WEBVTT - Making a Board Game - Mondo's The Thing 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:12.360 Text technology with tech Stuff from stuff works dot Com. 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.040 Hey there, and welcome to tex Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.799 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer here at how Stuff Works, 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:20.959 and you guys know me. You know what I do 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.119 for a living talk about technology. I'm the best of 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.920 what I do, and what I do isn't pretty. I can't. 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.200 I can't back up either of those things. I want 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:32.839 to take a little departure from the way we normally 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:35.200 do text stuff. I've got an interview that I'm gonna 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.040 insert into this episode, and today I'm going to talk 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.120 about the process of making a board game. Now, I 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.360 know that's kind of a step away from what I 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.520 normally do, but but stick with me. I promise you that, 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.640 at least to me, it's really interesting and I hope 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.320 it will be for you as well. Later on this episode, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:53.240 i'll have that interview. It's gonna be with a couple 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.000 of folks from Mondo. That's a company that has done 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.600 a lot of pop culture merchandizing, posters, artwork, and all albums, 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.880 whole bunch of different stuff. But they've also recently published 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.520 a board game that's based off a true classic. In 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.160 my mind, it is John Carpenter's remake of The Thing 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:16.679 spoiler alert. I am a big fan of that film. Now. 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.160 I know some of you are thinking board games are 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.080 more than a little bit of a reach for tech stuff, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.720 but I argue that it still counts. It may, in 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.280 your mind, stretch the meaning of technology a little bit, 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.120 as most board games require very little in the form 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.360 of tech. If we're being really strict with the definition 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.840 of technology, however, then I would say that board games 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:42.240 totally count because what technology is is the practical application 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.600 of knowledge in a particular area. Practical application of knowledge. 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.520 Technology is the embodiment of the things we learned. So 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.200 when you look at technology, it is proof that science works. Right, 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.880 that we understand that science and engineering these are are 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.720 scientific disp lens that then can have this practical application 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.160 and technology. If science didn't work, our technology wouldn't work. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:08.440 And I guess this is where we insert lots of 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:10.560 jokes about Blue Screen of Death, but you get what 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.520 I'm saying, Like, if we didn't have science under a 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.440 good understanding, then there's no way we would have all 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.360 the stuff that we've got, the stuff what beeps, and 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.720 I certainly wouldn't have a show. Now I argue that 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:26.200 a board game represents that it is a practical application 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:30.480 of our understanding of human psychology and also of game theory, 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.919 and at least in some types of games, the relationship 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:38.960 between strategic decision making and random events. Now, first we 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.600 have to acknowledge that not all board games are equal. Right. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.560 Some games rely way more heavily upon strategy than other 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.280 types of games. Chess, for example, is a strategic game. 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.320 There are no elements of random chance in chess. All 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.640 moves are stemming from player decisions. All the pieces have 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.360 very specific ways they hand and cannot move, and how 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.360 they can take other pieces. And while one player cannot 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.839 predict the moves made by his or her opponent, none 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:09.760 of the moves that are made in a game are 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.079 truly random. They are the result of choices made by 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.160 the players. Now, on the flip side of that is 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.480 a game like candy Land. Now there's no strategy, and 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.720 candy Land all moves are dictated by a deck of 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.120 cards which acts sort of like a random number generator, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.320 and drawing a card reveals a color which tells the 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.880 respective player where to move his or her player piece. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.720 The outcome of the game is completely up to the 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.880 whims of chance, which is why my niece can beat 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.000 me every single time. It's not really true. My niece 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:42.440 is three years old. She can also beat me in 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.240 trivial pursuit. I am not proud of this fact, but 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:46.840 she is a very intelligent young lady. Candy Land is 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.120 a game meant to entertain young kids and teach them 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.680 about rules. It's kind of a gateway game, if you will. Now, 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:57.240 many games combine elements of both strategy and random chance. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.400 If one wishes to get philosophical, you can say, well, 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:04.160 that's a lot like life, right. Some people do really 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:09.120 well in life despite facing adversity because they make incredibly 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.040 wise decisions. So while chance might be against them, they 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.160 are capable of making very good decisions and coming out 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.640 on top. Anyway, other people might do really well in 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.600 life despite their foolish choices, just because they happen to 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.960 be very lucky. Or you know, if you're a Jedi who, 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.920 in your experience does not believe in luck, maybe you 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.640 would just say coincidence just happens to favor that person 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.880 by chance alone. For many games, you need a really 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.840 good balance of luck and skill to do well. Consistently, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.200 which can be both really exhilarating and also very frustrating. 