1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 2: Guess what, Mango? 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: What's that? Will? All? Right? 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 3: Well, you know how people like to keep tabs on 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 3: their old classmates, you know, just you can see what 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 3: everybody's wound up doing. 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: That is why I joined Facebook. I want to see 8 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: what people are doing. I want to see how my 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: high school rivals are doing terribly. 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: I hope did you recently join Facebook? 11 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Yes? 12 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, loves to discover it like your grandmother. That's pretty great. 13 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 3: Actually, I was thinking about that this week while reading 14 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: up on THURGOODE. Marshal, and it actually made me feel 15 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 3: so bad for the Lincoln College class of nineteen thirty, 16 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 3: which I know you're I think you're. 17 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 2: An expert on the Lincoln College class of nineteen thirty. 18 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: I am not, but I'm guessing it's because they graduated 19 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: a future Supreme Court justice. 20 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. 21 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 3: So Lincoln's class of nineteen thirty was actually home to 22 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 3: a slew of prominent black leaders. So for literature, you 23 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 3: had Langston Hughes. For music, there was Cab Callaway. Then 24 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: of course there was Marshall himself, who made this colossal 25 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 3: name for himself in the legal system and on the 26 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: political side of things, the class said Kwame Nakruma of 27 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 3: the future President of Ghana. 28 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: Isn't that unbelievable? 29 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 3: I mean, no matter which field the other students went into, 30 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 3: they were all pretty much guaranteed to be out shown 31 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 3: by those classmates. But the more I poked around Marshall's biography, 32 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 3: the more I wanted to know. 33 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: How did he become such. 34 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 3: A larger than life figure in the courtroom, how did 35 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 3: he look at the constitution and did he really take 36 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 3: the oath of office from an ex clan member? 37 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 4: So let's dive in. 38 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 39 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 3: Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 40 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: friend mangesh Hot Ticketer and on the other side of 41 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 3: the soundproof glass watching old Days of Our Lives reruns. 42 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 3: This gives him an excuse to do this because I 43 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: know he likes to do this on the quiet, but 44 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 3: in honor of Thurgood Marshall. 45 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. 46 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: I know it's a tribute, but uh, I do feel 47 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: like Tristan just loves his stories. 48 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: He does. He definitely loves his stories. 49 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: Well that was my first thought, but Tristan was so 50 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: adamant about only watching episodes from the nineteen seventies and 51 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: eighties that it made me wonder if there really was 52 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 3: a connection. So we did a little bit of digging, 53 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: of course, and it turns out that during his years 54 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 3: on the bench, Justice Third Good Marshall was actually a big. 55 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 2: Fan of Days of Our Lives. 56 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: And I love this, but I mean, like really a 57 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 3: fan of soap operas in general. And apparently he once 58 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: told Justice Brennan there was quote a lot to be 59 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: learned about life from soap operas. 60 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: So things like how to stop your evil twin from 61 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: stealing the men you love. 62 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: I imagine these practical life lessons, and Justice Marshall didn't 63 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: want to miss any of them. In fact, Time magazine 64 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 3: ran to this report this was back in nineteen seventy six, 65 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 3: claiming that Marshall would often call a recess right around 66 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 3: one pm so that he could watch the latest Days 67 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: of Our Lives episode in his chambers. You know, I 68 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: guess they didn't have a way to a TVO or 69 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 3: record things, did I just say TVO? Anyway, Sometimes he 70 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 3: would be late to his next meeting because he didn't 71 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: want to miss the end of an episode. 72 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: I totally said TiVo. 73 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: So obviously this is a funny thing to point out, because, 74 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, aside from his odd TV habit, which actually 75 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: makes him feel pretty human, like, his legacy is just stunning. 76 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you think about the pivotal role he had 77 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement. His landmark appointment is the 78 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: first black member of the Supreme Court. There's just a 79 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: ton to discuss here. Yeah, there definitely is. All right, well, 80 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: I'll leave it up to you. Where do you want 81 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: to start? How about with a bombshell? You know how 82 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: I like to start these things, Yeah, with bombshells. Apparently, 83 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: Third Good Marshall's name wasn't actually Thirgood Marshall when he 84 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: was born in Maryland. This is in nineteen oh eight. 85 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: He was actually given the name thorough Good Marshal, like 86 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: the word thorough right good put together. But it was 87 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: such a mouth and so annoying, the spell that Marshall 88 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: told this reporter. By the time I reached the second grade, 89 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: I got tired of spelling all that out and had 90 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: shortened it to Thurgood. 91 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 3: I love that he had decided this by second grade. 92 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 3: And that's pretty amazing. All right, Well, I actually didn't 93 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 3: know his name was abbreviated, but. 94 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: What else did you dig up on his childhood? 95 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: So he was born and raised in Baltimore, This is 96 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: around the turn of the twentieth century. He had one 97 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: older brother, this guy, William Aubrey Marshall. His mother was 98 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: a school teacher, and his father, William Canfield Marshall, worked 99 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: as a dining car waiter on a railroad and then 100 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: later is this steward at a fancy country club. So 101 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 1: the Marshals weren't exactly wealthy, but they felt middle class. 