WEBVTT - Reimagining 1991: An Unheard Testimony 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.676 Pushkin Getting Even is produced by Pushkin Industries. Join Pushkin 0:00:25.756 --> 0:00:28.876 Plus and you'll hear all of our shows ads free 0:00:29.516 --> 0:00:34.596 and get access to exclusive bonus content. Subscribe now in 0:00:34.716 --> 0:00:46.916 Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin Dot fhim as a young 0:00:46.996 --> 0:00:50.436 woman in high school, I was on a bus one 0:00:50.516 --> 0:00:54.596 day and a group of guys from a high school 0:00:54.596 --> 0:00:57.036 called Resurrection, it was a Catholic high school, well on 0:00:57.076 --> 0:01:01.676 the bus and they started singing glory, glory, segregation. They're 0:01:01.716 --> 0:01:06.556 putting all the in word where the white men ought 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:09.796 to be. And there was another little girl sitting on 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:13.876 the bus, and that little girl was getting off the 0:01:14.116 --> 0:01:16.556 bus in the back of the bus. And this little 0:01:16.556 --> 0:01:20.636 girl must have been seven or eight years old. As 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:23.836 she got off the bus, a group of white boys 0:01:23.836 --> 0:01:26.756 took a big book, like a big biology or chemistry 0:01:26.796 --> 0:01:30.676 book and slammed the book into the little girl's face 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:32.996 and you could see blood. And she was upset and 0:01:33.036 --> 0:01:35.996 she was afraid, and you know, she ran off the 0:01:36.036 --> 0:01:40.396 bus and I, you know, I panicked. I didn't know 0:01:40.556 --> 0:01:42.796 what to do, and I thought I'm next, and I 0:01:42.796 --> 0:01:46.836 couldn't help the little girl. I was really almost paralyzed. 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:52.276 But I always felt guilty that I didn't do something 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:57.196 to help that little girl, although realistically there was really 0:01:57.196 --> 0:02:00.676 nothing that I could do, but I always felt in 0:02:00.716 --> 0:02:04.596 life whenever opportunities like that came up that I would 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:10.876 do the most that I could possibly do. That's Sakarie 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:14.996 Hardnet talking about growing up in New Orleans. To day, 0:02:15.196 --> 0:02:17.996 she's a civil rights lawyer outside of Washington, d C. 0:02:19.156 --> 0:02:21.436 I wanted to start with that story because it is 0:02:21.476 --> 0:02:25.876 at the center of what Hardnet does now. She defends 0:02:26.076 --> 0:02:31.916 and protects people. She is courageous. Since that day on 0:02:32.036 --> 0:02:35.396 the bus, she has made it her mission to speak 0:02:35.436 --> 0:02:39.996 out when she sees injustice, and one of the people 0:02:40.036 --> 0:02:45.916 she stepped up to defend was me. I'm Anita Hill. 0:02:46.596 --> 0:02:51.036 This is getting even my podcast about equality and what 0:02:51.156 --> 0:02:54.996 it takes to get there. On this show, I'm talking 0:02:54.996 --> 0:02:59.316 with trailblazers, people who are working on improving our imperfect 0:02:59.436 --> 0:03:05.196 world and finding solutions. In my first episode, I spoke 0:03:05.196 --> 0:03:09.716 with journalists and commentator Mark Lamont Hill about my on 0:03:09.876 --> 0:03:15.876 President Biden's historic announcement of a black female Supreme Court nominee. 0:03:16.876 --> 0:03:20.796 In this episode, you're going to hear about another historic 0:03:21.196 --> 0:03:25.596 Supreme Court nomination hearing, one that took place over thirty 0:03:25.676 --> 0:03:29.956 years ago, one in which the public heard my testimony 0:03:30.556 --> 0:03:35.156 and saw the aftermath. This changed the course of my 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:41.156 life forever. But in this episode, you're not going to 0:03:41.156 --> 0:03:45.476 hear about me. You're going to hear about Sakari Hardnett. 