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.680 If you were an expert poker player, then you might 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.400 get frustrated that occasionally you just get some bad beats, 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.719 like you just get some bad hands, and the person 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:53.719 that you're playing against get some really good hands, And 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.680 it may be that you're a much better poker player 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.839 than they are, and yet they're still winning. That's part 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:02.080 of the game. Now, there are some broad categories of 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.920 board games out there, including some card games, and they 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.520 have varying emphasis on luck versus skill, and I thought 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.479 it might be helpful to kind of do a rundown 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.520 on the different types of games that are out there 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.800 and give some examples of each for the purposes of 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:23.279 this entire conversation. Now, first we have the racing games 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.919 or the classic board games genre, and these are the 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.120 games that rely heavily on chance. So, like Candy land 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.320 I just mentioned, typically the goal in this game is 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.680 to be the first player to reach a finish line 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.200 of some kind. But nearly all the moves you make 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.159 in these sort of games are dependent upon some sort 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.440 of random event, So that might be rolling a die 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.960 or a pair of dice, or maybe more depending on 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.400 the game, or spinning a dial or drawing a card, 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.240 or you know, that little popper that you might have 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.839 in some games. Other games that fall into this category 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.160 include stuff like snakes and ladders or shoots and ladders 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:04.840 if you prefer or sorry uh. Those games are largely 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.480 social in nature. The value of the game mostly comes 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.680 from the interactions you have with the people around you, 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.920 and they tend to be kind of like family bonding experiences. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.280 But there's not a whole lot of satisfaction in the 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.360 game itself, because again it's mostly due to random chance. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.360 There's not really anything you can do to improve your 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.839 chances of winning in those type type of games. On 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:28.839 the flip side of that would be the abstract strategy games. Now, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.760 these are the games in which you are playing some 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.839 form of strategic combat in an abstract way against your opponent. 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.960 Checkers and chess both fall into that category. Your goal 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.360 is to outthink and outmaneuver your opponent. Random elements are 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.960 almost always absent or reduced to the most minor factor 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.719 in these types of games. These are also some of 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.960 the games that have been solved by computers. Not all 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.480 of them have, but Checkers, for example, has been solved. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.560 And when we say solved, we mean that the we 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.400 have worked out algorithms that prove that you can either 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.760 always win or always come to a draw based upon 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.080 when you play if you assume that both players in 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.560 a game are playing perfectly. So, for example, and Connect four, 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.360 if you are the first person to play a move, 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:21.360 and you and your opponent both play absolutely perfectly, you're 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.680 gonna win, right like, That's just the way it works. 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.320 Tic tac toe. If you both play perfectly, you're gonna 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:31.920 draw every time. This is, of course, again assuming perfect play. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.960 Not every game has a solution, or at least not 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.720 every game have we worked out the solution. Some games, 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.880 like chess are very complicated, and we may find out 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.840 that there is no solution, or that it's might may 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:47.960 just take a really long time before we're ever able 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.800 to come up with It gets pretty complicated with games 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.840 where you've got pieces that can move and reverse their 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.520 movements and not just move in one direction. Then we 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:01.040 have the euros style games. Sometimes these are called German 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.760 board games. These games are slightly less abstract than the 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.800 previous category, but not as detailed or grand as strategy games. 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.760 Which I'll describe in a little bit. These games have 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.840 really strong themes that find their way into game mechanics. