
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: be who they are and express themselves sexually in the

513
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: way that makes sense for them. Right, But instead of

514
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: finding that world that was such a promise in the

515
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: sixties now a reality. What I find is that women

516
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: feel a lot of pressure to be sexual and yet

517
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 1: are not finding when they are that they're getting much

518
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: out of it, meaning pleasurable orgasms. And so that to

519
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: me is pretty interesting, and so I wanted to ask why, right,

520
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: why in this day and age are is that not happening?

521
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's where the real um, you know,

522
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: that's where the hard questions have to be asked, because

523
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: sexual desire doesn't exist in a vacuum. Women are part

524
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: of a world, right. We live in a world, and

525
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: that world and all of the pressure's culturally, religious, socially

526
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: impact on who we are and how we define ourselves

527
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: and how we then operate in the world. And so

528
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: it's very hard for women today to be able to

529
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: be who they are sexually right and express their sexual

530
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: desire when the world is telling them all kinds of

531
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: things about who they are, how they should behave and

532
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: you know whether or not it's right or good to

533
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: behave the way they want. Do you feel that there

534
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: are still those acceptable and unacceptable ways for women to

535
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: express their sexuality and desire? And where are these messages

536
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: coming from? Well, in terms of UM acceptable or unacceptable,

537
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: that's a pretty UM personal things. So what might be

538
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: acceptable for one woman UM and is unacceptable for another? Right,

539
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: I think war The question is is that women are

540
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: not UM. Women are punished for being sexual today. Right,

541
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: So young women, UM, you know, first of all, let's

542
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 1: just look at UM the war that's going on against

543
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: women bodies, which is the chipping a way of abortion

544
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: rights that has occurred throughout the South twenty three states

545
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: now make it almost impossible for a woman to have

546
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: an abortion. Okay, they want to say that has to

547
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: do with right to life, but really it's a war

548
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: against women, and women are being punished for being sexual,

549
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: right okay or wanting that's so that's one thing and

550
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: the other thing that's happening. And the course as young

551
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: women you know that this is part of your life

552
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: is um. We live in a culture where UM women

553
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: are punished for being sexual and that plays out in

554
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: all kinds of ways, including the epidemic of rape on

555
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: college campuses. Right. So when I went to college and

556
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: I went into a bar. I didn't have to worry

557
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: that my drink was going to be drugged, right, and

558
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: that someone was going to take me home and rape me.

559
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: I didn't have to worry about that. When my daughter

560
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: and her friends go into a bar, that's part of

561
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: the experience. They all have to keep track of each

562
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: other's drinks. We'll think about what that says to you.

563
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: I mean, they do that as a matter of course,

564
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: but what does what does that indicate that the world

565
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: is saying to women you look out, this is dangerous place.

566
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: And if you think you can be sexual without any consequences,

567
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: we're going to tell you show you you can't. So

568
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of um pressure on women,

569
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: um not not to express their sexual desire, and um

570
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 1: it's playing out in all kinds of different ways. Well,

571
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: you quote on your website psychiatrist Mary Jane Shurfe who

572
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: asserts that women's quote unquote insatiable sexual appetites have had

573
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: to be systematically repressed over years. And so my question

574
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: to you is is, how how did this happen? And

575
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: in what ways is women's desire or their sexual expression

576
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: still suppressed. Well, I think it happens because Um, it's

577
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: a question of power, right. And so I'm not you know,

578
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: I'm not a historical social scientists. I I'm not an

579
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: expert in looking back on how um, women have been

580
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: seeing throughout the ages. But certainly they're of the time

581
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: when women were either you know, madonna's or whore's and

582
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: there was nothing in between. And even within the Catholic Church,

583
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: you have the mother, you know, Christ having to have

584
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: an immaculate conception. Okay, so that's a little lot, all right,

585
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: So she can have had sex, right because we don't

586
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: want her to be sexual, which is a natural part

587
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 1: of everyone humanity. Um. And so you have sex as

588
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: it relates to women being something that women should be

589
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: shamed of. They should not be sexual, they should not

590
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: want to have sexual pleasure and that um and and

591
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: if women did have agency and complete control over it,

592
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: I think that's frightening. That's that that appears to be

593
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: frightening to society. And so it's much better for keeping

594
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: control of everything is if we tell women that they

595
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: don't really have sex drive um, and that if they do,

596
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: they're bad girls right there, they're flood shames. So we

597
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: all do it, Okay, we all talk about you. We

598
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: all roll our eyes when a woman goes out and

599
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: decides to have sex with the guy she eats in

600
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: the bar and then she goes home the next morning.

