WEBVTT - How did Thurgood Marshall become such an Incredible Lawyer? 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:08.440 Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:12.320 Guess what, Mango? 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:13.440 What's that? Will? All? Right? 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:14.960 Well, you know how people like to keep tabs on 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:16.799 their old classmates, you know, just you can see what 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:18.080 everybody's wound up doing. 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.720 That is why I joined Facebook. I want to see 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:22.799 what people are doing. I want to see how my 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:24.880 high school rivals are doing terribly. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.200 I hope did you recently join Facebook? 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:27.600 Yes? 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.479 Yeah, loves to discover it like your grandmother. That's pretty great. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.840 Actually, I was thinking about that this week while reading 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.360 up on THURGOODE. Marshal, and it actually made me feel 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.320 so bad for the Lincoln College class of nineteen thirty, 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:39.560 which I know you're I think you're. 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:41.520 An expert on the Lincoln College class of nineteen thirty. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.120 I am not, but I'm guessing it's because they graduated 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:47.760 a future Supreme Court justice. 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:48.720 Well, that's the thing. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.239 So Lincoln's class of nineteen thirty was actually home to 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.680 a slew of prominent black leaders. So for literature, you 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.279 had Langston Hughes. For music, there was Cab Callaway. Then 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.160 of course there was Marshall himself, who made this colossal 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.600 name for himself in the legal system and on the 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.440 political side of things, the class said Kwame Nakruma of 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.160 the future President of Ghana. 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:09.240 Isn't that unbelievable? 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:11.880 I mean, no matter which field the other students went into, 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.759 they were all pretty much guaranteed to be out shown 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.640 by those classmates. But the more I poked around Marshall's biography, 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:20.759 the more I wanted to know. 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:21.880 How did he become such. 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.319 A larger than life figure in the courtroom, how did 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.120 he look at the constitution and did he really take 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.199 the oath of office from an ex clan member? 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:44.080 So let's dive in. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.040 Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.280 Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.600 friend mangesh Hot Ticketer and on the other side of 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:02.080 the soundproof glass watching old Days of Our Lives reruns. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:03.800 This gives him an excuse to do this because I 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:05.520 know he likes to do this on the quiet, but 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.080 in honor of Thurgood Marshall. 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.200 That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.200 I know it's a tribute, but uh, I do feel 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:13.800 like Tristan just loves his stories. 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.520 He does. He definitely loves his stories. 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.560 Well that was my first thought, but Tristan was so 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:21.040 adamant about only watching episodes from the nineteen seventies and 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.600 eighties that it made me wonder if there really was 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.040 a connection. So we did a little bit of digging, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.200 of course, and it turns out that during his years 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.720 on the bench, Justice Third Good Marshall was actually a big. 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:32.959 Fan of Days of Our Lives. 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.080 And I love this, but I mean, like really a 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.040 fan of soap operas in general. And apparently he once 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.840 told Justice Brennan there was quote a lot to be 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.440 learned about life from soap operas. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.800 So things like how to stop your evil twin from 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:47.000 stealing the men you love. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.960 I imagine these practical life lessons, and Justice Marshall didn't 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.320 want to miss any of them. In fact, Time magazine 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.839 ran to this report this was back in nineteen seventy six, 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.080 claiming that Marshall would often call a recess right around 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.880 one pm so that he could watch the latest Days 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.200 of Our Lives episode in his chambers. You know, I 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.200 guess they didn't have a way to a TVO or 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.519 record things, did I just say TVO? Anyway, Sometimes he 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:12.919 would be late to his next meeting because he didn't 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.520 want to miss the end of an episode. 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:17.560 I totally said TiVo. 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.400 So obviously this is a funny thing to point out, because, 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.160 you know, aside from his odd TV habit, which actually 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.799 makes him feel pretty human, like, his legacy is just stunning. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.160 I mean, you think about the pivotal role he had 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.440 in the civil rights movement. His landmark appointment is the 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.800 first black member of the Supreme Court. There's just a 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.520 ton to discuss here. Yeah, there definitely is. All right, well, 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:40.960 I'll leave it up to you. Where do you want 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.560 to start? How about with a bombshell? You know how 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.880 I like to start these things, Yeah, with bombshells. Apparently, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:51.000 Third Good Marshall's name wasn't actually Thirgood Marshall when he 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.160 was born in Maryland. This is in nineteen oh eight. 