102 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: And that's kind of amazing in itself when you consider 103 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: that Goood's father was actually the grandson of a former slave. 104 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: And this was not lost on Thoroughgood, like the social 105 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: progress that was made just a generation or two, and 106 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: of course later he'd make it his mission to sort 107 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: of push progress even further. 108 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 3: So I'm curious how did Thurgood get interested in law 109 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 3: in the first place, because I was looking at lot 110 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 3: about his early legal career, but there really wasn't a 111 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: lot of insight into what made him want to be 112 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: a lawyer. 113 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,559 Speaker 1: So from everything I read, it was really his father 114 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: who kind of sparked this passion. His dad, William, was 115 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: this amateur writer, and he'd also been interested in legal 116 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: proceedings and how courts worked, and it was such an 117 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: obsession for him that in his free time he liked 118 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: to go down to the local courthouse and listen to 119 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: the civil and criminal trials. And sometimes he'd bring his 120 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: sons along too. But this is the amazing part. Right 121 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 1: when they got home, the three of them would actually 122 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: lay out all the arguments they'd heard that day and 123 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: then had these big, lively debates around the dinner table. 124 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: And sometimes these discussions would happen five times in a week. 125 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: So in all this excitement, Thurgood really started to develop 126 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: this interest in law and how to use words to 127 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: confront and justice. In fact, we actually have their good's 128 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: words on this. In nineteen sixty five, he talked about 129 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: his father's influence, saying, quote, he did it by teaching 130 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: me to argue, by challenging my logic on every point, 131 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: by making me prove every statement. He never told me 132 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: to be a lawyer, but he turned me into one. 133 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 3: You know, my son is big into this series by 134 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: John Grisham called Theodore Boone, have your. 135 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: Kids I've discovered this yet. 136 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 3: So that's all I think about law now is like 137 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: what kids are in the courtroom, like listening to these cases. 138 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: But did you get a sense for like what kinds 139 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: of cases the marshals were scrutinizing when they were at home? 140 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: So Gaye pulled a ton of this for us, and 141 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: he couldn't track down specific cases, but it is easy 142 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: to imagine that they would have seen a lot of 143 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: cases involving racial discrimination. When Thurgood was growing up in Baltimore, 144 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: the city's death rate for African Americans was actually double 145 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: that of white residents, and because of segregation, he and 146 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: his brother were actually forced to attend this all black 147 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: public school. So he felt all of this at this 148 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: really early age, and what he saw in both court 149 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: and the classroom that really shaped the viewpoints he'd ultimately 150 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: spend his life fighting for right. 151 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: So he was obviously engaged in a lot of self education, 152 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: a really curious kid and observing all these trials, debating 153 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 3: law with his dad. But I'm curious, how was he 154 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: in school? Like was he a pretty good student grade wise? 155 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: He was excellent in high school. 156 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: His grades were above average, and he made a name 157 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: for himself on the debate team, you know, thanks to 158 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: all this practice that he and his dad had had 159 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: at home. But when it came to behavior, Good was 160 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: actually kind of a trouble maker. 161 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: Really. 162 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you might even say he no, no, no. 163 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 3: Do not say third Bad. I could tell I knew 164 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: that's where you were going with that. 165 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably for the best. But he actually misbehaved 166 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: a lot at school, and whenever he did, his teachers 167 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: would make him read the Constitution as punishment. 168 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 2: And here's the. 169 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: Thing, Third Good gotten so much trouble that by the 170 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: time he graduated in nineteen twenty five, which was a 171 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: year early, he had memorized the entire Constitution. 172 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 173 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: You know, it's funny they didn't realize how much they 174 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: were contributing to his, you know, excellence in this in 175 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 3: this field. And listening to you lay all this out, 176 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: I mean, it's pretty amazing how all these different little 177 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: things in his life seemed to be working together to 178 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: sort of, you know, nudge him along a certain path. 179 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: And I mean, I know we're looking at all this 180 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 3: in hindsight and speaking in these broad terms, but his 181 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: family history, his city, his school. His dad's interests, of course, 182 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: and now even his punishments contributed to this. But you know, 183 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: when you take it all together, it almost seems inevitable 184 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: that he would become a lawyer and fight for civil rights. 