601
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: Well there's that sort of you know, very stereotypical response,

602
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 1: which is, you know, flut walked back to her apartment.

603
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: Well nobody does that for men. Okay, that men just

604
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: get to do that, that's part of what they do.

605
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: So um women wanting to be um sexual or or

606
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: or have you know, expressed express their sexual desire have

607
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: a really hard road to go. Okay, They're really hard,

608
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: and I think it's gotten worse. So in the sixties

609
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: when the Women's Revolution started, you know, it was all

610
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: about women have control over their bodies. The birth control

611
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: pill came in and so now sex is no longer

612
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: tied to worry about whether or not you're going to

613
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: get pregnant. Okay, that was huge, and we all thought

614
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: that that would change the landscape for women and women's

615
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: rights and their freedom and their ability to be in

616
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: the world the way they wanted, completely right, But I

617
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: don't see that now. I see young women, women in

618
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: their twenties, even women in high school having to move

619
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: around in a landscape that is dangerous and and worse

620
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: than when I was their age, because the the pressure

621
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: to be sexual is huge, but the pressure to be

622
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: sexual in a way that society tells you you should

623
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: be sexual, which is to objectify yourself right for the

624
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: pleasure of men, is enormous and it's also very dangerous

625
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: women women are not accepted equally as sexual partners. They're

626
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: supposed to be there for the poor men, right. That's

627
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: still huge in our culture and in our society. And

628
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: so I think that's one way that you know, women's

629
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: ability to express their sexual desire is repressed. It's it's dangerous. Okay,

630
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: you're going to You're going to catch it if this

631
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: is the way you operate in the world. Um, And

632
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 1: I think that message is really clear. Do you think

633
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: this ties into what people call hook up culture? And

634
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like for years we've been hearing

635
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: about hook up culture being a negative, and so I'm

636
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: interested to hear from you, uh in your research and

637
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: just in your life if you feel like this so

638
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: called hook up culture is a positive or negative when

639
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: it comes to women's sexual expression, Well, I think it

640
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: has the potential to be a very positive thing. Right,

641
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: Women are now um living different lives than many many

642
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: years ago, and they have um careers and career goals,

643
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: and you know they they're they're really busy in their life.

644
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: Is not just about wanting to find someone to marry, right,

645
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: And so you know, women who are in professional schools

646
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: or who are in med school or law school are

647
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: are busy. And so having a relationship when you have

648
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: all that else going on is very time consuming. And

649
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 1: so a lot of women say, no, I don't really

650
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: want a relationship out. We have heard men say that

651
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: for years. Okay, and so I but I do want

652
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: to have sex, right, So that's a good thing. However,

653
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 1: when I was doing research for my film, I read

654
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 1: the series that the New York Times did about cook

655
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: up culture, and they went and interviewed a number of

656
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: women at schools all along the East Coast about it,

657
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: and women talking about why they do it and what

658
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: they get out of it. But what struck me about

659
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: it was that not a single one of the women

660
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: they interviewed would give their name. So instead of saying, yeah,

661
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: my name is Jane Doe or Sallie Smith, and this

662
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: is really this works for me, right, And here's why

663
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: it works for me. No, none of the women wanted

664
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: to give their name, and so that to me indicates

665
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: that there's still fear of being shamed for it, mocked,

666
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: or that employers will think less of you because you

667
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: are a sexual person. Right, So that kind of morality

668
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: that people super impose on women, um is still there.

669
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: And so that's where I think, Um, the hook up

670
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: culture is somewhat dangerous for women because of the um

671
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, because of the way they're judged when they

672
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: do it. Okay, So if it we lived in a

673
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: perfect world and if women got to behave the way

674
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: men did, I think it's great because sometimes you just

675
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 1: don't want a relationship, but you do want sex, and

676
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: that that we should have a world where that's possible

677
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: for women to have. Right. Complicated, very complicated. It is complicated.