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.440 He was actually given the name thorough Good Marshal, like 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.200 the word thorough right good put together. But it was 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.640 such a mouth and so annoying, the spell that Marshall 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.280 told this reporter. By the time I reached the second grade, 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.200 I got tired of spelling all that out and had 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:08.360 shortened it to Thurgood. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.800 I love that he had decided this by second grade. 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.120 And that's pretty amazing. All right, Well, I actually didn't 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:14.520 know his name was abbreviated, but. 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:16.320 What else did you dig up on his childhood? 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:18.720 So he was born and raised in Baltimore, This is 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.520 around the turn of the twentieth century. He had one 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:26.120 older brother, this guy, William Aubrey Marshall. His mother was 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.520 a school teacher, and his father, William Canfield Marshall, worked 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.560 as a dining car waiter on a railroad and then 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.400 later is this steward at a fancy country club. So 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.799 the Marshals weren't exactly wealthy, but they felt middle class. 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.279 And that's kind of amazing in itself when you consider 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.200 that Goood's father was actually the grandson of a former slave. 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.919 And this was not lost on Thoroughgood, like the social 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.880 progress that was made just a generation or two, and 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.720 of course later he'd make it his mission to sort 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.360 of push progress even further. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.279 So I'm curious how did Thurgood get interested in law 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.360 in the first place, because I was looking at lot 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.240 about his early legal career, but there really wasn't a 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.120 lot of insight into what made him want to be 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:05.880 a lawyer. 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.559 So from everything I read, it was really his father 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.599 who kind of sparked this passion. His dad, William, was 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.000 this amateur writer, and he'd also been interested in legal 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.000 proceedings and how courts worked, and it was such an 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.000 obsession for him that in his free time he liked 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.080 to go down to the local courthouse and listen to 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.920 the civil and criminal trials. And sometimes he'd bring his 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.800 sons along too. But this is the amazing part. Right 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.119 when they got home, the three of them would actually 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.279 lay out all the arguments they'd heard that day and 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.560 then had these big, lively debates around the dinner table. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.279 And sometimes these discussions would happen five times in a week. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.480 So in all this excitement, Thurgood really started to develop 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.880 this interest in law and how to use words to 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.800 confront and justice. In fact, we actually have their good's 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.240 words on this. In nineteen sixty five, he talked about 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.400 his father's influence, saying, quote, he did it by teaching 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.320 me to argue, by challenging my logic on every point, 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.400 by making me prove every statement. He never told me 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.280 to be a lawyer, but he turned me into one. 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.120 You know, my son is big into this series by 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.320 John Grisham called Theodore Boone, have your. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:07.640 Kids I've discovered this yet. 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:09.960 So that's all I think about law now is like 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.080 what kids are in the courtroom, like listening to these cases. 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.200 But did you get a sense for like what kinds 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.960 of cases the marshals were scrutinizing when they were at home? 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:20.360 So Gaye pulled a ton of this for us, and 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.360 he couldn't track down specific cases, but it is easy 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:24.839 to imagine that they would have seen a lot of 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.880 cases involving racial discrimination. When Thurgood was growing up in Baltimore, 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.360 the city's death rate for African Americans was actually double 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.800 that of white residents, and because of segregation, he and 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.360 his brother were actually forced to attend this all black 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.400 public school. So he felt all of this at this 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.640 really early age, and what he saw in both court 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.880 and the classroom that really shaped the viewpoints he'd ultimately 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.960 spend his life fighting for right. 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.360 So he was obviously engaged in a lot of self education, 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.680 a really curious kid and observing all these trials, debating 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.040 law with his dad. But I'm curious, how was he 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.880 in school? Like was he a pretty good student grade wise? 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:02.440 He was excellent in high school. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.640 His grades were above average, and he made a name 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.280 for himself on the debate team, you know, thanks to 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.520 all this practice that he and his dad had had 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.280 at home. But when it came to behavior, Good was 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:13.640 actually kind of a trouble maker. 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:14.080 Really. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:16.840 Yeah, you might even say he no, no, no. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.000 Do not say third Bad. I could tell I knew 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:21.040 that's where you were going with that. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.640 Yeah, that's probably for the best. But he actually misbehaved 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.920 a lot at school, and whenever he did, his teachers 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.400 would make him read the Constitution as punishment. 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:30.640 And here's the. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.480 Thing, Third Good gotten so much trouble that by the 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.680 time he graduated in nineteen twenty five, which was a 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.240 year early, he had memorized the entire Constitution. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:40.040 Wow. 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.400 You know, it's funny they didn't realize how much they 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.960 were contributing to his, you know, excellence in this in 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:46.920 this field. And listening to you lay all this out, 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.640 I mean, it's pretty amazing how all these different little 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.920 things in his life seemed to be working together to 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.480 sort of, you know, nudge him along a certain path. 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.360 And I mean, I know we're looking at all this 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.560 in hindsight and speaking in these broad terms, but his 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.640 family history, his city, his school. His dad's interests, of course, 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.240 and now even his punishments contributed to this. But you know, 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.120 when you take it all together, it almost seems inevitable 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.440 that he would become a lawyer and fight for civil rights. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.680 Yeah, and I guess they're a good agreed with you, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.120 because after graduating college in nineteen thirty, he immediately applied 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.600 to the University of Maryland law school. And this is 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.000 actually where one of those nudges down the path comes in, 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:28.080 because despite a glowing high school transcript, the college ultimately 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.080 rejected They're Good because of the color of his skin. 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:32.760 But even though this is jumping a little bit ahead, 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.520 I want to give you some instant satisfaction by telling 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.360 you that about five years after he applied, They're Good 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.200 actually helped launch and win the case that brought an 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.680 end to segregation at the very school that rejected him. 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.040 Oh wow, it's pretty sweet vindication. That's pretty great and 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:48.880 I can only imagine how good it must have felt 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.680 when that verdict came in. And I'm curious, though, like, 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.880 where did Marshall wind up studying law? 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.920 So instead of Maryland, Marshall went to law school at 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:01.280 Howard University, which is obviously historically black, though segregation wasn't 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.360 an issue, and at the time, the dean of the 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.520 law school was this super well respected civil rights lawyer 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.400 named Charles Houston, and on campus, Houston had this reputation 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:14.360 for being super strict and demanding, but Marshall actually responded 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.640 well to the style of teaching, and in fact, the 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.160 two hit it off so well that Houston became a 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.120 mentor to Marshall and years later they worked closely together 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.120 in the legal division of the NAACP. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.040 Yeah, and Marshall's work with the NAACP became the cornerstone 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.120 of his career, so I definitely say he chose the 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.760 right mentor in Houston. So when did Marshall first get 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.160 involved with the NAACP. Was that straight out of law school? 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.920 No, So, Marshall actually passed the bar exam and graduated 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.920 from Howard with honors, but he spent his first few 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.520 post grad years trying to get this private practice going 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.160 in Baltimore. He landed a few small cases every now 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.679 and then, but none of them paid very much, and 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.680 things got so bad that in nineteen thirty four, Thurgood 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.000 was forced to take a second job at an STD 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.959 clinic just to make rent. In fact, if you remember 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.800 breakthrough case I mentioned earlier, the one where Thurgood got 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.679 the University of Maryland to desegregate, he was working the 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.440 late shift at that clinic the whole time he prepped 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:08.960 for the case. 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:09.520 Oh wow. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.160 And even when he moved to New York City in 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.040 nineteen thirty six to work full time for the NAACP, 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.200 Thurgood was so concerned that things wouldn't pan out as 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.880 a lawyer that he didn't actually quit his job at 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.040 the clinic. He just requested a six month leave of absence. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.400 That's how touch and go things were for him as 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:26.120 a young lawyer. 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:27.040 That is pretty wild. 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.040 You mentioned Marshall's mentor was involved with the NAACP. Did 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.120 he actually have something to do with Marshall getting called 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:34.560 up to New York So. 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.360 Charles Houston had actually resigned as dean in nineteen thirty 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.800 five so that he could become the first legal counsel 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.040 for the NUBACP, and by the time Marshall joined on 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.640 a year later, Houston had already become the director of 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.360 the group's legal division, and the two worked side by 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.720 side on civil rights cases for the next few years, 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.000 and then when Houston retired from the role in nineteen forty, 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.840 Thurgood stepped in and he really didn't miss a beat. 