185 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess they're a good agreed with you, 186 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: because after graduating college in nineteen thirty, he immediately applied 187 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: to the University of Maryland law school. And this is 188 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: actually where one of those nudges down the path comes in, 189 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: because despite a glowing high school transcript, the college ultimately 190 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: rejected They're Good because of the color of his skin. 191 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: But even though this is jumping a little bit ahead, 192 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: I want to give you some instant satisfaction by telling 193 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: you that about five years after he applied, They're Good 194 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: actually helped launch and win the case that brought an 195 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: end to segregation at the very school that rejected him. 196 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: Oh wow, it's pretty sweet vindication. That's pretty great and 197 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: I can only imagine how good it must have felt 198 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: when that verdict came in. And I'm curious, though, like, 199 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: where did Marshall wind up studying law? 200 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: So instead of Maryland, Marshall went to law school at 201 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: Howard University, which is obviously historically black, though segregation wasn't 202 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: an issue, and at the time, the dean of the 203 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: law school was this super well respected civil rights lawyer 204 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: named Charles Houston, and on campus, Houston had this reputation 205 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: for being super strict and demanding, but Marshall actually responded 206 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: well to the style of teaching, and in fact, the 207 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: two hit it off so well that Houston became a 208 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: mentor to Marshall and years later they worked closely together 209 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: in the legal division of the NAACP. 210 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and Marshall's work with the NAACP became the cornerstone 211 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 3: of his career, so I definitely say he chose the 212 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: right mentor in Houston. So when did Marshall first get 213 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: involved with the NAACP. Was that straight out of law school? 214 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: No, So, Marshall actually passed the bar exam and graduated 215 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: from Howard with honors, but he spent his first few 216 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: post grad years trying to get this private practice going 217 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: in Baltimore. He landed a few small cases every now 218 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: and then, but none of them paid very much, and 219 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: things got so bad that in nineteen thirty four, Thurgood 220 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: was forced to take a second job at an STD 221 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: clinic just to make rent. In fact, if you remember 222 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: breakthrough case I mentioned earlier, the one where Thurgood got 223 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: the University of Maryland to desegregate, he was working the 224 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: late shift at that clinic the whole time he prepped 225 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: for the case. 226 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 227 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: And even when he moved to New York City in 228 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six to work full time for the NAACP, 229 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: Thurgood was so concerned that things wouldn't pan out as 230 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: a lawyer that he didn't actually quit his job at 231 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: the clinic. He just requested a six month leave of absence. 232 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: That's how touch and go things were for him as 233 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: a young lawyer. 234 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: That is pretty wild. 235 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: You mentioned Marshall's mentor was involved with the NAACP. Did 236 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: he actually have something to do with Marshall getting called 237 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: up to New York So. 238 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: Charles Houston had actually resigned as dean in nineteen thirty 239 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: five so that he could become the first legal counsel 240 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: for the NUBACP, and by the time Marshall joined on 241 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: a year later, Houston had already become the director of 242 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: the group's legal division, and the two worked side by 243 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: side on civil rights cases for the next few years, 244 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: and then when Houston retired from the role in nineteen forty, 245 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: Thurgood stepped in and he really didn't miss a beat. 246 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: He stayed on as director all throughout the forties and 247 00:10:59,400 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: the fifties. 248 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's probably the portion of his career that 249 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: I feel most familiar with, you know, all the landmark 250 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 3: cases he tackled, and you know, not just his a 251 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 3: justice serving on the Supreme Court, but as a lawyer 252 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: arguing in front of the Supreme Court, which is perfect 253 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: because I'll hand you the baton and you can walk 254 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 3: us through it. 255 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: But let's take a quick break first. 256 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 3: You're listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking about 257 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 3: how Thurgood Marshall earned his seat on the highest. 258 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: Court in the country. 259 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: And I feel like you were maybe alluding to this 260 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: answer just before the break. You were saying that it 261 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: was Marshall's time with the NAACP that really won him 262 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: his acclaim. 263 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's definitely true. 264 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 3: I mean, Marshall served as the group's top attorney for 265 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 3: a little over two decades and this was when he 266 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: really made a name for himself because during that period 267 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: he argued at record setting thirty two cases before the 268 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: Supreme Court. And get this, So, out of those thirty 269 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 3: two civil rights cases, Marshall won. 270 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: Twenty nine of those, not a bad average at all. 271 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: Even today, all these decades later, Marshall is still near 272 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 3: the top of the list for the number of cases 273 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 3: argued and one before the Supreme Court. 274 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's stunning. But what were some of his 275 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: biggest wins. Well, his first Supreme Court victory was a 276 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: pretty big one. So this was a nineteen forty case. 277 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: It was called Chambers versus Florida, and it dealt with 278 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: these four black men who had confessed to a murder 279 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: earlier that year and had been sentenced to death for it. However, 280 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: Marshall was able to show that their confessions to the 281 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: crime had been coerced by the police. So the four 282 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: suspects had been held in police custody for a full week, 283 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: never given access to legal counsel, and despite this, the 284 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: men had been questioned individually throughout the week, with as 285 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: many as ten police officers and community members present during 286 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: these interrogations, but again no lawyers were present, and because 287 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 1: this was all prior to the establishment of Miranda rights, 288 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: no one told the men that they had the right 289 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: to remain silent during these interrogations. So in the end, 290 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: the court ruled that the confessions that had led to 291 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: a conviction had not been given voluntarily, which made them inadmissible. 