678
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's definitely a lot of layers to it

679
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: that it seems like we're still working to shrug off

680
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: our victorian ancestors a little bit. Um, But even even

681
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: they had some interesting attitudes about sex. So, um, so

682
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 1: what would you say is the missing lengthen between what

683
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: women want sexually, what they're actually doing, and what they

684
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: actually get Is it plain communication? Do women need to

685
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: start giving their names and articles about hookup culture for instance?

686
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 1: Does social norms need to change? What needs to change

687
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: for women to get what they want sexually? Well? I

688
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: think what needs to change is that women have to

689
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: be seen as equal partners in the world, and it's

690
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: a question of equality. And women have to feel that

691
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: they are in a safe place so that they can say, Hi,

692
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: my name is Betty Smith, and I really like sex

693
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: this way and I like to have it with a

694
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: lot of different guys or whatever it is, and women

695
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: and you know, whatever it is, and not fear the

696
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: consequences of their honesty. And you also, if you are

697
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: in a relationship or even if you're not, have to

698
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: feel Women have to feel that they are entitled to

699
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: their pleasure. Okay, so we know men are entitled to

700
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: their pleasure because that's the way we're getting We are

701
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: objects of male sexual desire and where we do things

702
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: to our bodies and ourselves to make us more desirable

703
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: to men. Right then, speaking solely from a heterosexual point

704
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 1: of view, right, So that's really strong in our culture.

705
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of women don't feel like

706
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: they have the right to say that doesn't work for me,

707
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: how about this way? Right? And I think the other

708
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: thing that's missing and and why I'm including the work

709
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: of Sophia Wallace and the film is knowledge about female bodies,

710
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: both women and men. And so when the organ of

711
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: female sexual desire is the guturists is a not spoken

712
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: about it very much be misunderstood completely, um and see

713
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: missing from some anatomy books. What does that tell you? Right? So,

714
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: I think what has to happen is the whole landscape

715
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: has to change. It's a question of equality, because until

716
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: women are seen as equal, then they won't feel entitled

717
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: to say the just my right, I have a right

718
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: to have this encounter, the sexual encounter be just as

719
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: pleasurable for me as it is for you. And I

720
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: think that's I think it would be really great if

721
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: we could start a movement where women said, Okay, that's great,

722
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: that that's what you want. I'm happy to do it. Now,

723
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: here's what I want, right, here's what I want. You

724
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: are entitled to say what you want, and here's how

725
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,479
Speaker 1: you do it, right. So it's knowledge about your own body. Yeah,

726
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: And we should emphasize for listeners that Sophia Wallace is

727
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: the artist behind the C Literacy campaign. She created or

728
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 1: helped create a giant claras that you could ride. And

729
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: we talked a lot about her in our episode which

730
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: we in honor of her work, titled C Literacy. And

731
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, Maria, our listeners minds were blown,

732
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: as we're our own about not only how amazing our

733
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: bodies are, um but and what they can accomplish, but

734
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: how research into women's genitals and gynecological anatomy, how it

735
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: just seemed to drop off. It seems like once doctors

736
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: realized like, oh, that thing that women have is just

737
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: there for pleasure, Like, well, that's ridiculous and we don't

738
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: need to study it anymore, That's right. That's right. Is

739
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: as if the only important thing about female reproductive about

740
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: female anatomy is the reproductive you know, it's reproduct productive capabilities, right,

741
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: So not the whole thing, right? So how ridiculous is that? Right? Um?

742
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: You know? And I one of the things that I

743
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 1: thought was really interesting about Sophia's work is she went

744
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: to the Whitney Museum when they had a huge retrospective

745
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: of I think twentieth century art, and she went because

746
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: there were no women artists in the retrospective. Pretty interesting,

747
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: and yet there are lots of women's bodies in the art, okay.

748
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: And she talked about how she when she was there, Um,

749
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, they brought she brought her gang of people

750
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: running around with um cut out clitteriss and three D

751
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: glasses cut in shape of clear issis so that they

752
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: could look at the art um the perspective of the cliteress.