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.360 He stayed on as director all throughout the forties and 0:10:59.400 --> 0:10:59.920 the fifties. 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.120 Yeah, and that's probably the portion of his career that 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.040 I feel most familiar with, you know, all the landmark 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.319 cases he tackled, and you know, not just his a 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.800 justice serving on the Supreme Court, but as a lawyer 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.840 arguing in front of the Supreme Court, which is perfect 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:14.480 because I'll hand you the baton and you can walk 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:15.200 us through it. 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.320 But let's take a quick break first. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:33.680 You're listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking about 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.599 how Thurgood Marshall earned his seat on the highest. 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:37.120 Court in the country. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:39.320 And I feel like you were maybe alluding to this 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.280 answer just before the break. You were saying that it 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.400 was Marshall's time with the NAACP that really won him 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:45.000 his acclaim. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:46.120 Yeah, it's definitely true. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.560 I mean, Marshall served as the group's top attorney for 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.200 a little over two decades and this was when he 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.360 really made a name for himself because during that period 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.760 he argued at record setting thirty two cases before the 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.640 Supreme Court. And get this, So, out of those thirty 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.079 two civil rights cases, Marshall won. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.800 Twenty nine of those, not a bad average at all. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.880 Even today, all these decades later, Marshall is still near 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:10.680 the top of the list for the number of cases 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.000 argued and one before the Supreme Court. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.520 I mean, that's stunning. But what were some of his 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.880 biggest wins. Well, his first Supreme Court victory was a 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.160 pretty big one. So this was a nineteen forty case. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.840 It was called Chambers versus Florida, and it dealt with 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:25.920 these four black men who had confessed to a murder 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:30.040 earlier that year and had been sentenced to death for it. However, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.440 Marshall was able to show that their confessions to the 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.520 crime had been coerced by the police. So the four 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.800 suspects had been held in police custody for a full week, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.480 never given access to legal counsel, and despite this, the 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.880 men had been questioned individually throughout the week, with as 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.360 many as ten police officers and community members present during 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.200 these interrogations, but again no lawyers were present, and because 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.599 this was all prior to the establishment of Miranda rights, 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.520 no one told the men that they had the right 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.160 to remain silent during these interrogations. So in the end, 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.440 the court ruled that the confessions that had led to 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.040 a conviction had not been given voluntarily, which made them inadmissible. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.280 So the death sent its ruling was actually overturned. I mean, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.319 it is wild to think that there was a time 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.880 when those kinds of tactics were actually the norm, you know, 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.400 holding people without charges, denying them counsel, and of course, 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.200 you know, these civil rights violations still happened, but in 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:25.839 the era we're talking about, it sounds like it was 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.319 more or less acceptable behavior until cases like this were 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:30.000 brought to trial. 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.240 Yeah, it would actually be another twenty six years after 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.480 the Chambers case before those tactics would finally be outlawed 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:36.960 by the court. 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.640 And that's when police actually had to start telling suspects 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.160 that they had the right to an attorney and the 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:42.480 right to remain silent and all that. 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.520 Yep, that was the ruling in the Miranda versus Arizona 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.520 case of nineteen sixty six, which by the way, was 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.560 also a case that Marshall argued, though he was the 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.600 Solicitor General by that point and no longer working for 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.079 the NAACP and Marshall had a slew of other landmark 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.480 victories in the years between Chambers and Miranda, but the 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.560 biggest had to be Brown versus the Board of Education, 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.440 you know, the case that brought down school segregation and 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.760 the whole separate but Equal doctrine. So there's no question 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:12.720 that was one of the most important cases of the 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.160 twentieth century and probably the most defining moment of Marshall's 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:16.840 whole career. 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.840 And this was in the early fifties, right, Yes. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.240 Was nineteen fifty four, so this was really before the 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.240 civil rights movement had gotten into full swing. It was 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.360 a year before Rosa Park's bus ride, three years before 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.040 the Civil Rights Act of nineteen fifty seven, and so 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.640 the Brown case was kind of a precursor to all 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:34.000 of that. 