0:03:51.636 --> 0:03:55.756 In the mid nineteen eighties, Hartnett served as the assistant 0:03:55.796 --> 0:03:59.196 to the chairman of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a 0:03:59.316 --> 0:04:03.436 federal agency in charge of receiving and responding to complaints 0:04:03.436 --> 0:04:08.636 of job discrimination. Hardnet and I never crossed path, but 0:04:08.756 --> 0:04:14.196 we had a boss in common, Clarence Thomas. In nineteen 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:19.276 ninety one, Hardnett submitted a sworn affidavit to the Senate 0:04:19.316 --> 0:04:23.916 Judiciary Committee outlining Thomas's behavior that she had witnessed at 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:29.036 the EOC. I had held the same position prior to her. 0:04:29.596 --> 0:04:33.916 She recounted an environment where young black women were being 0:04:34.756 --> 0:04:42.916 inspected and auditioned as sexual objects by Thomas. She added, quote, 0:04:43.396 --> 0:04:46.876 women know when there are sexual dimensions to the attention 0:04:46.916 --> 0:04:51.156 they are receiving, and there was never any doubt about 0:04:51.196 --> 0:04:56.196 that dimension in Clarence Thomas's office. Hardnett was one of 0:04:56.236 --> 0:05:02.036 three witnesses the committee never called to testify, so I 0:05:02.236 --> 0:05:11.876 decided it was time to give her a call. Okay, 0:05:11.956 --> 0:05:17.796 it is recording, Zakari, Can you hear me? Yes? I can. Great. 0:05:18.716 --> 0:05:21.676 I am so glad to be having this conversation with you. 0:05:22.476 --> 0:05:26.636 I have always wanted not only for myself to hear 0:05:26.796 --> 0:05:29.876 what you had to say, but I want the world 0:05:30.436 --> 0:05:35.676 to hear your voice. And I am ever grateful that 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:41.236 you came forward. And I feel really fortunate to be 0:05:41.476 --> 0:05:45.676 able to provide this platform for you to speak today, 0:05:46.156 --> 0:05:50.956 even though it is thirty years late. Thank you very much. 0:05:52.556 --> 0:05:55.556 This episode is about the importance of the truth and 0:05:55.676 --> 0:06:00.396 the price people pay to talent. Hardnet's commitment to truth 0:06:00.436 --> 0:06:03.876 telling began well before she went to work at the EOC. 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:08.916 My interests in civil rights came from just growing up 0:06:08.916 --> 0:06:12.636 in New Orleans. I grew up in a very volatile 0:06:12.716 --> 0:06:17.516 period in New Orleans and being a black woman, and 0:06:17.876 --> 0:06:20.396 you know, my whole community was black, and I just 0:06:20.476 --> 0:06:24.276 wanted to see some equity there. So early on, I 0:06:24.316 --> 0:06:27.116 teamed up with my friends and we would just stage, 0:06:27.236 --> 0:06:30.316 you know, demonstrations. We'd go to theaters and try to integrate. 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:33.516 We go to lunch counters and we try to integrate. 0:06:34.076 --> 0:06:36.476 We'd ride the buses and sit in the front of 0:06:36.476 --> 0:06:40.596 the bus to try to integrate. And that really was 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:46.796 my lifelong experience. So working at the EOC must have 0:06:47.356 --> 0:06:52.116 been like reaching a high point in your career since 0:06:52.156 --> 0:06:57.156 you were interested in civil rights law. Well, actually it 0:06:57.236 --> 0:07:00.756 was very disappointing. When I got to the Commission. I 0:07:00.876 --> 0:07:04.796 worked in the office of reviewing Appeals, and we were 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:09.196 basically locked in our offices during the day, and we 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:13.876 were basically not given any training or any support on 0:07:13.916 --> 0:07:17.956 how to prepare or to do the appeals, and we 0:07:17.956 --> 0:07:23.316 were discouraged from deciding an appeal in favor of some 0:07:23.396 --> 0:07:27.316 of the people who filed appeals. So I just felt 0:07:27.356 --> 0:07:31.516 that it was dishonest. So I went to the Chairman's 0:07:31.556 --> 0:07:35.196 office to say thank you for hiring me, but I 0:07:35.276 --> 0:07:39.076 just can't do this job anymore. And at that time 0:07:39.076 --> 0:07:41.396 he says, oh, you don't have to leave, Why don't 0:07:41.396 --> 0:07:45.436 you come and work in my office. So I was poor. 0:07:45.476 --> 0:07:47.756 I didn't have any money, I didn't have any other 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:52.996 prospects and sights. So I decided to take him up 0:07:53.076 --> 0:07:58.196 on that offer, and I went to Clarence's office. Little 0:07:58.236 --> 0:08:01.956 did I know I was jumping from the skillet directly 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:09.236 into the fire oh, describe the environment in that office. 