753
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: And she said she heard one little boy say to

754
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: his mother and mommy, what's the clearest Well can you

755
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: imagine a young girl, a little girl saying her mother,

756
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: mommy was penis? They all know what beanses are, okay,

757
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: but why don't young boys know what clarterists are? They should, right,

758
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: but nobody nobody says the word. People don't want to

759
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: say the word right. So I think it's you know,

760
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: we are we are the objects out there in the world.

761
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: We're sexualized throughout the world. Our bodies are, right, That's

762
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: that's it. And yet the organ a female sexual desire

763
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: is mostly in this Moore right. Pretty interesting stuff. Um,

764
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: what what were you most surprised to learn from your

765
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: interview subjects like Sophia? What what was most surprising to

766
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: you in your interviews and research. Well, I I you know,

767
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: I I loved what she had figured out, right, I

768
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 1: mean she's in her late twenties, you know, I'm you know,

769
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: in my sixties. I've been around a long time. And

770
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: yet even I didn't understand sort of the entire size

771
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: and scope of the clitter is on my own body. Right,

772
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: How how is that possible? Okay? So I had to

773
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: learn it from her. And I also, you know, I

774
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 1: was able to sort of learn a lot of things

775
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: I hadn't realized, which is, you know, that's sort of

776
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 1: the way the medical field has ignored, um, the fact

777
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: that women have clitter istis and on their bodies. Right,

778
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: And so think about when you go into surgery and

779
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 1: if met students don't really are aware of the fact

780
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: that it's surround the entire outer while the vagina and

781
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: is inside and right, well they're cutting away, right, maybe

782
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: you need to surgery where you have to have an

783
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: incision made and here you are cutting into an organ

784
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: that's rich with nerve endings and so all of you know,

785
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: her work just brought like just like hit me over

786
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: the head with how um how frightened and the world

787
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: is for women to have knowledge about their own bodies

788
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: and control over them and be proud of them, right,

789
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: be proud of them. I mean, men all walk around,

790
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's really great when a big swing and

791
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: women should walk around the same way with their glitters. Okay,

792
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I know this sounds like really silly, but

793
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: that's what we don't. We walk around ashamed of the

794
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: fact that we have this incredible organ in our body,

795
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: you know. And that's you know, her work to me

796
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: is really exciting because she's really um making us all

797
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 1: ask questions about how we all operate in the world,

798
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: and we all think we've got it together, and then

799
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: we think about our own life and how we sometimes

800
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: don't ask for the things we need or even understand

801
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: the things we need. So um, and I just I

802
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: think that was, you know, and I love the way

803
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: she ties it all back to the religious, cultural, and

804
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: social issues and pressures that we all live with today. Yeah.

805
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: I love that idea of walking around like we have

806
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: big swinging because we do. They're just inside us. Basically,

807
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: they're just internal. They're the same size, if not larger,

808
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: than the penis in terms of erectile tissue. Yeah, absolutely.

809
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: I know. I love learning all of that too. I

810
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: felt so I felt so weird being a woman in

811
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: her thirties learning about that for the first time. And

812
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: think about the next think about sex education. Now, we

813
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: didn't even talk about the impact that porn is having

814
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: on the way women your age, while all women, younger women,

815
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: young boys learn about sex, and then the way women

816
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: feel they have to behave when they have sex because

817
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: the expectation is now because men watch so much porn

818
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: that what they want is for you to be the

819
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: porn star they've been watching for eight hours a day, right,

820
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: So think about how that impacts on a woman, right,

821
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 1: and how she can ask for something when the met

822
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 1: her partner. The men she's having sex with have been

823
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: watching you know, videos where women don't ask for anything

824
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: unless it's to be have the crappiet out of them, right. Um,

825
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: So think about the impact that porn has on sexual encounters. Huge.