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.880 So whereas you might say candy Land, the theme is 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.400 very much it's it's very surface level. There's not really 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.920 anything about the candy Land game that translates into game 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.120 mechanics for the most part. Same thing with Sorry. But 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.280 there are other games in the in the eurostyle where 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.040 the theme is very much tied in with the game 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.760 mechanics and the way the game unfolds. There's typically some 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.960 kind of resource management factored into those types of games, 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.920 and typically players are in the game for the duration 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.160 of play. You don't typically see German board games or 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:54.320 eurostyle games that knock players out before the end of 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.240 the game comes about. Everyone's in it to win it 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.240 all the way to the end, and often there are 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.800 some sort of score ring elements that will allow someone 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.160 to win even if they appeared to be lagging behind 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.200 the others. You might have some secret elements to it 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.360 where you have a goal and if you reach that 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.840 goal you get bonus points, which means you could end 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.960 up winning the game. When it looked like from just 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.000 a casual glance you were in the last place. There's 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.480 a really strong emphasis on eurostyle games on strategy, so 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.679 random elements are typically limited to where resources might be 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.160 found or other minor elements in the game, but most 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.520 game events are dependent upon the choices of the players 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.320 in the game, and those games also frequently allow players 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:39.280 to make temporary alliances as the game progresses. The games 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:44.120 in this category include things like Settlers of Catan or Carcassone. 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:49.160 Those are two very popular German board game or eurostyle 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.079 game out there, so if you're familiar with either of those, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.320 you know what I'm talking about. Strategy games take elements 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.840 both from abstract strategy games like Chess and eurostyle games 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.960 like Settlers of Catan, and then combine them into really deep, rich, 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.320 and often really complicated games. Sometimes their war games are 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.079 military based. These tend to be gamers games, meaning they 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:16.079 frequently have more complicated game mechanics that appeal to experienced 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.600 gamers and require a lot more explanation or maybe multiple 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.000 play throughs to really gain a good sense of how 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.840 the rules work. The board game rules and narrative often 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.360 drive the action, and they might include both competitive and 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.559 cooperative play, often within the same play session, and there 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.720 can be metal level playing in this game. In other words, 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.440 the game isn't just happening on the board, it's also 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:44.679 happening within the interactions between players outside of the confines 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.440 of the game itself. You might find yourself actively trying 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.360 to deceive other players as to the relative strength of 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.480 your position. So you might be bluffing, trying to make 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.320 them think that you're in a better position than you 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.559 really are, or you could be doing the opposite. You 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.800 could be downplaying or position in order to lull them 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.280 into a false sense of security, and then you spring 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.160 the trap and they go all Admiral Akbar on you. 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.400 These games also can take a really long time, sometimes 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.760 several hours for a play session, depending on how complicated 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.760 game is. Risk Is a style of this Civilization board game, 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.200 is the style of this a Boal Star Galactica, and 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.920 also the thing which we'll be talking about later. All 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.080 of these kind of fall into this very large category, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.640 though obviously each of those games has very different elements 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.880 from the others, So while they all kind of belong 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.040 to the same category, that doesn't mean they're game mechanics 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:39.760 are necessarily similar. They're not. They're also card based games. 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.920 There are several different categories of these. Strategy based card 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.320 games still involve an element of luck, since you can't 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.679 predict which cards are going to end up in your hand. 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.400 You typically in these games will draw a certain number 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.280 of cards from a deck. Players usually play from the 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.840 same pool of cards, so it's not like you have 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.000 your own deck and they have their's. You're both playing 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.800 from the same one. These games also tend to have 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.160 a theme, though the extent to which that theme plays 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.080 a part in gameplay will vary. Some examples in this 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:11.280 include Munchkin or Seven Wonders. Then you've got deck building games, 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.800 in which players build out a deck from a common 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.400 pool of cards. Players may have to do something in 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.360 order to earn cards while building their respective decks, such 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.800 as purchasing individual cards within the game itself, using some 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.640 sort of end game currency not real money, or by 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:33.000 completing certain in game tasks. Games like Dominion and Corriers 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.640 fall into this category. Then you've got trading card games. 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.679 These are the games in which players build their individual 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.319 decks based on purchasing packs of cards. Typically, in these 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.400 style of games, you would buy a starter deck that 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.240 would have a good distribution of basic cards and then 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.560 you would supplement that with booster packs. So you go 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.680 out and buy booster packs to add more variety to 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.440 your cards and add more capabilities. Some of those booster 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.080 packs could contain particularly rare or powerful cards, and then 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.360 players would go up against each other using these cards, 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.719 kind of dueling one another in an attempt to win 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.000 a match, and typically that involves each player having an 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.760 assigned number of points kind of like health points or 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.400 hit points, and the other players trying to whittle that 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.120 down to zero. So the first player to hit zero 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.440 is out. So if you knock your opponent down to 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.160 zero and they're out, then you win. Games like Magic 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.320 the Gathering or Hearthstone, which is a video game version 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.760 of that style of card game, fall into that category. 