0:08:09.636 --> 0:08:13.516 He was like a fox in a henhouse. He would 0:08:13.636 --> 0:08:17.076 approach different females at the Commission. He would talk about 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:21.036 their bodies, he would talk about people that he was dating. 0:08:21.956 --> 0:08:26.516 He talked about things that I really wasn't particularly interested 0:08:26.556 --> 0:08:30.356 in discussing with him. And he felt that this is 0:08:30.436 --> 0:08:33.196 my personal feeling. He felt that all the black women 0:08:33.196 --> 0:08:35.396 at the Commission were really there at his beck and 0:08:35.476 --> 0:08:38.716 call to say whatever he wanted to say to them, 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:41.716 to attempt to do whatever he wanted to do, and 0:08:41.756 --> 0:08:45.316 that we would just we and they were just there 0:08:46.076 --> 0:08:49.996 to accept it and not to not to complain about it. 0:08:50.036 --> 0:08:53.916 And I must admit I never saw him interact that 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:56.516 way with any of the white females at the Commission. 0:08:57.716 --> 0:09:00.716 After a while, I saw, you know, how he interacted 0:09:00.756 --> 0:09:04.916 with me. And on many occasions, I would leave the 0:09:04.996 --> 0:09:08.676 office in the morning and try to not return, just 0:09:08.796 --> 0:09:11.436 to to stay away because I did not want to 0:09:11.476 --> 0:09:14.396 be in that office. And he would call around, you know, 0:09:14.476 --> 0:09:16.556 have people call around to find out where I was, 0:09:17.076 --> 0:09:19.356 for me to go to have coffee with him or 0:09:19.996 --> 0:09:23.356 to just chat with him. So I would try to 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:27.996 get involved in other activities at the Commission, and it 0:09:28.036 --> 0:09:31.116 got to the point where I just I did not 0:09:31.276 --> 0:09:35.556 want to be in that office anymore, and I asked 0:09:35.556 --> 0:09:38.196 to be transferred out of that office to the General 0:09:38.236 --> 0:09:41.676 Council's office at that time, and I was told by 0:09:41.796 --> 0:09:44.716 the woman who was executive secretary at that time that 0:09:44.796 --> 0:09:47.156 people did not ask to be transferred out of the 0:09:47.236 --> 0:09:50.396 Chairman's office, but I told him that, I guess you know, 0:09:50.436 --> 0:09:52.196 I'm an exception and I don't want to be in 0:09:52.236 --> 0:09:56.396 here anymore. Did you experience something similar to this in 0:09:56.596 --> 0:09:59.676 other professional roles that you had, or was this there's 0:09:59.716 --> 0:10:04.796 something unique about this office? Well. Being a black woman 0:10:04.836 --> 0:10:09.436 in America and a young woman in America, I mean, 0:10:09.476 --> 0:10:15.036 we're often times subjected to what's known now as sexual harassment, 0:10:15.636 --> 0:10:19.516 but it happens on different levels, and sometimes, you know, 0:10:19.556 --> 0:10:21.556 in order to survive, you just to try to shirk 0:10:21.596 --> 0:10:25.956 it off. But in this particular situation, because of the 0:10:25.996 --> 0:10:29.956 way that I felt about civil rights, because I knew 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:35.996 the importance of that position and the importance of that organization, 0:10:36.836 --> 0:10:41.356 it was really difficult for me to watch Clarence take 0:10:41.396 --> 0:10:45.036 it so cavalierly and the things that I thought were 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:48.836 important in terms of civil rights and what was happening 0:10:48.876 --> 0:10:53.076 in the nation and our progression as a people, our 0:10:53.076 --> 0:10:56.596 progression as women. I just did not see that happening 0:10:57.156 --> 0:11:02.916 at the