826
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 1: What do you think about the emerging arena of so

827
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: called feminist porn. Well, that's one of the other people

828
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: in my film is Erica Lust. And she's this wonderful

829
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: woman who is a feminist, and she's in Barcelona, and

830
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: she and her partner have started a company called Lust Films,

831
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: and I've watched um the number of films and actually

832
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: interviewed her for the Schugle Film Festival when they gave

833
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 1: her an award, and the film, you know, it's porn,

834
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 1: but it's porn um with the perspective that is, if

835
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 1: you know, feminine, meaning the women ask for the things

836
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: that they get, and they asked for the pleasure, and

837
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: they have some control over how they encounter take those

838
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: and they're having fun with each other. And it's not

839
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: like it's just vanilla stuff. I mean, they get into

840
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: sort of kinky stuff. But the point being is that

841
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: the women are the ones who are saying, yeah, this

842
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: is great, let's do this, or they're not even if

843
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: they're being you know, blindfolded and bound, it's something that

844
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: they want, right And UM, I think that's really important

845
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: because what's missing in a discourse of pornography, the mainstream pornography,

846
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: is the voice of women. Okay. And if you know,

847
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 1: my eleven year old son is going to learn about

848
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: sex on the internet, I like him to learn different

849
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: things about women than what he's currently learning, right, And

850
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: that's where it's dangerous and it's Also, then I don't

851
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: want my daughter to think she has to behave the

852
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 1: way porn stars behave in those movies because that's what

853
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:33,720
Speaker 1: the guy she's having sex with gets off on. Right. So, um,

854
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's a really you know, interesting world we

855
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: live in right now. Yeah, And I don't know how

856
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: closely you've been following the developments around Addie a k a.

857
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: Lady Viagra, but there were a lot of missteps. Um.

858
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 1: One huge one was that it was tested on men

859
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: when it's supposed to be a a pill for women

860
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: who are experiencing some type of sexual dysfunction. Uh. And

861
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,479
Speaker 1: then of course, once uh in testing and once women

862
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 1: started taking it, it wasn't incredibly effective. So from your perspective,

863
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: do you think that such a pill is important because

864
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: it seems like they're trying to almost do one for one.

865
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, men have a pill, women need a pill.

866
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: But as we all know, women's libidos and sex drives

867
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: and sexuality are not the same necessarily as men. Sometimes

868
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: they're greater or sometimes they're less, and sometimes they're just

869
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: playing expressed differently. And so do you think the pill

870
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: like this is important or do you think that our

871
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: focus on improving, boosting, helping women's sexuality should be elsewhere. UM. Well,

872
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: I you know I can't. I'm not gonna say that.

873
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't think there are women out there who have UM,

874
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: a form of sexual dysfunction which is tied to a

875
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: medical reason, and because I'm sure that there are. But

876
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 1: I also think that one of the biggest problems women

877
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: have and enjoying sex is UM an understanding of their

878
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: own body and what feels good, an ability to say

879
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: to their partner, this is what I'd like you to

880
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: do UM without feeling like they're asking for too much UM.

881
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: And and also I think I think that and also

882
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: what works for one person doesn't always work for another person.

883
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: And so I think one of the things that happens

884
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: is that women get bored sexually. Okay, so why are

885
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: we not asking questions around why do women get bored? Right? UM?

886
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: And I also think women don't feel safe in sexual relationships.

887
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: Maybe they're being criticized, maybe they're being mocked, whatever it is,

888
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: And so after a while, it gets really hard to

889
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: have more gas that's the experience you're having. So I

890
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: would rather see UM maybe then go hand in hand

891
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: a conversation around what happens to women's libidos that may

892
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with something a pill can fix.

893
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: Biographix is a physiological problem, right, it increases blood floats.

894
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: That's something that's I'm gonna say, it's easy to fix.

895
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: But that's something you can fix. It's not the same

896
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: for women. And so one of the things that I've

897
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: noticed I've read a lot about this till is that

898
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: the improvement is very small for a very small number

899
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: of women, so they don't even really know if it works.