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.720 And there are more social games out there. These games 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.199 are where your Apples to Apples or Cards against Humanity 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.520 will fall a million dollars. But is another social game 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.160 that's out there. And there are games that rely upon 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.600 expressions of creativity, such as pictionary or cranium. And then 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.040 there are games that rely heavily upon knowledge, whether it's 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.840 general or specific, like Trivial Pursuit or one of the 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.800 many themed trivia games that are out there, and that's 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.680 just a quick rundown the basic types of board game 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.760 and card games out there, excluding the more traditional card 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.680 games like poker or whist or bridge and things like that. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.760 Each game requires designers to make very careful decisions to 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.480 ensure that the gameplay is fun and challenging without being 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.120 too frustrating or obtuse. And this is actually a pretty 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.840 tricky path to follow. Sometimes you just don't know if 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.160 a game mechanic is going to work until you actually 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.080 put players into the situation and see how it unfolds. 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.760 If the players seem confused about the mechanic or they 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.040 failed to use it properly, it could be an indication 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.960 that you need to tweak that element so that it's 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.600 more easily understood. Now, most games require a lot of 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.360 workshopping or play testing to get right. In fact, the 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.560 game of chess was created over the course of centuries. 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.240 It seems apparent that the early form of the game 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.440 arose along the Silk Road. And I'm talking about the 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.600 real silk Road, not the black market on the deep web. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.880 I'm talking about the pathways that merchants traveled more than 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.840 a thousand years ago when they were trading between cities, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.560 so chess likely evolved from similar games that were played 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.800 in China, India, and Persia among other players places. So 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.320 players would bring up boards and pieces and incorporate rules 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.200 from their different cultures and their different travels into a 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.320 single game, and so the game of chess evolved over 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.720 time this way. It wasn't until the Renaissance that the 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.560 modern rules of chess really began to emerge. My point 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:28.760 here is that even games like chess went through a 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.080 lot of play testing, so this is not new now. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.080 To get a better handle on what it's like designing 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.080 a game, I spoke with Jay Shaw and Joe Van 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.480 wetter Ing of Mando about making a game adaptation of 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.120 the nineteen two John Carpenter film The Thing. We'll listen 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.800 to that interview right after the short break. To thank 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:57.800 our sponsor, I'm really fortunate today to be joined by 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.000 a couple of guys over at Mondo really worked on 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.360 this game to make it what it was. And so, gentlemen, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.640 if you would please introduce yourselves to the throngs of 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.960 listeners of tech stuff and uh and let us know 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.920 what it was that you did in regards to developing 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.800 this game. All right, Joe, you go first. Yeah. Sure. 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:23.400 My name's Joe Van Lettering and I'm the game designer. 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.840 There you go, keep it sweet. Uh. My name is 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.960 Jay Shaw. I'm a creative director at Mondo, and I 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:37.120 helped Joe. I like it. I like it. You know, 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.200 it's great because it's it's an accurate description of what 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.480 you've done, and yet gives us very little information to 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.040 go on at the very beginning, very much like being 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.280 in the thing, right, we were going to dig down 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.720 and discover in this process. And actually my first question 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.320 before we get into the mechanics of the game and 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.360 the development of the game is it's just the question 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.440 of why why John Carpenter's the thing? What was it? They? Where? 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.679 When did that idea kind of come into being about 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:14.199 developing a game based upon this classic film, which, by 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.360 the way, I actually I love that movie, so I'm 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.360 not being at all facetious here. Oh yeah, everybody loves it. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.359 Um Yeah, it was interesting. I I started thinking about 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.040 doing board games of Mondo a few years ago and 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.960 just really kind of a as a fan of board 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.600 games type of thing where I said, man, it would 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.560 be really cool if we did a board game. That'd 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.159 be nice. We have no idea how to make a 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.320 board game, but it would be cool to do. And 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.639 that conversation just kept coming up at the office. It 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.560 kept coming up in phone calls and creative meetings and 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.080 just saying, yeah, I wish we did a board game. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.600 I wish we did a board game. And finally it 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.240 went from which we did a board game too, we 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.000 should do a board game. Let's find somebody who knows 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.280 how to do it. Um. So, you know, the thing 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.520 was honestly the first game that I thought of, because 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.840 the movie is perfect for it. It's a it's a 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.400 it's a confined area much like a board. You've got 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.480 to you know, you've got a set group of people, 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.760 You've got conditions that feel very much like a game 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.080 of sorts. You know, it already kind of felt like 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.640 it was it didn't seem like it took a lot 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.120 to get that story from movie to board. So yeah, 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.600 I've reached out to Joe and started talking to him, 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.840 and you know, I'm lucky that he design board games 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.639 for a living. So that was really the genesis of 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:33.919 it was just this should be something we should do. 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.840 Let's do it. It's really cool because, as you say, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.080 the story of the movie does lend itself to certain 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.840 game mechanics. There are certain games that that exist that 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:50.160 have some similarity to the mechanics in the thing. Uh, 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.840 you know, nothing that is a one to one certainly, 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.720 but there's there's certain ones that I kind of recognize, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.440 Like there are elements to the game were Wolf. For 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.440 some people play it as afia the idea that you're 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:05.240 playing in a group. Some people in the group are 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.960 working at counter purposes for what the rest of the 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.879 group is trying to do, and meanwhile, the rest of 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.080 the group has no idea who they can trust and 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.720 who they cannot trust. Uh. The thing actually goes a 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.680 little bit further because even if you are on the 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.320 side of the thing, if you are one of the 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.959 the the compromised characters, you don't necessarily know if anyone 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.359 else is also compromised. So it makes it makes it 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.080 a little more tricky when you're trying to figure out 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:36.000 who you're trying to sabotage. But generally speaking, this is 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.720 one of those asymmetric games where you have two groups. 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.360 Originally it'll be I assume in individual versus the rest 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.080 of the group working at cross purposes, and as the 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.080 game unfolds, that dynamic continues to change. And obviously, in 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.239 order for you to have any sort of competitiveness in 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.040 this game, that means you have to make really careful 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:02.760 decisions about what the capabilities are of one group versus 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.760 the other. So, with all of that in mind, the 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.040 idea that you've got this hidden character who's working to 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.760 try and sabotage the rest of the group, I assumed 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.000 that meant that there was a lot of experimentation during 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.760 the entire design process to get that balance right. I mean, 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:19.439 you don't want you don't want the thing to be 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.399 so easy to defeat that the game is over in 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:24.960 ten minutes. But you don't want to make it so 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.359 difficult that there's maybe only a two percent chance that 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.679 everyone's going to get out, or even that a significant 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.640 number of people are going to get out. So take 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.680 me through. Now, you've made the decision to turn the 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.640 story of the Thing into a board game, and as 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.440 you've laid out the elements of the story lend itself 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:50.120 to that, where was the next step? What we're How 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.040 did you start to lay out the process of building 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.199 the game itself? Yes, so we first of all, I 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.520 watched the movie about one hundred times and just tried 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.960 to get a feel for every single aspect of the 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.719 movie and what feels right, what what's the storyline going 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.240 to be within the game, how does that translate? And 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:17.600 then I just started with a very very simple hidden 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:19.719 hitt and identity game, you know, just kind of like 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:24.639 a pass fail that's it, almost like a Mafia or Werewolf. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.280 And then kind of took that base and brought in 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:30.919 parts from the movie, you know, brought in the outpost, 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.320 probably the flamethrower, that kind of stuff, and just kind 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.600 of built it out. And I'm going to tell you 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:41.320 right now, designing a hidden identity game is extremely tough 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.840 because I already have all the information here, right So 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.480 when I'm designing it, trying to go through a game 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.399 plan just by myself in my head, it's tough because 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:53.840 I already know all the information, that's what this game 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.960 is about. So I got a lot of help from 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.800 some co workers, some friends, lots of play testers just 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.080 to you know, see how do you play this game? 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.600 You know, what do you do at this point? So 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.800