292 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: So the death sent its ruling was actually overturned. I mean, 293 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: it is wild to think that there was a time 294 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: when those kinds of tactics were actually the norm, you know, 295 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: holding people without charges, denying them counsel, and of course, 296 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, these civil rights violations still happened, but in 297 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: the era we're talking about, it sounds like it was 298 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: more or less acceptable behavior until cases like this were 299 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: brought to trial. 300 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it would actually be another twenty six years after 301 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: the Chambers case before those tactics would finally be outlawed 302 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: by the court. 303 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: And that's when police actually had to start telling suspects 304 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: that they had the right to an attorney and the 305 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: right to remain silent and all that. 306 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: Yep, that was the ruling in the Miranda versus Arizona 307 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 3: case of nineteen sixty six, which by the way, was 308 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 3: also a case that Marshall argued, though he was the 309 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 3: Solicitor General by that point and no longer working for 310 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 3: the NAACP and Marshall had a slew of other landmark 311 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: victories in the years between Chambers and Miranda, but the 312 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: biggest had to be Brown versus the Board of Education, 313 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 3: you know, the case that brought down school segregation and 314 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: the whole separate but Equal doctrine. So there's no question 315 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: that was one of the most important cases of the 316 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 3: twentieth century and probably the most defining moment of Marshall's 317 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 3: whole career. 318 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: And this was in the early fifties, right, Yes. 319 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: Was nineteen fifty four, so this was really before the 320 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 3: civil rights movement had gotten into full swing. It was 321 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 3: a year before Rosa Park's bus ride, three years before 322 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: the Civil Rights Act of nineteen fifty seven, and so 323 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: the Brown case was kind of a precursor to all 324 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 3: of that. 325 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: And it may have taken a while for. 326 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 3: The positive ruling to be fully enforced, but right from 327 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 3: the outset, it definitely helped kick off the movement and 328 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 3: kind of pave the way for more civil rights victories 329 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: to come. 330 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: So, I know the main takeaways from the Brown case 331 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: have been covered pretty well by now, but could you 332 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: maybe run through the basics just for certainly for me 333 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: before anyone else who might have forgotten. 334 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: Sure. 335 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: So basically Marshall was representing a group of black parents 336 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: whose children had been forced to attend all black schools. 337 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 3: And this was in Topeka, Kansas, you might remember. And 338 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 3: of course this was a case that was near Marshall's 339 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 3: heart because this was something he had experienced himself, first 340 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: in high school and then of course again in college. 341 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: So in the end, Marshall argued that separate educational facilities 342 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 3: are inherently unequal and therefore unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court 343 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: agreed with him unanimously actually, So to be clear that 344 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: positive ruling was never guaranteed given the political climate of 345 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: the era, particularly in the South, you know, where Jim 346 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: Crow laws were still very much in effect, but it 347 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: helped that Marshall was so forceful and so clear when 348 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: exposing the hypocrisies of the current laws in court. So, 349 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: for example, there was one point during the Brown Arguments 350 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: when the Attorney General of Virginia complained that bringing the 351 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: case before the court was an assault by the NAACP 352 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: on the quote cherished heritage of segregation. 353 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: Wow. 354 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it gets even worse when you hear how 355 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 3: the Attorney General phrased all this. He said that the 356 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 3: NAACP was trying to quote, press this crown of thorns 357 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 3: upon our brow and hold the hemlock to our lips. 358 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: It's just so bizarre, which I guess is a dual reference, 359 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: likening the fall of segregation to both the crucifixion of 360 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 3: Christ and the death of Socrates. I'm not really interesting, 361 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: but just like you said, it is definitely messy and weird. Yeah, 362 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 3: and you know you'll actually like Marshall's response to this. 363 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: So he told the court, you have heard references to 364 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: one state's greatest and most cherished heritage, and when you 365 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 3: look for it, you find that greatest and most cherished 366 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 3: heritage is to segregate colored people. 367 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just signing to me that they voted 368 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: unanimously right with him. It's crazy. But I do want 369 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: to go back to something you mentioned a little earlier. 370 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: You said, Marshall became the Solicitor General in the. 371 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 3: Sixties, right, Yeah, So Marshall actually received a couple of 372 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 3: presidential appointments before finally being called up to the Supreme Court. 