900
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 1: So now we're asking women to take a pill that

901
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: messes with your brain chemistry that and it maybe it works. Okay. Well,

902
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: I think there are other people that might say, you know,

903
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 1: let's look at your life, okay, and what's making your

904
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 1: sex life not so exciting? In some cases, it's because

905
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: you've been married for twenty five years to the same guy. Okay,

906
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: So that's the question. Does monogamy work for women? Maybe

907
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: not right, maybe not so great anymore, because one part

908
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: of sectual arousal is the sort of you know, that

909
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: thing that happens in the beginning when you're so excited

910
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: to be with somebody because it's a little bit dangerous

911
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: or a little bit scary or a little bit new. Well,

912
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: it's not so new after twenty years, and so, um,

913
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: you know, these are all these questions that I think

914
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: should be asked and really thought about. Um in addition

915
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: to the medical field pursuing whether or not there are

916
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,479
Speaker 1: actual pills that might help women, as opposed to just

917
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: medicalizing a problem which has nothing to do with medicine

918
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: and then trying to make money off of women by

919
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: giving them a pill they don't really need, you know.

920
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that there are people who are more

921
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: knowledgeable about the medical side of this that would disagree

922
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: with me, because it's a hotly debated thing. But um,

923
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: so I would just say that I'd like to like,

924
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 1: I'd like the conversation to be broader. Then let's let's

925
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: see if we have a pill to fix. And speaking

926
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: of conversation, you, with your research and your upcoming documentary

927
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: that you're working on, you're clearly opening the door to

928
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: that conversation. And so I'm wondering what it's going to

929
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: take for us to be able to accept women's sexuality

930
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: that it exists and to be comfortable discussing everything from

931
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: sexual preferences and kink to libido and sexual dysfunction. Well,

932
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: I think it's going to have to come. I want

933
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: my film to start a conversation, and I want that

934
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: conversation to start in grade school, okay, because well, boys

935
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: are taught about their sexuality, right because it's sort of

936
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: visible and it's happening to them. But girls aren't talk

937
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: about it at all. Nobody says to them, oh, hey,

938
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: you know, by the way, um, you have to sorkin

939
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: in your body and if you touch it, it's going

940
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: to be a lot of fun. Okay. So sex education

941
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: has to include um pleasure, not just this is what

942
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: happens and so and and and this is a good thing,

943
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: not a shameful thing. So it's gonna take um, you know,

944
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: changing the way we treat women hundred and eighty degrees right,

945
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: So treat them as equal people in the world who

946
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 1: have right to a control their bodies and be have

947
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: pleasure that their bodies you know, provide, because that's the

948
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: way we were made and that there's nothing wrong with

949
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 1: that right, that it is a part of our humanity

950
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: and just something that you you have the right to pursue.

951
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: And that conversation has to start really young and that's

952
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: going to be a big problem. Right. We have a

953
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: growing religious right in this country which is co opting

954
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: the conversation around everything, and it's a scary time. I

955
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: just saw a documentary called Trapped about the movement to

956
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 1: um you know, reverse all the gains of rov Wade

957
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: and what's happened in the South. I think I mentioned

958
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 1: this earlier, and I was shocked that I was unaware

959
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: of how much how much ground they had gained in

960
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: taking away the right of a woman to choose whether

961
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 1: or not she has a child. And so that's just

962
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: part I mean, this conversation has to happen all across

963
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 1: this country or women will lose more and more rights. Right,

964
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 1: So now you still you you you know, when you

965
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 1: go in for an abortion day in some states, they

966
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 1: want to make you have a transagtional ultrasound and look

967
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 1: at your fetus. But what is that about? Okay, Like

968
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. So think about all the things that are

969
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 1: happening to women and women's bodies, and you know the

970
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 1: fact that women want to be able to have pleasure

971
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: sexually is just another thing that somebody will tell them

972
01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: is wrong. Right, I'm doing how lesbian women and bisexual

973
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:08,439
Speaker 1: women fit into the research that you've done. UM. Well,

974
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 1: one of the people in my film as a scientist

975
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: named Lisa Diamond, and she studies what she calls sexual fluidity,

976
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: meaning that heterosexual women can have same sex encounters UM

977
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: and not be gay, and gay women can decide to

978
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: have sexual experiences with menmen, you know, not decide to

979
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: come heterosexual. UM. And so I think, UM, I want

980
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: to explore the differences um between UM purely someone who's

981
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: solely heterosexual, although we believe Lisa Diamond all women have

982
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: are sexually fluid and so can have encounters, you know,

983
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: with women and then that's just part of their embedded