Commission at that time. Do you remember when 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:06.516 you first found out that Thomas was being considered for 0:11:06.676 --> 0:11:12.516 the Supreme Court? Yeah? I do. When Clarence was nominated 0:11:12.556 --> 0:11:17.236 for that position, I was literally shocked because I knew him, 0:11:17.276 --> 0:11:19.996 I knew what he did at the Commission, and I 0:11:20.036 --> 0:11:25.956 could not believe that somebody like Clarence would be considered 0:11:25.996 --> 0:11:30.876 for such an important position. And really, I don't understand 0:11:31.396 --> 0:11:34.236 why I was so naive at that time, because that 0:11:34.436 --> 0:11:37.756 same body as the body that you know of help 0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:42.596 Plessy versus Ferguson, the same body that said that, you know, 0:11:42.676 --> 0:11:45.676 we were not entitled to certain rights as human beings, 0:11:45.676 --> 0:11:50.996 as full human beings. So I remember talking to different 0:11:50.996 --> 0:11:54.636 people and eventually talking to the dean of my law school, 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:59.156 Edgar Khan, and meeting with Edgar, and you know, saying 0:11:59.156 --> 0:12:01.596 to him, Edgar, something's got to be done about this, 0:12:02.916 --> 0:12:09.516 and really thinking what could be done, because it liked 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:12.076 it was already etched in stone that that's what was 0:12:12.116 --> 0:12:15.116 going to take place. He would be nominated right the 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:18.316 president said he was the best qualified man for the job. 0:12:19.676 --> 0:12:22.756 You had already left the EOC by then, that's correct. 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:26.636 He had left the EOC to sit on the Court 0:12:26.676 --> 0:12:31.716 of Appeals in Washington, DC, which is considered to be 0:12:32.076 --> 0:12:36.636 one of the entry points to a Supreme Court nomination 0:12:36.756 --> 0:12:41.196 sitting in a DC Court of Appeals. So, given all 0:12:41.196 --> 0:12:45.956 of that that you knew, what did you expect to happen? 0:12:46.316 --> 0:12:48.676 How did you expect that the confirmation hearing was going 0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:52.676 to play out? Well, you know, I had no idea. 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:57.196 I had no idea. Eventually I began to hear your name, 0:12:58.116 --> 0:13:00.276 you know, I began to hear more about you and 0:13:00.996 --> 0:13:04.716 what was taking place, and I sort of witnessed what 0:13:05.076 --> 0:13:09.516 you were going through with the confirmation hearings, and as 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:12.356 a result of that, you know, I really became alarmed 0:13:12.596 --> 0:13:16.276 and got in touch with again with my professor Edgar Khan, 0:13:16.396 --> 0:13:19.036 and told him that I felt that I had to 0:13:19.076 --> 0:13:22.276 do something, or that we needed to organize a group 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:25.476 of people to get together to do something to support you. 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:29.676 But what we decided to do was to attempt to 0:13:29.716 --> 0:13:33.276 give some credence to what you were saying and to 0:13:33.396 --> 0:13:38.276 let people know that it was not unusual for Clarence 0:13:38.316 --> 0:13:41.116 to act that way with people, and especially black women 0:13:41.156 --> 0:13:46.596 at the Commission. Like I said before, he was like 0:13:46.636 --> 0:13:50.436 a fox in a henhouse, And I wanted to make 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:54.716 the committee aware of the fact that you were not 0:13:54.916 --> 0:13:58.356 lying to them or making up statements, that this, in 0:13:58.476 --> 0:14:02.756 fact is what was happening at the EOC and that 0:14:02.876 --> 0:14:06.556 you had witnessed it, and that yeah, that I've witnessed 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:11.556 it firsthand. When we come back, Hardnett and I will 0:14:11.556 --> 0:14:14.316 get into the details of how her statement was handled 0:14:15.036 --> 0:14:27.556 or mishandled. You're