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:35.800 And it may have taken a while for. 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.040 The positive ruling to be fully enforced, but right from 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.600 the outset, it definitely helped kick off the movement and 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.120 kind of pave the way for more civil rights victories 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:44.480 to come. 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.440 So, I know the main takeaways from the Brown case 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.440 have been covered pretty well by now, but could you 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.960 maybe run through the basics just for certainly for me 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:53.960 before anyone else who might have forgotten. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:54.640 Sure. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.800 So basically Marshall was representing a group of black parents 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.680 whose children had been forced to attend all black schools. 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.680 And this was in Topeka, Kansas, you might remember. And 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.120 of course this was a case that was near Marshall's 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.840 heart because this was something he had experienced himself, first 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.520 in high school and then of course again in college. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.440 So in the end, Marshall argued that separate educational facilities 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:21.640 are inherently unequal and therefore unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.880 agreed with him unanimously actually, So to be clear that 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.560 positive ruling was never guaranteed given the political climate of 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.280 the era, particularly in the South, you know, where Jim 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.520 Crow laws were still very much in effect, but it 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.360 helped that Marshall was so forceful and so clear when 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.000 exposing the hypocrisies of the current laws in court. So, 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:43.480 for example, there was one point during the Brown Arguments 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.960 when the Attorney General of Virginia complained that bringing the 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.000 case before the court was an assault by the NAACP 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.520 on the quote cherished heritage of segregation. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:54.080 Wow. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:56.040 Yeah, And it gets even worse when you hear how 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.520 the Attorney General phrased all this. He said that the 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.040 NAACP was trying to quote, press this crown of thorns 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.200 upon our brow and hold the hemlock to our lips. 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.560 It's just so bizarre, which I guess is a dual reference, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.720 likening the fall of segregation to both the crucifixion of 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.800 Christ and the death of Socrates. I'm not really interesting, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:21.040 but just like you said, it is definitely messy and weird. Yeah, 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.600 and you know you'll actually like Marshall's response to this. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.200 So he told the court, you have heard references to 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:30.040 one state's greatest and most cherished heritage, and when you 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.640 look for it, you find that greatest and most cherished 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.120 heritage is to segregate colored people. 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.640 I mean, it's just signing to me that they voted 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.160 unanimously right with him. It's crazy. But I do want 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:42.800 to go back to something you mentioned a little earlier. 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.320 You said, Marshall became the Solicitor General in the. 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.160 Sixties, right, Yeah, So Marshall actually received a couple of 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.720 presidential appointments before finally being called up to the Supreme Court. 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.600 He left the NAACP in the early sixties, and this 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.240 was to serve on the US Court of Appeals and 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.680 that was after being nominated by President Kennedy, and then 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.679 four years later Kennedy's successor, Linda Johnson, he appointed Marshall 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.320 the first black solicitor General in US history, which. 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.600 Is obviously important historically, but I feel like I'd appreciate 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.600 a little bit more if I actually knew what a 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:14.720 solicitor general did. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.520 You don't think about this every day. That's fair. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.160 Well, so, the solicitor General is, as you might expect, 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.520 a legal post, and it's basically the attorney who goes 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.879 before the Supreme Court to argue cases on behalf of 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.600 the federal government. So a lot like what he had 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.480 done for twenty years with the NAACP, but now with 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.440 the federal government as his client. 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.280 So I get what he does now. Was he still 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.080 sticking to arguing civil rights cases once he started working 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:42.560 for the government or did that all change? 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:43.520 No, he definitely was. 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.440 And it was during this time on the Court of 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.960 Appeals that Marshall issued over one hundred decisions on civil 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.960 rights battles as well as other hot button issues like 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.080 women's rights, police brutality, and amazingly, none of these hundred 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.199 plus decisions were overturned by the Supreme Court and had 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.440 a similarly strong record during his two years as Solicitor 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.720 General two So he argued nineteen cases before the Supreme 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.600 Court during that stint, and one fourteen of those. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:11.159 That is really impressive. 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:12.120