373 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: He left the NAACP in the early sixties, and this 374 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 3: was to serve on the US Court of Appeals and 375 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: that was after being nominated by President Kennedy, and then 376 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 3: four years later Kennedy's successor, Linda Johnson, he appointed Marshall 377 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 3: the first black solicitor General in US history, which. 378 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: Is obviously important historically, but I feel like I'd appreciate 379 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more if I actually knew what a 380 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: solicitor general did. 381 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: You don't think about this every day. That's fair. 382 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 3: Well, so, the solicitor General is, as you might expect, 383 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 3: a legal post, and it's basically the attorney who goes 384 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 3: before the Supreme Court to argue cases on behalf of 385 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: the federal government. So a lot like what he had 386 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 3: done for twenty years with the NAACP, but now with 387 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 3: the federal government as his client. 388 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: So I get what he does now. Was he still 389 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: sticking to arguing civil rights cases once he started working 390 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: for the government or did that all change? 391 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: No, he definitely was. 392 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: And it was during this time on the Court of 393 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 3: Appeals that Marshall issued over one hundred decisions on civil 394 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 3: rights battles as well as other hot button issues like 395 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: women's rights, police brutality, and amazingly, none of these hundred 396 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 3: plus decisions were overturned by the Supreme Court and had 397 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 3: a similarly strong record during his two years as Solicitor 398 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: General two So he argued nineteen cases before the Supreme 399 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: Court during that stint, and one fourteen of those. 400 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: That is really impressive. 401 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. 402 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 3: And with a track record like that, it wasn't long 403 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 3: before President Johnson decided that Marshall belonged on the Supreme Court. 404 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 3: So there were a couple of wrenches in his plan, though, 405 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 3: and chief among them was that there wasn't actually a 406 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: vacancy to appoint him to. 407 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: So I'm guessing Johnson might have played a little dirty 408 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: and engineered something for him, right, I. 409 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: Need some say that he did, Yeah, I mean. 410 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 3: The story goes that Johnson decided to engineer a vacancy 411 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: himself by creating a conflict of interest for one of 412 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 3: the sitting justices, and this was a fellow Democrat named 413 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: Tom Clark. So apparently President Johnson appointed Clark's son as 414 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 3: Attorney General, which prompted his father to step down, so 415 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 3: it wouldn't look like nepotism. So it's up for debate 416 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: whether this was done to open the seat to Marshall specifically, 417 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 3: but he is definitely the one who filled it. And 418 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: there is evidence that Johnson and Marshall liked each other 419 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: and got along pretty well. So according to biographer Jan Williams, 420 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: the two men loved to drink bourbon and tell stories full. 421 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: Of lies and watch soap operas. 422 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: Maybe so, But even with Johnson on his side, it's 423 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 3: not like Marshall's appointment to the Supreme Court was a 424 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 3: cake wall. 425 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. There was a backlash to trying to 426 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: get a black person on the Supreme Court, right. 427 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: Pretty shocking, I know. But all right, well, let's take 428 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 3: a quick break and then get back into this. 429 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, so third good. Marshall was sworn into the 430 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: Supreme Court in October of nineteen sixty seven, But that 431 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: was only after what it sounds like was this pretty 432 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: grueling confirmation process. It took place over the course of 433 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: a week that summer, and from what I read, Marshall 434 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: underwent more hours of questioning than any Supreme Court nominee 435 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: before him. 436 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this was largely because a handful of senators 437 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 3: from Southern States really did their best to torpedo his nomination. 438 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: To the history of the region has left many of 439 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 3: these old guard senators with, you know, an axe to 440 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: grind and shutting down. The first potential black SCOTUS member 441 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 3: definitely fit the bill. So, for instance, Mississippi senator at 442 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 3: the time was a guy named James Eastland, and according 443 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 3: to The Atlantic, Eastland was quote a notorious racist whose 444 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 3: father had famously lynched black people. He himself owned a 445 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: plantation that employed more than one hundred black sharecroppers, and 446 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 3: his daughter had been crowned Missed Confederacy nineteen fifty six. 447 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 3: That's a little clue there. Anyway, he was the head 448 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 3: of the committee for Marshall's nomination. 449 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 2: It was like a little uphill battle. 450 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you read a LinkedIn profile like that 451 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: and it feels like a miracle that Marshall got through, right. 452 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 3: I Mean, he wasn't the only one there with you know, 453 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: you might consider questionable views on race. So Senators from 454 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: Thurman was also on the committee. It's amazing how long 455 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 3: this guy was in office. And his main contribution was 456 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: to subject Marshall to what basically amounted to a Jim 457 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 3: Crow a literacy test. He cross examined Marshall, quizzing him 458 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: on all these obscure, ridiculously specific portions of political history. 459 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 3: So for instance, one question he asked him was to 460 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 3: name all the members of the Congressional Committee that had 461 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 3: reviewed the fourteenth. 