listening to getting even my podcast about 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:32.916 equality and what it takes to get there. I'm Anita 0:14:32.996 --> 0:14:38.676 Help and I'm talking with Sukari Hardnett. She submitted a 0:14:38.756 --> 0:14:43.756 statement to the Senate Judiciary Committee in nineteen ninety one 0:14:44.356 --> 0:14:49.076 outlining Clarence Thomas's behavior that she witnessed while working at 0:14:49.076 --> 0:14:54.396 the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, but she was never given 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:58.636 an opportunity to testify. So it's out of your hands. 0:14:58.756 --> 0:15:02.316 Now you've written your statement. What did you expect to 0:15:02.356 --> 0:15:06.596 happen with the statement? What would you have liked to 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:10.796 have happened even well, would I would like to have 0:15:10.916 --> 0:15:18.316 had the opportunity to testify before the committee to let 0:15:18.316 --> 0:15:23.556 them know that what he was saying was absolutely true, 0:15:24.036 --> 0:15:28.236 that your experiences had been my experiences. At the commission, 0:15:29.476 --> 0:15:34.956 Clarence was not the best qualified person for that position. 0:15:35.636 --> 0:15:38.036 There were many many I mean, if they wanted to 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:41.636 have a black person in that position, there were many, many, 0:15:41.676 --> 0:15:46.356 many black men and women who were far more qualified 0:15:46.676 --> 0:15:52.596 than Clarence and somebody who was suitable to step into 0:15:52.636 --> 0:15:57.636 the quote unquote seat that was held by Thurgood Marshall. 0:15:58.996 --> 0:16:03.476 I was fearful actually that if he got into into 0:16:03.516 --> 0:16:08.156 that position, considering conversations that I've had with him, that 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:11.396 he would do exactly what he has done through the years. 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:16.636 Do you know what actually happened to the statement after 0:16:16.716 --> 0:16:20.196 you handed it over, Well, I knew that it reached 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:23.396 the Senate Judiciary Committee because they said that, you know, 0:16:23.436 --> 0:16:26.596 another woman has come out. So I knew that the 0:16:26.596 --> 0:16:29.756 committee had the statement, and I knew that there was 0:16:29.756 --> 0:16:34.476 a possibility that they would call me, and I was prepared. 0:16:35.356 --> 0:16:37.676 I felt that I was prepared at that time to 0:16:37.716 --> 0:16:42.916 answer whatever questions they might have had. Probably not as 0:16:43.076 --> 0:16:47.756 artfully and skillfully and with such poise as you did, 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:51.996 but definitely. I felt that I could give them whatever 0:16:52.076 --> 0:16:55.756 information they wanted to support your position. So what if 0:16:55.796 --> 0:17:00.476 any communications did you have with the Senate Judiciary Committee, 0:17:01.676 --> 0:17:07.556 None with the staffers or none? Though you were not 0:17:07.716 --> 0:17:13.276 told anything about your statement per se until you were 0:17:14.316 --> 0:17:18.556 told that you were not going to be testifying. No, 0:17:18.636 --> 0:17:22.796 I was never told that I would not be testifying. Oh. No, 0:17:22.836 --> 0:17:27.436 one from the committee, not the staff members on the committee, 0:17:27.996 --> 0:17:30.556 ever got in touch with me. I mean, the most 0:17:30.596 --> 0:17:35.076 I heard was what I saw on television, And after 0:17:35.076 --> 0:17:38.356 a while I stopped looking at the proceedings because I 0:17:38.396 --> 0:17:42.836 thought it was just a sham. And as a black woman, 0:17:43.396 --> 0:17:45.916 it was very difficult for me to sit down and 0:17:45.996 --> 0:17:50.116 see what they were trying to do to you. But 0:17:50.316 --> 0:17:54.116 I think because of your poise, and I think I 0:17:54.156 --> 0:17:57.996 saw your family there, because of your family support and 0:17:58.476 --> 0:18:06.596 just an inner calmness that you seem to have, I 0:18:06.636 --> 0:18:11.676 think carried you through and prevented