984
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: in their sexuality. UM. But one of the things I

985
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: found really interesting when I was talking with Lee with

986
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: Sophia Wallace was that she was saying, and unless women

987
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 1: really understand the clitteris and how it operates and how

988
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: it you how you get pleasure from it, then intercourse

989
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 1: simply becomes a way of male masturbation. And I thought

990
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 1: that was a pretty interesting thing to think about, UM,

991
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of women don't have an

992
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: orgasm when they have intercourse, and so without understanding your

993
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: bodies you're not, it's not gonna be a pleasurable experience. So, UM,

994
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't exactly. I'm not really answering your question. I'm

995
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 1: kind of wandering around here. UM. I'm hoping that UM

996
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: in the film that that that sort of um, you know,

997
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: gay women and bisexual women and their desire is part

998
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: of the conversation as well, because I think it's relevant

999
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: to UM, certainly to women, and I think it's relevant

1000
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 1: to men as well. Yeah, and I mean it sounds

1001
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: kind of from what you're saying, like if women better

1002
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: understand and accept not only their own anatomy, but also

1003
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: the possibility and give themselves the room to accept and

1004
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: understand and explore sexual fluidity, it sounds like that can

1005
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: only benefit their sexual lives, their sexual expression, and their

1006
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: comfort level with sex. I think that's right. And I

1007
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: think by by saying that it can only be one way, right,

1008
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: you limit um yourself exploring who you are and and um,

1009
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: what you're made of and what you're about, because that's

1010
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 1: like and that's too bad, right. I don't I think

1011
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: that that's something that would be too bad, right, So

1012
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: sex can only be one way? Or if you're heterosexual,

1013
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 1: then you don't ever want to have sex with women,

1014
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: and the same goes from them, right. I think that,

1015
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, the more restricted we more restrictions we put

1016
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: on ourselves, so less we all benefit right from all

1017
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: of it they in life that we could benefit from. Right. Um, Well, Maria,

1018
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 1: we've we've learned to all the questions I had for you.

1019
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: Is there anything else, whether it's about your documentary or

1020
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: about something you've uncovered about women's sexuality in your research

1021
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,960
Speaker 1: that you'd like to drive home to our listeners before

1022
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 1: we bring this to a close. Um, I think what

1023
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: I would like to drive home is something that I

1024
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: would say two young women, now, whether they're you know,

1025
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: sixteen years old or twenty six years old, which is this,

1026
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: you have the right to have this encounter work for

1027
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: you and your body. Isn't there solely for the pleasure

1028
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: the young boy or the man you're with. That you

1029
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: have a right to have it be an equal opportunity

1030
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: of pleasure. And that's just what I want, you know,

1031
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 1: the message of my film to come out, because it's

1032
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: I see a lot of young women who are sexual

1033
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 1: in ways that do nothing for them, right, They get

1034
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: nothing out of it, And I'm tranform. So that's what

1035
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: I would hope my film does well. I think that's

1036
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: an excellent bit of perspective for our young listeners and

1037
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: really honestly for listeners of all ages. Yeah, I think

1038
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: we could all use that advice to own our sexuality

1039
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: and do what feels great for us. And so thank

1040
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to talk with

1041
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: me today. I really appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.

1042
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: Thank you well. Thank you so much to social issue

1043
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: documentary filmmaker Maria Fanitzo for talking to us about all

1044
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: of the research who's done and interviews and the work

1045
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: that she's doing. And I very much look forward to

1046
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: watching The Dilemma of Desire. Yeah, and if you want

1047
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 1: to learn and more about the film as it's being made,

1048
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: head on over to Film Arts Productions dot com and

1049
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: look up Maria's film. It's called The Dilemma of Desire.

1050
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 1: And now, as always, we're curious to hear from you,

1051
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 1: dear listeners. What are all of your thoughts about all

1052
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: of these libido issues. Do you think that they have

1053
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: been overpathologized and medicalized? Do you think that we just

1054
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: need to relax and stop even talking about them. Let

1055
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works

1056
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can tweet us

1057
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've

1058
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now.