462 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 2: Amendment in eighteen sixty six. 463 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 3: Of course he couldn't answer this, But there's one thing 464 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: nobody could. A little later in the preceding Ted Kennedy 465 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: astrom thurnament, if he could name the committee members from 466 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 3: eighteen sixty six and guess what you couldn't. 467 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 2: No, of course he couldn't. 468 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 3: And there was no reason why a Supreme Court justice 469 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 3: would need to rattle off random information like that. So 470 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 3: these Southern senators were drilling Marshall because of the color 471 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 3: of his skin and because of what he represented, not 472 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: because they had any real serious doubts about his legal 473 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 3: knowledge or his ability to serve in this position, and 474 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 3: because the case against Marshall was so flimsy. The Judiciary 475 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: Committee ultimately approved his nomination with a resounding eleven to 476 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 3: five vote, and then the Senate confirmed him with an 477 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 3: equally definitive vote of sixty nine to eleven, which honestly 478 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 3: is a little surprising when you look back. 479 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's impressive, but it does feel like 480 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: there are a significant amount of Senators who didn't vote 481 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: on it, right, Like, that's only like eighty people who 482 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: voted on his nominations quick mask. Well. 483 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: In the end, President Johnson knew he could never get 484 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 3: the votes of the Southern Democratic senators who opposed Marshall, 485 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 3: so rather than trying to sway the unswayable, he instead 486 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 3: focused on getting them to abstain from voting altogether, rather 487 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 3: than casting a vote against Marshall. And the lobbying seemed 488 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 3: to work, as you can tell from these numbers. But 489 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: I do think it's worth noting that even if all 490 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: twenty of those abstentions had voted no on Marshall, he 491 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: still would have had more than enough yeses to get confirmed. 492 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and after the harassment and committee, it must have 493 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: been nice to have that kind of validation, right, Like, 494 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: that's a pretty resounding vote in Marshall's favor. 495 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. 496 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 3: I mean the hearing had been this speed bump in 497 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 3: one ended up being a pretty smooth next few years 498 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 3: for Marshall. He joined a very liberal Supreme Court, which 499 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 3: obviously lined up very well with Marshall's own political views. 500 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: So I am curious about this, Like, what would you 501 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: say those views were? Broadly speaking? Like his job was 502 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: obviously to interpret the Constitution. So what was his take 503 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: on it? 504 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: I mean, it's hard to say definitively, but from what 505 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 3: I've read about his rulings and from people who work 506 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: closely with him, it sounds like Marshall largely viewed the 507 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: Constitution as a means of promoting a kind of equality 508 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: under the law, especially following the Civil War and the 509 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 3: addition of certain amendments. And I think that viewpoint is 510 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: certainly reflected in the changes to the constitutional law that 511 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 3: he had advocated for during all his years as both 512 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 3: an attorney and then later as a judge. And he 513 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 3: was trying to make the law align more closely with 514 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 3: the goal of legal equality under the law that he 515 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 3: saw represented in the Constitution. And actually, I have a 516 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: quote here that's a good example of the kind of 517 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: alignment I'm talking about. This is something Marshall said in 518 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight, which is just a few years before 519 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 3: his retirement. In ninety one, he said, quote, a child 520 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: born to a black mother in a state like Mississippi 521 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 3: has exactly the same rights as a white baby be 522 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 3: born to the wealthiest person in the United States. It's 523 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 3: not true, but I challenge anyone to say it's not 524 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 3: a goal worth working. 525 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: For, which is obviously like a powerful way to think 526 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: about it. And it's interesting to think about how people 527 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: interpret Marshall's philosophy. It's kind of this do what you 528 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: think is right and let the law catch up idea. 529 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: And on one hand that puts them in the category 530 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: of activist judges, which some politicians kind of rail against today, 531 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: and on the other hand it sort of lets the 532 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: laws guide the country to a more equitable world. But 533 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: I was thinking a lot about this week how Marshall 534 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: played a pretty unique role in the civil rights movement 535 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: in that regard, Like you think about Martin Luther King 536 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: Junior and Malcolm X and how they sort of share 537 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: the spotlight when people think about the most influential figures 538 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: of that era, and they each tried their own different 539 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: courses of action, right like King was more this I 540 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: have a dream, big unity, big movement, and Malcolm was 541 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: more by any means necessary. But in the background you've 542 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: got Thurgerd. Marshall plugging away with a third course of action, 543 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: not to change society directly, but to actually change the 544 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: laws that dictate the kind of society we live in. 545 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 3: It actually came across an obituary from Marshall that that said, 546 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 3: we make movies about Malcolm X. We get a holiday 547 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: to honor doctor Martin Luther King, But every day we 548 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 3: live the legacy of Justice Thurgood Marshall. Which isn't to 549 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 3: say that we don't live the legacy of the other 550 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: guys too, But legal precedent can sometimes hold more sway 551 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 3: in the long term than a speech or a march. 