them from succeeding. Were 0:18:11.676 --> 0:18:15.356 you still watching the hearings when Biden bang down the 0:18:15.756 --> 0:18:21.356 gavel and closed them out. No. At that point I 0:18:21.556 --> 0:18:24.636 knew what the writing on the wall was. I mean, 0:18:24.676 --> 0:18:27.876 I knew that they were going to confirm Thomas and 0:18:28.156 --> 0:18:30.276 you know that was my fear, and they did. And 0:18:30.396 --> 0:18:34.236 look where we are now, look at the composition of 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:37.276 the court. Like I said, I was very naive then, 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:40.836 and I thought that, you know, only certain learned people 0:18:40.876 --> 0:18:45.316 who had a sense of justice and righteousness should hold 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:49.076 those positions. But I have subsequently learned that that is 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:52.676 not the case. And the sad thing about that is 0:18:52.756 --> 0:18:56.796 that I'm not the only one who has noticed that 0:18:57.436 --> 0:19:01.756 that these are the things that erode at our democratic system. 0:19:02.436 --> 0:19:05.836 You know, our system is based upon us agreeing to 0:19:05.996 --> 0:19:09.516 believe in certain things and to live by certain rules. 0:19:10.356 --> 0:19:15.276 And when those rules are broken down, when people are 0:19:15.316 --> 0:19:18.076 put in a position where they don't trust that the 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:21.236 system will work the way that they've been told it's 0:19:21.316 --> 0:19:24.156 going to work or it should work, then that's when 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:28.436 you start to have problems. And I think the thing 0:19:28.516 --> 0:19:31.236 that has made America the country that it is is 0:19:31.276 --> 0:19:33.756 not so much because it was so righteous from the beginning, 0:19:34.356 --> 0:19:37.316 but because we have struggled as a nation to get 0:19:37.436 --> 0:19:40.956 to the point where we try to become a more 0:19:41.036 --> 0:19:48.876 perfect union. So ultimately, your statement was put into the record, 0:19:49.556 --> 0:19:52.476 which is of course not the same as being asked 0:19:52.556 --> 0:19:57.076 to testify, not being allowed to testify. I guess let 0:19:57.076 --> 0:19:58.956 me ask it. Let me just ask it. Why do 0:19:58.996 --> 0:20:02.316 you think the Senate Judiciary Committee didn't either subpoena you 0:20:02.756 --> 0:20:07.636 or call you to testify. You know, I have no idea. 0:20:07.876 --> 0:20:13.476 I think pretty much it was decided that Clarence would 0:20:13.556 --> 0:20:17.156 be placed in that position. I don't know if the 0:20:17.196 --> 0:20:20.916 Democratic white males on the committee felt that their hands 0:20:20.956 --> 0:20:24.676 were sort of tied and they were attacking a black man. 0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:27.916 Clarence used all of the language. I mean, I could 0:20:27.916 --> 0:20:31.836 not believe a high tech lynching, I thought to myself, 0:20:31.956 --> 0:20:35.236 or a high tech tom But at any rate, it's 0:20:35.276 --> 0:20:38.716 almost like they were afraid or intimidated and just sort 0:20:38.716 --> 0:20:44.156 of sugarcoated everything when it came to Clarence Thomas, and 0:20:44.996 --> 0:20:47.916 it was very difficult for me to look at it 0:20:47.956 --> 0:20:53.276 then and then almost thirty years later, I couldn't watch 0:20:53.436 --> 0:20:58.396 the Kavanaugh hearings because it was reliving to me. The 0:20:58.396 --> 0:21:03.836 whole situation with the Thomas hearing and Miss Ford's testimony 0:21:04.196 --> 0:21:09.236 was as compelling as your testimony was. You know, I 0:21:09.276 --> 0:21:11.756 have been welcoming the chance to talk with you and 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:14.636 to hear from you, and for the people who would 0:21:14.636 --> 0:21:17.756 have wanted to hear from you thirty years ago. Can 0:21:17.876 --> 0:21:21.116 hear what you had to say. I think one of 0:21:21.116 --> 0:21:28.036 the greatest disservices of the nineteen ninety one hearing was 0:21:29.236 --> 0:21:35.396 the failure to call you to testify. I think it 0:21:35.676 --> 0:21:43.796 was done as a way to slight and dismiss the 0:21:43.956 --> 0:21:49.636 value of the voices of black women. It was a 0:21:49.676 --> 0:21:54.836 way to avoid hearing the truth that the committee may 0:21:54.916 --> 0:21:57.556 or may not have been willing to deal with as 0:21:57.596 --> 0:22:06.716 the truth. I think it was disrespectful, and I just 0:22:06.796 --> 0:22:15.556 wanted to be a part of revealing that our truths 0:22:15.756 --> 0:22:20.396 have merit and they should be listened to and taken 0:22:20.436 --> 0:22:23.956 into account in the way the world is shaped. When 0:22:23.956 --> 0:22:27.716 we talk about fairness and equality, we can't have it 0:22:28.156 --> 0:22:33.276 unless we are listening to the people who have suffered 0:22:33.916 --> 0:22:40.516 from inequality. And so in part, we're asking what if? 0:22:41.396 --> 0:22:44.316 And a big part of the what if is what 0:22:44.516 --> 0:22:50.036 if all of the information that was available in nineteen 0:22:50.156 --> 0:22:54.436 ninety one, that information that you provided, that the other 0:22:54.916 --> 0:22:59.676 witnesses have provided, that some of the experts had developed 0:22:59.716 --> 0:23:04.636 and were ready to testify to what if that had 0:23:04.716 --> 0:23:11.356 been made public? Do you think that the public conversation 0:23:12.236 --> 0:23:15.396 might be different today because you've talked about where we 0:23:15.436 --> 0:23:20.636 are today, and you talked about Christine Bozzie Ford in 0:23:20.956 --> 0:23:28.356 twenty eighteen. Could that hearing have been different had the 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:35.156 nineteen ninety one hearing been different? You know, Anita, I 0:23:35.196 --> 0:23:40.756 don't know. But what I do know is that you 0:23:40.916 --> 0:23:47.076 give people information and you let them decide. You don't 0:23:47.116 --> 0:23:52.516 withhold information and then say, well, look at the conclusion 0:23:52.716 --> 0:23:56.676 that they came to. And we as a nation were 0:23:56.756 --> 0:24:01.476 denied that opportunity to hear all the facts, to weigh 0:24:01.476 --> 0:24:05.916 the facts, and to come to the conclusion, whatever conclusion 0:24:05.996 --> 0:24:11.516 we chose to come to now and the Kavanaugh hearings, 0:24:11.556 --> 0:24:15.356 they were given the facts, and I think we have 0:24:15.436 --> 0:24:19.636 a responsibility to give people the facts, to give them 0:24:19.676 --> 0:24:22.116 the truth, and not make believe facts the things that 0:24:22.156 --> 0:24:25.836 we make up, but to give them the truth and 0:24:25.876 --> 0:24:29.196 then they can decide. And if they take the facts 0:24:29.196 --> 0:24:33.076 and they misuse them, then it's on them. If they 0:24:33.116 --> 0:24:35.956 take the facts and they cover them up and they 0:24:36.076 --> 0:24:39.636 hide it, then it's on them. But we have a 0:24:39.716 --> 0:24:43.756 responsibility to give people the facts and to give them 0:24:43.796 --> 0:24:48.276 true facts and let them decide at that point what 0:24:48.396 --> 0:24:53.396 to do with those facts. In retrospect. Given the way 0:24:53.436 --> 0:24:58.756 the things played out with your statement, would you do 0:24:58.796 --> 0:25:04.996 it differently today? Without question, I would do the same thing. 0:25:05.996 --> 0:25:13.116 I have no reservations, no doubts, not one. I would 0:25:13.156 --> 0:25:18.716 do the same thing because what you said and what 0:25:18.796 --> 0:25:23.236 you did was the truth, and I wanted to support 0:25:23.276 --> 0:25:28.236 the truth. And I think even more so in this 0:25:28.316 --> 0:25:31.876 period in our country, we understand how important it is 0:25:31.916 --> 0:25:36.556 to have the facts and to have true facts, and 0:25:36.996 --> 0:25:38.756 so I would do it. I would do the exact 0:25:38.796 --> 0:25:41.796 same thing all over again. Do you think that there 0:25:41.796 --> 0:25:46.156 are other people who were intimidated I'm coming forward by 0:25:46.236 --> 0:25:51.236 the behavior of the committee. Well, I think afterwards I 0:25:51.356 --> 0:25:54.876 talked to people. I remember one friend said to me 0:25:55.036 --> 0:25:59.036 that another friend had called and said about me. What 0:25:59.276 --> 0:26:01.916 was she thinking? Why would she do something like that? 0:26:02.596 --> 0:26:06.436 It never occurred to me that the consequences would be 0:26:07.036 --> 0:26:10.556 what they have. Then. I have not been able to 0:26:10.596 --> 0:26:14.076 basically get a job with an organization, with a law firm. 0:26:14.796 --> 0:26:17.756 I went into private practice because that was the only 0:26:17.756 --> 0:26:22.236 option that I had. I've been, you know, pretty much blacklisted. 