1059
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Joseph in response to

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Speaker 1: our Queering Romantic Comedies episode. He says LGBT movies were

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Speaker 1: hugely significan get to me growing up in a small

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Speaker 1: southern town in the nineties. They allowed me to import

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Speaker 1: gay friends and a community in high school. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: an HIV rom calm, and I think you were referring

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Speaker 1: to Jeoffrey. Interestingly, this film was written by Paul Rednick,

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Speaker 1: who also wrote In and Out, which you discussed in detail.

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Speaker 1: I did have one correction. I think you said it

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Speaker 1: had been a while since you saw Too Wong food.

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Speaker 1: Thanks her everything, Julie newmar So. Details get understandably foggy,

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Speaker 1: but in the film, while Chee Chee does have a

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Speaker 1: flirtation with a local boy, he never has a moment

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Speaker 1: where he must grapple with Chee Chee's true identity in

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Speaker 1: an act of benevolence and knowing that they could never

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Speaker 1: really be together, Chee Chee gives Bobby Ray up so

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Speaker 1: he can be with Bobby Lee, the sweet town girl

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Speaker 1: who's in love with him. Presumably, Bobby Ray learns the

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Speaker 1: truth about Chea Cheese identity when the rest of the

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Speaker 1: town does, but by then he's safely in love with

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Speaker 1: the blonde ingenue. This arguably takes too long Food out

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Speaker 1: of the romcom category and into calm Calm. I've always

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Speaker 1: classified it as a body comedy and a roach it movie.

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Speaker 1: Side note, Joseph, You're so right, and that is a

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Speaker 1: super important clarification. Also, I'm enjoying just reliving that movie

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Speaker 1: in my mind anyway, He goes on to say, also,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the queer villain in Hayes Code Cinema was

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Speaker 1: a gay male role and excluded lesbians. But while the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote cissy villains were certainly much more prevalent, there

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Speaker 1: were lesbian villains as well, including the titular character in

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Speaker 1: my favorite movie All About Eve. Also very famously, Mrs

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Speaker 1: Danvers and Rebecca, All About Eve actually features both a

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Speaker 1: lesbian villain and a quote unquote sissy gay man villain

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Speaker 1: who team up to takedown Betty Davis. Well, not exactly,

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Speaker 1: but that's the funniest way to say it. Thanks for

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01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: shedding light on interesting and important topics. Here's to the

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Speaker 1: continuing evolution of the gay romcom, which may or may

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Speaker 1: not end, and heteronormative marriage depending on the viewpoint of

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Speaker 1: the filmmakers. So thank you, Joseph. And I've got a

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Speaker 1: letter here from Marin about our episode a while back

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Speaker 1: on the Prince of Queer Fashion and Marin Rights. I

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Speaker 1: love the history of fashion, so this was straight up

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01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,679
Speaker 1: my alley. Your reference tell the song Yankee Doodle talks

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Speaker 1: about dandies, and in college I took a class called

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01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 1: Vampires and Slavic Culture. Best class ever butw and we

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Speaker 1: talked about dandies and their influence on vampire literature in

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Speaker 1: the UK. The song Yankee Doodle was brought up, of course,

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Speaker 1: and another great mystery of the lyrics, at least to me,

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Speaker 1: was cleared up. He stuck a feather in his cap

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Speaker 1: and called it MACARONI was not referencing the delicious posty

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Speaker 1: with cheese, but a group of men in eighteenth century

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Speaker 1: England who had traveled to Italy and enjoyed dressing outlandishly

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01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: and speaking effeminately in the eyes of their English critics

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Speaker 1: as they were supposedly adopting the Italian vogue, which they

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Speaker 1: referred to as macaroni. I always look forward to listening

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Speaker 1: to you ladies every week. Please keep up the awesome

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Speaker 1: work well. Thank you so much, Marin uh And I

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Speaker 1: wish that I had taken vampires and Slavic culture when

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Speaker 1: I was in college. I just wish I had macaroni now.

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Speaker 1: And if you've got letters for us, mom, stuff at

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is where you can send

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Speaker 1: them and for links to all of our social media

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01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts

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01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 1: with our sources so you can learn more about the

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Speaker 1: science of female libido. Head on over to stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and

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Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot

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Speaker 1: com