552 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 3: So I do think we owe a special kind of 553 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 3: debt to Marshall for, you know, sort of covering the 554 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 3: bases on that end. 555 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 2: So why do you. 556 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: Think Marshall doesn't seem to get as much attention these 557 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: days as other civil rights icons. Is it just that 558 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: like courtroom dramas are seen as kind of stuffy or 559 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: dense or academic compared to like speeches and protests. 560 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, I actually think a lot 561 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 3: of it comes down to how Marshall's career went in 562 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: the years after he joined the Supreme Court. We mentioned 563 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: there had been a liberal majority when Marshall was confirmed 564 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: in the late nineteen sixties, but that changed drastically over 565 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 3: the course of the seventies and then into the eighties. 566 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 3: In fact, during Marshall's twenty four years on the court, 567 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 3: Republican presidents made eight consecutive appointments, which transformed the court 568 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 3: and filled every spot on the bench but his. So 569 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 3: that means that in the second half of his tenure, 570 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 3: Marshall was in the minority and found you know, his 571 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 3: opinions increasingly overruled. As you might imagine that there wasn't 572 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 3: an easy transition for somebody whose entire career was built 573 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 3: on his incredible penchant for winning. Marshall became more and 574 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 3: more isolated from the rest of the court, you know, 575 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 3: with his contributions mostly limited to these strongly worded descents 576 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: about his colleagues's rulings. 577 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 2: But he never gave up. 578 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 3: Actually, at one point even vowed to remain on the 579 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: court until he was one hundred and ten years old. 580 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: But in the end he became too ill to continue 581 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: serving and had to step down in nineteen ninety one. 582 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: So two years later Marshall passed away at the age 583 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: of eighty four. 584 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: Well, it's fascinating to hear how Marshall got stymied like 585 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: that after finally making it to the Supreme Court. But 586 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: I know his presence on the court alone still had 587 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: this like profound impact on the country and certainly on 588 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: the issues he spent his whole life fighting for. And 589 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure just having a black man seated on the 590 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: highest court in the land had to be life changing 591 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: for millions of people and something that must have influenced 592 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: so many kids and what they dreamed was possible. 593 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think even if you don't have that personal 594 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 3: connection with his service, there's still so much to admire 595 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 3: about Marshall's legacy. So his commitment to changing the system 596 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 3: from within and you know, being a voice for the 597 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 3: voiceless is something that should still resonate with all of us. 598 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 3: In fact, this is going to sound random, but did 599 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 3: you happen to come across the commencement address that he 600 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 3: gave at the University of Virginia. 601 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 2: No, I haven't read that all. 602 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 3: Right, Well, he gave it to the graduating class of 603 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight and it is worth tracking down. I 604 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: won't read all of it here, but there's this one 605 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: piece of advice that really stuck out to me, and 606 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 3: it just says, where you see wrong or inequality or injustice, 607 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 3: speak out, because this is your country. This is your democracy, 608 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 3: make it, protect it, pass it on. 609 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: I like that. 610 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: So what do you say we leave things there and 611 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: jump straight into the fact off, all. 612 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: Right, we'll here's something kind of random. 613 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 3: Remember how I mentioned that thirdgood Marshall graduated college with 614 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 3: the first president of Ghana earlier. So well, it turns 615 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 3: out that wasn't the only connection Marshall had with the 616 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 3: emerging nation. In the nineteen fifties, after Marshall made a 617 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: name for himself with the NAACP, the United Nations and 618 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 3: the United Kingdom asked him to help write the constitutions 619 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 3: of Ghana and Tanzania, which he of course did, and 620 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 3: in fact, both of those constitutions are still in use today. 621 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 2: That is wild. 622 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: But you know what made the UN and in the 623 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: UK think to ask Marshall for help. 624 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 3: Well, at the time, the regions had just won their 625 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 3: independence from European rules, so there was some international concern 626 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 3: about the minority white citizens of the new countries and 627 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: the fact that they might face oppression. And so the 628 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 3: UN and the UK figured that since Marshall had been 629 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 3: such an effective champion for minority rights in America, he 630 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: actually might be able to do the same for Ghana 631 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 3: and Tanzania. 632 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. 633 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: So here's when I was pretty shocked to learn not 634 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: only was Thurgood Marshall sworn into the Supreme Court by 635 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: a former clansman, it actually happened by Marshall's request. So 636 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: apparently Marshall saw it as a way to kind of 637 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: extend an Olive branch to the South and to the 638 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: Southern senators who had opposed his nomination. And weirdly enough, 639 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: the one time Alabama Clan member was this guy named Hugo. 640 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 2: Black. 641 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: He was also a Justice of the Supreme Court when 642 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: Marshall was appointed in nineteen sixty seven. So Black had 643 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: been appointed to the Court back in nineteen thirty seven, 644 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: and it was just a few weeks into his term 645 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: that his prior involvement with the Klan came to light. 