0:26:22.916 --> 0:26:25.596 Not that there was a concerted effort to blacklist me, 0:26:25.756 --> 0:26:30.396 but if anybody knew that I'd testified or given support 0:26:30.676 --> 0:26:34.916 to you, they basically did not want to have my 0:26:35.036 --> 0:26:41.156 name on their letterhead. Has the experience that you had 0:26:41.276 --> 0:26:47.116 in nineteen ninety one shaped how you think about fighting 0:26:47.156 --> 0:26:52.636 for justice and truth for the people that you represent. Definitely. 0:26:52.756 --> 0:26:54.916 You know, there's a saying that was used on the 0:26:54.956 --> 0:26:57.796 continent for many, many years, and I believe in that 0:26:57.836 --> 0:27:01.796 the struggle continues, and it's just made me even more 0:27:02.036 --> 0:27:07.276 determined to struggle and to support just causes that I 0:27:07.356 --> 0:27:10.356 believe in that will be my fight for the rest 0:27:10.356 --> 0:27:16.276 of my life. It has not curtailed my determination, it 0:27:16.356 --> 0:27:19.676 has not hindered it in any way. It's really just 0:27:19.796 --> 0:27:23.796 made me even more determined to continue to do what 0:27:23.876 --> 0:27:28.556 I do, to fight for what I believe in and 0:27:28.716 --> 0:27:33.076 what I know is the right thing to do. The 0:27:33.196 --> 0:27:36.476 way the senators and the media handled the hearing didn't 0:27:36.516 --> 0:27:40.476 just impact hardnet in me, and it wasn't just that 0:27:40.596 --> 0:27:44.916 they failed to call her to testify. All of it 0:27:44.956 --> 0:27:48.916 had a ripple effect on millions of people who were 0:27:48.996 --> 0:27:54.156 watching at home, some of them deciding for themselves if 0:27:54.196 --> 0:27:57.716 they would speak up about sexual harassment that they had 0:27:57.756 --> 0:28:04.036 experienced or witness I've received thousands of letters. I still 0:28:04.036 --> 0:28:07.996 received letters from people telling me about sexual harassment that 0:28:08.076 --> 0:28:12.276 has altered their life, and I can't help wondering why 0:28:12.436 --> 0:28:16.036 they still have to pay such a high price for 0:28:16.156 --> 0:28:20.956 telling the truth, for doing the right thing. So the 0:28:21.036 --> 0:28:25.396 struggle does continue, Yes it does. I do have one question, 0:28:25.436 --> 0:28:31.396 in particular, why did you name your program Getting Even Well? 0:28:31.396 --> 0:28:35.436 Because I think what we have talked about for many 0:28:35.556 --> 0:28:41.676 years is opportunity, and what we're looking for is outcomes. 0:28:41.876 --> 0:28:46.836 We want results. I wanted us to think about equality 0:28:46.956 --> 0:28:51.316 and equity in a new way, not just in terms 0:28:51.356 --> 0:28:57.436 of opportunity, but also in terms of outcomes, measurable outcomes 0:28:57.436 --> 0:29:01.676 in the way that people live every day. So that's 0:29:01.676 --> 0:29:06.636 why it's Getting Even I think that's my only question. 0:29:06.676 --> 0:29:09.556 I just I just want to say that I hope 0:29:09.556 --> 0:29:14.276 you continue on the path that you have chosen, and 0:29:15.196 --> 0:29:19.276 if at any point I can be of any assistance, 0:29:19.676 --> 0:29:22.876 please let me know. But I'm very proud of you, 0:29:23.156 --> 0:29:30.636 and you've made a tremendous sacrifice, tremendous sacrifice, and I'm 0:29:30.716 --> 0:29:34.356 glad that you did. And if you're ever in Washington, 0:29:34.956 --> 0:29:39.476 we should have lunch. Yes, we'll find a place close 0:29:39.516 --> 0:29:46.116 to the Supreme Court. Okay, sit down and have lunch together. Okay, 0:29:46.516 --> 0:30:00.476 take care. Thank you. I will always be grateful to 0:30:00.556 --> 0:30:04.516 Sakari Hartnet for taking an enormous risk to help me. 0:30:05.516 --> 0:30:08.356 We will never know the price she paid for simply 0:30:08.396 --> 0:30:13.036