646 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: So dozens of newspapers called for his resignation, but Black 647 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: stayed on on the court anyway, citing the fact that 648 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: he'd already cut ties with the clan I guess more 649 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: than a decade earlier, and that he had no intention 650 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: of ever joining up again. 651 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 3: So do you think Black ever really turned over a 652 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 3: new leaf or was he just distancing himself from the Klan, 653 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 3: you know, for political reasons. 654 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: It is tough to say for certain either way, but 655 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: the the truth is probably somewhere in between. If you 656 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: look at Black's track record on the court, it certainly 657 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: seems like he changed his mind. He was part of 658 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: that unanimous ruling that struck down in school segregation, and 659 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: he and Marshall actually became pretty chummy while serving together 660 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: until Black's retirement in nineteen seventy one. Of course, anyway 661 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: you look at it, a former klansman swearing in the 662 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: first black Supreme Court justice does say a lot about 663 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: the changing shape of race relations in America at the time, 664 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: and it was this really powerful message to send, and 665 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: Marshall didn't let that opportunity to. 666 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 3: Go to waste our One thing I don't think we've 667 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 3: mentioned yet is the nickname Marshall earned for himself during 668 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: his time working for the NAACP. He was known colloquially 669 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 3: as mister Civil Rights really creative. I want that teach 670 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 3: makes sense though, and his dedication to the cause certainly 671 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 3: made him deserving of this title. In fact, Marshall often 672 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 3: put his own life on the line while fighting for 673 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: these civil rights and it was in nineteen forty six 674 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 3: that he went to Tennessee to defend a group of 675 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: black men in a pretty racially charged case. Once the 676 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 3: trial was over, Marshall and his colleagues knew it was 677 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: in their best entries to get out of town as 678 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 3: fast as possible. Unfortunately, their concern was quickly validated because, 679 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: according to biographer will Haygood, Marshall's group was ambushed on 680 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: the road by locals and Marshall himself was arrested on 681 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 3: these false charges. Separate from this group, Marshall was then 682 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 3: placed in a black sheriff's car immediately driven off the 683 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,479 Speaker 3: main road, which, given the circumstances, was pretty omorous, and 684 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 3: to make the whole thing even more suspicious, Marshall's colleagues 685 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 3: were instructed not to follow and instead to continue driving 686 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 3: on their way to Nashville. Luckily, the group knew better. 687 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 3: They decided to tail the sheriff anyway, and at that 688 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 3: point the car quickly returned to the main road and 689 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 3: Marshall was released not long afterward. So, when recounting the 690 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 3: event years later, Marshall said he would have been lynched 691 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: then and there if not for his colleagues. 692 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: So that is horrifying. Here's one that's a little lighter. 693 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: According to Marshall's second wife, he was a super talented 694 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: home cook and he would often come home in the 695 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: evenings after a long day in the Supreme Court and 696 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: then just whip up these amazing meals for his wife 697 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: and two sons, using every single pot in the kitchen. 698 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: Apparently his specialty dish was chicken and Chitlin's. 699 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 3: I kind of want this third good Marshall cookbook. You 700 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 3: know me too, all right. Well, speaking of Marshall's second wife, 701 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 3: I've actually got a sweet one here about her. She 702 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 3: was a woman of Philippine descent. Her name was Cecilia Suyat, 703 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 3: and the way she and Marshall met was a bit 704 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 3: of a happy accident. Cecilia went to the unemployment office 705 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 3: in nineteen forty eight she was looking for work, and 706 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 3: because her skin was on the darker side, the clerk 707 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: assumed she was black and set her up with a 708 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 3: job as a stenographer for the NAACP's legal team. Cecilia 709 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 3: later said she was forever grateful for the clerk's mistaken assumption, 710 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: because not only did it open her eyes to the 711 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 3: race problem of America, It also introduced her to her 712 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: future husband. At first, though Cecilia wasn't sure she and 713 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 3: Marshall would make a good match, or at least not 714 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: a publicly accepted one. Although she had been born in Hawaii. 715 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 3: She worried that people would think Marshall was marrying a 716 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 3: foreigner and then it would have had a negative impact 717 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 3: on his budding career. But Marshall didn't want any of that. 718 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 3: When Cecilia raised this concern, Marshall told her plainly, I 719 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 3: don't care what people think. 720 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: I'm marrying you. And he did. 721 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: But Marshall and Cecilia tied the knot in nineteen fifty five, 722 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 3: had two sons together, John and Thurgood Junior, and remained 723 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 3: happily married until Marshall's passing in nineteen ninety three. Oh 724 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 3: and I'm happy to report Cecilia herself is still going 725 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: strong today at ninety years young. 726 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: I love that it's such a great story, and I 727 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: do think you deserve Today's trophy for it. That does 728 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: it for today's show. If you want to send us back, 729 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: so just say hello. We're at part time genius at 730 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. So from Gabe Tristan willem me, thank 731 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. 732 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: Part Time Genius is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 733 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 3: podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 734 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.